1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 15 Jul 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 391       Contents:P Re: Facility Prefix Registration (was: Re: A tale of two macro libraries LIB vs ( Good luck to VMS engineering and support, Re: Good luck to VMS engineering and support
 locking pages  Re: locking pages  Re: locking pages  Re: locking pages 0 Re: Migration checklist (no, not away from VMS!)0 Re: Migration checklist (no, not away from VMS!) Re: MONO (.net for UNIX) Re: MONO (.net for UNIX) Re: MONO (.net for UNIX)D Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksP Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks attacksatta Re: openVMS boot problem Re: openVMS boot problem Re: openVMS boot problem Re: openVMS boot problem& Re: Show all files with empty filename& Re: Show all files with empty filename& Re: Show all files with empty filename& Re: Show all files with empty filename& Re: Show all files with empty filename& Re: Show all files with empty filename& Re: Show all files with empty filename* Re: Top Intel architect flees coop for AMD  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:31:24 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Y Subject: Re: Facility Prefix Registration (was: Re: A tale of two macro libraries LIB vs  1 Message-ID: <wYzBe.8572$6b2.738@news.cpqcorp.net>   u In article <db19uq$526$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes:   C   My request to get your T3$ registered for you on OpenVMS VAX and  E   OpenVMS Alpha has gone through, and the registration will be in the F   next cycle of registered facility prefix listings.  (My contact withD   the product registrar got along much more quickly once I found my E   mail message had gotten wedged in SMTP limbo, and cleared that up.) E   T3$ is now registered with the same contact info as was used on the -   existing 333$ facility prefix registration.   C   Would OpenVMS I64, Tru64 UNIX or HP-UX registration(s) be needed?    	--   C   For folks interested in registering facility prefixes for OpenVMS C   products, do please see the registar email contact information in    the OpenVMS FAQ.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:11:00 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Good luck to VMS engineering and support , Message-ID: <42D70D1F.CAF59040@teksavvy.com>  [ http://news.com.com/HP+gears+up+for+layoffs%2C+reorg/2100-7341_3-5788885.html?tag=nefd.lede   M By monday, the news of 15k layoffs should be public. The article does mention 2 that Hurd feels that some areas are underinvested.  M Lets hope that the VMS folks and ambassadors will not only be spared the cuts ; but will also be the focus of increased investment from HP.   7 Good luck to those ex Digits now under the HP umbrella.    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:50:10 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) 5 Subject: Re: Good luck to VMS engineering and support ( Message-ID: <db74oi$am9$2@pcls4.std.com>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:   N >Lets hope that the VMS folks and ambassadors will not only be spared the cuts< >but will also be the focus of increased investment from HP.  E Nope.  Several in VMS Engineering were whacked a couple of weeks ago.   8 >Good luck to those ex Digits now under the HP umbrella.   All three of them. :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:25:15 -0700 , From: David D Miller <ddmiller@raytheon.com> Subject: locking pagesV Message-ID: <OF9C34941A.A7A52D19-ON0725703E.0069D127-0725703E.006AAEA2@mck.us.ray.com>   Folks:  H I am reviewing a program, intended to run on VMS Alpha 7.3.  (It used to run on a VAX).  J This is a real-time program, thus memory management could be an issue.  ToH make it a non-issue, it initially performs a SYS$LKWSET and a SYS$LCKPAGI for the entire process and then a SYS$SETSWM(1).  Is this necessary or is  it overkill?  G I presume the process priority is raised, too, although I haven't found  that code yet.  / Comments, please.  Pitfalls with this approach?    dave.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:56:27 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)  Subject: Re: locking pages1 Message-ID: <LrzBe.8569$zb2.223@news.cpqcorp.net>    In article <OF9C34941A.A7A52D19-ON0725703E.0069D127-0725703E.006AAEA2@mck.us.ray.com>, David D Miller <ddmiller@raytheon.com> writes:   I :I am reviewing a program, intended to run on VMS Alpha 7.3.  (It used to  :run on a VAX).   A   As a rule, VAX processors are far slower than Alpha or Itanium  E   processors, and the programming effort needed to keep a VAX program F   running at a particular speed may not be necessary on an Alpha or anG   Itanium system -- you might find the code runs "fast enough" already,     without any particular effort.  K :This is a real-time program, thus memory management could be an issue.  To I :make it a non-issue, it initially performs a SYS$LKWSET and a SYS$LCKPAG J :for the entire process and then a SYS$SETSWM(1).  Is this necessary or is
 :it overkill?   D   What do you particularly mean by "real-time"?  That terminology isA   common -- but unfortunately very ambiguous -- in my experience. @   Better here is some idea of the required response time for theD   particular activities, and some idea of the severity of the damage!   if a response window is missed.   D   And some idea if the speed improvements likely seen with the newerB   Alpha or Itanium processors covers the application requirements,   of course.  H :I presume the process priority is raised, too, although I haven't found :that code yet.   B   Look for the $setpri, the $creprc call, or the RUN command, as a   start.  0 :Comments, please.  Pitfalls with this approach?  G   Locking the page(s) into the working set could be needed, or could be E   overkill.  Locking the page is seldom useful in my experience, save D   for very specific run-time contexts or for specific responsiveness   requirements.   D   I'll assume you are aware that Alpha and Itanium memory pages are C   substantially larger than VAX pages.  This can change the running C   memory profile, and it can also require coding changes around the F   memory page addresses passed into various calls due to the increasedE   page sizes.  (There are discussions of this in the $crmpsc calls in F   the (now archived, but still available) OpenVMS VAX to OpenVMS Alpha    porting manual, for instance.)  H   Other porting topics -- floating point, compilation differences, etc. F   -- are also in the porting manual.  It's been my experience that theD   newer compilers are a whole lot better at finding latent bugs thanE   were the older compilers, so I seriously avoid simply disabling the B   diagnostics reported by the newer compilers when porting forward
   older code.     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jul 2005 15:10:54 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: locking pages3 Message-ID: <vFiYi6OUIhoz@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <OF9C34941A.A7A52D19-ON0725703E.0069D127-0725703E.006AAEA2@mck.us.ray.com>, David D Miller <ddmiller@raytheon.com> writes:  > L > This is a real-time program, thus memory management could be an issue.  ToJ > make it a non-issue, it initially performs a SYS$LKWSET and a SYS$LCKPAGK > for the entire process and then a SYS$SETSWM(1).  Is this necessary or is  > it overkill? >   5    $LCKPAG does a $LKWSET so that is an uneeded step.   @    I've never had a realtime process swap out, but I run them atE    realtime priority higher than the swapper's priority for a reason.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:34:59 -0700 , From: David D Miller <ddmiller@raytheon.com> Subject: Re: locking pagesV Message-ID: <OF3FF6A3E9.91DCBBC0-ON0725703E.00755542-0725703E.00768F86@mck.us.ray.com>   Hoff, Keith   ) As I hoped, you give me food for thought.   I I'm just getting into this so I don't have many answers at this point.  I E gather that nominal cycle time of the application is one millisecond. J Occasional delays of one cycle are tolerable, I think.  But I have no ideaJ what a MON SYS looks like during a run.  I don't have any metrics (yet) ofF resource (CPU, memory I/O) utilization during a cycle or averaged over several cycles.   J BTW, the Alpha is some EV45 variation (a dual CPU) and the application wasI ported from VAX several years ago.  However it's still possible there are H latent problems in the port, I suppose.  The problem is, the applicationK works most of the time but occasionally goes toes up.  The work around is a 2 reboot -- which is a nasty solution in my opinion.  J For regular readers, this is an expansion of my post about a week ago.  InJ that, I was asking for help with a system crash due to a reflective memoryJ driver.  That was a very poor description of the problem (the driver isn'tD crashing the system) and now I'm trying to approach the problem more systematically.   ( I'll probably have more questions later.  " Thanks for your help and interest.   dave  H ----- Forwarded by David D Miller/RWS/Raytheon/US on 07/14/2005 02:21 PM -----   G David D Miller <ddmiller@raytheon.com> wrote on 07/14/2005 12:25:15 PM:    >  >  >  >  > Folks: > J > I am reviewing a program, intended to run on VMS Alpha 7.3.  (It used to > run on a VAX). > H > This is a real-time program, thus memory management could be an issue. ToJ > make it a non-issue, it initially performs a SYS$LKWSET and a SYS$LCKPAGK > for the entire process and then a SYS$SETSWM(1).  Is this necessary or is  > it overkill? > I > I presume the process priority is raised, too, although I haven't found  > that code yet. > 1 > Comments, please.  Pitfalls with this approach?  >  > dave.  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:43:19 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> 9 Subject: Re: Migration checklist (no, not away from VMS!) 2 Message-ID: <bnyBe.8555$z42.5930@news.cpqcorp.net>   Syltrem wrote:G > Who do I send the correction to, so that it finds its way to the next  > freeware CD? > Keith Parris, are you there?   I'm not there, I'm here. :-)  I You can reach me at firstname.lastname@hp.com or parris at encompasserve  
 <dot> org.   Thanks for the correction.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:43:22 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.com9 Subject: Re: Migration checklist (no, not away from VMS!) Q Message-ID: <OFDB0476B1.D739DC2F-ON8525703E.006C43F1-8525703E.006C8BAE@metso.com>   H Can you post the correction for those who have the code and don't want = to have to download all of it all over again, please.   E "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> wrote on 07/13/2005 04:25:09 PM:    > Good afternoon all > . > I downloaded FIXQUE.COM today and tested it.D > I found one problem in it, due to the fact that a long time ago, aC > programmer started a batch that resubmitted itself over and over, 	 resulting H > in a lot of entry creation, and since then our entry numbers are very=   large.
 > $ sh ent6 >   Entry  Jobname         Username     Blocks  Status6 >   -----  -------         --------     ------  ------8 > 1002735  POW_LIC_CNT     SYLTREM             Executing/ >          On available batch queue AXIS_KRONOS  > F > So... the check to see if column 1 of a line has a blank in it is no longer
 > working.D > I fixed the problem by checking if the 2nd or 3rd word of the line fetched 6 > from the "show que/full/all" file is "queue", as in:$ > Generic server queue MULTINET_SMTP > orC > Server queue SMTP_HELIOS, idle, on HELIOS::, mounted form DEFAULT  > H > Who do I send the correction to, so that it finds its way to the next=   > freeware CD? > Keith Parris, are you there? >  > Very useful tool.  >  > Thanks > C > "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> a =E9crit dans le message de / > news:wCFre.2336$g4.32600@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...  > > > > > "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> wrote in message5 > > news:8660a3a105060910536a43d9a8@mail.gmail.com... 8 > > On 6/9/05, Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com> wrote:D > > > >From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.504279.killspam.00c3 (Wayne Sewell)@ > > > >Subject: Re: Migration checklist (no, not away from VMS!)$ > > > >Date: 9 Jun 2005 11:06:27 CDT5 > > > >Message-ID: <JxCk4UYieSS9@tachxxsoftxxconsult> 1 > > > >From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>   > > > >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms@ > > > >Subject: Re: Migration checklist (no, not away from VMS!) > > >  > > > >>F > > > >> Another area to examine would be batch queues. If the currentH > > > >> environment is a heavy batch environment, then the moving of t= hese > jobsH > > > >> to the new environment needs to be planned as batch jobs keep = the H > > > >> physical characteristics of where they were originally submitt= ed to.  > > > > H > > > >I don't understand. Batch jobs will just start on the queues. Of=   course > > you H > > > >have to be careful about SYSGEN parameters on the new machine bu= t 
 > > basically H > > > >all should work, you only have to tune later. It's more of a pro= blem if > > you E > > > >plan to move to a significantly smaller machine but other than  that...  > > > >  > > > F > > > Here's an example.  This job is currently in a batch queue on my system,  > a 0 > > > nightly tapesys backup of important files. > > > . > > > Batch queue TAPE$HARDY, idle, on HARDY::; > > >  /BASE_PRIORITY=3D4 /JOB_LIMIT=3D1 /OWNER=3D[TAPESYS] % > > /PROTECTION=3D(S:RSMD,O:RSMD,G,W)  > > > 9 > > >  Entry  Jobname         Username             Status 9 > > >  -----  -------         --------             ------  > > >    964  SYSBAK_HOTSTUFF_1 @ > > >                         TAPESYS              Holding until
 9-JUN-2005 > > 20:30:00.00 5 > > >         Submitted  9-JUN-2005 00:05:07.30 /KEEP  > >  > H /LOG=3DLAUREL$DKB100:[TAPESYS_PRODUCTION.][SYSBAK.LOGS]SYSBAK_HOTSTUFF_= 1.LOG;@ > > >         /PARAM=3D("HOTSTUFF","1") /NOPRINT /PRIORITY=3D100 > > >         File: 8 _LAUREL$DKB100:[TAPESYS_PRODUCTION.SYSTEM]SYSBAK.BIS;776 > > >  > > > H > > > Note that the file name contains a physical device name, despite = the  > fact > > thatC > > > it was submitted using a logical name.  This is the "physical  > > characteristics D > > > of where they were originally submitted to" mentioned earlier. > > > H > > > So *if* you place the disk cloned from _LAUREL$DKB100: into the s= ame  > > relativeH > > > slot on the same relative scsi controller on the new system, then=   this	 > > batch D > > > job will work.  If the disk has a different scsi ID on the new system,  > or > > isH > > > not on the second scsi controller, the name will be different, su= ch asF > > > _LAUREL$DKC400:, and the job will fail because it can't find the command $ > > > procedure on _LAUREL$DKB100: . > > >  > >  > I =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= I =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= I =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=  =3D=3D=3D=3D  
 > > =3D=3D=3D > > > > Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738 > > wayne@tachysoft.com > > > > http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html > > >  > >  > I =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= I =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= I =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=  =3D=3D=3D=3D  
 > > =3D=3D=3D H > > > Jake Blues:"You traded the Caddy for a microphone? ...... Okay, I=  can > buy 
 > > that." > > > H > > >> Your point is well taken-- just about the only time I believe in=   using H > > >> physical device names is in SYLOGICALS.COM, although there may b= e H > > >> application-specific exceptions to the general rule, but if and = only- > > >> if a logical absolutely can't be used.  > > >>
 > > >> WWWebb  > > >> > > ! > > I take good note of that too. H > > I'm currently doing a revision of our disaster recovery plan and ha= d  > > overlooked this fact. H > > The plan was actually tested and all the applications were fine, bu= t I  > never H > > started the jobs already waiting in the queues. Will test next time= .  > > 
 > > Thanks > > Syltrem  > >  > >  >  >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:07:57 +0200 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>! Subject: Re: MONO (.net for UNIX) < Message-ID: <42d6a9f6$0$24573$edfadb0f@dread16.news.tele.dk>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:+ > In article <42D68F45.1090001@vajhoej.dk>, ( > 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: >>Bill Gunshannon wrote:, >>>In article <42D60EF9.9030503@vajhoej.dk>,) >>>	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: 2 >>>>Both Java and .NET are very easy to decompile. >>> E >>>Back to source?  Or to some human readable form of the Byte Codes?  >>4 >>Back to rater nice looking Java or C# source code. > D > I see, but not necessarily back to the original source.  OK, I can > buy that.   5 Comments are gone. Names of local variables are gone.    Most of the rest is there.  F >>>I can't see how they would be any more de-compilable than any other >>>language/program. >>8 >>Because Java byte code and MSIL is relative high level" >>and contains a lot of meta data. > , > I see, P-machine with added innefficiency.  - Actually both Java and .NET runs rather fast.   2 Remember that the optimizer is not in the compiler but in the virtual machine.   6 >>>>That is more or less required by the functionality >>>>they provide.  >>> I >>>Why?  The Byte Code is machine language and the VM is a pseudo-machine F >>>that runs it.  Other than an added layer of abstraction intended to@ >>>hide the real hardware, how is it different from native code? >>	 >>A lot !  >>B >>It is not in any way comparable to an .OBJ file. It is more like) >>a combination of the .H and .OBJ files.  >>: >>You can take a Java .class/.jar file or a .NET .dll file> >>and have your class inherit from a class in it. It obviously= >>requires necesarry information about class to be present in  >>.class/.jar/.dll.  >>B >>You can both in Java and in .NET get a object reference (basiclyA >>a void*) and via reflection determine class, methods, values of ? >>fields etc.. It requires even more information to be present.  > C > So, if all this information is required and contained in the part @ > you distribute, how does this effect a business distributing aA > product?  Seems anyone who get their hands on it would have all A > the source and could pretty much eliminate the need to ever buy  > more than copy.    It is not a general problem.  4 Most software pirates just copy the binaries without1 ever dreaming about reverse engineering the code.   6 I do not belive DEC was ever that worried about people, stealing from microfiche/CD source listings.  0 I can be a serious problem in specific situation' with sensitive algorithms or passwords.   4 Various techniques are used: obfuscation (rename all8 the names to meaningless names), convert to real native, load native module etc.etc..   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jul 2005 23:43:30 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com ! Subject: Re: MONO (.net for UNIX) , Message-ID: <db6tb201jkj@enews2.newsguy.com>  & Main, Kerry <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote:B > Just curious, but what kind of success has MONO had running .NetH > applications on UNIX? How easy is to actually develop in .Net and thenA > move application to UNIX for production? What about performance  > concerns?   K We're running one critical app on Linux under Mono rather than Windows 2003 J because we needed a more reliable platform.  It was developed using VisualE Studio, and since being moved to Linux it has been far more reliabe..    	Zane    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:08:59 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>! Subject: Re: MONO (.net for UNIX) , Message-ID: <%UEBe.29576$ao6.18234@trnddc05>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:- > In article <42D5BBE5.3B51EF73@comcast.net>, 7 > 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >  >>Chuck Chopp wrote: >> >>>Main, Kerry wrote:  >>>  >>> F >>>>Does Mono provide this capability i.e. develop in traditional .NetJ >>>>environment and then allow the run times to be copied / run in QA/Prod >>>>UNIX environments? >>> & >>>In a nutshell, the answer is "yes". >>> I >>>Microsoft's .NET application platform is nothing more than a series of I >>>language compilers all generating code for a common back-end - the CLR N >>>[Common Language Run-time].  The CLR is Microsoft's answer to Sun's JVM forO >>>Java.  As with Java, you develop once and then deploy the byte-code compiler O >>>output to other systems on which a virtual machine of some sort will process K >>>the byte-code and execute the instructions it contains.  MONO is nothing K >>>more than a port of the .NET CLR over to Unix/Linux platforms.  Once you O >>>have a working CLR that provides all of the underpinnings necessary for .NET G >>>apps to be executed, you can then deploy those .NET apps over to any ' >>>platform on which the CLR functions.  >>5 >>Why does that sound like "BASIC Plus" for Windows?   >  > E > Actually, as I have been telling people around here ever since they D > jumped on the JAVA bandwagon, it's just the UCSD P-machine conceptF > re-heated and served as leftovers.  Not a bad thing, just not nearlyB > as innovative as the JAVA advocates would have everyone believe. >  > I >>                                                    ...or semi-compiled G >>interpretive languages like "SIBOL" (a DIBOL emulator for UN*X that I ! >>once saw back in the mid-80's)?  >>J >>The BASIC Plus "object" code was easily de-compilable, thus allowing for% >>source changes and re"compilation".  >  > F > I wasn't so sure it was "compiled" really.  I thought it was basiclyK > syntax checked and tokenized so that all that was left to the interpretor K > was execution.  Otherwise, there really is no way to de-compile a program K > as more than one construct can generate the same object code (at least in 0 > any kind of a reasonable inteligent compiler). >   F Most BASIC interpreters work the way you describe but BASIC+ is a trueE push/pop compiler, just like UCSD Pascal.  In fact, I heard once many D years ago (no idea if this is true) that UCSD Pascal started life asD a Pascal front-end to the BASIC Plus RTS, i.e. it generated the sameA push/pop code as BASIC+, so the implementers could concentrate on > PASCAL side of things and not have to worry too much about the
 execution.  @ No decompiler can recover the original source code.  The best it> can do is to create a logically equivalent source.  Aside from? trivial differences in whitespace or local variable names, many < compilers (even BASIC Plus) do trivial optimizations such asF reducing parentheses in arithmetic expressions, constant substitution,H etc. and more complex optimizations are irreversible, such as extractingD invariant expressions from loops.  (You can't tell by looking at theD compiled code whether the programmer did it or the compiler did it.)   > I >>>This doesn't address issues of performance & funtionality, nor is it a I >>>comparison or discussion of the relative merits of J2EE vs. .NET, it's N >>>simply a statement of how the bugger works.  It's just Microsoft's clone ofN >>>Java & the JVM created out of an unwillingness to license Java from Sun andK >>>Microsoft's inability to not be in the driver's seat in terms of how the ( >>>development of Java itself continues. >>F >>...thus allowing M$ to dontinue to dictate de-facto (most people sayD >>"industry") standards unilaterally without going through the usual- >>channels (the recognized standards bodies).  >> >  > H > Which is different from JAVA (proprietary to SUN and not controlled byI > any standards body, not that I place high value on that concept anyway)  > how? >  > bill >      --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:20:49 -0600 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks . Message-ID: <RGABe.33$ZK4.735@news.uswest.net>   > I > My original question really was whether modern higher efficiency engine L > technology and higher gearing results in an optimum speed greater than the9 > arbitrary 55 mph. The question still stands unanswered.  >  > Dr. Dweeb  >   
 Reality Check   J My 2002 Pontiac Montana AWD gets it's best mpg at 47-52 mph on flat groundH with no wind.  This is empirical from watching the overhead instant fuelL economy reading.  However, driving any distance in the western United StatesJ at this speed is fatal - you fall asleep at the wheel and kill yourself inF the resulting crash.  The reality is that given the same environmentalI conditions (flat road & no wind, for instance) 70 mph is only 1 mpg lower L than 50 mph.  Going over 75 really starts to gulp gas as the wind resistance starts to really climb.   K My 1990 Pontiac Transport's most efficient speed was around 50 mph as well.   
 Mike Ober.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jul 2005 15:10:17 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks B Message-ID: <1121379017.929990.14050@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   Michael D. Ober wrote: > > K > > My original question really was whether modern higher efficiency engine N > > technology and higher gearing results in an optimum speed greater than the; > > arbitrary 55 mph. The question still stands unanswered.  > > 
 > > Dr. Dweeb     2   http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/driveHabits.shtml    F I don't know how the curve was obtained, but it is *an* answer to your	 question.      > Reality Check  > L > My 2002 Pontiac Montana AWD gets it's best mpg at 47-52 mph on flat groundJ > with no wind.  This is empirical from watching the overhead instant fuelN > economy reading.  However, driving any distance in the western United StatesL > at this speed is fatal - you fall asleep at the wheel and kill yourself inH > the resulting crash.  The reality is that given the same environmentalK > conditions (flat road & no wind, for instance) 70 mph is only 1 mpg lower N > than 50 mph.  Going over 75 really starts to gulp gas as the wind resistance > starts to really climb.  > M > My 1990 Pontiac Transport's most efficient speed was around 50 mph as well.  >  > Mike Ober.    A Interesting. Do you know how accurate your "overhead instant fuel E economy reading" actually is? If it's actually directly measuring the B rate of gas coming out of the fuel injectors it has a chance to beG reasonably accurate. If it's just measuing engine vacuum, I'd expect it  to be only approximate.    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jul 2005 15:32:45 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks B Message-ID: <1121380365.189571.87670@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   Dr. Dweeb wrote:7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message 9 > news:OM2dnarJs7f-2EvfRVn-rQ@metrocastcablevision.com...  > > AEF wrote: [...] L > Thank you for that demonstration of the length of your male appendage.  WeL > are all suitably impressed (or at least I am) and our collective knowledge  > is thus enriched by your post.  B Thanks for the warning for me to not waste any time reading Bill's reply!  J > IIRC, my response to the previous poster related to the non-linearity ofJ > engine performance metrics and why they negate the logic of the previousJ > post.  This may have been lost in translation or perhaps rather brevity.L > Max BHP and max Torque are just 2 of many engine performance metrics.  The6 > one that started this miserable side thread was mpg. > N > However, we still have no clue as to whether the value is 10 or 100 mph, and    E I posted a reference twice that purports to answer this. I don't know 8 how the curve was determined, but here it is again FWIW:  2   http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/driveHabits.shtml    K > apparently neither do you - after the espousal of all that knowledge, you M > make a guess.  At STP, with known value for rolling friction (and any other M > constants I fail to take into account here) it is a *calculable* problem to M > determine the most efficient (measured in mpg) speed (ie. engine speed in a M > given gear) for any given vehicle. This may be conincident with the maximum N > engine efficiency point, or not. EMS's are rather good at providing the sortN > of information necessary for this calculation, and I would almost be willingM > to bet that every manufacturer of every car knows the exact value for every M > model.  In fact, one of the the EMS tasks is in fact optimising this value. G > I would also guess that the values for modern cars are near enough to L > *exactly* the federally mandated speeds at which fuel economy metrics mustH > be reported.  They would be if I was the head of engineering for GM orL > whoever. I am not sure what these values are off the top of my head, but I" > bet 55mph is not one of them :-) > I > My little fuel injected Toyota with engine electronics up the ying-yang M > tools along at 2500 rpm in overdrive at around 100kmh with no stress.  Much M > lower down the rev range and its back a gear.  That is quite different from L > my 1970s Weber toting quad cam V6 sports car, which is quite unhappy underJ > 3000 rpm in any gear.  The 70's v. the 00's (?).  Some progress has been! > made, as you rightly point out.  > I > My original question really was whether modern higher efficiency engine L > technology and higher gearing results in an optimum speed greater than the9 > arbitrary 55 mph. The question still stands unanswered.   A It seems to me that it will depend greatly on the car. If you are ? building a sports car, like a Ferrari, mileage probably isn't a G consideration much at all. If you want the best EPA mileage rating, you C optimize for that, regardless of what the optimum speed for mileage E (windows open or closed? A/C on? overdrive available?). If you want a E car that gets best overall mileage for "normal driving", you optimize 	 for that.   G In any case, the engine must do more work to overcome air resistance as F speed increases. So if you increase gas-into-kinetic-energy efficiencyD enough at high speeds to up the optimum speed, you're not adding theF same increase in efficiency at the lower speeds. Don't you want better mileage at all speeds?   >  > Dr. Dweeb  > 
 > > - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:54:09 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com Y Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks attacksatta - Message-ID: <87pstlhucu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   & "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  D > Now just how accurate is this fuel consumption meter? I doubt it'sE > accurate enough for this purpose. It could be as simple as a vacuum  > gauge.  @ Runs off the EFI pulses, Bosch give a figure of about +-3% for aA standard uncalibrated one, given that no one gets marketroided or  other brain fade.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:52:10 -0400 $ From: "Chris" <an.other@not_here.ca>! Subject: Re: openVMS boot problem : Message-ID: <cDxBe.11252$qg1.925572@news20.bellglobal.com>  E I have seen this symptom if the SCSI is improperly terminated (or not H terminated at all)  Not familiar with AS255, but if there is an externalJ SCSI connector, make sure it has the proper terminator (we were told by HPD Service that some machines of that vintage are fussy about the RIGHT terminator)   F "Z" <Z@no.spam> wrote in message news:FzvBe.11447$rX7.3853@fe06.lga...
 > Emil wrote:  > > Hello everybody,G > > I have a problem with DEC Alpha station 255 233MHz, namely it won't E > > boot. I'm complete newbe to VMS and I do not know what to do. The K > > computer was working some time ago and it was not used since than, so I * > > have no idea what could have happened.. > > Here is how it works (or rather does not):K > > When I turn it on it stops on a clear blue screen with blinking cursor, 1 > > after I press a key the prompt shows up ">>>" ( > > I press "b" for boot and I get this: > > " > > (boot dka0.0.0.6.0 -flags 0,0)- > > block 0 of dka0.... is a valid boot block $ > > reading 1004 blocks from dka0... > > bootstrap code read in1 > > base=1f2000, image_start=0, image_bytes=7d800  > > initializing HWRPB at 2000% > > initializing page table at 1e4000  > > initializing machine state' > > setting affinity to the primary CPU  > > jumping to bootstrap code  > > * > > ...and that's it nothing more happens. > J > Hmmm ... are you sure (eg: listen for activity on the system disk) or is0 > it that nothing more is written to the screen? > H > Have you tried  SET CONSOLE SERIAL/GRAPHICS  (for whichever one you're > using)  from the > prompt?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:04:13 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) ! Subject: Re: openVMS boot problem 2 Message-ID: <NGyBe.8558$C42.1511@news.cpqcorp.net>  a In article <cDxBe.11252$qg1.925572@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Chris" <an.other@not_here.ca> writes:    [...]   H   Check and reseat the boards and the cables, check the SCSI for proper J   termination, consider an upgrade to current V7.0 SRM firmware, use John F   Reagan's full-on-diagnostics bootstrap command (boot -flags 0,30000)G   and definitely re-install OpenVMS Alpha and the products and licenses /   from the hobbyist OpenVMS Alpha distribution.   E   Existing systems and OpenVMS installations tend to be customized in E   odd and unexpected ways, and are accordingly not the most desirable C   environments for a new OpenVMS system manager to operate within.  E   Best to have a mostly-normal configuration.  (Some existing OpenVMS A   installations are minimally/sanely configured, while some other B   configurations I have seen are extremely weird.  Are you feeling   lucky? :-)  B   It's quite possible for a system disk that's had its constituentE   files deleted -- deleted, but not erased -- to find and to load the    primary bootstrap, too, FWIW.   H   The AlphaStation 255 series typically requires OpenVMS Alpha V6.2-1H2,   V6.2-1H3, or V7.1 or later.   D   Check for supported devices, too -- you're seeing output on a blueD   background, which implies at least a partially-functional graphicsA   controller.  (Unsupported graphics controllers are a notorious  B   cause of problems, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.)D   Check for other supported devices, particularly (in this case) theB   DKA0: disk.  (The output from the SRM console can often tell you(   details of the specific device, FWIW.)  E   Don't assume that because SRM reports the device that the device is E   fully functional -- SRM doesn't particularly exercise most devices.      Manuals and such are here:L   http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/workstations/retired/a255series.html   V7.0 firmware is here:C   ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/archive/astn255.html   I   There are "interesting" requirements around the half-flash systems such E   as this one, and there are details and pointers in the OpenVMS FAQ. "   http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq      N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:26:54 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>! Subject: Re: openVMS boot problem + Message-ID: <42D702CE.91F13A52@comcast.net>    Emil wrote:  >  > Hello everybody,E > I have a problem with DEC Alpha station 255 233MHz, namely it won't C > boot. I'm complete newbe to VMS and I do not know what to do. The I > computer was working some time ago and it was not used since than, so I ( > have no idea what could have happened., > Here is how it works (or rather does not):I > When I turn it on it stops on a clear blue screen with blinking cursor, / > after I press a key the prompt shows up ">>>" & > I press "b" for boot and I get this: >   > (boot dka0.0.0.6.0 -flags 0,0)+ > block 0 of dka0.... is a valid boot block " > reading 1004 blocks from dka0... > bootstrap code read in/ > base=1f2000, image_start=0, image_bytes=7d800  > initializing HWRPB at 2000# > initializing page table at 1e4000  > initializing machine state% > setting affinity to the primary CPU  > jumping to bootstrap code  > ( > ...and that's it nothing more happens. > E > I'm pretty sure (not 100%) there is openVMS v.6... installed on the J > machine. I tried show config at the prompt and here is the config, maybe$ > it tells you something about that: >  > SRM Console v6.0-943! > Show_arc: ARC console not found 2 > PALcode: VMSPALcode V5.53-5, OSF PALcode V1.46-1 > Serial Rom: V1.11  > Diag Rom V1.5 5 > ...and than processor, memory, PCI Bus, ISA devices  > H > does anyone have an idea what can I do to check what's wrong and can I" > fix it with your help, possibly.   I think "Z" is right on target:   ( At the console prompt, try this command:   >>> show console  D If the response is "graphics", and you are using a terminal on COM1, then issue these commands:   >>> set console serial >>> init   .... and try booting again.   B If the response to "show console" is "serial", and you are using aE keyboard and monitor conected directly to the Alpha, then issue these 	 commands:    >>> set console graphics >>> init   .... and try booting again.   G If the motherboard battery has failed, these settings might not "stick"  if you power-cycle the machine.   C Hope this helps. Did this to myself a while back, once at work, and H again within a couple days trying startup my "Jensen". VMS was promptingG for the date/time on the source I *WASN'T* looking at! So, naturally, I , saw what you saw, and I thought it was hung.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:03:18 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> ! Subject: Re: openVMS boot problem & Message-ID: <GPEBe.37$IC3.18@fe06.lga>   David J Dachtera wrote: ! > I think "Z" is right on target:   H I've been bitten by that one myself ... and c.o.v was my lifeline after G a day of head scratching ... :) the big clue is that the user gets the  ,  >>> prompt only after some keyboard input :  B >> When I turn it on it stops on a clear blue screen with blinking8 >> cursor, after I press a key the prompt shows up ">>>"   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jul 2005 13:07:57 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org/ Subject: Re: Show all files with empty filename 3 Message-ID: <3A9k1g9CNkeh@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <42D69E22.11CA55C9@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:! > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: D >> The presence of a blank file extension is denoted by the presence >> of the dot. >>  M >> The presence of a blank file version (interpreted as "most recent version) = >> is denoted by the presence of a semicolon or a second dot.  >  >  > I would word it differently: > K > If a file specification begins with a dot, it means that no file name was  > supplied.   B While it's true that in the ".DAT" file specification, no file was> supplied, that's hardly the only case in which no file name is	 supplied.   < The following file specifications all have blank file names:   	nodename::.	 	device:.  	device:	 	device:;  	[.temp] 	[];-1 	[].DAT; 		(The null string) ! 	node::device:[foo.][bar].TXT;5		   < One way of identifying the file name is that it's the bit ofE the file specification that's left over after you parse out the node, ) device, directory, extension and version.   N > If there is nothing between the dot and the semicolon, it means that no file > extension was supplied  I Yes, of course.  Merely having a dot doesn't mean that the file extension I is blank.  The presence of a dot followed by a semicolon or end-of-string  means that.   X > If there is nothing after the semicolon, it means that no file extension was supplied.  H Yes, of course.  Merely having a semicolon doesn't mean that the versionL is blank.  Having a semicolon immediately prior to end-of-string means that.  P > Depending on the file operation, the file system will detect which portions ofL > the file specification were not supplied and automatically apply defaults,@ > based on current directory, or previously supplied file names.   The file system won't do this.: RMS will only do this if the application designer fills in0 default file names and related file name blocks. >  > for instance:  > I > copy chocolate.pastry .cake will result in chocolate.cake being created   F Yes.  And it is SYS$SYSTEM:COPY.EXE that is filling in the appropriate? RMS control blocks to supply the related file name information.   M > So you must tell VMS that you activelly supplied a blank portion so that it E > uses that blank portion instead of thinking it was not supplied and < > automatically fill it in for you with applicable defaults.  B And RMS provides no way to do this.  (Unless, perhaps, I'm missing? one of the effects of setting "input file parse" versus "output  file parse")  B Certainly there is no available syntax within a file specification to distinguish between   	disk:[dir].dat;1  and	disk:[dir].dat;1  C where the former has a missing file name and the latter has a blank 
 file name.  8 (Yes, both file specs are identical -- that's the point)   	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jul 2005 15:05:15 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: Show all files with empty filename 3 Message-ID: <tUHaZ67odxsh@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <3A9k1g9CNkeh@eisner.encompasserve.org>, briggs@encompasserve.org writes:^ > In article <42D69E22.11CA55C9@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  O >> If there is nothing between the dot and the semicolon, it means that no file  >> extension was supplied  > K > Yes, of course.  Merely having a dot doesn't mean that the file extension K > is blank.  The presence of a dot followed by a semicolon or end-of-string 
 > means that.   H    The presence of the dot _is_ the presence of the extenstion.  The dotH    is part of the extension by definition.  A semi-colon (or dot if done>    right) is part of the version.  The name itself has no suchD    distinguishing punctuation, so there's no way to say "string withF    only punctuation" vs. "not provided" for the name, but there is for    the extension and version.    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jul 2005 13:51:05 -0700# From: "WhoDat?" <whohe@whoever.com> / Subject: Re: Show all files with empty filename C Message-ID: <1121374265.321013.183630@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > WhoDat? wrote:K > > That a file named <blank>.ext can legitimatly exist but cannot be found F > > by $dir (other but negation) is what I think he was talking about. >  > M > Another trick you can try in some circumstances if to define a logical name I > with the funny file name, and then do a directory on that logical name.     B And isn't it interesting that that works? Not having access to theD internals, I'd be interested in learning the sequence of events that make this work.    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jul 2005 14:17:27 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>/ Subject: Re: Show all files with empty filename C Message-ID: <1121375847.637482.214160@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    WhoDat? wrote: > JF Mezei wrote:  > > WhoDat? wrote:M > > > That a file named <blank>.ext can legitimatly exist but cannot be found H > > > by $dir (other but negation) is what I think he was talking about. > >  > > O > > Another trick you can try in some circumstances if to define a logical name K > > with the funny file name, and then do a directory on that logical name.  >  > D > And isn't it interesting that that works? Not having access to theF > internals, I'd be interested in learning the sequence of events that > make this work.     ' Can you please give an example? Thanks.    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jul 2005 14:53:58 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>/ Subject: Re: Show all files with empty filename C Message-ID: <1121378038.942644.134000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Rudolf Wingert wrote:  > Hello, > H > the /EXCLUDE=%* does function. But I think, that the defaulting of the > DIRECTORY command is strange.  > 2 > 	$ DIR .	 shows only files with a blank filetype0 > 	$ DIR .* shows all files within the directory > H > If  SYS$DISK:[]*.*;* where the default filespecification, why does theH > first command work correct (for me, because I get all files with blank
 > typ field)?  > ! > TIA and best regards R. Wingert        WARNING! Slight-nitpick mode:     E What I find slightly disconcerting is inconsistencies across commands # for "sticky defaults". For example,       DIR A.B;, B.C  A will give you only one version of each file. The version field is 
 "sticky". But       BACKUP A.B;, B.C   D will give you the current version of A.B but also *both* versions ofE B.C. I'm not sure but I think DIRECTORY is the only command that uses F "sticky defaults" for the version field. And if you specify a specificD version number for one file-spec, then what's propagated is not that- specific version number, but just ';' itself.    Example:   $ DIR A.B;1, B.C, A.B    Directory _DSA1:[SCRATCH.BBB]   = A.B;1                      0/3        14-JUL-2005 16:22:14.47 = B.C;3                      0/0        14-JUL-2005 16:38:37.44 = A.B;2                      0/3        14-JUL-2005 16:22:16.45    Total of 3 files, 0/6 blocks.  $   E So what I mean is that it is not ;1 that is propagated, but it is ';' D that is propagated, even if ;1 is not the highest version number for	 its file.   F There are a few other things like this that vary slightly from command to command.   D So you can't use DIRECTORY to see what another command would do with the same wildcarded file-spec.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jul 2005 15:05:46 -0700# From: "WhoDat?" <whohe@whoever.com> / Subject: Re: Show all files with empty filename C Message-ID: <1121378746.112445.104890@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   
 AEF wrote: > WhoDat? wrote: > > JF Mezei wrote:  > > > WhoDat? wrote:O > > > > That a file named <blank>.ext can legitimatly exist but cannot be found J > > > > by $dir (other but negation) is what I think he was talking about. > > >  > > > Q > > > Another trick you can try in some circumstances if to define a logical name M > > > with the funny file name, and then do a directory on that logical name.  > >  > > F > > And isn't it interesting that that works? Not having access to theH > > internals, I'd be interested in learning the sequence of events that > > make this work.  >  > ) > Can you please give an example? Thanks.   F No, because it doesn't really work in the case of <blank>.ext files if& filnam.ext files also exist, it seems.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jul 2005 14:48:10 -0700# From: "WhoDat?" <whohe@whoever.com> / Subject: Re: Show all files with empty filename C Message-ID: <1121377690.579343.107750@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Bob Koehler wrote:V > In article <3A9k1g9CNkeh@eisner.encompasserve.org>, briggs@encompasserve.org writes:` > > In article <42D69E22.11CA55C9@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Q > >> If there is nothing between the dot and the semicolon, it means that no file  > >> extension was supplied  > > M > > Yes, of course.  Merely having a dot doesn't mean that the file extension M > > is blank.  The presence of a dot followed by a semicolon or end-of-string  > > means that.  > J >    The presence of the dot _is_ the presence of the extenstion.  The dotJ >    is part of the extension by definition.  A semi-colon (or dot if done@ >    right) is part of the version.  The name itself has no suchF >    distinguishing punctuation, so there's no way to say "string withH >    only punctuation" vs. "not provided" for the name, but there is for >    the extension and version.   F This is the clearest explanation I've seen. I guess it means that eachG element of the file-spec is individually parsed against the default and A the results are recombined and operated upon. Rather than parsing E though the string and building the spec piece by piece as the element  identifiers are encountered.  F I imagine the people who put this together believed that a file with aC blank name was probably going to be pretty rare, and that's been my  experience.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:05:23 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com 3 Subject: Re: Top Intel architect flees coop for AMD - Message-ID: <87ll49htu4.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   3 Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> writes:   E > HP worked very hard for a year trying to get a successful EV79, and $ > finally had to throw in the towel.  F First time this has been mention isn't it? Don't seem to remember thisF being stated when the weasles where telling us how wonderfull the EV7z was.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.391 ************************