1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 24 Jul 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 409       Contents: Re: HP layoffs: 14,500 Re: HP layoffs: 14,500 Re: HP layoffs: 14,500 Re: HP layoffs: 14,500+ Re: Is the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program active? ) Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support ) Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support ) Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support ) Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support ) Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support ) Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:58:44 +0200 3 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>  Subject: Re: HP layoffs: 14,500 = Message-ID: <42e28554$0$67263$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Doc. wrote: G > %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, JF Mezei wrote in news:42DE91DC.80F9AF5D@teksavvy.com  >  > <snip> > F >> Fact is that the VMS group won't have control over VMS advertising,F >> the TSG will. And TSG have Windows, HP-UX, Linux to market and just; >> as in the past, they may not see the need to market VMS.  > ? > Not being one to follow JF's seriously negative attitude, I'm E > interested to see what comes out of the reshuffle and redundancies.  > : > VMS needs advertising, and I don't think there is anyoneE > participating in the newsgroup that would disageee with that.  Most D > people do not even know it still exists.  We got the recent DECnetA > article up on the front page of Slashdot, why didn't we get the @ > release of 8.2 up there?  If we genuinely have a new marketingC > structure then I'd expect us to have really upbeat press releases F > that we can use to get stuff mentioned in more mainstream technologyB > press.  If not, then it's back to the current situation which isE > "death by a thousand paper cuts".  I don't see the press picking up   I Which reminds me, read "Past Mortem" by Ben Elton, which deals with some  K interesting "deaths" not dissimilar to the "thousand paper cuts", directly   attributable to the "internet"  	 Dweeb :-)   D > on things like the Uptimes project and saying VMS has to be prettyF > good stuff.  Whilst it might let us who know about VMS be smug aboutB > reliablility the information is not getting propagated to people > outside our circle.  >  >  > Doc.     ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:54:57 -0700 + From: terry golden <terrygolden@brandx.net>  Subject: Re: HP layoffs: 14,500 , Message-ID: <dbu09g$ll5$1@madmax.keyway.net>  F I had an interesting conversion with the head chef/manager at my localF Italian restro. Noticing my HP OpenVMS shirt (yes I wear it and othersE outside it's more adverts then HP does locally), he expressed concern C about the layoffs. Like more and more of the public they don't like C the Lowest Common Denominator, minimize, moran sized, cooliesourced B world that Gates and the other elites has forced down our throats.A Specifically I asked him when he bought his computers did he just F go online and just order (remember the Dell dude you're getting a dell? ads), install any remaining software, networks, backup/recovery B and offsite data storage plan? Of course not I called company xxxxE and they sent someone out to install, setup the programs, and service F them when they break. Can you see why he's concerned about less peopleF working, maybe the fact that cpq closed the only field service centers< in SW LA leaving a nice 2+ hr ride to Irvine to get service.  E Also heard last week HP storage guy at Storage Confab near disneyland H to customer converting from OpenVMS to windoz "how often do you reboot?"F Customer "what's that? I've been here for years and haven't done one."E HP guy  "Oh you will be doing lots more of that once you switch over"        Dave Froble wrote: > Keith Parris wrote:  >  >> JF Mezei wrote: >>J >>> I hope that Ann McQuaid will fight hard to protect the VMS engineering >> >> >>F >> We've already seen her fight hard, and she has had some success in  >> doing so. >>F >> It's also encouraging to see the aims for HP's restructuring under   >> Hurd. From the press release: >>K >> "embedding sales and marketing efforts directly into the business units"  >>I >> I'm hopeful this will allow more product-focused advertising, in lieu  8 >> of  more-nebulous corporate-level brand-building ads. >  > G > Another example of the perception of VMS in the marketplace.  I just  G > returned from a client's site.  During a discussion the topic of VMS  G > came up.  Unfortunately, the topic was how soon the VMS system could  H > become a boat anchor.  The IT person said that there has been nothing E > new for VMS in years.  They're on V6.2.  I countered that V8.2 was  I > recently released and that VMS development is alive and well.  None of  K > them knew anything about developments in VMS in over 10 years.  Granted,  H > they didn't want to know about the topic, but, their perceptions were E > far from reality.  I'll restate that.  Their perceptions are their  J > reality, and that is that there is no more VMS development.  Wonder who K > to blame for that?  Some serious 'shove it down their throats' marketing   > is long overdue. > B >> "Reductions in sales positions will be minimal, so that HP can J >> continue to provide world-class service and avoid impacting customers; @ >> and there will be little change to headcount in research and J >> development, to ensure that the company remains a leader in technology  >> innovation."  >>H >> This preserves Sales and R&D. VMS Engineering is considered R&D, and  >> of course we need Sales.  >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:17:21 -0700 + From: terry golden <terrygolden@brandx.net>  Subject: Re: HP layoffs: 14,500 , Message-ID: <dbu1jg$m80$1@madmax.keyway.net>  F Your point brings up a wider problem, per Judge Jackson fiding of fact@ Mircosoft forced companies not to promote OS's that compete with? Mircosoft OS, e.g. IBM's recent settlement with softie over the ? later's attempts to force IBM not to market OS2. Now say you're A a mircosoft weenie er Mkting Manager in TSG and you get a request C to say mkt OpenVMS to Small to Midsized Bizs that have been hacked. H You got to believe the thought process is going to be "I can't advertiseC that windoz's is insecure that will just get bill threathing to cut 8 off vista from us". Just look at all the fud over Linux.  @ In a slave labor maded PC's does it make any sense for a companyA to make/resell PC's/WINTEL Servers along side of Enterprize class  servers?   JF Mezei wrote:  > Keith Parris wrote:  > E >>VMS is part of TSG. Printers are in IPG. PCs are in PSG. So a PC or 3 >>printer person can't say "No" to VMS advertising.  >  >  > 7 > Correct. But a wintel servers are enterprise aka TSG.  > M > Fact is that the VMS group won't have control over VMS advertising, the TSG M > will. And TSG have Windows, HP-UX, Linux to market and just as in the past, + > they may not see the need to market VMS.   > L > What's I'd really like to see is a statement from Ann McQuaid stating that; > marketing of VMS as widely as possible is an imperative.   > K > I have seen many from the VMS group over the years making statements that M > marketing of VMS would not yield results worth the cost of marketing, and I M > fear that the marketing malaise may not be within HP , Compaq, Digital, but  > rather with the VMS group.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:01:51 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: HP layoffs: 14,500 , Message-ID: <42E2DA6C.D15E3BA7@teksavvy.com>   terry golden wrote: B > In a slave labor maded PC's does it make any sense for a companyC > to make/resell PC's/WINTEL Servers along side of Enterprize class 
 > servers?    K Digital died because it sacrificed its own profitable products in favour of  helping microsoft make money.   L Compaq died because it sacrificed the Digital assets that it paid dearly for) in favour of helping Microsoft and Intel.   N Will HP die too because it wants to focus on unprofitable wintel crap and help$ Intel and Microsoft make the money ?  N The problem here is that HP is making corporate wide cuts  (including R&D now)K when the complaint is that it can't compete against Dell when making Wintel J stuff. It shoudl focus the cuts on the wintel crap production to make that$ product line as efficient as Dell's.  C As it stands, cutting in other departments will not make its wintel . production/distribution as efficient a Dell's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:29:36 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>4 Subject: Re: Is the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program active?+ Message-ID: <42E2B6C0.3BC7563C@comcast.net>    Mel Byrne wrote: >  > Hi,  > D > HP-Interex/DECUS Ireland signed me up 2 weeks ago and forwarded myE > subscription details to the OpenVMS Hobbyist people with the advice C > that I should wait for 1 or 2 days before trying to sign-up for a 
 > license. > G > I've been attempting to register for an OpenVMS VAX license since the A > middle of last week to no avail. The message I receive is "Your H > Membership Number is not in our database or is incorrect. Please checkE > with your Chapter to insure it is correct and they have updated us.  > Sorry for any inconvenience".  > G > I've checked with the chapter and they assure me all is in order from H > their end. I've tried to contact the hobbyist people twice through the- > website but I have not received a response.  > H > Is this delay normal and should I just continue to be patient? I would? > be grateful for any and all advice on how I ought to proceed.  >  > Thanks in advance, > Mel   G I've offerred to handle such things remotely (they're in the Dallas, TX F area; I'm near Joliet, IL) numerous times. I really wish I could help.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jul 2005 18:25:22 GMT$ From: "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com>2 Subject: Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support7 Message-ID: <Xns969CCFCB7B2AFdcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   9 %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Dave Froble wrote in news:11e4u6h55jm7604  @corp.supernews.com    <snip>  C > So fine, let the world continue on it's mad quest for stupidity.  I > There's money in helping them.  I'm all for being stupid.  I can prove  I > it.  There's 2 jet engines on my back porch, and I'm putting them on a  E > 50 MPH Ultralight aircraft this afternoon.  Not only have I joined  E > 'them', but now I'm leading them.  But at least I'll have some fun.    Two jet engines?  - "They" will have some trouble keeping up. :-)   5 Will there be photographs of this creation in action?      Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jul 2005 21:19:55 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)2 Subject: Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support* Message-ID: <42e2b47b@news.langstoeger.at>  Z In article <11e4u6h55jm7604@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:I >The last answer I got was, "Our company needs to be on just one OS, and   >that is windows."  D The right answer to this bullshit is "Since when is Windows an OS ?"   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:53:48 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 2 Subject: Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support, Message-ID: <42E2D889.E08AD190@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:H > it.  There's 2 jet engines on my back porch, and I'm putting them on aD > 50 MPH Ultralight aircraft this afternoon.  Not only have I joinedE > 'them', but now I'm leading them.  But at least I'll have some fun.     L Since your ultralight isn't very aerodynamic, make sure your jet engines areK overpowered to compensate. I hope you got at least 2 GE90s  jet engines for J your ultralight :-) :-)  Oh, and be careful when you start your engines to3 make sure the exhaust isn't aimed at your house ...     K (For those who don't know, the GE90 is the engine used in the 777 aircraft, J with the nacelles almost as wide as the fuselage of a 737 :-) It generatesL over 90,000 pounds of thrust in its early vintage and has been uprated since (I thing it now does 115,000)     M Often, folks who go from a real platform to Windows will compensate with much D more hardware to compensate for the inefficiency of windows, lack ofL clustering etc etc. And because the hardware is relatively cheap, it is easyL to justify, especially when you realise you need more horsepower well into aI project and nobody wants to admit it was a mistake to go windows for that G project, so they just pour more hardware to compensate for the problem.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:03:42 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 2 Subject: Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support, Message-ID: <42E2DADB.C1848025@teksavvy.com>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:F > The right answer to this bullshit is "Since when is Windows an OS ?"  N Olsen made a grave mistake when he underestimated Sun and then refused to even, consider wintel to be competing against VMS.  H It is wrong to have the attitude "Since when is Windows an OS". You mustN respect your competitor, especially when you competitor has 90% of the market.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:48:43 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 2 Subject: Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support0 Message-ID: <11e6060t1dhem0b@corp.supernews.com>   Doc. wrote: ; > %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Dave Froble wrote in news:11e4u6h55jm7604  > @corp.supernews.com  >  > <snip> > C >>So fine, let the world continue on it's mad quest for stupidity.  I >>There's money in helping them.  I'm all for being stupid.  I can prove  I >>it.  There's 2 jet engines on my back porch, and I'm putting them on a  E >>50 MPH Ultralight aircraft this afternoon.  Not only have I joined  E >>'them', but now I'm leading them.  But at least I'll have some fun.  >  >  > Two jet engines? > / > "They" will have some trouble keeping up. :-)  > 7 > Will there be photographs of this creation in action?   " I think something can be arranged.  G The engines are manufactured by a company in West Virginia.  They have  I multiple uses, models, target drones, and such.  Each produces 45 lbs of  H thrust.  Not really much, with the standard reciprocating engine set-up H on the Ascenders we get over 200 lbs of static thrust, so it's more for F the idea and the sound than it is for performance.  The only thing is F that a jet continues to produce constant thrust, regardless of speed, C while a prop, once it reaches a certain speed, cannot produce more  I speed.  Has to do with the speed of the screw (basically what a prop is)   through the air.  G Neat things.  About 12 inches in length, 6-7 inches in diameter.  Very  = light.  Expensive, $5,000 per engine, with a TBO of 50 hours.   E My friend Jack McCornack produced the thingies that were in the last  G James Bond movie.  Basically a set of wings that a sky diver can strap  H on.  Once free of the aircraft, the wings are used to extend the glide, D and can reach speeds near 200 MPH.  Jack thinks that with the 2 jet A engines the device can maintain level flight at 200 MPH, and fly  H formation with a slow flying F-15.  Note, he likes the notoriety of the K credits in a movie.  He thinks that the next Bond movie might use his idea.   > Stupid, still have to deploy a parachute to land.  Not for me.  C Anyway, he just left for the Oshkosh flyin with the engines and my  D 2-place training aircraft, which flew with them last year.  When he H returns in a week, I'll be flying the 'jet (under) powered ultralight', 8 I'll take some pictures, and try to get them on the web.   Are we off topic yet?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:05:52 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 2 Subject: Re: Platform Support vs. Business Support0 Message-ID: <11e6169idjh2n3a@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > H >>it.  There's 2 jet engines on my back porch, and I'm putting them on aD >>50 MPH Ultralight aircraft this afternoon.  Not only have I joinedE >>'them', but now I'm leading them.  But at least I'll have some fun.  >  >  > N > Since your ultralight isn't very aerodynamic, make sure your jet engines areM > overpowered to compensate. I hope you got at least 2 GE90s  jet engines for L > your ultralight :-) :-)  Oh, and be careful when you start your engines to5 > make sure the exhaust isn't aimed at your house ...  >  > M > (For those who don't know, the GE90 is the engine used in the 777 aircraft, L > with the nacelles almost as wide as the fuselage of a 737 :-) It generatesN > over 90,000 pounds of thrust in its early vintage and has been uprated since > (I thing it now does 115,000)  >  > O > Often, folks who go from a real platform to Windows will compensate with much F > more hardware to compensate for the inefficiency of windows, lack ofN > clustering etc etc. And because the hardware is relatively cheap, it is easyN > to justify, especially when you realise you need more horsepower well into aK > project and nobody wants to admit it was a mistake to go windows for that I > project, so they just pour more hardware to compensate for the problem.    Not always an issue.  G The customer I'm currently doing some work for is an organization that  E is mostly office automation.  A PC running Word and Excel sitting on  D each person's desk is the perfect business solution for them.  Most E people do entirely different things, so a central system is actually  C detrimental.  They have one file server and one mail server.  Most  B things are on the client systems and the server just insures that I backups and such are rather easy.  I doubt that there's much of that for   the clients.  H Since windows turns out to be good for most of their requirements, they D made the mistake of thinking that it would be the best solution for H everything.  There are a few more 'traditional' applications, (if there H truly is such a thing), and they're running on VMS.  Running quite well G on VMS.  The most important application, implemented on PDP-11 in 1985  G and moved to VMS sometime since then.  They'll freely say that it runs  H more smoothly than anything else they have.  In the next breath they'll H say that not only will there be no new VMS based applications, but that 5 they are eager to move these applications to windows.   F One consideration is that since windows was such a good thing for the D diverse office automation tasks, and these were most visable to the H company owners, there may have been a mandate from on high that windows F was so wonderful and that everything should be run on windows.  Don't D know.  The single person in charge of programming is a real windows I bigot, won't stand to hear of any shortcomings, and probably couldn't be  1 convinced by a firing squad of changing her mind.   D When I had a problem with Visual Basic she defended VB and wouldn't H consider it wrong.  So I'll ask, actually maybe take a poll.  If a real G value is placed into an integer variable, how many people would expect  G the fraction to be truncated?  I'd expect most would.  I did.  VAX/DEC  B BASIC truncates.  Well, VB rounds, and fractional parts of .5 and F greater round up.  Sure screwed with the logic from the converted VAX / Basic applications.  Sure screwed with my mind.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.409 ************************