1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 01 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 303       Contents:P Re: (",) Print This! Press [Ctrl][P] Keys To Print... >> http://www.phpbbserver. Re: ABC problem with disk  Re: ABC problem with disk C Re: Are the sys$icc_* services being replaced/rewritten for Itanium P Re: Hewlett-Packard's final PA-Risc processor offers users last stopon road to I" Re: Holy Flying Foreskins, Batman!" Re: Holy Flying Foreskins, Batman!? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID & Latest VMS BootCamp instructions forum/ Re: OpenVMS Management Station can't show disks / Re: OpenVMS Management Station can't show disks % Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation) % Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation) % Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation) % Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation)   [ECP V5.5A] Installation anomaly  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:08:33 -0400 1 From: "Chris F.A. Johnson" <cfajohnson@gmail.com> Y Subject: Re: (",) Print This! Press [Ctrl][P] Keys To Print... >> http://www.phpbbserver. ' Message-ID: <1s3vm2-i4q.ln1@rogers.com>   @ On Mon, 30 May 2005 at 21:37 GMT, brazos1289@netscape.net wrote: > Dear sir,  > ! >      Stop being such a pissant,      Stop feeding the trolls.   --  F     Chris F.A. Johnson                     <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>F     ==================================================================F     Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach, 2005, Apress7     <http://www.torfree.net/~chris/books/cfaj/ssr.html>    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:09:57 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>" Subject: Re: ABC problem with disk* Message-ID: <p17ne.31938$GN3.644@trnddc04>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > John Santos wrote: > G >>In article <4298D11C.F9109407@comcast.net>, djesys.nospam@comcast.net 	 >>says...  >> >>>John Santos wrote:  >>>  >>>>David J Dachtera wrote:  >>>> >>>>>[snip] M >>>>>If this ABC thing is malfunctioning, it hardly qualifies as either safe, F >>>>>proper or supported (by OpenVMS Engineering). If the vendor can'tH >>>>>support it either, well, does the word "pray" mean anything to you? >>>>G >>>>"Not Supported" and "Not supported by HP" are two entirely distinct 
 >>>>concepts.  >>> G >>>Agreed. And these days, finding a vendor who can provide support for H >>>their product on VMS on a par with support for their product on other' >>>platforms borders on the impossible.  >>>  >>> < >>>>Everyone is always complaining about lack of third partyJ >>>>software on VMS, and here you are saying "if it's not VMS Engineering, >>>>it's gotta go!"  >>>  >>>You understand why, yes?  >>> G >>>In case you don't (and judging from your tone you might not), let me  >>>explain.  >>> 6 >>>Consider the "chosen niche" for OpenVMS these days. >>> I >>>Now, consider whether that is a market that can tolerate anything less H >>>than 110% support. (Healthcare (life critical), finance (billions, if, >>>not trillions of dollars at stake), etc.) >>> ! >>>Are there any other questions?  >>>  >>> A >>>>There are several different things called "ABC".  The one I'm  >>>>familiar with is >>>>	 >>>>$ abc = >>>>Archive Backup Client for ADSM on OpenVMS, Version V1.2-9 < >>>>Copyright 1996-2000, Storage Solutions Specialists, Inc. >>>>E >>>>This is the VMS client for Tivoli Storage Manager (formerly IBM's 2 >>>>ADSTAR Distributed Storage Manager, aka ADSM.) >>> * >>>That's the one I heard of back in 1999. >>>  >>> A >>>>We use it at one customer site (mandated by their IT people).  >>> J >>>Some folks know better instinctively. Others have knowledge thrust uponJ >>>them by experience. Yet others will go to their financial, professionalG >>>or biological grave feeling proud that they "stood their ground" and ' >>>resisted learning to the bitter end.  >>>  >>> F >>>>Seems to work okay, given that we are pumping all the data throughB >>>>a 10Mb VAX ethernet connection (half-duplex.)  Performance was? >>>>sporadicly variable for a long time, but then they did some @ >>>>tuning on the server side and since then things have been as' >>>>fast as we could reasonably expect.  >>>>A >>>>It's an ancient version, but they are running VMS 7.1 ... ;-)  >>>>9 >>>>(Due to migrate to an Alpha cluster in a few months.)  >>>>A >>>>They have a shadowed system disk, but if they ever need to do @ >>>>a disaster recovery, they'll have to build a new temp systemF >>>>disk, minimally with VMS, TCP/IP and ADSM, recover the system diskC >>>>backup to the new real system disk, and then restore everything 	 >>>>else.  >>> H >>>Precisely why such products can't cut it in the VMS market niche: youI >>>have to restore the system before you can restore the system. Too much I >>>delay, too much man-power requirement, too many interdependencies, too  >>>many things to go wrong, ...  >>+ >>Bull.  The delay in acquiring a new site,  >  > ! > Think: DR hot-site contract"...  >  >  >>signing the rental agreement, H >>installing A/C, electricity, etc. etc., specing, locating, purchasing,G >>delivering, installing (hardware) a replacement system totally swamps ; >>the few extra hours to rebuild the system disk this way.   >  > * > ...which renders these items non-issues. >  > 
 >>It's notF >>like there is a wide-area cluster or even a hot backup system acrossB >>town.  Are they willing to live with this tradeoff?  Apparently.A >>If they weren't, they'd be running a disaster-tolerant cluster, ' >>with a remotely shadowed system disk.  >  > G > Depends. Communication link costs are still non-trivial line items on A > the budget, unless the company owns its own telecom facilities.  >  > D >>In real life, they would probably be unhappy if a catastrophe took9 >>out the system for a week, but they could live with it.  >  >  > Depends.   >  > Healthcare? NFW. >  > Financial exchanges? NFW.  >  > E >>There are vastly more systems out there for which this is true than  >>there are for which it isn't.  >  > D > Really, I thought VMS's market niche was high-availability, highly9 > secure, etc., etc. ... Perhaps we've been misninformed.  >  > * >>They have saved enormous personnel costs >  > ; > ...and suffer extensive infratsurture over-utilization...  >  >  >>by using a common, networkedD >>backup strategy.  (It's totally automated from our end.  There areD >>of course people running the backup server(s), but their effort is@ >>shared by dozens, even hundreds of systems.  15 minutes/day toB >>retrieve, mount, dismount, label, and put away 3 tapes/day (veryA >>optimistic estimate of labor required to do local tape backups) ? >>6 days/week, 52 weeks/year adds up fast.  And we can retrieve G >>anything from the last 6 months (and they do it fairly often) without C >>having to hang a tape.  This has paid for itself many times over, @ >>even if we had to rebuild a system disk the hard way once in a& >>while (which we've never had to do.) >  > I > Really? ...and how many petabytes of stored data do you shove over that H > 10Gbit Ethernet every night? How many tens of SDLT-320s do you fill up
 > every hour?  > 0 > ...or have you not been following this thread? >  > D >>>>(They make the ABC equivalent of "BACKUP/IMAGE/IGNORE=INTERLOCK"G >>>>every few days at least, and we can manually fix anything that gets G >>>>dinged (queue manager files seem most likely, users don't get added G >>>>that often, so we can go back a few versions of SYSUAF, etc. if the 9 >>>>latest backup has a bad one.)  Not ideal, but doable.  >>>>J >>>>Our app is careful about backups and snapshots things with appropriateB >>>>context so the application and database backups are all clean. >>>>; >>>>I don't know if any of this is at all useful to the OP.  >>>>G >>>>BTW, ABC's web site is at www.storserver.com.  Look for "STORServer  >>>>Clients" in the menus. >>> I >>>Well, maybe some day, some "third party vendor" will get it right: VMS J >>>is the storage+server node, not the client (how many WhineBloze serversH >>>have tens, if not hundreds of terabytes - even petabytes - of storage$ >>>attached or accessible to them?). >>> C >>>Yes, it is well known in this forum that I am not only a serious  >>>curmudgeon, but a dreamer...  >>E >>I think that most of the other systems using the ADSM backup server F >>are HP-UX and Solaris at this site, not Suns.  (There are also otherE >>VMS systems that I have nothing to do with and know nothing about.)  >>D >>Are there better backup servers?  Probably.  Would VMS make a goodB >>backup server (with some enormous automated tape library?  Sure.? >>But it sounds like you're just spouting off about your biases + >>without knowing anything at all about it.  >  > C > Hhmmm... Sounds like someone didn't do his homework! Try again...   A Are you telling me that I didn't do *my* homework?  I didn't make B the choice of backup systems.  The customer did.  I had absolutely no input to the matter.   D I could have lied and said "This isn't an acceptable backup solutionC for VMS", and that would have been just another nail in the coffin.   ? I could have told the "truth" and said "VMS is better served by @ using VMS BACKUP", but that would have made no difference.  This@ isn't necessarily true, because the tradeoff is between saving aA little time during disaster recovery vs. saving hundreds of hours B every year of manual work (mount, dismounting, labeling and filing@ tapes, keeping inventory, storage, etc. etc.) vs. dumping it all$ on the existing ADSM infrastructure.  D They wouldn't abandon their choice on my say-so.  It would have beenB ammunition for the dark side, treated as another instance of "thatE obsolete old VMS system just won't play nice with our infrastructure.  Let's get rid of it ASAP."  C N.B. We already had a perfectly good, VMS BACKUP-based tape system, ? but all they had on this system was 9-track(!) and they weren't = interested in upgrading to DLT, 8mm, or anything else.  There > was a hard-and-fast datacenter rule: "No tape backups", and it was put up or shut up.  ? Given the circumstances, anything more than a cursory glance at 7 other backup solutions would have been a waste of time.   A Whether Legato or Veritas or TAPESYS or something else would have $ been better than ADSM is irrelevant.   --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:18:22 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: ABC problem with disk+ Message-ID: <429D0CDE.9E8C64B8@comcast.net>    John Santos wrote: > [snip]C > Are you telling me that I didn't do *my* homework?  I didn't make D > the choice of backup systems.  The customer did.  I had absolutely > no input to the matter.  > F > I could have lied and said "This isn't an acceptable backup solutionE > for VMS", and that would have been just another nail in the coffin.   G The OP's current backup approach nails the lid tight on his data - once * it's gone, it's lost forever, like as not.  A > I could have told the "truth" and said "VMS is better served by B > using VMS BACKUP", but that would have made no difference.  ThisB > isn't necessarily true, because the tradeoff is between saving a& > little time during disaster recovery  > ...and having a backup that can actually be restored with high
 confidence...    > vs. saving hundreds of hoursD > every year of manual work (mount, dismounting, labeling and filingB > tapes, keeping inventory, storage, etc. etc.) vs. dumping it all& > on the existing ADSM infrastructure. > F > They wouldn't abandon their choice on my say-so.  It would have beenD > ammunition for the dark side, treated as another instance of "thatG > obsolete old VMS system just won't play nice with our infrastructure.  > Let's get rid of it ASAP." > E > N.B. We already had a perfectly good, VMS BACKUP-based tape system, A > but all they had on this system was 9-track(!) and they weren't ? > interested in upgrading to DLT, 8mm, or anything else.  There @ > was a hard-and-fast datacenter rule: "No tape backups", and it > was put up or shut up.  / $ BACKUP ddcu:/IMAGE ddcu:<dir>name.ext/SAVESET    Wonder if this would work:   $ PIPE -1 	BACKUP ddcu:/IMAGE SYS$PIPE:name.ext/SAVESET | - 8 	COPY/FTP/BINARY SYS$PIPE "a.b.c.d::\path"/USER=username  A > Given the circumstances, anything more than a cursory glance at 9 > other backup solutions would have been a waste of time.  > C > Whether Legato or Veritas or TAPESYS or something else would have & > been better than ADSM is irrelevant.  F True. Obviously, here is a customer who should *NOT* be on VMS becauseA their data is considered trivial and not vitally important to the G continuation of the business, its profitability or support of its legal  obligations.  @ I have an old '486SX-33 that I upgraded to DX4-100 with an IntelE Overdrive CPU. 1.6GB IDE drive, 32MB RAM, and even has a SoundBlaster H card with the matching CD-ROM. I even have a 20GB IDE drive which shouldF work with its upgraded BIOS. That should suit their purpose just fine.  Just tell me where to send it...   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 03:28:13 GMT  From: danco@ns2.pebble.orgL Subject: Re: Are the sys$icc_* services being replaced/rewritten for Itanium1 Message-ID: <slrnd9q6uv.178.danco@ns2.pebble.org>   ? In article <d7i1ur$g6c$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,  Richard Maher wrote:  C > I've not looked at the I64 calling standard or the optimimization N > possibilities of the upcoming interconnect hardware, BUT I've always thoughtG > this 6 argument maximum to stay in registers to be pretty restrictive   E Folks, the Itanium calling standard has EIGHT arguments in registers. E So it mistifies me how the original poster thought this could be more C restrictive than Alpha rather than less.  Besides, the rest just go / on the stack, which isn't the end of the world.    - Dan    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:23:12 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>Y Subject: Re: Hewlett-Packard's final PA-Risc processor offers users last stopon road to I + Message-ID: <429D0E00.AF276A8A@comcast.net>    Didier Morandi wrote:  >  > bob@instantwhip.com wrote:K > > Butcher said Itanium is also becoming popular on high-end OpenVMS-based  > > 
 > > machines.  > >  > > D > >>>>"The OpenVMS operating system is very important to Itanium and > >  > > runs nicely on it.<<<  > > 7 > > VMS has been running on Itanium for the past couple J > > of years. A lot of people are trying out the Itanium kit, and it looks > > pretty good."  > >  > ' > So, are we facing the rebirth of VMS? 4 > I'll try to figure that out next week in Nashua...  D Interesting allegory. The bastard son reborn to a world fraught withC uncertainty, and no guarantee of life "beyond the visible horizon".   7 Almost sounds like Pulitzer Prize winning material, eh?    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:24:57 -0400 - From: Dominique Cormann <seemy@signature.com> + Subject: Re: Holy Flying Foreskins, Batman! > Message-ID: <MPG.1d06bc55108293999896a0@news1.on.sympatico.ca>  9 In article <91a126be6e2bb5703d6a418b28351ab0@dizum.com>,   nobody@dizum.com says...  ) Why do you keep spaming our usenet group?    > JF Mezei kooked: > I > >This documentary of Frank Abingdale Jr was aired in Canada last night.  > > E > >The text in us.imdb.org states that this reflects pretty much what F > >really happened, to a poing where comments from the Frank AbingdaleH > >himself forced the editors/producer to edit the final movie to better > >reflect reality.  > > D > >In the movie, the actor escapes from a 707 landing in new york byK > >removing a panel over the toilet and going behind/under toilet, and then + > >is seen coming out of landing gear well.  > > I > >This seems quite impossible since wheel wells are outside the pressure J > >hull, and toilets are inside, and with no access hatches that I know of > >between the two.  > > J > >Does anyone have any details of how the real Frank Abingdale Jr escapedG > >from the 707 ? Or was that part totally fabricated with the real guy I > >agreeing to the fabrication of the story ? (seems at odds with reports O > >that he had the producers change parts of movie to be reflect more reality).  > Q > If you had read the book you would know that he escaped by turning his foreskin ) > inside out and using it as a parachute.  > V > They had to omit that part from the movie because the actor who played Frank's part,$ > Leonardo DiCaprio, is circumcised. > R > You should know all this, since you're the expert on foreskins and circumcision. >  > http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?as_q=circumcision&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=jfmezei&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=5&as_maxy=2005&safe=off > F > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/a3716cf0c9e12606 >  >  >  >  >  >    --  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------@    o  |~>                                      Dominique CormannA | (\._[~]                             http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca  @ |~|) |~~|                dominique.cormann @ kozmik.guelph.on.ca   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:58:34 -0700   From: Hatunen <hatuunen@cox.net>+ Subject: Re: Holy Flying Foreskins, Batman! 8 Message-ID: <8t1q915bluvec665hcq4d9i62bcn7mu8d5@4ax.com>  5 On Tue, 31 May 2005 19:24:57 -0400, Dominique Cormann  <seemy@signature.com> wrote:  : >In article <91a126be6e2bb5703d6a418b28351ab0@dizum.com>,  >nobody@dizum.com says...  > * >Why do you keep spaming our usenet group?  < That would be hard for anyone to answer without knowing what newsgroup you mean.   / You and he have posted to the following groups:    rec.travel.air comp.os.vms  can.internet.highspeed sci.space.shuttle  alt.circumcision      >     ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************>     *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *>     * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *   ------------------------------   Date: 31 May 2005 20:59:28 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID+ Message-ID: <3g41hfFad5cuU1@individual.net>   B In article <1117570729.5ad78b1e6762cfd132408dab5381a438@teranews>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > A >> And you don't think they already do that?  In most metro areas 9 >> the streets are riddled with cameras and microphones.   > C > That doesn't allow the authorities to type in your name and ask a # > computer where you currently are.   A Neither does carrying a National ID Card in your pocket.  But the B cameras, microphones, cell phones, GPS in cars, etc does a heck of a lot more.   @ By the way, for those who think this is some fiendish Republican> plot, when I lived in Germany back in the early 70's everybody@ carried an Ausweis and the Polizei could ask for it at any time.@ No one I knew ever mentioned it infringing on their freedom.  So I guess this is nothing new.   > F > But the minute you book a flight in the USA (or to the USA), the USAA > government has your credit card number, your phone number, meal E > preferences , hotel reservations if done as part of a travel agency H > (same reservation record) etc. And with that, they can then track yourF > every purchase on the credit card and thus know that you just bought= > something 2 minutes ago at a 7-11 at such and such address.   I First, all that information has been available at TRW (the credit branch, G not the car parts) for several decades.  Secondly, if you think the FBI F has nothing better to do than look at my in-flight meal preference (byF the way, I seldom eat on airplanes, I sleep) your more paranoid than I thought.   > H > The problem with this is that if Osssama was at that 7-11 at about theG > same time as you were, the computer will then flag you as a terrorist B > suspect. (same as if you travel on the same plane as a terroristJ > suspect, or stay at same hotel during same period as terrorist suspect).I > They then go though all the data they accumulated over the years on you I > to see if there is any link or not. But if the computers see a pattern,   > then you're put on "the" list.   Yep, your paranoid.    > C > Consider that some cities in the USA, notably Detroit  have large L > population with arabic names and think about how the computers will react.  E Pretty much as thay have been.  The windows boxes will crash the unix B boxes will continue to chug along and the VMS boxes will sit there$ begging for somebody to market them.   >  >> Just ? >> about everyone today carries a cell phone that is constantly  >> transmitting your location. > I > That is information that is not stored by the mobile hone companies. It   J How do you know that?  :-)  They may be keeping track of you specifically.  C > is available only on request by authorities (and 911 operators).    = 911 operators don't request it, it's displayed automatically.   I >                                                                  In the J > past (and in civilised nations), one needs a warrantto get the telcos to > release that information.   B Actually, that's not necesasrily true.  There is no reason why the@ phone company can't use that information for their own marketingA purposes or make it available to others just like any other info- C rmation you make voluntarily available to them.  If you dig back in A the Risks Digest archives you will find that in the early days of C cellular phones it was not uncommon (it was very common in Atlanta) B for your cell phone to ring when you entered a different providers@ area and receive a personalized greeting from the local company.   > " >> All the new motor vehicles seem >> to have GPS and OnStar. > I > Does OnStar constantly transmit or only when you press a button does it 2 > tell the operators your location and condition ?  A You tell me.  If I were OnStar and I was constantly monitoring my B users, I would never admit it, but it has been pointed out (again,B try looking in the Risks Digest archives) that they can turn it onC and monitor conversations in the car any time they wish without the $ people in the car being aware of it.   > F > Seems to me that from a bobile network costs point of view, GM wouldH > have designed OnStar to be on-demand only and not transmit constantly.  C On who's demand?  Yours, or theirs?  Now you really have more to be  paranoid about.  :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 31 May 2005 16:01:51 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID3 Message-ID: <CcI4lU+N4IS8@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <Tl478rJOYBn$@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: X > In article <3fpjtlF90q5gU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>  = >> So which do they have on ISS?  An IBM 24 or a Univac 1610?  > C >    "They" as in NASA, the Russians, or one of the other builders?  > : >    Sadly I think they're all using different processors.  @ Sadly ?   I thought that was one of the strengths upon which the2 Space Shuttle relied -- different implementations.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:04:46 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID0 Message-ID: <119pnorj00id818@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >  > @ >>And you don't think they already do that?  In most metro areas8 >>the streets are riddled with cameras and microphones.  >  > C > That doesn't allow the authorities to type in your name and ask a # > computer where you currently are.  > F > But the minute you book a flight in the USA (or to the USA), the USAA > government has your credit card number, your phone number, meal E > preferences , hotel reservations if done as part of a travel agency H > (same reservation record) etc. And with that, they can then track yourF > every purchase on the credit card and thus know that you just bought= > something 2 minutes ago at a 7-11 at such and such address.  > H > The problem with this is that if Osssama was at that 7-11 at about theG > same time as you were, the computer will then flag you as a terrorist B > suspect. (same as if you travel on the same plane as a terroristJ > suspect, or stay at same hotel during same period as terrorist suspect).I > They then go though all the data they accumulated over the years on you I > to see if there is any link or not. But if the computers see a pattern,   > then you're put on "the" list.  D Up until this point, I was agreeing with those thinking that you're G paranoid.  But, this administration, and probable past administrations   also, do have lists.  ) Not allowing a reporter into the country.   ' Not allowing a singer into the country.    Ted Kennedy!  :-)   I I remember when an American didn't have to have 'papers'.  It was a joke  F about the 'Evil Empire', and the Gestapo, and such.  "Papers, please".  G Note that being able to locate people isn't totally a bad thing.  It's  , that the use of such knowledge can be wrong.   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:24:01 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional IDB Message-ID: <1117578238.269769c81a11425f502bedb086630060@teranews>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:B > By the way, for those who think this is some fiendish Republican@ > plot, when I lived in Germany back in the early 70's everybodyB > carried an Ausweis and the Polizei could ask for it at any time.B > No one I knew ever mentioned it infringing on their freedom.  So > I guess this is nothing new.  ? Are the current european ID cards computer readable with enough D information stored in them to be able to perform complete identitityG theft by any merchant who read your card's info ? (biometric, your life  story etc).   D Are europeans required to present this card when boarding a domesticG flight or train ? Are the airlines and train companies required to read G the contents of the card and authenticate it with the government before  allowing you to board ?   K > First, all that information has been available at TRW (the credit branch, * > not the car parts) for several decades.   F The credit bureaus do not have individual purchases history, they haveD payment history. And in civilised nations, there are laws to protect@ access to this information. (They are called data privacy laws).      > Secondly, if you think the FBIH > has nothing better to do than look at my in-flight meal preference (byH > the way, I seldom eat on airplanes, I sleep) your more paranoid than I
 > thought.    A You don't underestand. When this massive database is available in A computer readable format, it allows authoritise to build computer 2 profiling systems to pick out suspicious persons.   > In the case, airport police did not have access to reservation? information. All they had access to was the paper customs cards E passengers filled out and handed over to immigration folks and really D did have to go through all of them to spot someone they were lookingC for. This was only done when absolutely necessary because it was so H inefficient and time consuming. So individuals didn't have to fear aboutG that information being misused or transmitted to the wrong persons. But E now that this information will be computerised, they will not only be L able to seek known individuals, but also use profiling to spot new suspects.  F Consider your country's "no fly list", a list to which no american hasD access (not even under FOIA). And it is riddled with errors, causingH flights to divert because some 5 year old kid or 85 year old elderly has4 a name that ressembles some name on the secret list.  F Expand this philosophy to every day living in the USA, and you'll findG plenty of errors being made with computers spotting some individual and F declaring he is a terrorist suspect by error with all of the excessiveH police actions that result when someone is declared a terrorist suspect.  G Just because computers now allow certain things to be done doesn't mean   that such things should be done.   > Yep, your paranoid.   H Fine, call me what you want. But in civilised nations people still fightE for their freedom and liberty and don't tolerate government excesses.   @ In Canada, there is a government inquiry asking why the canadianF government didn't fight to save a canadian citizen from being captured@ while in transit at JFK on hiw way to canada and then sent to beF tortured in Syria by americans who concucted stories and told Syria he was a dangerous terrorist.  F But in the USA, there are very few stories of all the excesses made byE american authorities, so americans aren't revolting and are allowing, N and in many cases, supporting government increases in "police state" policies.  C Your systems will make the monitoring of citizens in the old Soviet E Union look like Disneyland since americans will use technology to its D fullest extent to expand its monitoring to levels even Orwell didn't	 think of.   2 It isn't paranoya, it is a question of principles.  ? > 911 operators don't request it, it's displayed automatically.   H The 911 "companies" pull the information from the phone networks as partH of the 911 protocols. That information isn't transmitted with every callC made to anyone. In some cases, it is the municipality which has the H information on residents and physical characteristics of a residence andB the 911 company pulls that information from the municipality. (forD instance, if there are old people in home disabled or otherwise sick3 people, information on gas /water connections etc).   G (I used 911 company instead orf 911 operators because it seems that you K were thinking of the persons wioth headsets sitting in front of a monitor).     D > Actually, that's not necesasrily true.  There is no reason why theB > phone company can't use that information for their own marketingC > purposes or make it available to others just like any other info- 2 > rmation you make voluntarily available to them.   G Countries with data privacy laws have rules against release of personal G information to trird parties without the owner of the information being  aware of it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:40:49 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID, Message-ID: <8oydnUiawKhmegHfRVn-2A@igs.net>   Just a bit more on it.... L http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/121077;_ylt=Aub7mypCVoJzfVc5KkelMhFk24cA;_yl" u=X3oDMTBhMjZlOTM4BHNlYwNsbjE2OTU-     Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > In article <1117570729.5ad78b1e6762cfd132408dab5381a438@teranews>,1 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>B >>> And you don't think they already do that?  In most metro areas9 >>> the streets are riddled with cameras and microphones.  >>D >> That doesn't allow the authorities to type in your name and ask a$ >> computer where you currently are. > C > Neither does carrying a National ID Card in your pocket.  But the D > cameras, microphones, cell phones, GPS in cars, etc does a heck of
 > a lot more.  > B > By the way, for those who think this is some fiendish Republican@ > plot, when I lived in Germany back in the early 70's everybodyB > carried an Ausweis and the Polizei could ask for it at any time.B > No one I knew ever mentioned it infringing on their freedom.  So > I guess this is nothing new. >  >>G >> But the minute you book a flight in the USA (or to the USA), the USA B >> government has your credit card number, your phone number, mealF >> preferences , hotel reservations if done as part of a travel agencyD >> (same reservation record) etc. And with that, they can then trackE >> your every purchase on the credit card and thus know that you just E >> bought something 2 minutes ago at a 7-11 at such and such address.  > C > First, all that information has been available at TRW (the credit C > branch, not the car parts) for several decades.  Secondly, if you G > think the FBI has nothing better to do than look at my in-flight meal G > preference (by the way, I seldom eat on airplanes, I sleep) your more  > paranoid than I thought. >  >>E >> The problem with this is that if Osssama was at that 7-11 at about B >> the same time as you were, the computer will then flag you as aC >> terrorist suspect. (same as if you travel on the same plane as a  >> terroristA >> suspect, or stay at same hotel during same period as terrorist G >> suspect). They then go though all the data they accumulated over the > >> years on you to see if there is any link or not. But if the: >> computers see a pattern, then you're put on "the" list. >  > Yep, your paranoid.  >  >>D >> Consider that some cities in the USA, notably Detroit  have largeF >> population with arabic names and think about how the computers will	 >> react.  > G > Pretty much as thay have been.  The windows boxes will crash the unix D > boxes will continue to chug along and the VMS boxes will sit there& > begging for somebody to market them. >  >> >>> Just@ >>> about everyone today carries a cell phone that is constantly >>> transmitting your location.  >>G >> That is information that is not stored by the mobile hone companies.  >> It  > > > How do you know that?  :-)  They may be keeping track of you > specifically.  > C >> is available only on request by authorities (and 911 operators).  > ? > 911 operators don't request it, it's displayed automatically.  > F >>                                                                  InE >> the past (and in civilised nations), one needs a warrantto get the & >> telcos to release that information. > D > Actually, that's not necesasrily true.  There is no reason why theB > phone company can't use that information for their own marketingC > purposes or make it available to others just like any other info- E > rmation you make voluntarily available to them.  If you dig back in C > the Risks Digest archives you will find that in the early days of E > cellular phones it was not uncommon (it was very common in Atlanta) D > for your cell phone to ring when you entered a different providersB > area and receive a personalized greeting from the local company. >  >># >>> All the new motor vehicles seem  >>> to have GPS and OnStar.  >>G >> Does OnStar constantly transmit or only when you press a button does 6 >> it tell the operators your location and condition ? > C > You tell me.  If I were OnStar and I was constantly monitoring my D > users, I would never admit it, but it has been pointed out (again,D > try looking in the Risks Digest archives) that they can turn it onE > and monitor conversations in the car any time they wish without the & > people in the car being aware of it. >  >>G >> Seems to me that from a bobile network costs point of view, GM would = >> have designed OnStar to be on-demand only and not transmit  >> constantly. > E > On who's demand?  Yours, or theirs?  Now you really have more to be  > paranoid about.  :-) >  > bill   --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.    ------------------------------   Date: 31 May 2005 23:09:19 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID+ Message-ID: <3g494uFai151U1@individual.net>   B In article <1117578238.269769c81a11425f502bedb086630060@teranews>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:C >> By the way, for those who think this is some fiendish Republican A >> plot, when I lived in Germany back in the early 70's everybody C >> carried an Ausweis and the Polizei could ask for it at any time. C >> No one I knew ever mentioned it infringing on their freedom.  So  >> I guess this is nothing new.  > A > Are the current european ID cards computer readable with enough F > information stored in them to be able to perform complete identitityI > theft by any merchant who read your card's info ? (biometric, your life 
 > story etc).   > Don't know, I haven't lived in Germany for over 30 years.  But@ I have no fear of the government strealing my identity.  And theA Credit Card copanies have more than enough info and employees who @ can not be trusted.  So the question still is, "How paranoid areA you?"  You still have the option of moving out into the middle of E nowhere and livinglike a hermit with none o fthe modern conveniences.    > F > Are europeans required to present this card when boarding a domestic > flight or train ?   E In 1971 I flew from Frankfurt to Saarbruecken (actually St. Ingebert) F and when I arrived there were Zoll and Polizei waiting and the GermansA got hassled even more than I did (as soon as I told them I was an B American, at first because I spoke German they herded me over with> the locals.  Of course, nobody got hassled like the Turks. :-)  B And, other than the airport, it was my understanding that they had6 to present their Ausweis on demand, no warrant needed.  I >                   Are the airlines and train companies required to read I > the contents of the card and authenticate it with the government before  > allowing you to board ?    Not yet that I know of.  :-)   > L >> First, all that information has been available at TRW (the credit branch,+ >> not the car parts) for several decades.   > H > The credit bureaus do not have individual purchases history, they haveF > payment history. And in civilised nations, there are laws to protectB > access to this information. (They are called data privacy laws).  D Which doesn't protect you from unscrupulous employess.  Or don't youD read any current news?  I seem to recall a few Canadian Banks havinf the same problems.  :-)    >  > ! >> Secondly, if you think the FBI I >> has nothing better to do than look at my in-flight meal preference (by I >> the way, I seldom eat on airplanes, I sleep) your more paranoid than I  >> thought.  >  > C > You don't underestand. When this massive database is available in C > computer readable format, it allows authoritise to build computer 4 > profiling systems to pick out suspicious persons.   ? I'm not suspicious, or paranoid.  Which are you?  Trust me, the > federal government already knows all there is to know about me$ and personally, I don't really care.   > @ > In the case, airport police did not have access to reservationA > information. All they had access to was the paper customs cards G > passengers filled out and handed over to immigration folks and really F > did have to go through all of them to spot someone they were lookingE > for. This was only done when absolutely necessary because it was so J > inefficient and time consuming. So individuals didn't have to fear aboutI > that information being misused or transmitted to the wrong persons. But G > now that this information will be computerised, they will not only be N > able to seek known individuals, but also use profiling to spot new suspects. > H > Consider your country's "no fly list", a list to which no american hasF > access (not even under FOIA). And it is riddled with errors, causingJ > flights to divert because some 5 year old kid or 85 year old elderly has6 > a name that ressembles some name on the secret list.  G O. I see.  It's a secret list.  Only you have access to it.  Otherwise, 0 how would you know it was "riddled with errors".   > H > Expand this philosophy to every day living in the USA, and you'll findI > plenty of errors being made with computers spotting some individual and H > declaring he is a terrorist suspect by error with all of the excessiveJ > police actions that result when someone is declared a terrorist suspect. > I > Just because computers now allow certain things to be done doesn't mean " > that such things should be done. >  >> Yep, your paranoid. > J > Fine, call me what you want. But in civilised nations people still fightG > for their freedom and liberty and don't tolerate government excesses.   B Sounds funny doming from a Canadian.  Tell me, did Canada ever getC permission to change their own Constitution without asking Englands  permission first?    > E >> Actually, that's not necesasrily true.  There is no reason why the C >> phone company can't use that information for their own marketing D >> purposes or make it available to others just like any other info-3 >> rmation you make voluntarily available to them.   > I > Countries with data privacy laws have rules against release of personal I > information to trird parties without the owner of the information being  > aware of it.  > Read your License Agreement. You already gave them persmissionB to do anything they want with the information they collect.  But IC am sure that like most people, you signed your name on the contract F without bothering to read the 20 pages of "License" that came with it.  E I can imagine your getting pretty tired by now.  What with how little E you must sleep at night worrying about all this. But then, that's the H life of the paranoic.  I, on the other hand, prefer to limit my worrying to real problems.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 31 May 2005 23:13:18 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID+ Message-ID: <3g49ceFai151U2@individual.net>   0 In article <119pnorj00id818@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > JF Mezei wrote:  >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>   >>  A >>>And you don't think they already do that?  In most metro areas 9 >>>the streets are riddled with cameras and microphones.   >>   >>  D >> That doesn't allow the authorities to type in your name and ask a$ >> computer where you currently are. >>  G >> But the minute you book a flight in the USA (or to the USA), the USA B >> government has your credit card number, your phone number, mealF >> preferences , hotel reservations if done as part of a travel agencyI >> (same reservation record) etc. And with that, they can then track your G >> every purchase on the credit card and thus know that you just bought > >> something 2 minutes ago at a 7-11 at such and such address. >>  I >> The problem with this is that if Osssama was at that 7-11 at about the H >> same time as you were, the computer will then flag you as a terroristC >> suspect. (same as if you travel on the same plane as a terrorist K >> suspect, or stay at same hotel during same period as terrorist suspect). J >> They then go though all the data they accumulated over the years on youJ >> to see if there is any link or not. But if the computers see a pattern,! >> then you're put on "the" list.  > F > Up until this point, I was agreeing with those thinking that you're I > paranoid.  But, this administration, and probable past administrations   > also, do have lists. > + > Not allowing a reporter into the country.  > ) > Not allowing a singer into the country.  >  > Ted Kennedy!  :-)  > K > I remember when an American didn't have to have 'papers'.  It was a joke  H > about the 'Evil Empire', and the Gestapo, and such.  "Papers, please". > I > Note that being able to locate people isn't totally a bad thing.  It's  . > that the use of such knowledge can be wrong.  H And yet while crying about a possible future threat (remember, we changeH governments like some people change shirts :-) people willingly give allG of the same information to people who they have absolutely no reason to D trust and frequently sign license agreements that openly allow theseK people to exploit that information for their own personal gain.  Go Figure.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 31 May 2005 18:58:36 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional IDC Message-ID: <1117591116.729849.106070@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Dave Froble wrote: > JF Mezei wrote:  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >  > > B > >>And you don't think they already do that?  In most metro areas9 > >>the streets are riddled with cameras and microphones.  > >  > > E > > That doesn't allow the authorities to type in your name and ask a % > > computer where you currently are.  > > H > > But the minute you book a flight in the USA (or to the USA), the USAC > > government has your credit card number, your phone number, meal G > > preferences , hotel reservations if done as part of a travel agency J > > (same reservation record) etc. And with that, they can then track yourH > > every purchase on the credit card and thus know that you just bought? > > something 2 minutes ago at a 7-11 at such and such address.  > > J > > The problem with this is that if Osssama was at that 7-11 at about theI > > same time as you were, the computer will then flag you as a terrorist D > > suspect. (same as if you travel on the same plane as a terroristL > > suspect, or stay at same hotel during same period as terrorist suspect).K > > They then go though all the data they accumulated over the years on you K > > to see if there is any link or not. But if the computers see a pattern, " > > then you're put on "the" list. > E > Up until this point, I was agreeing with those thinking that you're H > paranoid.  But, this administration, and probable past administrations > also, do have lists. > + > Not allowing a reporter into the country.  > ) > Not allowing a singer into the country.  >  > Ted Kennedy!  :-)  > J > I remember when an American didn't have to have 'papers'.  It was a jokeH > about the 'Evil Empire', and the Gestapo, and such.  "Papers, please". > H > Note that being able to locate people isn't totally a bad thing.  It's. > that the use of such knowledge can be wrong.    D Exactly. Look at what Stalin did: he murdered people he didn't like.G Quite a few (millions), all without all this computer spying that JF is  so worried about.   G So JF, you'd rather have terrorists setting off nukes? If and when they , do, I think things will move to a new level.     >  > Dave >  > --6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596@ > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com > 170 Grimplin Road  > Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:41:43 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional IDB Message-ID: <1117593682.f9e42ae06bc52215be5594f57d4bc95d@teranews>  
 AEF wrote:I > So JF, you'd rather have terrorists setting off nukes? If and when they . > do, I think things will move to a new level.  B I thought of different ways to respond to this. In the end, in the? interest of diplomacy, and the fact that this isn't a policical E newsgroup, I opted not to respond. Don't expect any sympathy when you B are the victim of identity theft eiother criminally, commercially,3 access control to buildings or your own government.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 01:25:17 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID0 Message-ID: <119qhiok5bhmpb8@corp.supernews.com>  
 AEF wrote:  F > Exactly. Look at what Stalin did: he murdered people he didn't like.I > Quite a few (millions), all without all this computer spying that JF is  > so worried about.  > I > So JF, you'd rather have terrorists setting off nukes? If and when they . > do, I think things will move to a new level.  I I don't think that what the US government is doing will stop terrorists.  I   Yes, they can catch and/or stop some.  Never all.  The real problem is  H that there are enough total idiots in this world that would contemplate F using a fission device on a city.  Note that even one is one too many.  ? In the last 60 years, (not counting WWII), not one leader of a  G government that had the capability has done so.  War, bad as it is, is  C one thing.  Killing thousands (or more) people for whatever reason  G requires a total disregard for life.  Most people just don't want such  I to happen.  It's the few who might that are the problem.  Usually, those  B that fit this classification aren't technically capable enough to J accomplish such a deed.  They talk to too many people and thus get caught.  E Will such an event ever happen?  Don't know.  Sometimes I think it's  F just a matter of time.  However, consider the conquences.  People can * act irrationally in moments of great pain.  I Thinking about it, perhaps it's a problem that nukes haven't been used a  E few times in the past 60 years.  It's gotten to the point where most  H people don't think it would ever happen.  That's a problem.  Think back H to some of the reports from the Middle East after 9-11.  People dancing F in the streets in Jordan.  Not all, but enough to make the news.  Can E anybody say that they didn't know at least one kneejerk redneck that  L declared "we ought to nuke 'em all"?  If not, you don't get around too much.  F One reads such things as Saudi schools that teach 'kill all infidels' E instead of 'reading, writing, and arithmetic'.  Something the muslem  H world should keep in mind.  The US, Russia, England, France, and China, I any one of them could make the geographical muslem world just a bunch of  H 'glow in the night' patches, and for the rest there is the spectacle of  'crystal night'.  G Don't really understand why Bin Laden types think to provoke those who  H could be pushed into some really radical retaliation.  They thought the I Taliban would shelter them.  Not so.  It's scary.  What most would think  F impossible, could become possible if the provocation is great enough. H There are those who say that terrorists feel they have nothing to lose.    That's not true.  I I don't think living in New York City is a good idea.  Scary world right   now.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:14:03 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> / Subject: Latest VMS BootCamp instructions forum 4 Message-ID: <429d441c$0$16642$626a14ce@news.free.fr>   Sue, you said:  G  > PLEASE PLEASE have the latest anti-virus software update put on your H  > laptop's, we have noticed that people share a lot of files and we are*  > so used to VMS that we assume security.  F Is McAfee a good software to HP's eyes, or should I remove it and put - bad old standard Norton back on my HP laptop?    Regards    D. PRSTSC::DTL  --  1 Didier MORANDI - Expert informaticien - VMS / SAP 0   13 chemin du Gu, 1213 Petit-Lancy (GE) Suisse0 Tl. : +33(0)6 7983 6418 ~ www.didiermorandi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:13:09 -0400 4 From: "Peter Weaver" <newsgroup@weaverconsulting.ca>8 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Management Station can't show disks+ Message-ID: <3g3npnFagj9mU1@individual.net>    Gremlin wrote:A > Sadly, no better - now 3.2D on server and client, rebooted (how 7 > windows like!), still storage is playing hard to get!  >...  D A google search on "TNT EMPTYSET" shows that back in 1999 Hoff said;   ====C   First make sure that the version of OMS supports these local SCIS  disks,E   and that it supports storage access on OpenVMS VAX -- this question  was C   also forwarded to OpenVMS Engineering by the poster, and is being  checked '   by some of the folks on the OMS team.  ====  G Since you are using IDE disks maybe Management Station does not support B IDE disks? Have you checked with VMS support to see what they say?   --   Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.  Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAX  www.weaverconsulting.ca    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:08:00 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 8 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Management Station can't show disks0 Message-ID: <119pnun27gpt45b@corp.supernews.com>   Gremlin wrote:
 > Hello Peter  > O > That may well be the answer, but with a Hobbyist license, VMS support is not   > an option!  H Wrong assumption.  They probably won't devote effort to your particular A problem, but they have people on support who could have the same  C problem, and if they don't know about a problem, they can't fix it.   H As far as I know, you don't have to have support to submit a bug report.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 31 May 2005 18:45:44 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon). Subject: Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation)+ Message-ID: <3g3pmnFadchtU1@individual.net>   8 In article <5fbp919quq439a408hrdbijv38lqsffrrr@4ax.com>,, 	jlsue <jeffls-delete@sbcglobal.net> writes:< > On 29 May 2005 01:06:26 -0700, anuj.goyal@gmail.com wrote: > F >>after 2 days on this sytem I am very very impressed, rock solid (theI >>way an OS should be).  the DCL syntax does take some getting used to... = >>is there a rosetta stone for win32, unix, openvms commands?  >> > 0 > Grab an English dictionary and/or a Thesaurus. >   F And let me know when you find MIBCOMP, TFF, CXX, GENCAT, LANCP, LATCP, DSR, ACS, NCP, UIL........  + Let's not start this thread yet again.  :-)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:33:44 GMT ) From: jlsue <jeffls-delete@sbcglobal.net> . Subject: Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation)8 Message-ID: <5fbp919quq439a408hrdbijv38lqsffrrr@4ax.com>  : On 29 May 2005 01:06:26 -0700, anuj.goyal@gmail.com wrote:  E >after 2 days on this sytem I am very very impressed, rock solid (the H >way an OS should be).  the DCL syntax does take some getting used to...< >is there a rosetta stone for win32, unix, openvms commands? >   . Grab an English dictionary and/or a Thesaurus.   --- jls 0 The preceding message was personal opinion only.5 I do not speak in any authorized capacity for anyone,  and certainly not my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 31 May 2005 16:05:14 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) . Subject: Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation)3 Message-ID: <$RyLFPmkXMrz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3g3pmnFadchtU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:: > In article <5fbp919quq439a408hrdbijv38lqsffrrr@4ax.com>,. > 	jlsue <jeffls-delete@sbcglobal.net> writes:= >> On 29 May 2005 01:06:26 -0700, anuj.goyal@gmail.com wrote:  >>  G >>>after 2 days on this sytem I am very very impressed, rock solid (the J >>>way an OS should be).  the DCL syntax does take some getting used to...> >>>is there a rosetta stone for win32, unix, openvms commands? >>>  >>  1 >> Grab an English dictionary and/or a Thesaurus.  >>   > H > And let me know when you find MIBCOMP, TFF, CXX, GENCAT, LANCP, LATCP, > DSR, ACS, NCP, UIL........  C Don't bother looking for something until you find a need to use it.   > In 25 years I have used 5 from that list and never heard of 3.   ------------------------------   Date: 31 May 2005 21:31:39 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon). Subject: Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation)+ Message-ID: <3g43dqFag55jU1@individual.net>   3 In article <$RyLFPmkXMrz@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:X > In article <3g3pmnFadchtU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:; >> In article <5fbp919quq439a408hrdbijv38lqsffrrr@4ax.com>, / >> 	jlsue <jeffls-delete@sbcglobal.net> writes: > >>> On 29 May 2005 01:06:26 -0700, anuj.goyal@gmail.com wrote: >>> H >>>>after 2 days on this sytem I am very very impressed, rock solid (theK >>>>way an OS should be).  the DCL syntax does take some getting used to... ? >>>>is there a rosetta stone for win32, unix, openvms commands?  >>>> >>> 2 >>> Grab an English dictionary and/or a Thesaurus. >>>  >>  I >> And let me know when you find MIBCOMP, TFF, CXX, GENCAT, LANCP, LATCP,  >> DSR, ACS, NCP, UIL........  > E > Don't bother looking for something until you find a need to use it.  > @ > In 25 years I have used 5 from that list and never heard of 3.  ? I have no doubt that is true.  I specifically picked the ones I B did because of the constant "VMS is intuitive cause it's English".A While most of it is, some of it isn't and none of it is intuitive > to a non-English speaker.  There, now the thread can be but to  bed once again until next month.  E All of them, by the way, came from the HELP command on 7.3.  I didn't 5 use the ones that are obviously stolen from Unix. :-)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 31 May 2005 22:23:08 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)) Subject: [ECP V5.5A] Installation anomaly , Message-ID: <429ce3cc$1@news.langstoeger.at>  I I recently upgraded ECP V5.5 to V5.5A on some machines and (after a break I for a couple of weeks) I had to look on which system which ECP version is C installed. I was quite surprised to find SYS$SYSTEM:ECP$PLAN.EXE at  various V5.4 versions.  I And indeed, ECP V5.5[A] installation didn't install a ECP$PLAN.EXE (which D is called with the DCL verb PLAN) - at least in my systems logfiles.H I didn't realize it earlier, because V5.4 SYS$SYSTEM:ECP$PLAN.EXE works.  G Is this intended (don't think so) or a (minor) bug ? And will ECP V5.5A F installation provide a ECP$PLAN.EXE if V5.4 wasn't installed earlier ?   TIA    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.303 ************************                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  &=խ0sPȀ叒[/,h?YU}[p"\47T>DRBnɤ4$́3KxISZ9[AVx]K"ZƈoAiZPԯn7ʼsoi ݋+Ƞa|ރ_wwgv`dZC__7~{l48p6^vX8w;Txţar%y|9}t8r( raw=hwR:;N@D*GFgw[>Lbȕƻ{pS_{7ѳzk<Mo91h(mAoJ{CRRAڼtss[7p
հKITְ_*PUʳ1Kyz+QI36

B<`Y	b,­xfY g@`dr|&t87[NEEjI2B[wI
HnKYue]̠ /]VPwnZ蟈íz[rUkx^\<teel
+341/E!^Y/H#rXDRعI\52,ʊVp!!fKjn˘."7<v_6Ǚ) *YdX9ǘ:oPe?j&sXPVx$ӖZV#b)k`7ԓJr҉،ݛt&@X!Rg
GL(BHHĔABS9)ԲЌ'2D@"<,R'S|$ *X 6xV3r*\G1p^"[0l~e
vV2Ֆх]-]n</gKЮ2U`7<ݮ_$+\Of<+i^qӫ)dq+HTM[[;ξxw
|yΝMvq_e2f}ys7%|Ət)?=rZc(sx`xq|`4r eYsy
-Bb<R9\4MI\ON_8Dzhg_F%Gж)2?Hn1нc^S=2I8l)_ ni0prf⺵\qcrwHbص,lu@SZ.욖Ç)_֓h<mZ8zC0P(a$ =/Ziy\c
f7<ׯNum`hm3k?3'?cp]ee/cM֝*9%PH(Vtb)p^Jz jټ^w]Cn;AۛPjQ:0?F	ו:moSHMTdwfa<dq͡,'0Gzȴk-idPQ8j=3V'	Uz\Pv(ϬV̘pQCùnUX)ɾ\ `/90MqQ&ke^WBRlA@iIL8f3My96HL4Ⱦ<3$BxM^ mBIۂ ڮTGƾzDQlxDX5IQC0ƎG'.4Gãpe&{s- F Yȍ}$MTi}St%m04R!G'.!8G\3fB(ٓ߆Bɓ
e|D)<>n+k?i.RR<3Ɣd[u@l) 8Hez
fհ@`)f(}IWx.+f9@JA,0(q}iu=h
Y8+L.\D23͞ V>G߭^W\Ap	D>@!O3z<W ѓ6 4R*?mDHUsXRh/nr{426cMʂ"?dy+s!M߲	g7E᜜DpS@V_~#h`=Z>x9Q3<qG]h6ٓXا"N-VQ>f-
<qn_[)'5WQ%5 j[tdtjJr
Vl;ݷHoiTSiiMfsD6I3VjXTftj	gMzû>z
JS]^vݝqkg"PS_;$!HC/Uu],#pM B-X}H,Acj˗G~S`q
j)KnYz7zpn$.8jI3}GS>~nB 'ZRUP)VY~B$a+uSՉ](l5_Z̋*0GH'H!˂Κi@Ms82sL8!K58}8ҲCe,VMs,MPgڪ;GD
ϟ-irOa6ؓ館֜39~ܤ]6ge9kl{XC9/.hȧk-0E-zh]cXf( NI58YZs2/oaO˄T =9ӶC̬ɩ~ktmףޚ5@rgY|8_T5C+ث&{u79:XP +vV.>O&ǐy&k*9|pY
XIV8HШg$kT*c
;@H]
޴O T^)bv!k`YE%=Y1n0Fa<#ey$
K7h$Oɸxg=eAwf]V8]W]+eWFU/+?tKe~Q?s/E{ܹr+ME`0 e(l@ѧ
wAq=`i}Ͻx6woa2;MPҳs$([Au1h>R~2^[͝nGê-H<{
,`y2De Ghd I<~2EfOضV@
_9Gn8&1RȖ)l=5qgW'yuGi+Z[g*G (vU39a"A	MsWܡ>W"
s1w7G 좥Iֽ٤{w/vov/UA
/CvzDric~\]2kW4.pr[
_\)0amo;?T
UD|ƃ|/.>(P&{;W=PJ)ڈֽH.{"mDRw