1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 03 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 308       Contents:
 Re: a sad day 
 Re: a sad day 
 Re: a sad day 
 Re: a sad day 
 Re: a sad day 
 Re: a sad day , Alpha LINKtime OR of multiple Global Symbols0 Re: Alpha LINKtime OR of multiple Global Symbols0 Re: Alpha LINKtime OR of multiple Global SymbolsC Boot Camp We have hit our 200 today, but we have an overflow buffer  Re: edt plugin for netbeans  Re: edt plugin for netbeans ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? RE: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID ? Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID  Re: Image IDENT location Re: Image IDENT location Re: Image IDENT locationP Re: ITRC Natural Language Search (was Re: Third party Windows App to NFS map Ope" Re: just getting started questions" Re: just getting started questions" Re: just getting started questions( Re: Problems installing DW-MOTIF and LAT( Re: Problems installing DW-MOTIF and LAT Redirecting SMTP Re: Redirecting SMTP Re: Redirecting SMTP Re: Redirecting SMTP Re: Redirecting SMTP Re: Redirecting SMTP Re: Terry Shannon passed away  Re: Terry Shannon passed away  Re: Terry Shannon passed away  Re: Terry Shannon passed away  The Soul of a New Machine  Re: The Soul of a New Machine  Re: The Soul of a New Machine  Re: The Soul of a New Machine  RE: The Soul of a New Machine  Re: The Soul of a New Machine  Re: The Soul of a New Machine % Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation) % Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation) % Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation) % Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation)  Re: [OT] AV for MAC P Re: [OT]: Petro-Euros and the decline of the US dollar- WAS: HP to help  governmP Re: [OT]: Petro-Euros and the decline of the US dollar- WAS: HP to help governme  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:07:28 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: a sad day$ Message-ID: <d7ovjg$b9j$1@online.de>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:  6 > I am sorry that I can not really talk about this yet   I read the article at   D    http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/05/25/6716036  I To me, the saddest part was that he wrote that he couldn't afford health  C insurance.  He mentioned that the premium was about $5k per year.   @ Remember, for every high-profile person who can't afford health I insurance, there are many others.  It is estimated that about 50 million  H U.S. citizens don't have health insurance.  There was an article in the C German weekly "Der Spiegel" recently where it was pointed out that  I although the U.S. spends about $5k per year per person for medical care,  G putting them at the top of the list, the quality is far from being top  H of the list.  Apparently, a lot of the money goes into profits for drug I companies, where the margins are much higher than other countries.  This  G is justified by saying that this ensures that the quality is high, but  C let's face it, people are not suffering in other countries such as  D Canada, Germany, Sweden etc from low-quality drugs.  In Europe, the F average health-insurance contribution is about $2500 per year, and in G the huge majority of cases (there are occasional slip-ups now and then  E as regulations change, which are understandably criticised but it is  G important to remember that these are problems many countries wish they  I had) this gets one all the medical care which is necessary.  (I recently  G recovered from cancer; the costs were orders of magnitude above what I  H had paid in to the scheme---of course, that's the purpose of insurance.)   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jun 2005 15:44:21 -0700 ! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com  Subject: Re: a sad dayB Message-ID: <1117752261.526416.68630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Folks,  G If you go to his web site and read this article it explains a lot about  what he had been going throughA http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/05/25/6716036   4 I am sorry that I can not really talk about this yet sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:37:07 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: a sad day+ Message-ID: <429FA633.92D22328@comcast.net>   " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote: >  > Folks, > I > If you go to his web site and read this article it explains a lot about   > what he had been going throughC > http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/05/25/6716036  > 6 > I am sorry that I can not really talk about this yet > sue    We all understand...   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jun 2005 03:27:01 -0700 # From: "Galen" <gltackett@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: a sad dayC Message-ID: <1117794421.099801.104870@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   ' Dear Sue (and all the others here too),   G I'm terribly saddened at the loss of your friend Terry. As I alluded to F in another thread on this subject, I didn't really know him well--just@ from frequent chats at the old Fall Decus symposia, and from hisF Charlie Matco and other writings--yet I looked on him as a friend too.  D As a co-sufferer from depression who has sometimes sunk quite deeply@ myself, though in recent years only briefly, it's easy for me to9 imagine how the history of recent years--not just that of > DEC-->Compaq-->HP, but his own and that of the world around us all--might have affected him.   5 My deepest condolences to all who knew and loved him.    Galen    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:51:44 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: a sad day, Message-ID: <42A07C85.58D90470@teksavvy.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: J > To me, the saddest part was that he wrote that he couldn't afford health
 > insurance.    H No, the saddest part is that the VMS marketplace had shrunk/changed to aH point where he was no longer making enough money to live at a reasonableA comfort level.  It isn't just the VMS marketplace, it is also the G internet which makes the information widely and easily available and it H is a lot harder to convert  into money. It started when Digital News andE Review ceased publications because it felt the DEC marketplace wasn't  big enough anymore.   E It is very hard on a person who had invested so much time, effort and @ scarce money into being loyal to Digital and VMS to see all thatE investment squandered. DEC employees had plush severance packages and H retirement funds. Self employed people who had helped market VMS because1 Digital didn't were stuck without any such help.      E A year ago, a long time DECUS Canada leader was in her death bed with H terminal cancer.  She died well, not because of the medical care she wasF given, not because she had lived comfortably but because she still hadF very good spirits, and lots of friends visiting her constantly. To me, that was a good death.    F Even where medical care is given to all citizens, you still need moneyG to survive. Without money, it is hard to maintain friendships since you C can't really participate in any of their activities. And you end up , alone even if your body is physically sound.   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:25:50 +0000 (UTC)- From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)  Subject: Re: a sad day. Message-ID: <d7q3qu$bhe$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes in article <429FA633.92D22328@comcast.net> dated Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:37:07 -0500: # >susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:  >>  	 >> Folks,  >>  J >> If you go to his web site and read this article it explains a lot about! >> what he had been going through D >> http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/05/25/6716036 >>  7 >> I am sorry that I can not really talk about this yet  >> sue >  >We all understand...   I I'm not so sure we do, David.  Susan might know more than the rest of us.   L Clinical depression is normally fatal via suicide, right?  Nobody has postedK a link to an obituary.  I'm not suggesting that anybody who knows something F in confidence should speak out, but maybe if Charlie's local newspaper# printed something we should know...   0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:35:12 +0000 (UTC)3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> 5 Subject: Alpha LINKtime OR of multiple Global Symbols ? Message-ID: <d7p88f$rro$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>    Hi,   K This is probably (hopefully) my last problem porting to Alpha so I hope you I can help me. If you look at the example below, you'll see how I'd like to H initialize a constant with the binary OR of two Global Symbols. Is there$ anyway to get this to work on Alpha?  K (Yes, I know I could provide a $symDEF macro for a Compile-Time OR, and for H the time being I'll go for a Run-Time OR, but if you know how to achieve7 what I'm trying to do on Alpha then please let me know)    Regards Richard Maher    $ on warning then exit* $ define/nolog share1 sys$login:share1.exe $! $ create share1.mar          .title  Share One 	 sym1 == 1 	 sym2 == 2          .end $! $ macro/list share1.mar ? $ link/share=sys$login:share1.exe share1.obj,sys$input:/options    gsmatch=lequal,1,0   symbol_vector = (            -                 sym1 = data, -                 sym2 = data  -                 )  $! $ create test1_def.mar%         .title          external defs L         .psect          send_flags,pic,ovr,rel,gbl,long,noshr,noexe,rd,nowrt#         .long           <sym1!sym2>  ;        .long           <sym1>          .end $! $ macro/lis test1_def  $! $ create test1.cob identification division. program-id.    test1.  data division. working-storage section.& 01  send_flags pic 9(9) comp external. procedure division.  00. 3     display "Flags = ", send_flags with conversion. 
     stop run.  end program test1. $! $ cobol/lis test1.cob , $ link test1.obj,test1_def.obj,sys$input/opt psect_attr=send_flags,pic,nowrt  sys$login:share1.exe/share $!   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:15:31 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 9 Subject: Re: Alpha LINKtime OR of multiple Global Symbols ( Message-ID: <opsrssj5pwzgicya@hyrrokkin>  8 On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:35:12 +0000 (UTC), Richard Maher  $ <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote:  K > This is probably (hopefully) my last problem porting to Alpha so I hope    > you K > can help me. If you look at the example below, you'll see how I'd like to J > initialize a constant with the binary OR of two Global Symbols. Is there& > anyway to get this to work on Alpha?  F why not use LIB$GET_SYMBOL?  What is the data type you are trying to   achieve? is it the PIC 9(9)?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:47:56 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 9 Subject: Re: Alpha LINKtime OR of multiple Global Symbols ( Message-ID: <opsrswt6sxzgicya@hyrrokkin>  F I misunderstood, what you meant by global symbol, I thought you were  	 referring  to DCL symbols.   H If you had access to PL/I this would be a pieace of cake, just link in  	 following   
 ttt: proc;$ dcl (x,y,z) fixed bin(31) globalref;
 z = x ! y; end;  8 On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:44:05 +0000 (UTC), Richard Maher  $ <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote:  	 > Hi Tom,  > J > This is honestly no big deal and I don't want anyone to waste a lot of   > timeI > on it. When something works on VAX and not on Alpha it's just nice to    > knowG > why. All I want to do is initialize an integer constant, for my COBOL F > program, to the value of the binary OR of two Global Symbol values  	 > defined L > in a shareable image that I am linking to. No, these values won't change   > and , > among the list of options I could do is: - > I > 1) Just hard-code the bloody thing (Publish the values as well as the    > names) > 2) Do it at run-time9 > 2a) COBOL doesn't have a OR verb so I can call mth$jior H > 2ai) They're distinct mutually exclusive bits so I could just ADD themD > 3) Provide a $t3def GLOBAL Macro so it can be done at compile timeK > *) Ideally, I'd like to avoid the PSECT and just say new_sym==<sym1!sym2>   > but that doesn't work anywhere > J > This is just example code that I'm moving from VAX to Alpha. Option 3 is6 > probably the way to go but 2a requires less thought. > # > As I said, just good to know why.  >  > Regards Richard Maher  > 0 > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message$ > news:opsrssj5pwzgicya@hyrrokkin...9 >> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:35:12 +0000 (UTC), Richard Maher ' >> <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote:  >>I >> > This is probably (hopefully) my last problem porting to Alpha so I    >> hope  >> > youK >> > can help me. If you look at the example below, you'll see how I'd like  > toI >> > initialize a constant with the binary OR of two Global Symbols. Is    >> there) >> > anyway to get this to work on Alpha?  >>G >> why not use LIB$GET_SYMBOL?  What is the data type you are trying to  >> achieve?  >> is it the PIC 9(9)? >  >    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jun 2005 11:09:38 -0700 ! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com L Subject: Boot Camp We have hit our 200 today, but we have an overflow bufferB Message-ID: <1117735778.004203.59300@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   ----Original Message-----  From: Skonetski, Susan% Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:07 PM  To: Skonetski, SusanB Subject: Folks if you have not registered for the OpenVMS AdvancedE Technical boot camp and you are planning to, which would surprise me, 3 tell registration you have my ok to be an exception     : We have hit our 200 today, but we have an overflow buffer.  
 Warm Regards,  Sue    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:19:00 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)$ Subject: Re: edt plugin for netbeans6 Message-ID: <00A44B0E.DDE5B51A@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  b In article <v6uu91dtunnh5hil9jkqit6o6q4m36h0ol@4ax.com>, John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> writes:B >I don't want to see it, but I am curious about it.  I am not sure; >what an EDT plugin is.  There are two ways to add stuff to 9 >EDT.  One is by defining keys in a startup command file, 8 >and the other is by calling EDT from a program.  In the9 >latter case you have an XLATE command (if memory serves) ? >that will perform a callback to EDT's caller.  Is that how you  >do an EDT plugin?  I See the subject line.  This isn't a plugin _to_ EDT; this is a plugin for I NetBeans (Java-based IDE for various languages, enhanced with Distributed K NetBeans to have a server-side component on VMS) that brings the EDT keypad  to the NetBeans editor.    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:19:39 -0400 ' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> $ Subject: Re: edt plugin for netbeans8 Message-ID: <du4v91hkr2v8a9m2s4iccjjbp9udoud87p@4ax.com>  F On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:19:00 GMT, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan( Winston - SSRL Central Computing) wrote:  c >In article <v6uu91dtunnh5hil9jkqit6o6q4m36h0ol@4ax.com>, John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> writes: C >>I don't want to see it, but I am curious about it.  I am not sure < >>what an EDT plugin is.  There are two ways to add stuff to: >>EDT.  One is by defining keys in a startup command file,9 >>and the other is by calling EDT from a program.  In the : >>latter case you have an XLATE command (if memory serves)@ >>that will perform a callback to EDT's caller.  Is that how you >>do an EDT plugin?  > J >See the subject line.  This isn't a plugin _to_ EDT; this is a plugin forJ >NetBeans (Java-based IDE for various languages, enhanced with DistributedL >NetBeans to have a server-side component on VMS) that brings the EDT keypad >to the NetBeans editor. >  >-- Alan  % Aha, thank you for the clarification. %     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:59:56 +0200  From: S <soterroatyahoodotcom>H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID& Message-ID: <42a00df7$1@news1.ethz.ch>   Dr. Dweeb wrote:L > For a deeper understanding of the fundamental issues, (and a book to give L > you terminal insomnia) I suggest that everyone read "The End of Faith" by 
 > Sam Harris. u > http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743268083/qid=1117741009/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-0581227-6464648  > > > Read the book, open your mind and make your own conclusions.  " And this paper by Richard Dawkins:  5 http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/04/30/dawkins/ 9 (unless already registered you have to watch an ad first)    S    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 05:54:13 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID0 Message-ID: <11a0a2veplduj01@corp.supernews.com>   S wrote: > Dr. Dweeb wrote: > H >> For a deeper understanding of the fundamental issues, (and a book to H >> give you terminal insomnia) I suggest that everyone read "The End of  >> Faith" by Sam Harris.w >> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743268083/qid=1117741009/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-0581227-6464648   >> >>? >> Read the book, open your mind and make your own conclusions.  >  > $ > And this paper by Richard Dawkins: > 7 > http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/04/30/dawkins/ ; > (unless already registered you have to watch an ad first)  >  > S   H Typical bullshit.  There is as much evidence that there is NOT a god as F there is evidence that there is a god.  In either case, the number is H zero.  The only intellegent/truthful people are those who say, "I don't A know".  Imagine one tiny mudball having all the knowledge of the  < universe available.  Dawkins is as bad as those he despises.  @ As for the idiots that are in such a hurry to get to heaven, or : wherever, my only question is, "What are you waiting for?"   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:16:36 +0200  From: S <soterroatyahoodotcom>H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID$ Message-ID: <42a03c10@news1.ethz.ch>   Dave Froble wrote:7 > There is as much evidence that there is NOT a god as  * > there is evidence that there is a god.    G The discussion was about politics not theology, so I provided the link  G in the context of political implications of certain religious stances.  F One point for Dawkins: as unfounded as he might be, he doesn't impose ; his views to others and THAT is an important point to take.    S    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:52:26 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID0 Message-ID: <119uookoi4ct29f@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >    > B >>But if they used the same "logic" we keep hearing about Iraq, weF >>would never have attacked Germany because Germany wasn't threatening# >>us and proably never could have.   >  > G > Germany was attacking many countries. Countries such as England asked F > their friends to come to the rescue. And plenty of countries came toD > help because Germany was a rogue nation out on a rampage. And even9 > Russia stepped in to stop that rogue nation's progress.   E Whoa!  JF, you're so far out that it would take light years to reach  C you.  Hitler and Stalin had an agreement.  Stalin was basically on  F Hitler's side until good old idiot Adolph turned on him.  Try to keep = your fanatical ramblings somewhat close to reality, will you?   J > When the USA was attacked on 9-11, all its allies came to the rescue andH > when the Afghan government refused to help, plenty of nations not only> > agreed but also participated in the invasion of Afghanistan. > J > Iraq was not attacking anyone, and none of its neighbours wanted the USAJ > to invade. Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz had promised in 1998 to tear up theJ > Clinton agreement with North Korea, invade Iraq to oust Hussein and showF > the middle east was was really in power etc.  This had nothing to doD > with protecting the world, everything to do to re-assert the USA'sH > military and political might which they felt had been compromised by aE > weak Clinton. These actions weren't based on current realities, but 1 > rather on long standing plans by the evil trio.  > J > The end result  is that the USA is now seen as the rogue nation invading	 > others.   H You're really good at sticking to your agenda, regardless of the topic,  aren't you?   H I can't argue against the decision to get rid of Saddam.  I was for it. H   He was hurting many people, and just because of lines someone drew on 5 a map is no reason to accept such activity, anywhere.   H But there is a history there, and if the US hadn't been so inept in the G past, he wouldn't have been such a loose cannon.  In particular, after  I the first Gulf War, the Shiites and Kurds could have been protected from  F him and the Sunnis.  Much of today's problems were created by past US 	 mistakes.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:53:50 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID0 Message-ID: <119uor7531gf8d3@corp.supernews.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:^ > In article <429E509C.82669C81@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >  > J >>Iraq was not attacking anyone, and none of its neighbours wanted the USA
 >>to invade.   >  > C >    Iraq was actively attacking UN sanctioned no-fly zone patrols.  >   > JF is good at ignoring facts that don't agree with his agenda.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:00:12 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID, Message-ID: <429F6549.71BAA0AE@teksavvy.com>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: H > So. Noone is suggesting that your current administration has become soP > Totalitarian as to represent a threat to ethnic, religious or other subsets of > it's population.  D BBC reported some time ago that not long after Patriot Act came intoD effect, the FBI started to systematically harass and interrogate allE muslims in a new york neighbouhood, to such an extent that many shops H closed when the owners decided to leave the USA and this created quite a9 void and depressed building values in that neighbourhood.   G A canadian of syrian origin (moved to canada as a boy) while in transit E at JFK (he didn't want to enter the USA, he just wanted to swich from B overseas flight to one getting him to Canada, but at JFK that doesF require one enter the USA) was kidnapped. The USA authorities, insteadG of following internationally agreed protocols which would have seen him D refused entry and returned to his point of origin, was allowed entry= into the USA and immediatly arrested once he stepped past the E immigration counter, no access to lawyers, not even a phone call, and D then a few days later (in jail) was deported to Syria and Syria toldE that he was a terrorist by the USA and told it could do as it wished. G The guy was tortured and it took over a year for canadian government to  get him out.  G In canada, there is an inquiry to investigate why our government didn't E act more forcefully to free him and why Canada didn't complain to the A USA for this digusting treatment (as well as allegations that our D equivalent of CIA may have given the USA some information about this? guy). In the USA, poeple have come to accept this as normal and > perfectly legal and anyone questioning such actions is labeledH unptriotic or worse a "liberal". In Canada and other democratic nations,H such treatments are unacceptable. And when they do happen, the media and, opposition parties have a field day with it.    C It is fascinating that an era of information, a government is still E capable of manipulating the information to its advantage and keep its H citizens from knowing the true story to such an extent that USA citizensF react to such stories by violently insulting the foreigner telling theG story . Accusations of being against the USA, supporting the terrosists F etc etc abound.  Whilst the information is out there, americans refuseH to hear/read it. That is why Fox and CNN are so popular since they offerC only the information that americans have been conditioned to want.    C Kids have to eat their vegetables even if they don't like them. You H can't just feed them chocolate bars.  Media have a duty to feed citizensE with the information they need to know, not just the information they  want to know.     H While CNN and Fox are self censorship related to ratings and good access@ to White House. Newsweek is a more blatant censorship event. TheG retraction, as told to foreign media, was about Newsweek not being able E to corroborate the specific story about there have been a US military D investigation on the mishandling of the Koran. And it turns out thatF Newsweek was right on the rest of its story since a week or two later,G the USA military officially admitted that there had been mishandling of = Koran, although no *proof* of it being flushed down a toilet.   H What did the White House/Rumsfeld threathen Newsweek with to cause it to+ retract a story that was essentially true ? H Note that this happened in the UK as well, after the BBC accusation thatC Bliar had sexed up the dossier. A major investigation couldn't find F evidence linking the PM to the sexing up and the blame went to the BBCB reporter and even the head of the BBC lost his job over this, even? though the accusation was true and was later proven to be true.     F Following the recent UK elections, a PBS news hour interview asked theH question of why Iraq had costed Bliar so many seats while in the USA, itH didn't cause Bush any real problems. The answer was simple: The UK mediaF had reported the Iraq war like it was without fear of pointing fingersE and calling the government a liar. The USA media had reported it in a C government friendly way, failing in its duty to tell it like it is.     B Information is only good when you're willing to accept and use it.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:11:54 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <429f680b$0$78285$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >>  War, bad as it is, is E >> one thing.  Killing thousands (or more) people for whatever reason ' >> requires a total disregard for life.  > # > One needs to better define "war".  >   M War has plenty of defnitions - several in fact. http://www.tfd.com/war for a  1 quick list. And the Wikpedia entry is quite good.   , > What the USA has done in Iraq was not war.  K Yes it is/was/continues to be.  Nation states do not "agree" to go to war,  M one attacks the other, forcing the other's hand (reasons for said attack are  I rather irrelevant).  The ensuing armed conflict is generally regard as a   war.  * > It was an unprovoked and illegal attack.  
 See above.  5 >  that killed far more iraqis and destroyed far more B > infrastructure than what happened in the USA on 9-11. Heck, yourF > government sent more than half has many americans to their deaths inD > Iraq, and injured far more americans. (and that isn't counting the* > 15,000 or so iraqis killed by americans) >   H Gee whizz, I would need to use a wayback machine, but IIRC were you not A claiming 100,000s killed in previous discussions on this matter ?   F > Americans may have been convinced this was perfectly legal, but thenA > al Qaeda members were also convicned that the 9-11 attacks were F > perfectly legitimate. The USA government purposefully misinterpreted > UNA > resolutions to try to convince americans of the legitimacy, and G > Al-Qaeda purposefully misinterpreted the Quoran to lend legitimacy to  > their actions. > F > Outside of the USA, nobody though that this invasion of Iraq had any
 > legitimacy.   / This statement is patently and palpably false !   9 > Even Bliar knew that it would have required a second UN H > resolution to authorise use of force and that such resolution woudln'tF > come because the UN inspectors were 6 weeks away to proving all WMDs > had in fact been destroyed.  >   K The bottom line is that Iraq never adhered fully to the ceasfire agreement  G from GWI (the first Gulf War). The subsequent UN resolutions and their  L supposed force (superceding the ceasfire stipulations) are just displomatic L sophistry.  To the victor goes the spoils of war - and amongst those spoils M is the unimpeded right to impose its will upon the loser - modern diplomatic   sophistry aside.  D > People in the middle east did not condone Al-Qaeda's 9-11 attacks.C > (except for a few isolated incidents).  People in the USA solidly @ > condoned the Bush attack in iraq by re-electing him instead of, > impeaching that government for war crimes. > F > So, if the actions of the Bush regime have raised the anger level ofG > terrosists, american citizens are now more at risk  now that they areCC > seen as supporting the bad policies.  Had americans clearly takenaE > actions to bring down  and/or impeach the Bush government, it wouldlB > have sent a clear message to the rest of the world that americanF > citizens did not condone the type of illegal abuse of military forceG > and thus helped defuse the anger buildup in terrorists. By supporting E > the Bush government's actions, american citizens made things worse.s >t  K Before you start spouting on about legality, then I would suggest that you  I learn to understand what "international law" is and exactly where on the tA philosophical scale of what "Law" and "legality" is.  You may be  G unpleasantly or pleasantly surprised - depending on your point of view.v  ; A quick (re-)read of "The Prince" would also seem in place.g  E > The solution to terrorism isn't military. It is diplomatic. The USAnG > needs to set foreign policy that does not motivate people to join the G > causes of a few terrorists. And yes, there are other steps to preventgC > terrorism, but those are generally very subtle and not visible toe > citizens.n >I  J This statement, at least hsitorically, is patently and palpably false.  A M review of history will reveal that terrorists either end up dead (almost the mH entire PLO in europe, Hamas operatives, the Taliba etc. etc.) or end up E getting what they want.  It is mostly the former, because few terror cL organisations have any legitimate goals other than the perceived grievances K of an agrieved minority.  Being a terrorist is an almost certain ticket to l early life termination.r  E > The Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz policies added fuel to terrorism. AndwD > the USA government decided use give itself fascist state powers toC > give the impression that it was protecting americans. Most of thecF > steps taken are very visible for a good reason: they are politicallyG > driven to give americans the impression that the government is takingt> > drastic steps to protect them. And it makes it harder for an > oppositio party to opposeeH > any step portrayed as being devised to protect americans.  None of theE > invididual steps may be that terrible, but taken together, and whensE > you look at the trend, one really wonders where the USA is heading.  >c   And your point is ?l  G > Americans may have been convinced that those steps are necessary, the & > rest of the world sees it otherwise. >w  L Can you attest to 4 billion people holding this view?  JF, you do not speak J for the world, you speak for JF and you have no mandate for anything else.  J That comment aside, I am rather appalled at some of the current US and UK K legislations infringing/repealing civil liberties - so I am right with you t on this!  E > So when we see americans accepting this National ID thing like goodi@ > white sheep, we wonder what happened to the good old USA whereF > citizens would have never allowed their government to pass such laws > as Patriot@ > Act or this national ID thing burried in some military budget.  K National ID cards exist in many countries, and the suggestion that they be dM implemented has bought down governments in others.  It rather depends on the tK group psyche of the nation involved.  Personally, I carry my passport 100% d9 of the time, so it would make no difference to me at all.a  H Personally, I would probably not have attacked Iraq, but then I have no D mandate from the people of the worlds most powerful military nation.  
 Dr. Dweb    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:16:38 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>lH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID, Message-ID: <429F6921.D4B698F6@teksavvy.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:C >    Iraq was actively attacking UN sanctioned no-fly zone patrols.o  E Actually, the no-fly zones were not UN sanctioned per say. UK and USAtG had accepted a mandate to secure Iraq's borders to ensure the sanctions-M were enforced. the USA and UK used that mandate to implement the no fly zone.(  F The no-fly zones were not part of the peace deal (from Gulf War V1.0).D So Iraq had legal right to defend its airspace with whatever weaponsG were legal under the new restrictions on weapons. Those planes may have H been part of an invasion force from a neighbouring country for instance.  E Consider that a weakened Iraq without any powerful weapons left couldpH have been invaded by a neighbour, so it had every right to defend againtG any intrusion into its airspace. The fear of invasion was real and thisiB is why Hussein wanted to maintain the illusion he still had potent) weapons to scare potential invadors away.l  D And consider that the USA used its planes to launch bombs onto IraqiE infrastructure. So they were not there only to enforce "no fly zone", E they were there to target Iraqi facilities on the ground and that wasc not part of any UN deal.  C Similarly, the accusations by Hussein that the USA was planting CIA.E operatives into the UN inspections teams was later proven to be true,,H but at the time dismissed as pure hogwash and caused Clinton to pull the UN teams out in 1998.   E Hussein was no saint. But that doesn't mean that he was wrong 100% ofu	 the time.o  E When you're on one side of the coin, it is often very hard to see theuK other side. You need to be away from the coin to be able to see both sides.r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:12:41 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>rH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <429f6839$0$78288$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>d   S wrote: > JF Mezei wrote:(E >> any step portrayed as being devised to protect americans.  None of E >> the invididual steps may be that terrible, but taken together, andsB >> when you look at the trend, one really wonders where the USA is >> heading.0 > B > Neither the newly found fundamental christianity of the americanF > politicians is going to help much establish successful international > relationships. >b > S ! > (boy, are we off topic or what)    F**ck Yeah - great inenit :-)g   Dweeb. t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:22:20 -0400r' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>yH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID0 Message-ID: <119uqgn8t4msv78@corp.supernews.com>   Karsten Nyblad wrote::
 > S wrote: >  >> Karsten Nyblad wrote: >> >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>mG >>>> Oh please.  No other country in the world has the freedom we have.i >>>> Minority or not.  >>>b >>>  >>>t >>>a- >>> That is a statement that can be debated. h >> >> >>I >> Well the statement is true if you put it in a historical perspective.   >  > I > Even that can be questioned, e.g., black people, native Americans, and yH > other colored people did not have many, and were not fully integrated C > with full rights until the civil rights movements of the sixties.M  / Ha!  Nailed you to the wall with that one.  :-)n  I Regardless, nothing is perfect, and anything can be improved.  The way I sE see things right now, the US is in some ways backsliding, instead of -
 improving.  A I too can see some activities that are enjoyed in the US and not  F elsewhere.  Try aviation.  In many countries it's tough to do, and in  others flat out forbidden.  F The US, and other places, are still pretty good.  I think they can be - much better.  Call it constructive criticism.h   -- a4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road. Vanderbilt, PA  15486o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:25:18 -0400y- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID, Message-ID: <429F6B28.F4E5A8E0@teksavvy.com>   "Bochnik, William J" wrote:y >  > Not to get in the middle of this holy war, but what's your take on people here ILLEGALLY?  Do they deserve the same rights under the constitution?  What about an american illegally in another country?  C Yes. In terms of humand and legal rights, whether you're a citizen,mH visitor, illegal immigrant etc, you must have the same RIGHTS. Because aE constitution normally talks about PEOPLE, it is not clear if an alieniH from Mars would have any mroe rights than a rat in a new york sewer. ButE all humans have access to those basic rights. These basic rights wereiE further legally enshrined by all countries who ratified into domestice- laws the UN treaties they agreed to abide to.   H A visitor on a country has to abide by that country's civil and criminalA laws, in exchange for garantees that he will be granted due legal'H process as per that country,s constitution irrespective of whether he is a citizen or not.   C The one right in a constitution that is reserved to citizens is the G right to vote. (and in some countries, it isn't a right, it is a duty).e  G You need to differentiate between access to government services such asiH health care, schooling etc, and a government's constitutional obligation! to treat humans in a certain way.a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:29:14 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>tH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <429f6c1a$0$78287$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>w   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:i> > In article <119rmvi4vd3f88d@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:a >>A >>> I haven't lost anything.  There is nothing I do that has been E >>> curtailed. More rights are taken away at the local level (usuallyJG >>> with the full agreement of the citizens) than at the federal level.s >> >> It's only a matter H >> of time until they get around to 'your' minority.  That's why it's inG >> every citizen's interest to resist any curtailing of anyone.  UnitedtA >> we stay free, divided we'll surely fall.  Your "I haven't lostw* >> anything" is a very dangerous attitude. >> > ? > As the German Pastor Martin Niemoller said about Nazi Germanye >dG > "When they came for the Jews, I did nothing, for I am not a Jew. When= > they came0C > for the Socialists, I did nothing, for I am not a Socialist. When> > they came for F > the labour leaders, the homosexuals, the gypsies, I did nothing, for > I am noneoG > of these, and when they came for me, I was alone, there was no one tod
 > stand up
 > for me." >o  . Certainly the final word on this matter. Amen.  	 Dr. Dweeb    >n > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >  >e >n >> --o7 >> David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450t7 >> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596 A >> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com2 >> 170 Grimplin Road >> Vanderbilt, PA  15486 m   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:44:00 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>sH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <429f6f90$0$78286$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>a   Karsten Nyblad wrote:l > JF Mezei wrote:t >>  And even: >> Russia stepped in to stop that rogue nation's progress. > H > Soviet Union did not enter the war before they were attacked.  In factE > they had a treaty with Germany to split Pole between them, and theyaD >  did. (Later on Soviet Union did a lot to beat Germany, and if oneF > nation is to named THE nation that beated Germany, then it has to be > Soviet Union.)  F Yes, this was struck home to me on a visit to Moscow a few years ago. J Inside the Kremlin at the WWII monument the 1939-1945 we have engraved on F our consciousness is not there !  The memorial anti-tank barrier just I outside Moscow is also a palpable reminder of just how close the Germans  L came.  As for the relative contributions of various nations, only those who K have never read a history book believe it not to have been Russia.  It was  K however the British whose noble act of  "drawing a lline in the sand" that  & really got things underway in earnest.    K " Operation Barbarossa, the German invasion of the Soviet Union, commenced dK on 22 June 1941. The "Great Patriotic War" (Russian: ??????? ????????????? gJ ?????, Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voyna) had begun with surprise attacks by I German panzer armies, which encircled and destroyed much of the Soviet's nL western military, capturing or killing hundreds of thousands of men. Soviet M forces came to fight a war of scorched earth, withdrawing into the steppe of  D Russia to acquire time and stretch the German army. Industries were M dismantled and withdrawn to the Ural mountains for reassembly. German armies uM pursued a three-pronged advance against Leningrad, Moscow, and the Caucasus. uI Having pushed to occupy Moscow before winter, German forces were delayed  L into the Soviet Winter. Soviet counterattacks defeated them within sight of G Moscow's spires, and a rout was only narrowly avoided. Some historians  I identify this as the "turning point" in the Allies' war against Germany; bM others identify the capitulation of the German Sixth Army outside Stalingrad $ in 1943."  - Wikpedia.    
 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jun 2005 16:01:33 -0500-; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)TH Subject: RE: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID3 Message-ID: <BGsVNqN$8qG3@eisner.encompasserve.org>i   In article <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D507CBD266@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>, "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes:w > N > Not to get in the middle of this holy war, but what's your take on people h=N > ere ILLEGALLY?  Do they deserve the same rights under the constitution?  Wh=4 > at about an american illegally in another country? > N > Completely different question, isnt it, and probably more what people think=2 >  when they say americans versus non americans...  E    Its been my experience that they mean anyone who doesn't both looko    and act white anglo-saxon.n  H    The worst illegal immigrants deserve is to be arrested and sent home,@    where their government may or may not recognise their rights.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jun 2005 16:04:58 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)tH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID3 Message-ID: <tKiE1ktsz2eu@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  \ In article <429F6549.71BAA0AE@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > 8 > A canadian of syrian origin (moved to canada as a boy)  F    You've conveniently ignored the fact that he held dual citizenship,B    one of which was Syrian.  Shipping a Syrian to Syria is hard to    argue with.  I > In canada, there is an inquiry to investigate why our government didn'th! > act more forcefully to free himt  F    Free a Syrian frm Syria?  The fact that he is legally Canadian does1    not change the fact that he is legally Syrian.r   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jun 2005 16:07:01 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)oH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID3 Message-ID: <6y98NcKz2pe1@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  V In article <3g8c3fFb5cs4U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:G > Yes, but unlike Nazi Germany in the 30's we have an opportunity every H > 4 years to throw the rascals out.  And it would take more than 4 yearsG > to try to circumvent that.  The only time this system has been broken-H > was FDR in WWII.  And I think that was a mistake.  Enough other people7 > also think so, so that it is unlikely to occur again.u  G    Enough people thought so that they actually changed the Constitutionc    and made it impossible.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:23:41 -04000' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>:H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID0 Message-ID: <119uu3r4kshgc81@corp.supernews.com>   Dr. Dweeb wrote:  J > Personally, I would probably not have attacked Iraq, but then I have no F > mandate from the people of the worlds most powerful military nation.  I Could be way wrong, but I don't think George had any specific mandate to . invade Iraq.  G The entire subject just shows how dominant the color 'gray' is.  I for sE one thought that the abuses against (some of) the people of Iraq was <E more than enough justification to 'free the Iraqi people'.  Upon his rF capture, Saddam claimed that he was a 'just' but 'firm' ruler.  After @ seeing the rather *large number of idiots in Iraq, I can almost D sympathize with his claim, seeing as 'firm' might be a requirement. H Some of the actions of him and his sons and others still wipes out such  sympathies.c  I * The only way the Sunni opposition can exist is with the cooperation of sG a significant part of the population.  I have no idea what they expect  H to achieve, but the Kurds and Shiites will never again allow the Sunnis I to dominate them.  Perhaps the Sunnis wish to be the target of genocide. m,   I have no idea where else this could lead.   -- t4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road- Vanderbilt, PA  15486i   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:17:40 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>uH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <429f7774$0$78288$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>e   JF Mezei wrote:o! > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:tF >> So. Noone is suggesting that your current administration has becomeC >> so Totalitarian as to represent a threat to ethnic, religious orl$ >> other subsets of it's population. >rF > BBC reported some time ago that not long after Patriot Act came intoF > effect, the FBI started to systematically harass and interrogate allG > muslims in a new york neighbouhood, to such an extent that many shopsrB > closed when the owners decided to leave the USA and this createdC > quite a void and depressed building values in that neighbourhood.g >hA > A canadian of syrian origin (moved to canada as a boy) while inyD > transit at JFK (he didn't want to enter the USA, he just wanted toE > swich from overseas flight to one getting him to Canada, but at JFK = > that does require one enter the USA) was kidnapped. The USAnD > authorities, instead of following internationally agreed protocolsF > which would have seen him refused entry and returned to his point ofE > origin, was allowed entry into the USA and immediatly arrested onceeD > he stepped past the immigration counter, no access to lawyers, notE > even a phone call, and then a few days later (in jail) was deported=E > to Syria and Syria told that he was a terrorist by the USA and toldmC > it could do as it wished. The guy was tortured and it took over an. > year for canadian government to get him out. >d  # OK. I did not follow this incident.u  D (a) He was syrian born canuck. (b) The US heisted him and posted himL back to Syria with a "terrorist" label.  (c) The Syrians, being so concernedH about the rise in international terrorism and wanting to do their bit toK curtail its evil spread, "tortured" this guy.  (d) Eventually, having "made A him talk" the Syrians posted him back to Canada as damaged goods.,   Is that the correct sequence?m  & Its the (c) that I fail to understand.   Dweeb.  B > In canada, there is an inquiry to investigate why our governmentG > didn't act more forcefully to free him and why Canada didn't complain6F > to the USA for this digusting treatment (as well as allegations thatE > our equivalent of CIA may have given the USA some information aboutwF > this guy). In the USA, poeple have come to accept this as normal and@ > perfectly legal and anyone questioning such actions is labeledA > unptriotic or worse a "liberal". In Canada and other democraticeE > nations, such treatments are unacceptable. And when they do happen,e< > the media and opposition parties have a field day with it. >n >.E > It is fascinating that an era of information, a government is stillaG > capable of manipulating the information to its advantage and keep itshA > citizens from knowing the true story to such an extent that USAsE > citizens react to such stories by violently insulting the foreigner F > telling the story . Accusations of being against the USA, supportingF > the terrosists etc etc abound.  Whilst the information is out there,B > americans refuse to hear/read it. That is why Fox and CNN are soC > popular since they offer only the information that americans haveo > been conditioned to want.H >oE > Kids have to eat their vegetables even if they don't like them. YouaA > can't just feed them chocolate bars.  Media have a duty to feede? > citizens with the information they need to know, not just thei  > information they want to know. >t >lC > While CNN and Fox are self censorship related to ratings and goodiE > access to White House. Newsweek is a more blatant censorship event.:B > The retraction, as told to foreign media, was about Newsweek notF > being able to corroborate the specific story about there have been aC > US military investigation on the mishandling of the Koran. And itlD > turns out that Newsweek was right on the rest of its story since aD > week or two later, the USA military officially admitted that there@ > had been mishandling of Koran, although no *proof* of it being > flushed down a toilet. >lG > What did the White House/Rumsfeld threathen Newsweek with to cause it 0 > to retract a story that was essentially true ?E > Note that this happened in the UK as well, after the BBC accusation E > that Bliar had sexed up the dossier. A major investigation couldn't.E > find evidence linking the PM to the sexing up and the blame went totG > the BBC reporter and even the head of the BBC lost his job over this,tF > even though the accusation was true and was later proven to be true. >e > H > Following the recent UK elections, a PBS news hour interview asked theG > question of why Iraq had costed Bliar so many seats while in the USA,kG > it didn't cause Bush any real problems. The answer was simple: The UK F > media had reported the Iraq war like it was without fear of pointingG > fingers and calling the government a liar. The USA media had reportedyF > it in a government friendly way, failing in its duty to tell it like > it is. >a >cD > Information is only good when you're willing to accept and use it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:44:59 -0400e' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>sH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID0 Message-ID: <119uvbpg4vraa52@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:-  H > Following the recent UK elections, a PBS news hour interview asked theJ > question of why Iraq had costed Bliar so many seats while in the USA, it& > didn't cause Bush any real problems.  G Actually, in the last election, Iraq played little part, regardless of s  how much you wanted it to do so.  D The stupid Democratic party appears to be dominated by far left New E England liberals.  (Hey, not too far from Montreal, huh?)  The other    choice was even worse than Bush.  H The entire election came down to Southern Ohio.  Republicans had gotten F referendums set up in several states, including Ohio.  The topic, gay E marriage, or more specifically, to outlaw such.  Then the right wing aG conservative religious nuts told their mindless followers (sheep) that  H the referendums were started by gays to promote gay marriage.  (So much I for "Thou shall not lie", or whatever.)  This brought out the Republican aI voters, which was the goal of the lies, and the margin that gave us four , more years of George.-  3 Sorry JF, it wasn't Iraq, it was worse, much worse.t   -- c4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486n   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:55:17 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>8H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <429f8045$0$78288$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>t   Dave Froble wrote: > Dr. Dweeb wrote: > G >> Personally, I would probably not have attacked Iraq, but then I haveoB >> no mandate from the people of the worlds most powerful military
 >> nation. > G > Could be way wrong, but I don't think George had any specific mandate  > to invade Iraq.l >l  K GB is the head of a nation governed by representative democracy - he needs rK no specific mandate for any action other than those specifically requiring 1K such mandate, such requirements normally being part of the constitution of HF said nation or required by subsequent legislations enacted under said K constitutions guidlines.  He may require authorisation from another arm of o6 government, but that is not a specific mandate either.  7 Long sentence, but I suspect that is the state of play.,  D GB has (as I understand it) a general mandate from the US people to K prosecute the power of the office of the President within the laws enacted oD for the use of said presidential office.  I have no such mandate :-)  H > The entire subject just shows how dominant the color 'gray' is.  I forF > one thought that the abuses against (some of) the people of Iraq wasF > more than enough justification to 'free the Iraqi people'.  Upon hisG > capture, Saddam claimed that he was a 'just' but 'firm' ruler.  AfterS   "a cruel man, but fair" ?o  K Indeed I think the wrong justification for the Iraq war was used and would  - have supported it more than the WMD argument.r  	 Dr. Dweebd  A > seeing the rather *large number of idiots in Iraq, I can almost E > sympathize with his claim, seeing as 'firm' might be a requirement.tD > Some of the actions of him and his sons and others still wipes out > such sympathies. >cG > * The only way the Sunni opposition can exist is with the cooperationaD > of a significant part of the population.  I have no idea what theyE > expect to achieve, but the Kurds and Shiites will never again allow A > the Sunnis to dominate them.  Perhaps the Sunnis wish to be thenB >  target of genocide. I have no idea where else this could lead.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:02:34 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>aH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID0 Message-ID: <119v0ckh2pjjo53@corp.supernews.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:^ > In article <429F6549.71BAA0AE@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > 8 >>A canadian of syrian origin (moved to canada as a boy) >  > H >    You've conveniently ignored the fact that he held dual citizenship,D >    one of which was Syrian.  Shipping a Syrian to Syria is hard to >    argue with. >  > I >>In canada, there is an inquiry to investigate why our government didn'tt! >>act more forcefully to free hims >  > H >    Free a Syrian frm Syria?  The fact that he is legally Canadian does3 >    not change the fact that he is legally Syrian.f >   I Heck, I don't know all the slimy details, but a Canadian citizen, on his nH way to Canada, is shanghied and shipped somewhere he didn't want to go? E   Perhaps this individual was some type of problem, but he was still rH enroute to the country where he was a citizen, and they (Canada) should  have handled it.  G This was just plain wrong, and the government organization responsible   should be held accountable.f  H It's this type of kneejerk reaction that is at the center of the entire F discussion on government by the people, and not people being governed.   -- o4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roade Vanderbilt, PA  15486t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:26:23 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>cH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID, Message-ID: <M5CdneVM2PwGGgLfRVn-hA@igs.net>   Dr. Dweeb wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: " >> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:G >>> So. Noone is suggesting that your current administration has becomeiD >>> so Totalitarian as to represent a threat to ethnic, religious or% >>> other subsets of it's population.e >>G >> BBC reported some time ago that not long after Patriot Act came intoeG >> effect, the FBI started to systematically harass and interrogate allhH >> muslims in a new york neighbouhood, to such an extent that many shopsC >> closed when the owners decided to leave the USA and this createdPD >> quite a void and depressed building values in that neighbourhood. >>B >> A canadian of syrian origin (moved to canada as a boy) while inE >> transit at JFK (he didn't want to enter the USA, he just wanted toiF >> swich from overseas flight to one getting him to Canada, but at JFK> >> that does require one enter the USA) was kidnapped. The USAE >> authorities, instead of following internationally agreed protocolsoG >> which would have seen him refused entry and returned to his point of-F >> origin, was allowed entry into the USA and immediatly arrested onceE >> he stepped past the immigration counter, no access to lawyers, notaF >> even a phone call, and then a few days later (in jail) was deportedF >> to Syria and Syria told that he was a terrorist by the USA and toldD >> it could do as it wished. The guy was tortured and it took over a/ >> year for canadian government to get him out.r >> >i% > OK. I did not follow this incident." >"F > (a) He was syrian born canuck. (b) The US heisted him and posted himD > back to Syria with a "terrorist" label.  (c) The Syrians, being soG > concerned about the rise in international terrorism and wanting to do A > their bit to curtail its evil spread, "tortured" this guy.  (d)hC > Eventually, having "made him talk" the Syrians posted him back toh > Canada as damaged goods. >m > Is that the correct sequence?s     Pretty much.L http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/ArticL le_Type1&c=Article&cid=1117707759703&call_pageid=968332188492&col=9687939721/ 54&t=TS_Home&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yesa      ( > Its the (c) that I fail to understand.  K They probably got some 'future considerations' and a 3rd-round draft choice  from the US in return.         --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.i   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:29:14 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>pH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID, Message-ID: <xqWdnfrVhdfaFQLfRVn-rA@igs.net>   Dr. Dweeb wrote: > Steven M. Schweda wrote:> >> From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) >>F >>> In article <d7n910$i3r$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk >>> writes:  >>>>. >>>> What do you mean by a "closed election" ? >>> 7 >>>    One controlled in all aspects by the Nazi party.t >>H >>   There are times when one wishes that someone, even the NSDAP, couldC >> enforce some relevance restrictions on the postings in this newsu	 >> group.o >> >nC > Indeed, but its good to vent every now and then - and there is an G > albeit tenuous link with the topic, in that a "National ID" system isnC > seen by many as a freedom and civil liberties issue, which mor oruG > less opens up the field of discussion to everthing, including but notcG > limited to my right to hold deadly pets within the confines of my owne > home.o    B I didn't know that you offered refuge to HP managerial staff   :-)   --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:01:07 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>lH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <429f7393$0$78280$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>o   Steven M. Schweda wrote:= > From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o >oE >> In article <d7n910$i3r$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk 
 >> writes: >>>a- >>> What do you mean by a "closed election" ?e >>6 >>    One controlled in all aspects by the Nazi party. > G >   There are times when one wishes that someone, even the NSDAP, couldpB > enforce some relevance restrictions on the postings in this news > group. >i  I Indeed, but its good to vent every now and then - and there is an albeit eL tenuous link with the topic, in that a "National ID" system is seen by many M as a freedom and civil liberties issue, which mor or less opens up the field nJ of discussion to everthing, including but not limited to my right to hold / deadly pets within the confines of my own home.r  	 Dr. Dweebi  J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >n5 >   Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818 4 >   382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode.org >   Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547     ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:54:04 -0400t( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <FNydnasRwIOQEwLfRVn-qg@metrocastcablevision.com>e   Dave Froble wrote:   ...h  F > The stupid Democratic party appears to be dominated by far left New  > England liberals.i  # Perhaps to the completely ignorant.t  F Nobody on the 'far left' (or for that matter anywhere *near* the 'far H left') in my rather large circle of political on-line acquaintances had C any use for Kerry whatsoever:  he was a choice anointed by the DLC lA (Democratic Leadership Council - a significantly right-of-center dI 'neo-liberal' Democratic think tank whose main claim to fame is the fact sF that Bill Clinton was an early founder in the mid-'80s:  they like to F claim it was their policies which got him elected twice, conveniently I ignoring his proven ability to talk a hungry mutt away from a fresh pork rE roast) after their real favorite (Joltin' Joe Lieberman) appealed to e, Democratic voters about as much as Bush did.  G Of the non-fringe Democratic candidates, Dennis Kucinich appealed most iI to those really on the left, but many were very willing to compromise to aD the extent of supporting Howard Dean - a centrist by any reasonable G definition of the term.  But Howard had the disconcerting habit of not aE going along with the DLC corporatist agenda but actually championing oI issues that mattered to *people*, so he had to go (and I don't have time  F to educate you about how that was arranged:  perhaps next time around K you'll pay sufficient attention to be aware of such machinations yourself).   F The fact that virtually all those on the left gritted their teeth and B not only voted for Kerry but actually went out and worked for his G election reflected only their abhorrence of Bush, not any fondness for dD Kerry.  While Kerry compiled a reasonably liberal record during his E early years in the Senate, for more than a decade he's been actively sF maneuvering into center-to-right, wishy-washy non-stances which would C not hurt his 'electability' - and he apparently got it half-right,  I because he did manage to win the nomination (though with a great deal of .) help from his friends in arranging that).f  H If Kerry had actually stood for anything (aside from those things where H he was careful to make it clear that he stood shoulder-to-shoulder with G Bush), he probably would be president today.  But those who maneuvered -@ Kerry into the nomination didn't really *want* someone all that I different from Bush, and those who hated Bush were so desperate to elect  I *anyone* else that they refused to try to pressure Kerry into becoming a 6 decent opponent.  H Given the number of Bush voters whom I've *personally* heard say they'd G have voted for Dean had he been the nominee, it's truly pathetic.  But  H it makes it pretty clear how much of the Democratic party leadership is I far more concerned with preserving their personal positions of power and e= influence within the party (based in large part on corporate eH contributions from grateful beneficiaries) than with minor matters like I winning the presidency or congress, let alone acting in the interests of s their constituents.v  D I hoped Kerry would lose, because a) his campaign positions weren't H sufficiently more palatable than Bush's to be worth bringing a barf bag F into the voting booth with me and b) had he won, I saw no hope at all F that the grip of the DLC and its sympathizers on the Democratic party H could be loosened.  Given how difficult it is *still* proving to loosen H that grip, my hope for the party's (and therefore the country's) future  is limited.a   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:11:56 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>qH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID, Message-ID: <429F922C.AC89FE5E@teksavvy.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:H >    You've conveniently ignored the fact that he held dual citizenship,D >    one of which was Syrian.  Shipping a Syrian to Syria is hard to >    argue with.    F He was traveling on a canadian passport and had come back from TunisiaC holiday restopr going back to Canada. The guy had not been to SyriarF since he was a young kid.  The proper internationally agreed procedureF would have been to send him back on the next flight to tunisia. Not toG let the guy in so that ocne ion, you can arrest him and do as you wish.l@ He was illegally deported to Syria without any due legal process& expected (no deportation hearing etc).  D It all has to do with due legal process which your country no longer. follows except when the USA media is watching.  H >    Free a Syrian frm Syria?  The fact that he is legally Canadian does3 >    not change the fact that he is legally Syrian.e  G He was a candain resident, married to a canadian with canadina childrennG and a permanent residence in canada, travelling on a canadian passport.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:16:53 -0400y- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>eH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID, Message-ID: <429F9355.80DC5D00@teksavvy.com>   "Dr. Dweeb" wrote:( > Its the (c) that I fail to understand.  C Following 9-11, two of the countries who provided the most valuableuC intelligence to the USA were France and Syria. Your government thenbL decided it was politically opportunistic to smear those countries to no end.  C The guy had permanently left Syria and never returned. If they have>G mandatory military service which he woudln't have done, that might have G been sufficient excuse to arrest him, especially since at the time, theeH USA still had good relations with Syria and would have told Syria how to handle this dangerous person.o  H Canada was not consulted and he was not even allowed to call his family.D The family called police to declare him "missing" and it took a longE while before the USA admitted to canadian ambassador in washington to ) what they had done to a canadian citizen.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:30:40 +0200r+ From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam>aH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <429fdd02$0$67263$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Dr. Dweeb wrote:F > (a) He was syrian born canuck. (b) The US heisted him and posted himN > back to Syria with a "terrorist" label.  (c) The Syrians, being so concernedJ > about the rise in international terrorism and wanting to do their bit toM > curtail its evil spread, "tortured" this guy.  (d) Eventually, having "made C > him talk" the Syrians posted him back to Canada as damaged goods.5 >  > Is that the correct sequence?e > ( > Its the (c) that I fail to understand.  G What is it find so difficult to understand.  It is well known that USA 2E in the later years have been flying people suspected of terrorism to g% countries known to torture prisoners.w   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jun 2005 07:46:02 -0500i; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)yH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID3 Message-ID: <Lhdf3iQb6Aqg@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  \ In article <429F922C.AC89FE5E@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > F > It all has to do with due legal process which your country no longer0 > follows except when the USA media is watching.  F    What makes you think the current administration follows due process    when the media is watching?   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jun 2005 07:42:59 -0500u; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID3 Message-ID: <aNE4cD$d1U7I@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  \ In article <429F6921.D4B698F6@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > G > Actually, the no-fly zones were not UN sanctioned per say. UK and USA I > had accepted a mandate to secure Iraq's borders to ensure the sanctions O > were enforced. the USA and UK used that mandate to implement the no fly zone.t > H > The no-fly zones were not part of the peace deal (from Gulf War V1.0).F > So Iraq had legal right to defend its airspace with whatever weaponsI > were legal under the new restrictions on weapons. Those planes may have J > been part of an invasion force from a neighbouring country for instance.  E    Now that's just plain revistionist history.  And a bald faced lie.c   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jun 2005 07:44:22 -0500n; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)IH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID3 Message-ID: <pxsaQuUjLmHm@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  Z In article <119v0ckh2pjjo53@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  K > Heck, I don't know all the slimy details, but a Canadian citizen, on his sJ > way to Canada, is shanghied and shipped somewhere he didn't want to go? G >   Perhaps this individual was some type of problem, but he was still .J > enroute to the country where he was a citizen, and they (Canada) should  > have handled it. > I > This was just plain wrong, and the government organization responsible h > should be held accountable.r      Now that I can agree with.h   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:57:18 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>aH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <42a053ae$0$78285$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Dave Froble wrote:
 > S wrote: >> Dr. Dweeb wrote:i >>H >>> For a deeper understanding of the fundamental issues, (and a book toH >>> give you terminal insomnia) I suggest that everyone read "The End of >>> Faith" by Sam Harris..w >>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743268083/qid=1117741009/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-0581227-6464648- >>>  >>>e@ >>> Read the book, open your mind and make your own conclusions. >> >>% >> And this paper by Richard Dawkins:o >>8 >> http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/04/30/dawkins/< >> (unless already registered you have to watch an ad first) >> >> S > F > Typical bullshit.  There is as much evidence that there is NOT a godG > as there is evidence that there is a god.  In either case, the numberyF > is zero.  The only intellegent/truthful people are those who say, "IH > don't know".  Imagine one tiny mudball having all the knowledge of the> > universe available.  Dawkins is as bad as those he despises. >e  : I guess that makes you one of Dawkins "Ignorant bigots" ??  	 Dr. Dweebm  A > As for the idiots that are in such a hurry to get to heaven, orW= > wherever, my only question is, "What are you waiting for?" s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:42:33 -0700l# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>oH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID( Message-ID: <opsrsq07pgzgicya@hyrrokkin>  K On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:30:40 +0200, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam>  h wrote:   > Dr. Dweeb wrote:G >> (a) He was syrian born canuck. (b) The US heisted him and posted himpG >> back to Syria with a "terrorist" label.  (c) The Syrians, being so    >> concernedK >> about the rise in international terrorism and wanting to do their bit toyJ >> curtail its evil spread, "tortured" this guy.  (d) Eventually, having   >> "madeD >> him talk" the Syrians posted him back to Canada as damaged goods.! >>  Is that the correct sequence?o* >>  Its the (c) that I fail to understand. >wJ > What is it find so difficult to understand.  It is well known that USA  H > in the later years have been flying people suspected of terrorism to  ' > countries known to torture prisoners.r  8 That's because it is illegal to do so in the USA  ...TIC   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:12:52 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>iH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID= Message-ID: <42a07375$0$78280$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>n   Tom Linden wrote:n4 > On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:30:40 +0200, Karsten Nyblad > <nospam@nospam.nospam> wrote:h >e >> Dr. Dweeb wrote:dH >>> (a) He was syrian born canuck. (b) The US heisted him and posted himF >>> back to Syria with a "terrorist" label.  (c) The Syrians, being so
 >>> concernedsE >>> about the rise in international terrorism and wanting to do theirk= >>> bit to curtail its evil spread, "tortured" this guy.  (d)c >>> Eventually, having "madeE >>> him talk" the Syrians posted him back to Canada as damaged goods. " >>>  Is that the correct sequence?+ >>>  Its the (c) that I fail to understand.  >>E >> What is it find so difficult to understand.  It is well known that?> >> USA in the later years have been flying people suspected of5 >> terrorism to countries known to torture prisoners.  > : > That's because it is illegal to do so in the USA  ...TIC  ' I have not followed any of this, so ...s  E the Syrians tortued him on behalf of the Americans, or the Americans n8 tortured him under the protective hands of the Syrians ?K I was not aware that Syria had become an ally in the "war on terror".  And  ( just what did this "torture" consist of?  H The latest obsession with torture is sort of interesting.  In denmark a H miltary person is being court marshalled for having denied a detainee a F glass of water in a single instance during an interrogation - this is J torture by definition apparently - and a professional soldier's career is J going to end.  So pulling out toenails, sticking bamboo sticks into small F bodily orifices and other such things we normally call torture is not G necessary for toture these days, in fact every parent in the world has eE "tortured" their children at some stage according to the new liberal w definitions.  	 Dr. Dweebi  	 Dr. Dweebt   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:51:56 -0400t' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> H Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID0 Message-ID: <11a12i5tfat72da@corp.supernews.com>   Dr. Dweeb wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: > 
 >>S wrote: >> >>>Dr. Dweeb wrote:K >>>r >>>uH >>>>For a deeper understanding of the fundamental issues, (and a book toH >>>>give you terminal insomnia) I suggest that everyone read "The End of >>>>Faith" by Sam Harris.lw >>>>http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743268083/qid=1117741009/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-0581227-6464648r >>>> >>>>@ >>>>Read the book, open your mind and make your own conclusions. >>>m >>>t% >>>And this paper by Richard Dawkins:n >>>e8 >>>http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/04/30/dawkins/< >>>(unless already registered you have to watch an ad first) >>>r >>>S >>F >>Typical bullshit.  There is as much evidence that there is NOT a godG >>as there is evidence that there is a god.  In either case, the number F >>is zero.  The only intellegent/truthful people are those who say, "IH >>don't know".  Imagine one tiny mudball having all the knowledge of the> >>universe available.  Dawkins is as bad as those he despises. >> >  > < > I guess that makes you one of Dawkins "Ignorant bigots" ??  H No more or less than every other inhabitant of this small insignificant B mudball.  I just realize how small and insignificant it really is.   -- a4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadj Vanderbilt, PA  15486h   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:53:53 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukH Subject: Re: HP to help governments with tracking users with NAtional ID) Message-ID: <d7q1v1$g8i$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>e  s In article <42a07375$0$78280$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> writes:n >Tom Linden wrote:5 >> On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:30:40 +0200, Karsten Nyblad   >> <nospam@nospam.nospam> wrote: >> >>> Dr. Dweeb wrote:I >The latest obsession with torture is sort of interesting.  In denmark a tI >miltary person is being court marshalled for having denied a detainee a nG >glass of water in a single instance during an interrogation - this is  K >torture by definition apparently - and a professional soldier's career is  K >going to end.  So pulling out toenails, sticking bamboo sticks into small RG >bodily orifices and other such things we normally call torture is not hH >necessary for toture these days, in fact every parent in the world has F >"tortured" their children at some stage according to the new liberal 
 >definitions.s >-  $ Is this the Annetmette Hommel case ?M If so then it wasn't just denying the prisoners water it was also forcing theNL prisoners to kneel in stressful positions for hours and verbally humiliating them.    seee  # http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7992871    Also according to   : http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15162894-1702,00.html  H Hommel refused to give them food and water or let them go to the toilet.  N Also the charges relate to three incidents during March, April and May of last year not just one incident.e          
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:00:05 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG! Subject: Re: Image IDENT locatione0 Message-ID: <00A44B92.5595C5EC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  u In article <d7pcb6$95b$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes:p >Hi, >S >Just out of curiosity. . .  >lM >Why, on Alpha,  is the IDENT field in different locations in the Image Filesr? >depending on whether th image is a Privileged Shareable Image?t >UK >Executable Image = 241, Shareable Image = 241, Privilege Shareable Image =n >249 >t >Regards Richard Maher >o >c  M Does it matter?  Use the proper symbols (EIH*$) and locate the EIHI$ section.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             i5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" i   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:27:30 +0000 (UTC)3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>y! Subject: Re: Image IDENT locationT? Message-ID: <d7per1$fjp$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>e   G'day Brian,   > Does it matter?o  E Not in the slightest. Have to admit to being curious about it though.m  = > Use the proper symbols (EIH*$) and locate the EIHI$ sectiong  * Didn't know they were available in DCL :-)  K (I need to give th IVP some more "real" work to do, but at the moment (as ai: busy-work place-holder) it checks the image ident fields.)  K I thought the IDENT would be a static location but I take it it's a pointertI to an offset? I haven't looked at the EIH stuff since you were helping meeG locate the image activation list stuff. I will revisit it in the futurea   Cheers Richard Maher  , <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A44B92.5595C5EC@SendSpamHere.ORG...J > In article <d7pcb6$95b$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, "Richard, Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes: > >Hi, > >e > >Just out of curiosity. . .  > >lI > >Why, on Alpha,  is the IDENT field in different locations in the Imageo FilestA > >depending on whether th image is a Privileged Shareable Image?a > >dK > >Executable Image = 241, Shareable Image = 241, Privilege Shareable Images =  > >249 > >t > >Regards Richard Maher > >n > >n >hF > Does it matter?  Use the proper symbols (EIH*$) and locate the EIHI$ section. >  > -- e2 > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >e6 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:00:11 GMTn" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG! Subject: Re: Image IDENT locationy0 Message-ID: <00A44BA3.1CA560CC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  u In article <d7per1$fjp$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes: 
 >G'day Brian,o >  >> Does it matter? > F >Not in the slightest. Have to admit to being curious about it though. >s> >> Use the proper symbols (EIH*$) and locate the EIHI$ section > + >Didn't know they were available in DCL :-)n  & $ SYMBOL/SET/EXECUTIVE EIHD$L_IMGIDOFF& $ SYMBOL/SET/EXECUTIVE EIHI$Q_LINKTIME$ $ SYMBOL/SET/EXECUTIVE EIHI$T_IMGNAM# $ SYMBOL/SET/EXECUTIVE EIHI$T_IMGID $ $ SYMBOL/SET/EXECUTIVE EIHI$T_LINKID% $ SYMBOL/SET/EXECUTIVE EIHI$L_MAJORID,% $ SYMBOL/SET/EXECUTIVE EIHI$L_MINORIDh $t $ SHOW SYMBOL EIH*=   EIHD$L_IMGIDOFF == 24   Hex = 00000018  Octal = 00000000030o;   EIHI$L_MAJORID == 0   Hex = 00000000  Octal = 00000000000e;   EIHI$L_MINORID == 4   Hex = 00000004  Octal = 00000000004s<   EIHI$Q_LINKTIME == 8   Hex = 00000008  Octal = 00000000010:   EIHI$T_IMGID == 56   Hex = 00000038  Octal = 00000000070;   EIHI$T_IMGNAM == 16   Hex = 00000010  Octal = 00000000020n;   EIHI$T_LINKID == 72   Hex = 00000048  Octal = 00000000110e   :D   -- eK VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMw            a5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:03:49 -0700q# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> Y Subject: Re: ITRC Natural Language Search (was Re: Third party Windows App to NFS map Opee( Message-ID: <opsrsr0nuozgicya@hyrrokkin>  1 On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:10:46 -0400, Peter Weaver  o& <newsgroup@weaverconsulting.ca> wrote:   > Tom Linden wrote:e  >>   SMG\$ERASE\_DISPLAY  works. >> ... >iB > No, it doesn't. The very first article returned does not containJ > SMG$ERASE_DISPLAY. The next three do contain the word, the next three do9 > not. I did not bother to look at any of the other hits.i >cF My error, your right, it is pretty lousy,  tried using it this morning   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:31:45 -0400$ From: "Hein" <hein.nomail@hp.nomail>+ Subject: Re: just getting started questionsu, Message-ID: <429e8b88$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  < "Anthony LaMark" <anthony@eXcSoftware.com> wrote in message & news:pXune.12759$fp.1800@fed1read05...	 > Hi All,t >pI > I have looked at the DCL commands to find the equivalent *nix commands a > for: >p< > 1.  vmstat  : to get CPU utilization for the entire systemG > 2.  ps -ef   : to get all jobs (and their cpu usage in real-time, noth= > cumulative) running on the entire system (not just my jobs)p >i( > Any suggestions?  Thank you very much.  M SMOP ? I know... a bit much for 'just getting started', but all that data is o# there available through SYS$GETRMI. J I'll include come code I hacked up over lunch if you ever want to go that  route.D It does pretty much what the cpu component for vmstat and iostat do.> First line is system grand total, next lines are per interval.M Interval time is an optional first argument, repeat count an optional second ,	 argument.s  K What problem are you really trying to solve? There may be better solutions a on VMS.eE There are lots of freeware and commercial product in the process/cpu   management area.   Hein.   ( $ define dcl$path sys$disk:[],sys$system $ cpustat 3 10 SYS USR IDLE   0   0  99i   0   0 100n
  Interrupt* $ spaw /nowait sea sys$library:*.* werfweg( %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process HEIN_239 spawned $ cont   4   7  87a  15  35  49j  16  39  44o  24  31  44e  17  36  45k  22  36  41h' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched8  38  15  45e   0   0 100t $k $    #include <rmidef>  #include <descrip> #include <string>I #include <ctype> #include <stdio> #include <ssdef> #define terminator 0,0,0,0F typedef struct { short len, cod; void *address; short *retlen; } item;9 typedef struct { unsigned int len; void *address; } desc;    main(int argc, char *argv[]) {h#     void    sys$exit(), lib$wait();e>     int     stat, repeat_count=1, sleep_time=10, sys$getrmi();     unsigned __int64J             total_last = 0, system_last = 0, user_last = 0, idle_last = 0,C             system_time, cpuintstk, cpumpsynch, cpukernel, cpuexec,l)             user_time, cpusuper, cpuuser,u              cpuidle, total_time;7     float   fleep_time, system_pct, user_pct, idle_pct;   C     item    getrmi_items[] = { 8, RMI$_CPUINTSTK,     &cpuintstk, 0a>                         ,8, RMI$_CPUMPSYNCH,    &cpumpsynch, 0=                         ,8, RMI$_CPUKERNEL,     &cpukernel, 0P;                         ,8, RMI$_CPUEXEC,       &cpuexec, 0d<                         ,8, RMI$_CPUSUPER,      &cpusuper, 0;                         ,8, RMI$_CPUUSER,       &cpuuser, 0nJ                         ,8, RMI$_CPUIDLE,       &cpuidle, 0, terminator };   if (argc > 1) {a&   sscanf( argv[1], "%d", &sleep_time);   repeat_count = -1;   }e if (argc > 2) {j)   sscanf( argv[2], "%d", &repeat_count );m   }u fleep_time = sleep_time;   printf ("SYS USR IDLE\n");- stat = sys$getrmi (0,0,0,getrmi_items,0,0,0);t   while (stat & 1) {  ?     system_time = cpuintstk + cpumpsynch + cpukernel + cpuexec;i#     user_time = cpusuper + cpuuser;t3     total_time = system_time + user_time + cpuidle;i  K     user_pct = 100 * (user_time - user_last)  / (total_time - total_last) ; C     system_pct = 100 * (system_time - system_last) / (total_time - s total_last);G     idle_pct = 100 * (cpuidle - idle_last) / (total_time - total_last);w       user_last = user_time;     system_last = system_time;     idle_last = cpuidle;     total_last = total_time;  C     printf ("%3.0f %3.0f %3.0f\n", system_pct, user_pct, idle_pct);h)     if (--repeat_count == 0) sys$exit(1);-     lib$wait (&fleep_time);,1     stat = sys$getrmi (0,0,0,getrmi_items,0,0,0);v     }t sys$exit (stat); }R   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:44:38 -0700 , From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com>+ Subject: Re: just getting started questions@+ Message-ID: <d7nnj7$lb0$1@news01.intel.com>a   Anthony LaMark wrote: 	 > Hi All,  > M > I have looked at the DCL commands to find the equivalent *nix commands for:t > < > 1.  vmstat  : to get CPU utilization for the entire system  > Not disagreeing with other followups, but if you're interested> specifically in CPU utilization for the entire system, in real
 time, use:        $ Monitor System   G > 2.  ps -ef   : to get all jobs (and their cpu usage in real-time, notg= > cumulative) running on the entire system (not just my jobs)   ? Again, while $ Show System gives cumulative process statistics,a7 it sounds like what you really are looking for is this:h        $ Monitor Process/TOPCPU   ( > Any suggestions?  Thank you very much.    < Note: I've spelled out the full DCL commands with their full?        parameter and qualifier names.  Abbreviate to taste. :-)s  
      HTH, Kenr -- a6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfieldf! D1C Automation VMS System Supportt" who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:59:00 -0400e' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> + Subject: Re: just getting started questions20 Message-ID: <119usle6mfqj359@corp.supernews.com>   Anthony LaMark wrote: 	 > Hi All,a > M > I have looked at the DCL commands to find the equivalent *nix commands for:0 > < > 1.  vmstat  : to get CPU utilization for the entire systemG > 2.  ps -ef   : to get all jobs (and their cpu usage in real-time, notD= > cumulative) running on the entire system (not just my jobs)z > ( > Any suggestions?  Thank you very much. >  >   D Are you interested in programming with the goal of obtaining system I information?  If so, I have a very old program that obtains and displays  H such.  By the time you understand it, and modify it for your particular D needs, you'll have a decent beginning understanding in working with  system information.n  I I hesitate to just post the code since it's rather large for a newsgroup  @ posting.  E-mail me if interested and I'll send you the program.   -- r4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadr Vanderbilt, PA  15486d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:33:46 -0700K From: Z <Z@no.spam>e1 Subject: Re: Problems installing DW-MOTIF and LATo* Message-ID: <qaJne.3713$QX1.3700@fe06.lga>   tomarsin2015@comcast.net wrote:h > HellohF > I am getting the following error when trying to install DWMOTIF on a! > 3100-85 with 64megs and VMS 7.3r ... " > %PCSI-F-NOSLOT, no PCB available   $ HELP/MESSAGE NOSLOTo   NOSLOT,  no PCB availablen  % Facility:     SYSTEM, System Servicesl  H Explanation:  The maximum number of processes that can be created at one&                time has been exceeded.  E User Action:  Wait for another process to be deleted, or increase the .                MAXPROCESSCNT system parameter.   $    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jun 2005 20:56:08 -0700i; From: "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" <tomarsin2015@comcast.net>(1 Subject: Re: Problems installing DW-MOTIF and LATeC Message-ID: <1117770968.562408.180130@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>l   Hello B Thanks for the help, I up the MAXPROCESSCNT and everything startedD working - even the LAT process started working. Thanks for the help. phillip    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jun 2005 15:39:42 -0700p" From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com Subject: Redirecting SMTPtC Message-ID: <1117751982.312959.183550@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>T  G     Our Spam blocker Guy is trying to restrict outgoing SMTP traffic to " the internet for security reasons.E     I use it quite a bit for internet paging direct from DCL scripts. C     The spam guy wants me to redirect my SMTP stuff through a localeD server SMTP.Bannerhealth.com.    I have absolutely no idea how to do  this, or even if it can be done,  ) ....but I know someone out there knows!!.j    ?     All suggestions (except rude and lewd) gratefully accepted.    Dave Baxter.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:58:08 GMTtL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: Redirecting SMTP.6 Message-ID: <00A44B14.55A1FEA3@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  h In article <1117751982.312959.183550@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com writes:H >    Our Spam blocker Guy is trying to restrict outgoing SMTP traffic to# >the internet for security reasons.iF >    I use it quite a bit for internet paging direct from DCL scripts.D >    The spam guy wants me to redirect my SMTP stuff through a localE >server SMTP.Bannerhealth.com.    I have absolutely no idea how to doa! >this, or even if it can be done,  >u* >....but I know someone out there knows!!. >d >u@ >    All suggestions (except rude and lewd) gratefully accepted.  H I suggest you tell us what TCP/IP package you're using, and whether (forM example) PMDF is involved.  Then we can tell you how to reroute your outbound-
 SMTP mail.  I (You might also be able to persuade your spamblocker guy that it's pretty-H unlikely your VMS systems will become part of a virus-compromised zombieJ network; you might further be able to persuade him that your systems won'tJ be used for inappropriate relaying (perhaps by configuring the systems to  disallow relaying).    -- Alant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:35:38 -0400I- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>0 Subject: Re: Redirecting SMTP , Message-ID: <429F97B8.F623EC3D@teksavvy.com>  # dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com wrote: E >     The spam guy wants me to redirect my SMTP stuff through a localt" > server SMTP.Bannerhealth.com.       A >     All suggestions (except rude and lewd) gratefully accepted.u     Lewd and rude suggestion:t  : Look at the documentation for HELP SET CONF SMTP /GATEWAY   H I am not 100% sure that this will be able to convert the smtp service toB route all outbound emails to a gateway SMTP server. This is not anF uncomon requirement in the corporate world so there shoudl be a way to& do this if the /gateway doesn't do it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:46:21 -0500-2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Redirecting SMTP1+ Message-ID: <429FA85D.9EDAAD62@comcast.net>   # dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com wrote:  > I >     Our Spam blocker Guy is trying to restrict outgoing SMTP traffic to0$ > the internet for security reasons.G >     I use it quite a bit for internet paging direct from DCL scripts.hE >     The spam guy wants me to redirect my SMTP stuff through a localcF > server SMTP.Bannerhealth.com.    I have absolutely no idea how to do" > this, or even if it can be done, > + > ....but I know someone out there knows!!.l > A >     All suggestions (except rude and lewd) gratefully accepted.n >  > Dave Baxter.  A Well, I taught my little Alpha here to forward outbound SMTP mail  through my IPS's mail server.h  , I run Process Software's Multinet. Try this:   $ mult conf/mail, MultiNet Mail Configuration Utility V4.2(27) [Reading in configuration from- MULTINET_ROOT:[MULTINET]START_SMTP_LOCAL.COM]l [Reading in configuration from. MULTINET_COMMON_ROOT:[MULTINET]START_SMTP.COM]! MAIL-CONFIG> SET FORWARDER mumble,     -- n David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:04:43 -0400e' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Redirecting SMTPo0 Message-ID: <11a0amkdocieuc3@corp.supernews.com>  # dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com wrote:dI >     Our Spam blocker Guy is trying to restrict outgoing SMTP traffic tot$ > the internet for security reasons.G >     I use it quite a bit for internet paging direct from DCL scripts.tE >     The spam guy wants me to redirect my SMTP stuff through a localeF > server SMTP.Bannerhealth.com.    I have absolutely no idea how to do" > this, or even if it can be done,  C If he wants it so much, perhaps he should provide the solution and rF knowledge.  Maybe he'll learn enough about VMS toat he'll go away and  quit bothering you.a   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadn Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:27:47 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Redirecting SMTP ) Message-ID: <d7pic3$bcj$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>o  Z In article <11a0amkdocieuc3@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:$ >dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com wrote:J >>     Our Spam blocker Guy is trying to restrict outgoing SMTP traffic to% >> the internet for security reasons.aH >>     I use it quite a bit for internet paging direct from DCL scripts.F >>     The spam guy wants me to redirect my SMTP stuff through a localG >> server SMTP.Bannerhealth.com.    I have absolutely no idea how to dor# >> this, or even if it can be done,t >cD >If he wants it so much, perhaps he should provide the solution and G >knowledge.  Maybe he'll learn enough about VMS toat he'll go away and h >quit bothering you. >rM Having the firewall block the smtp port (both incoming and outgoing) for all nO but the organisation's central mailhubs is pretty standard for most businesses e' and a growing number of ISPs nowadays. e  L Exactly how you configure the VMS system to do it will depend upon the mail & software being used on the VMS system.    
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University     >-- 5 >David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450z5 >Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596 ? >DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.come >170 Grimplin Road >Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jun 2005 03:15:00 -0700 # From: "Galen" <gltackett@gmail.com>0& Subject: Re: Terry Shannon passed awayB Message-ID: <1117793700.233657.22060@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  
 What a shock.   F It's been a long time since I saw Terry. Back when I used to regularlyD attend the fall DECUS symposia I always looked for an opportunity to@ stop and chat with him; and like many longtime DEC-->Compaq-->HP: customers I've been following his contributions for years.  D I will miss his presence. But most of all I will grieve for the loss# those closest to him have suffered.c  
 With sadness,k   Galenp   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:30:06 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Terry Shannon passed away, Message-ID: <429F6C49.43A36215@teksavvy.com>   Kenneth Farmer wrote:e > J > I received the news this morning.  Terry Shannon passed away Monday, May# > 30th.  He was cremated Wednesday.n    C Mr Shannon had been instrumental in marketing of VMS throughout they6 1980s and 1990s. His contributions were very valuable.  E Everytime I print labels on my LA75, I think of him. It was a CharlieaF Matco column that revealed that DEC had a  postscript-to-sixel productF and allowed me to fight with the local office who knew nothing of thatA and get the product that allows me to print postcript to an LA75.r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:02:42 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>-& Subject: Re: Terry Shannon passed away= Message-ID: <429f73f2$0$78284$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Kenneth Farmer wrote:i >>G >> I received the news this morning.  Terry Shannon passed away Monday,o( >> May 30th.  He was cremated Wednesday. >p >uE > Mr Shannon had been instrumental in marketing of VMS throughout thee8 > 1980s and 1990s. His contributions were very valuable. >yG > Everytime I print labels on my LA75, I think of him. It was a CharliexH > Matco column that revealed that DEC had a  postscript-to-sixel productH > and allowed me to fight with the local office who knew nothing of thatC > and get the product that allows me to print postcript to an LA75.t   Wow, you still have an LA75!L Mine wore out after many years of sterling service on my Rainbow, and later 
 my VS2000.  
 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jun 2005 08:16:06 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler):& Subject: Re: Terry Shannon passed away3 Message-ID: <DtnddXyND9t$@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  \ In article <429F6C49.43A36215@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  G > Everytime I print labels on my LA75, I think of him. It was a CharliesH > Matco column that revealed that DEC had a  postscript-to-sixel productH > and allowed me to fight with the local office who knew nothing of thatC > and get the product that allows me to print postcript to an LA75.   A    I had my coffee in my Charlie Matco mug this morning, and willtJ    continue to do so as long as it lasts (this is the second one, dropped &    the first one on a concrete floor).  L    Allways looked forward to his collumn back in the days when it came free J    in print, and looked forward to his contributions to the VMS community      via a wide variety of venues.    w   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:06:42 +10006 From: "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au>" Subject: The Soul of a New MachineX Message-ID: <8BAD914A0B8CA84C9E94187103A1AB9E05BE38@EX-TG2-PR.corporate.transgrid.local>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5681B.F4071740>. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablew   <-----Original Message-----w <From: Campbell Davide <Sent: Fri 6/3/2005 5:51 PMi <To: O'Brien Paddy# <Subject: The Soul of a New Machinen <=20 <Paddy,- <-= <A friend of mine in the IT industry mentioned a book called:h <@ <The Soul of a New Machine <by Tracy Kidder <uL <He mentioned it was out of print but there are used ones on sale at Amazon= com. <EL <I gather it is about how a company stole VMS and used it in their own prod= uct.=20  <e% <Have you heard of this story before?:    + Well, I haven't.  Does anyone know of this?n   Regards, Paddy    G ***********************************************************************a  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegedt@ and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20D addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of=20C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and adviseiD the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=207 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.a  C If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20-C immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20h? individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20HC authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid usesD> virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************e    ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5681B.F4071740d- Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1".+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablei  1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">  <HTML> <HEAD>L <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1">uK <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7226.0"> ( <TITLE>The Soul of a New Machine</TITLE> </HEAD>D <BODY>) <!-- Converted from text/plain format -->R  4 <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;-----Original Message-----<BR> &lt;From: Campbell David<BR>" &lt;Sent: Fri 6/3/2005 5:51 PM<BR> &lt;To: O'Brien Paddy<BR> * &lt;Subject: The Soul of a New Machine<BR> &lt;<BR> &lt;Paddy,<BR> &lt;<BR>D &lt;A friend of mine in the IT industry mentioned a book called:<BR> &lt;<BR>! &lt;The Soul of a New Machine<BR>" &lt;by Tracy Kidder<BR>p &lt;<BR>L &lt;He mentioned it was out of print but there are used ones on sale at Ama= zon.com.<BR> &lt;<BR>L &lt;I gather it is about how a company stole VMS and used it in their own p= roduct.<BR>A &lt;<BR>, &lt;Have you heard of this story before?<BR> <BR> <BR>4 Well, I haven't.&nbsp; Does anyone know of this?<BR> <BR> Regards, Paddy<BR> </FONT>) </P>   <FONT SIZE=3D3><BR>l <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>a <BR>G "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged<BR>tB and confidential information intended only for the use of the <BR>F addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of <BR>G this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise<BR> F the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, <BR>; distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.<BR>  <BR>E If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid <BR> E immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the <BR>sA individual sender except where the sender expressly and with <BR>hG authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses<BR>2B virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses<BR>  contained in any attachment.<BR> <BR>@ Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now<BR>( firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"<BR> <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>a </FONT>g </BODY>e </HTML>y) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5681B.F4071740--i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 05:51:24 -0400 2 From: Bob Willard <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net>& Subject: Re: The Soul of a New Machine0 Message-ID: <dICdnb_UBLUMtT3fRVn-uA@comcast.com>   O'Brien Paddy wrote: > <-----Original Message-----  > <From: Campbell David  > <Sent: Fri 6/3/2005 5:51 PM  > <To: O'Brien Paddy% > <Subject: The Soul of a New Machineh > <b	 > <Paddy,s > <g? > <A friend of mine in the IT industry mentioned a book called:  > <e > <The Soul of a New Machine > <by Tracy Kidder > <SG > <He mentioned it was out of print but there are used ones on sale at t
 > Amazon.com.i > <tI > <I gather it is about how a company stole VMS and used it in their own  
 > product. > <n' > <Have you heard of this story before?a >  > - > Well, I haven't.  Does anyone know of this?D >  > Regards, Paddy >  >  > I > ***********************************************************************  > E > "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privilegedb? > and confidential information intended only for the use of the B > addressees named above. If you are not the intended recipient ofE > this email, please delete the message and any attachment and adviseCB > the sender. You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,9 > distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.i > B > If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGridA > immediately. Any views expressed in this email are those of then> > individual sender except where the sender expressly and withD > authority states them to be the views of TransGrid. TransGrid uses@ > virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses > contained in any attachment. > > > Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now& > firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au" > I > ***********************************************************************w  B That book is about hardware, not software.  It is a history of theF development of a new 32-bit architecture and hardware at Data General.  E An excellent read, IMHO; it does a great job of capturing the feelingt- of development in a high-pressure atmosphere.a -- i Cheers, Bobe   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:57:29 GMTo5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)i& Subject: Re: The Soul of a New MachineL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0306050557320001@user-uinj45n.dialup.mindspring.com>  
 In articleM <8BAD914A0B8CA84C9E94187103A1AB9E05BE38@EX-TG2-PR.corporate.transgrid.local>,-7 "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au> wrote:t  - >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.c >R( >------_=_NextPart_001_01C5681B.F4071740/ >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"a, >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >F ><-----Original Message----- ><From: Campbell David ><Sent: Fri 6/3/2005 5:51 PM ><To: O'Brien Paddy $ ><Subject: The Soul of a New Machine ><=20y ><Paddy, ><> ><A friend of mine in the IT industry mentioned a book called: >< ><The Soul of a New Machineo ><by Tracy Kidder/ ><M ><He mentioned it was out of print but there are used ones on sale at Amazon=> >.com. ><M ><I gather it is about how a company stole VMS and used it in their own prod=A >uct.=20 ><& ><Have you heard of this story before? >a >., >Well, I haven't.  Does anyone know of this?  H Yes, I read it many years ago.  Probably right after it was published in paperback.  I enjoyed it a lot.v  I It's a fairly accurate account of the trials and tribulations of the teamIE that designed a new computer system.  At the moment, I can't remembere  which computer or which company.  > I think the author embellished a bit to make the story better.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:47:09 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>& Subject: Re: The Soul of a New Machine2 Message-ID: <NyWne.6412$CB3.2238@news.cpqcorp.net>  J Youngster.  Data General.  Next you'll tell me you don't remember Wang, or Apollo.       B "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspringdot.com> wrote in messageF news:rdeininger-0306050557320001@user-uinj45n.dialup.mindspring.com... > In article >mL <8BAD914A0B8CA84C9E94187103A1AB9E05BE38@EX-TG2-PR.corporate.transgrid.local> , 9 > "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au> wrote:l >2/ > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.i > >a* > >------_=_NextPart_001_01C5681B.F40717401 > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"5. > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >  > ><-----Original Message----- > ><From: Campbell David > ><Sent: Fri 6/3/2005 5:51 PM > ><To: O'Brien Paddyb& > ><Subject: The Soul of a New Machine > ><=20r
 > ><Paddy, > ><@ > ><A friend of mine in the IT industry mentioned a book called: > >< > ><The Soul of a New Machinet > ><by Tracy Kidderg > ><G > ><He mentioned it was out of print but there are used ones on sale ata Amazon=i > >.com. > ><I > ><I gather it is about how a company stole VMS and used it in their owng prod=.
 > >uct.=20 > ><( > ><Have you heard of this story before? > >b > > . > >Well, I haven't.  Does anyone know of this? >tJ > Yes, I read it many years ago.  Probably right after it was published in! > paperback.  I enjoyed it a lot.r >aK > It's a fairly accurate account of the trials and tribulations of the team G > that designed a new computer system.  At the moment, I can't remember " > which computer or which company. >r@ > I think the author embellished a bit to make the story better.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 07:51:14 -04001 From: "Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@Voltdelta.com>2& Subject: RE: The Soul of a New MachineB Message-ID: <37A773ADDA84D711A42700B0D0FC529C01960A9B@NYEXCHANGE2>  J This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand< this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56832.8B4398E6- Content-Type: text/plain  E No, this was a book about how Data General developed a new machine tojD compete with the VAX 11/780 in the late 70s.  It was a great read!      .  	   _____  t  < From: O'Brien Paddy [mailto:Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au] # Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 5:07 AMm To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " Subject: The Soul of a New Machine    a   <-----Original Message-----e <From: Campbell Davidg <Sent: Fri 6/3/2005 5:51 PMe <To: O'Brien Paddy# <Subject: The Soul of a New Machinea <  <Paddy,4 <S= <A friend of mine in the IT industry mentioned a book called:R <r <The Soul of a New Machine <by Tracy Kidder <tD <He mentioned it was out of print but there are used ones on sale at Amazon.com.e <fF <I gather it is about how a company stole VMS and used it in their own product. < % <Have you heard of this story before?     + Well, I haven't.  Does anyone know of this?J   Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************I  C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged-> and confidential information intended only for the use of the A addressees named above. If you are not the intended recipient of  C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advisetA the sender. You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,  7 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.r  A If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid D@ immediately. Any views expressed in this email are those of the = individual sender except where the sender expressly and with iB authority states them to be the views of TransGrid. TransGrid uses> virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************s    ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56832.8B4398E6p Content-Type: text/htmln+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   1 <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =b5 xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =I3 xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = * xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">   <head>9 <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =H charset=3Dus-ascii">    G <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">C <!--[if !mso]> <style> " v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}" o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}" w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}# shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}G </style> <![endif]-->( <title>The Soul of a New Machine</title> <style>a <!--  /* Font Definitions */1  @font-face0 	{font-family:Tahoma;b  	panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}  /* Style Definitions */)  p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal 
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 	{color:blue;i 	text-decoration:underline;}$ a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed 	{color:purple;_ 	text-decoration:underline;} pE 	{mso-margin-top-alt:auto; 	margin-right:0in; 	mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; 	margin-left:0in;B 	font-size:12.0pt;  	font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle18   	{mso-style-type:personal-reply; 	font-family:Arial; 
 	color:navy;}I @page Section1 	{size:8.5in 11.0in;! 	margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}  div.Section1 	{page:Section1;}0 -->e </style>   </head>   . <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>   <div class=3DSection1>  E <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span == style=3D'font-size:TI 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>No, this was a book about how Data =  General0D developed a new machine to compete with the VAX 11/780 in the late = 70s.&nbsp; It wask1 a great read!&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>l  E <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =- style=3D'font-size:,I 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=:     <div>a  ' <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =W2 style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><fontC size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>o  9 <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>e   </span></font></div>  C <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =r face=3DTahoma><span I style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</sp=  an></font></b><fonte size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =6 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> O'Brien2 Paddy [mailto:Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au] <br>G <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, June 03, =@	 2005 5:07  AM<br>4 <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> = Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com<br>>G <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> The Soul of a =u( New Machine</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>   </div>  @ <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span> style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>  @ <p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span= style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&lt;-----Original Message-----<br>h &lt;From: Campbell David<br>" &lt;Sent: Fri 6/3/2005 5:51 PM<br> &lt;To: O'Brien Paddy<br>t* &lt;Subject: The Soul of a New Machine<br> &lt;<br> &lt;Paddy,<br> &lt;<br>D &lt;A friend of mine in the IT industry mentioned a book called:<br> &lt;<br>! &lt;The Soul of a New Machine<br>d &lt;by Tracy Kidder<br>g &lt;<br>G &lt;He mentioned it was out of print but there are used ones on sale atn Amazon.com.<br>n &lt;<br>G &lt;I gather it is about how a company stole VMS and used it in their =e ownb product.<br> &lt;<br>, &lt;Have you heard of this story before?<br> <br> <br>4 Well, I haven't.&nbsp; Does anyone know of this?<br> <br>+ Regards, Paddy</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>   @ <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>9 <br>I ***********************************************************************<=  br>  <br>? &quot;This electronic message and any attachments may contain =  privileged<br>B and confidential information intended only for the use of the <br>E addressees named above. If you are not the intended recipient of <br>0G this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise<br>iE the sender. You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, <br>n; distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.<br>t <br>E If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid <br>iD immediately. Any views expressed in this email are those of the <br>A individual sender except where the sender expressly and with <br> F authority states them to be the views of TransGrid. TransGrid uses<br>B virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses<br>  contained in any attachment.<br> <br>@ Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now<br>- firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au&quot;<br>  <br>I ***********************************************************************<=  o:p></o:p></span></font></p>   </div>   </body>    </html>   ) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56832.8B4398E6--    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:42:25 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>o& Subject: Re: The Soul of a New Machine= Message-ID: <42a05031$0$78284$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>>   Bob Willard wrote: > O'Brien Paddy wrote: >> <-----Original Message----- >> <From: Campbell David >> <Sent: Fri 6/3/2005 5:51 PM >> <To: O'Brien Paddyt& >> <Subject: The Soul of a New Machine >> <
 >> <Paddy, >> <@ >> <A friend of mine in the IT industry mentioned a book called: >> < >> <The Soul of a New Machinei >> <by Tracy Kidder  >> <G >> <He mentioned it was out of print but there are used ones on sale aty >> Amazon.com. >> <E >> <I gather it is about how a company stole VMS and used it in their1 >> own product.d >> <( >> <Have you heard of this story before? >> >>. >> Well, I haven't.  Does anyone know of this? >>  H Its a good account of an impressive engineering project at Data General F developing their Eclipse line.  I read the book when it came out - an  excellent read.   K  believe the "stealing of VMS" alludes to an incident in the process where vG they buy a VAX 780 and pull it to bits to see what is int it an make a  C determination of how much it would cost to build a similar machine.n  K If you are a project manager, there are plentyu of good insights to be had $# about some pretty good engineering.k  
 Dr. Dweeb.   >> Regards, Paddyl >> >> >>J >> *********************************************************************** >>F >> "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged@ >> and confidential information intended only for the use of theC >> addressees named above. If you are not the intended recipient ofeF >> this email, please delete the message and any attachment and adviseC >> the sender. You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, : >> distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited. >>C >> If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid B >> immediately. Any views expressed in this email are those of the? >> individual sender except where the sender expressly and withuE >> authority states them to be the views of TransGrid. TransGrid uses A >> virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for virusesf >> contained in any attachment.u >>? >> Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is nowr' >> firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"- >>J >> *********************************************************************** >iD > That book is about hardware, not software.  It is a history of theH > development of a new 32-bit architecture and hardware at Data General. > G > An excellent read, IMHO; it does a great job of capturing the feelingf0 > of development in a high-pressure atmosphere.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:27:52 -0400 # From: sol gongola <sol@adldata.com>n& Subject: Re: The Soul of a New Machine+ Message-ID: <42A076F8.B797AC1D@adldata.com>m   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > a > In article <NyWne.6412$CB3.2238@news.cpqcorp.net>, "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> writes:rN > > Youngster.  Data General.  Next you'll tell me you don't remember Wang, or > > Apollo.p >  > Or Prime.,  	 or bendixa  B The wang I saw back then wasn't really a computer (as we know it).F   It was a main processor with multiple satellite calculator terminals4 	each with its own calculator type keyboard/display.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:46:50 -0700-, From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com>. Subject: Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation)+ Message-ID: <d7nnna$lb0$2@news01.intel.com>a   Bob Koehler wrote:f > In article <nvnr919o8q8aps4pf9ce4hov9kbfhotleq@4ax.com>, jlsue <jeffls-delete@sbcglobal.net> writes: > E >>I've never even had MIBCOMP, TFF, CXX, GENCAT, DSR, ACS on a system$* >>I've managed, so they hardly even count. >  > C >    If you don't have TFF (terminal fallback facility) on your VMSl6 >    system, you must be running something pretty old.   Khfairfi> sho sys/noprocL OpenVMS V7.3-2  on node RA2SRT   2-JUN-2005 12:45:22.98  Uptime  14 01:41:51. Khfairfi> write sys$output f$getsyi("HW_NAME") AlphaStation DS15 
 Khfairfi> tffcF %DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling   \TFF\t	 Khfairfi>r     Not old.  No TFF.  Nuff said.    	-Ken  --  6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield-! D1C Automation VMS System Support0" who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 20:47:09 GMT1! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com>.. Subject: Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation)8 Message-ID: <30su91de4vi463akc4tu5dv4r22n6piebu@4ax.com>  J On 2 Jun 2005 07:42:33 -0500, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:-  d >In article <NhghTHMNgZlU@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >t >> BIFF (on Unix) is ... >9D >   biff is named for Biff, a dog at the programmer's frat house whoB >   would bark when the mailman came.  So in the most mnemonic andG >   general manner possible, when he wanted BSD UNIX to tell him he hadD, >   new mail he wrote a utility called biff. >cG >   All computer users are born with implicit knowledge of Biff, aren't 	 >   they?n  O When I first started using UNIX I imagined that awk was short for awkward & note+ the initials of the writers of the program.    -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jun 2005 16:21:24 +0100M6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER). Subject: Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation), Message-ID: <42a08384$1@news.langstoeger.at>  Z In article <d7nnna$lb0$2@news01.intel.com>, Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com> writes: >Khfairfi> sho sys/noprociM >OpenVMS V7.3-2  on node RA2SRT   2-JUN-2005 12:45:22.98  Uptime  14 01:41:51 / >Khfairfi> write sys$output f$getsyi("HW_NAME")i >AlphaStation DS15 >Khfairfi> tffG >%DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spellingu >  \TFF\
 >Khfairfi> >e >Not old.  No TFF.  Nuff said.  0 You use the utility of the facility, don't you ?   $ tfu:==$TFU $ tfu.( VAX/VMS Terminal Fallback Facility (TFF) TFU>     bzw.   $ tfuo( OpenVMS Terminal Fallback Facility (TFF) TFU>   -- g Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:40:39 GMTe% From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> . Subject: Re: VMS API (possible unix emulation)E Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506031038490.22596@localhost.localdomain>p  ( On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Ken Fairfield wrote:   > Not old.  No TFF.w  $ $ HELP TFF says $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:TFU     -- -  B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free!g6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX)r2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:28:41 -0400a' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>g Subject: Re: [OT] AV for MAC0 Message-ID: <119uqshmb88om74@corp.supernews.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:e > In article <rJRxVseBJOln@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:i > C >>Are you saying that my Word 5.1A (the last one prior to Microsoft 2 >>adding virus-enabling technology) is a problem ? >  > I >    I didn't know MS ever issued a version of anything secure enough for 	 >    you.< >   ! Another arrow finds it mark.  :-)R   -- i4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadf Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:17:50 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>hY Subject: Re: [OT]: Petro-Euros and the decline of the US dollar- WAS: HP to help  governmh= Message-ID: <429f696e$0$78280$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>t   JF Mezei wrote:  > Someone wrote: >n> >>> Saddam, so in revenge, Saddam was going to use the Euro as? >>> the standard instead of the dollar.  If he had done so, theP? >>> US economy would be in shambles and everyone in soup lines.s >lD > Iraq, in the 1990s, was such a tiny supplier of oil that it had noG > leverage. Even if it decided to sell oil denominated in Fiji dollars,RD > it would still end up following the USD. Remember that there was aA > legal blockage on any oil exports from Iraq until 1998 when OFF C > began. (so Hussein had to sell his oil under the table, under the D > watchful eyes of the US and brits who let that happen, and Hussein? > could then set his own price in whatever currency he wanted).d >yG > Oil was tagged in USD because back then, the USD was seen as a stable.H > currency, more stable than Gold. Last year, that stability was greatly	 > eroded.- >- >- > John Smith wrote:r >0F >> Now if China wanted to get nasty and slam the US dollar, they could; >> force the issue by insisting on paying in Euros for oil,r >u >nE > The issue of China is more complex than that. Chinese have a LOT ofrG > money invested in US treasury bonds. Decoupling the Huan from the USDsH > would result in the USD going down vs Huan thus devaluing the huge USD+ > denominated investments the Chinese have.  >rD > The big question is whether the Chinese have begun to quietly pullF > their investments from USA in preparation for the devaluation of theD > USD against the Huan or if they are going to tie the uncoupling ofB > Huan with rising US interest rates to soften the blow to Chinese > investors. >bF > And it is quite possible that the next world currency may not be the > Euro but rather the Huan.,  G An interesting philosophical issue indeed, the Huan being managed by a vM communist regime and all that.  Given the state of Europe at the moment, the -L EUR is unlikely to step up to the plate and challenge the USD any time soon.   >mC >> Of course China would then be up against the Bush 'doctrine', aseF >> articulated on Sept. 17, 2002 in "National Security Strategy of the >> United States". .". >>A > China can do far more harm to the USA than USA can do to China.cG > Pulling out its investmenst in US treasury in one big swoop would nowo? > only drive the USD way down, but also force the government togG > significantly raise interest rates to attract other investors to fill  > the huge gap. a  
 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:29:00 -0400,' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>wY Subject: Re: [OT]: Petro-Euros and the decline of the US dollar- WAS: HP to help governmen0 Message-ID: <119uncsqg38c08a@corp.supernews.com>   John Smith wrote:a > GreyCloud wrote: >  >>JF Mezei wrote:  >> >>>Dave Froble wrote:a >>>  >>>> War, bad as it is, isF >>>>one thing.  Killing thousands (or more) people for whatever reason( >>>>requires a total disregard for life. >>>g$ >>>One needs to better define "war". >>>nF >>>What the USA has done in Iraq was not war. It was an unprovoked andD >>>illegal attack that killed far more iraqis and destroyed far more8 >>>infrastructure than what happened in the USA on 9-11. >>= >>But it was provoked, but not by what the media has reported ( >>or what Bush had spoke publicly about.> >>When Nixon got the US off the Gold standard in 1972, he also< >>made sure that the dollar was propped up by something else: >>instead of gold... oil.  He made sure that all oil sales8 >>were done in US Dollars.  The first gulf war irritated< >>Saddam, so in revenge, Saddam was going to use the Euro as= >>the standard instead of the dollar.  If he had done so, the = >>US economy would be in shambles and everyone in soup lines.i >  >  > L > You got that right.....only Iraq couldn't do it on its own and none of the5 > other Gulf countries would tag along with the idea.t > K > Now if China wanted to get nasty and slam the US dollar, they could forcesK > the issue by insisting on paying in Euros for oil, because unlike HP, the5L > Gulf countries know the customer is always right. It wouldn't take much to@ > get the USD to slide down 15% over the course of 12-18 months. > N > Of course China would then be up against the Bush 'doctrine', as articulatedM > on Sept. 17, 2002 in "National Security Strategy of the United States". ThenM > new strategy calls for pre-emptive action against hostile states and terrorHI > groups, and it states that the U.S. "will not hesitate to act alone, if,L > necessary, to exercise our right of self-defense by acting pre-emptively." > G > Of course the definition of 'hostile state' is open to debate but thehJ > document also states that America will exploit its military and economicL > power to encourage "free and open societies." It states for the first timeN > that the U.S. will never allow its military supremacy to be challenged as itN > was during the Cold War, nor its economic primacy - which is a veiled threatF > of war against any nation that 'challenges' the US in American eyes. > K > Only trouble is China can take 300 million killed - at that number the USs > ceases to exist.  E Gone far beyond off-topic.  Now the bounds of 'rediculous' are being uF challenged.  Why would you ever think the ratio would be near to 1:1? K Of course, with that much radioactivity, the entire planet dies.  End game.c   -- n4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roado Vanderbilt, PA  15486s   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.308 ************************