1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 11 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 323       Contents:
 RE: a sad day 
 Re: a sad day 
 Re: a sad day 
 Re: a sad day 
 Re: a sad day 
 RE: a sad day 
 Re: a sad day   Re: Best practices monthly post? Re: cluster over DSL Re: cluster over DSL8 Early EDI, electronic catalogs linked to purchase orders) Illegal health care ( was Re: a sad day ) 3 Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm 3 RE: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm 3 Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm 3 Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm  Re: minimize VMS footprint Re: minimize VMS footprint0 OpenVMS BootCamp (anonymous) pixes - Day 5/5 :-(4 Re: OpenVMS BootCamp (anonymous) pixes - Day 5/5 :-(4 Re: OpenVMS BootCamp (anonymous) pixes - Day 5/5 :-( Re: OT: Google groups 8 Question about reduced default RMS file extend parameter Re: vms and linux ( Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?( Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?( Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?( Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?( Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?# Re: why are alias names a bad idea?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:51:26 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: RE: a sad day$ Message-ID: <d8cjuu$voa$1@online.de>  
 In articleG <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB65096D@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>, * "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes:   H > Not sure what all of this has to do with OpeVMS, but since there was aF > semi-related earlier discussion in the thread about health benefits,+ > perhaps this is not totally out of place.   A Isn't VMS one of the leading operating systems in the health-care  market?  :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:37:42 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: a sad day, Message-ID: <42A9FA15.C5AC33AF@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:J > What was really at stake here in Canada with this decision is whether toE > allow those that can afford it to take advantage of private medical 
 > facilities.     G What I find interesting is that the "private facilities" cost more than C the standard facilities. You'd think that they'd be more efficient.   H And one must differentiate between a provately owned clinic that is partF of the health care system and a privately owned business that provides helat care services.  D In the first case, the clinic gets paid by the government or chargesE government approved rates for procedures and the patients get paid by G the government. In the second case, the clinic can charge whatever they E want and customers don't get a penny from the government because such ! clinic is not part of the system.   E Note that for stuff such as cosmetic surgery, which is not covered by F the health care plan, the doctors charge the patients real money. That# may be that 30% that was mentioned.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:43:19 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam>  Subject: Re: a sad day) Message-ID: <CZmqe.1003$Ub4.642@fe06.lga>    Rob Brown wrote:J >> In other news, I see the Canadian Supreme Court struck down the Ottawa G >> law prohibiting private health care. Seems the waiting lines in the  H >> Canadian health care system are so long that the Canadian people are F >> now clamoring to be allowed (it was _illegal_!) to pay for private 5 >> health care.  (NY Times: http://tinyurl.com/7qo65)   E > Some analysts say that it was only the Quebec law that was "struck   > down".  Time will tell.  > G > Apparently Canadian Health Care spending was already 70% public, 30%  @ > private, according to an interview with Roy Romanow yesterday.  B In any case, don't you think that waiting A FREAKING YEAR for hip ! surgery is a just a tad too long?   H National Health Care is a lot like Socialism ... it doesn't make people F better off, it makes them all worse off, but more equitably worse off.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:11:33 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com>  Subject: Re: a sad dayD Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506101509080.1392@localhost.localdomain>   On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Z wrote:   D > In any case, don't you think that waiting A FREAKING YEAR for hip # > surgery is a just a tad too long?    Yes.  C > National Health Care is a lot like Socialism ... it doesn't make  E > people better off, it makes them all worse off, but more equitably   > worse off.  E I think it is arguable that many who have "national health care" are    better off than those who don't.  ' (Pretty far off topic by now, I think.)      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:27:11 -0400 * From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfine@nospam.com> Subject: Re: a sad day/ Message-ID: <pa6dneSFwcgHsjffRVn-2A@rogers.com>     > Main, Kerry wrote:   / >>From: Rob Brown [mailto:mylastname@gmcl.com]   >>>On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Z wrote:  >>C >>>In other news, I see the Canadian Supreme Court struck down the  G >>>Ottawa law prohibiting private health care. Seems the waiting lines  D >>>in the Canadian health care system are so long that the Canadian E >>>people are now clamoring to be allowed (it was _illegal_!) to pay  A >>>for private health care.  (NY Times: http://tinyurl.com/7qo65)  >>> E >>Some analysts say that it was only the Quebec law that was "struck   >>down".  Time will tell.  >> Jerome Fine replies:  B I don't often reply to any of these discussions, however, it seems? helpful if I point out a few of the "broken telephone" aspects:   8 (a)  The article SPECIFICALLY stated it was a QUEBEC law> (provincial or state law for the US residents reading this) as: opposed to Ottawa law which would be federal (since OttawaB is the capital of Canada).  In fact, I understand that health care? is an exclusive interest of the provinces although the Canadian @ federal government has an interest since it provides health care@ funds to the provinces.  Further, since each province implementsD its own health care differently (either less or in some cases more),= there are as many health care programs as there are provinces > and each is funded in a different manner although public fundsA are a major source in each program - both provincial and federal.   G >>Apparently Canadian Health Care spending was already 70% public, 30%  @ >>private, according to an interview with Roy Romanow yesterday. >>C (b)  In Canada, the current major debate is over a two tired health ? care system vs a single government run system - or at least the B general public is led to believe.  While I can't dispute the aboveD 70% / 30% split, at the very least I suggest that without a detailed? breakdown, the split figures are probably EXTREMELY misleading. B Basically, the Canadian system is split along the following lines:  6 (a) Standard (ward) care in hospitals - totally publicH (b) Semi-private hospital rooms where standard ward care is 4 to a room 	 - private # (c) Private hospital room - private F EXCEPTIONS - If patient isolation is essential (like infection), then  still public  A (d) Necessary medical physician services which are defined a bit  % differently in each province - public I (e) Non-necessary medical physician services (such as cosmetic) - private   H (f) Extra services such as nurses are on a case by case basis - usually  private   C (g) Rehabilitation care after a hospital surgery is usually mostly   covered - public  B (h) Long term care, especially elderly, is partially covered.  In  Ontario (whichK is the only province I understand), seniors on ONLY the old age pension and F the supplement (i.e. without any CCP which is sort of similar but not  the sameJ as Social Security in the US) have those amounts used to cover the nursingJ home cost and receive a small in pocket stipend in addition each month.  A. detailed statement would require a whole book.  G (i) Drug costs do not seem to be covered by any federal program.  Each   provinceB seems to cover seniors, but again I understand only Ontario where  seniors (age 65)@ are covered for approved drugs - almost all essential drugs are  approved.  ThereC is a very small deductible - extremely small for those on very low  
 incomes.  For B individuals less than 65, especially those working for most large  corporationsE with health care coverage, there is usually a drug plan of some sort.   I So when the 70% / 30% split is noted, probably a large portion of the 30% E is non-essential cosmetic surgery, private hospital rooms, drugs and   upgradedG long term care.  Note that for those individuals on social assistance,   completeD health coverage plus dental coverage is provided as far as I know.  	 Until the D 30% details are specified, I would tend to assume that the above is  likely true.  G >Not sure what all of this has to do with OpeVMS, but since there was a E >semi-related earlier discussion in the thread about health benefits, * >perhaps this is not totally out of place. >  Of course it is!!!!!!!!!!!  C >Interesting review in local paper after the Canadian Supreme Court $ >decision was handed down yesterday. > H >Essentially it stated that of the top 30 developed countries, there areE >only 2 that have not yet officially adopted the concept of universal D >health care for all of its citizens - Mexico and the United States. >    > + Which paper - I did not see that breakdown.   I >What was really at stake here in Canada with this decision is whether to D >allow those that can afford it to take advantage of private medicalF >facilities. There are debateable pro's-n-con's of doing this, but theH >article went on to point out that the other countries that have adoptedD >universal medical aid for their citizens, only Canada did not allowI >citizens to access private medical facilities as an option to the public  >health care system. > G Actually, Quebec does allow that, as far as I understand, ONLY that the I insurance companies are not allowed to be in the middle.  Other provinces K have a somewhat different solution.  But essentially, for medically covered G public services, private care is restricted to those who can afford to   go outH of the country - mainly to the US - although for services deemed coveredI on a case by case basis, the US visit is sometimes approved and paid for.   J So your statement "Canada did not allow citizens to access private medicalG facilities" is a bit inaccurate although essentially correct in actual   practice forH all but the billionaires for whom health care is like a restaurant meal  for the  millionaire.  G >Hence, the article stated that this decision would either speed up the I >process to allow private facility access or force the multiple layers of F >Govt to fix waiting times. Given that the latter will require massiveH >amounts of funding, I suspect that the former (with guidelines and someB >restrictions) will gain a lot of momentum with this Supreme Court
 >decision. > > This is the portion I take great exception to and the specific< reason I am posting this reply.  I just can't understand why; the health care system requires so much more funds to RUN a A system with wait times that are, for want of a better suggestion, A at about 20% of the current wait times.  Surely far less than 10% B of the individuals waiting die in the interim - probably less than< 1% actually die.  But even at 2%, that means that 98% of the= services must still be delivered.  I agree that it would take A a significant ONE-TIME expense to reduce the wait times, but once @ the backlog is eliminated, surely the same number of individuals? are then going through the system at the same approximate rate. > After all, the wait times did not increase by a factor of 5 inB just one year.  It probably took 10 to 20 years for that to occur.  B Anyone reading this post is likely to know a bit of queuing theoryA or at least know the basic concepts.  If a bank branch can handle @ 200 customers a day or 20 customers an hour (over a 10 hour day)? with 2 tellers, then increasing the customers to 210 a day will > cause a one day delay after one month.  But after the delay is? eliminated (just double the tellers for ONE day), the bank only < needs 1/10 an extra teller or 5% more - probably the manager> helping out for 1 hour a day - with the loans officer and bank; manager filling in for ONE day to eliminate the backlog.  I > realize this analogy is far too simplistic for the health care@ backlog in all parts of Canada, but it certainly is not a matterA of doubling the staff and then keeping them all in place forever, A ESPECIALLY after the backlog is eliminated.  And it does not take - a rocket scientist to understand the analogy.   C In Ontario over the previous 15 years when there was a Conservative D government (read Republican for the US) in place until about 2 yearsC ago, the health care system was reduced and major layoffs of nurses @ occurred.  While some reduction was justified (40 years ago whenA my sons were born, a hospital say was usually 5 to 7 days whereas A now it is often 1 or 2 days are rarely more than 3 days) and many C surgeries are done without an overnight stay or at the most 1 night @ as opposed to many days, the percentage of surgeries is probably? higher offsetting baby stays even if the birth rates are lower. > So without a public discussion of the detailed figures which I= have noticed are never made available by the media since such @ information would confuse the issues, it is almost impossible to@ really understand just how much it would cost to RUN the current= health care system after waiting times have been reduced, let : alone the ONE-TIME cost to reduce waiting times.  And that= assumes that the system is left to its inefficient state with ? resources allocated to supporting things such as long term care < in high cost hospitals rather than nursing homes because the3 funds for nursing homes are not properly allocated.   < OH  WELL!!!!!!!!!!!  Such is the normal state of running any: society when individuals are interested first in their own= jobs rather than making the system as a whole more efficient. < This happens quite naturally when the leaders are drawn from: the same pool of people as the average - oooppppps - maybe> more self interested and drawn to the jobs of power and money?     Sincerely yours,   Jerome Fine    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:29:16 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: a sad dayR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB650997@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----4 > From: Jerome H. Fine [mailto:jhfine@nospam.com]=20 > Sent: June 10, 2005 8:27 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: Re: a sad day >=20  	 [snip...]    >=20E > >Interesting review in local paper after the Canadian Supreme Court & > >decision was handed down yesterday. > > 8 > >Essentially it stated that of the top 30 developed=20 > countries, there areG > >only 2 that have not yet officially adopted the concept of universal F > >health care for all of its citizens - Mexico and the United States. > > =20  > > - > Which paper - I did not see that breakdown.  >=20  , National Post Article - pg A18 June 10,2005: "The Writing is on the Wall"  H Quote "Canada is the only nation committed to providing access to a fullA range of health care services to all citizens regardless of their E ability to pay. Of the world's 30 most developed nations, all but two E (Mexico and the United States) agree with the principles of universal E access. But some of these 28 nations manage to provide such universal D access without waiting times for treatment; some do so with superior= health outcomes; most provide better access to physicians and G technology; and none spends more than we do on a per capita basis." End  quote.    @ > >What was really at stake here in Canada with this decision=20 > is whether to F > >allow those that can afford it to take advantage of private medicalH > >facilities. There are debateable pro's-n-con's of doing this, but the@ > >article went on to point out that the other countries that=20 > have adoptedF > >universal medical aid for their citizens, only Canada did not allow@ > >citizens to access private medical facilities as an option=20 > to the public  > >health care system. > > > > Actually, Quebec does allow that, as far as I understand,=20 > ONLY that the > > insurance companies are not allowed to be in the middle. =20 > Other provinces > > have a somewhat different solution.  But essentially, for=20 > medically covered A > public services, private care is restricted to those who can=20  > afford to=20 > go out> > of the country - mainly to the US - although for services=20 > deemed covered@ > on a case by case basis, the US visit is sometimes approved=20 > and paid for.  >=20? > So your statement "Canada did not allow citizens to access=20  > private medical A > facilities" is a bit inaccurate although essentially correct=20  > in actual=20 > practice for< > all but the billionaires for whom health care is like a=20 > restaurant meal=20	 > for the  > millionaire. >=20? > >Hence, the article stated that this decision would either=20  > speed up the; > >process to allow private facility access or force the=20  > multiple layers ofH > >Govt to fix waiting times. Given that the latter will require massive9 > >amounts of funding, I suspect that the former (with=20  > guidelines and some D > >restrictions) will gain a lot of momentum with this Supreme Court > >decision. > > @ > This is the portion I take great exception to and the specific> > reason I am posting this reply.  I just can't understand why= > the health care system requires so much more funds to RUN a C > system with wait times that are, for want of a better suggestion, , > at about 20% of the current wait times.=20  H Well, here are a few reasons that I have heard (not sure these are true)0 are some of the reasons for the long wait times:H - shortage of trained tech's that only allow MRI's and other specializedF equipment to be run 8 hrs/day Mon-Fri. If the demand is there, why areE they not focussing on training more tech's to allow these machines to 
 work 24x7?H - shortage of Doctors. However, there are many Dr's from other countriesG that are working in Canada as nurses or worse - not even in the medical H area as the current Canadian Medical associations have an extremely longG processes to get certified here in Canada - thus ensuring current Dr.'s & remain high in demand and get big $'s.B - exponentially increasing price of drugs in the industry that areH protected by 20 year+ patents. If this is a prob in Canada, one can justH imagine how big an issue this is in the US where big drug companies have
 a huge lobby. G - and my personal vent - lack of auditing and standardization. When has @ anyone heard of a hospital being audited to ensure processes andC procedures are optimal? When has anyone ever heard of two hospitals E focussing on reducing duplication of effort, redundant systems? Heck, F even something as relatively simple as a hospital registration card is. different for almost every hospital you go to.  A There is no such thing as a single "best" medical system as every / countries medical system has its challenges.=20   ? Unfortunately, Medicare is such a sacred cow in Canada that few F politicians are willing to stick their necks out to make any proposals! that might change the status quo.    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:34:12 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: a sad day0 Message-ID: <11aktrk7f0ba749@corp.supernews.com>   Z wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: > D >>> Forbes never ever endorsed an absolutely flat tax w/o an income E >>> exclusion at lower levels.  In fact, I've never ever seen ANYONE  / >>> present a flat tax with the first $1 taxed.  >  > I >> Try the Pennsylvania Income Tax.  Of course, you round to the nearest  G >> dollar, so 2.? % of up to $20 or so will let you round down to $0.   # >> But, it's applied to everything.  >  > 
 > It's 3.07%.  >  > PA 2004 PA-40 Form: C > http://www.revenue.state.pa.us/revenue/lib/revenue/2004_pa-40.pdf  >  > PA 2004 PA-40 Instructions: H > http://www.revenue.state.pa.us/revenue/lib/revenue/2004_pa-40_inst.pdf >  > PA 2004 Schedule SP:E > http://www.revenue.state.pa.us/revenue/lib/revenue/2004_pa-40sp.pdf  > I > See the PA 2004 PA-40 form and note the tax forgiveness credit item on   > lines 19a, 20 and 21.  > K > See PA 2004 PA-40 Instructions (p.19, pps.31-32) and PA 2004 Schedule SP  E > and note that the sliding tax forgiveness tables on page 32 of the   > instructions.  > I > A single taxpayer with no children and $6,500 in eligible income (from  H > PA 2004 Schedule SP) gets a full 1.0% tax forgiveness and pays only a  > 2.07% tax rate.  > H > A married taxpayer with 2 children gets a 1.0% forgiveness on $32,000. > " > PA state income tax is not flat.  3 I knew I should have stayed out of this discussion.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jun 2005 15:20:02 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ) Subject: Re: Best practices monthly post? 3 Message-ID: <QwcsRsz3YdG3@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <42a97214$0$20233$626a14ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> writes:  G > This leads me to ask your advice on posting here in c.o.v. a monthly  F > "best practices" message which would give some info to the newbies, * > among them that link to the ITRC Forums. >  > What do you think?  4 I think such a message should also mention DECUServe9 (or Encompasserve, your choice) as a place to get answers  with minimal extraneous noise.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:48:55 +0000 (UTC) - From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)  Subject: Re: cluster over DSL . Message-ID: <d8cnan$o2u$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   "Gorazd Kikelj" <gorazd.kikelj@nospam.hp.com> writes in article <42a898bf@usenet01.boi.hp.com> dated Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:31:10 +0200:  > N >"Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" <helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de> 0 >wrote in message news:d8bagd$6h3$3@online.de...F >> With 6 kb/s DSL being offered dor EUR 25 per month, I was wonderingK >> whether, when 10 kb/s (in both directions) is possible, one could set up 8 >> a VPN and set up a cluster with SCS running over DSL. >> > I >If you can bridge the connection. SCS is not routable, so you need some  N >encapsulation magic to transfer ethernet packets between sites. But it would $ >be fine idea to make this possible.  J I bridged a connection via frame relay once, and added a satellite node toH the cluster from a remote site.  Then, just at the wrong time, the frameK relay connection went down.  It crashed the entire cluster, even though the  satellite node had 0 votes.   J The moral:  You can do it, but having 1 cluster per site is more reliable.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:32:26 -0500 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>  Subject: Re: cluster over DSL 2 Message-ID: <42AA14FA.7000204@applied-synergy.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: F > With 6 kb/s DSL being offered dor EUR 25 per month, I was wondering K > whether, when 10 kb/s (in both directions) is possible, one could set up  7 > a VPN and set up a cluster with SCS running over DSL.   A Try it.  If it works, great!  Just don't ask for support.  <grin>   I FWIW: VPN doesn't have anything to do with this.  You need to find a way    to bridge SCS over the DSL line.  F My expectation is that it would work, although it would probably have  "interesting" failure modes.  H I once witnessed a satellite node accidentally joining a cluster over a B couple of 19.2Kb serial lines.  It was very slow, but it did work K without problems until we shut it down and fixed the configuration problem.    --  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jun 2005 13:03:14 -0700 From: grs.research@gmail.comA Subject: Early EDI, electronic catalogs linked to purchase orders C Message-ID: <1118433794.551009.132670@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   B I'm searching for early references (before 1994) to a computerizedB system that enables someone to view different electronic catalogs,@ choose items and have requisitions and purchase orders generatedA electronically for each of the items even though they may be from F different suppliers. Information on inventory may also be available to the system.   E Think of a big corporation that works with many different vendors. An E employee can look at each vendor's electronic catalog and chooses the F items they need. The system then generates the required requisition or2 purchase orders for each of the different vendors.  9 I'm thinking early supply chain systems may have had this 4 functionality, esocially in the automotive industry.  E Any info or leads would be appreciated. Feel free to post or email to  ask questions. Thanks.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jun 2005 11:25:48 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) 2 Subject: Illegal health care ( was Re: a sad day )- Message-ID: <9BRHO3OWErP$@malvm7.mala.bc.ca.>   E In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506101005330.30765@localhost.localdomain>, *    Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes: > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Z wrote: > C >> In other news, I see the Canadian Supreme Court struck down the  G >> Ottawa law prohibiting private health care. Seems the waiting lines  D >> in the Canadian health care system are so long that the Canadian E >> people are now clamoring to be allowed (it was _illegal_!) to pay  A >> for private health care.  (NY Times: http://tinyurl.com/7qo65)   @    Well of course this is not correct. Canadians have always hadB the ability to travel to the US for health care if they're willingC to pay the cost. That fact that so few of them do it discredits the = allegation that Canadians are "clamoring to be allowed to pay D for private health care". Those numbers are dwarfed by the number of> US residents who travel to Canada ( or Mexico ) for affordable drugs.   > E > Some analysts say that it was only the Quebec law that was "struck   > down".  Time will tell.  > G > Apparently Canadian Health Care spending was already 70% public, 30%  @ > private, according to an interview with Roy Romanow yesterday. >   ?    What was in fact struck down is a law banning private health G INSURANCE. There are already a number of private health care facilities F in Canada, but I believe the goverments policy is that a facility thatD offers fee for service can not also bill the public system for otherI patients - so not that many of them can find enough Canadians "clamoring" . for private health care to make it profitable.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jun 2005 12:52:15 -05004 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow)< Subject: Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm3 Message-ID: <bJsE7s1XsClc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   s In article <42a98ea3$0$67258$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> writes:  > Galen wrote: >> Karsten Nyblad wrote: >>> Main, Kerry wrote: >>>  >>>> ... >>> G >>> Hmm.  Every month has its The Inquirer story about how Intel and HP @ >>> kill their Itanic projects, while moving their talented chip >>> designers to x86.  >>D >> Wow. If HP is able to move their talented chip designers to IntelB >> every month, then HP must itself have a pretty steady influx of >> talented chip designers!  >> >> :-) > I > Not that I have been following too closely, but does HP have any left ?    Last week or next week?   1 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" & 		>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<K Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  H         It had become an universal and almost uncontroverted position inG         the several States, that the purposes of society do not require E         a surrender of all our rights to our ordinary governors; that H         there are certain portions of right not necessary to enable themE         to carry on an effective government, and which experience has F         nevertheless proved they will be constantly encroaching on, ifC         submitted to them; that there are also certain fences which G         experience has proved peculiarly efficacious against wrong, and H         rarely obstructive of right, which yet the governing powers haveC         ever shown a disposition to weaken and remove. Of the first H         kind, for instance, is freedom of religion; of the second, trialF         by jury, habeas corpus laws, free presses. -- Thomas Jefferson   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:37:50 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> < Subject: RE: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarmR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB650990@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----3 > From: David Mathog [mailto:mathog@caltech.edu]=20  > Sent: June 10, 2005 11:49 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: >=20A > > However, other vendors that have also made recent positive=20  > announcements & > > wrt to Itanium's future potential- > >=208 > > - SGI Announces new Itanium Workstation: April, 2005 >=20@ > Now there's a vendor known for making wise business decisions! >=20 > <SNIP> >=20 >=20B > > And in case, anyone thinks Intel is hurting right now which=20 > might make? > > them change any strategies they have currently in place,=20  > their business/ > > update today certainly indicates otherwise: D > > http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20050609corp.htm> > > "SANTA CLARA, Calif., June 9, 2005 -- Intel Corporation=20 > expects revenue A > > for the second quarter to be between $9.1 billion and $9.3=20 
 > billion, as C > > compared to the previous range of $8.6 billion to $9.2 billion, E > > primarily driven by ongoing strong demand for notebook products."  >=20: > Even so, Itanium is a money pit and Intel knows it.  AMDF > called Intel's Itanium bluff and Intel is in the process of throwing? > in those cards. It's clear to all but the true believers that B > there finally is an "industry standard" architecture and it's=20 > x86. Apple=20 E > migrating to x86 just further confirms it.  (That doesn't mean that J > Intel is the industry standard though, other than by marketing clout,=20? > since there are also x86 processors from AMD and VIA.)  HP=20  > will probably B > keep its head firmly in the sand and erase the remaining VMS,=20 > HPUX, and A > even Tandem markets.  Maybe someday somebody at HP will ask:=20  > what from=20> > the CUSTOMER'S perspective is the advantage of running on=20 > Itanium over=20  > x86? >=20  3 As I said earlier, the game has only just begun.=20   F Competition is a good thing and AMD is doing a great job in some areasG right now. However, as the financial analysts and press has highlighted B recently, their overall financials need to improve rather quickly.  F Imho, Itanium is a way for Intel to both break out of the x86 back andF forth race with AMD and to firmly position their future offerings over
 Powerx.=20   Will they be able to do it?J   Time will tell.    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:44:18 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>o< Subject: Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm, Message-ID: <42AA09AA.9A0A3A07@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:H > Imho, Itanium is a way for Intel to both break out of the x86 back andH > forth race with AMD and to firmly position their future offerings over	 > Powerx.y  H The problem is that the race between AMD and Intel for 8086 supremacy isG moving the 8086 up faster than IA64 can move. And the quickened pace ofnF advances (no longer just clock speed bumps) requires that Intel put in2 more resources onto the 8086 to keep up with AMD.   E The price parity that the HP apologists used to talk about in 2007 iseA probably Intel dumping IA64s at same price as 8086 , after it hasrG announced the phasing out of IA64 and during the transition period from- IA64 to 8086 for HP and SGI.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jun 2005 23:07:47 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)p< Subject: Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm3 Message-ID: <q$GYxo47ZlZ0@eisner.encompasserve.org>8  k In article <42a95ead$0$67263$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  > Rob Young wrote:_ >> In article <42A8C6E7.DF1918EC@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:e- >> 	No more than the port of HP/UX and NSK toiA >> 	8086 is inevitable.  Enterprise architectures aren't switchedi: >> 	out whimsically - it costs way too much money and your >> 	customer base gets antsy., > D > True.  However, how many companies do you think has a strategy of J > betting their business on Itanic?  It would be lightheaded to have such F > a strategy before Itanic has demonstrated that it can generate more H > profit to Intel than what it costs in ongoing development, marketing, H > etc.  Thus HP can move away from Itanic now, but the longer they wait # > the more customers will be angry.t  A 	Paul DeMone has a good read on IPF , few dispute his projectionse< 	as they aren't wildly optimistic.  Here is a recent read of 	his:h  j http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=3180&Thread=78&roomID=11&entryID=47485  G  In 2004 over 150k I2s shipped in around 30k systems worth about $1.5B.e   [snip]]   O By HP's predictions within two years it will be shipping roughly three times asaN much IPF gear or roughly 75k systems worth over $3B a year. In two years it isL quite credible that SGI could be selling 10k to 15k systems worth over $1B aK year. So HP and SGI alone could bring IPF to about 25% RISC market share byc 2007.n  K What is harder to predict is how well the rest of the IPF OEMs will do. ThenN best prospects are NEC, Fujitsu, Hitachi, Bull, and Unisys. Dell is a bit of aM dark horse. Montecito will make its 8870 based systems a lot more competitive.O but it isn't apparent that either potential IPF customers want to buy from DellCO or that Dell really wants to sell IPF gear to them. A best case scenario IMO isaO that within 2 years the rest of the IPF pack would be selling about 20k systemsn a year worth about $1B.o  N For the sake of argument let's say these various scenarios pan out and in 2007L IPF has exceeded 110k systems worth $5B a year in sales. That is roughly theM space peviously occupied by PA-RISC, Alpha, and MIPS combined. For Intel thisdL scenario translates to sales of over 500k IPF MPUs worth about $1.0-1.2B andF profits of over $0.5B ($1.0B - $400m in R&D cost - $60m silicon cost).   ---   C 	By Paul's estimation (see another RWT thread) Itanium has reached  D 	break-even.  We'll see how well it does profit-wise other the next B 	few years.  But the PA-RISC , Alpha and MIPS lifeboats have been E 	burned - Itanium has a pretty lucrative captive market so it should 1 	do more than ok.    				Robs   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:07:54 +0000 (UTC)0- From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)2# Subject: Re: minimize VMS footprintt. Message-ID: <d8coea$pcc$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes in article <05061008545381_20200298@antinode.org> dated Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:54:53 -0500 (CDT):$ >From: BC Berry <nobody@spamcop.net> >tF >> My plan - get rid of the development stuff, sample files, etc. WhatI >> I'm trying to determine is what's development and what's not. E.g. Are D >> any *.*LB or *.h or *.c or etc. files in SYS$LIBRARY required forF >> anything other than compiling and linking? I was hoping there was aG >> list somewhere indicating which files/libraries are used at boot/run-( >> time as opposed to compile/link time. > H >   The C compiler documentation suggests that it does "#include <>" forG >system header files from text libraries, and that the loose ".h" files0G >are optional, for your convenience only, so you should be able to losee7 >those and gain a few MB, even on a development system.,  K And for the runtime systems, get rid of the .TLB files too.  And everything9 in [SYSHLP].    I There are two kinds of .OLB files -- object and shareable image.  Objects J can be deleted, except you might have to put them back for certain product installs.  a  G Anything in [SYS$LDR] that is not used.  In order to test all this, I'dlJ suggest a system with 2 bootable disks.  Copy the baseline system from theI "development" to the "test" disk, then run a procedure which deletes someiI set of files from the test disk.  Then boot from the test disk and see if>; everything works.  Modify the delete procedure accordingly.   0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:37:54 -0700U, From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com># Subject: Re: minimize VMS footprintt+ Message-ID: <d8d4o2$ud3$1@news01.intel.com>u   Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote:C > In article <bi1ja15teaem8olbfdq1nris7vucq4hquo@4ax.com>, BC Berryo > <nobody@spamcop.net> writes: [...]dE >>My plan - get rid of the development stuff, sample files, etc. WhatmH >>I'm trying to determine is what's development and what's not. E.g. AreC >>any *.*LB or *.h or *.c or etc. files in SYS$LIBRARY required for E >>anything other than compiling and linking? I was hoping there was aaF >>list somewhere indicating which files/libraries are used at boot/run' >>time as opposed to compile/link time.a >>B >>I like the $35 idea. However, with 300+ stations plus spares. My >>pockets aren't that deep.a >  > G > You must not forget that *.c can be a part of vmsinstalable images...l  A Eberhard, what are you talking about here???  While VMS certainlybB allows one to rename MY_GREAT_PROGRAM.EXE to DONT_LOOK_IN_THERE.C,C I've never heard of doing an INSTALL of a C-language source file...r  B The OP wants to remove "developer" files, etc., that are needed inD a turn-key sort of setup.  That inplies to me no need for compilers,( and therefore, no need for source files.  	      -Kenm -- r6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfieldo! D1C Automation VMS System Supportn" who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:00:05 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr>-9 Subject: OpenVMS BootCamp (anonymous) pixes - Day 5/5 :-(r4 Message-ID: <42a9f144$0$28277$626a14ce@news.free.fr>  ! http://didier.morandi.free.fr/d5/    D.  E PS: The Longest Trip Contest (which did not occur) was won by Jeremy eD Begg (HP CSC Australia): 26 hours, followed by a young lady from HP ; Japan: 22 hours. You may easily recognize her on a picture.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:46:36 -0700y From: Z <Z@no.spam> = Subject: Re: OpenVMS BootCamp (anonymous) pixes - Day 5/5 :-(t) Message-ID: <G0nqe.1004$Ub4.739@fe06.lga>e   Didier Morandi wrote: # > http://didier.morandi.free.fr/d5/nG > PS: The Longest Trip Contest (which did not occur) was won by Jeremy dF > Begg (HP CSC Australia): 26 hours, followed by a young lady from HP = > Japan: 22 hours. You may easily recognize her on a picture.   F Observation ... I counted only 3 black men, total, in all the sets of 0 pictures ... and 1 of them worked for the hotel!  , How odd. I'm not sure what to make of it ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:44:42 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: OpenVMS BootCamp (anonymous) pixes - Day 5/5 :-(0+ Message-ID: <42AA501A.17AB4B02@comcast.net>    Z wrote: >  > Didier Morandi wrote:r% > > http://didier.morandi.free.fr/d5/ H > > PS: The Longest Trip Contest (which did not occur) was won by JeremyG > > Begg (HP CSC Australia): 26 hours, followed by a young lady from HPa? > > Japan: 22 hours. You may easily recognize her on a picture.n > G > Observation ... I counted only 3 black men, total, in all the sets ofs2 > pictures ... and 1 of them worked for the hotel! > . > How odd. I'm not sure what to make of it ...  F Please make of it only what is appropriate: that's how it was, period.F Co-incidence. Nothing planned, sinister or intentionally manipulated.   E If you feel the need to see more (insert name of race / nationality /tF ethnicity / etc.) people involved with VMS, than make it your personalH mission to recruit them, train them and have them manage VMS systems and attend symposia.  G Accept life as it happens. The meaning of life is not for us techies tot' ponder. Leave that to the philosophers.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsr http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:d" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/c   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:12:36 +0300.' From: "Tomi Hs" <tomi.hasa@gmail.com>s Subject: Re: OT: Google groups+ Message-ID: <3gue25Fe8hpfU1@individual.net>b  2 "Tomi Hs" <tomi.hasa@gmail.com> wrote in message% news:3e6n9bF1fm2nU1@individual.net...  >i# > And here are the other GG1 sites:a >c > I http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.fan.dejanews/msg/bbde84e5ac46b67b * > ( news:<3e6l8kF1epj7U1@individual.net> )  	 And here:s  : http://www.geocities.com/googlepubsupgenfaq/gg1_sites.html5 http://www.geocities.com/googlepubsupgenfaq/#gg1sitess   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jun 2005 15:04:30 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>A Subject: Question about reduced default RMS file extend parametertC Message-ID: <1118441070.321542.202310@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>a  A In the performance manual (v6.0) it says under the section titled - "Performance Options for the System Manager":   C Set RMS file extend parameters--In Version 4.0, the RMS file extende@ default was reduced from 80 to 0 blocks. Because files extend inF increments of twice the multiblock count (default 16), system defaultsB now provide file extension of only 32 blocks. Thus, when files areD created or extended, increased I/O can slow performance. The problemB can be overcome by specifying larger values for SYSGEN file extendA parameters or by setting the SYSGEN parameter RMS_EXTEND_SIZE=80.n  E Okay, here's my question: If changing the default extend size from 80fF to (effectively) 32 slows performance, why was it done? What advantage- was there from changing it from 80 to 0 (32)?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:31:54 -0500i2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: vms and linux+ Message-ID: <42AA4D1A.87B263B4@comcast.net>a   Syltrem wrote: > L > > I didn't origin ally associate Samba with TCP/IP, my first thought thereL > > would be SMB, which I believe is M$-proprietary. Dunno if its carried in* > > TCP/IP or not. Gotta study up on it... > >t > > -- > > David J Dachtera > > dba DJE Systemse > > http://www.djesys.com/ > >a > " > That was confusing from my part., > I meant to answer to the OP, not you DavidK > He said he wanted a way to have VMS and Linux to talk to each other and I  > think Samba can do that.  , Depends what he wants to do. He did not say.   -- h David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsl http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:p" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jun 2005 15:21:17 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t1 Subject: Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?n3 Message-ID: <OJpZQ1HgvGT2@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  n In article <6f6a9$42a9b163$4367aba2$26820@msgid.meganewsservers.com>, Thomas Wirt <twnews@kittles.com> writes:E > I have a project coming up that will require us to get some new IP uJ > capable Terminal Servers.  I plan on looking for refurbed Decserver 90m D > units, since this is what we have had in the past and we have the E > backplane/hub in which the 90 series can go.  Is anyone buying any wJ > alternatives to the 90m?  How much are you paying for how many terminal  > ports?  ; I use DECserver 200s because I do not want to depend on IP.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jun 2005 17:38:44 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> 1 Subject: Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?l. Message-ID: <mdd3brpopsr.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  / Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:R  = > I use DECserver 200s because I do not want to depend on IP.r  L Since I have never been a regular user, much less administrator, of a DECnetL system, I find this statement puzzling.  I have administered TCP/IP terminalN servers since 1984, and have never found them to be undependable; on the otherL hand, the LAT device we had to set up for some reason (I didn't have to deal7 with it directly) was constantly having to be rebooted.n  * So why would you not want to depend on IP?  
 Rich Aldersonr/ Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991l- (the academic computing facility at Stanford)y --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:17:42 GMTa/ From: "Jeff Goodwin" <jgoodwin@maine.rrr-r.com>e1 Subject: Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?o4 Message-ID: <G4qqe.3735$g5.480@twister.nyroc.rr.com>  G We recently replaced our 10 year old Xyplex units with MRV.  The Xyplex L units were fine, but the MTBF was starting to hurt us.  MRV now produces theH latest units formally known as Xyplex.  There are some traditional unitsH based on the old DECserver command set and there are newer ones based on< Linux.  We got the traditional ones and are happy with them.  I If you're not picky about how old the units are, look around for some oldh DECserver 700s.    -Jeffh    3 "Thomas Wirt" <twnews@kittles.com> wrote in messagen? news:6f6a9$42a9b163$4367aba2$26820@msgid.meganewsservers.com...oD > I have a project coming up that will require us to get some new IPI > capable Terminal Servers.  I plan on looking for refurbed Decserver 90mrC > units, since this is what we have had in the past and we have theSD > backplane/hub in which the 90 series can go.  Is anyone buying anyI > alternatives to the 90m?  How much are you paying for how many terminalm > ports? >e > TIAe >  > --  
 > Thomas Wirth > Systems Managerv > Kittle's Home Furnishingsn > Indianapolis, IN   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:36:20 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>1 Subject: Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?a+ Message-ID: <42AA4E24.51A3C158@comcast.net>c   Thomas Wirt wrote: > D > I have a project coming up that will require us to get some new IPI > capable Terminal Servers.  I plan on looking for refurbed Decserver 90mlC > units, since this is what we have had in the past and we have thenD > backplane/hub in which the 90 series can go.  Is anyone buying anyI > alternatives to the 90m?  How much are you paying for how many terminalr > ports?  ) Have you looked at http://www.dnpg.com/ ?p   -- r David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems= http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:s" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/s   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jun 2005 22:39:33 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?b3 Message-ID: <GXBy3l7mH4IE@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  d In article <mdd3brpopsr.fsf@panix5.panix.com>, Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:1 > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:h > > >> I use DECserver 200s because I do not want to depend on IP. > N > Since I have never been a regular user, much less administrator, of a DECnetN > system, I find this statement puzzling.  I have administered TCP/IP terminalP > servers since 1984, and have never found them to be undependable; on the otherN > hand, the LAT device we had to set up for some reason (I didn't have to deal9 > with it directly) was constantly having to be rebooted.   ( I have never had to reboot a LAT device.  , > So why would you not want to depend on IP?  I I would have to run IP on all VMS systems, and in my experience at clienta( sites configuring IP is a lot more work.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:10:07 GMTo  From: John Santos <john@egh.com>, Subject: Re: why are alias names a bad idea?' Message-ID: <j5pqe.180$kj5.55@trnddc03>e  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:q7 > In article <42A942B3.54E72F99@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezeir) > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: m >  > J >>The manual provides some examples where the /GATYEWAY is given as a hostH >>name. So it must work. The recommendation is against an alias (which I! >>guess they mean a CNAME entry).i >  >  > A host name definitely works.l > A > The entries are in my local hosts database.  Thus, by alias, I nC > understand something like SET HOST foo/address=a.b.c.d/alias=bar.  >  > G >>But still, consider that the stack will not resolve a domain name fortJ >>every packet that needs to be processed. The resolution from a host nameD >>to an IP address is done at one point in time (likely during stackJ >>startup). not sure that the stack will update this at regular intervals. >>H >>Furthermore, consider cases where a name points to multiple hosts. TheC >>IP address then becomes random if the DNS server does round robin 4 >>translation ging a different IP address each time. >>H >>If the default route changes from one router to another, your best betH >>is simply to issue the correct TCPIP (or route) commands to change the" >>dynamic route to the new router. >  > F > The only problem is with the configuration.  The in-memory route is J > displayed as an IP address, and obviously this has to be updated.  I am K > assuming that the alias name is stored in the on-disk configuration.  Of tH > course, it gets resolved to an IP address at startup for the volatile G > database.  That's fine.  If I change the default route, I change the mH > volatile, IP-address entry by hand.  I want to use an alias so that I G > can avoid changing the configuration, but rather change the name the 1$ > alias points to in the hosts file.  A I think startup may be the issue.  Converting the host name to IPrB address of the router requires sending a packet to the DNS server,> but if your default DNS server isn't local, it can't get thereB until the IP stack knows the IP address of the gateway.  Catch-22.  > If the host name or alias of the gateway is in the local hosts> database, then you should be okay, but you'll have to manually> change the local database if you change the name or address of the gateway.  > If you specify the gateway by IP address, you'll still have to@ update it if you change the gateway, but it is just one thing to? change, and seems easier to do.  If I have a working DNS servert> under my control, I try to use that and minimize what's in the? local database, because redundancy can only lead to trouble ands confusion later.   -- _ John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.323 ************************