1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 23 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 348       Contents:P Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa Re: Backup Procedure Re: Backup Procedure Re: DHCP eats my default route) Re: Fleeing Compaq customer caught by Sun ) Re: Fleeing Compaq customer caught by Sun ) Re: Fleeing Compaq customer caught by Sun ) Re: Fleeing Compaq customer caught by Sun 1 Re: Hackers and Microsoft Engineers, very amusing  How to FTP with UCX 3.3? Re: How to FTP with UCX 3.3?7 HP is commited to keep on with the VMS Hobbyist Program  HP takes over HPC revenue lead. Re: IBM gains, IA64 loses groun on the TOP 500$ RE: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha?$ RE: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha?$ Re: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha?) Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk ) Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk ) Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk ) Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk   MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS$ Re: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS$ Re: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS$ Re: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMSA Re: OpenVMS I64 Availability, Usage? (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?) A Re: OpenVMS I64 Availability, Usage? (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?) 8 Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?)8 Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?)8 Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?)( OpenVMS PLANET: Introduction and Answers, Re: OpenVMS PLANET: Introduction and Answers, Re: OpenVMS PLANET: Introduction and Answers, Re: OpenVMS PLANET: Introduction and Answers Re: OT: vms keyboard Re: OT: vms keyboard Re: Reading VMS disks  Re: Reading VMS disks  Re: Reading VMS disks  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  RE: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?   Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe  Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe Re: VMS boot on AlphaPC 264DP?! VMS Memory Management vs. others'   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 13:25:32 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa 3 Message-ID: <zBRauXR+5$SB@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <1119379356.453549.59970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes:  A > he is a Christian like I do, the bible is 100% truth and either . > you accept it and follow it as such or burn   4    And those who say they are Christians unlike you?   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 13:15:18 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Backup Procedure 3 Message-ID: <ovg13XK3f6s8@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <1119372702.428242.288020@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >  >  > WeLikeNuts@gmail.com wrote: I >> Adding "Set noon"  before the first backup command solved the problem. > >> Thanks to all who posted to this thread.  Your help is muchI >> appreciated, and I'll certainly comb back through and try to integrate / >> the various suggestions made.  Thanks again.  > G > You mean the BACKUP command containing both /IMAGE and DKC0:[*...]*.* # > worked? If it did, I'm surprised.   G    When you supply image, for the non-saveset end the device is parsed  E    for and the rest of the name is ignored.  And parsing goes all the F    way to the physical device so that a _volume_ image can be created.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 13:10:04 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Backup Procedure C Message-ID: <1119471004.219475.199950@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bob Koehler wrote:l > In article <1119372702.428242.288020@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > >  > >  > > WeLikeNuts@gmail.com wrote: K > >> Adding "Set noon"  before the first backup command solved the problem. @ > >> Thanks to all who posted to this thread.  Your help is muchK > >> appreciated, and I'll certainly comb back through and try to integrate 1 > >> the various suggestions made.  Thanks again.  > > I > > You mean the BACKUP command containing both /IMAGE and DKC0:[*...]*.* % > > worked? If it did, I'm surprised.  > H >    When you supply image, for the non-saveset end the device is parsedG >    for and the rest of the name is ignored.  And parsing goes all the H >    way to the physical device so that a _volume_ image can be created.     Not on my box:  & $ BACKUP/IMAGE DSA0:[SYS0] NL:A.B/SAVED %BACKUP-F-IMGFILSPE, /IMAGE specification must have only device name  $ BACKUP/IMAGE DSA0: NL:A.B/SAVE
  Interrupt   $ SHOW SYS/NOPROC ? OpenVMS V6.2  on node NODEX  22-JUN-2005 16:07:34.48  Uptime  0  05:29:22 $    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 17:40:03 -0700* From: "Alder" <TFTAJLLYMXZP@spammotel.com>' Subject: Re: DHCP eats my default route B Message-ID: <1119487203.105157.52220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:r > In article <1119453616.002978.150130@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "Alder" <TFTAJLLYMXZP@spammotel.com> writes: > = > ECO 5 is current (and if you SSH, then you surely want it).  >    Good to know.  Thanks.  E > >What configuration changes to TCPIP Services might be necessary to I > >ensure my permanent default route is loaded dynamically when using the  > >DHCP Client?  > > > Does your DHCP server provide routing infos (if requested) ? >   D Nothing obvious in the router configuration interface, so maybe not.? The only items that seem to be configurable are DNS name server G addresses.  What I was thinking, but couldn't find documentation on, is E that since the CLIENT.PCY file can request "static_routes" by passing G an IPList of destination/gateway pairs, I could get DHCP to configure a F default route that way.  However, I can't work out the expected formatE of an IPList entry.  Google turned up nothing useful.  So far, I have 
 simply tried:   ) request static_routes 0.0.0.0 192.168.0.1   F but the default route continued to disappear after TCPIP startup.  Any9 idea on the correct syntax of IPList items in DHCP-speak?   5 > >My DHCP Client is configured with a CLIENT.PCY of:  > >  > >$ TYPE CLIENT.PCY > >class_id TCPVMS > >request subnet_mask > >request dns_servers > >request dns_domain_name >  > How about adding >  > 	request routers >   # Tried that.  No effect, I'm afraid.    > and maybe even a >  > 	request host_name >   @ In working out some earlier DHCP problems, I deleted this entry.E Having my hostname pre-configured in the TCPIP COMMUNICATION database G solved the earlier problem and I'm loath to change it.  Not that I have G the Alpha doing anything important - it's simply a hobby - but stopping  and restarting DHCP with the@ SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$DHCP_CLIENT_SHUTDOWN/STARTUP.COM files doesn'tF trigger a DHCP request from the DHCP server so I have to restart TCPIPG Services itself.  Is there an easier way to get DHCP to renew its lease  and reconfigure the interface?   Thanks,    Alder    > -- > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER ' > Network and OpenVMS system specialist  > E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atH > A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:22:22 +0200 3 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> 2 Subject: Re: Fleeing Compaq customer caught by Sun= Message-ID: <42b9e4a0$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote: D > In article <1119383152.733471.42720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, > bob@instantwhip.com writes: : >> this is a unix customer, and one who doesn't understand5 >> os's very well or he would have been on OpenVMS in ; >> the first place ... no vms customer would switch to that ' >> garbage ... ever!  They know better!  >>> > Tons of VMS customers have moved to Sun Solaris in the past.F > If the application you use is no longer supported on VMS but is well* > supported on Solaris what would you do ?= > (At one point you might have been able to move to a similar 
 > application D > supported on VMS but as more applications have been dropped on VMS
 > that has > become much harder.) >   2 Synchronicity - see my post at "Revival of Alpha".  	 Dr. Dweeb    > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University     ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 16:00:40 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com 2 Subject: Re: Fleeing Compaq customer caught by SunC Message-ID: <1119481240.023232.261760@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   C you know, I am tired of hearing all of this application bs ... if I ? need an app and it doesn't exist, I write it!  Maybe instead of C complaining, you should be writing apps for vms ... sounds like you  could corner the market ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:56:53 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>2 Subject: Re: Fleeing Compaq customer caught by Sun+ Message-ID: <42BA16E4.1BEC4D7F@comcast.net>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > E > you know, I am tired of hearing all of this application bs ... if I A > need an app and it doesn't exist, I write it!  Maybe instead of E > complaining, you should be writing apps for vms ... sounds like you  > could corner the market ...   F So, when can we expect the first beta of BobOffice for VMS? (In DIBOL,' it should be an interesting challenge.)    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:32:28 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 2 Subject: Re: Fleeing Compaq customer caught by Sun0 Message-ID: <11bkemb7kn5981b@corp.supernews.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > E >>you know, I am tired of hearing all of this application bs ... if I A >>need an app and it doesn't exist, I write it!  Maybe instead of E >>complaining, you should be writing apps for vms ... sounds like you  >>could corner the market ...  >  > H > So, when can we expect the first beta of BobOffice for VMS? (In DIBOL,) > it should be an interesting challenge.)  >   , Gawd!  I have to defend boob!  I am burning!  $ He never said that he needed office.  A Some sites write their own applications (but not usually office).   " Some sites buy packaged solutions.  0 Some sites are a combination of the two options.  H Of the two options, VMS is more important to those developing their own = applications.  VMS has a very robust development environment.   C For packaged applications, yes, VMS can provide a nice environment  F (secure, scalable, and such), but the applications will work in other 
 environments.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:43:44 +0200 3 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> : Subject: Re: Hackers and Microsoft Engineers, very amusing= Message-ID: <42b9db91$0$78286$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote: D > In article <42b90e06$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, "Dr.2 > Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> writes: >> Z wrote: # >>> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: F >>>> Unfortunately in the name of user friendliness Windows default isG >>>> to add every Wireless network you have ever connected to into it's 	 >>>> list E >>>> of preferred networks and then send out probes for each of these > >>>> networks and finally to connect to the first one it finds >>>> automatically.  >>> A >>> That's odd, my Windows XP Pro system doesn't behave that way.  >>>  >>> I'm prompted to connect. >>> 0 >>> Maybe I have a defective version of Windows? >>F >> My windows 2003AS/EE does that.  I have a few different connectionsB >> available here in my apartment block :-)  My net is secured (noC >> broadcast, encrypted and MAC address btw). Maybe I should modify G >> that behaviour - I am sure there is a button I can push somewhere to  >> fix this. >> > 0 > Are you using WPA rather than WEP encryption ?& > WEP can be broken very very quickly.E > All newer cards and access points should support WPA and you should  > be able toC > get firmware updates to support it on older equipment from pretty 
 > much allD > vendors. (One of the design goals of WPA was that it would work on
 > existingD > cards and access points. The newer official standard 802.11i which > some vendorsF > are calling WPA2 uses a more processor heavy encryption and requires > new A > hardware. Hence it will probably be sometime before most people  > migrate to 802.11i). > C > For home use you will be pretty much stuck with WPA-PSK (WPA with  > Pre-sharedB > key) unless you can setup your own radius server to use WPA with	 > 802.1x. D > WPA-PSK is OK so long as you setup a good pass-phrase (at least 20
 > characters) > > otherwise it might be cracked using a dictionary attack (see1 > http://www.tinypeap.com/html/wpa_cracker.html).  > A > (I was going to add that the tinypeap site also includes a beta 	 > firware D > upgrade to some Linksys Acess points which adds a radius server to	 > them so D > that you can use WPA with 802.1x. However I just noticed that they > haveD > stopped distributing the binaries at the moment due to a copyrightF > infringement issue with the FreeRadius project. Since 802.1x removes
 > the need@ > for setting up a pass phrase it removes the possibility of the > dictionary attack).  >  >  > D > Hiding the SSID doesn't really increase security. It only stops it > being G > broadcasted by the access point - the moment someone starts using the 
 > wirelessH > network the SSID is available in the clear for anyone sniffing the air- > waves. Tools such as Kismet make this easy. E > Not having the SSID broadcast may also cause problems and Microsoft  > explicitly3 > recommends against this practise see for instance @ > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;811427 > F > Limiting the MAC addresses able to access your Access points is only > a veryG > minor impediment. Again the MAC addresses of clients using the access  > point are C > available in the clear hence it is relatively easy for someone to  > note them G > down and then alter the MAC address of their system to match and then  > access > your access point. >  >   M Yes I was aware of all this (except the MS reference).  However, I basically  J just want to stop some deviant living nearby using my connection to trade J illicit items, thus avoiding having the police breaking down my door some L day charging me with some nefarious activity.  I just use WEP, which is all @ that I have available I think.  There is nothing to steal in my + transmissions worth spending time stealing.   	 Dr. Dweeb    >  > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >  >  >  >  >  > 
 >> Dr. Dweeb     ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 12:36:04 -0700/ From: "joerojas@gmail.com" <joerojas@gmail.com> ! Subject: How to FTP with UCX 3.3? C Message-ID: <1119468964.268671.253250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Hi All,   G Well, with the great help that I received from this group I was able to @ install UCX 3.3 on my VAX server with OpenVMS 6.2. Thanks again!  D Now I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to use the darn thing.  @ What I want to do to be able to send files from my VAX to an FTP* server, running Windows 2K, on my network.  * I can't figure out how to accomplish this.    Here is what I have done so far: I installed UCX 3.3 / I configured and interface using UCX$CONFIG.COM 9 I gave the interface and IP, a subnet, and a broadcast IP D I started TCP/IP services (everything is disables except FTP client)9 I connected an AUI to UTP transceiver to the VAX AUI port D I connected a cat5 cable to our 10/100 switch and to the transceiver  D When I start FTP and enter the command CONNECT 192.168.3.3 I get the error message:* %FTP-E-NETERR, I/O error on network device! -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout    Any idea what I am missing?    Thanks! 	 Joe Rojas  joerojas (at) gmail.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:46:27 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> % Subject: Re: How to FTP with UCX 3.3? D Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506221439450.9864@localhost.localdomain>  . On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, joerojas@gmail.com wrote:  F > When I start FTP and enter the command CONNECT 192.168.3.3 I get the > error message:, > %FTP-E-NETERR, I/O error on network device# > -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout   G I am not proficient at configuring or troubleshooting UCX, even though  & I use it here.  Here are some guesses:    Is the network cable plugged in?  ; How do UCX SHOW INTERFACE and UCX SHOW INTERFACE/FULL look?   G What does UCX PING LOCALHOST say?  What does UCX PING 192.168.3.3 say?  B (Add /ALL to these commands to see the individual packet reports).  
 Good luck.   - Rob      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:34:08 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> @ Subject: HP is commited to keep on with the VMS Hobbyist Program4 Message-ID: <42ba49d1$0$31196$636a15ce@news.free.fr>   De : McQuaid, Ann (VMS) $ Envoy : mercredi 22 juin 2005 19:40  : Didier Morandi Cc :# Objet : RE: Hobbyist Program future    Didier,   '    Yes, we absolutely plan to continue.    Ann   P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Didier Morandi& Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:33 AM To: McQuaid, Ann (VMS) Cc:   Subject: Hobbyist Program future     Good morning Ann,   O May I ask you if HP has a plan to continue the VMS Hobbyist program since John   Wisniewski death?   O It seems that the site (http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/) is no more maintained  Q and we experiment difficulties to get Layered Products distribution kits once we  L have the licenses, mainly for VAX. For Alpha it is easy via the DSPP Progam.   Many thanks for your help.
 Best regards,    D.    . Didier MORANDI, Expert informaticien VMS & SAP. 13 chemin du Gu, 1213 Petit-Lancy (GE) Suisse- Tl. : +336 7983 6418 ~ www.didiermorandi.com    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 21:11:41 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ' Subject: HP takes over HPC revenue lead 3 Message-ID: <15LTfOlEvAJ9@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=3520&Thread=1&entryID=52722&roomID=11   9 http://news.taborcommunications.com/msgget.jsp?mid=405015   J "HP leads the high-performance computing (HPC) market in revenue with a 34N percent market share, according to first quarter 2005 figures released by IDC.A This represents a more than five percentage point lead over IBM."   3 I have seen IDC data for 4Q04 that showed IBM to be 2 nearly 3% ahead of HP in HPC. For HP to gain about4 8% market share relative to IBM in one quarter seems quite remarkable.    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 21:17:51 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 7 Subject: Re: IBM gains, IA64 loses groun on the TOP 500 3 Message-ID: <jRhXIxkcvoGu@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <42B99E48.4286D15E@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:a > http://news.com.com/New+supercomputers+overhaul+top+ranks/2100-1010_3-5756416.html?tag=nefd.top   J > I think it is really telling that the 8086 toy controller has evolved to: > have 254 of the top 500 systems, while IA64 only has 79. > G > When Intel says that IA64 is "big iron", you'd expect it to rank much 5 > higher than the 8086 in the top 500 supercomputers.     A         Yeah - but the almighty Power5 has 5 spots on the Top500.   H         Your brain must be under-going some serious cognitive dissonance         right about now . . .   #                                 Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:49:13 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> - Subject: RE: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha? R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB650CFB@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message----- > From: Main, Kerry=20 > Sent: June 22, 2005 1:35 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com / > Subject: RE: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha?  >=20 > > -----Original Message-----. > > From: j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818=20! > [mailto:jlw@psulias.psu.edu]=20   > > Sent: June 22, 2005 10:26 AM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 1 > > Subject: Re: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha?  > >=20 > > >In article=20@ > > <craigberry-6C87D5.19263820062005@news.isp.giganews.com>,=20< > > "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> writes:4 > > >>In article <d96lsk$182u$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>,E > > >> jlw@psulias.psu.edu (j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818) wrote:  > > >>B > > >>> I have OVMS v7.2-1H1, not likely to be able to convince=20 > > the powers that beA > > >>> to upgrade it, and have a need to use a C-callable API=20  > for LDAP. =20  > > >>> > > >>You just want to run queries against a remote server,=20 > > right?  I haven't=20D > > >>tried it on VMS, but the Perl extension Net::LDAP oughta work: > > >>3 > > >>http://search.cpan.org/~gbarr/perl-ldap-0.33/  > >=20D > > 	I need to replace RMS calls manipulating flat files in VMS withD > > 	LDAP calls accessing/maintaining ldap groups.  All currently=20C > > 	implemented in C.  No desire to add yet another unixism to the = > > 	mix (Perl) just now.  Thanks for the suggestion, but not  > > 	going to work.  > >=20A > > +----"Never Underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon=20  > > full of mag tapes"--+ 0 > > | J.Lance Wilkinson ("Lance")		InterNet: =20 > > Lance.Wilkinson@psu.edu=20@ > > | Systems Design Specialist - Lead	AT&T:      (814) 865-18181 > > | Digital Library Technologies		FAX:      =20  > > (814) 863-3560 >=20 > [snip...]  >=20 > Lance,=20  >=20B > The official recommendation for using LDAP would likely be to=20 > follow theE > recommendations as outlined in the Guide to Security OpenVMS doc's:  >=20E > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/aa-q2hlg-te/aa-q2hlg-te.HTMl  >=20 > Also, reference:1 > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/security.html  >=20	 > Regards  >=20    5 Ooopps.. Missed the line on the VMS V7.2-1H1 Version.   H Given that version is 5 years old, I am not sure what LDAP options mightH be available for a version that old .. Kind of like asking Microsoft for* integrated LDAP support on Windows NT4.=20   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:26:18 +0000 (UTC) = From: jlw@psulias.psu.edu (j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818) - Subject: RE: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha? - Message-ID: <d9ce0q$sve$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>   | In article <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB650CFB@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes: >> > -----Original Message----- / >> > From: j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818=20 " >> [mailto:jlw@psulias.psu.edu]=20! >> > Sent: June 22, 2005 10:26 AM  >> > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com2 >> > Subject: Re: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha? > 6 >Ooopps.. Missed the line on the VMS V7.2-1H1 Version. > I >Given that version is 5 years old, I am not sure what LDAP options might I >be available for a version that old .. Kind of like asking Microsoft for ( >integrated LDAP support on Windows NT4.  ? 	Ah, but the guy who wrote the LGI routines that I found to use = 	LDAP said that the base LDAP libraries have been there since  	OpenVMS v7.2 !   B 	I suspect it wasn't default bundled, maybe available with a POSIXB 	overlay or something, which that particular developer assumed was? 	part of the base OS, but was hoping for clarification on that.   A 	Jeremy Begg offered his port of a UofMich LDAP library which I'm A 	hoping to start using, but frankly if there were a supported one # 	somewhere I'd rather have used it.   P +----"Never Underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tapes"--+B | J.Lance Wilkinson ("Lance")		InterNet:  Lance.Wilkinson@psu.edu < | Systems Design Specialist - Lead	AT&T:      (814) 865-18189 | Digital Library Technologies		FAX:       (814) 863-3560 2 | 3 Paterno Library				"I'd rather be dancing..." B | Penn State University		    A host is a host from coast to coast,K | University Park, PA 16802	    And no one will talk to a host that's close C | <postmaster@psulias.psu.edu>	    Unless the host that isn't close : | EMail Professional since 1978	    Is busy, hung or dead.P +---------"He's dead, Jim. I'll get his tricorder. You take his wallet."-------+9                 [apologies to DeForest Kelley, 1920-1999] 3 <A Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu">home page</a>  J <a Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu/junkdec.htm">junk mail declaration</a> --	/"\ 	\ /	ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN 	 X	AGAINST HTML MAIL  	/ \   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:37:07 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - Subject: Re: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha? / Message-ID: <11bkeuujp8bj4a@corp.supernews.com>   ( j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818 wrote:  R > +----"Never Underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tapes"--+  E Isn't it about time to upgrade to a station wagon full of 320 GB DLT   tapes?  :-)    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:29:41 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) 2 Subject: Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk1 Message-ID: <p6iue.7502$Nt6.961@news.cpqcorp.net>   e In article <42b93ae3$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes: M :No problem. I did it for years (booting my VAXstations from my Alphaserver). H :Of course you need a VAX system disks for them on the bootserver and itH :is not supported (in fact CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM didn't know how to do it).    H   Cross-booting OpenVMS VAX satellite from an OpenVMS Alpha MOP and diskF   server or booting an OpenVMS Alpha satellite from an OpenVMS VAX MOPG   and disk server is fully supported on all current OpenVMS VAX and all "   current OpenVMS Alpha releases.   I   You do need to initially install the target OpenVMS architecture system G   disk from a system of the same architecture with a local (soon-to-be) I   system disk access path, and you do need use CLUSTER_CONFIG[_LAN] from  H   the same particular system disk.  Once OpenVMS is installed, then full   cross-booting is supported.   H   If you're careful and knowledgable, you might even be able to dispenseF   with the same-architecture initial installation requirement for the H   system disk -- but a same-architecture initial installation is easier.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 13:28:28 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 2 Subject: Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk3 Message-ID: <SZqt8l6bFPbp@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <42b870b9$0$30780$626a14ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> writes:K > How do you write the boot block of a disk that you just populated with a  > > standalone backup/init/ver/ima from a VMS distribution disk? > . > Does the /image copy the boot block as well? > C    If you backed up a bootable disk with /image, the resulting disk     is bootable.    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:39:21 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) 2 Subject: Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk( Message-ID: <d9cb8p$m8l$1@pcls4.std.com>  / Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> writes:   ! >Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:   f >> In article <42b90eed$0$6382$626a14ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> writes: >>  R >>>then I did and it failed again then I realized that I was trying to MOP boot a  >>>"VAX" from... my Alpha :-)  >>   >>  O >> No problem. I did it for years (booting my VAXstations from my Alphaserver). J >> Of course you need a VAX system disks for them on the bootserver and itJ >> is not supported (in fact CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM didn't know how to do it).  O >I considered to copy the VMB.EXE file in sys$system, then thought that "I was  # >going to do a despictable act" :-)   K Heh.. Reminds me how I once created a VMS system disk that was bootable on  6 both VAX and Alpha, just to see if it could be done...   -Mike    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 21:29:33 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)2 Subject: Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk, Message-ID: <42b9d83d$1@news.langstoeger.at>  W In article <p6iue.7502$Nt6.961@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: f >In article <42b93ae3$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:N >:No problem. I did it for years (booting my VAXstations from my Alphaserver).I >:Of course you need a VAX system disks for them on the bootserver and it I >:is not supported (in fact CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM didn't know how to do it).  > I >  Cross-booting OpenVMS VAX satellite from an OpenVMS Alpha MOP and disk G >  server or booting an OpenVMS Alpha satellite from an OpenVMS VAX MOP H >  and disk server is fully supported on all current OpenVMS VAX and all# >  current OpenVMS Alpha releases.    - The boot is not the problem. Only the config.   J >  You do need to initially install the target OpenVMS architecture systemH >  disk from a system of the same architecture with a local (soon-to-be)J >  system disk access path, and you do need use CLUSTER_CONFIG[_LAN] from I >  the same particular system disk.  Once OpenVMS is installed, then full  >  cross-booting is supported.  H But how to run CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM from a _foreign_ system (=data) disk ?  G In short, you need to have a VAX bootserver to configure VAX satellites J with CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM. Then after configuration you could remove the VAX@ bootserver. But adding the next VAX satellite requires it again.  K I ended after a few hours of reading CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM in defining the MOP G database by hand (and adding the root on the VAX disk) and ignoring the  CLUSTER_CONFIG.COM completely.  I >  If you're careful and knowledgable, you might even be able to dispense G >  with the same-architecture initial installation requirement for the  I >  system disk -- but a same-architecture initial installation is easier.   L Next problem was, how to do a OpenVMS VAX upgrade without a VAX bootserver ?J Maybe it works with an Alpha satellite on a VAX bootserver (cause of PCSI)J but not on how my clusters looked like. If this changes in the future, ok.I But now my VAX satellites are gone. And I64 will make it different again.    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:10:21 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)) Subject: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS 6 Message-ID: <00A45ACD.5ACB7526@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  	 VMSers --    VMS 7.3-2 - DS20E . MSL5026SL 2 (SDLT 220 tapes, LVD SCSI version)   Library firmware version 0423   K Current problem:  Library can load a tape and do backups, but when it comes M time to remove the dismounted tape, the tape stays in and the library throws  K a "soft fetch error"  and won't return it until I reboot the library, which * isn't good for a high-availability system.  M Poking around the HP website, I see that more recent versions of the firmware O have a fix for this condition that doesn't require "dismount/unload".  I'd like  to get that working.  N (However, I changed my "dismount" to "dismount/unload" and last night's backupM worked and the library was able to take the tape back, so this is, finally, a K workaround I can use.  But I'd still like to be able to update the library  
 firmware.)  J The 2004 version of HP-LTT says it doesn't seen anything in the 'firmware'H directory for this library.  I tried downloading and installing the 2005L version of HP LTT, but whether I fetch it through Mozilla, wget, or Multinet- FTP, the PCSI set seems to be scroggled, viz:     5 $ product install * /source=$disk4:[winston.download]  %PCSI-E-READERR, error reading1 $9$DKA2:[DISK4.][WINSTON.DOWNLOAD]HP-AXPVMS-LTT-V  0305--1.PCSI;29 -RMS-W-RTB, 18531 byte record too large for user's buffer " %PCSI-E-S_OPFAIL, operation failedM %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error condition  SY  , (I sent a note to the webmaster about this.)    H I also tried using the web interface on the drive itself to do a "Flash N Library from Remote File".  It reports that it's going to ftp.overlanddata.com7 but then says the /Outgoing/NextGen directory is empty.   M (I tried anonymous FTP to it myself, and found that it _wasn't_ empty, but in K fact I don't know what image the drive is looking for, and maybe it's just  5 reporting empty because it doesn't find it.  It's got    NEO8000_403.bin  NeoLib_429.bin   in it.)   H Where can I get current firmware?  What does the filename have to be forI LTT to be able to recognize it?  Is there a current version of HP_LTT for E VMS that isn't messed up?  Can I somehow fix the PCSI kit?  How can I ) upgrade the firmware on my pesky library?   K I suppose I have the option of hooking it up to a Windows system and trying # again, but I'd _really_ rather not.    Thanks,   * -- Alan (who thinks this should be easier)   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 16:56:58 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> - Subject: Re: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS C Message-ID: <1119484618.099781.142980@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:7 > $ product install * /source=$disk4:[winston.download]   > %PCSI-E-READERR, error reading3 > $9$DKA2:[DISK4.][WINSTON.DOWNLOAD]HP-AXPVMS-LTT-V  > 0305--1.PCSI;2; > -RMS-W-RTB, 18531 byte record too large for user's buffer $ > %PCSI-E-S_OPFAIL, operation failedO > %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error condition  >   Did you try a "set 7 file/attr=(RFM:FIX,MRS:8192,LRL:8192,ORG:SEQ,RAT:NONE)" E on the PCSI file?  The RMS setting could have gotten scrambled on the 	 download.   G I did a DIR/FULL on a bunch of mine and the RMS settings all seem to be ? the same.  If yours are different then I'd suspect them and try  re-setting them.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:27:54 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)- Subject: Re: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS 6 Message-ID: <00A45AD8.2FCA63EC@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>   In article <1119484618.099781.142980@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes:  >  > - >Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: 8 >> $ product install * /source=$disk4:[winston.download]! >> %PCSI-E-READERR, error reading 4 >> $9$DKA2:[DISK4.][WINSTON.DOWNLOAD]HP-AXPVMS-LTT-V >> 0305--1.PCSI;2 < >> -RMS-W-RTB, 18531 byte record too large for user's buffer% >> %PCSI-E-S_OPFAIL, operation failed P >> %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error condition >> > Did you try a "set8 >file/attr=(RFM:FIX,MRS:8192,LRL:8192,ORG:SEQ,RAT:NONE)"F >on the PCSI file?  The RMS setting could have gotten scrambled on the
 >download. > H >I did a DIR/FULL on a bunch of mine and the RMS settings all seem to be@ >the same.  If yours are different then I'd suspect them and try >re-setting them.   G Thanks for that suggestion.  Did it, it fixed the PCSI, I installed it.   H The new version doesn't seem to behave any differently from the old one,I so I'm not any forrarder on upgrading the firmware, but at least it's one  frustration removed.   -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:13:30 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>- Subject: Re: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS + Message-ID: <42BA1ACA.5CC8E038@comcast.net>   , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: >  > VMSers --  >  > VMS 7.3-2 - DS20E 0 > MSL5026SL 2 (SDLT 220 tapes, LVD SCSI version) >  > Library firmware version 0423  > M > Current problem:  Library can load a tape and do backups, but when it comes N > time to remove the dismounted tape, the tape stays in and the library throwsM > a "soft fetch error"  and won't return it until I reboot the library, which , > isn't good for a high-availability system. > O > Poking around the HP website, I see that more recent versions of the firmware Q > have a fix for this condition that doesn't require "dismount/unload".  I'd like  > to get that working. > P > (However, I changed my "dismount" to "dismount/unload" and last night's backupO > worked and the library was able to take the tape back, so this is, finally, a L > workaround I can use.  But I'd still like to be able to update the library > firmware.)  5 Is this a new symptom or has it always been this way?   D Is this a new install? ...still under warranty? ...support contract?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:11:58 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) J Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 Availability, Usage? (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?)2 Message-ID: <2fmue.7527$KG6.4551@news.cpqcorp.net>  V In article <3ht5m8FipmleU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:A :I have only seen one Itanium running VMS.  It was not bought but @ :was, as most people here have suspected, provided by HP gratis,> :Personally, I doubt that any itaniums have actually been sold+ :other than the few that are running Linux.   H   You would be wrong here -- if indicated by no other measurement, thereF   are various OpenVMS I64 customer bug reports and various OpenVMS I64<   enhancement requests arriving here in OpenVMS Engineering.  H   If you want to know what's up and which customers are discussing theirH   OpenVMS I64 use (publicly), do please get onto Sue Skonetski's mailingB   list.  (If y'all get half as much mail from Sue as we get... :-)  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jun 2005 00:17:41 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)J Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 Availability, Usage? (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?)+ Message-ID: <3hudd4Fiv0n4U1@individual.net>   2 In article <2fmue.7527$KG6.4551@news.cpqcorp.net>,& 	hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:X > In article <3ht5m8FipmleU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:B >:I have only seen one Itanium running VMS.  It was not bought butA >:was, as most people here have suspected, provided by HP gratis, ? >:Personally, I doubt that any itaniums have actually been sold , >:other than the few that are running Linux. > J >   You would be wrong here -- if indicated by no other measurement, thereH >   are various OpenVMS I64 customer bug reports and various OpenVMS I64> >   enhancement requests arriving here in OpenVMS Engineering.  C I didn't say there were none running VMS.  There is one running VMS < right here.  I said they weren't bought.  Like the one here.   bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:54:47 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) A Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?) 2 Message-ID: <X_lue.7523$KG6.3400@news.cpqcorp.net>  u In article <Pine.OSX.4.62.0506221120020.233@net-56658.fas.harvard.edu>, Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam> writes:   G :I think the SRM console has to be one of the biggest technical hurdles F :to an x86 port of VMS.  x86 platforms generally use a BIOS.  In fact,D :many of the Alpha platforms that don't support VMS are disqualifiedF :because they use AlphaBIOS (designed for Windows NT/Alpha) instead ofF :the SRM console.  I don't know what Itanium uses, but if it's similarF :to the x86 BIOS then I would imagine that this constituted a big part :of the Itanium port of VMS.  G   All systems based on Intel Itanium processors that I am aware of all  H   use the Intel EFI console, quite possibly with various vendor-specificF   options or EFI command extensions.  This includes EFI command-level E   extensions (eg: HP POSSE), and potentially ACPI-level mechanisms or    tools.  8   OpenVMS I64 boots using the EFI console, for instance.  F   With OpenVMS I64, much of what was in PALcode has been moved up intoI   OpenVMS.  The SRM PALcode was the result of moving various VAX hardware I   features to Alpha, too, so this is evolutionary.  (Now the VAX features F   long expected and long required by OpenVMS are typically built into    OpenVMS itself.)  F   Moving to IA-32 is nuts, BTW.  OpenVMS is a 64-bit operating system,H   meaning you would be looking at EM64T or AMD64.  OpenVMS I64 presentlyF   runs on Intel Itanium systems, and Itanium systems are available andE   supported.  No plans for IA-32, EM64T nor AMD64, either, beyond the    available VAX emulation.  H   There's a console-related discussion or two over in the blog, as well:  G   http://h20276.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/2005/03/01/1109714602000.html    	--   I   I am aware of no plans for native ports of OpenVMS to IA-32, EM64T nor  H   AMD64, nor to restart Alpha.  OpenVMS I64 is available on Itanium, and>   Itanium systems and various software packages are available.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:06:07 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> A Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?) , Message-ID: <42BA1908.27674701@teksavvy.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: J >   I am aware of no plans for native ports of OpenVMS to IA-32, EM64T norJ >   AMD64, nor to restart Alpha.  OpenVMS I64 is available on Itanium, and@ >   Itanium systems and various software packages are available.    G Does Intel plan to spread EFI to the 64 bit 8086 ?  I have been lead to @ believe that Intel had goals on standardising on EFI for all its" architectures. Any truth to this ?    C Once Intel moves both IA64 and 8086 to a common system interface in 7 2007, does this imply increased commonality in the boot 4 sequence/philosophy, or are they totally unrelated ?  E Does EFI currently have any commonality in philosophy etc to what the  modern 8086s have ?     A Since since some Alpha systems came with different console, is it H conceivable that some 8086s would come with EFI and some would come with# the original 8086 booting systems ?     G And assuming a theoretical scenario where Intel makes 64 bit 8086s that G use EFI for booting, would this theoretically make the port of VMS much F easier ? i.e. is the booting interface of a chip a significant part of the work required to port ?    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:51:16 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) A Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?) L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2206052351160001@user-105n97o.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <42BA1908.27674701@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei % <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:    >Hoff Hoffman wrote:K >>   I am aware of no plans for native ports of OpenVMS to IA-32, EM64T nor K >>   AMD64, nor to restart Alpha.  OpenVMS I64 is available on Itanium, and A >>   Itanium systems and various software packages are available.  >    ...     B >Since since some Alpha systems came with different console, is itI >conceivable that some 8086s would come with EFI and some would come with $ >the original 8086 booting systems ?  G Alpha systems, from the earliest ones to the current ones, all follow a H standard architecture, the "System Reference Manual" (SRM).  The consoleD and its interface to the OS are covered by the SRM.  The SRM evolvedE significantly over the years (of order 100 ECOs, IIRC), and it always G allowed system designers quite a few choices.  So there are non-trivial 5 differences in the consoles of various Alpha systems.   H >And assuming a theoretical scenario where Intel makes 64 bit 8086s thatH >use EFI for booting, would this theoretically make the port of VMS muchG >easier ? i.e. is the booting interface of a chip a significant part of  >the work required to port ?  H Most of the work of booting is not focused on the CPU, but rather on the- glue chipset, I/O hardware, and the firmware.   J Yes, the interface to the console is a significant issue for VMS.  This isI one area where the Itanium system architecture (EFI and other architected G interfaces) is better than Alpha.  Another improvement is that hardware G interfaces are abstracted better on Itanium.  Basic OS functionality is H easier to achieve on a new Itanium system than on a comparable new Alpha system.   G VMS required virtually no new code to go from rx2600 to current rx1620, G rx2620, and rx4640 systems, except for device drivers for new devices.  E That's about a 3 year evolution of systems.  On Alpha, the EV68-based D systems (DS15, DS25, and ES45) span about the same time and range ofE functionality.  There are code changes in VMS for each of these Alpha G systems.  The story is similar for most of the other Alphaserver system E families.  Newer system families are generally better than old ones.  E (Better meaning fewer capricious hardware changes for the OS to worry  about.)   G On Alpha, there was generally a dedicated VMS engineer assigned to each I new system.  Big, complex system families got more than one engineer.  On J Itanium, specifically the HP Integrity servers, one VMS engineer can coverI multiple generations of one or two different system families if there are % no major changes in the I/O hardware.   J For ease of support of new systems, Itanium beats Alpha by a wide margin. @ Not because of the CPUs, but because of the ways the systems are< constrained by their respective architecture specifications.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 15:06:30 -0700- From: "hbrown@parsec.com" <hbrown@parsec.com> 1 Subject: OpenVMS PLANET: Introduction and Answers C Message-ID: <1119477990.011230.155830@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   E OpenVMS PLANET.org is now up and running, and we're excited about its E launch.  I noticed a thread citing a few questions about the website, , and I'd like to share our thoughts with you.  A OpenVMS PLANET is sponsored by PARSEC Group, but it is a distinct < website.  Some of you 'old-timers' know that PARSEC has beenD serving the VMS community for twenty years, and we are proud OpenVMS> enthusiasts and 'bigots'.  While the advancement of OpenVMS isG beneficial to us (and you, since we all make our living with it), it is D not self-serving, and I think we would all like to see this platformF get new momentum going.  Obviously, we are linked to PARSEC Group, andF we're making the webinars available through both sites, but our intentE is to be a resource for the entire OpenVMS Community and to encourage  development on the platform.  B Our vision for OpenVMS PLANET is to encourage community, advocacy,F education and evangelism.  We all know that OpenVMS is an unassailableB workhorse of an operating system, but it's missing the grass-rootsA support that keeps Linux and others in the limelight.  We want to D create that kind of activism, and a community that can drive OpenVMS? forward.  OpenVMS.org is a great website, and Ken Farmer does a @ fabulous job keeping it current and informative.  Ken is a great@ advocate, and he's been very supportive of our plans for OpenVMSG PLANET; we hope to further strengthen our partnership with Ken and with B OpenVMS.org as we move forward.  We believe that OpenVMS PLANET isD complimentary to the other OpenVMS resources that are available, andC we'll be launching some very unique features in the months to come. C We're hoping to appeal to the established OpenVMS community, but to G also serve as a gateway to OpenVMS for other IT professionals.  And, in D line with our goals to support OpenVMS in education and academia, weG created a site that would appeal to the younger generation of hobbyists 6 and SysAdmins that will carry OpenVMS into the future.  B We hope you'll share your feedback and suggestions for improvementG with us, and help us build OpenVMS PLANET into a dynamic resource.  Our C goal is to advocate for OpenVMS as a robust, solid platform, and we * think that Community is the key to growth.   Regards,
 Heather Brown  Content Webmaster  OpenVMS PLANET www.openvmsplanet.org    ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2005 22:33:32 GMT$ From: "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com>5 Subject: Re: OpenVMS PLANET: Introduction and Answers 6 Message-ID: <Xns967E5D099176dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>  H %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, hbrown@parsec.com wrote in news:1119477990.011230.155830 @o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com   D > We hope you'll share your feedback and suggestions for improvementI > with us, and help us build OpenVMS PLANET into a dynamic resource.  Our E > goal is to advocate for OpenVMS as a robust, solid platform, and we , > think that Community is the key to growth.  - Can you get a front page article on Slashdot?   K I'm not joking about that, Microsoft thinks it is important to spend a lot  C of money advertising on the site so getting VMS mentioned there is  G important.  There may be a lot of 14-year olds who think Linux is "teh  E roxxor" (or whatever), but a lot of seasoned IT people follow it too.      Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:17:09 -0400 - From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> 5 Subject: Re: OpenVMS PLANET: Introduction and Answers 7 Message-ID: <8660a3a10506221917475d8461@mail.gmail.com>   K On 22 Jun 2005 15:06:30 -0700, hbrown@parsec.com <hbrown@parsec.com> wrote: G > OpenVMS PLANET.org is now up and running, and we're excited about its G > launch.  I noticed a thread citing a few questions about the website, . > and I'd like to share our thoughts with you. >=20C > OpenVMS PLANET is sponsored by PARSEC Group, but it is a distinct > > website.  Some of you 'old-timers' know that PARSEC has beenF > serving the VMS community for twenty years, and we are proud OpenVMS@ > enthusiasts and 'bigots'.  While the advancement of OpenVMS isI > beneficial to us (and you, since we all make our living with it), it is F > not self-serving, and I think we would all like to see this platformH > get new momentum going.  Obviously, we are linked to PARSEC Group, andH > we're making the webinars available through both sites, but our intentG > is to be a resource for the entire OpenVMS Community and to encourage  > development on the platform. >=20D > Our vision for OpenVMS PLANET is to encourage community, advocacy,H > education and evangelism.  We all know that OpenVMS is an unassailableD > workhorse of an operating system, but it's missing the grass-rootsC > support that keeps Linux and others in the limelight.  We want to F > create that kind of activism, and a community that can drive OpenVMSA > forward.  OpenVMS.org is a great website, and Ken Farmer does a B > fabulous job keeping it current and informative.  Ken is a greatB > advocate, and he's been very supportive of our plans for OpenVMSI > PLANET; we hope to further strengthen our partnership with Ken and with D > OpenVMS.org as we move forward.  We believe that OpenVMS PLANET isF > complimentary to the other OpenVMS resources that are available, andE > we'll be launching some very unique features in the months to come. E > We're hoping to appeal to the established OpenVMS community, but to I > also serve as a gateway to OpenVMS for other IT professionals.  And, in F > line with our goals to support OpenVMS in education and academia, weI > created a site that would appeal to the younger generation of hobbyists 8 > and SysAdmins that will carry OpenVMS into the future. >=20D > We hope you'll share your feedback and suggestions for improvementI > with us, and help us build OpenVMS PLANET into a dynamic resource.  Our E > goal is to advocate for OpenVMS as a robust, solid platform, and we , > think that Community is the key to growth. >=20
 > Regards, > Heather Brown  > Content Webmaster  > OpenVMS PLANET > www.openvmsplanet.org  >=20 >=20   Nicely said.  F Now, if you really mean it, put your money where your mouth is and pay him to host it.   C You'll earn tremendous goodwill from the VMS community and help Ken  pay the bills.   Regards,   WWWebb   --=20 C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:11:08 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> 5 Subject: Re: OpenVMS PLANET: Introduction and Answers 4 Message-ID: <42ba446e$0$31200$636a15ce@news.free.fr>   William Webb wrote:    > Nicely said. > H > Now, if you really mean it, put your money where your mouth is and pay > him to host it.  > E > You'll earn tremendous goodwill from the VMS community and help Ken  > pay the bills.   +1   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:29:44 +0200 3 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>  Subject: Re: OT: vms keyboard = Message-ID: <42b9e659$0$78286$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    skearney@accessbee.com wrote:  > skearney@accessbee.com wrote:  >> William Webb wrote:9 >>> On 19 Jun 2005 20:53:38 -0700, skearney@accessbee.com # >>> <skearney@accessbee.com> wrote: F >>>> The subject of the Dvorak keyboard has come up half a dozen times: >>>> in this group.  While Keytweak may be irrelevant, theB >>>> transposition dfjk with etni will increase the amount of text4 >>>> typed from these four home keys by almost 500%. >>>> >>>> >>>> Aset keyboardE >>>> It has been said that the most common letters were taken off the F >>>> home row of the first typewriter keyboard to slow down the typist >>>> and prevent jamming. G >>>> On a Dvorak keyboard almost sixty percent of average text is typed D >>>> from the home keys.  Transposing the letters 'etni' with 'dfjk'G >>>> would put more than 55% of text on the home keys, up from only 26% @ >>>> on the qwerty layout.  Thats more than twice the text typed >>>> without lifting a finger. >>>>E >>>> The change is quite pleasant and easy to learn.  I hope you will  >>>> pass this on. >>>>E >>>> To put e, t, n and i back where they belong, there is a keyboard G >>>> remapping program that is free, downloads quickly and is very easy H >>>> to use.  I am typing this post on a keyboard remapped to the 'etni'E >>>> transposition layout.  The program is called 'Keytweak 2.11' and B >>>> can be googled up by that name.  It is available from several" >>>> sites, including PC magazine. >>>>7 >>>> 1)  After you have loaded the program click start. C >>>> 2)  Click the "KeyTweak" icon and a graphic of a keyboard will A >>>> appear. 3)  Click the "Full Teach Mode" at the bottom of the > >>>> screen. 4)  A box will appear.  Click "Begin Teach Mode".E >>>> 5)  Press the key you want to reassign, then the key you want it ( >>>> reassigned to, in this case D to E.% >>>> 6)  Click "Remap Key#1 to Key#2" B >>>> 7)  The box will disappear and the scancodes of the keys will@ >>>> appear in the "Pending Changes" window at the bottom right.? >>>> 8)  Follow the same procedure (from 3) for E to D, and the  >>>> remaining six remaps.H >>>> 9)  Click "Apply" and you will be asked if you want to turn off the# >>>> computer to apply the changes. H >>>>     At the top there is also a clickable "Restore Defaults" to give! >>>> you back your qwerty layout. F >>>>     I was able to remap in under three minutes and restore qwerty2 >>>> in thirty seconds, not including the restart. >>>>D >>>> You can try out the sample lines of text below to discover that4 >>>> your fingers already know where etni should go. >>>>1 >>>> nineteen lean little saints settle in a nest 1 >>>> jkjdfddj ldaj lkffld sakjfs sdffld kj a jdsf  >>>>, >>>> an alien eats an ant antenna in atlanta, >>>> aj alkdj dafs aj ajf ajfdjja kj aflajfa >>>>1 >>>> elite sense entails a siesta in a satin seat 1 >>>> dlkfd sdjsd djfakls a skdsfa kj a safkj sdaf  >>>>$ >>>> a stain is seen at a linen sale$ >>>> a sfakj ks sddj af a lkjdj sald >>>>0 >>>> a latent latin talent tast tests in seattle0 >>>> a lafdjf lafkj faldjf fasf fdsfs kj sdaffld >>>># >>>> insane santa sails in sea salt # >>>> kjsajd sajfa sakls kj sda salf  >>>> >>>> Many thanks >>>> >>>> >>>  >>> Looks like ROT-13 to me. >>> 
 >>> WWWebb >>>  >>> --G >>> NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  >>> correspondence. G >>> All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for < >>> services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at' >>> http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/  >>H >>     AFAIK, the only thing that these letter swaps have in common withH >> rot-13 is that ed becomes de.  The 'etni' code is easy to decipher ifE >> you let your fingers do the walking.  It is a decent way to find a < >> post on google.  Thanks for your reply, Mr. Wkllkam wdbb. > C >    I goofed, er becomes re in rot13, e becoming d would be rot25.  > E >    Kf's tujjey, buf K caj fype abouf 40 wpm buf kt somdojd comds up - > bdhkje md, my fypkjg *loois* lkid ROF-13...  > $ >    Fhajks tor your posf, Mr. Wdbb.  F IIRC (and I may be way way off here), the orginal "tests" proving the K efiicacy of the dvorak vs. qwerty layout were performed and monitored by a  J company/individual who had a very large vested interest in the result and I the actual results were far from conclusive, as distinct from the report  L which was of course glowingly in favour of dvorak.  I seem to recall having ? read this at some urban legend site some time in the deep past.   
 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 17:31:33 -0700 From: skearney@accessbee.com Subject: Re: OT: vms keyboard C Message-ID: <1119486693.257947.215440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Dr. Dweeb wrote: > skearney@accessbee.com wrote: ! > > skearney@accessbee.com wrote:  > >> William Webb wrote:; > >>> On 19 Jun 2005 20:53:38 -0700, skearney@accessbee.com % > >>> <skearney@accessbee.com> wrote: H > >>>> The subject of the Dvorak keyboard has come up half a dozen times< > >>>> in this group.  While Keytweak may be irrelevant, theD > >>>> transposition dfjk with etni will increase the amount of text6 > >>>> typed from these four home keys by almost 500%. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Aset keyboardG > >>>> It has been said that the most common letters were taken off the H > >>>> home row of the first typewriter keyboard to slow down the typist > >>>> and prevent jamming. I > >>>> On a Dvorak keyboard almost sixty percent of average text is typed F > >>>> from the home keys.  Transposing the letters 'etni' with 'dfjk'I > >>>> would put more than 55% of text on the home keys, up from only 26% B > >>>> on the qwerty layout.  Thats more than twice the text typed  > >>>> without lifting a finger. > >>>>G > >>>> The change is quite pleasant and easy to learn.  I hope you will  > >>>> pass this on. > >>>>G > >>>> To put e, t, n and i back where they belong, there is a keyboard I > >>>> remapping program that is free, downloads quickly and is very easy J > >>>> to use.  I am typing this post on a keyboard remapped to the 'etni'G > >>>> transposition layout.  The program is called 'Keytweak 2.11' and D > >>>> can be googled up by that name.  It is available from several$ > >>>> sites, including PC magazine. > >>>>9 > >>>> 1)  After you have loaded the program click start. E > >>>> 2)  Click the "KeyTweak" icon and a graphic of a keyboard will C > >>>> appear. 3)  Click the "Full Teach Mode" at the bottom of the @ > >>>> screen. 4)  A box will appear.  Click "Begin Teach Mode".G > >>>> 5)  Press the key you want to reassign, then the key you want it * > >>>> reassigned to, in this case D to E.' > >>>> 6)  Click "Remap Key#1 to Key#2" D > >>>> 7)  The box will disappear and the scancodes of the keys willB > >>>> appear in the "Pending Changes" window at the bottom right.A > >>>> 8)  Follow the same procedure (from 3) for E to D, and the  > >>>> remaining six remaps.J > >>>> 9)  Click "Apply" and you will be asked if you want to turn off the% > >>>> computer to apply the changes. J > >>>>     At the top there is also a clickable "Restore Defaults" to give# > >>>> you back your qwerty layout. H > >>>>     I was able to remap in under three minutes and restore qwerty4 > >>>> in thirty seconds, not including the restart. > >>>>F > >>>> You can try out the sample lines of text below to discover that6 > >>>> your fingers already know where etni should go. > >>>>3 > >>>> nineteen lean little saints settle in a nest 3 > >>>> jkjdfddj ldaj lkffld sakjfs sdffld kj a jdsf  > >>>>. > >>>> an alien eats an ant antenna in atlanta. > >>>> aj alkdj dafs aj ajf ajfdjja kj aflajfa > >>>>3 > >>>> elite sense entails a siesta in a satin seat 3 > >>>> dlkfd sdjsd djfakls a skdsfa kj a safkj sdaf  > >>>>& > >>>> a stain is seen at a linen sale& > >>>> a sfakj ks sddj af a lkjdj sald > >>>>2 > >>>> a latent latin talent tast tests in seattle2 > >>>> a lafdjf lafkj faldjf fasf fdsfs kj sdaffld > >>>>% > >>>> insane santa sails in sea salt % > >>>> kjsajd sajfa sakls kj sda salf  > >>>> > >>>> Many thanks > >>>> > >>>> > >>>  > >>> Looks like ROT-13 to me. > >>>  > >>> WWWebb > >>>  > >>> --I > >>> NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  > >>> correspondence. I > >>> All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for > > >>> services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at) > >>> http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/  > >>J > >>     AFAIK, the only thing that these letter swaps have in common withJ > >> rot-13 is that ed becomes de.  The 'etni' code is easy to decipher ifG > >> you let your fingers do the walking.  It is a decent way to find a > > >> post on google.  Thanks for your reply, Mr. Wkllkam wdbb. > > E > >    I goofed, er becomes re in rot13, e becoming d would be rot25.  > > G > >    Kf's tujjey, buf K caj fype abouf 40 wpm buf kt somdojd comds up / > > bdhkje md, my fypkjg *loois* lkid ROF-13...  > > & > >    Fhajks tor your posf, Mr. Wdbb. > G > IIRC (and I may be way way off here), the orginal "tests" proving the L > efiicacy of the dvorak vs. qwerty layout were performed and monitored by aK > company/individual who had a very large vested interest in the result and J > the actual results were far from conclusive, as distinct from the reportM > which was of course glowingly in favour of dvorak.  I seem to recall having A > read this at some urban legend site some time in the deep past.  >  > Dr. Dweeb   F     Apparently, August Dvorak himself was involved in the testing, andG his claims of 15%+ increase in typing speed have never been reproduced, D the definitive article is 'The parable of the keys' by Liebowitz andD Margolis.  However there is some evidence that fewer typing mistakesG are made when typing simple words and there may be some relief from RSI 	 symptoms. A     The problem is that almost everyone has some familiarity with B qwerty so the Dvorak layout comes with a built in disadvatage.  ItD would be interesting to find out if by keeping the letters under theG same fingers, there might be a marginal improvement in typing speed and 	 accuracy.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:18:53 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Reading VMS disks0 Message-ID: <11bjanpbi0edi8e@corp.supernews.com>   jemcdon41 wrote: > Hello, > H > A little over a year ago, I took over administration of linux/Unix(HP)	 > and VMS F > cluster.  The VMS licenses expired and despite my repeated issues toF > users, some of them did not copy their files to someplace where theyD > can now read them.  Now, some users are requesting access to these > disks. > F > I don't want to re-install VMS but if I had to recover the VMS disksF > what are my options?   As for hardware, I only have a VAX model 3000 > and several AlphaStations. > 	 > Thanks, 
 > j. mcdonald  >   G The above cannot be the whole story.  VMS licenses do not expire, with  E the exception of hobbyist and educational licenses, as far as I know.   E Is the goal to continue to use VMS, or just to get data from the VMS  G system.  Others have mentioned some alternatives for getting the data.  H However, the type of data could be an issue.  Text files are one thing. G   RMS files with other than text are pretty useless on other operating   systems.  G If your use is non-commercial, you could get hobbyist licenses for the  D systems.  I'm not real clear on the status of hobbyist licenses for  academic purposes.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 13:22:53 -0700' From: "jemcdon41" <jemcdon@hotmail.com>  Subject: Re: Reading VMS disksC Message-ID: <1119471773.526772.110690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   E These licenses were educational.  We did try to reset the system time B once but still didn't allow us to fool the license pack--the nodesF would not boot.  Since that time, we had two boot nodes, both of whichE have been dismantled and unfortunately, I don't know enough about VMS ' to be able to restore a booting system.   ? The goal is not to use VMS anymore, but only try to provide the E requested data to users.   Its sounds like my best bet is shipping it ! to someone to make a copy of it.    
 Jeff McDonald    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:43:30 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Reading VMS disks0 Message-ID: <11bkfatcsq53s03@corp.supernews.com>   Didier Morandi wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > J >> The above cannot be the whole story.  VMS licenses do not expire, with H >> the exception of hobbyist and educational licenses, as far as I know. >  > 1 > He means VMS Layered Products, David, probably.  >  > D.  4 What layered products were sold for periods of time?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:41:21 +0200 3 From: Michael Unger <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?+ Message-ID: <3htmpfFippafU1@individual.net>   - On 2005-06-22 18:39, "Charlie Hammond" wrote:   3 > In article <11bijohmcito28a@corp.supernews.com>,  C > "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <david@hpaq.net> writes:  > M >>What would it take for HP/Compaq and Intel to rekindle the Alpha processor.  >  > Money.  H Which HP isn't making currently because of the Alphacide -- you only get7 money from customers trusting in the vendor's promises.    > [...]  > I > And the re-start cost for Alpha would be pretty much a full new startup > > cost.  It isn't a matter of just turning the switch back on.  % Because of "We have burnt our boats"?    > [...]  > A > On the other hand...  No, don't call me pessimistic -- Call me  9 > optimistic about OpenVMS I64 on Itanium server systems.   > "Optimistic" and "realistic" doesn't need to be the very same.   Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. 5 My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:11:37 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11bjaa6l9fddbb4@corp.supernews.com>  - David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:   > I have just a sinple question. > M > What would it take for HP/Compaq and Intel to rekindle the Alpha processor. 5 > Does anyone think that it would now be worth doing? M > Does anyone think that maybe there is still some secret development ongoing , > (maybe near a black helicopter base! ;0) ) > 8 > We,as you know sell quite a few Alpha systems for VMS. > > > I have been asked 3 - I repeat 3 times if we can get Itanium* > equipment.Mostly for budgetory purposes. >  > That worries me... > K > Most people I have asked are not migrating any time soon (with not even a & > glimmer of an idea when) to Itanium. > Worrying to say the least...  D Well David, after seeing the existing replies to this question, and C expecting to see more, it appears that you are not the only person   thinking about this subject.  D For the short term, as mentioned by some, Alpha does not need to be F rekindled, it's still being produced.  The EV7 is a rather nice chip, G fast, and scales very well.  My memory is that there was not to be any  C single processor EV7 bases systems, and I think that is a mistake.  I Opteron/Athlon 64 has demonstrated that the on-chip memory controller is  F a good thing.  All HP has to do is continue to have IBM fab the CPUs,  and continue to build systems.  H As to the question of "would HP do this?", I think that it would take a H very high level decision, and that it would pretty much kill VMS on the H itanic, something that HP might take a rather dim view of.  The problem G is that HP wants to push the itanic, but customers don't want the cost  F of converting to a new architecture, however easy or hard that may be.  B There is always the question of egos.  Customers don't like to be F pushed.  HP is definitely pushing on them to move to itanic.  It will C push some customers to other vendors.  Each time that happens, the  G available pool of potential repeat customer purchases becomes smaller.  H Regardless of what HP says, I don't see too many new customers taking a E look at the situation with itanic and jumping into waters of unknown  F depth.  The only advantage of new customers is that they aren't being H pushed to convert from VAX/Alpha, and would be more receptive to itanic.  D At this time, I don't think HP will continue to produce Alpha based F systems.  They have every capability to do so, and even to reduce the D cost of building an Alpha based system.  Most of the design work is ? done, it just needs to be used.  But they want to sell itanic.  5 Regardless of customer desires.  Things could change.   @ As for the future, as others have said, there is no R&D on next H generation CPUs.  Many VMS users could exist on the current performance @ of EV6 and EV7, so Alpha would not be hurt by being bypassed in H performance as much as more 'commodity' type of CPUs.  VMS is the lever G that would sell Alphas.  Note that there are people still running VAXs.   I Nothing is forever, and eventually there would need to be something new,  F either a re-started Alpha effort, x86-64, or something else, possibly C even an itanic that survives and prospers.  Customers would prefer  B Alpha, but over sufficient time, with the continued production of H current generation Alphas, customers could move to any new architecture ! at a speed of their own choosing.   F As for the possibility of emulation, in my opinion, it will be a very G long time before there is anything fast enough to emulate Alpha and be   faster than today's Alphas.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:23:50 GMT % From: Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <slrndbjem6.6ho.rivie@Stench.no.domain>   I On 2005-06-22, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote: 7 > My understanding was Apple are going x86 not Itanium. = > Have you got a reference saying they are going to Itanium ?   B Cringely over at http://www.pbs.org/cringely/ seemed to think they# would. Laughed myself silly, I did.  --  
 Roger Ivie rivie@ridgenet.net http://anachronda.webhop.org/  -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- 
 Version: 3.12 H GCS/P d- s:+++ a+ C++ UB--(++++) !P L- !E W++ N++ o-- K w O- M+ V+++ PS+? PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X-- R tv++ b++ DI+++ D+ G e++ h--- r+++ z+++   ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:54:36 +0200 + From: Robert Boers <r_boers@softresint.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?6 Message-ID: <42b9c1fe$0$1155$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch>   Dave Froble wrote: [snip]H > As for the possibility of emulation, in my opinion, it will be a very I > long time before there is anything fast enough to emulate Alpha and be   > faster than today's Alphas.  > E I don't think that is true anymore with the very fast dual/multicore   AMD64/EMT64 architecture.    Robert   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:41:50 -0400 + From: Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?G Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.62.0506221120020.233@net-56658.fas.harvard.edu>   B On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:  K > If HP were to go x86 - would HP put hardware restrictions on the systems  J > to force VMS users to purchase specific models? If HP didn't, I am sure J > they would have a huge "black market" of VMS installed on DELL PCs etc. K > They still do it with certain NICS, Gigabit cards, scsi controllers etc.  K > I don't think it would be in their interests to develop the X86 platform  	 > if not.   B Most of the existing hardware restrictions for OpenVMS/Alpha are aA reflection of the availability of device drivers or sometimes the E arcana of PC hardware that expects to interact with a BIOS instead of A the SRM console.  If you're willing to write your own drivers and C forgo vendor support (or perhaps get vendor support from the people B that wrote your driver) then you can use quite a bit more hardwareF than what HP certifies.  I realize that neither of these options makes@ sense for people in a production datacenter environment, but I'm- speaking here only of technology limitations.   F I think the SRM console has to be one of the biggest technical hurdlesE to an x86 port of VMS.  x86 platforms generally use a BIOS.  In fact, C many of the Alpha platforms that don't support VMS are disqualified E because they use AlphaBIOS (designed for Windows NT/Alpha) instead of E the SRM console.  I don't know what Itanium uses, but if it's similar E to the x86 BIOS then I would imagine that this constituted a big part  of the Itanium port of VMS.   D Even bigger than the console is a MACRO32 compiler that targets x86.F I suppose if they can write one for Alpha and another one for Itanium,D then they can write one for x86.  But it's a big effort nonetheless.  A Many people have erroneously cited the lack of four CPU privilege E levels on x86 as a reason why a VMS port is impossible.  In fact, the A x86 architecture has supported four CPU privilege levels for some ! time; at least since the Pentium.   C All of this effort pales in comparison to what would be required to D restart Alpha production, though.  The cost of developing CPUs theseD days is just enormous.  It might cost you only ~$200K to hire a goodE engineer, but he will need upwards of $1 million per year in software F licensing for the tools he uses.  Some firms even work their engineersE in shifts in order to maximize the value they get from their software E tools.  That's how HP and Intel managed to get the cost of developing  the Itanium up so high.   D Of course, the Alpha team was unique in this respect: they developed= their own tools in house.  (A friend of mine who did a summer D intership with the Alpha team at DEC in 1997, told me that the toolsD ran on VMS -- not surprising, really.)  I have no idea what the fateF of those tools is today, but I think it's safe to assume that they are? no longer being maintained.  Software doesn't wear out, but the D expertise to use, maintain and extend it does.  Since the Alpha teamB has been scattered to the four winds now, reassembling a quorum isE probably impossible.  Most likely, before resuming work on the Alpha, E the existing designs would have to be ported over to use the standard : tools that fresh-out-of-college engineers know how to use.  E Apple's recent decision to switch to x86 is a reflection of the harsh D reality that you can't justify the development and fabrication costsF of a CPU unless you have huge volume.  IBM certainly knows how to makeC a low-power high-performance PowerPC (witness the Cell processor in D the PlayStation 3), but Apple doesn't generate enough volume for IBMA to justify putting resources into the G5 speedups that Steve Jobs A needed. And switching to IBM from Motorola (or "Freescale" as the C spun-off semiconductor division calls itself) was already an act of A desperation because Motorola couldn't provide the speedups.  Jobs * really had no choice but to switch horses.  C I really, really wish they hadn't pulled the plug on Alpha.  It was F the best RISC architecture on the market.  And x86 is a really, reallyF ugly ISA in comparison.  But as the Preacher said, "The race is not toA the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the F wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of2 skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."   Chip   --   Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell Turn on, log in, tune out    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:52:51 +0200 3 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?= Message-ID: <42b9ddb4$0$78280$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:2 > In article <11bijohmcito28a@corp.supernews.com>,C > "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <david@hpaq.net> writes: ! >> I have just a sinple question.  >>C >> What would it take for HP/Compaq and Intel to rekindle the Alpha 
 >> processor.  >  > An act of God? > 6 >> Does anyone think that it would now be worth doing? >  > Yes. > F >> Does anyone think that maybe there is still some secret development5 >> ongoing (maybe near a black helicopter base! ;0) )  > B > Most unlikely.  That would be an admission by the heads of Intel? > that they made a mistake.  Never going to happen, even if the $ > only other option were bankruptcy. >  >>9 >> We,as you know sell quite a few Alpha systems for VMS.  >>? >> I have been asked 3 - I repeat 3 times if we can get Itanium + >> equipment.Mostly for budgetory purposes.  > B > I have only seen one Itanium running VMS.  It was not bought butA > was, as most people here have suspected, provided by HP gratis, ? > Personally, I doubt that any itaniums have actually been sold , > other than the few that are running Linux. >   M I suspect that some are running Win2003AS/EE (is this the right version?) as   well   Dweeb  >> >> That worries me...  >>E >> Most people I have asked are not migrating any time soon (with not . >> even a glimmer of an idea when) to Itanium. >> Worrying to say the least...  > D > I feel safe saying that if HP had not given the datacenter here anC > Itanium to play with there is little if any likelihood they would D > have bought one now or int he foreseeable future.  I do not expect  > that we are unique in any way. >  > bill     ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:19:42 +0200 3 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?= Message-ID: <42b9e400$0$78286$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>   J I am just replying to the root for want of a better place to say my $0.02.  H It seems that some of you have forgotten a crucial piece of the puzzle. H What will determine whether a customer X will convert from an Alpha/VMS G system to an IA64/VMS system or something different altogether is very  0 likley to be something that they cannot control.  L Not everyone can just convert to IA64, just like everyone could not convert L from VAX to Alpha.  There are major software development tools that are not K going to make the leap, meaning that customers using these tools will need  H to re-develop for VMS using some other tool, or move to another OS that 6 supports the tool that the applications currently use.  M I did a search at the Cognos site for "VMS" and it made exactly one (1) hit,  I on an announcment over 5 years old !!!  There are quite a few Cognos/VMS  I sites in the world.  I will bet you a beer that Cognos is never going to  B port Powerhouse to IA64, despite the number of customers using it.  I Every VMS customer who has based their development on Powerhouse now has  K about 5 years to redevelop their systems using something else, or redeploy  K on a platform Cognos supports.  Whoops, there go lots of OracleRdb clients  6 out the window as well, because OracleRdb is VMS only.  F I am sure we can find others.  Uniface perhaps? Rally from Oracle has J already fallen on this alter.  Others I am sure exist.  For every product J that does not make it to IA64, some number of customers will be forced to I abandon VMS, no matter whether they believe IA64 is the best thing since  	 gravity !    just an observation.  	 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:14:22 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: Revival of Alpha?R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB650D3B@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----= > From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com]=20  > Sent: June 22, 2005 6:20 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com   > Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha? >=20  	 [snip...]   < > I did a search at the Cognos site for "VMS" and it made=20 > exactly one (1) hit,=20 B > on an announcment over 5 years old !!!  There are quite a few=20 > Cognos/VMS=20 > > sites in the world.  I will bet you a beer that Cognos is=20 > never going to=20 D > port Powerhouse to IA64, despite the number of customers using it. >=20: > Every VMS customer who has based their development on=20 > Powerhouse now has=20 = > about 5 years to redevelop their systems using something=20  > else, or redeploy=20= > on a platform Cognos supports.  Whoops, there go lots of=20  > OracleRdb clients=208 > out the window as well, because OracleRdb is VMS only. >=20   Doc,=20   F Try searching Cognos.com with "OpenVMS" rather than "VMS" and then let; us know if there is any difference in the hits you receive.    Thx,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:38:53 -0400  From: "DavidT" <david@hpaq.net>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11bjssl3be0q45b@news.supernews.com>   Enlightened.... DT  2 How about we send this troll to HP management?!?!?K I think there is a general consensus that Alpha DOES need to be revived and 
 maybe this1 kind of loose lipping could help sink the Itanic. H I wonder what analyst helped make HP go to bed with Intel... yeah I know they have been in bed K for years, but what twit actually made the "boredroom" convinced enought to   make the decision to kill Alpha.  E And if that person is still around, I would offer them a job as sales  executive in a heartbeat ! dt --   Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Suite 180  Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 4476622 Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com     > "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote in message7 news:42b9e400$0$78286$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk... L > I am just replying to the root for want of a better place to say my $0.02. > I > It seems that some of you have forgotten a crucial piece of the puzzle. I > What will determine whether a customer X will convert from an Alpha/VMS H > system to an IA64/VMS system or something different altogether is very2 > likley to be something that they cannot control. > E > Not everyone can just convert to IA64, just like everyone could not  convert I > from VAX to Alpha.  There are major software development tools that are  not L > going to make the leap, meaning that customers using these tools will needI > to re-develop for VMS using some other tool, or move to another OS that 8 > supports the tool that the applications currently use. > I > I did a search at the Cognos site for "VMS" and it made exactly one (1)  hit,J > on an announcment over 5 years old !!!  There are quite a few Cognos/VMSJ > sites in the world.  I will bet you a beer that Cognos is never going toD > port Powerhouse to IA64, despite the number of customers using it. > J > Every VMS customer who has based their development on Powerhouse now hasL > about 5 years to redevelop their systems using something else, or redeployL > on a platform Cognos supports.  Whoops, there go lots of OracleRdb clients8 > out the window as well, because OracleRdb is VMS only. > G > I am sure we can find others.  Uniface perhaps? Rally from Oracle has K > already fallen on this alter.  Others I am sure exist.  For every product K > that does not make it to IA64, some number of customers will be forced to J > abandon VMS, no matter whether they believe IA64 is the best thing since > gravity !  >  > just an observation. >  > Dr. Dweeb  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:51:08 GMT % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?: Message-ID: <MPmue.1724$re.149@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>  6 "Andreas Davour" <ante@update.uu.se> wrote in message . news:cs9y8922x7n.fsf@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE...1 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  > 2 >> "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" wrote: >> >2 >> > NO troll intended... but I really am curious.H >> > I still cannot believe that HP is crazy enough to just abandon the  >> > Alpha. E >> > They had a perfectly round wheel and now they have gone to a new  >> > "'better"hexagonal wheel. >>K >> HP is a PR company, not a technology company. It has strategic alliances E >> with Intel and Microsoft and this is what drives the big decisions " >> instead of what customers need. >>K >> Everyone knows IA64 is as flop. Not everyone knows how Intel and HP will / >> find a way to save face and get out of IA64. H >> Maybe they will continue to swim upstream with IA64, going nowhere or? >> backwards because they don't want to be seen abandonning it.  > K > For some unbelievable reason Apple are going to use them. Maybe that will   > give the IA64 a bit of a push. >   L Apple will be using X86 chips.  Not Itanium.  One of the main reasons Apple L cited for switching chips was the availability of low power/low heat chips.  Itanium doesn't fit that bill.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:57:05 GMT % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?: Message-ID: <lVmue.1726$re.116@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>  6 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message % news:3ht5m8FipmleU3@individual.net...  > B > I have only seen one Itanium running VMS.  It was not bought butA > was, as most people here have suspected, provided by HP gratis, ? > Personally, I doubt that any itaniums have actually been sold , > other than the few that are running Linux. >   0 We had to pay for ours!  Who's giving them away?   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jun 2005 00:23:08 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?+ Message-ID: <3hudncFiv0n4U2@individual.net>   R In article <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB650D3B@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>,* 	"Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes: > H > Try searching Cognos.com with "OpenVMS" rather than "VMS" and then let= > us know if there is any difference in the hits you receive.   B Being as "OpenVMS" contains "VMS" unless the search engine is evenD wackier than Google he should already have seen all the entries that contain "OpenVMS".   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 17:28:12 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?C Message-ID: <1119486492.698342.287760@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Main, Kerry wrote:   > Doc, > H > Try searching Cognos.com with "OpenVMS" rather than "VMS" and then let= > us know if there is any difference in the hits you receive.  > 6 > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.  B There's good news and not so good news.  With "OpenVMS" you get 17D hits.  That's the good news.  The bad news is that they are still noE newer than 2000.  But then more good news is that their search engine C sucks.  OpenVMS is mentioned in the "Roadmap Letter for 2005" which C doesn't show up in the search results.  The bad news is that if you E read the roadmap they are touting OpenVMS V7.2 (!) support for Oracle F 9iR2 but not 10g and also no plans for IA64 support on either OpenVMS,= HP-UX or Linux.  However they are still supportin VAX OpenVMS ! platforms.  Here is the roadmap < K http://www.cognos.com/products/powerhouse/downloads/Roadmap_Letter_2005.pdf  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:54:31 -0400  From: "DavidT" <david@hpaq.net>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11bk1aeni9hop33@news.supernews.com>   whoa there everyone    Just went to HP's website   J NEW!!! 1.3Ghz EV7 cpu ... so someone somewhere is continuing work on AlphaG chips (unless they are sitting on shelves waiting for the right time to  market them)J Who is doing it... what would HP want do you think for the rights to build% Alpha and continue speed improvements  1.3Ghz, 64 bit  ain't half bad  # Now to get the world to notice.....    dt   --   Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Suite 180  Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 4476622 Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com     + <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote in message = news:1119486492.698342.287760@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...  >  >  > Main, Kerry wrote: >  > > Doc, > > J > > Try searching Cognos.com with "OpenVMS" rather than "VMS" and then let? > > us know if there is any difference in the hits you receive.  > > 8 > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > D > There's good news and not so good news.  With "OpenVMS" you get 17F > hits.  That's the good news.  The bad news is that they are still noG > newer than 2000.  But then more good news is that their search engine E > sucks.  OpenVMS is mentioned in the "Roadmap Letter for 2005" which E > doesn't show up in the search results.  The bad news is that if you G > read the roadmap they are touting OpenVMS V7.2 (!) support for Oracle H > 9iR2 but not 10g and also no plans for IA64 support on either OpenVMS,? > HP-UX or Linux.  However they are still supportin VAX OpenVMS # > platforms.  Here is the roadmap <  > K http://www.cognos.com/products/powerhouse/downloads/Roadmap_Letter_2005.pdf  > >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:59:53 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?+ Message-ID: <42BA1798.703E0C18@comcast.net>   
 DavidT wrote:  >  > whoa there everyone  >  > Just went to HP's website  > L > NEW!!! 1.3Ghz EV7 cpu ... so someone somewhere is continuing work on AlphaI > chips (unless they are sitting on shelves waiting for the right time to  > market them)L > Who is doing it... what would HP want do you think for the rights to build' > Alpha and continue speed improvements   > 1.3Ghz, 64 bit  ain't half bad > % > Now to get the world to notice.....   2 Does Islandco have any kind of a marketing budget?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:07:22 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?+ Message-ID: <42BA195A.5C043447@comcast.net>   / "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" wrote:  >   > I have just a sinple question. > M > What would it take for HP/Compaq and Intel to rekindle the Alpha processor.   A The Return of Jesus, The Father's Voice from the sky, and perhaps C several major cataclysms to get the world's attention (can you say,  "9-11"? ..."tsunami"?)  5 > Does anyone think that it would now be worth doing?    If you have to ask, ...   M > Does anyone think that maybe there is still some secret development ongoing , > (maybe near a black helicopter base! ;0) )   Hope always springs eternal...  8 > We,as you know sell quite a few Alpha systems for VMS.  , You may be one of only a very few survivors.  > > I have been asked 3 - I repeat 3 times if we can get Itanium* > equipment.Mostly for budgetory purposes. >  > That worries me...  * Doesn't seem to worry the "bridge crew"...   Now *THAT* frightens *ME*!!!  K > Most people I have asked are not migrating any time soon (with not even a & > glimmer of an idea when) to Itanium. > Worrying to say the least...  E Depends on your point of view. If you're looking at them as prospects 4 for sales of Alpha spares, that's not such bad news.  F On the other hand, if you're looking at Itanic futures, well, I'm toldA that some rust stain removers can be quite lethal if ingested ...    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 21:33:42 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?B Message-ID: <1119501222.136114.50800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:  > > L > >For some unbelievable reason Apple are going to use them. Maybe that will! > >give the IA64 a bit of a push.  > >  > 7 > My understanding was Apple are going x86 not Itanium. = > Have you got a reference saying they are going to Itanium ?  >   F They're not using Itanium.  That's just left over speculation based onB the lack of specific information on the day things were announced.E Since that day, the porting documents that Apple has released clearly D indicate they are migrating to the x86 platform.  This would includeG both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions.  So far no indications of the IA64 / architechure being used has been substantiated.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:58:03 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11bkg677c0hd417@corp.supernews.com>   Robert Boers wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > [snip] > I >> As for the possibility of emulation, in my opinion, it will be a very  J >> long time before there is anything fast enough to emulate Alpha and be  >> faster than today's Alphas. >>G > I don't think that is true anymore with the very fast dual/multicore   > AMD64/EMT64 architecture.  >  > Robert  G Does emulation of a CPU benefit from a multi-CPU environment?  I don't  E know much/anything about it, but I'd think that emulation would be a  $ single threaded type of application.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:04:56 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11bkgj4j7si4k09@corp.supernews.com>   Dr. Dweeb wrote:   > For every product L > that does not make it to IA64, some number of customers will be forced to K > abandon VMS, no matter whether they believe IA64 is the best thing since   > gravity !   B That valid observation shows just how stupid it is to drop Alpha,  regardless of what itanic does.   G HP just doesn't seem to get the concept that when you chase a customer  8 away, they rarely will move to another of your products.  E I'm wondering just how much of this market they are willing to lose?   Possibly all of it.   I If IBM wanted a niche market, they could somehow get ownership or use of  F whatever Samsung has, continue to produce Alpha CPUs, develop systems 7 using them, and serve the customers HP is chasing away.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:08:08 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11bkgp57vgjcveb@corp.supernews.com>  
 DavidT wrote:  > Enlightened.... DT > 4 > How about we send this troll to HP management?!?!?M > I think there is a general consensus that Alpha DOES need to be revived and  > maybe this3 > kind of loose lipping could help sink the Itanic. J > I wonder what analyst helped make HP go to bed with Intel... yeah I know > they have been in bed M > for years, but what twit actually made the "boredroom" convinced enought to " > make the decision to kill Alpha.  E Frankly, regardless of the conspiricy theories, I think that killing  H Alpha was all Compaq.  They just didn't want to be in the CPU business, I and when Intel pushed a bit, it was enough for them.  There was also the  E stories of Compaq being in a cash bind, and looking for ways to save   money, SHORT TERM.  G > And if that person is still around, I would offer them a job as sales  > executive in a heartbeat ! > dt     --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:11:52 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11bkh02qklj1pf1@corp.supernews.com>  
 DavidT wrote:  > whoa there everyone  >  > Just went to HP's website  > L > NEW!!! 1.3Ghz EV7 cpu ... so someone somewhere is continuing work on AlphaI > chips (unless they are sitting on shelves waiting for the right time to  > market them)L > Who is doing it... what would HP want do you think for the rights to build' > Alpha and continue speed improvements   > 1.3Ghz, 64 bit  ain't half bad  C There is the theory that they wouldn't allow anyone else to market  I Alphas, seeing as they would lose those customers.  The key point is how  @ many would move to itanic, and how many will be lost regardless?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:42:30 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?= Message-ID: <42ba4bc2$0$67255$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Chip Coldwell wrote:H > I think the SRM console has to be one of the biggest technical hurdlesG > to an x86 port of VMS.  x86 platforms generally use a BIOS.  In fact, E > many of the Alpha platforms that don't support VMS are disqualified G > because they use AlphaBIOS (designed for Windows NT/Alpha) instead of G > the SRM console.  I don't know what Itanium uses, but if it's similar G > to the x86 BIOS then I would imagine that this constituted a big part  > of the Itanium port of VMS.   G As far as I remember, in the old days of the Windows NT for Alpha, the  > machines capable of running OpenVMS could also run Windows NT.  C > Many people have erroneously cited the lack of four CPU privilege G > levels on x86 as a reason why a VMS port is impossible.  In fact, the C > x86 architecture has supported four CPU privilege levels for some # > time; at least since the Pentium.   D You are right that x86 has four levels of privilege.  (Actually the D newest have a fifth, but that is intended for virtualisation, i.e., I running more than one OS on the same CPU at the same time.)  However, as  F far as I understand, x86-64 has only two levels of privilege.  And so F has Itanium.  Moving to x86-32 is not really an option since VMS is a F server operating systems, and the users already need more than 4GB of H virtual memory per process.  I wonder if the number of levels really is G that much of a problem.  First of all, the fact that VMS is running on  F Itanium demonstrates that you can do with just two levels,  Secondly, E you really only need three levels bad.  The kernel and the executive  H levels could be merge into one.  Perhaps DCL could be running in x86-32 3 mode so that it could have its own privilege level.    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 13:20:44 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe 3 Message-ID: <QFqy8hbyTKRy@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <11bgjmh48p19l2e@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > I > It's in my (usually feeble these days) mind that some VAXs running VMS  H > used the floating point processor for some calculations.  Neither the H > operands not the result were floating point, but the FP processor was < > used for performance.  I just cannot remember the details.  >    Probably model dependent.  On the 11/780 the floating pointB    accelerator (a slightly different concept than an FP processor)F    was used for all arithmetic calcuations, including addressing, thatG    it could possibly* be used for, except the INDEX instruction.  Which =    is why the compiler writers never used the powerfull INDEX     instruction.    --------------- D * some integer operations were not sufficiently fleshed out prior to reaching the CPU   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:34:43 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ) Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe ( Message-ID: <opsss2z5wuzgicya@hyrrokkin>  , On 22 Jun 2005 13:20:44 -0500, Bob Koehler  0 <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:  ? >   Probably model dependent.  On the 11/780 the floating point D >    accelerator (a slightly different concept than an FP processor)H >    was used for all arithmetic calcuations, including addressing, thatI >    it could possibly* be used for, except the INDEX instruction.  Which ? >    is why the compiler writers never used the powerfull INDEX  >    instruction.   
 PL/I uses it.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:29:22 -0500 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> ' Subject: Re: VMS boot on AlphaPC 264DP? + Message-ID: <3huojpFiqg5fU1@individual.net>    Dave Froble wrote: > I > EV5 and EV6 are two seperate and different CPUs.  You cannot use clock  H > speed to compare them.  Cannot remember details, but seem to remember J > some benchmarks showing EV6 with a slower clock speed outperforming EV5  > significantly.   FWIW:   A When I got my DS10L (466MHz EV6), I did some comparisons with my  ; AS255/233 (233MHZ EV45).  It averaged about 5 times faster.   E So, adjusting for the clock rate, it may be that an EV6 is 2.5 times  - faster than a EV45 at equivalent clock rates.    --  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2005 19:41:47 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>* Subject: VMS Memory Management vs. others'C Message-ID: <1119494507.905337.184550@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   G How does VMS Mem. Mgmt. stand up against other OSes'? We always hear in F this group about VMS's security, reliability, clustering, TCO, uptime,0 logical names, RMS, ....  What about Mem. Mgmt.?  > Do any of the others have anything like AWSA? Proactive memory reclamation? Swapper trimming?  D Admittedly a somewhat open-ended question. Much thanks to anyone who answers.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.348 ************************