1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 23 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 349       Contents:P Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screaP Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screaP Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screaP Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screaP Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screaP Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screaP Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa! Call for Data for VMS Consultants & Content Management Systems for OpenVMS& Content Management Systems for OpenVMS) Re: Fleeing Compaq customer caught by Sun 1 Re: Hackers and Microsoft Engineers, very amusing 1 Re: Hackers and Microsoft Engineers, very amusing  Re: How to FTP with UCX 3.3?; Re: HP is commited to keep on with the VMS Hobbyist Program ; Re: HP is commited to keep on with the VMS Hobbyist Program ; Re: HP is commited to keep on with the VMS Hobbyist Program $ Re: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha?) Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk $ Re: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS$ Re: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS Re: My Multia Adventure  Re: OpenVMS and XML questions  Re: OpenVMS and XML questions  Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console 8 Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?)8 Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?) Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  RE: Revival of Alpha? 	 SAN & DFU ) System Monitor Tool & Strong PW generator - Re: System Monitor Tool & Strong PW generator # VAX software available for download   Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe  Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe  Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe  Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe  Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe Re: VMS boot on AlphaPC 264DP? Re: VMS boot on AlphaPC 264DP?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:20:56 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.ukY Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa ) Message-ID: <d9e5uo$7fk$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   q In article <zBRauXR+5$SB@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: _ >In article <1119379356.453549.59970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes:  > B >> he is a Christian like I do, the bible is 100% truth and either/ >> you accept it and follow it as such or burn   >   G Ignoring the contradictions of a literal 6 day creation with scientific 	 evidence.   O If the Bible is 100% true (presumably the word of God passed down to one author M - Moses ? ) then how do you reconcile the different order of creation in the  5 two different accounts of creation given in Genesis ?    see   % http://members.aol.com/bbu85/nous.htm   H In the first version Man and Woman are created after plants and animals.N In the second version Man is created before plants and animals with Woman then being created.  M Even if the Bible was originally the word of God it has been handed down over J thousands of years. It would hardly be surprising if during all that time N the text had altered from the original. But that would mean that it wasn't anyF longer 100% true. (indeed if you just look at English Bibles since theL inventing of the Printing Press you will find many variations and a few withL gross errors eg the 1631 King James version - "Thou shall commit adultery").  L see http://www.catholicapologetics.net/0002kjv.htm#On%20the%20Lighter%20side      
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University        5 >   And those who say they are Christians unlike you?  >    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 06:29:13 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com Y Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa C Message-ID: <1119533353.911513.189420@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E what does it matter if two or ten writers wrote Genesis?  The fact is  that weither one or two D writers, they both come to the same conclusion.  Weither plants were here first or man isB irrelevant.  Variations can be expected coming from something that happened 6,000 years agoD and man being almost (except Noah) wiped out by a global flood.  The bible and the events it D describes have never been disproven yet ... on the contrary they are being proven by science E and archaeology every day.  I am still waiting for you to explain the  following about Mt. Sinai!   http://www.jimandpenny.com/en/   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:39:10 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa 3 Message-ID: <BISXRpxt00xo@eisner.encompasserve.org>   J In article <d9e5uo$7fk$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:s > In article <zBRauXR+5$SB@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: ` >>In article <1119379356.453549.59970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes: >>C >>> he is a Christian like I do, the bible is 100% truth and either 0 >>> you accept it and follow it as such or burn  >> > I > Ignoring the contradictions of a literal 6 day creation with scientific  > evidence.  >   E    Carefull, I didn't write any of the above.  Please keep your Bob's     straight.  K > If the Bible is 100% true (presumably the word of God passed down to one   > author - Moses ? )    K    Not if you actually _read_ the bible.  Many of the books in my sister's  K    copy start out by explaining that the writer is a scribe in some court,  K    writing down information obtained third hand at best.  Theologians have  D    actually idenitified one such scribe by name.  And the whole New G    Testament was written long after Moses passed.  It would be hard to  C    claim to be a Christian and not accept the New Testament at some 	    level.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:18:47 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.ukY Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa ) Message-ID: <d9egc7$aor$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   _ In article <1119533353.911513.189420@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes: F >what does it matter if two or ten writers wrote Genesis?  The fact is >that weither one or twoE >writers, they both come to the same conclusion.  Weither plants were  >here first or man is C >irrelevant.  Variations can be expected coming from something that  >happened 6,000 years ago B >and man being almost (except Noah) wiped out by a global flood.    7 You were making the claim that the Bible was 100% true. L Something containing contradictions and which has been inadvertently altered: over thousands of years cannot by definition be 100% true.       >The >bible and the events itE >describes have never been disproven yet ... on the contrary they are  >being proven by scienceF >and archaeology every day.  I am still waiting for you to explain the >following about Mt. Sinai!  >  >http://www.jimandpenny.com/en/  >   M Explain what about Mt Sinai ? All I see at that URL is a web page describing  H two tourists' visit to Saudi Arabia. I'm not going to waste time lookingP through the whole site. Whether the Mt Sinai mentioned in the Bible is there or K the more traditional site at Jebel Musa or elsewhere I don't know and don't  particularly care.    
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:35:32 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.ukY Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa ) Message-ID: <d9ehbk$b0o$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   q In article <BISXRpxt00xo@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: K >In article <d9e5uo$7fk$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes: t >> In article <zBRauXR+5$SB@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:a >>>In article <1119379356.453549.59970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes:  >>> D >>>> he is a Christian like I do, the bible is 100% truth and either1 >>>> you accept it and follow it as such or burn   >>>  >>  J >> Ignoring the contradictions of a literal 6 day creation with scientific >> evidence. >>   > F >   Carefull, I didn't write any of the above.  Please keep your Bob's
 >   straight.   G Yes bob@instantwhip.com did as indicated by the (now) >>>> indentation.    > L >> If the Bible is 100% true (presumably the word of God passed down to one  >> author - Moses ? )  > L >   Not if you actually _read_ the bible.  Many of the books in my sister's L >   copy start out by explaining that the writer is a scribe in some court, L >   writing down information obtained third hand at best.  Theologians have E >   actually idenitified one such scribe by name.  And the whole New  H >   Testament was written long after Moses passed.  It would be hard to D >   claim to be a Christian and not accept the New Testament at some
 >   level. >   O Agreed. Since I was talking about Genesis as an example I was referring to the  E tradition that Moses wrote the first five books of the old testament.  I apologise for the sloppiness.     
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 11:56:01 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa 3 Message-ID: <0Pqxr4teXr4l@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <1119533353.911513.189420@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes: G > what does it matter if two or ten writers wrote Genesis?  The fact is  > that weither one or two F > writers, they both come to the same conclusion.  Weither plants were > here first or man isD > irrelevant.  Variations can be expected coming from something that > happened 6,000 years ago  E    If there are variations, then which is God's truth?  How can we be C    expected to hold the Bible to be the infallible word if it makes     inconsistent statements?    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 10:22:19 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com Y Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa C Message-ID: <1119547339.087215.293730@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   D if you would read the site and look at all their pictures, you would> find that Moses and Mt Sinai were not just stories as many say@ but actual events ... look at their accounts and pictures of theA split rock at Horeb, Elijahs cave, the golden calf altar, and the 9 burnt mountain peak where the rocks were smashed open but > only burnt on the outside (not volcanic), the possible burningA bush, quail in the desert, the crossing point in the red sea that ? has a natural bridge rising from the depths of the red sea, and ? diving pictures that found egytian chariot wheels and parts and > human bones lying at the bottom ... the possible burning bush,? acacia trees (used for the ark of the covenant), water smoothed A rocks running into a small lake bed at the base of the split rock > at Horeb, camps with rocks with etched foot pairs on them (theE Israelites were told to mark with their feet the land they dwelt) ... @ also in a small town away a cave that a syrian arcaeologist told; them were the caves of Moses with writings on the wall that > stated this, the bitter springs of marah, the seven springs of> elim ... the evidence is overwhelming and all is fenced in and< protected by the saudi goverment ... what are you afraid of? Read and believe!    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:52:37 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> * Subject: Call for Data for VMS Consultants3 Message-ID: <42baa287$0$1859$626a14ce@news.free.fr>   L I have nearly finished my (yet another) VMSgateway site and wish to include & links towards VMS resources worldwide.  M If you wish so, please send me mail at didier dot morandi at freesurf dot fr  ( with a small resum of your competences.   Thanks,    D.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 03:51:29 -0700& From: francesco.gennai@gmail.com (F G)/ Subject: Content Management Systems for OpenVMS = Message-ID: <ba9cbcc1.0506230251.6b10f6b7@posting.google.com>   F I would know about any Content Management Systems (CMS) that have beenE ported or tested on OpenVMS/Apache or WASD/PHP or JAVA or Perl or....   ? Any suggestion around the topic will be appreciated very much.     rgds, 	 Francesco    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 03:51:30 -0700& From: francesco.gennai@gmail.com (F G)/ Subject: Content Management Systems for OpenVMS = Message-ID: <ba9cbcc1.0506230251.363ac05d@posting.google.com>   F I would know about any Content Management Systems (CMS) that have beenE ported or tested on OpenVMS/Apache or WASD/PHP or JAVA or Perl or....   ? Any suggestion around the topic will be appreciated very much.     rgds, 	 Francesco    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:17:01 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk2 Subject: Re: Fleeing Compaq customer caught by Sun) Message-ID: <d9e97t$8hi$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   _ In article <1119481240.023232.261760@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes: D >you know, I am tired of hearing all of this application bs ... if I@ >need an app and it doesn't exist, I write it!  Maybe instead ofD >complaining, you should be writing apps for vms ... sounds like you >could corner the market ... > G Years ago companies had big inhouse development teams writing their own  Financial etc applications. L But that time is long gone. Management was convinced ages ago that buying a D standardised package from a vendor was better than writing your own.O It doesn't matter whether you would be able to write a better application which = would fit your company better than any standardised package.  L (Most firms still have a small team of developers working on customising the5 standard package by adding extra programs around it.)   $ The standardised package is seen as   3 less work - It's already been written by the vendor + safer - It's being used  by other companies K not management's fault - If something goes wrong it's the vendors fault not /                          the inhouse department       
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:17:58 GMT/ From: Thierry Dussuet <thierry@dussuet.lugs.ch> : Subject: Re: Hackers and Microsoft Engineers, very amusing0 Message-ID: <slrndbks1n.1ej.thierry@MARS.Family>   Hello!  A On 2005-06-22, Dr. Dweeb <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote: L > However, I basically just want to stop some deviant living nearby using myM > connection to trade illicit items, thus avoiding having the police breaking M > down my door some day charging me with some nefarious activity.  I just use M > WEP, which is all that I have available I think.  There is nothing to steal 3 > in my transmissions worth spending time stealing.   H Have you thought of using VPN?  Thus, everybody in the VPN could use theL gateway and everybody else would be stuck outside (or just inside your wlan)   Thierry    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:47:09 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk: Subject: Re: Hackers and Microsoft Engineers, very amusing) Message-ID: <d9e7ft$7vm$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   s In article <42b9db91$0$78286$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> writes:   >david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:E >> In article <42b90e06$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. 3 >> Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> writes:  >>> Z wrote:$ >>>> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:N >Yes I was aware of all this (except the MS reference).  However, I basically K >just want to stop some deviant living nearby using my connection to trade  K >illicit items, thus avoiding having the police breaking down my door some  M >day charging me with some nefarious activity.  I just use WEP, which is all  A >that I have available I think.  There is nothing to steal in my  , >transmissions worth spending time stealing. >  OK but I'd still look into WPA.   H Most vendors of Access points and Wireless cards should have a firmware N upgrade to support at least WPA-PSK available. WPA is about two years old now.L Of course the vendor may no longer support really really old hardware or may have gone out of business.  K I'm aware that some vendors seem to only have firmware upgrades to support  I WPA-PSK for their "home products" rather than also providing support for  I WPA with 802.1x. That seems OK for home access points but seems a little  I stupid for wireless cards which people might also want to use with their   work's access point.        
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University        
 >Dr. Dweeb >  >>
 >> David Webb  >> Security team leader  >> CCSS  >> Middlesex University  >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Dr. Dweeb  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:50:16 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) % Subject: Re: How to FTP with UCX 3.3? 3 Message-ID: <f$ST6NEx7UTa@eisner.encompasserve.org>   u In article <1119468964.268671.253250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "joerojas@gmail.com" <joerojas@gmail.com> writes:   ; > I connected an AUI to UTP transceiver to the VAX AUI port F > I connected a cat5 cable to our 10/100 switch and to the transceiver > F > When I start FTP and enter the command CONNECT 192.168.3.3 I get the > error message:, > %FTP-E-NETERR, I/O error on network device# > -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout   D    I forget what model VAX you said you have.  A lot of them have a E    physical switch to choose between AUI and another media (thin wire G    BNC or twisted pair RJ45).  IIRC some of them have a console command A    to choose media, although I think that's more common on Alpha.   C    You may also have to force your 10/100 switch to 10 although you     shouldn't have to.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:49:22 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.comD Subject: Re: HP is commited to keep on with the VMS Hobbyist ProgramQ Message-ID: <OF59A17E2C.6929BFD6-ON85257029.00460EF8-85257029.004692DF@metso.com>   H Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> wrote on 06/23/2005 01:34:08 AM= :    > De : McQuaid, Ann (VMS) ( > Envoy=E9 : mercredi 22 juin 2005 19:40 > =C0 : Didier Morandi > Cc :% > Objet : RE: Hobbyist Program future  > 	 > Didier,  > ) >    Yes, we absolutely plan to continue.    Didier,   H I notice this response, while gratifying, continues a disturbing trend = in thatH it answers the initial question asked, but fails to address the concern= s  you 3 expressed regarding your "experiment" difficulties.   H Thus you are left feeling warm and fuzzy, but still unable to do useful=   work.   E I would have wished for a comment that your concerns were referred to  someone 2 who would contact you and/or fix the difficulties.  # (Most happy of your reinvolvement!)    -Norm    >  > Ann  >  > H -----------------------------------------------------------------------=	 ---------    > From: Didier Morandi( > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:33 AM > To: McQuaid, Ann (VMS) > Cc: " > Subject: Hobbyist Program future >  >  > Good morning Ann,  > E > May I ask you if HP has a plan to continue the VMS Hobbyist program  > since John > Wisniewski death?  > E > It seems that the site (http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/) is no more  > maintainedE > and we experiment difficulties to get Layered Products distribution  > kits once weF > have the licenses, mainly for VAX. For Alpha it is easy via the DSPP Progam.  >  > Many thanks for your help. > Best regards,  >  > D. >  > 0 > Didier MORANDI, Expert informaticien VMS & SAP2 > 13 chemin du Gu=E9, 1213 Petit-Lancy (GE) Suisse1 > T=E9l. : +336 7983 6418 ~ www.didiermorandi.com  >  >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:07:03 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> D Subject: Re: HP is commited to keep on with the VMS Hobbyist Program( Message-ID: <opsst1t1sizgicya@hyrrokkin>  G On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:14:11 -0400, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    wrote:   > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:  > K >> I notice this response, while gratifying, continues a disturbing trend    >> in  >> that K >> it answers the initial question asked, but fails to address the concerns  >> you6 >> expressed regarding your "experiment" difficulties. > J > I see this all the time.  The first sentence is answered.  The rest of  A > the e-mail seems to be ignored.  (Talking about other than HP).  > C > When I ask specifically, "did you read the entire e-mail?", the    > disturbing reply is "no".  > L > I think we're seeing people in a hurry who don't read an entire message,  F > assuming that the primary topic is in the first part of the message. > F > Damnit!  If the rest wasn't important, I wouldn't have wasted time   > typing it! >  So send one question per email.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:14:11 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> D Subject: Re: HP is commited to keep on with the VMS Hobbyist Program0 Message-ID: <11blraf125dlm22@corp.supernews.com>   norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:   K > I notice this response, while gratifying, continues a disturbing trend in  > thatJ > it answers the initial question asked, but fails to address the concerns > you 5 > expressed regarding your "experiment" difficulties.   G I see this all the time.  The first sentence is answered.  The rest of  ? the e-mail seems to be ignored.  (Talking about other than HP).   @ When I ask specifically, "did you read the entire e-mail?", the  disturbing reply is "no".   I I think we're seeing people in a hurry who don't read an entire message,  D assuming that the primary topic is in the first part of the message.  C Damnit!  If the rest wasn't important, I wouldn't have wasted time  
 typing it!   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:34:23 +0000 (UTC) = From: jlw@psulias.psu.edu (j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818) - Subject: Re: LDAP API for OpenVMS v7.2 Alpha? . Message-ID: <d9ekpv$1a6g$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>  Y In article <11bkeuujp8bj4a@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: ) >j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818 wrote:  > S >> +----"Never Underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tapes"--+  > F >Isn't it about time to upgrade to a station wagon full of 320 GB DLT  >tapes?  :-)  B 	Ah, but where in this specification do I identfy density?  When IC 	added that line to my sig, of course, I *DID* have a station wagon B 	-- but now I'm on my 5th minivan since that wagon, so it might beA 	appropriate to change THAT part of it -- but then it wouldn't be 4 	a true quote from the person I'm quoting, would it?  P +----"Never Underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tapes"--+B | J.Lance Wilkinson ("Lance")		InterNet:  Lance.Wilkinson@psu.edu < | Systems Design Specialist - Lead	AT&T:      (814) 865-18189 | Digital Library Technologies		FAX:       (814) 863-3560 2 | 3 Paterno Library				"I'd rather be dancing..." B | Penn State University		    A host is a host from coast to coast,K | University Park, PA 16802	    And no one will talk to a host that's close C | <postmaster@psulias.psu.edu>	    Unless the host that isn't close : | EMail Professional since 1978	    Is busy, hung or dead.P +---------"He's dead, Jim. I'll get his tricorder. You take his wallet."-------+9                 [apologies to DeForest Kelley, 1920-1999] 3 <A Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu">home page</a>  J <a Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu/junkdec.htm">junk mail declaration</a> --	/"\ 	\ /	ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN 	 X	AGAINST HTML MAIL  	/ \   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:41:09 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 2 Subject: Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk3 Message-ID: <+XDJ9MWLBqmC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <42b9d83d$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:  > N > Next problem was, how to do a OpenVMS VAX upgrade without a VAX bootserver ?L > Maybe it works with an Alpha satellite on a VAX bootserver (cause of PCSI)L > but not on how my clusters looked like. If this changes in the future, ok.K > But now my VAX satellites are gone. And I64 will make it different again.   F    I believe MOP booting during an upgrade is supported, so you simply    do it from a VAX satellite.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:38:42 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)- Subject: Re: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS 6 Message-ID: <00A45B25.21E5BF4D@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  ` In article <42BA1ACA.5CC8E038@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:- >Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:  >>   >> VMSers -- >>   >> VMS 7.3-2 - DS20E1 >> MSL5026SL 2 (SDLT 220 tapes, LVD SCSI version)  >>    >> Library firmware version 0423 >>  N >> Current problem:  Library can load a tape and do backups, but when it comesO >> time to remove the dismounted tape, the tape stays in and the library throws N >> a "soft fetch error"  and won't return it until I reboot the library, which- >> isn't good for a high-availability system.  >>  P >> Poking around the HP website, I see that more recent versions of the firmwareR >> have a fix for this condition that doesn't require "dismount/unload".  I'd like >> to get that working.  >>  Q >> (However, I changed my "dismount" to "dismount/unload" and last night's backup P >> worked and the library was able to take the tape back, so this is, finally, aM >> workaround I can use.  But I'd still like to be able to update the library 
 >> firmware.)  > 6 >Is this a new symptom or has it always been this way?  G Drive was used for three years on Windows server box; I inherited it.   M I was using it successfully for several months, but then the drives developed G problems and they were replaced.  At the same time I reworked my backup L procedures; I'm not sure whether I was using "dismount/unload" when I wasn't seeing the problem.    > E >Is this a new install? ...still under warranty? ...support contract?   D Not still under warranty; support is with Maintech, who were able toF (eventually) figure out how to replace the drives, but don't know much about the firmware.    -- Alan    ------------------------------   Date: 23 JUN 2005 11:20:32 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)- Subject: Re: MSL5026 firmware / HP LTT on VMS 6 Message-ID: <23JUN05.11203251@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  F Go to the www.hp.com, driver downloads, enter MSL5026 for the product,K select one of them, then under "Operating Systems" way at the bottom you'll  see:<  	Cross operating system (BIOS, Firmware, Diagnostics, etc.)   There you'll find V5.07.  H The easiest way to load it is using msutil program that came with it (onA a floppy) over the serial console. Lot's of other settings can be E changed there including the ftp location used for "Flash library from H remote file". I've entered the correct info there but never did get that to work.  H You can use ftp too but first you need to upload (put) the firmware fileH in a  directory on the library (/upload? I forget). Then you can use theF web interface to "Flash library from LOCAL file" which references that
 directory.   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison 8 --                 karcher.nomorespom@waisman.wisc.edu     ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:09:25 +0200 0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>  Subject: Re: My Multia AdventureB Message-ID: <42ba8a5e$0$15407$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote:  > G >>>As I mentioned in another post, I acquired a couple of Alpha Multias J >>>recently. One of them has an external SCSI connector, but both are only >>>the 150MHz(?) variety.  >>B >>Alpha UDBs came in 166MHz fixed CPU, 166MHz socketed, and 233MHzG >>socketed.  The fixed CPU had a fixed cache; I think the socketed ones ' >>came with socketed/upgradeable cache.  >>H >>I ran VMS on a UDB for a while using an external cabinet with one RZ28H >>disk and one CDROM; worked fine.  Its the internal scsi units you needH >>to be careful of; even with a slow disk in them they run very hot.  MyH >>solution was to purchase a slot cover with an adapter that went from aG >>50-pin IDC (standard internal narrow SCSI) inside to an HD50 external 7 >>socket; that converted the internal SCSI to external.  >>E >>Can't help at all with your VMS installation methods; I never tried H >>that.  Be aware that a UDB with a low or dead battery can appear to be4 >>broken and mafunction in various interesting ways. >  > I > I downloaded the UDB manual .PDF many years ago, but don't find it just  > now. Anyone have that? >     H Multia MultiClient Desktop - Service Information - Brian Cirulnick - PDF. http://www.obsolyte.com/dec/multia/udb-man.pdf  F Multia MultiClient Desktop - Service Information - dreamtime.org - PDF/ http://ftp.dreamtime.org/pub/multia/udb-man.pdf   C Multia MultiClient Desktop - Service Information - Eric Smith - PDF 3 http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/computers/udb-man.pdf      *Multia Links*  % AlphaLinux - UDB-Multia Documentation / http://www.alphalinux.org/docs/udb-multia.shtml    Debian GNU/Linux on a UDB 6 http://www.alphalinux.org/docs/debian-udb-install.html  : DEC Multia / UDB (Universal Desktop Box) - Brian Cirulnick# http://www.obsolyte.com/dec/multia/   0 Digital's Multia - Alpha Linux - Wayback Machinee http://web.archive.org/web/20040504191816/http://www.nukem.freeserve.co.uk/contents/computing/multia/   0 DJE Systems OpenVMS Hobbyist Multia Support Page. http://www.djesys.com/vms/hobbyist/multia.html  6 DJE Systems OpenVMS Hobbyist Multia Support Page Notes0 http://www.djesys.com/vms/hobbyist/mltianot.html  " Dreamtime.org - Multia FTP Archive# ftp://ftp.dreamtime.org/pub/multia/   ) Multia - DEC UDB Information - Eric Smith 0 http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/computers/udb.html  H Multia Tools for booting OpenVMS on Multia systems - OVMS Freeware CD v45 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware40/multia/   H Multia Tools for booting OpenVMS on Multia systems - OVMS Freeware CD v55 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware50/multia/   6 Multia - Tools for booting OpenVMS on Multia systems -" University of Missouri Kansas City" ftp://ftp.umkc.edu/PUB/VMS/MULTIA/  2 Multia Docs - CPU Micromart Mirror - dreamtime.org8 http://www.dreamtime.org/multia/cpumicromart/multia.html  " Multia Home Page - Wayback MachineO http://web.archive.org/web/20041113173100/http://www.wei.com/multia/qshome.html    Multia in the OpenVMS FAQ : http://h71000.www7.hp.com/faq/vmsfaq_021.html#index_x_1488  < Multia Users Mailing List - List of Folders - Shaun ClohertyC http://www.lx040-001.gsbme.unsw.edu.au/~shaunc/multia/multia-users/   & Multia/UDB information - dreamtime.org  http://www.dreamtime.org/multia/  / NetBSD/alpha: Multia Frequently Asked Questions 0 http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/alpha/multiafaq.html  B StarshipCorp - Multia Cases and Case Accessories - Wayback Machinei http://web.archive.org/web/20040502164918/www.starshipcorp.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=6   8 StarshipCorp - Multia SCSI Accessories - Wayback Machinei http://web.archive.org/web/20040502165936/www.starshipcorp.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=7   9 StarshipCorp - Other Multia Accessories - Wayback Machine i http://web.archive.org/web/20040502170804/www.starshipcorp.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=8    The Multia info page http://membres.lycos.fr/multia/   ' The Multia info page : Mini-IDE install , http://membres.lycos.fr/multia/miniide.html?  ! Universal Desktop Box - elric.com  http://www.elric.com/UDB/   / Universal Desktop Box - mirror at dreamtime.org & http://www.dreamtime.org/multia/annex/  ? Universal Desktop Box - Network Troubleshooting - dreamtime.org 2 http://www.dreamtime.org/multia/annex/udb-net.html  / Universal Desktop Box - Technical Specification % http://www.elric.com/UDB/udbspec.html   ( Universal Desktop Box - The Inside Story& http://www.elric.com/UDB/udbinsid.html  B Universal Desktop Box - The Inside Story - mirror at dreamtime.org3 http://www.dreamtime.org/multia/annex/udbinsid.html   7 Universal Desktop Box - Troubleshooting - dreamtime.org 3 http://www.dreamtime.org/multia/annex/udbtroub.html      Cheers!    K.C.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 07:24:31 -0700' From: "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> & Subject: Re: OpenVMS and XML questionsC Message-ID: <1119536671.417773.257230@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Richard Brodie wrote: 4 > "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> wrote in message? > news:1119469826.665173.162360@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...  > G > > They call it "web server" and "HTTP server".   The examples show it  > > supports WML and VXML also.  > G > Ah, looks like a fairly straightforward data-centric XML. Good advice I > from your vendor, for once, I think. As someone already posted, libxml2 K > is likely a good fit, although I'd probably prototype with whatever tools  > you feel happiest with first.   F Do I need to get libcurl to read from a URL?  I know how to read a URLE using Java, but I don't know how to do it with FORTRAN or C.  I don't E know a way to prototype that except via Java and I don't much want to 
 add a Java element to this system.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:34:10 -0500 6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>& Subject: Re: OpenVMS and XML questionsD Message-ID: <craigberry-18365D.10341023062005@news.isp.giganews.com>  C In article <1119536671.417773.257230@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, )  "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> wrote:    > Richard Brodie wrote: 6 > > "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> wrote in messageA > > news:1119469826.665173.162360@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...  > > I > > > They call it "web server" and "HTTP server".   The examples show it ! > > > supports WML and VXML also.  > > I > > Ah, looks like a fairly straightforward data-centric XML. Good advice K > > from your vendor, for once, I think. As someone already posted, libxml2 M > > is likely a good fit, although I'd probably prototype with whatever tools ! > > you feel happiest with first.  > H > Do I need to get libcurl to read from a URL?  I know how to read a URLG > using Java, but I don't know how to do it with FORTRAN or C.  I don't G > know a way to prototype that except via Java and I don't much want to  > add a Java > element to this system.   H libxml2 includes an interface called nanoHTTP for fetching stuff from a B web server.  There are lots of examples, documentation, and so on  starting from:     http://xmlsoft.org/index.html    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 11:59:58 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console3 Message-ID: <r1jjNe5$ZVw1@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <ZTAue.7551$267.446@news.cpqcorp.net>, Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: > J >   I don't doubt there are VAX users that would want newer features, but G > the majority of folks I've chatted with that are running VAX systems   > want consistency more.  @    I sure was pleased when I loaded 7.3 on my VAX and could then    mount and see ODS-5 disks.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 09:03:25 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) A Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?) 3 Message-ID: <Rw2ecxqG4WoQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <X_lue.7523$KG6.3400@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: > H >   Moving to IA-32 is nuts, BTW.  OpenVMS is a 64-bit operating system,J >   meaning you would be looking at EM64T or AMD64.  OpenVMS I64 presentlyH >   runs on Intel Itanium systems, and Itanium systems are available andG >   supported.  No plans for IA-32, EM64T nor AMD64, either, beyond the  >   available VAX emulation.  C    We all know and love a 32 bit OS originally seen as VAX-11/VMS.  E    While the kernel used by Alpha and IA64 takes advantage of 64 bit, J    most of the APIs we use every day are still 32 bit or size independant.B    (I've never once had to use a 64 bit compiler option or call an&     x$x_x64 version of a VMS routine).  G    Your statement that "OpenVMS is a 64-bit" OS really surprizes me and D    I think will go a long way to confirm suspicions that HP plans noH    real future features for VAX, already made clear by the promise, then"    delay, now lack of 8.2 for VAX.  F    In the meantime people still think of their 64 bit Pentiums and AMDH    processors as implementing 32 bit x86.  Certainly VMS would appear toH    be well positioned to take advantage of a processor that looks 32 bit(    in some ways and is 64 bit in others.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:15:55 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>A Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 EFI Console (was: Re: Revival of Alpha?) 2 Message-ID: <vuzue.7545$j27.6856@news.cpqcorp.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:42BA1908.27674701@teksavvy.com...   > I > Does Intel plan to spread EFI to the 64 bit 8086 ?  I have been lead to B > believe that Intel had goals on standardising on EFI for all its$ > architectures. Any truth to this ? >   F Yes.  Intel and Microsoft are both pushing to rid themselves of "BIOS" legacyF as it continues to be a ugly, and limiting crock from the original PC.  F But there are 3rd party BIOS companies that continue to push their own
 envelopes.   So the battle is far from won.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:41:27 GMT + From: Robert Boers <r_boers@softresint.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?* Message-ID: <42ba5994$1@news.deckpoint.ch>   Dave Froble wrote: > Robert Boers wrote:  >  >> Dave Froble wrote: 	 >> [snip]  >>J >>> As for the possibility of emulation, in my opinion, it will be a very H >>> long time before there is anything fast enough to emulate Alpha and " >>> be faster than today's Alphas. >>> H >> I don't think that is true anymore with the very fast dual/multicore  >> AMD64/EMT64 architecture. >>	 >> Robert  >  > I > Does emulation of a CPU benefit from a multi-CPU environment?  I don't  G > know much/anything about it, but I'd think that emulation would be a  & > single threaded type of application. > B Absolutely, in the same way a hardware CPU benefits from multiple I instruction pipelines. We would never get 90 VUPs (on a 2.6 GHz Opteron)   out of a single thread.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:35:27 +1000 6 From: "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?X Message-ID: <8BAD914A0B8CA84C9E94187103A1AB9E05BE4B@EX-TG2-PR.corporate.transgrid.local>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C577D6.E3805BF7 . Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     . From: Dave Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com] >Sent: Thu 6/23/2005 3:11 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?  >=20 >DavidT wrote: >> whoa there everyone >>=20  >> Just went to HP's website >>=20 L >> NEW!!! 1.3Ghz EV7 cpu ... so someone somewhere is continuing work on Alp= haJ >> chips (unless they are sitting on shelves waiting for the right time to >> market them) L >> Who is doing it... what would HP want do you think for the rights to bui= ld( >> Alpha and continue speed improvements! >> 1.3Ghz, 64 bit  ain't half bad  > F >There is the theory that they wouldn't allow anyone else to market=20J >Alphas, seeing as they would lose those customers.  The key point is how=B  >many would move to itanic, and how many will be lost regardless?  L And to paraphrase "Gone with the Wind", -- quite frankly they don't give a =L damn.  They seem to be in the business of losing customers.  In that busine=6 ss, they must be better than any of their competitors.   Regards, Paddy    G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged @ and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20D addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of=20C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise D the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=207 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   C If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 C immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 ? individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************     ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C577D6.E3805BF7 - Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">  <HTML> <HEAD>L <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> K <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7226.0"> $ <TITLE>Re: Revival of Alpha?</TITLE> </HEAD>  <BODY>) <!-- Converted from text/plain format -->  <BR>  L <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Dave Froble [<A HREF=3D"mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com"=$ >mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com</A>]<BR># &gt;Sent: Thu 6/23/2005 3:11 PM<BR> ! &gt;To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com<BR> & &gt;Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?<BR> &gt;<BR> &gt;DavidT wrote:<BR>   &gt;&gt; whoa there everyone<BR> &gt;&gt;<BR>& &gt;&gt; Just went to HP's website<BR> &gt;&gt;<BR>L &gt;&gt; NEW!!! 1.3Ghz EV7 cpu ... so someone somewhere is continuing work = on Alpha<BR>L &gt;&gt; chips (unless they are sitting on shelves waiting for the right ti=	 me to<BR>  &gt;&gt; market them)<BR> L &gt;&gt; Who is doing it... what would HP want do you think for the rights = to build<BR>2 &gt;&gt; Alpha and continue speed improvements<BR>0 &gt;&gt; 1.3Ghz, 64 bit&nbsp; ain't half bad<BR> &gt;<BR>J &gt;There is the theory that they wouldn't allow anyone else to market<BR>L &gt;Alphas, seeing as they would lose those customers.&nbsp; The key point =
 is how<BR>H &gt;many would move to itanic, and how many will be lost regardless?<BR> <BR>L And to paraphrase &quot;Gone with the Wind&quot;, -- quite frankly they don=L 't give a damn.&nbsp; They seem to be in the business of losing customers.&=L nbsp; In that business, they must be better than any of their competitors.<= BR>  <BR> Regards, Paddy<BR> </FONT>  </P>   <FONT SIZE=3D3><BR>  <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  <BR>G "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged<BR> B and confidential information intended only for the use of the <BR>F addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of <BR>G this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise<BR> F the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, <BR>; distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.<BR>  <BR>E If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid <BR> E immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the <BR> A individual sender except where the sender expressly and with <BR> G authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses<BR> B virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses<BR>  contained in any attachment.<BR> <BR>@ Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now<BR>( firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"<BR> <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  </FONT>  </BODY>  </HTML> ) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C577D6.E3805BF7--    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:14:28 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?) Message-ID: <d9e224$663$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   Z In article <11bjaa6l9fddbb4@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:. >David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:A >As for the future, as others have said, there is no R&D on next  I >generation CPUs.  Many VMS users could exist on the current performance  A >of EV6 and EV7, so Alpha would not be hurt by being bypassed in  I >performance as much as more 'commodity' type of CPUs.  VMS is the lever  H >that would sell Alphas.  Note that there are people still running VAXs. > F Unfortunately the time scales involved in porting and testing on a newD architecture means that such a port really needs to be starting now.K Yes current Alpha customers can continue for a few years more with existing M systems. However as other architectures increase in performance against Alpha N over the next few years Application developers will take advantage of and then7 come to expect that performance in their new versions.  M Similarly the hard timescale for the last Alpha sale from HP and when support L will end will inevitably also lead to vendors to consider whether to support their next version to Alpha.  I I suspect many application developers will have similar feelings to those P expressed in this thread about Itanic. Hence support for applications on Itanic  may also disappear. L (note. Even for those who do continue to produce their application on ItanicL they may not produce it on Alpha even if the codebase is the same because of3 the efforts involved in testing on both platforms).     
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University            J >Nothing is forever, and eventually there would need to be something new, G >either a re-started Alpha effort, x86-64, or something else, possibly  D >even an itanic that survives and prospers.  Customers would prefer C >Alpha, but over sufficient time, with the continued production of  I >current generation Alphas, customers could move to any new architecture  " >at a speed of their own choosing. > G >As for the possibility of emulation, in my opinion, it will be a very  H >long time before there is anything fast enough to emulate Alpha and be  >faster than today's Alphas. >  >-- 5 >David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450 5 >Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596 ? >DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com  >170 Grimplin Road >Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jun 2005 11:41:40 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?+ Message-ID: <3hvlfkFj4ui3U1@individual.net>   0 In article <11bkgj4j7si4k09@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Dr. Dweeb wrote: >  >> For every product  M >> that does not make it to IA64, some number of customers will be forced to  L >> abandon VMS, no matter whether they believe IA64 is the best thing since  >> gravity ! > D > That valid observation shows just how stupid it is to drop Alpha, ! > regardless of what itanic does.  > I > HP just doesn't seem to get the concept that when you chase a customer  : > away, they rarely will move to another of your products. > G > I'm wondering just how much of this market they are willing to lose?   > Possibly all of it.  > K > If IBM wanted a niche market, they could somehow get ownership or use of  H > whatever Samsung has, continue to produce Alpha CPUs, develop systems 9 > using them, and serve the customers HP is chasing away.  >   @ With one major problem.  About something else I said here it was@ pointed out that many people need vendor support.  Is VMS likely? to be "suppported" on those magic IBM boxes? (Mind you, I would @ love to see it, I just think it unlikely unless IBM also came to	 own VMS.)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:10:19 -0400 + From: Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?A Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506230752580.17044@frank.harvard.edu>   * On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Karsten Nyblad wrote: > Chip Coldwell wrote:C >> In fact, many of the Alpha platforms that don't support VMS are  K >> disqualified because they use AlphaBIOS (designed for Windows NT/Alpha)   >> instead of the SRM console. > I > As far as I remember, in the old days of the Windows NT for Alpha, the  @ > machines capable of running OpenVMS could also run Windows NT.  F Right, but before going from VMS to WNT you had to switch from SRM to J AlphaBIOS.  There were machines that could have both in the firmware, but A WNT would never boot one a machine without ARC or AlphaBIOS; see:   . http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_1097.html  D >> Many people have erroneously cited the lack of four CPU privilegeH >> levels on x86 as a reason why a VMS port is impossible.  In fact, theD >> x86 architecture has supported four CPU privilege levels for some$ >> time; at least since the Pentium. > M > You are right that x86 has four levels of privilege.  (Actually the newest  L > have a fifth, but that is intended for virtualisation, i.e., running more G > than one OS on the same CPU at the same time.)  However, as far as I  K > understand, x86-64 has only two levels of privilege.  And so has Itanium.   ? No.  Xeons supporting EMT64 (x86-64), being an extension of x86 H Xeons, have the same privilege levels.  Intel didn't drop any privilege D levels when they added the 64-bit extensions to the instruction set.  I Itanium has four privilege levels also.  See section 3.1 on page 2-13 of  G the Itanium Architecture Software Developer's Manual, Volume 2: System  K Architecture, (ftp://download.intel.com/design/Itanium/manuals/245318.pdf)   which reads:      3.1 Privilege Levels   G    Four privilege levels, numbered from 0 to 3, are provided to control K    access to system instructions, system registers and system memory areas. K    Level 0 is the most privileged and level 3 the least privileged .... The J    processor maintains a Current Privilege Level (CPL) in the cpl field of'    the Processor Status Register (PSR).   F That quote could almost have been lifted out of a VAX/11 Architecture  Reference Manual.    Chip   --   Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell Turn on, log in, tune out    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:17:00 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <zT+CJKfPLYSp@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <42BA195A.5C043447@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:1 > "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" wrote:  >>  ! >> I have just a sinple question.  >>  N >> What would it take for HP/Compaq and Intel to rekindle the Alpha processor. > C > The Return of Jesus, The Father's Voice from the sky, and perhaps E > several major cataclysms to get the world's attention (can you say,  > "9-11"? ..."tsunami"?) >   H    All of which may lead to good arguments for particular software: VMS,&    nut not for a particular processor.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:18:47 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <zIteoZ4ANfSe@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <1119501222.136114.50800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: >  > ! > david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:  >> >M >> >For some unbelievable reason Apple are going to use them. Maybe that will " >> >give the IA64 a bit of a push. >> > >>8 >> My understanding was Apple are going x86 not Itanium.> >> Have you got a reference saying they are going to Itanium ? >>H > They're not using Itanium.  That's just left over speculation based onD > the lack of specific information on the day things were announced.  F    While Apple is running Pentiums now, I think whether they will alsoE    do IA64 is simly of matter of whether IA64 catches on.  Apple will     not lead the latter.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:19:36 +0000 (UTC) % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?6 Message-ID: <slrndbldnf.sa6.usenet@gaia.roc2.gblx.net>  t In article <Pine.OSX.4.62.0506221120020.233@net-56658.fas.harvard.edu>, Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam> wrote: > H > I think the SRM console has to be one of the biggest technical hurdles= > to an x86 port of VMS.  x86 platforms generally use a BIOS.    Not insurmountable, however.  G I realize that folks here are going to not like the mention of Sun, but A they had the same problem in adding x86 platform support to their G product line. (So I am *NOT* doing a 'Sun is better' thing, but rather, H illustrating how someone else approached the same problem with success.)  ? Sun traditionally ran on SPARC with OpenBoot (aka OpenFirmware) , providing the equivalent of 'BIOS services'.  G But then they decided to enter the PC market, so the engineers then had H to look into the technical side of 'OS bringup' on x86 hardware with the; goal of maintaining the same UI experience and a minimum of " architectural-specific divergence.  H They did that by creating an boot loader that called a small applicationF which then did similar OS bring-up functions (e.g. device enumeration,G early initialization stuff, etc.) while offering the user an ability to D break into a CLI 'console' prior to loading a kernel, similar to the user experience on SPARC.   F From there, it then booted the kernel, just like on SPARC, even thoughF some stuff were "missing" or different. Interesting approach; seems to have worked.  G So... lack of traditional console and low-level services in same manner C is not insurmountable and can be worked around in interesting ways.   A As an unrelated comment: I'm not yet convinced of IA64's business H viabibility. However, its EFI interface (a small OS of its own and quiteF extensible), is pretty nice. Too bad the x86 (non-IA64) PCs don't have* anything as nice as EFI, SRM, OBP/OF, etc.   -Dan   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:22:28 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <yJDSAHVq3r3S@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <42ba4bc2$0$67255$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:   ; >  Moving to x86-32 is not really an option since VMS is a   > server operating systems  =    Tell that to all the single user satellite VAXstations and '    DECstations I've had in my clusters.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:09:12 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?2 Message-ID: <Yvyue.7544$b37.4670@news.cpqcorp.net>   Chip Coldwell wrote: > F > Even bigger than the console is a MACRO32 compiler that targets x86.H > I suppose if they can write one for Alpha and another one for Itanium,F > then they can write one for x86.  But it's a big effort nonetheless.  I Don't forgot a BLISS compiler and a C compiler.  I would guess that most  ? current x86/AMD64/EM64T C compilers don't accept many of the C  D extensions that we use in the kernel (register linkage pragmas, for I instance).  And they probably won't generate our flavor of ELF-64 object   files.   --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:10:15 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <cEDSG1eP+d9E@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <11bijohmcito28a@corp.supernews.com>, "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <david@hpaq.net> writes:  > I have just a sinple question. > M > What would it take for HP/Compaq and Intel to rekindle the Alpha processor. 5 > Does anyone think that it would now be worth doing?   E    More money than it would take to port from IA64 to Pentium.  Which $    makes a heck of a lot more sense.  B    Almost all the hard issues of doing a port to Pentium had to be-    addressed in order to do the port to IA64.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:13:31 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <F6aR97Y1RQWn@eisner.encompasserve.org>   u In article <Pine.OSX.4.62.0506221120020.233@net-56658.fas.harvard.edu>, Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam> writes:   C > Many people have erroneously cited the lack of four CPU privilege G > levels on x86 as a reason why a VMS port is impossible.  In fact, the C > x86 architecture has supported four CPU privilege levels for some # > time; at least since the Pentium.   E    Since the 386.  There were some issues with VMS using all possible G    combinations of outer-mode-read with inner-mode-write, some of which J    Intel doesn't provide on the '86, but they were already dealt with for -    the IA64 which didn't provide them either.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:20:22 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <FX16zCzj0UB4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <11bkg677c0hd417@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > I > Does emulation of a CPU benefit from a multi-CPU environment?  I don't  G > know much/anything about it, but I'd think that emulation would be a  & > single threaded type of application.  G    The earliest Alphas which shipped ran 2 way parallel pipelines.  I'd F    want to emulate that using two threads, if I was doing an emulator.D    On a good implementation those two threads might run on different    CPUs.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:25:36 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <e$X7wtePfGWV@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3hvlfkFj4ui3U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > B > With one major problem.  About something else I said here it wasB > pointed out that many people need vendor support.  Is VMS likelyA > to be "suppported" on those magic IBM boxes? (Mind you, I would B > love to see it, I just think it unlikely unless IBM also came to > own VMS.)   C    You can get VMS support from HP on a PC running Charon-VAX, even H    though Charon-VAX is not an HP product and OpenVMS VAX is not getting    much attention.  J    I think HP is much more aware that they are a software vendor than DEC B    or Compaq was.  I just wish they'd get out of the money loosing&    hardware-vendor-for-Microsoft game.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:24:31 +0000 (UTC) % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?6 Message-ID: <slrndble0m.sa6.usenet@gaia.roc2.gblx.net>  j In article <42ba4bc2$0$67255$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> wrote: > 6 > You are right that x86 has four levels of privilege.  G I should also point out that Alpha had only two privilege levels in the F CPU, if my recollection is correct. It handled the other two privilege% levels through trapped PALcode calls.   ? Ah, yes, here is a reference from a well-known person here. :-)   E http://h20276.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/2005/03/30/1112218119000.html   ? So, it is not necessarily a can't-do item if a CPU has only two = privilege levels, if it has some way of emulating the others.    -Dan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:54:05 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11blq4q4nc94i68@corp.supernews.com>   david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote: \ > In article <11bjaa6l9fddbb4@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > / >>David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote: B >>As for the future, as others have said, there is no R&D on next J >>generation CPUs.  Many VMS users could exist on the current performance B >>of EV6 and EV7, so Alpha would not be hurt by being bypassed in J >>performance as much as more 'commodity' type of CPUs.  VMS is the lever I >>that would sell Alphas.  Note that there are people still running VAXs.  >> > H > Unfortunately the time scales involved in porting and testing on a newF > architecture means that such a port really needs to be starting now.M > Yes current Alpha customers can continue for a few years more with existing O > systems. However as other architectures increase in performance against Alpha P > over the next few years Application developers will take advantage of and then9 > come to expect that performance in their new versions.  O > Similarly the hard timescale for the last Alpha sale from HP and when support N > will end will inevitably also lead to vendors to consider whether to support > their next version to Alpha.  K > I suspect many application developers will have similar feelings to those R > expressed in this thread about Itanic. Hence support for applications on Itanic  > may also disappear. N > (note. Even for those who do continue to produce their application on ItanicN > they may not produce it on Alpha even if the codebase is the same because of5 > the efforts involved in testing on both platforms).   I Once again, a post that considers only running third party applications.  F   Maybe the vast majority do such.  I don't know.  However, there are D users of VMS that don't fit in this particular catagory.  For those F customers, there is considerable value in their applications, and for @ many the goal is to be able to continue using their solution(s).   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:01:00 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11blqhsocba6o02@corp.supernews.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:2 > In article <11bkgj4j7si4k09@corp.supernews.com>,, > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  >>Dr. Dweeb wrote: >> >> >>>For every product  M >>>that does not make it to IA64, some number of customers will be forced to  L >>>abandon VMS, no matter whether they believe IA64 is the best thing since  >>>gravity ! >>D >>That valid observation shows just how stupid it is to drop Alpha, ! >>regardless of what itanic does.  >>I >>HP just doesn't seem to get the concept that when you chase a customer  : >>away, they rarely will move to another of your products. >>G >>I'm wondering just how much of this market they are willing to lose?   >>Possibly all of it.  >>K >>If IBM wanted a niche market, they could somehow get ownership or use of  H >>whatever Samsung has, continue to produce Alpha CPUs, develop systems 9 >>using them, and serve the customers HP is chasing away.  >> >  > B > With one major problem.  About something else I said here it wasB > pointed out that many people need vendor support.  Is VMS likelyA > to be "suppported" on those magic IBM boxes? (Mind you, I would B > love to see it, I just think it unlikely unless IBM also came to > own VMS.)  >  > bill >   : Very possible a non-issue.  VMS is supported on specified E configurations, devices, and such.  If a system were built using the  A supported devices, then it's no different than a system built by  F DEC/Compaq/HP.  The difference is that someone else would be building ) systems while HP is not building systems.   D The problems would increase over time, as the supported devices get H older.  One possible solution would be the system builder writing their C own drivers for newer devices.  This would not be anything new.  I  H remember the earliest days, when third party devices came with drivers. .   Usually disk storage, controllers, and such.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:23:29 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: Revival of Alpha?R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB650D75@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----3 > From: Dave Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com]=20  > Sent: June 23, 2005 12:54 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com   > Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha? >=20! > david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote: < > > In article <11bjaa6l9fddbb4@corp.supernews.com>, Dave=20& > Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > >=201 > >>David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote: F > >>As for the future, as others have said, there is no R&D on next=20B > >>generation CPUs.  Many VMS users could exist on the current=20 > performance=20F > >>of EV6 and EV7, so Alpha would not be hurt by being bypassed in=20A > >>performance as much as more 'commodity' type of CPUs.  VMS=20  > is the lever=20 @ > >>that would sell Alphas.  Note that there are people still=20 > running VAXs.  > >> > >=20< > > Unfortunately the time scales involved in porting and=20 > testing on a newH > > architecture means that such a port really needs to be starting now.? > > Yes current Alpha customers can continue for a few years=20  > more with existing: > > systems. However as other architectures increase in=20 > performance against Alpha ? > > over the next few years Application developers will take=20  > advantage of and then = > > come to expect that performance in their new versions.=20 @ > > Similarly the hard timescale for the last Alpha sale from=20 > HP and when support @ > > will end will inevitably also lead to vendors to consider=20 > whether to support# > > their next version to Alpha.=20 > > > I suspect many application developers will have similar=20 > feelings to those ? > > expressed in this thread about Itanic. Hence support for=20  > applications on Itanic=20  > > may also disappear. = > > (note. Even for those who do continue to produce their=20  > application on Itanic ? > > they may not produce it on Alpha even if the codebase is=20  > the same because of 7 > > the efforts involved in testing on both platforms).  >=20? > Once again, a post that considers only running third party=20  > applications.=20J >   Maybe the vast majority do such.  I don't know.  However, there are=20H > users of VMS that don't fit in this particular catagory.  For those=20J > customers, there is considerable value in their applications, and for=20B > many the goal is to be able to continue using their solution(s). >=20    E Yeah, the "build vs. buy" view is one of those never ending religious A discussions that is very similar to the "outsource vs. in-source" F discussions i.e. seldom is implementing only one approach what is bestE for your business. The best answer is typically somewhere in between.   G While "buy" gets you off the shelf benefits, the challenge is that they G almost always need to be customized to fit the specific requirements of F the business. So, once you start down the customization road, you thenF get into the "when do I stop customizing" mode and then you also startI worrying about whether future upgrades will break your customizations.=20   G The "buy" approach typically also does not provide the flexibility that H some companies need to meet their rapidly changing business requirements4 and in some cases, external compliancy requirements. =20 ? It is interesting to note that a number of large companies with G outsourced environments have recently announced they are taking control  of their IT back in-house.  , Not sure if this is a trend or just a spike.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 02:04:35 -0700$ From: "alex" <info@it-technology.nl> Subject: SAN & DFUB Message-ID: <1119517475.398787.21820@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  D Is it possible to use DFU in combination with SAN, there seems to be3 some problems according to atomic operations. Thanx    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:19:58 -0500 + From: Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> 2 Subject: System Monitor Tool & Strong PW generator5 Message-ID: <d9ecu0$6gb$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>   , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------0807030809070009050102039 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    Group,  E I need a complete OpenVMS system monitor tool, that will monitor CPU  $ spikes, usage and all else that will= create log files and reports for security audit reviews. Any   recommendations?  A Also, I need a strong password generator that will assign strong  + passwords to users as they are added to the D systems or when they have their passwords changed. OpenVMS does not  appear to have this ability. Any recommendations?   Thanks,  Chuck Aaron  CERIS Purdue Univ.    & --------------080703080907000905010203) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   ? <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">  <html> <head>I   <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">    <title></title>  </head> ' <body bgcolor="#339999" text="#ffffff"> 
 Group,<br> <br>D I need a complete OpenVMS system monitor tool, that will monitor CPU) spikes, usage and all else that will <br> < create log files and reports for security audit reviews. Any recommendations?<br> <br>@ Also, I need a strong password generator that will assign strong0 passwords to users as they are added to the <br>C systems or when they have their passwords changed. OpenVMS does not   appear to have this ability.<br> Any recommendations?<br> <br> Thanks,<br>  Chuck Aaron<br>  CERIS Purdue Univ.<br> <br> </body>  </html>   ( --------------080703080907000905010203--   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 11:53:56 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 6 Subject: Re: System Monitor Tool & Strong PW generator3 Message-ID: <nOec7iHB8Sif@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <d9ecu0$6gb$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>, Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> writes: . > This is a multi-part message in MIME format.( > --------------080703080907000905010203; > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed ! > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  >  > Group, > G > I need a complete OpenVMS system monitor tool, that will monitor CPU  & > spikes, usage and all else that will? > create log files and reports for security audit reviews. Any   > recommendations?  C    A combination of MONITOR, accounting, and security auditing, all     built into VMS.  C > Also, I need a strong password generator that will assign strong  - > passwords to users as they are added to the F > systems or when they have their passwords changed. OpenVMS does not  > appear to have this ability. > Any recommendations?  E    Use password generation and/or LGI callbacks.  The former is built 2    into VMS, the latter you get to write yourself.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 10:23:33 -0700; From: "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" <tomarsin2015@comcast.net> , Subject: VAX software available for downloadB Message-ID: <1119547413.927899.39870@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   Hello > The following VAX software is available for download using ftp
 BASIC V3.9 C V6.4 C++ V5.6 COBOL V5.7A  FMS V2.4 UCX V4.2 AND V5.3  DW-MOTIF V1.2-6  FORTRAN V6.6 PASCAL V5.8 F These are from the December 2004/Q4 CDL. I will be adding more as timeF permits. Right now the software can only be access by ftp. The address@ is 68.35.167.136 and the username is vaxsoftware. No password isG needed. If there is a layered product you need then let me know. I have A cds going back to 92 so if its a HP VAX layered product more then  likely I have it.  phillip    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 08:31:27 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe 3 Message-ID: <+hzu1OejihBc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   N In article <opsss2z5wuzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:. > On 22 Jun 2005 13:20:44 -0500, Bob Koehler  2 > <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote: > @ >>   Probably model dependent.  On the 11/780 the floating pointE >>    accelerator (a slightly different concept than an FP processor) I >>    was used for all arithmetic calcuations, including addressing, that J >>    it could possibly* be used for, except the INDEX instruction.  Which@ >>    is why the compiler writers never used the powerfull INDEX >>    instruction. >  > PL/I uses it.   J   Interesting.  I don't recall a PL/I compiler in the days when the VAX-11@   series was the VAX model line.  Certainly by MicroVAX days the'   compilers were tuned to later models.   B   I still recall that a DO loop copying individual characters of a=   CHARACTER string was faster than an assignment on our MV II A   because the latter generated a MOVC3 which was in the emulated  C   instruction subset, the compiler being tuned to processors which      implemented MOVCx in hardware.        ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:14:23 +0000 (UTC) 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> ) Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe ? Message-ID: <d9eg3u$8k7$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>    Hi,   L >   Interesting.  I don't recall a PL/I compiler in the days when the VAX-11" >   series was the VAX model line.  J Having just dug up a copy of my C.V. for Didier, I can testify to the factL that in 1983 I was studying at Perth Tech. using the PL/I compiler (a secondF year unit) on VAX/VMS. I think it was an 11/750 but they soon moved to 11/780 then 11/785.   L Ahhh, but life was simple then. . .no pressure; only fun. . .James St wasn'tI closed off. . .beer and Plaka kebabs were cheap. . .and we all got Friday J afternoons off to go to the beach. . . Now where did I leave that womb :-)  G I actually liked PL/I, but then I *LOVED* RSTS/E Basic-plus-2 *AND* VAX L BASIC. But hey, someone told me that COBOL would be my bread and butter, andG they weren't far wrong. (RSTS/E Assembler has also seen me through some  sticky situations as well!)    Regards Richard Maher   H "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:+hzu1OejihBc@eisner.encompasserve.org... H > In article <opsss2z5wuzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: . > > On 22 Jun 2005 13:20:44 -0500, Bob Koehler4 > > <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote: > > B > >>   Probably model dependent.  On the 11/780 the floating pointG > >>    accelerator (a slightly different concept than an FP processor) K > >>    was used for all arithmetic calcuations, including addressing, that L > >>    it could possibly* be used for, except the INDEX instruction.  WhichB > >>    is why the compiler writers never used the powerfull INDEX > >>    instruction. > >  > > PL/I uses it.  > L >   Interesting.  I don't recall a PL/I compiler in the days when the VAX-11B >   series was the VAX model line.  Certainly by MicroVAX days the) >   compilers were tuned to later models.  > D >   I still recall that a DO loop copying individual characters of a? >   CHARACTER string was faster than an assignment on our MV II B >   because the latter generated a MOVC3 which was in the emulatedD >   instruction subset, the compiler being tuned to processors which" >   implemented MOVCx in hardware. >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:32:23 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>) Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe 2 Message-ID: <bCAue.7549$T77.1079@news.cpqcorp.net>   Bob Koehler wrote:P > In article <opsss2z5wuzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: > . >>On 22 Jun 2005 13:20:44 -0500, Bob Koehler  2 >><koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote: >> >>@ >>>  Probably model dependent.  On the 11/780 the floating pointE >>>   accelerator (a slightly different concept than an FP processor) I >>>   was used for all arithmetic calcuations, including addressing, that J >>>   it could possibly* be used for, except the INDEX instruction.  Which@ >>>   is why the compiler writers never used the powerfull INDEX >>>   instruction. >> >>PL/I uses it.  >  > L >   Interesting.  I don't recall a PL/I compiler in the days when the VAX-11B >   series was the VAX model line.  Certainly by MicroVAX days the) >   compilers were tuned to later models.  > D >   I still recall that a DO loop copying individual characters of a? >   CHARACTER string was faster than an assignment on our MV II C >   because the latter generated a MOVC3 which was in the emulated  E >   instruction subset, the compiler being tuned to processors which  " >   implemented MOVCx in hardware. >       J I don't think MOVCs were ever emulated.  CMPCs, MOVTUC, MATCHC, etc. were.  I As for the INDEX instrunction, the VAX Pascal compiler uses it a TON.  I  F never heard a recommendation to avoid the INDEX instruction even on a K 780.  There were others we did avoid however (SOBxxx, AOBxxx come to mind).    --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 08:31:29 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ) Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe ( Message-ID: <opsstxerlkzgicya@hyrrokkin>  , On 23 Jun 2005 08:31:27 -0500, Bob Koehler  0 <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:  K >  Interesting.  I don't recall a PL/I compiler in the days when the VAX-11 B >   series was the VAX model line.  Certainly by MicroVAX days the) >   compilers were tuned to later models.   E Actually the PL/I port was started in February 1978.   This was all    descibed in K "Engineering a Compiler" by Anklam, Cutrler, et.al. Digital Press, 1982.     It was this K port that created VCG, which demonstarted the concept of a common backend    for I multiple compiler front-ends.  Digital, however, never exploited to the    extentI the Prime and others did, until the development of GEM, which from this    perspective $ is the historical antecedent to VCG.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 12:03:44 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe 3 Message-ID: <Eum3M4sBrhry@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <bCAue.7549$T77.1079@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:  > M > I don't think MOVCs were ever emulated.  CMPCs, MOVTUC, MATCHC, etc. were.	   E    When I saw the performance issue, I looked it up.  I don't have my B    subsetting reference handy but I'm pretty sure MOVCx was in theE    same subset as CMPC, MOVTx, ...  And the rule was no splitting up	     a defined subset.  K > As for the INDEX instrunction, the VAX Pascal compiler uses it a TON.  I  H > never heard a recommendation to avoid the INDEX instruction even on a M > 780.  There were others we did avoid however (SOBxxx, AOBxxx come to mind).   D    I don't think there was a recommendation, just that the compilersF    available through VMS 2.x (Fortran and COBOL, maybe PASCAL, I'm not>    sure) didn't use it because the 11/780 ran faster that way.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 11:01:30 +0100K From: pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.68.40) ' Subject: Re: VMS boot on AlphaPC 264DP? ! Message-ID: <gXcEgQIuAAtt@sinead>   , In article <3huojpFiqg5fU1@individual.net>, 1 Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> writes:  > Dave Froble wrote: >>  J >> EV5 and EV6 are two seperate and different CPUs.  You cannot use clock I >> speed to compare them.  Cannot remember details, but seem to remember  K >> some benchmarks showing EV6 with a slower clock speed outperforming EV5   >> significantly.  > FWIW:  > C > When I got my DS10L (466MHz EV6), I did some comparisons with my  = > AS255/233 (233MHZ EV45).  It averaged about 5 times faster.  > G > So, adjusting for the clock rate, it may be that an EV6 is 2.5 times  / > faster than a EV45 at equivalent clock rates.   L Yes, with EV6 Alpha has quitted infancy. My home DS10 466 Mhz is constanty 4I to 5 times faster than my 255/233. But now I find it a bit slow .... What L upgrade ? Only DS15 on the horizon (no monoprocessor EV7 available) but onlyK twice faster theorically. But too much expensive (more than 12 Keuros fully I configured !!) Itaniums are probably not much faster (and no workstation  N neither sound cards supported). I may end with and AMD64 under Debian Sarge...   Patrick  --O =============================================================================== N pmoreau@ath.cena.fr              ______      ___   _          (Patrick MOREAU)4 DSNA/DTI/SDER (ex CENA)         / /   /     / /|  /|J Athis-Mons France              / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/              http://membres.lycos.fr/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:01:44 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) ' Subject: Re: VMS boot on AlphaPC 264DP? L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2306050601450001@user-105n80u.dialup.mindspring.com>  F In article <gXcEgQIuAAtt@sinead>, pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU,' CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.68.40) wrote:     M >Yes, with EV6 Alpha has quitted infancy. My home DS10 466 Mhz is constanty 4 J >to 5 times faster than my 255/233. But now I find it a bit slow .... WhatM >upgrade ? Only DS15 on the horizon (no monoprocessor EV7 available) but only L >twice faster theorically. But too much expensive (more than 12 Keuros fullyJ >configured !!) Itaniums are probably not much faster (and no workstation   >neither sound cards supported).  J Workstations are supported by VMS on Itanium exactly as on Alpha, with oneG exception -- you won't find the word "workstation" in a product name on H Itanium.    In both cases, you add a graphics card (or more than one) toJ the server and you have a workstation.  You don't actually think there's aH difference between an AlphaStation DS15 and an AlphaServer DS15, do you?  G You'd likely find the current low-end Integrity servers with one CPU at H least as fast as a DS15 for many workloads.  And you should get a better price on the Integrity server.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.349 ************************