1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 24 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 351       Contents:P Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale,Itanic screamP Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale,Itanic screamP Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale,Itanic scream" AMD vs Intel, 8086 fight increases Re: How to FTP with UCX 3.3? Re: How to FTP with UCX 3.3? Re: How to FTP with UCX 3.3?; Re: HP is commited to keep on with the VMS Hobbyist Program 3 Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm ) Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk , Re: Problems reading CDROMs on an ALPHA DS10, Re: Problems reading CDROMs on an ALPHA DS10, Re: Problems reading CDROMs on an ALPHA DS10, Re: Problems reading CDROMs on an ALPHA DS10 Re: Reading VMS disks  Re: rename of system disks Re: rename of system disks rename of system disks Re: rename of system disks Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Searching Hp' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 07:02:57 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com Y Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale,Itanic scream C Message-ID: <1119621777.890298.216690@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   B the bible does mention chariots of fire when Elijah was taken into> heaven ... since he taken body and soul, there could have been= a ship to transport him until he returns in the end times ...   @ http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=88   ufos might be demons ...  @ http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=11  ; there are many things we do not know or could even begin to ; comprehend ... the power of God is infinite ... angels have < powers given by God to them that we do not ... there is much we do not know ...  < science now believes in intelligent design ... I suggest you listen to them ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:22:13 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Y Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale,Itanic scream 0 Message-ID: <11bog5habtv51bd@corp.supernews.com>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote:D > the bible does mention chariots of fire when Elijah was taken into@ > heaven ... since he taken body and soul, there could have been? > a ship to transport him until he returns in the end times ...  > B > http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=88 >  > ufos might be demons ... > B > http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=11 > = > there are many things we do not know or could even begin to = > comprehend ... the power of God is infinite ... angels have > > powers given by God to them that we do not ... there is much > we do not know ... > > > science now believes in intelligent design ... I suggest you > listen to them ... >   H You claim that there can be much that you don't know.  How then can you , be so sure of one specific bit of knowledge?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 12:22:06 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale,Itanic scream 3 Message-ID: <Yj0jFz8kNG0o@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <1119621777.890298.216690@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes:  > - > science now believes in intelligent design    F    Bull.  "intelligent design" is a religious notion.  Some scientistsH    may believe in it, but there is no science behind it.  Any phylosophyC    101 class will present simple disproofs of the notion that there      could be any evidence for it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:15:23 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> + Subject: AMD vs Intel, 8086 fight increases , Message-ID: <42BC3FA3.21C6ADB2@teksavvy.com>  X http://news.com.com/Could+HPs+AMD+laptop+sway+Dell/2100-1006_3-5760558.html?tag=nefd.top  F AMD has a 64 bit 8086 laptop-power chip, that is "ready for Longhorn".N Intel says that it won't release a 64 bit laptop chip until Longhorn is ready.  E HP has therefore released an AMD based 64 bit 8086 laptop since Intel E doesn't want to produce an equivalent yet. And now, rumours that Dell E might also be forced to dip a toe in AMD waters to compete against HP  with 64 bit laptops.  G This means that Intel will again have to revise its stated policy, bite E its tongue, and release a 64 bit laptop chip as soon as possible, but , still late in the game since AMD has it now.  B So it seems that AMD is now driving Intel's decisions and Intel noG longer in a leadership position because they are artificially trying to A avoid the development of the 64 bit 8086 to protect the remaining  fragile niche for IA64.     E With HP branded 64 bit laptops now available, I wonder if HP will let F those VMS engineers doing the secret port of VMS to the 8086 leave theD basement of ZKO and work from home, poolside, on golf course, on the beach etc etc :-)   F (Imagine this, while you do a compile of a large module, you go have aH refreshing swim in the ocean and the compile is done when you return :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 06:39:17 -0700/ From: "joerojas@gmail.com" <joerojas@gmail.com> % Subject: Re: How to FTP with UCX 3.3? C Message-ID: <1119620357.570049.185080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   9 So, are you saying that we can only use one or the other? D We are currently using the other one for our DecServers (not the AUI port.)   I am getting a bad feeling :(    Thanks!  JR   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 12:20:09 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) % Subject: Re: How to FTP with UCX 3.3? 3 Message-ID: <kseEyfp9wbZX@eisner.encompasserve.org>   u In article <1119620357.570049.185080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "joerojas@gmail.com" <joerojas@gmail.com> writes: ; > So, are you saying that we can only use one or the other? F > We are currently using the other one for our DecServers (not the AUI > port.) >  > I am getting a bad feeling :(       You got it.  F    You have one ethernet controler with two media selections.  A cheapD    transciever or bridge will probably make the connection you want.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:28:29 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> % Subject: Re: How to FTP with UCX 3.3? 0 Message-ID: <11boghaa65qik83@corp.supernews.com>   joerojas@gmail.com wrote: ; > So, are you saying that we can only use one or the other?   I That's correct.  There is only one ethernet port in the system.  It just  1 supports two different types of cable connection.   F > We are currently using the other one for our DecServers (not the AUI > port.)  ) So, you have a thinwire ethernet segment.    > I am getting a bad feeling :(   F If you need both thinwire and 10baseT/100baseT, that's fine.  But the A MicroVAX cannot be a repeater.  You need to have some equipment,  G repeater/hub/switch which has both types of ports.  I've got a 10baseT  H hub which has one thinwire port, allowing a thinwire segment as part of 
 the ethernet.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:10:19 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.comD Subject: Re: HP is commited to keep on with the VMS Hobbyist ProgramQ Message-ID: <OF19F899C1.7B2CA652-ON8525702A.00480DD3-8525702A.00487DB0@metso.com>   H Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> wrote on 06/23/2005 06:09:42 PM:   > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:  > I > > I would have wished for a comment that your concerns were referred to > > > someone who would contact you and/or fix the difficulties. > J > Maybe some private parts of Ann's answer have been truncated. Who knows? > :-)   D Maybe a "[snip]" or elipsis "..." or some other hint in the originalJ posting would have made me less eager to pounce on poor Annie.  Who knows? 8-)   2 If you're content, then moi, I rest content aussi.   -N.    >  > D.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 03:49:51 -0700 From: icerq4a@spray.se< Subject: Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarmC Message-ID: <1119610191.161895.199720@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Dr. Dweeb wrote: > icerq4a@spray.se wrote:  > > Dr. Dweeb wrote: > >> JF Mezei wrote: > >>> Dave Froble wrote:I > >>>> I keep seeing references to US practices that 'earned' this act of 3 > >>>> terrorism.  I never seem to see any details.  > >>>  > >>> I > >>> Big one is the whole USA policy on middle east. Its constant use of C > >>> VETO at the security council for any resolution that wants to I > >>> punish/criticise Israel for its bad things, while always supporting G > >>> resolutions that criticise Palestine for its bad things. From the H > >>> middle east point of view, this makes the USA a clear supporter of- > >>> Israel and an enemy of the middle east.  > >>>  > >>= > >> Yes, they support the only democracy in the middle east. + > >> Dictatorships do not like democracies.  > > F > > So, if you are a democracy and wear suits, whatever you do is OK ? > >  > ; > This has got to be the most inane comment yet profferred.    OK.   G > a) Show me a dictatorship that is a enamored of democracy and did not G > dissolve/self destruct immediately.  My statements were statements of N > observable reality, to wit, (i) Israel is a democracy and (ii) dictatorships+ > by definition to not prefer democrocracy.   < That is correct, but don't have much to do with what I said.  F > b) At the current point in human history, the evidence suggests thatL > democracies offer the most viable solution for long term survival and wellJ > being (except for a perfect enlightened monarchy, of which there are few > (perhaps none).    Yes?  C (BTW. I think Jordan is a fairly good place to live in... tounge in  cheek.)   I > c) The presupposition that I somehow think that democracy is perfect is + > invalid - see a previous post about this.   8 I didn't thought you were thinking democracy is perfect.  / In fact I should have said that you were wrong, > since the US also support countries in the middle that are not democracies.  J > >>> Then there are the cultural issues of USA multinational corporationsB > >>> nudging their way into those different cultures (think Coke,H > >>> McDonalds, hollywood movies etc). The corporations themselves haveF > >>> no evil motives, and the young people in those countries readilyI > >>> adopt their goods. But it erodes their culture and the older people  > >>> see this as imperialism. > >>>  > >>H > >> Welcome to the world of capital.  Get over it or join the communist > >> revolution. > > 1 > > Hilarious black and white kind of thinking... @ > > "If you are against us you are with the terrorist/communist" > K > Laughable ignorance of what "capital" is and means. Capital does not have H > "imperialist" motives, it has "capital" motives.  The inability of theM > plebes of the world to differentiate is their inability, not the failing of L > "capital".  The "communist motive" is the diametrical opposite, and yes it > is balck and white.   F It has never occurred to me that capital have imperialist motives. TheG situation is certainly not black and white. I hope I am not a communist  if I don't like McDonalds.  : >  Communism != Terrorism and I made no such connection at# > a theoretical or practical level.   > No, you did not, but the black and white thinking is the same.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:30:36 -0400 4 From: "Peter Weaver" <newsgroup@weaverconsulting.ca>2 Subject: Re: mc writeboot on a backuped/image disk+ Message-ID: <3i2qpeFj0340U1@individual.net>    Didier Morandi wrote:  >...F > The first one who posts where that sentence comes from wins a... box: > of swiss chocolates... (ask Peter Weaver, he got his :-)  F Yes, true, takes a few years :) but Didier did make good on his box of9 chocolates when we met at Boot Camp. Thanks again Didier.    --   Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.  Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAX  www.weaverconsulting.ca    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jun 2005 23:43:54 -0700 From: dooleys@snowy.net.au5 Subject: Re: Problems reading CDROMs on an ALPHA DS10 C Message-ID: <1119595434.528539.244710@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    In the past I have used ( MOUNT/MEDIA=CDROM/UNDEF=(FIX:NONE:32256) Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:25:47 +0100 < From: "Chris Blackburn" <chris.blackburn@uk.thalesgroup.com>5 Subject: Re: Problems reading CDROMs on an ALPHA DS10 % Message-ID: <d9gcoc$m3n$1@rdel.co.uk>   3 CDROM was mounted with just a simple MOUNT command.   H I will try forcing the media format to ISO9660 but I don't think it willI make any difference as when the volume is examined with SHOW DEV/FULL the , media format is already reported as ISO9660.   Thanks for suggestion.    % <bill@wcschmidt.com> wrote in message = news:1119556489.881289.186840@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  > " > How was the disk mount on VMS  ? > I > Even some of the earliest VMS versions that do support ISO-9660 require = > use of the additional MOUNT qualifier /MEDIA_FORMAT=ISO9660  >  > Chris Blackburn wrote:H > > Anyone ever encountered problems reading CDROMs on an ALPHA platform when > > the CDROM was ! > > originally produced on a PC ?  > > A > > The CDROM is a single session ISO 9960 compliant disk and all / > > files/directories appear to be correct when G > > viewed on any PC. When viewed on the Alpha DS10 (using the internal  CDROM  > > device DQA0: whichJ > > is described as a CRD-8402B device) the directory structure appears to be > > corrupt with some files K > > missing and some files referenced in more than one directory. Using the  > > DIR/FILE_ID command you H > > can see that each file entry in the directories references the exact same	 > > file.  > > K > > I have tried on other VMS boxes with different device types running the  same > > version of VMS but I getG > > the same problem. The operating system version is currently OpenVMS  7.3-1. > >  > > Many thanks - Chris. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:37:58 +0100 < From: "Chris Blackburn" <chris.blackburn@uk.thalesgroup.com>5 Subject: Re: Problems reading CDROMs on an ALPHA DS10 % Message-ID: <d9gdf7$mvt$1@rdel.co.uk>   J Changing the cluster size to 32256 has made a couple more files accessibleL on the device but not all of them. It looks as if it is something to do withL the cluster size and the was the directory entries are setup. The symptom isC that the same file (with the same file ID) appears in two different L directory paths. On a PC the two directory paths are different and the files within are different.    Many thanks for suggestion.   ' <dooleys@snowy.net.au> wrote in message = news:1119595434.528539.244710@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  > In the past I have used * > MOUNT/MEDIA=CDROM/UNDEF=(FIX:NONE:32256) > Phil >    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 08:02:37 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 5 Subject: Re: Problems reading CDROMs on an ALPHA DS10 3 Message-ID: <4l7fx00gqj7N@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <d9ectb$3ao$1@rdel.co.uk>, "Chris Blackburn" <chris.blackburn@uk.thalesgroup.com> writes:K > Anyone ever encountered problems reading CDROMs on an ALPHA platform when  > the CDROM was  > originally produced on a PC ?   G    I haven't tried that.  But I have had interesting problems doing the A    same with a Mac.  Traditional Mac OS files contain two forks.  C    Dealing with this in a non-Mac environment can be "interesting".   G    When I wrote a CDROM with my Mac ugin OS X it made two files of the  K    same name and version number on the CD for each file that had two forks. J    Copying those files to my Alpha without specifying a version sometimes F    resulted in getting the data I needed and sometimes getting a zero     length file.   H    When I realized what was going on I found I could get both files fromH    the Mac as two versions on my Alpha by wildcarding the version, then     delele the zero length file.   E    I'm not surprised to find differeing concepts of how to use the CD G    file system amoungst different vendors.  Reading and understanding a D    technical standard and implmeneting concepts you don't care aboutF    on your own OS just doesn't seem to be something people bother with    anymore.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:57:39 -0400 4 From: "Peter Weaver" <newsgroup@weaverconsulting.ca> Subject: Re: Reading VMS disks+ Message-ID: <3i2sc5Fjknv9U1@individual.net>    jemcdon41 wrote:G > These licenses were educational.  We did try to reset the system time  >...  9 If there were educational then you can get them for free.   A > The goal is not to use VMS anymore, but only try to provide the  >...  D Why? VMS is a great OS to run, it would be very educational for yourH students to learn that Windows is not the only game in town. Sounds like you have the wrong goal.   --   Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.  Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAX  www.weaverconsulting.ca    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 06:48:20 -0700, From: "DerekB" <derek.boczenowski@gmail.com># Subject: Re: rename of system disks B Message-ID: <1119620900.676968.97630@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  ' That's it! That' what I was forgetting.    Thanks!  -Derek   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:45:35 -0400 6 From: Brad Hamilton <brMadAhaPmiSlton@coMmcAasPt.Snet># Subject: Re: rename of system disks 0 Message-ID: <q_2dncDd5_LikyHfRVn-3A@comcast.com>  
 DerekB wrote:  > Hi!  > I > I used to know how to do this, and then forgot somewhere along the way. F > I have an Alpha 1000A with 6 disks. Doing a show device D, the disks > look like this:  > G > Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  > Trans Mnt H >  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks > Count Cnt 0 > SMCU$DKA400:            Online wrtlck        0H > SMCU$DKB0:              Mounted              0  DISK0         17882130
 >  328   10 > SMCU$DKB100:            Online               00 > SMCU$DKB200:            Online               00 > SMCU$DKB300:            Online               00 > SMCU$DKB400:            Online               00 > SMCU$DKB600:            Online               00 > SMCU$DVA0:              Online               0 > G > I want to change the SMCU prefix to STMARY. I'm having a brain freeze & > on how to go about doing this. Help! >  > -Derek Boczenowski >  St. Mary's Credit Union >   	 Hi Derek,   G Unless I'm mistaken, the SMCU prefix refers to your node name.  If you  I change the node name (be careful, there are other things which depend on  D the node name) to STMARY, that will change the disk prefix, as well.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 06:38:51 -0700, From: "DerekB" <derek.boczenowski@gmail.com> Subject: rename of system disks C Message-ID: <1119620331.637115.160700@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Hi!   G I used to know how to do this, and then forgot somewhere along the way. D I have an Alpha 1000A with 6 disks. Doing a show device D, the disks look like this:   E Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free 	 Trans Mnt F  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks	 Count Cnt . SMCU$DKA400:            Online wrtlck        0F SMCU$DKB0:              Mounted              0  DISK0         17882130  328   1. SMCU$DKB100:            Online               0. SMCU$DKB200:            Online               0. SMCU$DKB300:            Online               0. SMCU$DKB400:            Online               0. SMCU$DKB600:            Online               0. SMCU$DVA0:              Online               0  E I want to change the SMCU prefix to STMARY. I'm having a brain freeze $ on how to go about doing this. Help!   -Derek Boczenowski  St. Mary's Credit Union   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:19:18 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> # Subject: Re: rename of system disks , Message-ID: <42BC3284.3ACF84A0@teksavvy.com>   Brad Hamilton wrote:I > > I want to change the SMCU prefix to STMARY. I'm having a brain freeze ( > > on how to go about doing this. Help!  H > Unless I'm mistaken, the SMCU prefix refers to your node name.  If you > change the node name      S To be more precise, it is the SCSNODE in SYSGEN, not the decnet or tcpip nodenames.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:18:25 -0400 + From: Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?A Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506240153310.30452@frank.harvard.edu>   & On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Dan Foster wrote:l > In article <42ba4bc2$0$67255$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> wrote: >>7 >> You are right that x86 has four levels of privilege.  > I > I should also point out that Alpha had only two privilege levels in the H > CPU, if my recollection is correct. It handled the other two privilege' > levels through trapped PALcode calls.  > A > Ah, yes, here is a reference from a well-known person here. :-)  > G > http://h20276.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/2005/03/30/1112218119000.html  > A > So, it is not necessarily a can't-do item if a CPU has only two ? > privilege levels, if it has some way of emulating the others.   J Hmm.  I certainly wouldn't want to cross swords with an authority such as G Hoff.  I will make the following (perhaps feeble) argument in favor of  2 considering the Alpha as a four-privilege machine.  I Most of the complicated instructions needed by VMS that were implemented  J in microcode on VAX (and therefore considered to be part of the hardware) H were implemented in PALcode on the Alpha.  Examples include complicated I sequences of instructions that have to run atomically such as INSQUE and  C REMQUE as well as CHMK, CHME etc.  In fact, the internal processor  F registers, including the PSL, are implemented in PALcode on the Alpha.  H So ... if the Alpha + VMS PALcode can be considered the hardware in the H same way that the VAX + microcode is, then the Alpha + VMS PALcode is a  four-privilege machine.   D I'll admit that PALcode is a special case; I'm not aware of another I processor that has anything similar to PALcode.  And I'll admit that I'm   out on a limb here.    Chip   --   Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell Turn on, log in, tune out    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:58:12 +0200  From: S <soterroatyahoodotcom> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?$ Message-ID: <42bbe740@news1.ethz.ch>   Dave Froble wrote:E > There are computer users that want/need a very comforting security  I > blanket.  Almost immediate support when there are problems.  All kinds  K > of hand holding.  And they are willing to pay quite well for such.  It's  I > these very profitable relationships that HP seems to be spurning.  And  G > for what, to get their ass kicked by Dell?  To be complete, I should   > call them "No R&D Dell". >   F Speaking of De(ll)vil, I've seen a couple of (were they 7? ) machines @ from Dell in the top computers list. Where are they coming from?   S    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 07:49:36 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <+tVCfVVbKzGb@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <42BB677A.8FB915F6@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Dave Froble wrote: > B > I think that Curly had made the decision to reverse the hopes ofG > Pfeiffer to make Alpha more towards a commoodity chip that would have G > provided the 64 bit solution today, which Intel was still years away. G > First real tangible sign was Compaq allowing Windows on Alpha to die.   E    I think DEC and MS killed WNT on Alpha long before selling DEC to  '    Compaq became the DEC business plan.    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 07:51:03 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <vmmANfMh9kRC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <11bn3daa9ph2248@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  K > I would think that if there are customers who are still on Alpha, either  K >   VMS or Tru64, that would continue to spend money with HP, if given the  K > opportunity, that HP could milk that cow rather easily.  Simply say that  J > they will sell Alphas as long as customers will buy them, and they will * > at a minimum provide support for the OS.  D    I think as VAXen have reminded us, there's a fair amount of moneyG    to be made supporting the platform after system manufacturing stops.    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 07:52:35 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?3 Message-ID: <V2Kdyj7iSfzG@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <11bn3qhm9scqs36@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  C > I could understand this about Compaq.  They were completely a PC  
 > company.  F    Compaq had made it clear that they intended to stop being a PC-onlyC    company and had bought Tandem for that reason before they bought     DEC for that reason.   2    What they did not want to be was a chip vendor.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:06:35 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?2 Message-ID: <vzTue.7615$GL7.4053@news.cpqcorp.net>   Chip Coldwell wrote:   > J > So ... if the Alpha + VMS PALcode can be considered the hardware in the J > same way that the VAX + microcode is, then the Alpha + VMS PALcode is a  > four-privilege machine.   F Yes, the Alpha architecture PLUS the VMS PALcode presents a four-mode B machine.  Just like the Alpha architecture PLUS the Tru64 PALcode  presents a two-mode machine.   --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:16:03 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?, Message-ID: <42BC31C1.5C503038@teksavvy.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:F >    I think DEC and MS killed WNT on Alpha long before selling DEC to) >    Compaq became the DEC business plan.   G I am not so sure of that.  Microsoft would have know that Palmer was in @ talks with Compaq 3 years before the purchase was announced. And> Microsoft would have seen Compaq as a company fully capable ofC leveraging the ALpha platform and finally giving Windows a place in B large systems. In other words, with the prospects of Compaq buyingF Digital, Microsoft woudl have had some hopes that Alpha might actuallyB finally be allowed to succeed once in the hands of a competant CEOB (instead of Palmer that was doing slash and burn, and saying no toJ customers who wanted to buy DEC goods and services (such as FAB services).  F Once Pfeiffer was ousted and replaced by the Curly accountant, it mustG have become quite evident to Microsoft that Alpha wouldn't make it as a G popular platform, so it became very easy to find a reason to stop doing H it. Remember that of all the alternate platforms that NT had been portedA to, Alpha was the one that lasted the longest. MS didn't have any D problems quickly dropping the other platforms, probably becacause asG long as it still had one powerful enterprise CPU (alpha) it could still  try to concquer that market.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 03:38:46 -0700 From: mb301@hotmail.com  Subject: Searching Hp C Message-ID: <1119609526.666824.272480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   ? When is Hp going to sortout the unsatisfactory search facility?   A Goto the main OpenVMS page http://h71000.www7.hp.com/ and type in C "OpenVMS Version 8.2 Release Notes" making sure that search openvms  systems is selected.  ) What does it give you, a link to ba322...   ! Google can find just like that...   g http://www.google.com/search?biw=802&hl=en&q=%22OpenVMS+Version+8.2+Release+Notes%22&btnG=Google+Search    Maybe google can help them ;-)    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 01:01:57 -0700; From: "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" <tomarsin2015@comcast.net> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadB Message-ID: <1119600117.618651.82830@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  F I really dont see the difference between borrowing the software from aD "friend" or downloading it from a "friend". As I recall the wiz evenF made a statement to the effect "if you boss doesnot mind you borrowingG or making a copy" So if its okay to make a"illegal copy so a friend can B use it" then it should be within means to allow people to downloadE software if they are having problems obtaining the software. I should E say about 2 years ago I had the entire 5.5-2 CDs online and announced E it just like I did this, and I had no problems. Oh well I am going to E let the chips fall where ever and if HP tells me to stop I will or if C they want to take the equipment I even hold the door open for them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:26:50 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download4 Message-ID: <42bbc3cd$0$14490$626a14ce@news.free.fr>   tomarsin2015@comcast.net wrote: H > I really dont see the difference between borrowing the software from aF > "friend" or downloading it from a "friend". As I recall the wiz evenH > made a statement to the effect "if you boss doesnot mind you borrowingI > or making a copy" So if its okay to make a"illegal copy so a friend can D > use it" then it should be within means to allow people to downloadG > software if they are having problems obtaining the software. I should G > say about 2 years ago I had the entire 5.5-2 CDs online and announced G > it just like I did this, and I had no problems. Oh well I am going to G > let the chips fall where ever and if HP tells me to stop I will or if E > they want to take the equipment I even hold the door open for them.   Q Tom, the difference is in the public advertising here. Everyone sends private IP  O addresses to everyone in the VMS Community since ages to solve SW availability  < problems, but these addresses are not posted in public fora.  0 Please comply with the Underground VMS rules :-)   D.= (thanks for the Cobol compiler, btw, I had an urgent need...)    --  1 Didier MORANDI - Expert informaticien - VMS / SAP 0   13 chemin du Gu, 1213 Petit-Lancy (GE) Suisse0 Tl. : +33(0)6 7983 6418 ~ www.didiermorandi.com   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 05:02:55 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadC Message-ID: <1119614575.146980.148840@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Opcom wrote:B > There is a VMS dist. for VAX and Alpha hobbyists, or used to be,A > which could be bought from Montagar Software. This was even one < > of the answers given by to a hobbyist by "ask the wizard".> > Another answer was to 'borrow' a dist from a friend. Posting< > these 'warez' on the internet is however a definite no-no. >   G It still is available AFAIK.  There have been recent posts about people A getting it within the last month or so.  However, it's "stuck" at F V7.3-1 for Alpha which is quite old and no sign of any updates.  I canE understand since I'm sure the volume is pretty low and I highly doubt / they make much, if not lose, money on the deal.   A And while I understand the original poster's desire to help (I've B thought of doing the same myself on several occasions) I'd have toC agree with the rest that it's not the way to do it and hopefully it E won't endanger the entire Hobbyist program (which would be my biggest  fear).   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2005 12:39:15 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3i2d7jFj83m2U2@individual.net>   , In article <42BB84BE.8FD43B23@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Jeff Cameron wrote: G >> Unless you have entered into a special agreement with HP, this is in N >> violation of the standard software agreements, even if you have a "Right toO >> Copy". If you are lucky you may just get a "Cease and desist" slap, at worst L >> HP could really come down on you hard, and seize your equipment or worse. > ( > In all likelyhood, HP wouldn't notice.   Trust me, they'll notice.    > I > If some folks have been trying to get this dossier to move forwards for F > years, perhaps this is what it takes to let VMS management know that9 > this is an important issue and raise its priority some.  > E > And if unofficial distribution starts, perhaps HP will see value in B > allowing one "official" hobbyist distribution that has the right< > controls to prevent abuse and also prevent loss of revenu.  F Or maybe they will look at this in the same light as happened with theE PDP-11 when people started treating the OSes in a similar manner and  @ just kill the hobbyist program entirely.  Ann Livermore said sheD supported the Hobbyist Program, not the theft of HP's IP.  And there@ are people over her who may take a real dim view of this action.     > I > Or perhaps we could start digging a tunnel to the basement of ZKO, take H > pictures of the team who is porting VMS to the 8086 and then blackmailE > HP: give us distribution for hobbyists, or we reveal the proof that @ > you're porting VMS to the 8086 :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)  . I wouldn't be holding my breath at this point.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2005 12:41:23 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3i2dbjFj83m2U3@individual.net>   ; In article <CHMue.1422$Lj2.272@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>,   	Opcom <eccm@swbell.net> writes:C > There is a VMS dist. for VAX and Alpha hobbyists, or used to be,  B > which could be bought from Montagar Software. This was even one = > of the answers given by to a hobbyist by "ask the wizard".  ? > Another answer was to 'borrow' a dist from a friend. Posting  < > these 'warez' on the internet is however a definite no-no. > ? > Now, is that the real 8086, or some crummy pentuim that it's  B > secretly being ported to? I would like to get some more use out  > of those old IBM PC-XTs.    F Sorry to disappoint you but the XT had an 8088.  Not even close to the
 real 8086.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:53:37 -0700 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download0 Message-ID: <BEE15E71.1006B%roktsci@comcast.net>   On 6/24/05 1:01 AM, in article5 1119600117.618651.82830@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, < "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" <tomarsin2015@comcast.net> wrote:  H > I really dont see the difference between borrowing the software from aF > "friend" or downloading it from a "friend". As I recall the wiz evenH > made a statement to the effect "if you boss doesnot mind you borrowingI > or making a copy" So if its okay to make a"illegal copy so a friend can D > use it" then it should be within means to allow people to downloadG > software if they are having problems obtaining the software. I should G > say about 2 years ago I had the entire 5.5-2 CDs online and announced G > it just like I did this, and I had no problems. Oh well I am going to G > let the chips fall where ever and if HP tells me to stop I will or if E > they want to take the equipment I even hold the door open for them.  > J The problem is that you have made the software publicly available, and youK are not controlling it to make sure it only goes to "your friends". In fact K some of the software is protected against transport to some countries under G Federal law. Not only do you have HP to worry about, but Uncle Sam too!    Jeff   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:43:20 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download) Message-ID: <d9h668$7td$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   V In article <3i2d7jFj83m2U2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:- >In article <42BB84BE.8FD43B23@teksavvy.com>, 1 >	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  >> Jeff Cameron wrote:H >>> Unless you have entered into a special agreement with HP, this is inO >>> violation of the standard software agreements, even if you have a "Right to P >>> Copy". If you are lucky you may just get a "Cease and desist" slap, at worstM >>> HP could really come down on you hard, and seize your equipment or worse.  >>  ) >> In all likelyhood, HP wouldn't notice.  >  >Trust me, they'll notice. >  >>  J >> If some folks have been trying to get this dossier to move forwards forG >> years, perhaps this is what it takes to let VMS management know that : >> this is an important issue and raise its priority some. >>  F >> And if unofficial distribution starts, perhaps HP will see value inC >> allowing one "official" hobbyist distribution that has the right = >> controls to prevent abuse and also prevent loss of revenu.  > G >Or maybe they will look at this in the same light as happened with the F >PDP-11 when people started treating the OSes in a similar manner and A >just kill the hobbyist program entirely.  Ann Livermore said she E >supported the Hobbyist Program, not the theft of HP's IP.  And there A >are people over her who may take a real dim view of this action.  >   L However it seems remarkable that HP hasn't provided such download facilitiesN themselves ages ago. Being able to download the applications is useless if you! haven't got the PAKs to run them. ! Come on HP join the 21st century.   
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   >  >>  J >> Or perhaps we could start digging a tunnel to the basement of ZKO, takeI >> pictures of the team who is porting VMS to the 8086 and then blackmail F >> HP: give us distribution for hobbyists, or we reveal the proof thatA >> you're porting VMS to the 8086 :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)  > / >I wouldn't be holding my breath at this point.  >  >bill  >  >-- K >Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves E >bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.  >University of Scranton   | B >Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>      ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:57:32 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download( Message-ID: <opssvqh6fhzgicya@hyrrokkin>  9 On 23 Jun 2005 10:23:33 -0700, tomarsin2015@comcast.net   ! <tomarsin2015@comcast.net> wrote:    > Hello @ > The following VAX software is available for download using ftp > BASIC V3.9 > C V6.4
 > C++ V5.6
 > COBOL V5.7A 
 > FMS V2.4 > UCX V4.2 AND V5.3  > DW-MOTIF V1.2-6  > FORTRAN V6.6
 > PASCAL V5.8 H > These are from the December 2004/Q4 CDL. I will be adding more as timeH > permits. Right now the software can only be access by ftp. The addressB > is 68.35.167.136 and the username is vaxsoftware. No password isI > needed. If there is a layered product you need then let me know. I have C > cds going back to 92 so if its a HP VAX layered product more then  > likely I have it. 	 > phillip  > 1   PL/I 3.8 at kednos.com may be freely downloaded    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:07:58 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <42BC2FDD.8D2745E@teksavvy.com>   ! "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" wrote:  > H > I really dont see the difference between borrowing the software from a. > "friend" or downloading it from a "friend".     B However, there is a difference when you publicly advertiose freelyF downloadable software without any controls. This means that commercial= customers could download this software instead of buying SPL.   E Now, if the kits that the poster advertised were already available on F the hobyists CDs (a subset of what the real SPL is), then perhaps this
 isn't as bad.   < While the software is subject to licence checks, it is still< intellectual property of HP and HP says it can't be publiclyF "broadcasted". So one would need some form of OK from HP to do this in, such a way that it woudln't hurt HP revenus.   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2005 16:32:11 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3i2qsbFjb2elU1@individual.net>   + In article <42BC2D81.50D57E5@teksavvy.com>, 0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Dave Froble wrote:E >> As other have said, you're opening yourself up to some potentially  >> serious legal action by HP. > G > I don't think that the first step HP would take is to hire lawyers to # > instigate a serious legal action.   B HP, like any corporation, already employs more than enough lawyers to handle this.   F >                                    My guess is that they would use aH > normal employee to send a letter to the person advising them that this > is not legal.   7 That is one of the specific functions of those lawyers.    > G > If the person then relies "I am sorry, I di not know if it was legal, C > and that he would be willing to work with HP to find ways to make G > software media available to hobbysists, then my guess is that nothing B > would escalate to "legal" threaths and perhaps it would put someS > priority to the issue of finding an acceptable way to provide media to hobbyists.  > F >> I'd suggest just as publically announcing that you've withdrawn the >> software.   > J > No, I would wait for HP to contact him. But I would most certaintly stop > advertising it though.  E Isn't that like saying I'll just keep speeding and running stop signs E till someone tells me to stop?  The law is quite clear.  And there is J no requirement for HP to be nice guys and just say, "Stop".  The potentialF cash liability for doing this could be very upseting  And the offender has absolutely no defense.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:39:56 +0000 (UTC) ( From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download5 Message-ID: <d9hd0s$tkv$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>   [ In article <42BC2EAA.E3E2363@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  > F > As such, there is a need to talk to HP about methods to control suchG > downloads and limit it to hobbyists so that we get access to the kits 9 > and HO is comfortable that such sustem won't be abused.   . I don't understand what the fuss is all about.7 As I understand it, HP isn't willing to sell the CDs to 8 hobbyists at a decent price, so there's no revenue they  would loose anyway. > Plus that CDs w/o PAKs is useless stuff, at best one could use0 them as a saucer for some legacy DEC coffee mug.  : Anyway I don't understand why Compaq/HP haven't ended thisD braindead DEC PAK hell, where you have to license every single piece/ of software just to be able to use the base OS. @ Look at IBM, HP (pre-merger), Sun etc, they are happily still inD business although they let their OSes run (technically) license-free5 on any hardware which can digest the respective CDs.      I OTOH it's certainly not a wise move by the OP to advertise pirate copies, # because that would give HP excuses. = The "normal" discreet way would have been to tell people some D "look what I've got at home, send me an eMail if want to know more".   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2005 16:53:00 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3i2s3cFjb2elU2@individual.net>   5 In article <d9hd0s$tkv$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, + 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: ] > In article <42BC2EAA.E3E2363@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  >>  G >> As such, there is a need to talk to HP about methods to control such H >> downloads and limit it to hobbyists so that we get access to the kits: >> and HO is comfortable that such sustem won't be abused. > 0 > I don't understand what the fuss is all about.9 > As I understand it, HP isn't willing to sell the CDs to  > hobbyists at a decent price,    ? Let's keep this in perspective.  They sell their IP at a decent = price.  The fact that you think it is too much is irrelevant. ; It's their IP and they fvet to set the price. End of story.   : >                              so there's no revenue they  > would loose anyway.   > Of course there is revenue to loose as you have no idea who is# downloading it or for what purpose.   > Your argument is like saying stealing satellite or cable TV is> OK cause there's nothing on but garbage anyway.  The companies6 providing the copntent (and the courts) don't agree.    A Or, you have the music sharing programs.  You could argue that no > revenue is lost cause the people doing the exchange only do it? cause it's free and wouldn't buy the music if that was the only " way.  See the preceding paragraph.  @ > Plus that CDs w/o PAKs is useless stuff, at best one could use2 > them as a saucer for some legacy DEC coffee mug.  G Not true.  People who pay for PAK's still have to buy the distribution. A But not if someone is giving it away.  Thus, the loss of revenue.    > < > Anyway I don't understand why Compaq/HP haven't ended thisF > braindead DEC PAK hell, where you have to license every single piece1 > of software just to be able to use the base OS.   9 You don't.  There is only one PAK needed for the base OS.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2005 09:46:12 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadB Message-ID: <1119631572.529323.80890@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: N > However it seems remarkable that HP hasn't provided such download facilitiesP > themselves ages ago. Being able to download the applications is useless if you# > haven't got the PAKs to run them. # > Come on HP join the 21st century.  >  > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >   D They have.  If you have a subscription (or perhaps even just buy oneB "issue") of the CONDIST you get a web site and password good for 3G months to download the latest versions of anything on the distribution.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:49:50 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <42BC39A8.88BE4CA3@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > HP, like any corporation, already employs more than enough lawyers > to handle this.   F How much would the legal, department charge VMS department for writingH of the letter ? Do you really think that HP as a corporation will noticeG this ? In all likelyhood, some VMS employee would have seen the message " and told VMS management about it.   G > Isn't that like saying I'll just keep speeding and running stop signs G > till someone tells me to stop?  The law is quite clear.  And there is ? > no requirement for HP to be nice guys and just say, "Stop".       F There is no requirement, you are correct. But consider that HP doesn'tE see VMS as strategic, it doesn't advertise it, no longer sells VAXes, H and is soon to stop selling Alphas.  While HP have every right to pounceF on the nice chap, my guess is that they won't. They are too big a fishH to be bothered by some silly little bothersome VMS issue of distributing software for dead products.     C If the chap had been distributing proprietary EFI software for IA64 D systems or proprietary Windows drivers, then it is likely they wouldF have sent a court "cease and desist" order before even sending a angry lawyer's letter.    H And in terms of Digital-heritage management's protection of intellectualD property, do I need to remind you that Digital turned a blind eye onD Intel stealing Alpha IP for years and only brought the issue up onlyH once Palmer had runned out of ways to raise money and then went to Intel  to beg for some financial help ?  E Need I remind you that digital heritage people donated a lot of VMS's G leading edge IP to Microsoft in exchange for the right to sell Windows, 4 something Microsoft does to anyone who asks for it ?  C And you're worried that HP would think this donloading of a few VMS L specific files that need a licence to be of any use is a huge problem ??????   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:53:22 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <42BC3A7B.39777090@teksavvy.com>   Michael Kraemer wrote:0 > I don't understand what the fuss is all about.9 > As I understand it, HP isn't willing to sell the CDs to 9 > hobbyists at a decent price, so there's no revenue they  > would loose anyway.   F The problem is that if there is a "free" way to download the SPL, thenD commercial customers might no longer be interested in paying the bigG bucks to buy SPL subscriptions. Hence the need to control access to the  SPL to hobbyists only.    D When management looks at a request to approve this, if it results inF loss of revenu for HP (no matter how small), it then becomes harder to justify allowing this.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:36:14 +0000 (UTC) 0 From: m.kraemer@biors6a.gsi.de (Michael Kraemer)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download5 Message-ID: <d9hgae$ukv$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>   V In article <3i2s3cFjb2elU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:7 > In article <d9hd0s$tkv$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, - > 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:  >  > > > > > Anyway I don't understand why Compaq/HP haven't ended thisH > > braindead DEC PAK hell, where you have to license every single piece3 > > of software just to be able to use the base OS.  > ; > You don't.  There is only one PAK needed for the base OS.  >   @ But only if you follow DECs narrow definition what a base OS is. Just some comparisons:  A If I buy an IBM box (fresh or at eBay) I can get a set of AIX CDs H (comes with the new machine or at eBay), I can install and use all of itK with no restriction, including TCP/IP, CDE, JFS, LVM, multi-user login etc. 5 Takes me about 1 hour or less and I'm up and running. @ Now if I want support, native compilers, additional middleware,  that's a different story.   9 Let's take a look at DEC's first attempt to Unix: Ultrix. J I can at least run the OS, including TCP/IP, DECwindows, and maybe 2 users
 (I think).  H Enters OSF/1 aka DEC Unix aka Tru64, which is supposed to be "superior".@ I can run the OS, but only as root. For others I need a license.E For parts of the OS (AdvFS and stuff I guess) I need another license.   A Enters VMS. I need a license for the OS, for TCP/IP, for the GUI, L for every single piece which come integrated and license-free with the other OSes.   * Don't tell me it's for economical reasons.A PAK-free AIX is alive and well, whereas PAK-plagued DEC OSes are   pretty much dead.      ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:42:09 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <42BC45E7.35D602D1@teksavvy.com>   Michael Kraemer wrote:, > Don't tell me it's for economical reasons.B > PAK-free AIX is alive and well, whereas PAK-plagued DEC OSes are > pretty much dead.     G I disagree. The concept of PAKs is not all evil. Consider most personal D computer commercial grade software. They have the "PAK" concept too.C When you first start the application, it asks you to enter a serial E number, some personal info and that gets registered with the software A vendor over the internet. (in the past via 800 number with dialup 
 connection).    C The concept of a PAK is not bad per say.  By the owner of VMS could B simplify things much more with fasrt easier ways to purchase a PAKG on-line with the PAK emailed to you, thus greatly reducing costs to HP. G And ISVs wouldn't be stuck with all teh paperwork to transfer PAks from + their name to that of the customer etc etc.   F And if PAKs mean that it is much easier for VMS management to agree toE on-line software distribution in a controlled ffashion, then it is to  the advantage of hobbyists.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.351 ************************