1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 26 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 355       Contents: corrupt PCSI database? Re: corrupt PCSI database? Re: corrupt PCSI database? Re: HTML to text Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program - Re: Problem booting VMS CD on Alpha PWS 500au  Re: rename of system disks" Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report" Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report" Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report" Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 08:30:09 -0400 + From: Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam>  Subject: corrupt PCSI database? A Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506260828050.19968@frank.harvard.edu>   ' I think I have a corrupt PCSI database:    $ product list *5 %PCSIUI-I-NOMATCH, no products were found matching: * K %PCSIUI-E-NOPROD, no products were found on which to perform this operation M %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error condition   B and I know I've installed lots of layered products using "PRODUCT K INSTALL".  Is there any hope of rebuilding the database?  Which file[s] is  
 it stored in?    Chip   --   Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell "Turn on, log in, tune out"    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:11:53 -0400 + From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> # Subject: Re: corrupt PCSI database? A Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050626090935.05ebd8c0@mail.patmedia.net>   + At 08:30 AM 6/26/2005, Chip Coldwell wrote:   ( >I think I have a corrupt PCSI database: >  >$ product list * 6 >%PCSIUI-I-NOMATCH, no products were found matching: *L >%PCSIUI-E-NOPROD, no products were found on which to perform this operationN >%PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error condition > C >and I know I've installed lots of layered products using "PRODUCT  A >INSTALL".  Is there any hope of rebuilding the database?  Which   >file[s] is it stored in?    Don't you want to do   $ product history    instead?   $ product list  6 will list out files contained in a specific pcsi file.   Ken      ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:08:16 GMT # From: Beach Runner <bob@nospam.com> # Subject: Re: corrupt PCSI database? = Message-ID: <Axzve.121584$VH2.104116@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>   H If you hae a valid contract htere is a long procedure.  Going back to a + working version will save you much trouble.    Ken Robinson wrote:   - > At 08:30 AM 6/26/2005, Chip Coldwell wrote:  > * >> I think I have a corrupt PCSI database: >> >> $ product list * 8 >> %PCSIUI-I-NOMATCH, no products were found matching: *E >> %PCSIUI-E-NOPROD, no products were found on which to perform this   >> operationG >> %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error   >> condition >>E >> and I know I've installed lots of layered products using "PRODUCT  C >> INSTALL".  Is there any hope of rebuilding the database?  Which   >> file[s] is it stored in?  >  >  > Don't you want to do >  > $ product history  > 
 > instead? >  > $ product list > 8 > will list out files contained in a specific pcsi file. >  > Ken    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2005 07:22:18 -0700( From: "Scott" <DocTrinsograce@gmail.com> Subject: Re: HTML to text C Message-ID: <1119795738.409236.226960@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   ? Keith's answer is a lot better.  But in the olden days we would ' probably have done something like this:    $ EDIT/TECO INFILE.HTML ' <N<$; -1D !LOOP! 0A-62"N D OLOOP$' D>$$   , I sure hope TECO has been ported to Itanium!   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:51:43 -0700 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program0 Message-ID: <BEE39E8F.101F3%roktsci@comcast.net>   On 6/25/05 4:07 PM, in article5 1119740832.130195.64800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, B "susan_skonetski@hotmail.com" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote:   > 0 > Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable?L Yes, Extremely. I would not be able to use my VMS machine at home if it were not for it.  > ' > How do you use your Hobbyist license? L I already have some licenses that came with the Machine, But VMS was not oneK of them, So I primarily use it for the Base license, and the ability to get J the Process Software Multinet Hobbyist license. I use my machine primarilyH for the development of FORTRAN code. I'm writing a book with the workingB title of "Numerical Analysis of Common Problems in Number Theory". > F > Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that?F I have an electronic reminder when it gets close to expiration, then IL request the new licenses about a week or so before the previous ones expire.   > Do you get the CD's?+ No, I have access to the CD's through work.  > D > Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobbyH > costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to > put them. K Some sort of discount or consideration when needing hardware support. Maybe 2 some sort of Walk up  repair/parts exchange depot. > " > What type of machine do you use?
 DS20/Dual CPU  > I > The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity A > how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?  > K That really depends on how available Integrity hardware is to the hobbyist.  >  > Thanks for your time.  > 
 Thank you! > Sue  >  Jeff Cameron   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:23:29 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> " Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program( Message-ID: <opsszd9fu4zgicya@hyrrokkin>  C On 25 Jun 2005 16:07:12 -0700, <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote:    > Dear Newsgroup,  > H > Talk to me about the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.  I really can't explain; > why I am asking, you just have to trust me in a good way.  > F > THE PROGRAM IS NOT AT RISK AT ALL I AM DOING PERSONAL RESEARCH - VMS* > Engineering is commited to this program. > F > I remember when we were at DECUS and Pat J. got up and asked the DECC > listens panel about the concept, there was a huge applause and it H > seemed like the right thing to do. I have to be honest and say all theE > friends of the DFW LUG knew what was coming and we were holding our F > breath. So the DFW LUG, Dave Cathy and John Wisniewski in particularH > took on the work of doing pretty much the whole program.  And now Dave( > alone.  Anyway I am making myself sad. > H > I have a few questions for this newsgroup.  You can reply here or send5 > me mail either to my hotmail account or my hp mail.  > 0 > Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable?H Well we are a commercial site so we don't use it ourselves, but we offerE Hobbyists a PL/I license provided thet have a hobbyist license from   	 Montagar. F We generate the paks automatically online for registrants meeting thisJ criterion.  The PAKs are autmatically mailed to the registrant so we are   ableJ to keep track to where it was sent.  Can this be abused?  Sure, but so farE only uncovered one case where the offender ponied up for a commercial  license. > ' > How do you use your Hobbyist license?  > F > Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that? > Do you get the CD's? > D > Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobbyH > costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to > put them.  > " > What type of machine do you use? > I > The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity A > how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?  Only time will tell. >  >  > Thanks for your time.  >  > Sue  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:10:57 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program$ Message-ID: <d9mk2h$vq5$1@online.de>  B In article <1119740832.130195.64800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,$ susan_skonetski@hotmail.com writes:    > Dear Newsgroup,  > H > Talk to me about the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.  I really can't explain; > why I am asking, you just have to trust me in a good way.  > F > THE PROGRAM IS NOT AT RISK AT ALL I AM DOING PERSONAL RESEARCH - VMS* > Engineering is commited to this program.  H Great.  Current discussion has been revolving around one person talking I of making software distributions available, ostensibly to hobbyists, and  @ there was fear that this might endanger the hobbyist programme, E especially since the PDP hobbyist programme WAS cancelled due to the  F wrong behaviour of just a few individuals.  Make it clear that almost G all hobbyists are considerate people and that the programme should not  ? suffer from the wrongdoings of just a few people.  If HP feels  I threatened by this person, please take all legal action possible against  5 him, possibly enlisting the help of Lars Ulrich.  :-)   0 > Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable?   Yes.  ' > How do you use your Hobbyist license?   H I use VMS for all the computing stuff I do at home---email, newsgroups, H browsing the web.  I used to work in academic research and still dabble D in that as a hobby, also using my VMS cluster.  And, of course, VMS  itself is a hobby.  F > Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that?  0 Via the WWW form at Montager.  Very easy to use.   > Do you get the CD's?  B I borrow the CDs from the consolidated distribution for installingI stuff.  I bought a few CDs from DEC: the ones I really need (an OS CD to   boot from, documentation CDs).  D > Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobbyH > costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to > put them.   C Apparently it is a real problem for some hobbyists to get access to E media.  Make CDs available via mail order for a reasonable price, say ' $20.  Include all the layered products.   " > What type of machine do you use?  G Mostly VAXstation 4000/60, but also 4000/90, VAX 4000/100A, VAXstation  F 3100 (30, 38, 48), ALPHAstation 255/233, DEC 3000/600 and 300LX.  (If F anyone near Frankfurt am Main in Germany (or further away, if you are G willing to pay my travel costs) needs an ALPHAServer 2000 or 2100, let  	 me know!)   I > The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity A > how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?   H The same as on VAX and ALPHA, once Itanium machines become available at C a hobbyist-friendly price which are somehow much better than ALPHA  ' machines hobbyists would otherwise use.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 06:35:14 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 6 Subject: Re: Problem booting VMS CD on Alpha PWS 500au( Message-ID: <opsszb00h3zgicya@hyrrokkin>  G On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:15:44 -0400, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    wrote:  ! > johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote: J >> Nothing in particular stands out as being wrong with your setup. I haveI >> a PWS of the same vintage - i.e. the original model with the Intel SIO ? >> chip which keeps you from using an IDE CD-ROM.  The only two I >> differences I see are the firmware version and the CD-ROM.  There is a I >> slightly newer firmware available (V7.2-1, March 6 2000) and your SCSI G >> CD-ROM drive is unfamilar to me.  Doing a little Googling shows that G >> it's based upon a Matsushita drive.  I have not been able to find if F >> that is one that is compatible with VMS's booting requirements (theB >> 512-byte sector size - most CDROM drives are set to 2048-bytes)G >> Generally the best luck is found using DEC RRD46/47's or the Toshiba D >> equivalent's of the XM-5701B and XM-6201B.  Others work too.  ForG >> example, I have in mine a Yamaha CR2100S CD-R which boots just fine.  >>  The Alpha firmware link is: 6 >>  http://ftp.digital.com/pub/Digital/Alpha/firmware/G >>  Okay. I just found something.  You have a device unknown to the SRM  >> console software. >>5 >>>       Bus 01  Slot 08: Vendor: 104c  Device: 3d07 K >>   Looking over the list I assume it's your video card.  Perhaps the boot I >> is hanging at the point it switches from the default VGA driver to the G >> VMS video driver.  What kind of card is it?  VMS is very picky about D >> supported video cards.  See the OpenVMS FAQ Section 5.16 for some >> information; >> < http://h71000.www7.hp.com/faq/vmsfaq_008.html#mgmt24 > * >>  and search the OpenVMS Wizard for more- >>   < http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/wizard/ >   >>  Hope this gets you on track. >> > L > If it is an unsupported video card, you may be able to use a terminal or  F > terminal emulator attached to COM1 to boot the system.  Most ALpha  E > systems will allow this.  I don't know specifically about the PWS   
 > systems. >  he could >>> set console serial  J then attach a cable to the serial port and if  PC run hyperterminal set to) 9600-N-8-1 or if VMS set host device-name    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 06:12:25 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> # Subject: Re: rename of system disks ( Message-ID: <opsszayz06zgicya@hyrrokkin>  G On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:02:50 -0400, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    wrote:   > Brad Hamilton wrote: >> Michael Moroney wrote:  >>- >>> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>>  >>>  >>>> DerekB wrote: >>>>- >>>>> That's it! That' what I was forgetting.  >>>>> 
 >>>>> Thanks!  >>>>> -Derek >>>>>  >>>  >>> G >>>> Why do I get the feeling that there will soon be questions about   + >>>> problems after changing the node name?  >>>  >>>  >>> L >>> Yup. Which will it be?  Can't join cluster because SCSNODE was changed   >>> but H >>> SCSSYSTEMID wasn't?  Queues messed up?  Won't boot because of system. >>> disk already mounted?  DECnet won't start?G >>   To be fair to the OP (and myself) - I did insert a parenthetical   L >> warning about the far-reaching consequences of changing the node name.   B >> Most system managers will not do so without understanding the  ! >> implications of such a change. K >>  Section 5.7 of the OpenVMS FAQ explains the process in great detail -   J >> step number one (as is true for most system changes) is to BACKUP the   >> system disk.  > J > Don't take my previous post in the wrong manner.  I've made a habit of  K > doing just that when I want to set up a new system.  Make an image copy   G > of the system disk, usually be temporarily mounting the disk on the   J > source system, then moving it to the target system, boot it up, MIN if  K > I'm not too lazy, change the SCSNODE and other stuff, cause a new queue   L > file to be opened, re-configure DECnet, TCP/IP, and probably a few other  G > things.  It's been several years since I've done it, so I'd have to   + > refresh my memory on all that's required.  > L > It sure beats the heck out of a fresh install.  I've already got all the  @ > custom configuration, COM files, and such that I normally use. > L > The key is, you have to know all the ramifications, or at least the ones  ! > that affect your configuration.  >  > Dave  K Summarixing all this in the form of a checklist would makr it suitable as    an entry for the FAQ file >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:30:48 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG+ Subject: Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report 0 Message-ID: <00A45DB1.D1B6F5D3@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <Bw$TPSTn2u3o@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: V >In article <00A45CEE.4305A753@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > J >>>HP corporate sent evaluations to the attendees 123 of the 200 responded7 >>>with an official rating of 4.6 out of a possible 5.0  >>  # >> What was the selection criteria?  > < >The evaluation could only be done by people with particular; >combinations of web browser brands, versions and settings.   I Let me guess.  Infernalnet Exploiter running on Redmond-warez and you had J to fellate Billzebub himself to get it to function.  Why can't HP crawl upJ out of that Micro$tench dung pit and realize there are other alternatives.   --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:31:39 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG+ Subject: Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report 0 Message-ID: <00A45DB1.EFBD9EE7@SendSpamHere.ORG>  f In article <1119738698.411638.99100@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com writes:
 >Sorry Brian, 4 >I did not know you wanted to teach the intro class. >sue   No!  I wanted to attend it.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:25:06 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>+ Subject: Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report + Message-ID: <42BED6E2.6191EE4D@comcast.net>    "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: > 2 > On 25 Jun 2005 at 20:40, David J Dachtera wrote:F > > Still waiting to hear what's been accepted - if anything - for the > > Tech Forum in "Nawlins". > : > I got an email asking what equipment I needed for my VAX > Virtualization hands-on,  . ...as did I for my DCL Programming hands-on...  . > so I guess it made it past the first hurdle.  H ...but, like me, it's still just a guess. I'm looking for something moreD definitive. travel plans and such need to be made well in advance to minimize costs.   ; > Status still shows "New" on the presenter's page, though.   	 Likewise.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Jun 2005 09:51:03 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com + Subject: Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report C Message-ID: <1119804663.724472.221940@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   @ At this point there are no plans to change plans for the OpenVMSG Advanced Technical  boot camp for 2006, the next boot camp is scheduled G for the week of May 22 starting Sunday at noon-ish ending on Friday the  27th around noon-ish.    sue    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 26 Jun 05 07:58:02 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <TNqdnYCY071L4yPfRVn-ow@rcn.net>  + In article <3i5dhsFjrs9uU1@individual.net>, ,    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:- >In article <XZednaH9mMkE9yDfRVn-hw@rcn.net>,  >	jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: 9 >> In article <Xns967FDE695DF3dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>, + >>    "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote: + >>>%NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Bill Gunshannon wrote in & >>>news:3i31isFjbqt3U1@individual.net  >>> 	 >>><snip>  >>> H >>>> Well, when you own VMS you will be free to use such an arrangement.G >>>> But right now, it belongs to HP and they, too, are free to license H >>>> it any way they wish.  None of this gives anyone the right to steal
 >>>> HP's IP.  >>> J >>>This is exactly the point I tried to make in the first place.  None of  the C >>>people involved in the "debate" have the right to decide on how  J >>>distribution is handled, so their "suggestions" have very little value. >>> K >>>There are constraints as a result of what is considered "interpersonal"  F >>>sharing, live within them and HP will ignore you completely.  Live  outside * >>>them, and you are inviting prosecution. >>  @ >> It's worse than that.  If HP notices and objects, the fucking> >> idiot has queered it for everybody else, past, present, and >> especially future.  >>  B >> Nobody will be able to learn how a well-mannered OS is supposed
 >> to act. >>   > I >Which is why I used the PDP-11 example.  Very much because of hobbyist's H >cavalier attitude regarding Mentec's IP the only hobbyist's who can runH >RSTS, RSX or RT-11 are those who's moral code allows them to ignore theH >IP Rights of others.  Sadly, this punishes the innocent while having noF >effect on the guilty, but I can certainly see Mentec's point of view.  = I understand all points of view because I happened to work in  the middle of it all.   E >It would be a real shame if the actions of a few were to cause HP to  >affect the same attitude.  < HP will have the same attitude since they have no indication9 of being in the OS biz long term.  One of the problems of < not making sources available to the kiddies is you shut down< the most important method of training your future customers.7 It's much cheaper and more efficient to have kids learn 5 on their own and be ramped up by the time you want to  sell to them or hire them.  ; OTOH, acquiring the money to pay your developers is a basic 8 requirement.  DEC used to do this by selling hardware.  ; Software-only vendors have a more difficult time with this. : Software distributors never have to deal with this problem; because they're only doing the actions for short term gain.   6 I never figured out how to solve this funding problem.  9 There is also the human psychological aspect where having : an exclusive knowledge is power.  This is why people loved@ TOPS-10.  Many people at one site could own a piece of knowledge8 and be important to the others without a degradation of < the machine's user thruput.  This ownership of knowledge has< a lot to do with the intellectual propery stuff (in addition! to trying to make money with it).      /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 26 Jun 05 08:10:28 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <q_qdnUsX-PIiHCPfRVn-1Q@rcn.net>  , In article <42BD84AF.90973B06@teksavvy.com>,1    JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:  >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: @ >> It's worse than that.  If HP notices and objects, the fucking> >> idiot has queered it for everybody else, past, present, and >> especially future.  > B >But this can also be seen as an opportunity to advance the cause.  < No, it can't.  The action is guaranteed to self-destruction.8 This is a similar attitude that anarchists have: if the : mean, nasty infrastructure is destroyed, they will get the( message and indulge my flights of fancy. > I >It is important to signal to HP that hobbysists needs access to media to @ >take advantage of all the licences that are available under the >programme.   = Sigh!  You are making an assumption that HP gives a rat's ass @ about hobbyists.  I have seen nothing that indicates this; AAMOFB I saw the exact opposite with Carlybaby's stupidities.  What makesA you think that the folklore that she established has disappeared? @ I'll guarantee you that is hasn't.  It takes about two years for< top management shit to trickle down to the people who do the
 real work.  > The only people who do care passionately are those who did the< real work; if you haven't noticed Carlybaby was shipping the	 work out.   A > ..  If there are multiple attempts to "irritate" HP with public E >download sites, and then the real Hobbyist people come to HP and say F >"look, you know and I know that there is a need for this, I propose aG >controlled fahsion to distribute media only to hobbyists, etc etc this ) >may push HP to make a positive decision.   ; You've missed a very important step.  You hobbyists need to < train HP (who has an inkjet mentality) that OS management is= prestigious and a completely foolproof method of distributing 	 goodwill.    > E >HP would definitely object if the hobbyist programme's PAK generator C >were to become public. But they don't object to it being used in a # >controlled fashion like it is now.   < They don't object because it doesn't cost them any money and8 probably doesn't cross the corporate table in a meeting. > D >I think that it should be possible to use the same logic with mediaG >distribution. If it is done in a controlled manner, it should mitigate F >the fears HP might have of loss of revenus since it would be accessed >only by hobbyists.  > I >And one could have a web page forcing the user to agree to terms such as 5 >redistribution or making kits publically available     C This costs money.  You've just spec'ed out a reason to chop a minor  expenditure.    >  > F >The question really is: how do we seize on this event to signal to HPG >that it should agree to some controlled downloads ?  I've been told by @ >the bobbysist folks in texas that technology is not a problem.   E I told you how up^there.  My assumption is that HP may still remember " that goodwill is a valuable asset. > G >It is clear to me that the hobbysts folks have tried and may have made G >some headway, but clearly, after years, it hasn't move enough. Perhaps G >there needs to be a push from users to get HP to start moving on this.   @ If you make it a corporate level problem, it will be solved withB a corporate level sledge hammer.  This action has already shuffled? the problem into the lawyer's domain.  This is not, ever, a way D to get anything done.  (I don't think this has changed in business.)   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 26 Jun 05 08:13:57 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <q_qdnUoX-PIMHyPfRVn-1Q@rcn.net>  ? In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-WBFZt5lcNBJR@dave2_os2.home.ours>, 6    "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> wrote:# >On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:26:59 UTC,  = >koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  > I >> In article <d9hklm$gh$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, m.kraemer@gsi.de   (Michael Kraemer) writes:  >> >  4 >> > In which way do I "steal" IP from HP this way ?= >> > I buy used equipment from somebody how as bought it from D >> > somebody else who has paid money to HP for the fresh equipment.3 >> > If I buy a used car, do I "steal" it from GM ?  >>  I >>    The same way you steal from Stevie Wonder when you give away copies H >>    of his music.  HP gets money for copies of the software and you're) >>    allowing people to get it for free.  >>  F >>    So HP has to pay people for making the software, but doesn't get& >>    income to cover those paychecks. > G >While I don't disagree with the dissent about having this _VAX_ stuff  E >being put up as warez , particularly how it could be used to damage  G >the hobbyist program, My own first thought was 'that's not wise'. OTOH G >I seriously question the size of the market for the products being put G >up and thus the putative loss of income for HP. The word nil comes to   >mind.  < Think outside the box.  I haven't been in the biz for almost6 20 years and have not kept up with the laws, but I can1 think of several.  I'd rather not bare them here.    /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 26 Jun 05 08:18:39 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <q_qdnUUX-PI2HiPfRVn-1Q@rcn.net>  7 In article <Xns967FE7AC9ACC1dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>, (    "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:) >%NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Bill Gunshannon wrote in $ >news:3i37lcFj8admU1@individual.net  > : >> In article <Xns967FDFA4867B3dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>,. >>      "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> writes: > H >>> Push comes to shove if HP decides to take OpenVMS off the market, atG >>> the moment that doesn't seem likely.  If it happens, I'll review my B >>> position on the distribution of material which others hold the >>> copyright on.  >>  B >> Why?  How does their taking it off the market in any way affectB >> their ownership of it?  It is their property to do with as theyB >> wish.  If they wish to see it end, then so be it.  It would notB >> be the first OS to suffer such a fate and probably won't be the >> last. > E >Bill, you're right.  And I'm not thinking straight.  I'm letting my  D >desire to see VMS live on conflict with the reality of who owns it.  1 Good.  I understand perfectly how you're feeling.  > K >What I'm expressing is a desire to see the good bits of VMS get publicity  = >and uptake, but I don't really want to see an OS replace it.   = It's not the replacing that is at risk; it's worse.  It's the 7 complete irradication of all that accumulated knowledge ? and experience that the OS holds.  AFAICT, it's the last useful < OS in the world that doesn't require user mode wrestling for anybody to get their work done.    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 26 Jun 05 08:24:03 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <q_qdnUQX-PJzGSPfRVn-1Q@rcn.net>  , In article <42BC7320.98FA19FC@teksavvy.com>,1    JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:  >"Doc." wrote:K >> Push comes to shove if HP decides to take OpenVMS off the market, at the K >> moment that doesn't seem likely.  If it happens, I'll review my position F >> on the distribution of material which others hold the copyright on. >  > E >Technically, with HP breaking its promise to have VAX-VMS 8.2, it is G >essentially the admission that it is no longer producing VAX software, B >and no longer selling VAX hardware.  So would distribution of VAXD >software be any harm to HP since none of the VAX customers would be+ >getting anything they don't already have ?  > B >In terms of Alpha, this is a bit touchy since there is still someI >developmeht of VMS on Alpha. However, the 5 year mark since June 25 2001 F >comes next year. After which, HP could stop producing Alpha software,I >especially if it stops Alpha systems sales before that. And at that time H >distribution of Alpha media shouldn't deprive HP of any revenus at all.  D You're being an idiot (I'm saying this word with kindness).  You are> talking about DEC work.  DEC tied its software very closely toF the hardware.  You cannot easily split VMS up w.r.t. CPU architecture.= This is because the OS developers used VAX code whenever they @ could.  That's how we worked.  We did not like, and had no time,. to retest, redebug code that already worked.    < Now, I did not do any work on the VAX nor Alpha nor VMS, but9 JMF did.  And he would have never rewritten VAX code when 0 doing the Alpha work if he could simply call it.     > E >And with customers not wishing to go IA64, the second HP drops alpha F >system sales and/or software development, it will drive the remainingF >customer base to stop adding anything to their VMS infrastructure and, >build on Sun, Dell, IBM, or Lenovo systems.   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 26 Jun 05 08:28:45 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <q_qdnUcX-PKVGyPfRVn-1Q@rcn.net>  0 In article <11bpqr7eeabv01d@corp.supernews.com>,+    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  >JF Mezei wrote: >> Opcom wrote:  >>  C >>>There is a VMS dist. for VAX and Alpha hobbyists, or used to be, B >>>which could be bought from Montagar Software. This was even one= >>>of the answers given by to a hobbyist by "ask the wizard".  >>   >>  D >> The CD which you can buy at a very reasonable price from the finsE >> Montagar folks doesn't contains half of the software the hobbyists K >> programme entitles on to.  There is a real need to provide access to the & >> real CDs to download specific kits. >>  G >> As such, there is a need to talk to HP about methods to control such H >> downloads and limit it to hobbyists so that we get access to the kits: >> and HO is comfortable that such sustem won't be abused. >>  I >> There are plenty of us willing to offer hosting/bandwidth to help with I >> the distribution.  And from what I have been told, this issue has been K >> on the back burner for years, and perhaps it is time to push it forwards  >> and get it done.  >  >Not speaking for HP.  > I >I believe the issues involve some licensed technology that has been put  E >into parts of VMS.  That's why some layered products are NOT in the   >hobbyist program. > I >I'd think that if there weren't such obsticles, along with the legality  J >of some of the software making it to some countries, that there would be $ >an official site hosting downloads. > A >As has been mentioned, much of this stuff can be found, but the  , >availability isn't broadcast to the public.  > Well, there may unsolvable technical problems, too.  Once upon; a time, in the bad ol' days, there one, and only one, woman ; who could create the paperwork that would "distribute" this 7 software so that the recipient of that package would be ; able to install it.  But that was internal order processing < infrastructure and may have nothing to do these difficulties8 you guys are talking about.  But it sure smells like the! same problem in a new medium. :-)    /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:09:53 -0400 . From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download- Message-ID: <42BEE160.D5DDBD0C@vaxination.ca>    jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:? > Sigh!  You are making an assumption that HP gives a rat's ass = > about hobbyists.  I have seen nothing that indicates this;    G The problem is that HP *may* be making the assumption that the hobbyist B CD contains all of the SPL and thus the hobbyist programme is 100%C comprehensive. That is not the case, the hobbyist CD is only a very F small subset of what the hobbyist programme allows. And this is why itF is important for us, the hobbyists to tell HP that there is a need for this to improve.  B Consider that one of the persons deeply involved with the hobbyistH programme wrote something here a few days ago indicating he thought that- the CD contained all the software you needed.   H But I also know that another person involved with the hobbyist programmeH knows about the need to have the full SPL available.  But since this hasA been going on for a few years with very very slow progress, there 4 perhaps needs to be a catalyst to get things moving.    G If that "warez" story gets to HP, HP may start to be asking question on G why hobbysts would be doing this, at which point the hobbyist folks can G step in with "remember, we'Mve been trelling you for years that we need 7 to make distribution of media possible to hobbyists ?".     = > You've missed a very important step.  You hobbyists need to > > train HP (who has an inkjet mentality) that OS management is? > prestigious and a completely foolproof method of distributing  > goodwill.   F My gut tells me that the hobbyist programme is not "HP" but simply VMSH management and doesn't really go any higher. It is discretionary at that6 level and HP corporate probably doesn't know about it.  K > >And one could have a web page forcing the user to agree to terms such as 5 > >redistribution or making kits publically available  > E > This costs money.  You've just spec'ed out a reason to chop a minor  > expenditure.    E You don't understand. The hobbysist programme is run by the very kind C folks at Montagar who are volunteers in the true DECUS sense of the 9 word. But in order for them to do this, they had to setup B checks/controls which met VMS management approval. (such as yearly@ renewall, requires a decus membership number checked against the country's DECUS group etc etc).   D If you want to expand this to provide downloadable kits, you need toC show HP that you can have similar controls which will meet with VMS  management approval.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.355 ************************