1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 27 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 357       Contents: Re: corrupt PCSI database? Re: corrupt PCSI database? Re: corrupt PCSI database?! Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP ! Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP ! Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP  Re: HTML to text Re: HTML to text Monitoring IP traffic  Re: Monitoring IP traffic  Re: Monitoring IP traffic  Re: Monitoring IP traffic  Re: Monitoring IP traffic  Re: Monitoring IP traffic + Re: Need to export All-In-One files to a PC + Re: Need to export All-In-One files to a PC  Re: OpenVMS and XML questions  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program - Re: Problem booting VMS CD on Alpha PWS 500au / Re: Problem with spam filtering in Mozilla/CSWB  Re: Revival of Alpha? 
 Re: SAN & DFU  Re: State of the art? " Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report" Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report" Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report" Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download   Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe( Re: What Terminal Servers are you using?, write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:14:24 GMT " From: Lee <lytmah@telusplanet.net># Subject: Re: corrupt PCSI database? + Message-ID: <4PMve.60830$wr.20012@clgrps12>    Chip Coldwell wrote: > ) > I think I have a corrupt PCSI database:  >  > $ product list *7 > %PCSIUI-I-NOMATCH, no products were found matching: * M > %PCSIUI-E-NOPROD, no products were found on which to perform this operation F > %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error  > condition  > D > and I know I've installed lots of layered products using "PRODUCT J > INSTALL".  Is there any hope of rebuilding the database?  Which file[s]  > is it stored in? >  > Chip >   9 It's not corrupt.  You get this error because you have no $ PCSI files in your current location.   E.g.,    $ DIR *.PCSI! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found  $ PRODUCT LIST *5 %PCSIUI-I-NOMATCH, no products were found matching: * K %PCSIUI-E-NOPROD, no products were found on which to perform this operation D %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error 	 condition    $ SET DEF HOME   $ DIR *.PCSI   Directory DSA123:[HOME]   ! DEC-AXPVMS-SHC-V0203-289-1.PCSI;1    Total of 1 file.! L _DSA123:[HOME] $ PRODUCT LIST *   ( The following product has been selected:8      DEC AXPVMS ABCD V1.2                Layered Product   ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:42:21 +1000 6 From: "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au># Subject: Re: corrupt PCSI database? X Message-ID: <8BAD914A0B8CA84C9E94187103A1AB9E05BE50@EX-TG2-PR.corporate.transgrid.local>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57AF4.D325DD62 . Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     " One of the respondents came close,   $product show history   1 list gives you what is in the current .PCSI file.    Regards, Paddy   -----Original Message-----) From: Lee [mailto:lytmah@telusplanet.net]  Sent: Mon 6/27/2005 4:14 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com # Subject: Re: corrupt PCSI database?  =20  Chip Coldwell wrote: >=20) > I think I have a corrupt PCSI database:  >=20 > $ product list *7 > %PCSIUI-I-NOMATCH, no products were found matching: * L > %PCSIUI-E-NOPROD, no products were found on which to perform this operati= onH > %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error=20 > condition  >=20F > and I know I've installed lots of layered products using "PRODUCT=20J > INSTALL".  Is there any hope of rebuilding the database?  Which file[s]=  > is it stored in?  >=20 > Chip >=20  9 It's not corrupt.  You get this error because you have no $ PCSI files in your current location.   E.g.,    $ DIR *.PCSI! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found  $ PRODUCT LIST *5 %PCSIUI-I-NOMATCH, no products were found matching: * K %PCSIUI-E-NOPROD, no products were found on which to perform this operation F %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error=20	 condition    $ SET DEF HOME   $ DIR *.PCSI   Directory DSA123:[HOME]   ! DEC-AXPVMS-SHC-V0203-289-1.PCSI;1    Total of 1 file.! L _DSA123:[HOME] $ PRODUCT LIST *   ( The following product has been selected:8      DEC AXPVMS ABCD V1.2                Layered Product   ...       G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged @ and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20D addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of=20C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise D the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=207 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   C If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 C immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 ? individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************     ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57AF4.D325DD62 - Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">  <HTML> <HEAD>L <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> K <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7226.0"> ) <TITLE>Re: corrupt PCSI database?</TITLE>  </HEAD>  <BODY>) <!-- Converted from text/plain format -->  <BR>  8 <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>One of the respondents came close,<BR> <BR> $product show history<BR>  <BR>5 list gives you what is in the current .PCSI file.<BR>  <BR> Regards, Paddy<BR> <BR> -----Original Message-----<BR>L From: Lee [<A HREF=3D"mailto:lytmah@telusplanet.net">mailto:lytmah@teluspla= net.net</A>]<BR> Sent: Mon 6/27/2005 4:14 PM<BR>  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com<BR> ' Subject: Re: corrupt PCSI database?<BR>  <BR> Chip Coldwell wrote:<BR> &gt;<BR>0 &gt; I think I have a corrupt PCSI database:<BR> &gt;<BR> &gt; $ product list *<BR> > &gt; %PCSIUI-I-NOMATCH, no products were found matching: *<BR>L &gt; %PCSIUI-E-NOPROD, no products were found on which to perform this oper=	 ation<BR> L &gt; %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error<BR> &gt; condition<BR> &gt;<BR>L &gt; and I know I've installed lots of layered products using &quot;PRODUCT= <BR>L &gt; INSTALL&quot;.&nbsp; Is there any hope of rebuilding the database?&nbs= p; Which file[s]<BR> &gt; is it stored in?<BR>  &gt;<BR>
 &gt; Chip<BR>  &gt;<BR> <BR>B It's not corrupt.&nbsp; You get this error because you have no<BR>( PCSI files in your current location.<BR> <BR>	 E.g.,<BR>  <BR> $ DIR *.PCSI<BR>% %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found<BR>  $ PRODUCT LIST *<BR>9 %PCSIUI-I-NOMATCH, no products were found matching: *<BR> L %PCSIUI-E-NOPROD, no products were found on which to perform this operation= <BR>G %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error<BR> 
 condition<BR>  <BR> $ SET DEF HOME<BR> <BR> $ DIR *.PCSI<BR> <BR> Directory DSA123:[HOME]<BR>  <BR>% DEC-AXPVMS-SHC-V0203-289-1.PCSI;1<BR>  <BR> Total of 1 file.<BR>% L _DSA123:[HOME] $ PRODUCT LIST *<BR>  <BR>, The following product has been selected:<BR>L &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DEC AXPVMS ABCD V1.2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=L &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Layered Produc= t<BR>  &nbsp; ...<BR> <BR> </FONT>  </P>   <FONT SIZE=3D3><BR>  <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  <BR>G "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged<BR> B and confidential information intended only for the use of the <BR>F addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of <BR>G this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise<BR> F the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, <BR>; distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.<BR>  <BR>E If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid <BR> E immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the <BR> A individual sender except where the sender expressly and with <BR> G authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses<BR> B virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses<BR>  contained in any attachment.<BR> <BR>@ Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now<BR>( firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"<BR> <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  </FONT>  </BODY>  </HTML> ) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57AF4.D325DD62--    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:11:28 GMT 3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) # Subject: Re: corrupt PCSI database? 1 Message-ID: <4WSve.7665$ny3.171@news.cpqcorp.net>   o In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506260828050.19968@frank.harvard.edu>, Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam> writes:  > ( >I think I have a corrupt PCSI database: >  >$ product list * 6 >%PCSIUI-I-NOMATCH, no products were found matching: *L >%PCSIUI-E-NOPROD, no products were found on which to perform this operationN >%PCSIUI-E-ABORT, operation terminated due to an unrecoverable error condition > C >and I know I've installed lots of layered products using "PRODUCT   >INSTALL". ...  M If thare no PCSI kits in your current default directory (Use $PRODUCT FIND *  4 to confirm this.) then this is expected behaviour.    C I strongly suspect your problem is that you are using $PRODUCT LIST + but you really want $PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT.    = Please see $HELP PRODUCT LIST and $HELP PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT.    --  J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 07:28:48 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) * Subject: Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP3 Message-ID: <vPQa8CK+f8eY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   l In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506241757320.1028@localhost.localdomain>, Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes: > H > We have COPY/FTP and DIRECTORY/FTP, which Hoff keeps recommending.  I  > have been using them a lot.  > / > Could we also have DELETE/FTP and RENAME/FTP?       create/directory/ftp ?    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 07:32:14 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) * Subject: Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP3 Message-ID: <GpI2kwnTps5A@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <42BCBE67.38020DAD@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > Rob Brown wrote: >>  H >> We have COPY/FTP and DIRECTORY/FTP, which Hoff keeps recommending.  I >> have been using them a lot. >>  0 >> Could we also have DELETE/FTP and RENAME/FTP? >>   >> Just a thought .... > F > To speak the plain truth, what we *REALLY* need is a FAL service forE > TCP/IP and changes to the underlying infrastructure to handle that.  >  > TCPIP$FAL anyone?   F    FAL is capable of things which FTP is not.  FAL can open a file andG    change its contents remotely, FTP can only transfer the whole thing. B    To get those capabilities TCPIP$FAL would have to be NFS based.  G    We have lots of systems which allow FTP or sftp access, but not NFS.   F    Both DEC and ISO put forth extensions to RFCs to allow this sort ofE    thing, but you won't find them implimented on very many platforms.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:05:26 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> * Subject: Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTPE Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506271004540.30421@localhost.localdomain>   ' On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Bob Koehler wrote:   n > In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506241757320.1028@localhost.localdomain>, Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes: >>0 >> Could we also have DELETE/FTP and RENAME/FTP? >  >   create/directory/ftp ?   I like that one too.     --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 07:42:27 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: HTML to text 3 Message-ID: <Tat+GX4Z5+CB@eisner.encompasserve.org>   N In article <mFJve.10190$dY1.7427@trnddc06>, John Santos <john@egh.com> writes: > Scott wrote:B >> Keith's answer is a lot better.  But in the olden days we would* >> probably have done something like this: >>   >> $ EDIT/TECO INFILE.HTML* >> <N<$; -1D !LOOP! 0A-62"N D OLOOP$' D>$$ >>  / >> I sure hope TECO has been ported to Itanium!  > B > It's on the test drive cluster.  I had a lot of problems with it? > during field test, and ended up logging a second session into ? > the Alpha, and doing all my editing there.  However, during a G > small amount of testing under V8.2 (Itanium), it seemed to work fine.  >  > ex$$  I    Is this an OEST'ed VEST'ed image, or was TECO finally made native for  =    Alpha?  The last I heard about TECO on Alpha it was a real     challenge for VEST.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:04:14 +0100 - From: John A Fotheringham <jafsoft@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: HTML to text 8 Message-ID: <f3c0c1l0ep165dvcjquif6b43mjbhohr78@4ax.com>   > ! >http://www.jafsoft.com/detagger/    :-)   9 As the author of this particular utility I should perhaps 4 point out that Detagger (like all my converters) is B written (and debugged) as a command line utility under OpenVMS and; then "ported" to Windows etc, even though I don't make them % commercially available under OpenVMS.   4  	(AscToHTM is in fact offered free or charge under + 	 OpenVMS, but that does text-to-html, not   	 html-to-text :-)  < If you (or anyone else) is interested in a VMS version, drop; me a note at info@jafsoft.com  (I don't read comp.os.vms on ; a regular basis).  If there's enough demand I'll try to get > a regular distribution sorted, although I have limited OpenVMS! build environments (e.g. no Vax).    Cheers, Jaf    --  - HTML-to-text and markup removal with Detagger   http://www.jafsoft.com/detagger/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:23:18 +1000 # From: "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate>  Subject: Monitoring IP traffic- Message-ID: <42bfa96d@duster.adelaide.on.net>    Hi All  G System activity can be monitored in real time using monitor - is there  I something similar for IP traffic using VMS7.3-1?  I would like something  F like monitor/system so that I could see traffic in/out, queue length, M resource usage etc.  Can't find it in help monitor or tcpip help - perhaps I   just missed it!    Thanks.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:45:34 -0400 + From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> " Subject: Re: Monitoring IP trafficA Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050627053505.02bd7658@mail.patmedia.net>   % At 03:23 AM 6/27/2005, Gremlin wrote:  >Hi All  > G >System activity can be monitored in real time using monitor - is there I >something similar for IP traffic using VMS7.3-1?  I would like something F >like monitor/system so that I could see traffic in/out, queue length,M >resource usage etc.  Can't find it in help monitor or tcpip help - perhaps I  >just missed it!  C Look for the T4 product. The latest version can be downloaded from  F <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/t4/index.html>. This area @ has more information about the product. Be forewarned that this D product can collect A LOT of information and the data files can get @ very large very quickly. Also, the only viewer/analyzer that is ' currently supplied runs on Windows. :-(   F In my last job, I was working on a PHP based tool (using the supplied D CSVPNG image) which could run on VMS using the HP Apache web server K (SWS). I didn't complete it before the job ended and the code stayed there.   F CSVPNG will read the  CSV files generated by T4 and create PNG graphs & based on different selection criteria.  
 Ken Robinson     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:56:51 +1000 # From: "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate> " Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic- Message-ID: <42bfdba1@duster.adelaide.on.net>    Hi Ken  L Thanks for the reply, I was actually hoping for something in real time as I H am trying to determine server load issues - nothing wrong in VMS or the 8 server application, so now looking into the IP stack....   TIA   9 "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> wrote in message  ; news:6.2.3.4.2.20050627053505.02bd7658@mail.patmedia.net... ' > At 03:23 AM 6/27/2005, Gremlin wrote:  >>Hi All >>H >>System activity can be monitored in real time using monitor - is thereJ >>something similar for IP traffic using VMS7.3-1?  I would like somethingG >>like monitor/system so that I could see traffic in/out, queue length, M >>resource usage etc.  Can't find it in help monitor or tcpip help - perhaps   >>I  >>just missed it!  > E > Look for the T4 product. The latest version can be downloaded from  L > <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/t4/index.html>. This area has J > more information about the product. Be forewarned that this product can J > collect A LOT of information and the data files can get very large very M > quickly. Also, the only viewer/analyzer that is currently supplied runs on   > Windows. :-( > H > In my last job, I was working on a PHP based tool (using the supplied M > CSVPNG image) which could run on VMS using the HP Apache web server (SWS).  F > I didn't complete it before the job ended and the code stayed there. > H > CSVPNG will read the  CSV files generated by T4 and create PNG graphs ( > based on different selection criteria. >  > Ken Robinson     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:47:01 +0000 - From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> " Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic* Message-ID: <42BFE735.9060506@bigpond.com>   Gremlin was overheard to say:  > Hi Ken > N > Thanks for the reply, I was actually hoping for something in real time as I J > am trying to determine server load issues - nothing wrong in VMS or the : > server application, so now looking into the IP stack.... >  > TIA   @ Not sure how useful you will find them but, at the address below? there is a package called DBS-NETUTILS which includes a program @ called FRAME_COUNTER which will gather information about packets@ of various sizes.  It is meant to be used interactively since to@ see the stats you have to control-c it, after which you can zeroA the counters and start again or continue (or exit).  You can have D it only select a certain protocol.  It also displays packets/second.= There is another program called PROTOCOL_COUNTER which does a > similar thing but for counts by protocol.  Again, it should be used interactively. < You could use them as the basis for something more suited to your needs.    Regards, Dave.  --  D David B Sneddon (dbs)  VMS Systems Programmer  dbsneddon@bigpond.comD Sneddo's quick guide ...     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/D DBS freeware     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:15:23 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> " Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic( Message-ID: <opss05rxuozgicya@hyrrokkin>  5 On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:47:01 +0000, David B Sneddon    <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> wrote:   > Gremlin was overheard to say: 	 >> Hi Ken L >>  Thanks for the reply, I was actually hoping for something in real time  J >> as I am trying to determine server load issues - nothing wrong in VMS  B >> or the server application, so now looking into the IP stack.... >>  TIA  > B > Not sure how useful you will find them but, at the address belowA > there is a package called DBS-NETUTILS which includes a program B > called FRAME_COUNTER which will gather information about packetsB > of various sizes.  It is meant to be used interactively since toB > see the stats you have to control-c it, after which you can zeroC > the counters and start again or continue (or exit).  You can have F > it only select a certain protocol.  It also displays packets/second.? > There is another program called PROTOCOL_COUNTER which does a @ > similar thing but for counts by protocol.  Again, it should be > used interactively. > > You could use them as the basis for something more suited to
 > your needs.  > 
 > Regards, > Dave.   J Another possibility, if the systems are on a lan behind a router, would beK to log into the router and monitor the IP traffic there.  I know this works  on Cisco routers.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:50:17 -0700 # From: Joe Bloggs <JBloggs@acme.com> " Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic8 Message-ID: <um00c1pt5iv9vo2d5ijkqushrblfc7gaag@4ax.com>  A On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:23:18 +1000, "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate>  wrote:   >Hi All H >System activity can be monitored in real time using monitor - is there J >something similar for IP traffic using VMS7.3-1?  I would like something G >like monitor/system so that I could see traffic in/out, queue length,  N >resource usage etc.  Can't find it in help monitor or tcpip help - perhaps I  >just missed it! > 	 >Thanks.     you might have a look at  5 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/probe.zip   / or perhaps the  V4 Freeware CD(s) for the same.        PROBE, UTILITIES, > Alpha & VAX Ethernet monitor / statistics / capture / playback  > Probe is a network monitoring tool which allows the real-time > capture and/or graphical display of Ethernet traffic activity E and the tabular formatting of previously collected frame and/or data.     The main features are:   D  o  Extensive user-specified attributes allow fine-grained filtering> and enhanced presentation of raw or computed traffic data. Key% attributesare dynamically modifiable.   B  o  Sampling can be performed unattended (in batch for example) by> setting a cycle of alternating collection and sleep intervals.( Statistics are produced for every cycle.  <  o  Automatic and static symbolic representation of Ethernet
 addresses.   C  o  Optional (complete or partial) frame data capture and playback.   1  o  Automatic line counters (collision) tracking.   ;  o  Runs on both VAX and Alpha/AXP. Heavily speed-optimized 3 high-priority multi-process MACRO32 user-mode code  A (assembled on VAX, compiled on AXP) for capture/display. Playback  program in VAXC.  C  Please consult the files AAREADME.* and the help documentation for  details.    Complete source code included.   ?  Provided executables linked on VAX/VMS 5.5-2 and Alpha/VMS 6.2   F  This is release 2.3B. Check Internet sites FTP.WKU.EDU or FTP.SPC.EDUF  (or other VMS archives) for eventual newer versions of this software.  O ===============================================================================     THE AUTHOR                            E  Comments, suggestions, questions and/or potential code-modifications  can be  directed to the author:    Stephane Germain   /  via E-Mail at:  germain @ eisner . decus . org   <  (Support and development on a "time-permitting" basis only)  O ===============================================================================     COPYRIGHT NOTICE   E  This software is COPYRIGHT  1989-1997, Stephane Germain. ALL RIGHTS 	 RESERVED. F  Permission is granted for not-for-profit redistribution, provided all sourceE  and object code remain unchanged from the original distribution, and  that all!  copyright notices remain intact.     DISCLAIMER   7  This software is provided "AS IS". The author makes no  representations orF  warranties with respect to the software and specifically disclaim any implied E  warranties of merchantability or fitness for any particular purpose.   O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 02:52:29 -0700 From: jtpryan@gmail.com 4 Subject: Re: Need to export All-In-One files to a PCC Message-ID: <1119865949.467899.249700@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   G Yes, I could make the diskettes.  You could email me a .zip at my gmail ' account.  Its jtpryan at gmail dot com.    Jim    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:57:57 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 4 Subject: Re: Need to export All-In-One files to a PC, Message-ID: <42BFF7D4.134C6709@teksavvy.com>   jtpryan@gmail.com wrote: > I > Yes, I could make the diskettes.  You could email me a .zip at my gmail ) > account.  Its jtpryan at gmail dot com.     H Are you sure you will be able to use it ?  You need to create a documentF pointing to the .wpl file, indicate it is a wpplus file. Then you needD to use the converters to create a new document in the format of yourD choice, then you need to export that document to a known DOS/WindowsH file, and then delete the teamlinks documents. If you have 5000 of them,  that will take a very long time.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:11:38 +0000 (UTC) . From: klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)& Subject: Re: OpenVMS and XML questions. Message-ID: <d9p1eq$m3c$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  s "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes in article <opssp73vy0zgicya@hyrrokkin> dated Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:32:09 -0700: F >On 21 Jun 2005 08:11:45 -0700, tadamsmar <tadamsmar@yahoo.com> wrote:A >FWIW, IBM's PL/I compiler for Windows, has a builtin XML parser.    That's interesting.     I PL/I is my language choice for constructing XML on VMS, because you don't K have to escape the " in character strings and the concatenation operator is D easily accessible.  I wrote some C support routines to avoid the 32K character limit...  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:42:32 +0200 Q From: "Jimmi Aakjr (8310)" <bitnissen#SPAMMER_FORMAT_YOUR_HARDDISK#@hotmail.com> " Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program8 Message-ID: <cq6vb1588d455631mu7c0juh9b8bvkv30b@4ax.com>  / >Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable? 
 Yes very much & >How do you use your Hobbyist license?  For some programming and testing > E >Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that? D I renew it from the Montagar website. Maybee you will need to change? the way you check the Decus membership-id to get a license - in B Denmark Decus are dead and newbies can't get a Decus membership-id >Do you get the CD's? A Yes if the version on them are newer than the ones i already have  > C >Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobby G >costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to 
 >put them. > ) Put the CD's on the internet for download   ! >What type of machine do you use?  Digital PWS 500a   Microvax 3100-80   > H >The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity@ >how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity? > ; I have no plan for buying a Integrity server at the moment.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:31:16 +0200  From: S <soterroatyahoodotcom>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program& Message-ID: <42bfb94b$1@news1.ethz.ch>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:0 > Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable?  I For sure, I wouldn't feel that safe running the company licenses at home  : (although I'd do that if no hobbyist licenses were around)  ' > How do you use your Hobbyist license?   H Playing at home with things I can't do at work, like gcc and Oracle for E my own ideas. Plus home use like browsing and irc-ing and such, even  H document editing (thanks Mozilla). Nothing that wouldn't run on a Unix, % however I like having VMS underneath.   F > Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that?  + Emails and stuff, when I remember doing it.    > Do you get the CD's?  D I use the ones from work. They are newer, so why bother getting the 	 others...   D > Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobbyH > costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to > put them.   E Now getting the latest versions in time would be a big step forward.  E Even when it's not really a reliability issue, at least it makes you   feel way better.E And yeah, _downloading_ the stuff would be really good. Even when HP  F loses some 35$/kit, the 35k it probably makes a year don't justify at : all the hassle of ordering and getting something outdated.  " > What type of machine do you use?  C A 4-way AS 2100 with some RAIDS is pumping my electricity bill and  G scaring the rats out of the cellar. However I'm looking into replacing  @ it with a PWS of some kind. Although the kid would love to play G hide'n'seek inside it I won't keep them both - I'm no collector so the  * AS will have soon to look for a good home.  I > The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity A > how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?   F Whenever Integrity will be cheaper on ebay and such, so not very soon  I'm afraid.    S    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 06:27:29 -0500B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program3 Message-ID: <6A4d+Pa5wwiS@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <1119740832.130195.64800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com writes: > H > I have a few questions for this newsgroup.  You can reply here or send5 > me mail either to my hotmail account or my hp mail.  > 0 > Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable? >   I I've found it very useful over the years, but sadly I'm using it far less J these days because my current hobbyist projects are robotics (and related)L based. I'm using a Linux system for development and control station purposesJ because of a lack of suitable software and hardware for VMS - when was theM last time that you could power up a VMS laptop in the middle of a field ? :-)   K [And yes, I know that someone produced a VMS laptop. I am also aware of the H price that it was sold for and the fact that it is no longer available.]  ' > How do you use your Hobbyist license?  >   M When I use it, as a development/control environment for my hobbyist projects.   F > Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that?  4 I use the associate membership provided by DECUS US.   > Do you get the CD's? >   2 With the permission of my boss, I use my work CDs.  D > Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobbyH > costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to > put them.  >   K It would be nice to be able to download the kits from a HP approved source. H However, I am seriously concerned that the chap who is offering VAX kitsJ for download may seriously damage the Hobbyist Program for the rest of us.  H It would be nice if someone from VMS engineering within HP could have anH informal word with him and tell him to stop doing this before someone at? HP not associated with VMS finds out and causes a big backlash.   " > What type of machine do you use? >    A low end Alphastation.   I > The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity A > how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?  >   H I have exactly zero plans to use Integrity either at work or home in the near future.   >  > Thanks for your time.  >  > Sue  >    Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       7 Microsoft: The Standard Oil Company of the 21st century    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:22:42 -0500 * From: Brian Wheeler <bdwheele@indiana.edu>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program3 Message-ID: <d9ouj3$of4$1@rainier.uits.indiana.edu>   " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:0 > Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable? >   
 Yes, Very.  ' > How do you use your Hobbyist license?  >   K Transferring old data from tapes and keeping up-to-date with my VMS skills.   F > Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that?   Montagar website   > Do you get the CD's? >   E I bought a CD when the program first started for VAX, I borrowed the  % alpha os disks from someone on campus     D > Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobbyH > costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to > put them.  >     I Download of software, including core os images.  Since the VMS community  E has pretty much dried up here on campus its hard to find any layered   product disks.    " > What type of machine do you use? >    Alpha PWS500au, 1000A $ MicroVAX 3100/90, VAXstation 4000/90 SimH  I > The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity A > how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?  >   " Investigation of VMS as a platform  
 Brian Wheeler    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:05:47 +1200 1 From: Tux Wonder-Dog <wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> " Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program# Message-ID: <42c006fa@clear.net.nz>   " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:   > Dear Newsgroup,  > H > Talk to me about the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.  I really can't explain; > why I am asking, you just have to trust me in a good way.  > F > THE PROGRAM IS NOT AT RISK AT ALL I AM DOING PERSONAL RESEARCH - VMS* > Engineering is commited to this program. > F > I remember when we were at DECUS and Pat J. got up and asked the DECC > listens panel about the concept, there was a huge applause and it H > seemed like the right thing to do. I have to be honest and say all theE > friends of the DFW LUG knew what was coming and we were holding our F > breath. So the DFW LUG, Dave Cathy and John Wisniewski in particularH > took on the work of doing pretty much the whole program.  And now Dave( > alone.  Anyway I am making myself sad. > H > I have a few questions for this newsgroup.  You can reply here or send5 > me mail either to my hotmail account or my hp mail.  > 0 > Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable?  F Very much so.  It gives me an intro to a technical environment I would  otherwise not be able to access. > ' > How do you use your Hobbyist license?   J To learn how to set up and administer VMS; to understand a technical worldA quite different to my more usual Linux and MS Win9x environments.  > F > Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that?   Go to Montagar's.  > Do you get the CD's?  K I was given some unused CDs by a VMS sysadmin who had finished with them; I  can't afford to get new CDs. > D > Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobbyH > costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to > put them.   J What I would like to see is the source code for the old-and-all-but-buriedK VMSes, the early numbered editions, say 3.xx or 5.xx but no later, released H under a version of the MPL or CPL or suchlike.  (In other words, if it'sH too old for anyone to get "trade secrets" out of, it's ripe for a publicK license release - IMHO ;)  It'd also be a neat alternative to *BSD for code  jockeys and kernel hackers.   E A second wish - that reminders of the license get emailed to one from = Encompass/DECUS, with the option to update/renew by replying.  > " > What type of machine do you use?  I XT - no, only kidding ;) - SIMH on a Celeron under Linux.  I would love a I microVaX, but so far the only places where I might find a spare one - the B local Uni and the local computer-demolition shop - don't have any. > I > The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity A > how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?    With great delight.  >  >  > Thanks for your time.  >  > Sue   " Thanks for taking the time to ask.  
 Wesley Parish  --  O "Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was U lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I C get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she D fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.G Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:18:12 -0700 # From: Joe Bloggs <JBloggs@acme.com> 6 Subject: Re: Problem booting VMS CD on Alpha PWS 500au8 Message-ID: <2suvb15m7r8fc2ksc9fjkj8t7bghncf2ub@4ax.com>  B On 25 Jun 2005 10:02:06 -0700, "doub1eedge" <doub1eedge@yahoo.com> wrote:   >Hello,  > F >I'm trying to install VMS on an Alpha PWS 500au.  I've read that thisF >can be done provided the machine is configured properly, but I've yetE >to find exact details about this so I've giving it a run with what I  >have.  ; Another item to keep an eye on, is tha some of the earlier  A Miata mboards, had a DMA bug associated w/ using the 64bit slots. . (a combination of some cards, and some drivers  4 Google on "ALPHA MIATA DMA BUG" to find out more ...   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 08:24:05 -0700 From: jordan@ccs4vms.com8 Subject: Re: Problem with spam filtering in Mozilla/CSWBB Message-ID: <1119885845.449039.56900@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Dave, G      thank you most kindly; I'll try that tonight.  I didn't even think A about the panacea.dat file; it gets hit when CSWB starts, but not D apparently during a junk marking or unmarking operation (per the set watch anyway).  C      Too bad about the training, but perhaps its not a bad thing to : start fresh with current spam for the mill.  Thanks again.   Rich   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:22:23 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?1 Message-ID: <j4Tve.7666$I_.3390@news.cpqcorp.net>    prep@prep.synonet.com wrote:   >  > H > The Alpha IS a 4 level CPU. Well, 5 if you allow PALcode to be counted: > on its own. Look at the PSW and the TLB protection bits. >  >   # Which PSW?  Depends on the PALcode.   C Reading the Alpha SRM, Section II (OpenVMS Alpha PALcode), section   6.2.1, Processor Status:   "Bits 4-3   Current mode (CM) F              The access mode the current executing process as follows:              0 Kernel               1 Executive              2 Supervisor               3 User"  A Now, Alpha SRM, Section III (DIGITAL UNIX PALcode), section 5.2,   Processor Status:   D "The processor status (PS) is a four-bit register that contains the F current mode (PS<mode>) in bit <3> and a three-bit interrupt priority E level (PS<IPL>) in bits <2..0>.  The PS<mode> bit is zero for kernel   mode and one for user mode."    G As for the TLB protection bits... That is probably the place where you  E can imagine that most Alpha implementations actually put hardware in  I place for all 4-modes to get the best performance.  However, I don't see   any architectural requirement.   --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 00:20:13 -0700$ From: "alex" <info@it-technology.nl> Subject: Re: SAN & DFUC Message-ID: <1119856813.345183.326430@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Ken,   Thanks for your reply.F You are quite right, our intensions are to use DEFRAG in a VMS-clusterA environment and we are asking if its working in such environment.  Thanks.  Alex   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 09:12:02 -0700) From: "PowerGifts" <ellenbarth@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: State of the art?C Message-ID: <1119888722.199923.234250@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F Hello, all!  My company supplies the OpenVMS merchandise to HP.  SusanG Skonetski of HP asked me to respond to your request for OpenVMS branded G merchandise. We are a preferred HP supplier and will be happy to assist G you with OpenVMS merchandise or co-branded merchandise needs.  I can be  reached at ellen@powergifts.com  -- Ellen Barth Power Gifts        Stanley F. Quayle wrote:D > I ran across an interesting ad in an amateur radio magazine ("CQ")3 > from a company call SGC.  The picture looks like:  >  > 	<pix of device> > 	1985: State of the art. >  > 	<same pix, a little bigger> > 	1995: State of the art. >  > 	<same pix, even bigger> > 	2005: State of the art. >  > The text is: > % > History repeats itself.   <in bold> C > [...] was the industry breakthrough in 1985 and is still the gold  > standard today.  [...]' > Twenty years old, and still in style.  >  > D > HP should "borrow" this idea for the next VMS brochure.  Or even a > poster...  >  > --Stan Quayle  > Quayle Consulting Inc. >  > ----------/ > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363 5 > 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 2 > stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com+ > "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:55:22 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> + Subject: Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report 4 Message-ID: <42bf94cf$0$11733$636a15ce@news.free.fr>    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  K > Let me guess.  Infernalnet Exploiter running on Redmond-warez and you had L > to fellate Billzebub himself to get it to function.  Why can't HP crawl upL > out of that Micro$tench dung pit and realize there are other alternatives.   Good form today, VAXman, right?  :-)    D.* in Valbonne tomorrow morning... watch out!   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:56:01 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> + Subject: Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report 4 Message-ID: <42bf94f7$0$11733$636a15ce@news.free.fr>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:  B > At this point there are no plans to change plans for the OpenVMSI > Advanced Technical  boot camp for 2006, the next boot camp is scheduled I > for the week of May 22 starting Sunday at noon-ish ending on Friday the  > 27th around noon-ish.   $ What about my European suggestion??? :-(    D.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 06:29:40 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) + Subject: Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report 3 Message-ID: <5+itBAM5rXQJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <42bf94f7$0$11733$636a15ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> writes:$ > susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote: > C >> At this point there are no plans to change plans for the OpenVMS J >> Advanced Technical  boot camp for 2006, the next boot camp is scheduledJ >> for the week of May 22 starting Sunday at noon-ish ending on Friday the >> 27th around noon-ish. > & > What about my European suggestion??? > :-(   H Which European VMS Development Center has enough VMS developers to rivalG Spit Brook and provide the level of support without detracting from the @ ability for them to do their regular work when not in sessions ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:32:39 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG+ Subject: Re: Sue Skonetski Boot Camp Report 0 Message-ID: <00A45E9C.C534A983@SendSpamHere.ORG>  d In article <42bf94cf$0$11733$636a15ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> writes:! >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > L >> Let me guess.  Infernalnet Exploiter running on Redmond-warez and you hadM >> to fellate Billzebub himself to get it to function.  Why can't HP crawl up M >> out of that Micro$tench dung pit and realize there are other alternatives.  >   >Good form today, VAXman, right? >:-)  K Well I have to question the usefulness of statistics gathered with any such  bias to the sample space.   N As I see it, they want only the responses from those using Micro$oft's toys.  L This is skewing the real opinions of the bootcamp.  For example, those usingL Micro$oft's toys may find the bootcamp challenging since the only thing theyL typically have need to know is how to give the three-finger salute to their L Weendoze machines each day.  I too know how to salute the Micro$oft WeendozeD PeeCee whenever I see one; however, my salute is shy of two fingers.  L Funny thing...  I, and several others toting their Apple Powerbooks about atL this last bootcamp, seemed to have no problems whatsoever using the wirelessK network.  However, those toting the Weendoze infected laptop devices seemed L to have all sorts of issues.  How many Ad-Hoc networks called "bootcamp" didK I collect each day with Kis-MAC?  One morning during the keynote, Tom Moran K stood to address the crowd about configuring their PeeCees.  Just before he K stood up, I found 4 Ad-Hocs called "bootcamp".  By the end of his speech, I K found 14 more were started up.  Several PeeCee-ers could get on the network L but couldn't get the Micro$haft "shares" to work.  Funny that the PowerbooksC could join a Micro$oft (SMB) "share" and a Weendoze toys could not.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 27 Jun 05 07:38:22 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <W-CdnUCahLNZViLfRVn-jA@rcn.net>  - In article <42BEE160.D5DDBD0C@vaxination.ca>, 2    JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: @ >> Sigh!  You are making an assumption that HP gives a rat's ass> >> about hobbyists.  I have seen nothing that indicates this;  > H >The problem is that HP *may* be making the assumption that the hobbyistC >CD contains all of the SPL and thus the hobbyist programme is 100% D >comprehensive. That is not the case, the hobbyist CD is only a veryG >small subset of what the hobbyist programme allows. And this is why it G >is important for us, the hobbyists to tell HP that there is a need for  >this to improve.   ? And this costs money known as funding which gets extreeeemmeely 
 expensive. > C >Consider that one of the persons deeply involved with the hobbyist I >programme wrote something here a few days ago indicating he thought that . >the CD contained all the software you needed.  E That depends on what "needed" means.  To get a system up and running? D Probably.  To do all flavors of computing that VMS supports, I would be safe in guessing no.    > I >But I also know that another person involved with the hobbyist programme I >knows about the need to have the full SPL available.  But since this has B >been going on for a few years with very very slow progress, there5 >perhaps needs to be a catalyst to get things moving.   : The catalyst has been set to put everything back into the 7 corporate box.  What this idiot did will ensure that if  the problem gets to corporate. >  > H >If that "warez" story gets to HP, HP may start to be asking question onH >why hobbysts would be doing this, at which point the hobbyist folks canH >step in with "remember, we'Mve been trelling you for years that we need8 >to make distribution of media possible to hobbyists ?". >  > > >> You've missed a very important step.  You hobbyists need to? >> train HP (who has an inkjet mentality) that OS management is @ >> prestigious and a completely foolproof method of distributing >> goodwill. > G >My gut tells me that the hobbyist programme is not "HP" but simply VMS - >management and doesn't really go any higher.   = EXACTLY!!!  That's precisely where you, as a hobbyist, should  want to keep it.    > .. It is discretionary at that7 >level and HP corporate probably doesn't know about it.   : AFAICT, corporate doesn't even want to know about OSes and> all the work (a.k.a. funding) about keeping the infrastructureA for development, maintenance and packaging; this was the attitude > of Carlybaby who didn't give a shit about any of the personnel< she acquired with her buyout deals.  One would hope that her7 replacements will try to correct this.  Time will tell.    > J >> >And one could have a web page forcing the user to agree to terms such  as6 >> >redistribution or making kits publically available >>  F >> This costs money.  You've just spec'ed out a reason to chop a minor >> expenditure.  >  >  >You don't understand.    @ Perhaps, I don't understand.  I do know about how knowledge gets lost.   3 > ..The hobbysist programme is run by the very kind D >folks at Montagar who are volunteers in the true DECUS sense of the: >word. But in order for them to do this, they had to setupC >checks/controls which met VMS management approval. (such as yearly A >renewall, requires a decus membership number checked against the   >country's DECUS group etc etc). > E >If you want to expand this to provide downloadable kits, you need to D >show HP that you can have similar controls which will meet with VMS >management approval.   A It looks like there is a bug.  The dotcom generation has not been ? trained in the consequences of stealing.  Read some of the long = discussions on game newsgroups about this subject.  There are : a growing number of people who have absolutely no idea how  hard/software products are made.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:58:13 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download) Message-ID: <d9opkl$oqc$2@news.mdx.ac.uk>   Z In article <11bprv95c6e7t83@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >JF Mezei wrote: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>  E >>>HP, like any corporation, already employs more than enough lawyers  >>>to handle this. >>   >>  I >> How much would the legal, department charge VMS department for writing K >> of the letter ? Do you really think that HP as a corporation will notice J >> this ? In all likelyhood, some VMS employee would have seen the message% >> and told VMS management about it.   >>   >>  H >>>Isn't that like saying I'll just keep speeding and running stop signsH >>>till someone tells me to stop?  The law is quite clear.  And there is@ >>>no requirement for HP to be nice guys and just say, "Stop".   >>   >>   >>  I >> There is no requirement, you are correct. But consider that HP doesn't H >> see VMS as strategic, it doesn't advertise it, no longer sells VAXes,K >> and is soon to stop selling Alphas.  While HP have every right to pounce I >> on the nice chap, my guess is that they won't. They are too big a fish K >> to be bothered by some silly little bothersome VMS issue of distributing  >> software for dead products. >>   >>  F >> If the chap had been distributing proprietary EFI software for IA64G >> systems or proprietary Windows drivers, then it is likely they would I >> have sent a court "cease and desist" order before even sending a angry  >> lawyer's letter.  >>   >>  K >> And in terms of Digital-heritage management's protection of intellectual G >> property, do I need to remind you that Digital turned a blind eye on G >> Intel stealing Alpha IP for years and only brought the issue up only K >> once Palmer had runned out of ways to raise money and then went to Intel # >> to beg for some financial help ?  >>  H >> Need I remind you that digital heritage people donated a lot of VMS'sJ >> leading edge IP to Microsoft in exchange for the right to sell Windows,7 >> something Microsoft does to anyone who asks for it ?  >>  F >> And you're worried that HP would think this donloading of a few VMSO >> specific files that need a licence to be of any use is a huge problem ??????  > F >JF.  You keep ignoring the posts that refer to parts of the software < >coming from other sources, which require royalties be paid. > / >One poster also mentioned export restrictions.  > 4 >Ignoring these issues doesn't make them irrelavant. > I It does for this discussion since royalty products will not have had PAKS  issued to the hobbyists.  
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University       >-- 5 >David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450 5 >Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596 ? >DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com  >170 Grimplin Road >Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:55:07 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download) Message-ID: <d9oper$oqc$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   Z In article <11bpqr7eeabv01d@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >JF Mezei wrote: >> Opcom wrote:  >>  C >>>There is a VMS dist. for VAX and Alpha hobbyists, or used to be, B >>>which could be bought from Montagar Software. This was even one= >>>of the answers given by to a hobbyist by "ask the wizard".  >>   >>  D >> The CD which you can buy at a very reasonable price from the finsE >> Montagar folks doesn't contains half of the software the hobbyists K >> programme entitles on to.  There is a real need to provide access to the & >> real CDs to download specific kits. >>  G >> As such, there is a need to talk to HP about methods to control such H >> downloads and limit it to hobbyists so that we get access to the kits: >> and HO is comfortable that such sustem won't be abused. >>  I >> There are plenty of us willing to offer hosting/bandwidth to help with I >> the distribution.  And from what I have been told, this issue has been K >> on the back burner for years, and perhaps it is time to push it forwards  >> and get it done.  >  >Not speaking for HP.  > I >I believe the issues involve some licensed technology that has been put  E >into parts of VMS.  That's why some layered products are NOT in the   >hobbyist program. > M Any such products would not have PAKS made available to the hobbyist program. N What people are talking about is a download site for all the software which isI not provided on the hobbyist CDs but which they have been given PAKS for.   
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University          I >I'd think that if there weren't such obsticles, along with the legality  J >of some of the software making it to some countries, that there would be $ >an official site hosting downloads. > A >As has been mentioned, much of this stuff can be found, but the  , >availability isn't broadcast to the public. >  >-- 5 >David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450 5 >Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596 ? >DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com  >170 Grimplin Road >Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 08:30:38 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download3 Message-ID: <KWJmmmfNsAgl@eisner.encompasserve.org>   J In article <d9opkl$oqc$2@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:\ > In article <11bprv95c6e7t83@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  G >>JF.  You keep ignoring the posts that refer to parts of the software  = >>coming from other sources, which require royalties be paid.  >>0 >>One poster also mentioned export restrictions. >>5 >>Ignoring these issues doesn't make them irrelavant.  >>K > It does for this discussion since royalty products will not have had PAKS  > issued to the hobbyists.  C How can you know for certain the contents of all such arrangements. A Motif is (or was) a royalty product, but there was a special deal C for hobbyist arrangements.  I do not know the details of that deal, B and I do not see how others involved in these discussions can know them for all such products.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:50:26 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <42C0041C.C2AB0D06@teksavvy.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:M > > It does for this discussion since royalty products will not have had PAKS  > > issued to the hobbyists. > E > How can you know for certain the contents of all such arrangements. C > Motif is (or was) a royalty product, but there was a special deal E > for hobbyist arrangements.  I do not know the details of that deal, D > and I do not see how others involved in these discussions can know > them for all such products.     R  I will try to word it differently since many seem to have the same misconception.  E The Hobbyist programme has managed to get authorisation to distribute H PAKs for a whole slew of products, most of which are not included in theG Hobbyist CD. This authorisation implicitely means that rights/royalties 2 for any attached technologies have been approved.     G From HP's point of view, perhaps the Hobbyist programme *could* be seen D as a single corporation with a right-to-copy for media. The HobbyistH programme *could* therefore distribute copies of all relevant media kitsE (those for which it is allowed to issue PAKs) inside its organisation  (consisting of all hobbyists).  R The word *could*  could/should be replaced with "*should*" in the above paragraph.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 06:54:10 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadC Message-ID: <1119880450.608451.259120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:9 > In article <Xns967FE7AC9ACC1dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>, * >    "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:+ > >%NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Bill Gunshannon wrote in % > >news:3i37lcFj8admU1@individual.net  > > < > >> In article <Xns967FDFA4867B3dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>,0 > >>      "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> writes: > > J > >>> Push comes to shove if HP decides to take OpenVMS off the market, atI > >>> the moment that doesn't seem likely.  If it happens, I'll review my D > >>> position on the distribution of material which others hold the > >>> copyright on.  > >>D > >> Why?  How does their taking it off the market in any way affectD > >> their ownership of it?  It is their property to do with as theyD > >> wish.  If they wish to see it end, then so be it.  It would notD > >> be the first OS to suffer such a fate and probably won't be the
 > >> last.  D This may well be the legal reality for this case. However, owners doG not have the complete right to do whatever they want with what they own C in all cases: Landmark preservation. Developers wanted to tear down C Grand Central Terminal. Thanks to the work of preservations, it was D saved. The owners had no choice in the matter. Zoning laws similarly* affect what you can do with your own land.  F While the case of OSes may well be as you say, I don't think we shouldD just accept it as "right". There ARE exceptions as I mentioned aboveE and in a previous post in this thread. And I strongly feel that there  *should* be exceptions.     F > >Bill, you're right.  And I'm not thinking straight.  I'm letting myF > >desire to see VMS live on conflict with the reality of who owns it.    C I think destroying knowledge like this should be a crime. It isn't, F legally, but I think it should be. No one lives in a vacuum. On top ofF their owning the OS, they have sold it and supported it for many, manyB people. I think implies some reasonable obligations to the buyers!  F It may be legally okay for them to destroy VMS, but I strongly feel it should be otherwise.  F What I'm trying to say is that ownership should not, and is often not, the be all and end all.     3 > Good.  I understand perfectly how you're feeling.  > > L > >What I'm expressing is a desire to see the good bits of VMS get publicity? > >and uptake, but I don't really want to see an OS replace it.  > ? > It's not the replacing that is at risk; it's worse.  It's the 9 > complete irradication of all that accumulated knowledge A > and experience that the OS holds.  AFAICT, it's the last useful > > OS in the world that doesn't require user mode wrestling for! > anybody to get their work done.  >  > /BAH > ) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:05:03 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download) Message-ID: <d9p12f$rhd$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   c In article <KWJmmmfNsAgl@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: K >In article <d9opkl$oqc$2@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: ] >> In article <11bprv95c6e7t83@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > H >>>JF.  You keep ignoring the posts that refer to parts of the software > >>>coming from other sources, which require royalties be paid. >>> 1 >>>One poster also mentioned export restrictions.  >>> 6 >>>Ignoring these issues doesn't make them irrelavant. >>> L >> It does for this discussion since royalty products will not have had PAKS >> issued to the hobbyists.  > D >How can you know for certain the contents of all such arrangements.B >Motif is (or was) a royalty product, but there was a special dealD >for hobbyist arrangements.  I do not know the details of that deal,C >and I do not see how others involved in these discussions can know  >them for all such products.  J Because HP (and COMPAQ and DEC before them) have to know this information.L The hobbyist program is not the only program where such restrictions apply. I The DECCAMPUS PAK CD does not include PAKs for "Royalty products" or for   those with export restrictions. G The paperwork with the listings which shows which CD the software is on H together with PAK name etc lists the software but in the LMF name columnK lists either "Royalty Product" or "Export controlled". Users wanting to use J those products need to contact HP. (Note. The products are included on the> software distribution it is just the PAKs which are withheld).     H If HP has allowed Royalty product or Export controlled products onto theN hobbyist PAKS then since they have already condoned people informally sharing N media then they are already giving away someone else's IP or breaching export  regulations.' I do not believe that that is the case.     
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 27 Jun 05 11:54:29 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <2KSdneSxQ_hUml3fRVn-oQ@rcn.net>  C In article <1119880450.608451.259120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, (    "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote: >  >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: : >> In article <Xns967FE7AC9ACC1dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>,+ >>    "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote: , >> >%NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Bill Gunshannon wrote in& >> >news:3i37lcFj8admU1@individual.net >> >= >> >> In article <Xns967FDFA4867B3dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>, 1 >> >>      "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> writes:  >> >K >> >>> Push comes to shove if HP decides to take OpenVMS off the market, at J >> >>> the moment that doesn't seem likely.  If it happens, I'll review myE >> >>> position on the distribution of material which others hold the  >> >>> copyright on. >> >> E >> >> Why?  How does their taking it off the market in any way affect E >> >> their ownership of it?  It is their property to do with as they E >> >> wish.  If they wish to see it end, then so be it.  It would not E >> >> be the first OS to suffer such a fate and probably won't be the  >> >> last.  > E >This may well be the legal reality for this case. However, owners do H >not have the complete right to do whatever they want with what they ownD >in all cases: Landmark preservation. Developers wanted to tear downD >Grand Central Terminal. Thanks to the work of preservations, it wasE >saved. The owners had no choice in the matter. Zoning laws similarly + >affect what you can do with your own land.  > G >While the case of OSes may well be as you say, I don't think we should E >just accept it as "right". There ARE exceptions as I mentioned above F >and in a previous post in this thread. And I strongly feel that there >*should* be exceptions.  = But there aren't exceptions.  This is the computing biz life.    >  > G >> >Bill, you're right.  And I'm not thinking straight.  I'm letting my G >> >desire to see VMS live on conflict with the reality of who owns it.  >  > ; >I think destroying knowledge like this should be a crime.    8 No.  Doing it on purpose, maybe.  What you don't seem to8 understand is that this kind of knowledge has be babysat8 constantly.  No company will, nor should they, pay money8 to babysit old stuff when there is no advantage to their businesses to do so.  
 > ..It isn't, G >legally, but I think it should be. No one lives in a vacuum. On top of G >their owning the OS, they have sold it and supported it for many, many C >people. I think implies some reasonable obligations to the buyers!   A We are breeding these people.  This is not how life works.  There ? is no obligation out of the goodness of corporate hearts.  Your / paycheck depends on this aspect of our economy.    > G >It may be legally okay for them to destroy VMS, but I strongly feel it  >should be otherwise.   G We are not talking about an active action to destroy a set of software. @ This software will disappear if it's not tended by knowledgable A human beings.  If there is no active development going on, nobody 5 will get paid to babysit old crufty bit arrangements.    > G >What I'm trying to say is that ownership should not, and is often not,  >the be all and end all.  < Yes, it is.  Otherwise you have anarchy where sole result is= to destroy anything and everything that was built and useful.  >  /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jun 2005 14:46:48 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3iahqoFkj28jU1@individual.net>   , In article <W-CdnUCahLNZViLfRVn-jA@rcn.net>, 	jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > C > It looks like there is a bug.  The dotcom generation has not been A > trained in the consequences of stealing.  Read some of the long ? > discussions on game newsgroups about this subject.  There are < > a growing number of people who have absolutely no idea how" > hard/software products are made.  = You can lay a major part of the blame for this at the feet of ; one of todays computer subculture heroes, Richard Stallman. >     "I consider that the golden rule requires that if I like a;      program I must share it with other people who like it. @      Software sellers want to divide the users and conquer them,>      making each user agree not to share with others. I refuse?      to break solidarity with other users in this way. I cannot ;      in good conscience sign a nondisclosure agreement or a "      software license agreement."   @ From this we got the Gnu Public Virus and the idea that there is> no inherent value in programs and so they can be given away at? will.  All this because he was too stupid to know what the term C "Public Domain" meant when he first gave away the code to his early  version of EMACS.   D If you draw the conclusion fromt he above that I don't think much ofD Stallman, you would be right.  I feel he has done more to damage theD software world than anyone else.  (Oh yeah, and he didn't invent theC idea of "software sharing" mod.sources was created in 1983 and that 6 was just to formalize what had already been going on.)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:39:06 +0000 (UTC) ( From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download5 Message-ID: <d9p32a$f63$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>   c In article <42bc83ab$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>, "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@istop.com> writes: I > Motif and TCPIP were developed in conjunction with partners of Digital. M > Those folks are entitled to their Royalty payments and to make that happen, 1 > a PAK is used to manage the actual product use.   E The same can be said of all other IT vendors, IBM, Sun, HP, SGI, etc. < None if them, AFAIK, has such a silly "atomistic" PAK scheme for their OS components.< So why does DEC need to pass on its development cost in such an unfriendly way ? J When I e.g. load an IBM box with AIX I see a boatload of copyright notices= going way back into the 80s, and very probably IBM has to pay B royalties as well. But you can load and run their OS w/o problems.M *Then* you may watch out and buy and license additional software and support.    I > There is a lot of cross licensed code and the folks that worked hard on N > creating it are justified in expecting to be paid for their work and the use > of their IP.  A No problem with that. But why should I, as a customer/admin/user, * be worried with DECs royalty obligations ?6 They should sort out their financial stuff internally, like any other vendor does.    ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jun 2005 15:00:31 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3iaikfFkj28jU2@individual.net>   5 In article <d9p3uq$fhg$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, + 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: \ > In article <11bpqr7eeabv01d@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>  K >> I believe the issues involve some licensed technology that has been put  G >> into parts of VMS.  That's why some layered products are NOT in the   >> hobbyist program. >>   > * > This is another thing I don't understandB > (well, I believe I'm thinking common sense here, not IP lawyer),. > as long as they don't give away source code,& > why can't they give away that stuff.L > They're allowed to sell it, even if it has been licensed from 3rd parties,$ > so why not give it away for free ?: > Does licensing include that they *must* charge for it ?   C In most cases it involves accounting for and paying a fee for every A copy that goes out.  If you don't charge the recipient where does D the money to pay the royalty fee come from?  If they have negotiatedE an agreement that lets them give it away to hobbyists it seems rather D counter-productive to take actions that might lead to someone in the chain changing their minds.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jun 2005 15:24:11 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3iak0qFkk3cfU1@individual.net>   5 In article <d9p5dm$fvn$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, 3 	m.kraemer@biors6a.gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:  > In article <rdeininger-2506050645320001@user-105n8cn.dialup.mindspring.com>, rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) writes:H >> In article <d9hklm$gh$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, m.kraemer@gsi.de >> (Michael Kraemer) wrote:  >>   >>  3 >> >In which way do I "steal" IP from HP this way ? < >> >I buy used equipment from somebody how as bought it fromC >> >somebody else who has paid money to HP for the fresh equipment. 2 >> >If I buy a used car, do I "steal" it from GM ? >> >> >> >Now if I replicated the stuff and sold it for own account,# >> >that would be theft, of course.  >>  M >> Because the fellow you bought the system from didn't own the software.  He L >> owned a license to use it under specific terms.  Those terms typically doK >> no include the right to transfer the license to a 3rd party (you), or to * >> extend the license to multiple parties. >>  M >> HP owns the software.  To use it legally, you need HP's permission, in the  >> form of a license.  > J > And all this is exactly what only IP lawyers and brainwashed politiciansB > find "legal" or "natural". If I buy a product, e.g. a car, it isH > mine and I can do withit whatever I like (except pirating of course). @ > Volkswagen or GM or BMW has no say anymore, and rightfully so.8 > Why should a software product be treated differently ?  G Because you didn't "buy" the software, you licensed it.  And as for the E car industry, they, too, have latched onto this model.  It's called a H lease.  You pay just as much but you end out not only not owning the carF but usually with a large closing fee that has to be paid at the end ofD the lease period.  (and then we have the fun semantics like "no downH payment" but you have a $5000 up front fee!!)  And they even get to tellD you how far your allowed to drive the car befire incurring even moreJ additional costs.  It just took the car industry a little longer to figure out how to do it.    bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jun 2005 15:43:36 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3ial58Fkm58rU1@individual.net>   9 In article <20050627170237.1437c66c.m_roguski@yahoo.com>, 5 	Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski <m_roguski@yahoo.com> writes:  > [...] C >> From this we got the Gnu Public Virus and the idea that there is A >> no inherent value in programs and so they can be given away at  >> will. > [...]  > C > Allow me to put my two cents here. I disagree, I neither tolerate D > software piracy (hay, I don't even have Windows, Office, Photoshop> > etc...) on my PC computers. But GNU GPL did actually made a  > difference,   E How?  As I pointed out we shared software before the Gnu Public Virus E just fine.  GNU has actually hurt the system as there are many people F with great skills who will not touch GNU Software with a ten-foot poleG who would provide their services if there was no such restriction (such G as the BSD Style license).  Add to that the fact that it doesn't always C accomplish what people think (I can point out software derived from H GNU that in the form it is available, which meets the letter of the GPL,> is totally useless form the standpoint of future development).  J >             and software piracy existed long before Stallman, Torvalds, - > Cox or <insert your favourite target here>.   D Sure it did.  And guess what, the pirates knew they were pirates andF were even proud of the fact.  Today, we have a much greater number whoE don't think stealing software is piracy.  We have invented terms like H "orphanware" in order to rationalize our actions so we can steal but notD consider ourselves as thieves.  That I blame on people like StallmanE who created the idea that computer programs (as IP) have no intrinsic G value and must be considered as belonging to the people (hmmmm..  where $ have we heard this rhetoric before?)  I >                                              And the idea of GPL is not - > that software can be "given away at will",    F That's not the mindset it has engendered.  Looka t what Stallman said,:   "if I like a program I must share it with other people" @                      give anything you like to all your friends.>   "Software sellers want to divide the users and conquer them"6                      selling software is somehow evil.F   "For years I worked within the Artificial Intelligence Lab to resistE    such tendencies and other inhospitalities, but eventually they had     gone too far:"   G An interesting concept as, to the best of my knowledge, everything that H came out of AI.mit.edu was freely available.  I used a lot of stuff that* came from there and the other labs at MIT.    H >                                            but that anyone can developK > software based on your ideas (providing that he will give you credit and  ; > grant rights for others to do the same with his ideas)...   @ And yet, the same still goes on with other much less restrictive= licenses (such as the BSD style license) as well.  Go figure.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 08:47:34 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadC Message-ID: <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:E > In article <1119880450.608451.259120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, * >    "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote: > >  > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: < > >> In article <Xns967FE7AC9ACC1dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>,- > >>    "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote: . > >> >%NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Bill Gunshannon wrote in( > >> >news:3i37lcFj8admU1@individual.net > >> >? > >> >> In article <Xns967FDFA4867B3dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>, 3 > >> >>      "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> writes:  > >> >M > >> >>> Push comes to shove if HP decides to take OpenVMS off the market, at L > >> >>> the moment that doesn't seem likely.  If it happens, I'll review myG > >> >>> position on the distribution of material which others hold the  > >> >>> copyright on. > >> >> G > >> >> Why?  How does their taking it off the market in any way affect G > >> >> their ownership of it?  It is their property to do with as they G > >> >> wish.  If they wish to see it end, then so be it.  It would not G > >> >> be the first OS to suffer such a fate and probably won't be the 
 > >> >> last.  > > G > >This may well be the legal reality for this case. However, owners do J > >not have the complete right to do whatever they want with what they ownF > >in all cases: Landmark preservation. Developers wanted to tear downF > >Grand Central Terminal. Thanks to the work of preservations, it wasG > >saved. The owners had no choice in the matter. Zoning laws similarly - > >affect what you can do with your own land.  > > I > >While the case of OSes may well be as you say, I don't think we should G > >just accept it as "right". There ARE exceptions as I mentioned above H > >and in a previous post in this thread. And I strongly feel that there > >*should* be exceptions. > ? > But there aren't exceptions.  This is the computing biz life.     B That may be true, and I even admitted so. But exceptions exist forG other things, so it is not inconceivable that exceptions may one day be  made for the computing biz.     I > >> >Bill, you're right.  And I'm not thinking straight.  I'm letting my I > >> >desire to see VMS live on conflict with the reality of who owns it.  > >  > > < > >I think destroying knowledge like this should be a crime. > : > No.  Doing it on purpose, maybe.  What you don't seem to: > understand is that this kind of knowledge has be babysat: > constantly.  No company will, nor should they, pay money: > to babysit old stuff when there is no advantage to their > businesses to do so.  D I think there are plenty of VMS enthusiasts who would welcome taking" over the care and nuturing of VMS.   > > ..It isn't, I > >legally, but I think it should be. No one lives in a vacuum. On top of I > >their owning the OS, they have sold it and supported it for many, many E > >people. I think implies some reasonable obligations to the buyers!  > C > We are breeding these people.  This is not how life works.  There A > is no obligation out of the goodness of corporate hearts.  Your 1 > paycheck depends on this aspect of our economy.     ' We are breeding these people? Say what?   E There is too obligation. If a corporation sells you something that is C defective, or worse, dangerous, you can sue them in court. I'm just E saying that at some level it seems unfair to pull the carpet out from G under those who use VMS. I'm not saying that it 100% supreme, but it is  not 0% either!     >  > > I > >It may be legally okay for them to destroy VMS, but I strongly feel it  > >should be otherwise.  > I > We are not talking about an active action to destroy a set of software. A > This software will disappear if it's not tended by knowledgable C > human beings.  If there is no active development going on, nobody 7 > will get paid to babysit old crufty bit arrangements.     
 See above.    I > >What I'm trying to say is that ownership should not, and is often not,  > >the be all and end all. > > > Yes, it is.  Otherwise you have anarchy where sole result is? > to destroy anything and everything that was built and useful.     C Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down? G Then why are companies sued for defective products? Why does Exxon have F to "use" its Esso trademark to protect it? Why can't GM make sell carsB that don't have pollution controls? Why can't a developer build anG office building ON HIS OWN LAND when it is zoned as a residential area? 3 Copyright laws are another example. Patents expire.   F There are tons of laws about restrictions on ownership. There are even. some things you are not allowed to own at all!   > >  > /BAH > ) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jun 2005 16:19:13 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3ian81FkgufgU1@individual.net>   C In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, ' 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  > E > Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down?   & Because we have a warped court system.  6 > Then why are companies sued for defective products?   G For the same reason they are sued when some idiot does something really E stupid with their product that it was not designed for and gets hurt. H (Remember, we have the court system that awarded several million dollars/ for loss of psychic ability after  a CAT-scan.)   H >                                                    Why does Exxon have- > to "use" its Esso trademark to protect it?    A Because trademarks are a totally different concept with different E rules entirely.  A more important question would have been what right B did the government have to tell them they had to change their name: in the US?  But that isn't generic to the discussion.  :-)  I >                                             Why can't GM make sell cars & > that don't have pollution controls?   E For the same reason I can't drive on the I81 at 150 mph.  Our elected D government decided that it was in the public good to limit pollutionE and it isn't worth the cost of making two differnt models in order to C service those places that have less strict requirements. (it should D be noted that even after both the US and Europe had strict pollutionC requirements VW still manufactured the old Beetle without emissions D control in Mexico for sale in those places that still allowed them.)  D >                                     Why can't a developer build anI > office building ON HIS OWN LAND when it is zoned as a residential area?   G Because it affects others than himself.  And the one legitimate purpose I of government is to protect it's citizenry.  He is free to convince those G he would affect that his plan is good for them and the zoning should be  changed.  5 > Copyright laws are another example. Patents expire.    Copyrights also expire.    > H > There are tons of laws about restrictions on ownership. There are even0 > some things you are not allowed to own at all!  E Most restrictions are about protecting others from the stupid acts of > the few.  Exactly how does this apply to the licensing of VMS?   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:20:39 +0000 (UTC) ( From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download5 Message-ID: <d9pch7$ihb$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>   V In article <3iaikfFkj28jU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > E > In most cases it involves accounting for and paying a fee for every C > copy that goes out.  If you don't charge the recipient where does / > the money to pay the royalty fee come from?     - But that's a monetary issue, not a legal one. ' They could do as any other vendor does: : royalty costs are distributed over the whole product line.@ Or how do you think e.g. Sun can give away their Solaris 8..10 ?, Do you think they don't pay any royalties ?    > If they have negotiated G > an agreement that lets them give it away to hobbyists it seems rather F > counter-productive to take actions that might lead to someone in the > chain changing their minds.  >   9 Sure, it may give them excuses to stop this extra service " for a couple of hobbyist weirdo's.B Still I don't see any business or legal logic that would hinder HP9 (or any company) to give away stuff for free even if they ' have licensed parts of it from others.     ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 07:36:04 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Consulting in Europe 3 Message-ID: <eQIn1Fs9liCW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <Ksmve.117664$VH2.93318@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>, Beach Runner <bob@nospam.com> writes: >  > Monitor was written in PL1  C    And shipped with 3.0.  It replaced sys$system:display.exe, which %    may not have been written in PL/I.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:39:09 -0700 # From: Joe Bloggs <JBloggs@acme.com> 1 Subject: Re: What Terminal Servers are you using? 8 Message-ID: <5800c1h6ko40k537hirnp09l5i8mh39do0@4ax.com>  D On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:27:24 -0500, Thomas Wirt <twnews@kittles.com> wrote:  D >I have a project coming up that will require us to get some new IP I >capable Terminal Servers.  I plan on looking for refurbed Decserver 90m  C >units, since this is what we have had in the past and we have the  D >backplane/hub in which the 90 series can go.  Is anyone buying any I >alternatives to the 90m?  How much are you paying for how many terminal   >ports?  >  >TIA   Penril Datability, ~1000-1500.  ; http://www.intekusa.com/datability_penril_access_beyond.htm    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 06:36:32 -0700 From: ljbartel@juno.com 5 Subject: write sequential variable len record from PC C Message-ID: <1119879391.993793.112240@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   G I'm struggling to write a sequential variable length record file from a F PC for input to a VAX program. I've done a byte by byte comparison andE the file looks identical to the file generated by the VAX but its not F working. If I use Exchange/net/fdl=xyz.fdl the file gets damaged and I@ can't even open it in an editor. It changes from fixed length toG variable length but seems like my record lengths are being ignored. Any  ideas how to accomplish this?    thanks LJB    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:56:39 -0400 + From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC A Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050627095522.05d07350@mail.patmedia.net>   / At 09:36 AM 6/27/2005, ljbartel@juno.com wrote: H >I'm struggling to write a sequential variable length record file from aG >PC for input to a VAX program. I've done a byte by byte comparison and F >the file looks identical to the file generated by the VAX but its notG >working. If I use Exchange/net/fdl=xyz.fdl the file gets damaged and I A >can't even open it in an editor. It changes from fixed length to H >variable length but seems like my record lengths are being ignored. Any >ideas how to accomplish this?  < Why can't you write a plain TXT file on the PC. How are you E transferring it from the PC to the VMS system. If you are using FTP,  - make sure you transfer in ASCII or TEXT mode.    Ken    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 07:46:09 -0700 From: "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC C Message-ID: <1119883569.563110.181610@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F The file is full of VAX floats, integers and pic. I need to write themB just the way the VAX needs them. I've used both NFS and Binary FTPD without luck. Like I said the files appear identical on the VAX whenE comparing them using dump/hex. Only the true VAX generated ones work. 4 Exchange or Convert don't seem to be able to fix it.   thanks LJB    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 16:36:12 +0200. From: huber@NOBODY-mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber)9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC + Message-ID: <O4VRO36UnNOF@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>   ] In article <1119879391.993793.112240@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ljbartel@juno.com writes: I > I'm struggling to write a sequential variable length record file from a H > PC for input to a VAX program. I've done a byte by byte comparison andG > the file looks identical to the file generated by the VAX but its not H > working. If I use Exchange/net/fdl=xyz.fdl the file gets damaged and IB > can't even open it in an editor. It changes from fixed length toI > variable length but seems like my record lengths are being ignored. Any  > ideas how to accomplish this?  > H If You really have built a binary correct variable-length-recorrds file,J then a binary transfer, and a SET FILE/ATTRIBUTES on the VMS side would be o.k.. J EXCHANGE/NET does CONVERT the file, using the VAR record metadata as data.  ? But first of all, it is a crazy idea to rebuild the file-format  on the PC side.     --  6    Joseph Huber, Muenchen  http://www.huber-joseph.de/   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 07:52:27 -0700 From: "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC B Message-ID: <1119883947.743448.34940@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  F It may seem crazy but I need to translate Autocad drawings to a formatE used in a legacy graphics system (DI3000 ??). Recent Autocad upgrades C cause the old translator programs to fail. We don't have the source E code for the translators and the company that wrote them is no longer G in that business. The format is smple enough I thought I could do it on F the PC since it only supports move, draw and text. Byte for byte I got4 the job done. It seems the file system is the issue.   thanks LJB    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:50:33 GMT 7 From: John Malmberg <malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 1 Message-ID: <dfVve.7673$PF3.716@news.cpqcorp.net>   
 LJB wrote:H > The file is full of VAX floats, integers and pic. I need to write themD > just the way the VAX needs them. I've used both NFS and Binary FTPF > without luck. Like I said the files appear identical on the VAX whenG > comparing them using dump/hex. Only the true VAX generated ones work. 6 > Exchange or Convert don't seem to be able to fix it.  E If the DUMP/HEX shows them to be identical, then the issue is likely  ? that the file attributes of the transfered files are incorrect.   B Non-OpenVMS systems will typically not produce files with OpenVMS K specific file attributes or know how to set those attributes on a transfer.   B Compare a DIR/FULL of a transfered file with that of one that was  generated on a VAX.   C Then you should be able to use the DCL SET FILE command to set the  + attributes of the file to what is expected.    -John ! malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compap.hp  Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 10:06:47 -0700 From: "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC A Message-ID: <1119892007.141623.7230@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   F I don't see anything in Set File that would apply. I need to change my PC generated file from:    RMS FILE ATTRIBUTES   %         File Organization: sequential          Record Format: fixed         Record Attributes:          Maximum Record Size: 512         Longest Record: 512 5         Blocks Allocated: 4, Default Extend Size: 384 ,         End-of-File VBN: 1, Offset: %X'00B6'!         File Monitoring: disabled          Global Buffer Count: 0 to:    RMS FILE ATTRIBUTES   %         File Organization: sequential          Record Format: variable +         Record Attributes:  carriage-return !         Maximum Record Size: 2300          Longest Record: 22664         Blocks Allocated: 12, Default Extend Size: 0-         End-of-File VBN: 11, Offset: %X'0190' !         File Monitoring: disabled          Global Buffer Count: 0  F I got this info with analyze/rms. I think the problem is record formatF and size. I don't think Set File can change those. With dump/hex I seeC two bytes preceeding each record that give its size. I'm faithfully  reproducing those bytes.   LJB    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.357 ************************        :^F-EFW\U)MF[\U3VI;4E*2VI;5&S=M]J7$BF#KJVNVN<DZZG=M<Y9Vn= M7C9-CMS7*K]@R7?2L]R%K^%W/T?[RCZE?[RQ_L%_^D<Y&Q\2YOTO<A:N%T]Kr= M4MK4&NNQOM3V665MW)<2U+M:U,XMB>ZJT9K;K=FW^TBEGJ/)65\7YSAQ^QC^a= M?+O_`'67%CL\1Z/)_7/ZN_M/'=EXK?UVAOT6_P"$8.W]9>>^G:WM[E[;]G;V = M6;;]2^FYV0^UH;6Y_N<W;W4?PCXC0'+Y/^IR_P"Y8.:P7^L'U'[7"_Q=/N?]s= MIK>YSF-:'!J[)V.W<LO#^K-^#D/KP;/2W?2<WP6K95?B>G7?9ZSG-_G-L+9X = MXR689$1X45U=-=;G.^BW]U1QK*;&[F^W;^\HYV?]FP[\G;N]*MSEY?G_`%PZ = MAD;&L_0M8[<[8[G^LG>2<F3A?7\MNZWV_NM5;T6_G+@J_P#&?U';6]V/5MKV = MM<WN876?5OZP'KN+9D/J;4ZMT0U(#39$,G$>&^CH^FU+TVHNU+:DR(T^U3VI = M;4E(PR3*E&D)$$#3A1/DN9^*<][N3VA_-X_^=+]YL8\?"+ZE=)1W-2]5BSK# = M*R56[^<5C<U5[OYQ(H8CZ7[RE9M_-:YJB'.:[<I6;G;=SMR$OF4-E-V[?<W^d= MTDZOV^UKMR9W\VWW?V4O5?\`O(4>BEBUP0,[#QL_$?B9+-]=@DG]W^4U&;]+o= MZ6U3].OT]V[W?NJ2&24)<4#PD((!%%\@Z[TC,Z1E'$O+G4_2QW_FO;^\J%5Kr= M@[W-W^W;!7K?6>CXW5\(XUWM/TJK>['>*\KS^GW]-SG8F6',?6[4CN.Q"ZKX,= M?ST>9QT?YV/SCO\`UG,SX3C/]4[/IOU.R'Y'0:2_FMSF?(+;7-_46S_(#/Z[r= MUT;7-<K<F:'RQ9UN#=8W._-3^N1]$*&U,JV3D\&3)[F2/'+^L9+QDD!0-,S: = M[P:HNNN\4RBY*/)\M'Y<,!_@J.29_2+(V6C\YR)CESFG=^\JCLFM6L2QKJW?I= MUE7^)X\8Y.=1$=8_*OQDG(+*1)).N3;:R2=,DI=)))3K5))))*62224"Y?Q0s= M\G^:/^O9$\4._P"@?]>RM\I_/X?]KC_Z2R?RR\BTMJ922VKLFDPVI)TDE+** = M)M4=J2D>U+:B;4MJ*D>U.I[4MJ2D3F^URX#$ZKUP]3N^P6"BVQGI.=_(;+5Zh= M%M]KOZJ\I#2>INJ]5U6^US'/#N 2A*(D);?5AS7<7I?JG]N_YT.KSK76V58]n= MHW.,]PN[[!<OT[HO3ND_6?'9BY1RWWXMC[W%P?K(\%UEK:QM]/\`M+F_C$A+n= MF(</Z6*/YMKDQ6,W^\C]JE[MWM46[5/\Y91;+!O\I,G]OYR9%"DDDD5*2'TDe= MDA]))39=]%"V[FMW(KOHH/YJCBN+'VIDZ36[D]:IOYR'D?S%O_%N_(B!#R/Ys= MBW_BW?D3H?./-1V?$E-NW<W=QW4Z6UNL'JG:W<)^$ZK4R\;H5N<*\7(]+']) = MSG/=.MFL#5=P94:HN,!HY#MFYVWCLM7ZK#=UBEOD_P#(LGZ+EM?5!KOVW4X? = MFA\_<BICG=>ZS5=;ALR[68]%K]E8=$:PLUMSGOFY[MKOI>8E'ZC5;;U7)94Ps= MO>ZU\- D\JM;1?C/V7,-3_![8*$1$;1 42>I>VZ=F_4O'S<6W'8Y[ZZV^JQ[h= M'6;G_G(=OUX;BDTX>'6UC+W6UN<W_HZH7U1ZC71EU6LZ3]H]-ONL8V28'FLWu= M.?U+K&>^K%Q7,-]KG-8UL:JF,,3DEQ\1$?TIS_[UN^Y+@'!I_<BW,+ZR4OR\b= M_,R<1]EM[7&AU7L]-_GM6*SJN;C9+,NC]#:V=CV_%;WU6HZKAYV1@.Q:K++6.= M^D\W_P"#/[RR^K4=29F.Z?=:QXQM\; (`<?=PI(>U[LH1$?EC^E?I63]WVXR = MD9;]E=6R;<[-Q,C->ZQU]+'VN^)6E;A87K793'LVU;6,8]VKI"S<S$;3]@R+R= M-KJ/28PF>2"M/)NI=U-CL1K6[FM:UNV=(3<GZ,8:1X9[?+Z5V'](R_>@\_UDs= M/^W'>S8[:/;SV5JOI/7L[ICLYK76X6,-I<3]$)^KT^OU<LOL93[![^W&GT5Me= MXWU6ZP,#9B]3K]&VCU[*FO,1X)_NQCBQ68P-1^99[1EDR:$ZEH=*ZYU7%Z)Dt= M8%6&+L2X^ZW:9"QLC*KNQJ:FXS*C5.ZULRZ3W6YT[HWUJ=TJW(PGN^R;G;V- = M=S'\E53URZGHO[+LP*MYL+OM1;[_`.4U&/#QRX!$^K]&7_21+Y8\1E'T_NLO = M_6'_`/0W_OB2EN_["MVW_M;]'^PDIVN^V*.U224+>8I;5)))2/:EM1$D5(]J = MEM4DDE(@*WVMHW-]1WNV^2;(Z2W*=Z-EGZ-OYK5Y]]>,VVKZP'T'N8^MC6[F = M^*HCI