1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 28 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 358       Contents:P Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa7 Announcment from Ann McQuaid - OpenVMS Hobbyist Program ; Re: Announcment from Ann McQuaid - OpenVMS Hobbyist Program ; Re: Announcment from Ann McQuaid - OpenVMS Hobbyist Program ; Re: Announcment from Ann McQuaid - OpenVMS Hobbyist Program / Re:  Connecting to Xerox Phaser 7750 with DCPS?  Re: corrupt PCSI database?! Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP ! Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP ! European VMS Consultants required % Re: European VMS Consultants required % Re: European VMS Consultants required % Re: European VMS Consultants required % Re: European VMS Consultants required % Re: European VMS Consultants required  Re: Hurd an Alpha fan  Re: Hurd an Alpha fan  Re: Hurd an Alpha fan  Re: Hurd an Alpha fan  Re: Hurd an Alpha fan  Re: Hurd an Alpha fan  Re: Hurd an Alpha fan  Re: Monitoring IP traffic  RE: Monitoring IP traffic  Re: My Multia Adventure  Re: My Multia Adventure  Re: Old DEC Award? Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Point of clarification on ISV's / Re: Problem with spam filtering in Mozilla/CSWB / Re: Problem with spam filtering in Mozilla/CSWB  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha? 
 Re: SAN & DFU 4 Support *for* Oracle Rdb on CHARON-VAX Emulators ???' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download 0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:13:15 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> Y Subject: Re: - Re: OT: Why does Bob post? ( was Re: Intel neuters M ontvale, Itanic screa 4 Message-ID: <42c07b06$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>   david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote: 5 > In article <zBRauXR+5$SB@eisner.encompasserve.org>, ? > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: E >> In article <1119379356.453549.59970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,  >> bob@instantwhip.com writes: >>C >>> he is a Christian like I do, the bible is 100% truth and either / >>> you accept it and follow it as such or burn  >> > > > Ignoring the contradictions of a literal 6 day creation with > scientific > evidence.  > F > If the Bible is 100% true (presumably the word of God passed down toF > one author - Moses ? ) then how do you reconcile the different order > of creation in the7 > two different accounts of creation given in Genesis ?  >  > see  > ' > http://members.aol.com/bbu85/nous.htm  > A > In the first version Man and Woman are created after plants and 
 > animals.E > In the second version Man is created before plants and animals with  > Woman then > being created. > E > Even if the Bible was originally the word of God it has been handed  > down over F > thousands of years. It would hardly be surprising if during all that > timeE > the text had altered from the original. But that would mean that it  > wasn't anyH > longer 100% true. (indeed if you just look at English Bibles since theE > inventing of the Printing Press you will find many variations and a 
 > few withB > gross errors eg the 1631 King James version - "Thou shall commit
 > adultery").  >  > see J > http://www.catholicapologetics.net/0002kjv.htm#On%20the%20Lighter%20side      	 Also see: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers  a.k.a. "Broken Telephone"      --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 12:14:29 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com @ Subject: Announcment from Ann McQuaid - OpenVMS Hobbyist ProgramC Message-ID: <1119899669.536257.124480@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    -----Original Message----- From: McQuaid, Ann (VMS)# Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 3:08 PM # To: Skonetski, Susan; Herman, Wendy ! Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Program      To the OpenVMS Community,   D I would like to take this opportunity to reinforce our commitment to< the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program and announce that Sue Skonetski? (susan.skonetski@hp.com) will be the HP liaison to the Hobbyist  Program.  G As you may know, the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program had its start in May 1997 E at the DECUS (now Encompass) Symposia in Cincinnati based on customer D requests.  The OpenVMS Hobbyist program began with a simple premise:  F To provide a low cost solution for the VMS hobbyist wanting learn moreF about VMS for the simple pleasure of using one of the finest Operating2 systems ever developed for their own personal use.  E For more information on the OpenVMS Hobbyist program please visit the ? web site at http://www.openvmshobbyist.com. Should you have any : questions or issues, please do not hesitate to contact us.  G My thanks to David Cathy from Montagar Software who continues to manage  the OpenVMS Hobbyist program.    Regards,   Ann McQuaid  General Manager  OpenVMS Division   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:42:36 -0400 + From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> D Subject: Re: Announcment from Ann McQuaid - OpenVMS Hobbyist ProgramA Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050627153937.050993d0@mail.patmedia.net>   9 At 03:14 PM 6/27/2005, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:  >To the OpenVMS Community, > E >I would like to take this opportunity to reinforce our commitment to = >the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program and announce that Sue Skonetski @ >(susan.skonetski@hp.com) will be the HP liaison to the Hobbyist	 >Program.    Congratulations!  F >For more information on the OpenVMS Hobbyist program please visit the@ >web site at http://www.openvmshobbyist.com. Should you have any; >questions or issues, please do not hesitate to contact us.   F If you need any help with the web site (updates, etc.) I can help (as E long as I'm looking for work and maybe after I get a new job). I did  ) notice that some links should be updated.   
 Ken Robinson     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:25:40 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> D Subject: Re: Announcment from Ann McQuaid - OpenVMS Hobbyist Program, Message-ID: <42C098FA.2BF9BD05@teksavvy.com>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:G > As folk may have guessed I did volunteer for this.  Wiz, Dave and Pat G > are all friends of mine and I want to do what I can to help the hobby = > program.  Which is why I started the research this weekend.   H Sue, the hobbyist programme in in good hands :-) :-) :-) Congratulations# and many thanks for taking this on.   G > I was surprised at how much legal stuff is involved.  This is a great F > program and Dave has done a wonderful job, please keep in mind he is, > doing this for free and in his spare time.  < Yes, Mr Cathay deserves a huge thank you from the community.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 21:27:43 -0700& From: "Mister Q" <pquodling@gmail.com>D Subject: Re: Announcment from Ann McQuaid - OpenVMS Hobbyist ProgramC Message-ID: <1119932863.566911.250110@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   9 so, Susan, when can we get V7.3-2 and V8.2 Hobbyist kits?    Mister Q   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:51:27 GMT * From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>8 Subject: Re:  Connecting to Xerox Phaser 7750 with DCPS?5 Message-ID: <270620051446382041%paul.anderson@hp.com>   E In article <00A45C64.6F0F856C@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, Alan Winston - > SSRL Central Computing <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:  G > Users have just rolled in Xerox Phaser 7750 and 7550; I've previously % > had Digital/HP printers to support.  > < > I see that 7750 is listed in the DCPS 2.4 SPD; 7550 isn't. > : > (1) What's the magic incantation to connect to the 7750?E > IP_RawTCP/(ipaddress):9100 produces a queue that starts but doesn't D > work; a print job eventually times out with "Printer is not ready"  E The Xerox Phaser printers added as supported in DCPS V2.4 do not work > with a Raw TCP port since they don't respond to the PostScript? end-of-job ^D character sent by DCPS once or more during a job.   D You must use LPD (specify IP_LPD in DCPS$STARTUP) to these printers.  = > (2) Does the 7550 work as an unsupported printer with DCPS?   % I don't know, but I suspect it would.   B You could try using Raw TCP by defining the DCPS$queuename_NO_SYNCG logical name to see if the problem is at the beginning of the job.  But G if it still has the end-of-job problem, you might get a job that prints E and then gets put on hold because DCPS isn't told by the printer that  the job is done.  C If the 7550 shares the same end-of-job behavior as the 7750 and its E friends, you'll have to use LPD.  (Note that the NO_SYNC logical name  is meaningless for LPD jobs.)    Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:26:07 -0400 + From: Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam> # Subject: Re: corrupt PCSI database? @ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506272125360.7577@frank.harvard.edu>  ) On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, O'Brien Paddy wrote:    > $ > One of the respondents came close, >  > $product show history  > 3 > list gives you what is in the current .PCSI file.   & Ah, yes.  That's much better.  Thanks.   Chip   --   Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell Turn on, log in, tune out    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:48:35 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP+ Message-ID: <42C09E62.7B88F22C@comcast.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > b > In article <42BCBE67.38020DAD@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > Rob Brown wrote: > >>J > >> We have COPY/FTP and DIRECTORY/FTP, which Hoff keeps recommending.  I  > >> have been using them a lot. > >>2 > >> Could we also have DELETE/FTP and RENAME/FTP? > >> > >> Just a thought .... > > H > > To speak the plain truth, what we *REALLY* need is a FAL service forG > > TCP/IP and changes to the underlying infrastructure to handle that.  > >  > > TCPIP$FAL anyone?  > 0 >    FAL is capable of things which FTP is not.    ...which why I suggested it.   > FAL can open a file and I >    change its contents remotely, FTP can only transfer the whole thing. D >    To get those capabilities TCPIP$FAL would have to be NFS based.  E That doesn't seem to follow. FAL need only understand the native file H structure(s) of the host system, regardless of where those files reside.4 NFS would be possible, but hardly recommendable IMO.  I >    We have lots of systems which allow FTP or sftp access, but not NFS.  > H >    Both DEC and ISO put forth extensions to RFCs to allow this sort ofG >    thing, but you won't find them implimented on very many platforms.   B I don't think the RFCs would have much to with this, other than toH describe the IP transport of data and access/command information between? the local host and the remote. The rest would be unique to FAL.   H FAL to FAL between VMS systems should do everything that DECnet FAL ever: did. Between VMS and non-VMS systems, the least functional9 o.s./file-system would have to be the common denominator.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:51:28 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP+ Message-ID: <42C09F10.26606189@comcast.net>    Rob Brown wrote: > ) > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Bob Koehler wrote:  > p > > In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506241757320.1028@localhost.localdomain>, Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes: > >>2 > >> Could we also have DELETE/FTP and RENAME/FTP? > >  > >   create/directory/ftp ? >  > I like that one too.  0 $ RSHELL/USER=user/PASS=pass "mkdir newdir_spec"   ...doesn't do it for you, huh?  E Lacking an IP variant of FAL, I find I'm able to do a lot with RSHELL 8 and RCP, though not as much as I could with FAL over IP.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:17:32 +0200 " From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>* Subject: European VMS Consultants required' Message-ID: <42C06CEC.8010206@spam.com>    All,  I It seems that one of my Customers in France may soon be happy to receive  F big help from external VMS Old Timmers for a huge VAX and/or Alpha to  i64 migration project.  ; My personal view on the prerequisites is the following one:   H a) if you are a former DECcie, your badge # should be less than 199'999  :-) : this gives you 20 points  H b) if you are not, you need more than 20 years of experience : 20 points  > c) you need to be (more or less) fluent in English : 10 points  I d) you should accept any relocation (not necessarily in France. Customer   has many sites): 10 points  F e) you need to know if the EFI part of an i64 OpenVMS system disk may " experiment Windoz virus : 5 points  H f) you should have seen an Itanium system running VMS at least once : 5  points  @ g) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Lyon in 2002 : 5 points  E h) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Amsterdam in 2003 : 5 points   B i) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Munich in 2004 : 5 points  6 j) you attended the VMS Sueposium in Nashua: 50 points  I If you have 100 points minimum, you may send me mail with your resum at  & didier dot morandi at freesurf dot fr.   This is (well, nearly) no joke. A I may consider to finance one way plane tickets from Australia...    Thanks,    D. --  4   Didier MORANDI - VMS Expert and SAP CRM Consultant4 13 chemin du Gu - 1213 Petit-Lancy (GE) Switzerland2      Phone: +336 7983 6418 - www.didiermorandi.com   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 17:53:39 -0700) From: "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn@rbnsn.com> . Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants requiredC Message-ID: <1119920019.581559.270450@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Didier MORANDI wrote:  > All, > J > It seems that one of my Customers in France may soon be happy to receiveG > big help from external VMS Old Timmers for a huge VAX and/or Alpha to  > i64 migration project. > = > My personal view on the prerequisites is the following one:  > I > a) if you are a former DECcie, your badge # should be less than 199'999   > :-) : this gives you 20 points  = 0  (Do I get credit for knowing some early DEC employees? :-)    > J > b) if you are not, you need more than 20 years of experience : 20 points   20 (Started on VMS in 1980)    > @ > c) you need to be (more or less) fluent in English : 10 points   10   > J > d) you should accept any relocation (not necessarily in France. Customer > has many sites): 10 points  F 0 (My wife's doctors [cancer specialists] are within driving distance)E If they have a site in NYC, I'm within commuting distance. (1.5 hours 
 on the train)    > G > e) you need to know if the EFI part of an i64 OpenVMS system disk may $ > experiment Windoz virus : 5 points   5    > I > f) you should have seen an Itanium system running VMS at least once : 5  > points   5    > B > g) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Lyon in 2002 : 5 points   0    > G > h) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Amsterdam in 2003 : 5 points    0    > D > i) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Munich in 2004 : 5 points   0    > 8 > j) you attended the VMS Sueposium in Nashua: 50 points  D 0 (someone else on the team I was part of at the company where I hadC been working went. Does attending almost all of the DECUS/Encompass > Symposia in the USA from 1981 through 2002 count for anything)   > L > If you have 100 points minimum, you may send me mail with your resum=E9 at( > didier dot morandi at freesurf dot fr.  F 40 points... If you still want to see my resume, you can find it on my  web site <http://www.rbnsn.com/>   > ! > This is (well, nearly) no joke. C > I may consider to finance one way plane tickets from Australia...    Ken    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:47:21 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> . Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required0 Message-ID: <11c1edajmqqqnf6@corp.supernews.com>   Didier MORANDI wrote:  > All, > K > It seems that one of my Customers in France may soon be happy to receive  H > big help from external VMS Old Timmers for a huge VAX and/or Alpha to  > i64 migration project. > = > My personal view on the prerequisites is the following one:   / Ah, another quiz.  Wonder whether I took notes?   J > a) if you are a former DECcie, your badge # should be less than 199'999   > :-) : this gives you 20 points   0   J > b) if you are not, you need more than 20 years of experience : 20 points  ? 27 years.  Shouldn't I get 7 more points for the extra 7 years?   @ > c) you need to be (more or less) fluent in English : 10 points   More or less.  10   K > d) you should accept any relocation (not necessarily in France. Customer   > has many sites): 10 points   Nope!  0  H > e) you need to know if the EFI part of an i64 OpenVMS system disk may $ > experiment Windoz virus : 5 points   5   J > f) you should have seen an Itanium system running VMS at least once : 5  > points   5   B > g) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Lyon in 2002 : 5 points   0   G > h) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Amsterdam in 2003 : 5 points    0   D > i) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Munich in 2004 : 5 points   0   8 > j) you attended the VMS Sueposium in Nashua: 50 points   0   K > If you have 100 points minimum, you may send me mail with your resum at  ( > didier dot morandi at freesurf dot fr.   47, lose again.  :-(  ! > This is (well, nearly) no joke. C > I may consider to finance one way plane tickets from Australia...  > 	 > Thanks,  >  > D.     --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:37:23 +0200 " From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>. Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required' Message-ID: <42C0E213.5090501@spam.com>    VAXman- a crit:  J >>f) you should have seen an Itanium system running VMS at least once : 5  >>points >  > ! > I have 2... do I get 10 points?   ; I love it... and the answer is yes, so you are eligible :-)    D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:42:34 +0200 " From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>. Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required' Message-ID: <42C0E34A.6030609@spam.com>    Dave Froble a crit:  K >> b) if you are not, you need more than 20 years of experience : 20 points  >  > A > 27 years.  Shouldn't I get 7 more points for the extra 7 years?   5 Sorry, Dave, one line disappeared from the QUIZ form.  Should read   H b) if you are not, you need more than 20 years of experience : 20 points#     every extra year gives 5 points    :-)    D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:45:22 +0200 " From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>. Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required' Message-ID: <42C0E3F2.7000209@spam.com>    Ken Robinson a crit:   H > 40 points... If you still want to see my resume, you can find it on my" > web site <http://www.rbnsn.com/>   Shame on me!* There is another line missing in the form:  & "answering the QUIZZ gives 60 points".   So you are eligible, Ken :-)  D AFA NY IC, we over here still do not know if Tony Bair will suggest 7 New-York City to join the ECC (European Comics Club)...    D.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 12:39:00 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com  Subject: Re: Hurd an Alpha fanC Message-ID: <1119901140.266858.277440@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   E you have to ask yourself how the Inquirer would know if Mark Hurd was - an Alpha fan or not, we don't even know that.   C Folks I am a  fan of ancient history, and I go to Renaissance fairs  does not mean I live there.    sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:35:56 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Hurd an Alpha fan4 Message-ID: <42c07247$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:G > you have to ask yourself how the Inquirer would know if Mark Hurd was / > an Alpha fan or not, we don't even know that.     K Perhaps The Inquirer is better connected higher up in HP than you give them L credit for. Or perhaps Deep Impact had a test run at the Inquirer reporter's head.  Hard to know which.  E Either way, since Hurd was a no-show at Boot Camp, which was a big PR H mistake IMHO, those who care to speculate are free to continue to do so.         --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 15:13:11 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com  Subject: Re: Hurd an Alpha fanC Message-ID: <1119910391.753516.324430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    John were you there?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:30:21 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: Hurd an Alpha fan+ Message-ID: <42C09A12.BE17BCC@teksavvy.com>    John Smith wrote: M > Perhaps The Inquirer is better connected higher up in HP than you give them N > credit for. Or perhaps Deep Impact had a test run at the Inquirer reporter's > head.  Hard to know which.    H I read the inquirer article more as a wishful thinking article than a "IE heard it through the grapevine". Recall the timing: not long after Mr F Turner of IslandCo mentioned there was little demand for IA64 things.   E Where there may be some thinking is HP considering going through with E the promised EV79 to give Alpha a couple more years of life, at least G until 2007-2008 when the future of VMS on either that IA64 thing or the  8086 will be known.    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 17:43:09 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com  Subject: Re: Hurd an Alpha fanC Message-ID: <1119919389.265712.303260@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   G Well we could always give the man a chance, its not un heard of (no pun 
 intended).G Mark Hurd had an employee meeting after being here for a total of about 6 4 hours and he did several things that I really liked.  C 1. He said that he did not know the answer to some of the questions E instead of giving us some bull answer that would have been impossible  for him to know anyway. G 2. He recognized that every situation is different and that one aproach  does not always work  F 3. he seemed like a guy you could talk to and not someone trying to be a movie star  1 4. he is spending time learning about the company   # Sounds like good first steps to me.  Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:45:32 -0500 , From: "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@NOSPAMarrl.net> Subject: Re: Hurd an Alpha fan0 Message-ID: <UbqdnYoBxuA6AF3fRVn-rA@comcast.com>  / "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message  . news:42c07247$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net...$ > susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:H >> you have to ask yourself how the Inquirer would know if Mark Hurd was0 >> an Alpha fan or not, we don't even know that. >  > I > Perhaps The Inquirer is better connected higher up in HP than you give   > themD > credit for. Or perhaps Deep Impact had a test run at the Inquirer  > reporter's > head.  Hard to know which. > G > Either way, since Hurd was a no-show at Boot Camp, which was a big PR J > mistake IMHO, those who care to speculate are free to continue to do so. >  >  >     M Mr. Hurd was invited to the bootcamp by I suspect more than 1 person.  I was  L one of them and was told in reply that his schedule didn't permit a trip to J Nashua at that time of the bootcamp.  I don't consider this a PR mistake. < The guy is probably booked solid for the foreseeable future.   Dave...    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:53:29 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: Hurd an Alpha fan, Message-ID: <42C09F7C.7FDFD8D2@teksavvy.com>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:H > 3. he seemed like a guy you could talk to and not someone trying to be > a movie star  C Sue, is that a jab at the previous CEO ???? :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)   3 > 4. he is spending time learning about the company  > % > Sounds like good first steps to me.      #4 is very important.   D Also, I think that bringing in outside people and letting folks likeH Winkler retire are also good steps. Using the same people who mismanagedG HP in a musical chair reorg would not fix the problems of HP. New blood , helps if the right people with opened minds.  E A big metric to also look at is who Hurd is surrounding himself with. B That will dictate how Hurd will be influenced by existing culture.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:01:51 +1000 # From: "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate> " Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic/ Message-ID: <42c06940$1@duster.adelaide.on.net>    Hi Guys   L Thanks for all the suggestions, I will try PROBE as it sounds close to what  I am looking for.   G The situation I am investigating is an Alpha using WASD is receiving a  M moderate number of hits according to the WASD log and real-time stats.  WASD  G is happy, VMS is happy but external users are complaining that at peak  E times, the pages load very slowly or, sometimes, not at all.  I have  H monitored the traffic on the router and the Alpha is receiving about 60 F concurrent web connections (peaking at over 200), WASD is managing an M average of 200 requests/minute (peaking at about 550) and trying to push out  6 about 250kbytes/minute through an ADSL 1.5M/256k link.  J So, by using monitor/system and other VMS tools and WASD monitoring I can I tell that VMS and WASD aren't stressed, but I am trying to calculate the  J peak outbound load to determine how much larger my outbound link needs to K be.  The router/WASD logs aren't quite enough - I want to be sure that the  $ IP stack is tuned correctly as well.   TIA   1 "Joe Bloggs" <JBloggs@acme.com> wrote in message  2 news:um00c1pt5iv9vo2d5ijkqushrblfc7gaag@4ax.com...C > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:23:18 +1000, "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate>  > wrote: >  >>Hi AllH >>System activity can be monitored in real time using monitor - is thereJ >>something similar for IP traffic using VMS7.3-1?  I would like somethingG >>like monitor/system so that I could see traffic in/out, queue length, M >>resource usage etc.  Can't find it in help monitor or tcpip help - perhaps   >>I  >>just missed it!  >>	 >>Thanks.  >  > you might have a look at7 > ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/probe.zip  > 1 > or perhaps the  V4 Freeware CD(s) for the same.  >  >  >  > PROBE, UTILITIES, @ > Alpha & VAX Ethernet monitor / statistics / capture / playback > ? > Probe is a network monitoring tool which allows the real-time ? > capture and/or graphical display of Ethernet traffic activity G > and the tabular formatting of previously collected frame and/or data.  >  > The main features are: > E > o  Extensive user-specified attributes allow fine-grained filtering @ > and enhanced presentation of raw or computed traffic data. Key' > attributesare dynamically modifiable.  > C > o  Sampling can be performed unattended (in batch for example) by @ > setting a cycle of alternating collection and sleep intervals.* > Statistics are produced for every cycle. > = > o  Automatic and static symbolic representation of Ethernet  > addresses. > D > o  Optional (complete or partial) frame data capture and playback. > 2 > o  Automatic line counters (collision) tracking. > < > o  Runs on both VAX and Alpha/AXP. Heavily speed-optimized4 > high-priority multi-process MACRO32 user-mode codeC > (assembled on VAX, compiled on AXP) for capture/display. Playback  > program in VAXC. > D > Please consult the files AAREADME.* and the help documentation for
 > details. >   > Complete source code included. > @ > Provided executables linked on VAX/VMS 5.5-2 and Alpha/VMS 6.2 > G > This is release 2.3B. Check Internet sites FTP.WKU.EDU or FTP.SPC.EDU G > (or other VMS archives) for eventual newer versions of this software.  > Q > ===============================================================================  >  > THE AUTHOR > F > Comments, suggestions, questions and/or potential code-modifications > can be > directed to the author:  >  > Stephane Germain > 0 > via E-Mail at:  germain @ eisner . decus . org > = > (Support and development on a "time-permitting" basis only)  > Q > ===============================================================================  >  > COPYRIGHT NOTICE > F > This software is COPYRIGHT  1989-1997, Stephane Germain. ALL RIGHTS > RESERVED. G > Permission is granted for not-for-profit redistribution, provided all  > sourceF > and object code remain unchanged from the original distribution, and
 > that all" > copyright notices remain intact. >  > DISCLAIMER > 8 > This software is provided "AS IS". The author makes no > representations orG > warranties with respect to the software and specifically disclaim any 	 > implied F > warranties of merchantability or fitness for any particular purpose. > R > ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:03:15 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> " Subject: RE: Monitoring IP trafficR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB650E91@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message------ > From: Gremlin [mailto:not-here@all.mate]=20  > Sent: June 27, 2005 5:02 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ > Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic >=20	 > Hi Guys  >=20B > Thanks for all the suggestions, I will try PROBE as it sounds=20 > close to what=20 > I am looking for.  >=20? > The situation I am investigating is an Alpha using WASD is=20  > receiving a=20: > moderate number of hits according to the WASD log and=20 > real-time stats.  WASD=20 > > is happy, VMS is happy but external users are complaining=20 > that at peak=20 I > times, the pages load very slowly or, sometimes, not at all.  I have=20 9 > monitored the traffic on the router and the Alpha is=20  > receiving about 60=20 J > concurrent web connections (peaking at over 200), WASD is managing an=20> > average of 200 requests/minute (peaking at about 550) and=20 > trying to push out=20 8 > about 250kbytes/minute through an ADSL 1.5M/256k link. >=20  	 [snip...]     @ Apologies if this was already mentioned in this thread, but slowG application performance has been know to have been caused by a mismatch E between the network switch and the Ethernet adapter e.g.  One side is + half duplex while the other is full duplex.   B Other mismatch symptoms can be very bizarre. I once had a Cust sayB normal IP traffic was fine, but when they did large transfers likeF backups and/or ftp copies, overall performance would drag down to whatC amounted very slow performance. Fixing the mismatch instantly fixed H their problem (and likely improved the normal traffic which they thought was ok).   Anyway, its worth a check.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:34:51 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>  Subject: Re: My Multia Adventure+ Message-ID: <42C09B2A.F88F6FBE@comcast.net>    jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote:  > I > I never really tried using the serial ports for anything since I didn't H > have the special splitter available at the time, and the serial ports,F > as I recall, just didn't work under VMS.  So sorry, I can't say what > might display there.    H I just happened to have a reflection session connected there. I actuallyF forgot about needing the splitter. At least COM1 seems to send data on* the usual pins. Gotta lookup the pinout...  . > Usually a low/dead battery provides more funH > items, like POST failures.  When I replaced the batteries in mine manyG > years ago (1997-8, I think) they both started working quite reliably. H > When I got the right memory for them, they actually ran for weeks at a) > time without incident, under VMS or NT.   E Do you recall what is the "right" memory? ...and what it will accept, - beyond what the doc.'s indicate, if anything?   H > The 166MHz fixed CPU units were by far the most common ones; they wereF > liquidated via Onsale.com (where I got mine) among others; brand new# > but no memory and dead batteries.   E Guess I'll have to find batteries for both the Jensen and the Multia. 1 The Jensen at least is stable. The Multia is not.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:44:03 -0500 ( From: Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net>  Subject: Re: My Multia Adventure2 Message-ID: <6OCdncISasi2S13fRVn-ug@speakeasy.net>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote:  > I >>I never really tried using the serial ports for anything since I didn't H >>have the special splitter available at the time, and the serial ports,F >>as I recall, just didn't work under VMS.  So sorry, I can't say what >>might display there.   >  > J > I just happened to have a reflection session connected there. I actuallyH > forgot about needing the splitter. At least COM1 seems to send data on, > the usual pins. Gotta lookup the pinout... >   G Com1 may work with a normal cable, and Com2 may be on otherwise unused  H pins of that port.  I'm still pretty sure that VMS won't use the serial  ports, even if SRM will.   > . >>Usually a low/dead battery provides more funH >>items, like POST failures.  When I replaced the batteries in mine manyG >>years ago (1997-8, I think) they both started working quite reliably. H >>When I got the right memory for them, they actually ran for weeks at a) >>time without incident, under VMS or NT.  >  > G > Do you recall what is the "right" memory? ...and what it will accept, / > beyond what the doc.'s indicate, if anything?   G Going from memory; I'm pretty sure it was gold contact (opposite of my  H AS200 which has tin contacts), 70ns, #x36 true parity.  I had a pair of I Compaq 64MB (16x36) server simms that took one to the book maximum 128MB  I RAM that worked fine.  I think the other had four 16MB (4x36) SIMMs that  7 probably came through ebay; I don't remember the maker.   H I doubt I have any of these kicking around any more; everything I still I have that uses SIMMs needs tin, not gold contacts, but I'll dig around a   bit.   >  > H >>The 166MHz fixed CPU units were by far the most common ones; they wereF >>liquidated via Onsale.com (where I got mine) among others; brand new# >>but no memory and dead batteries.  >  > G > Guess I'll have to find batteries for both the Jensen and the Multia. 3 > The Jensen at least is stable. The Multia is not.  >   D I'm sorry you're having problems.  Hopefully one of the links Keith B posted can help; the service info manual should have error codes, I troubleshooting, jumper settings, etc, and I'm pretty sure the UDB's had  H a failsafe boot and floppy boot mode to refresh the firmware if needed. H   Is the ISA error you're getting preventing getting to the SRM command I prompt?  Maybe if you unplug the battery for a bit, then plug it back in   to retry...   G Also, to test, you can always just string up three 1.5v batteries (the  F original battery was a 4.5v alkaline cube, I think, but better check) G and plug it in using the pigtail from the original battery; no need to  , wait to get the real thing in order to test.  F BTW, are you running the unit vertical in its stand?  That one stupid I chip on the bottom of the main logic board can get very hot very fast if  G it is not adequately cooled, and running flat means its not adequately  G cooled.  You can run with the cover off for a little bit, but I always  7 aimed a desk fan at it when I did that just to be safe.      Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:00:43 -0600  From: Dan Notov <d9nn0@hp.com> Subject: Re: Old DEC Award? , Message-ID: <42c05aeb$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   Didier Morandi wrote: H > I'm looking for an old DEC award to invent a document to celebrate my K > CSA and CSE so that I will be proudly able to hang them above my head in   > my office. > J > Old Timmers remember those wooden plates on which a metallic plate read E > something pleasant and totally useless to celebrate a DEC Employee.  > & > Google pictures search did not help. > I > If one of you have such nice award, please scan it and send the pic to  . > me at didier dot morandi at freesurf dot fr. > 	 > Thanks,  >  > DidierI > VMS CSA 2003, VMS CSE 2005, Certified 2005 OpenVMS Technical Symposium   > Completer  > :-) ) Send an e-mail to danno at large dot com.    I may have something for you.    /danno   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:15:03 -0700 4 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program% Message-ID: <1119896037.629113@smirk>   " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:  0 > Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable?  ; Indeed!   I love VMS so much that sometimes it is difficult 6 to tell where "work" ends and "hobby" begins, however.0 Perhaps that should be called "obsession".   :-)  ' > How do you use your Hobbyist license?   5 For use on machines I have rescued from dumpsters and ; surplus sales.   Some I keep around to run old peripherals, 7 some I refurbish and give to deserving students (in the > broadest sense of the word).   Running VMS on my laptop (using@ SIMH) on an airplane is a great conversation starter.   It gives= me the opening I need to give a complete stranger a VMS sales  pitch.   :-)  9 I need to learn more about clusters, so I will be using a 3 couple of my smaller machines (see below) for that.   F > Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that?  = Via the Montagar web site.   Some of my machines may get used 9 only occasionally, so I often find that I need to get new  licenses.   :-)    > Do you get the CD's?  ; I buy a couple of the VAX CDs from Montagar each year to go > with the systems I give away.   I occasionally buy VAX CONDIST; kits on ebay.   For Alpha kits, I have my own base kit, but 0 borrow a friend or client's layered product kit.  ) > Give me one improvement you would make    ? Make it possible for people with a hobbyist license to download 9 kits.   By this, I mean removing any legal uncertainties. < You might want to restrict the downloads to those with valid- hobbyist licenses, but that is just a detail.   " > What type of machine do you use?   At the moment:< SIMH, MicroVAX II, two VAX 3300, VAX 3400, two VAX 4000-200,; two MicroVAX 4000/VLC, three MicroVAX 3100/76, AlphaStation < 200 4/166, AlphaStation 600 5/266, two AlphaStation 500, and> an AlphaBook(!).   Needless to say, few of these are turned on> at any time and many are sitting on shelves in a storage unit,? just waiting to be needed.   Some are simply waiting for a good  home.   I > The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity A > how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?   ? It's too early to tell, but I suspect that the early users will > be people whose employer is getting Itaniums, and want to keep on top of the technology.    Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:08:17 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program6 Message-ID: <00A45EC3.469B0FAE@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  f In article <1119740832.130195.64800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com writes: >Dear Newsgroup, > G >Talk to me about the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.  I really can't explain : >why I am asking, you just have to trust me in a good way. > E >THE PROGRAM IS NOT AT RISK AT ALL I AM DOING PERSONAL RESEARCH - VMS ) >Engineering is commited to this program.    Good news, that. > E >I remember when we were at DECUS and Pat J. got up and asked the DEC B >listens panel about the concept, there was a huge applause and itG >seemed like the right thing to do. I have to be honest and say all the D >friends of the DFW LUG knew what was coming and we were holding ourE >breath. So the DFW LUG, Dave Cathy and John Wisniewski in particular G >took on the work of doing pretty much the whole program.  And now Dave ' >alone.  Anyway I am making myself sad.  > G >I have a few questions for this newsgroup.  You can reply here or send 4 >me mail either to my hotmail account or my hp mail. > / >Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable?   N I _would_ find it very valuable if I didn't work for an appropriately enrolledN educational system, which makes it workable for me to use an EDU license on my home boxes.    > & >How do you use your Hobbyist license? > E >Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that?  >Do you get the CD's?  > C >Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobby G >costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to 
 >put them.  L The ability to download software distributions for everything covered on the hobbyist license PAK set.    > ! >What type of machine do you use?    Islandco Alpha EV56, 533 mhz   > H >The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity@ >how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?  J I think it might take them a while, in general, to get going on Integrity.J Hobbyist licenses have been terrific for giving a second lease on life to I ex-commercial-service equipment, dumpster rescues, etc; I don't see those H supported Itanium boxes getting cheaply into private hands very quickly.  M But I expect that among the uses for those boxes will be porting PD software.    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:09:43 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program+ Message-ID: <42C0A357.9C482FAB@comcast.net>   , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > h > In article <1119740832.130195.64800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com writes: > > 
 > > [snip] > > E > >Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobby I > >costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to  > >put them. > N > The ability to download software distributions for everything covered on the > hobbyist license PAK set.   < Y'know, I can't help but wonder if "they" would go for this:  D An FTP site where your user name is your "DECUS" id as registered onH your PAKs and your password would be the checksum from your OpenVMS baseF license (sans "-"'s), VAX, Alpha or I64. The account creation could beC automated, driven by the code that issues the PAKs. In the UAF, the E account's /EXPIRATION date would be the same as that on your VMS BASE  license PAK replica.  H ...and in case you're wondering, yes - I'm thinking something similar to this:    ftp.alpha.openvmshobbyist.org  Alpha distro.'s and LPs    ftp.vax.openvmshobbyist.org  VAX distro.'s and LPs    ftp.i64.openvmshobbyist.org  I64 distro.'s and LPs   # ...which of course leaves room for:    ftp.x86-64.openvmshobbyist.org x86-64 distro.'s and LPs   :-)   B Dave C. (or Pat J. - let him know): If you're listening, e-mail me= privately. I'd be willing to do the coding if you can provide C specifications and if HP will go for it. How to demung the reply-to  address should be obvious.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:38:32 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> " Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program, Message-ID: <42C0AA08.36D31B04@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: F > An FTP site where your user name is your "DECUS" id as registered onJ > your PAKs and your password would be the checksum from your OpenVMS baseH > license (sans "-"'s), VAX, Alpha or I64. The account creation could be5 > automated, driven by the code that issues the PAKs.    I support this 99.7362%   B There is the issue of which checksum/password to use when you have multiple licensed systems.  G If the Montagar folks's database allow, perhaps it would email the user C which system-id to use as password (instead of checksum). With a "I D forgot my password" web page which will email the original owner the login information.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 18:54:13 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com ( Subject: Point of clarification on ISV'sB Message-ID: <1119923653.370190.20510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  * John Smith's signature reads the following  F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.   G As a point of clarifcation, we are regularly getting new ISV's and that F number is growing not dwindling.  It is unfortunate that some partnersD choose not to continue but the number is NOT dwindling.  We have hadE nearly 50 new partners (not applications) in the last 2 months.  Each + partner can have more than one application.   D I see little point in negative bad mouthing of VMS in a public forum' and then saying you are a VMS advocate.    Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:51:33 -0500 ( From: Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net>8 Subject: Re: Problem with spam filtering in Mozilla/CSWB2 Message-ID: <C92dnfSi3pFwSl3fRVn-rg@speakeasy.net>   jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote:  > Dave, I >      thank you most kindly; I'll try that tonight.  I didn't even think C > about the panacea.dat file; it gets hit when CSWB starts, but not F > apparently during a junk marking or unmarking operation (per the set > watch anyway). > E >      Too bad about the training, but perhaps its not a bad thing to < > start fresh with current spam for the mill.  Thanks again. >  > Rich >   @ Well, that didn't work.  This is truly wierd.  After moving the E training.dat and panacea.dat files to a holding location (on another  E disk), I started CSWB.  As soon as I entered mail (which took a long  G time) a new panacea.dat file was created, but no training.dat file.  I  E then downloaded new mail (which CSWB is configured to do a junk mail  F check against as it comes in, though all it does is mark it as junk), * and I got several messages marked as junk.  E Since there's supposedly no training database, I'm not sure how that   happened...   I I then tried to take a junk-marked file and set it to not be junk.  Disk  B activity, no change.  Try to mark an un-caught spam as junk, same E result; some disk activity, but the file status does not change.  No  A training.dat file was created, at that time or upon exiting CSWB.   G I'll work on it more tomorrow.  Thanks anyway, Dave, perhaps this will  1 lead to a fix even if it wasn't the problem here.    Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:25:03 +0000 - From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> 8 Subject: Re: Problem with spam filtering in Mozilla/CSWB* Message-ID: <42C0DF2F.3020306@bigpond.com>  ! Rich Jordan was overheard to say:  > jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote:  >  >> Dave,J >>      thank you most kindly; I'll try that tonight.  I didn't even thinkD >> about the panacea.dat file; it gets hit when CSWB starts, but notG >> apparently during a junk marking or unmarking operation (per the set  >> watch anyway).  >>F >>      Too bad about the training, but perhaps its not a bad thing to= >> start fresh with current spam for the mill.  Thanks again.  >> >> Rich  >> > B > Well, that didn't work.  This is truly wierd.  After moving the G > training.dat and panacea.dat files to a holding location (on another  G > disk), I started CSWB.  As soon as I entered mail (which took a long  I > time) a new panacea.dat file was created, but no training.dat file.  I  G > then downloaded new mail (which CSWB is configured to do a junk mail  H > check against as it comes in, though all it does is mark it as junk), , > and I got several messages marked as junk. > G > Since there's supposedly no training database, I'm not sure how that  
 > happened...  > K > I then tried to take a junk-marked file and set it to not be junk.  Disk  D > activity, no change.  Try to mark an un-caught spam as junk, same G > result; some disk activity, but the file status does not change.  No  C > training.dat file was created, at that time or upon exiting CSWB.  > I > I'll work on it more tomorrow.  Thanks anyway, Dave, perhaps this will  3 > lead to a fix even if it wasn't the problem here.  >  > Rich >   ? I had problems on two different systems, one at work and one at B home.  After getting one working, I tried the other, doing exactly) the same sequence but still had problems. 4 Exit SWB, delete panacea.dat, delete training.dat;*,6 copy nla0: training.dat, check that the protections on the files are OK, then restart.    Regards, Dave.  --  D David B Sneddon (dbs)  VMS Systems Programmer  dbsneddon@bigpond.comD Sneddo's quick guide ...     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/D DBS freeware     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:56:49 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?4 Message-ID: <42c07876$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>  
 DavidT wrote:  > whoa there everyone  >  > Just went to HP's website  > F > NEW!!! 1.3Ghz EV7 cpu ... so someone somewhere is continuing work onG > Alpha chips (unless they are sitting on shelves waiting for the right  > time to market them)     Do you have the url for this?      --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:03:35 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?4 Message-ID: <42c078c2$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>   Bob Koehler wrote:> > In article <42BA195A.5C043447@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera% > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: 2 >> "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" wrote: >>> " >>> I have just a sinple question. >>> D >>> What would it take for HP/Compaq and Intel to rekindle the Alpha >>> processor. >>D >> The Return of Jesus, The Father's Voice from the sky, and perhapsF >> several major cataclysms to get the world's attention (can you say, >> "9-11"? ..."tsunami"?)  >> > E >    All of which may lead to good arguments for particular software: - >    VMS, nut not for a particular processor.     K So perhaps OVMS Engineering ought to publish a functional spec (open source H spec) of what VMS (at a higher level) wants to see once the boot processJ hits a certain critical juncture and then let anybody interested write theL bootstrap for a particular processor architecture (Power, Sparc, Opteron, or
 whatever).  L That way VMS benefits from OVMS Engineering still retaining tight control onH the core operating system and interfaces, while the actual 'port' at the< boot level on different hardware is mostly out/open sourced.   --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:48:42 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11c1avapsruohbb@corp.supernews.com>   John Smith wrote:  > DavidT wrote:  >  >>whoa there everyone  >> >>Just went to HP's website  >>F >>NEW!!! 1.3Ghz EV7 cpu ... so someone somewhere is continuing work onG >>Alpha chips (unless they are sitting on shelves waiting for the right  >>time to market them)  H I didn't really follow up on this initially, but did this evening.  All + I found was GS1280 using 1.3 GHz EV7z CPUs.   H Haven't been keeping up on the EV7 CPUs, and don't remember the various I speeds released.  But the EV7z is old (and disturbing) news, what we got   in place of an EV79 shrink.   4 So, from that perspective, nothing new and exciting.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:39:14 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: SAN & DFU+ Message-ID: <42C09C32.C1DC8966@comcast.net>    alex wrote:  >  > Ken, >  > Thanks for your reply.H > You are quite right, our intensions are to use DEFRAG in a VMS-clusterC > environment and we are asking if its working in such environment.   @ I should think it would, but I'd question DFG's value in the SANC environment. Unless the disk clusters are the same size as the RAID F "chunks", seems to me that there'd be some substantial conflict tryingA to shuffle extents around if the extents are less than a "chunk".    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:35:30 +0200 " From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>= Subject: Support *for* Oracle Rdb on CHARON-VAX Emulators ??? ' Message-ID: <42C0E1A2.6010307@spam.com>    Good morning all,   D 26C in Valbonne this morning. Sunny lovely day, as it was so often  during the DEC ECC time...  : I found today in dba.openvms.org the following information; (http://dba.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/06/24/6977052)   / "Support for Oracle Rdb on CHARON-VAX Emulators ! Friday June 24 2005 @ 10:29AM EDT % This press release is slightly dated.     D Software Resources International (SRI) has developed a range of VAX G emulator products that prolong the use of HP OpenVMS VAX applications.  C CHARON-VAX products emulate complete VAX systems on OpenVMS Alpha,  F Linux, or Windows platforms, allowing applications, layered products, ( tools, and middleware to run unmodified.  B Oracle Corporation supports VAX versions of Oracle Rdb and Oracle G CODASYL DBMS and their related products running on CHARON-VAX provided  E that any problems reported can be reproduced by Oracle Support on an  B actual VAX. Customers migrating from VAX to a CHARON-VAX emulated F environment should check with their Oracle account managers regarding F licensing. Oracle's Global Pricing and Licensing rules apply. In most I cases, Oracle license and service agreements are transferred to the same  - number of CHARON-VAX processors at no charge.   G For more information about CHARON-VAX emulators and migration from VAX  F to CHARON-VAX see the website http://WWW.CHARONVAX.com , or contact a : reseller sales representative at 336-661-0890, ext. 106 / A cwgraham@SalemAutomation.com for benchmark performance data from  , Oracle's testing of Rdb on CHARON-VAX 6630."    Should not this article entitled0 Support *OF* Oracle Rdb on CHARON-VAX Emulators?  C Because, otherwise, it seems to say that *now* Charon-VAX supports  G Oracle Rdb, which is not the truth, afaik. Charon-VAX "supports" every  J software "supported" on a real VAX, just because it emulates the hardware.   What do you think?   D. --  4   Didier MORANDI - VMS Expert and SAP CRM Consultant4 13 chemin du Gu - 1213 Petit-Lancy (GE) Switzerland2      Phone: +336 7983 6418 - www.didiermorandi.com   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jun 2005 17:55:12 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3iass0FklopdU1@individual.net>   5 In article <d9pd4s$in7$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, + 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: X > In article <3iak0qFkk3cfU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:8 >> In article <d9p5dm$fvn$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,6 >> 	m.kraemer@biors6a.gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: >> >  M >> > And all this is exactly what only IP lawyers and brainwashed politicians E >> > find "legal" or "natural". If I buy a product, e.g. a car, it is K >> > mine and I can do withit whatever I like (except pirating of course).  C >> > Volkswagen or GM or BMW has no say anymore, and rightfully so. ; >> > Why should a software product be treated differently ?  >>  J >> Because you didn't "buy" the software, you licensed it.  And as for theH >> car industry, they, too, have latched onto this model.  It's called a >> lease.    > > > OK, but as a car customer I have the choice to lease or buy.  @ Not in most cases.  You have to accept whatever they offer or go@ elsewhere.  They have no requirement to accomodate your desires.  6 > And my choice does not depend on legal issues but on. > financial ones or on my personal situation.   ? Actually, it depends much more on what the owner of the product @ wants to offer.  He is free to sell the car, lease the car, giveA the car away, or set it on fifre in front of his showroom.  After 3 all, it is his property. (see where this is going!)   = > With their restrictive "licensing" schemes software makers   > do not offer this choice.   ; And the have no responsbility to.  If you don't like it, go < elsewhere.  They don't hold a gun to your head and say "sign here".  > >                             And if this is the current law,   < It's called contract law.  Two parties are free to negotiate whatever they want.    > it should be changed,   @ Why?  What would further government involvement accomplish?  TheB problem seems to be that you think your way is the best and if the@ law was changed it would change in your favor.  There is nothing% I can see that supports this premise.   E >                       IMHO. (OK, I'm aware IP lobbyists would fight  > that until the bitter end)  G So, should I take it you don't believe in IP?  You believe that my time E and labor are not mine to do with as I choose?  Without IP rights you F end out like the collapsed Russia.  Decades of life where work got youC nothing more than those who chose to work less resulted in breeding E all ambition out of the entire country.  The collapse was inevitable. @ If I could write an OS as good as VMS with all the features thatB everyone is likely to want how likely is it that I will put in the@ necessary work if in the end I will get no more than the guy who' sweeps the floor at the end of the day?   F > *No* restrictions on the use of software, except pirating of course.  D That's strictly a contract matter.  I am sure if you were willing toE pay enough you could negotiate such a contract with most any company. 5 But to expect it for nothing really is kind of silly.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jun 2005 18:06:31 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3iath7Fhmt60U1@individual.net>   5 In article <d9pch7$ihb$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, + 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: X > In article <3iaikfFkj28jU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>  F >> In most cases it involves accounting for and paying a fee for everyD >> copy that goes out.  If you don't charge the recipient where does0 >> the money to pay the royalty fee come from?   > / > But that's a monetary issue, not a legal one. ) > They could do as any other vendor does: < > royalty costs are distributed over the whole product line.  D So, you would agree to pay extra for the base OS in order to supportF the various users who use the parts you don't have any need for?  See,D it goes both ways.  If you bundle everything then everything is moreB expensive.  If you let people only pay for what they need/want the  product becomes more attractive.  B > Or how do you think e.g. Sun can give away their Solaris 8..10 ?. > Do you think they don't pay any royalties ?   A At this stage of the game, I doubt that royalties to other people B make up any sizeable amount of the cost of Solaris. I haven't seen@ the release of the source code yet so I don't know that there isD anything in there that still draws royalties.  After all, they offerC nothing that is not also offered by Linux and the various BSD's and B they don't pay anyone royalties.  Is it so hard to assume that SUNA long ago removed anything that was still proprietary beyond their 	 own labs?    >  >> If they have negotiatedH >> an agreement that lets them give it away to hobbyists it seems ratherG >> counter-productive to take actions that might lead to someone in the  >> chain changing their minds. >>   > ; > Sure, it may give them excuses to stop this extra service $ > for a couple of hobbyist weirdo's.  C Can I take it from this that you are not a hobbyist  but a business B user and you think HP should let you use their IP to help you make; money but they should not be afforded the same opportunity?   D > Still I don't see any business or legal logic that would hinder HP; > (or any company) to give away stuff for free even if they ) > have licensed parts of it from others.    C The license they have negotiated with the original owner of the IP.   J They are a business. They are in business to make money, not give it away.F They are already doing more for the hobbyist community than most other
 companies.  H I am amazed at this concept of "Thanks for letting us use your IP for noJ cost.  Now open up your wallet and let me have some lunch/beer money too."   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 11:12:00 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadB Message-ID: <1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:E > In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, ) > 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  > > G > > Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down?  > ( > Because we have a warped court system.  @ I beg to differ in this case! GCT is a magnificent building thatE deserves to be protected. Not as good as Penn Station was, but still,  pretty good.  7 > > Then why are companies sued for defective products?  > I > For the same reason they are sued when some idiot does something really G > stupid with their product that it was not designed for and gets hurt. J > (Remember, we have the court system that awarded several million dollars1 > for loss of psychic ability after  a CAT-scan.)     G Well, there's a down side to everything. And that's either the fault of 1 the court system and/or some particular bad laws.     J > >                                                    Why does Exxon have. > > to "use" its Esso trademark to protect it? > C > Because trademarks are a totally different concept with different G > rules entirely.  A more important question would have been what right D > did the government have to tell them they had to change their name< > in the US?  But that isn't generic to the discussion.  :-)    E Depends what you mean by "right". Rights are decided by people. Since F people will in general differ on what's right, we have government. NotF perfect by a long shot, but certainly better than anarchy. And even ifG there is some ultimate set of "God-given rights", people have no way to G know exactly what these are and will differ on what they are anyway. So F ultimately they are decided by people and are subject to discussion as to how things "should be".  = People who succeed in the US do so, in part, because the U.S. C Government, as imperfect as it is, has established and maintains an E environment in which businesses and individuals can succeed. For this F reason I find it not unreasonable that *something* is owed to the govtF for this. What exactly that should be I'm not here to say. But I don'tD believe the "I did it all on my own so I can do what I want with it"A story. And in a similar, but slightly different vein, some sports G person once observed, "Some people are born on third base and act as if  they had hit a triple."   E Yes, ownership means a lot. I'm just trying to say that it is not the G be all and end all that you appear to be saying. If I misunderstood you E about this, I apologize. In this particular case it there may well be D no law to prevent HP from dropping VMS. But maybe there *should* be.  < And even in the computer biz, there are restrictions. ExportD restrictions for national security, for one. Anti-trust restrictions (ask BG!) for two.  K > >                                             Why can't GM make sell cars ' > > that don't have pollution controls?  > G > For the same reason I can't drive on the I81 at 150 mph.  Our elected F > government decided that it was in the public good to limit pollutionG > and it isn't worth the cost of making two differnt models in order to E > service those places that have less strict requirements. (it should F > be noted that even after both the US and Europe had strict pollutionE > requirements VW still manufactured the old Beetle without emissions F > control in Mexico for sale in those places that still allowed them.)  < I was just making a point with this one, as with the others.   > F > >                                     Why can't a developer build anK > > office building ON HIS OWN LAND when it is zoned as a residential area?  > I > Because it affects others than himself.  And the one legitimate purpose K > of government is to protect it's citizenry.  He is free to convince those I > he would affect that his plan is good for them and the zoning should be 
 > changed.  - And eliminating VMS would also affect others.    > 7 > > Copyright laws are another example. Patents expire.  >  > Copyrights also expire.  >  > > J > > There are tons of laws about restrictions on ownership. There are even2 > > some things you are not allowed to own at all! > G > Most restrictions are about protecting others from the stupid acts of @ > the few.  Exactly how does this apply to the licensing of VMS?    F My primary point is that ownership does not automatically mean you canE do what you want no matter what. I, for one, am very glad GCT was not G torn down. It's too bad they couldn't save Penn Station, but I digress.     G Some restrictions are for the public good: patents, copyrights, zoning, A which have nothing to do with protecting anyone from stupid acts.      >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.  . True, but the sheep are doing better nowadays.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:12:43 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download0 Message-ID: <11c0g8dr5c1hu36@corp.supernews.com>   Michael Kraemer wrote:  ; > Sure, it may give them excuses to stop this extra service $ > for a couple of hobbyist weirdo's.D > Still I don't see any business or legal logic that would hinder HP; > (or any company) to give away stuff for free even if they ) > have licensed parts of it from others.    A What part of "royalty for each copy issued" don't you understand?   G It's one thing for HP to give a copy of something when it doesn't cost   them any money.   F It's quite another when they give it away for free, but have to pay a  royalty regardless.   0 Not saying I like it, but I can respect reality.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jun 2005 18:40:10 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3iavgaFkiveqU1@individual.net>   B In article <1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,' 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  >  >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:F >> In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,* >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >> >H >> > Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down? >>) >> Because we have a warped court system.  > B > I beg to differ in this case! GCT is a magnificent building thatG > deserves to be protected. Not as good as Penn Station was, but still,  > pretty good.  F Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I have no artistic sense at allD and see most things that others consider "great art" as just so muchD junk. (Like the recent fiasco in Central Park)  That being the case,C I see no reason to limit ownership rights because of someone else's F artistic sense.  If you think it should be preserved, buy it yourself.H At what ever price the owner asks.  If you think it is worth it you willG raise the money but if not, what right do you have to tell me I have to @ incur the monetary loss in order to please your aesthetic sense?   > 8 >> > Then why are companies sued for defective products? >>J >> For the same reason they are sued when some idiot does something reallyH >> stupid with their product that it was not designed for and gets hurt.K >> (Remember, we have the court system that awarded several million dollars 2 >> for loss of psychic ability after  a CAT-scan.) >  > I > Well, there's a down side to everything. And that's either the fault of 3 > the court system and/or some particular bad laws.  >  > K >> >                                                    Why does Exxon have / >> > to "use" its Esso trademark to protect it?  >>D >> Because trademarks are a totally different concept with differentH >> rules entirely.  A more important question would have been what rightE >> did the government have to tell them they had to change their name = >> in the US?  But that isn't generic to the discussion.  :-)  >  > G > Depends what you mean by "right". Rights are decided by people. Since H > people will in general differ on what's right, we have government. NotH > perfect by a long shot, but certainly better than anarchy. And even ifI > there is some ultimate set of "God-given rights", people have no way to I > know exactly what these are and will differ on what they are anyway. So H > ultimately they are decided by people and are subject to discussion as > to how things "should be". > ? > People who succeed in the US do so, in part, because the U.S. E > Government, as imperfect as it is, has established and maintains an G > environment in which businesses and individuals can succeed. For this H > reason I find it not unreasonable that *something* is owed to the govtH > for this. What exactly that should be I'm not here to say. But I don'tF > believe the "I did it all on my own so I can do what I want with it"C > story. And in a similar, but slightly different vein, some sports I > person once observed, "Some people are born on third base and act as if  > they had hit a triple."  > G > Yes, ownership means a lot. I'm just trying to say that it is not the I > be all and end all that you appear to be saying. If I misunderstood you G > about this, I apologize. In this particular case it there may well be F > no law to prevent HP from dropping VMS. But maybe there *should* be.  H Again, I ask why?  If Steven King wanted to take the original manuscriptD for "It" or "Carrie" or any other of his many successes (mind you, IF only ever liked one of his stories and tend not to bother reading mostG of what he writes) and burn it in his fireplace so that no one ever saw F it, is that not his right?  What will become of VMS at the end of it'sE days is stuill unknown.  Like others, I would like to think that when D the owner at that point (and we also have no way of knowing who thatD may be) will just release it all to the public trust.  But they haveH no real obligation to do so.  And, this whole discussion may be academicE as, if most of us have our way, VMS will last for a long time to come B and will only die when it is no longer needed or wanted by anyone.   > > > And even in the computer biz, there are restrictions. Export& > restrictions for national security,   C Another good reason not to let the government get involved any more D than they already are.  Do you know how many VAXen running Unix were> found behind the Iron Curtain when it finally fell? (Both were restricted export items!)   F >                                     for one. Anti-trust restrictions > (ask BG!) for two.  A I don't necessarily agree with most anti-trust legislation.  Most > monopolistic practices involve breaking enough other laws thatA special ones (especially ones without teeth) are never necessary.    > L >> >                                             Why can't GM make sell cars( >> > that don't have pollution controls? >>H >> For the same reason I can't drive on the I81 at 150 mph.  Our electedG >> government decided that it was in the public good to limit pollution H >> and it isn't worth the cost of making two differnt models in order toF >> service those places that have less strict requirements. (it shouldG >> be noted that even after both the US and Europe had strict pollution F >> requirements VW still manufactured the old Beetle without emissionsG >> control in Mexico for sale in those places that still allowed them.)  > > > I was just making a point with this one, as with the others.  G Actually, GM does "make" and sell cars without pollution controls as do G most of the other car manufacturers worldwide.  You can't drive them on E the street, but they are free to make and sell them.  I have piles of C catalogs for parts for my cars that specifically say if I put these D parts on my car it will no longer be legal on the street.  They have" no problem making or selling them.   >  >>G >> >                                     Why can't a developer build an L >> > office building ON HIS OWN LAND when it is zoned as a residential area? >>J >> Because it affects others than himself.  And the one legitimate purposeL >> of government is to protect it's citizenry.  He is free to convince thoseJ >> he would affect that his plan is good for them and the zoning should be >> changed.  > / > And eliminating VMS would also affect others.   G Matter of opinion.  It is doubtful that more than .002055% of americans 3 would even notice it if it went away tomorrow.  :-)    >  >>8 >> > Copyright laws are another example. Patents expire. >> >> Copyrights also expire. >> >> >K >> > There are tons of laws about restrictions on ownership. There are even 3 >> > some things you are not allowed to own at all!  >>H >> Most restrictions are about protecting others from the stupid acts ofA >> the few.  Exactly how does this apply to the licensing of VMS?  >  > H > My primary point is that ownership does not automatically mean you can# > do what you want no matter what.    @ True, up to a point.  SO it looks like you need to find a way to> convince the Congress that saving VMS is somehow int he publicA interest.  Considering that they don't even condsider it valuable @ enough to use themselves, I don't hink you'll have much success.  G >                                  I, for one, am very glad GCT was not I > torn down. It's too bad they couldn't save Penn Station, but I digress.   E And as I said above, I don't agree.  But in any case, I don't see why G someone else should bear the cost of pleasing your aesthetics.  That is  a flaw in our legal system.    >  > I > Some restrictions are for the public good: patents, copyrights, zoning, C > which have nothing to do with protecting anyone from stupid acts.   I True, their purpose is to support ambition and not stifle it.  Otherwise, + we will end out like the rest of the world.    bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 27 Jun 2005 19:04:40 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3ib0u8FkgqtgU1@individual.net>   3 In article <IllOEQ28YiZf@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:b > In article <d9p2co$ett$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: > A >> It certainly isn't correct (and very unwise) what the OP does: ? >> offering free downloads of stuff which should be distributed 2 >> by HP and authorized organisations (DECUS etc). >>  6 >> OTOH I don't see the economical damage to HP, sinceG >> it's the hobbyist distribution anyway, and its official distributors B >> charge little more than their administration costs for the CDs.B >> And plz, leave me alone with these hollow legalistic "it is IP"? >> arguments. If there's no economical damage involved I see no  >> reason to enforce IP. > 7 > Whether you see a reason to enforce it is immaterial. + > What matters is whether HP sees a reason.  > + >> Coming back to some of the quoted stuff: H >> If I buy used equipment, then the first owner has paid the paychecks ? >> of the producer, so there's nothing wrong with selling it to = >> somebody else. And I see no real difference between a car, 7 >> a hobbyist CD or even a PAK. Its all used equipment.  > ; > No, a PAK is not equipment.  A PAK is not even a license. B > A license grant by HP is accompanied by a PAK, but those licenseB > rights do not transfer if the PAK is moved.  Even if you legallyB > transfer a VMS license to someone else, they have to turn in the< > PAK and get a new PAK as a result of the license transfer. > C >> Its mainly the IP lobby which forced law makers to produce laws, = >> which, if applied to cars, would force customers to return A >> their cars after use to the factory, instead of buying cheaper  >> used ones, if they so wish. > F > The crucial phrase is "if applied to cars".  Nobody is attempting toF > apply software licensing rules to car purchases.  Cars are hardware.  F Yes, but as I pointed out, the current common practice is exactly whatC he denies above.  Current practice for a lot (maybe the majority at ? this point) of car deals is a lease and you never own the car!!    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 13:59:15 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download3 Message-ID: <tpe7ZLwqV8G1@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <d9p3uq$fhg$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:\ > In article <11bpqr7eeabv01d@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>  K >> I believe the issues involve some licensed technology that has been put  G >> into parts of VMS.  That's why some layered products are NOT in the   >> hobbyist program. >>   > * > This is another thing I don't understandB > (well, I believe I'm thinking common sense here, not IP lawyer),. > as long as they don't give away source code,& > why can't they give away that stuff.L > They're allowed to sell it, even if it has been licensed from 3rd parties,$ > so why not give it away for free ?: > Does licensing include that they *must* charge for it ?   F Licensing based on a particular dollar value per copy does not requireF that, but does require that they pay the charge if they do not collect it from the customer.    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 14:10:00 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download3 Message-ID: <M+ieWbjq9VMy@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3iass0FklopdU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:7 > In article <d9pd4s$in7$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, - > 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:   > >> With their restrictive "licensing" schemes software makers  >> do not offer this choice.   > = > And the have no responsbility to.  If you don't like it, go  > elsewhere.  D In particular, go to the Free Software Foundation mentioned earlier.  B They have an entirely different economic model.  If you want GNAT,C you cannot license it in the HP style.  If you want VMS, you cannot  license it in the FSF style.  B The owner has the authority to decide how IP will be used.  If youB dislike both the HP and FSF style, you can invent a third for that software which you write.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:25:22 +0200 2 From: Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski <m_roguski@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download9 Message-ID: <20050627222522.2da26b29.m_roguski@yahoo.com>   G > How?  As I pointed out we shared software before the Gnu Public Virus G > just fine.  GNU has actually hurt the system as there are many people H > with great skills who will not touch GNU Software with a ten-foot poleI > who would provide their services if there was no such restriction (such  > as the BSD Style license).  J Sorry, but it still doesn't convinced me it hurt anyone or anything. It's L just like saying the same about Microsoft... GPL is just a form of license, F you may choose to spread what you wrote under it or any other license.H I more concerned about large scale software companies, who protect, and I sometimes legally claim technical innovations by patenting it (as usual,  D Microsoft comes to mind, but that's not my point). I just wonder if I somebody ever patented the wheel, I know MS owns patent  for doubleckick  I (I'm not kidding, I'll find the article for you)... I feel convinced it's I a threat: you write and publish something innovative, then somebody else  J patents it, will BSD style license protect your rights in that case? ThinkI also about patent dispute of DEC with Intel over ALpha, and how did THAT   end...  G > who created the idea that computer programs (as IP) have no intrinsic I > value and must be considered as belonging to the people (hmmmm..  where & > have we heard this rhetoric before?)  I Stallman said many things, so as Gates, Jobs and other VIP... But still,  M I find blaiming GNU folks for all the software piracy in the world, a little  L too obcured. First, Stallman is just one person who pops in or out somewhereM making a noise, and GPL was actually conceived by many people (have you ever  F studied it, btw), not mentioning that open source community is pretty M large for being represented for just one weird guy (I preffer Linus Torvalds  L myself)... Plus, the terms "abandonware" or "warez" were in use longer than L GNU, as well. Of course we'd long discuss where does IP start, and where it K ends, but I believe it would still be pretty pointles- it's usually is set  % by someone, who has better lawyers...   L And I stress it again, I do condemn, what our "friend" here has done, I was K as much pissed off when somebody has used a photograph I've made, of course J witout my permission- with excuse "hay man, loosen up, it's just a photo".  H But I don't blame open source and GNU, I blame mental state of people...   Rambo    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 15:26:19 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadC Message-ID: <1119911179.790552.101040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > In article <1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,) > 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  > >  > >  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:H > >> In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,, > >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > >> >J > >> > Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down? > >>+ > >> Because we have a warped court system.  > > D > > I beg to differ in this case! GCT is a magnificent building thatI > > deserves to be protected. Not as good as Penn Station was, but still,  > > pretty good. > H > Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I have no artistic sense at allF > and see most things that others consider "great art" as just so muchF > junk. (Like the recent fiasco in Central Park)  That being the case,E > I see no reason to limit ownership rights because of someone else's H > artistic sense.  If you think it should be preserved, buy it yourself.J > At what ever price the owner asks.  If you think it is worth it you willI > raise the money but if not, what right do you have to tell me I have to B > incur the monetary loss in order to please your aesthetic sense?  @ Well, I don't know the details of the GCT. Maybe the owners wereD compensated. I don't know. But I'm glad it's still there. We're just@ going to differ on this one. Also, the train station has a greatG economic value for getting commuters to and from NYC. So, it's not just G artisitic in value. Also, many, many advertisements contain pictures or @ footage using GCT as a backdrop, giving more benefits. It's alsoE valuable as a tourist atraction, bringing yet more money to the city.  It's more than just "art".  G In one sense it's just a zoning decision, but admittedly a very focused  one.     >  > > : > >> > Then why are companies sued for defective products? > >>L > >> For the same reason they are sued when some idiot does something reallyJ > >> stupid with their product that it was not designed for and gets hurt.M > >> (Remember, we have the court system that awarded several million dollars 4 > >> for loss of psychic ability after  a CAT-scan.) > >  > > K > > Well, there's a down side to everything. And that's either the fault of 5 > > the court system and/or some particular bad laws.  > >  > > M > >> >                                                    Why does Exxon have 1 > >> > to "use" its Esso trademark to protect it?  > >>F > >> Because trademarks are a totally different concept with differentJ > >> rules entirely.  A more important question would have been what rightG > >> did the government have to tell them they had to change their name ? > >> in the US?  But that isn't generic to the discussion.  :-)  > >  > > I > > Depends what you mean by "right". Rights are decided by people. Since J > > people will in general differ on what's right, we have government. NotJ > > perfect by a long shot, but certainly better than anarchy. And even ifK > > there is some ultimate set of "God-given rights", people have no way to K > > know exactly what these are and will differ on what they are anyway. So J > > ultimately they are decided by people and are subject to discussion as > > to how things "should be". > > A > > People who succeed in the US do so, in part, because the U.S. G > > Government, as imperfect as it is, has established and maintains an I > > environment in which businesses and individuals can succeed. For this J > > reason I find it not unreasonable that *something* is owed to the govtJ > > for this. What exactly that should be I'm not here to say. But I don'tH > > believe the "I did it all on my own so I can do what I want with it"E > > story. And in a similar, but slightly different vein, some sports K > > person once observed, "Some people are born on third base and act as if  > > they had hit a triple."  > > I > > Yes, ownership means a lot. I'm just trying to say that it is not the K > > be all and end all that you appear to be saying. If I misunderstood you I > > about this, I apologize. In this particular case it there may well be H > > no law to prevent HP from dropping VMS. But maybe there *should* be. > J > Again, I ask why?  If Steven King wanted to take the original manuscriptF > for "It" or "Carrie" or any other of his many successes (mind you, IH > only ever liked one of his stories and tend not to bother reading mostI > of what he writes) and burn it in his fireplace so that no one ever saw H > it, is that not his right?  What will become of VMS at the end of it's    D I have no problem with that. No essential information is lost. But IF don't think he should be allowed to burn all copies of his books. ThenG all the information would be lost. Sources and images are not the same, 5 however. I suppose you could reverse engineer though.     G > days is stuill unknown.  Like others, I would like to think that when F > the owner at that point (and we also have no way of knowing who thatF > may be) will just release it all to the public trust.  But they haveJ > no real obligation to do so.  And, this whole discussion may be academicG > as, if most of us have our way, VMS will last for a long time to come D > and will only die when it is no longer needed or wanted by anyone.     >  > > @ > > And even in the computer biz, there are restrictions. Export' > > restrictions for national security,  > E > Another good reason not to let the government get involved any more F > than they already are.  Do you know how many VAXen running Unix were@ > found behind the Iron Curtain when it finally fell? (Both were > restricted export items!)     ? Well, someone, maybe it wasn't you, mentioned that there are no G ownership restrictions in the computer biz. I was just countering that. F I am not, in general, a fan of restrictions on trade unless there is aD very good reason. National security certainly ranks high for me. AndG some VAX systems were running there. So? No restriction is perfect. The D Space Shuttle blew up, twice (okay, broke up the second time)! There still going to send up more.   > H > >                                     for one. Anti-trust restrictions > > (ask BG!) for two. > C > I don't necessarily agree with most anti-trust legislation.  Most @ > monopolistic practices involve breaking enough other laws thatC > special ones (especially ones without teeth) are never necessary.     E I see this as government at least trying or pretending to act for the D public good. Yes, govt does a lot of stupid and bad things. Like theF odd/even licesne plate scheme during the gas-line days (1973, 1979) toF name a minor grievance of mine. But people succeed in the U.S. in part@ because govt. has done many things right. Who's going to protectC ownership? The govt.! If someone starts cranking out free copies of C software, who's going to stop it? You have to give govt. credit for # that. They do do some things right!    >  > > N > >> >                                             Why can't GM make sell cars* > >> > that don't have pollution controls? > >>J > >> For the same reason I can't drive on the I81 at 150 mph.  Our electedI > >> government decided that it was in the public good to limit pollution J > >> and it isn't worth the cost of making two differnt models in order toH > >> service those places that have less strict requirements. (it shouldI > >> be noted that even after both the US and Europe had strict pollution H > >> requirements VW still manufactured the old Beetle without emissionsI > >> control in Mexico for sale in those places that still allowed them.)  > > @ > > I was just making a point with this one, as with the others. > I > Actually, GM does "make" and sell cars without pollution controls as do I > most of the other car manufacturers worldwide.  You can't drive them on G > the street, but they are free to make and sell them.  I have piles of E > catalogs for parts for my cars that specifically say if I put these F > parts on my car it will no longer be legal on the street.  They have$ > no problem making or selling them.   OK.    >  > >  > >>I > >> >                                     Why can't a developer build an N > >> > office building ON HIS OWN LAND when it is zoned as a residential area? > >>L > >> Because it affects others than himself.  And the one legitimate purposeN > >> of government is to protect it's citizenry.  He is free to convince thoseL > >> he would affect that his plan is good for them and the zoning should be
 > >> changed.  > > 1 > > And eliminating VMS would also affect others.  > I > Matter of opinion.  It is doubtful that more than .002055% of americans 5 > would even notice it if it went away tomorrow.  :-)     G But without VMS our military will have a harder time protecting us! :-)     : > >> > Copyright laws are another example. Patents expire. > >> > >> Copyrights also expire. > >> > >> >M > >> > There are tons of laws about restrictions on ownership. There are even 5 > >> > some things you are not allowed to own at all!  > >>J > >> Most restrictions are about protecting others from the stupid acts ofC > >> the few.  Exactly how does this apply to the licensing of VMS?  > >  > > J > > My primary point is that ownership does not automatically mean you can$ > > do what you want no matter what. > B > True, up to a point.  SO it looks like you need to find a way to@ > convince the Congress that saving VMS is somehow int he publicC > interest.  Considering that they don't even condsider it valuable B > enough to use themselves, I don't hink you'll have much success.    F OK. But the gov't's military depends on VMS! So they have an interest.    I > >                                  I, for one, am very glad GCT was not K > > torn down. It's too bad they couldn't save Penn Station, but I digress.  > G > And as I said above, I don't agree.  But in any case, I don't see why I > someone else should bear the cost of pleasing your aesthetics.  That is  > a flaw in our legal system.     8 Maybe they were compensated? I'll see if I can find out.    K > > Some restrictions are for the public good: patents, copyrights, zoning, E > > which have nothing to do with protecting anyone from stupid acts.  > K > True, their purpose is to support ambition and not stifle it.  Otherwise, - > we will end out like the rest of the world.     = Ah, so you agree there is some good that flows from govt. OK.   F I understand your concerns about govt. abuse and such. I think that is@ an important concern. However, much good comes from govt (no oneF notices the engine when it runs well and quitely!) and I think it is aF good thing to try to make govt better. The U.S. is an awesome economicA power, and I think govt. should get at least some credit for that & (certainly not all credit, of course!)  D Relax, man. This is just a discussion and we are "honorable debating) opponents". I respect your point of view.      >  > bill >  >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:05:13 +0200 . From: Stefaan A Eeckels <tengo@DELETEMEecc.lu>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download: Message-ID: <20050627220513.79964d6a.tengo@DELETEMEecc.lu>   On 27 Jun 2005 15:43:36 GMT ) bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:   ; > GNU has actually hurt the system as there are many people H > with great skills who will not touch GNU Software with a ten-foot poleI > who would provide their services if there was no such restriction (such  > as the BSD Style license).  > But there are also many people with great skills that will not; touch BSD licensed software with a 10-foot pole for similar  ideological reasons.   --   Stefaan  --  5 As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning, 9 and meaningful statements lose precision. -- Lotfi Zadeh     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:02:00 +0200 . From: Stefaan A Eeckels <tengo@DELETEMEecc.lu>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download: Message-ID: <20050627220200.3d1a45cd.tengo@DELETEMEecc.lu>  ( On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:31:08 +0000 (UTC)) m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote:   F > *No* restrictions on the use of software, except pirating of course.  F Actually, that is pretty much the case for a lawfully obtained copy ofD software bought as a "product" in a store (in the USA). You have theE right to use the software as you see fit, and modify it so that it'll A run on your "machine" (see 17 USC 117). IMHO, The wording doesn't 6 explicitely limit you to a single machine (but IANAL):  A (a)  Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.— ; Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an E infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or C authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer  program provided: 6   (1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created asA   an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in H   conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or   
 Take care,   --   Stefaan  --  5 As complexity rises, precise statements lose meaning, 9 and meaningful statements lose precision. -- Lotfi Zadeh     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:54:56 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <42C091C7.904F9734@teksavvy.com>   Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski wrote: C > Allow me to put my two cents here. I disagree, I neither tolerate D > software piracy (hay, I don't even have Windows, Office, Photoshop > etc...) on my PC computers.     G The hobbyist programme is not about piracy. The licences are legitimate G and there is no "stealing". The question is about distribution of stuff $ we are allowed to use as hobbysists.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:07:14 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <42C094A9.833D1FFD@teksavvy.com>   Michael Kraemer wrote:< > royalty costs are distributed over the whole product line.  E Once more: the whole royalty issue has already been dealt with and is   applied to the issuance of PAKs.  E Motif is royalty free for the hobbyist programme because the owner of H VMS doesn't collect money. (Motif is now open sourced for non commercialD platforms, but royalties required for systems whose operating system costs money to buy.   B Also consider that, especially for VAX, a large number of softwareH packages arfe for mature softwrae no longer develpped. Consider that theF CDA converters, once Digital, then sold to some german outfit who then* let it drop are now on the freeware disks.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:51:10 +1200 $ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download4 Message-ID: <8w5we.10879$U4.1400469@news.xtra.co.nz>  < "Adam Stouffer" <adam_stouffer@hotmail.com> wrote in message# news:mN3we.5245$Bn6.969@trndny08...  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > G > > Well, when you own VMS you will be free to use such an arrangement. F > > But right now, it belongs to HP and they, too, are free to licenseG > > it any way they wish.  None of this gives anyone the right to steal  > > HP's IP. > >  > > bill > >  > ; > No its called copyright infringement and is a civil case.  > @ > http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=steal   <Quote> L A felony conviction under Section 506(a)(1) requires the government to proveL that the defendant reproduced or distributed copyrighted works with a retailE value of at least $2,500.59 Alternatively, prosecutions under Section L 506(a)(2) require the government to prove that the defendant, in any 180-dayL period, reproduced or distributed copyrighted works with a retail value over> $2,500 for felony prosecutions60 or $1,000 for misdemeanors.61  	 <Unquote>   E Granted, there are limitations in the above statement but, once those L conditions are met, the "felony" definition looks like quite a bit more than civil suit to me.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:10:25 GMT 7 From: John Malmberg <malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 2 Message-ID: <liXve.7687$kL3.1361@news.cpqcorp.net>  
 LJB wrote:  4 > I don't see anything in Set File that would apply.   $ HELP SET FILE/attr  - > I need to change my PC generated file from:  >  > RMS FILE ATTRIBUTES  > ' >         File Organization: sequential  >         Record Format: fixed >         Record Attributes:" >         Maximum Record Size: 512 >         Longest Record: 512 7 >         Blocks Allocated: 4, Default Extend Size: 384 . >         End-of-File VBN: 1, Offset: %X'00B6'# >         File Monitoring: disabled   >         Global Buffer Count: 0  7 All records are 512 bytes long and packed together, and G no record delimiters are implied that should be added when the records   are displayed.   > to:  > RMS FILE ATTRIBUTES  > ' >         File Organization: sequential ! >         Record Format: variable   G Each record has a varying length controlled by some data inside of the  G record.  Maximum record length and record attributes may determine how   to decode each record.  - >         Record Attributes:  carriage-return   G Each record when displayed or access is implied to end with a carriage  E return.  Such records usually do not contain any binary data and are   known as plain text records.  I When records contain binary data, there is usually no need to specify an  * implied carriage control record attribute.  # >         Maximum Record Size: 2300  >         Longest Record: 22666 >         Blocks Allocated: 12, Default Extend Size: 0/ >         End-of-File VBN: 11, Offset: %X'0190' # >         File Monitoring: disabled   >         Global Buffer Count: 0 > H > I got this info with analyze/rms. I think the problem is record format4 > and size. I don't think Set File can change those.  I Set File is the only tool that I know of supplied by OpenVMS that can do  3 that with out modifying the internal file contents.   F Set file/attr=(RFM=VAR, RAT=CR, MRS=2300, LRL=2266) !Where the actual E MRS and LRL should be based on what you know to be based on what you  H wrote in the file.  Usually with variable format files, slightly larger  values will work.    > With dump/hex I see E > two bytes preceeding each record that give its size. I'm faithfully  > reproducing those bytes.  I I would have to get read one of the fine manuals to determine if the MRS  J affects how many bytes are used for the record length or not in this case.  F Usually files with Record Attributes of a Carriage Control imply that H they only contain printable ASCII characters.  A program that just uses G RMS to read the program can usually handle several of the formats that  " an ASCII file can have on OpenVMS.  F If there is really no binary data in the records, that is the OpenVMS I TYPE command will properly display the file with the correct attributes,  I then the file on the PC side probably can just be created with CR-LFs or  G (LFs only for some applications) to separate each record, and then FTP  : ASCII transfers would create a usable copy on either side.  E In that case you should also be able to manipulate the file with any  F text editor on OpenVMS and on quite a few text editors on the PC side ) depending on what application created it.   B And since PCs and VAXen do not have any documented BINARY floatingH point representations in common, unless the application made one up, it I is not likely that numeric binary data in a file would be usable between   the two machines.   G A PC is going to be using IEEE floating point or it is not going to be  F able to use the floating point hardware on the system very well.  The H VAX does not support using IEEE floating point, and it is unlikely that D a VAX based application will be implementing IEEE floating point in 
 emulation.  F Now if you were transferring files between a PC and an OpenVMS system D running on ALPHA or I64, then it would be possible to transfer IEEE  binary between them.  @ Based on pass experience with moving such data between CAD type G applications on multiple platforms, I suspect that your data file is a  D plain text file that uses some character(s) like a space, comma, or H semicolon to delimit fields of a plain text records, and that ASCII FTP L transfers are all that were ever were needed to move it between the systems.  D It is almost impossible that binary data for coordinate or geometry I would be in the correct format on two different platforms, especially if  % they represent floating point values.   H You actually have to do quite a bit of extra programming on both the PC F side and the OpenVMS side to make a program dependent on the variable E length with implied carriage control attribute format.  Usually only  G pure binary is used for a compressed format, or pure ASCII is used for  H an uncompressed format, neither which requires platform specific coding.  I I would recommend taking a step back and see if anything other than just  + using FTP ASCII transfers is really needed.   I The ZIP and UNZIP tools also know how to automatically interchange plain  D text files in ZIP archives from other systems to OpenVMS, which for I large enough files can shorten the transfer time.  You should ZIP on the  H platform where the source files are really at and unzip on the platform F where the files are to be placed to prevent the type of problems that  you are chasing.   -John ! malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp  Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 13:54:06 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 3 Message-ID: <kl9WvQiutBbQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ] In article <1119879391.993793.112240@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ljbartel@juno.com writes: I > I'm struggling to write a sequential variable length record file from a H > PC for input to a VAX program. I've done a byte by byte comparison andG > the file looks identical to the file generated by the VAX but its not H > working. If I use Exchange/net/fdl=xyz.fdl the file gets damaged and IB > can't even open it in an editor. It changes from fixed length toI > variable length but seems like my record lengths are being ignored. Any  > ideas how to accomplish this?   F    You need to get a lot more detail.  What meta-data are you actuallyB    adding on the PC?  What technique are you using to transfer the    file between the VAX and PC?   =    If you simply write the file on the PC using ordinary line F    terminators (\n in C), and trasnfer the file to the VAX using ASCIIG    mode FTP, the file will become sequential variable length records on     the VAX.   C    If you are accessing the file as a disk service from the VAX you (    may find things a bit more difficult.  F    In any case, you're probably waisting your time.  Because of RMS asC    a layer in the file system you can probably access a stream file E    (the PC standard format) using the same code on the VAX that would #    access a variable length record.    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 13:57:32 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 3 Message-ID: <bBXec50LHXKE@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <1119883569.563110.181610@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> writes: H > The file is full of VAX floats, integers and pic. I need to write themD > just the way the VAX needs them. I've used both NFS and Binary FTPF > without luck. Like I said the files appear identical on the VAX whenG > comparing them using dump/hex. Only the true VAX generated ones work. 6 > Exchange or Convert don't seem to be able to fix it.  I    Are you using DUMP or DUMP/RECORD to view the bytes?  The former will  2    show the record meta-data, the latter will not.  7    What does a directory/full tell you about the files?   G    Even though the data is binary, you may be able to transfer the file D    in ASCII mode, to get the meta data right.   You will encounter aE    problem if some of the data bytes happen to look like Windows line $    separators, but it's worth a try.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 14:00:10 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 3 Message-ID: <JQ0Z8N$iBfHO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <1119892007.141623.7230@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> writes:  >  > RMS FILE ATTRIBUTES  > ' >         File Organization: sequential  >         Record Format: fixed >         Record Attributes:" >         Maximum Record Size: 512 >         Longest Record: 512 7 >         Blocks Allocated: 4, Default Extend Size: 384 . >         End-of-File VBN: 1, Offset: %X'00B6'# >         File Monitoring: disabled   >         Global Buffer Count: 0 > to:  >  > RMS FILE ATTRIBUTES  > ' >         File Organization: sequential ! >         Record Format: variable - >         Record Attributes:  carriage-return # >         Maximum Record Size: 2300  >         Longest Record: 22666 >         Blocks Allocated: 12, Default Extend Size: 0/ >         End-of-File VBN: 11, Offset: %X'0190' # >         File Monitoring: disabled   >         Global Buffer Count: 0  2    set file /attribute=(rfm:var,mrs:2300,lrl:2266)   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 14:01:27 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 3 Message-ID: <0h6$ZH7cB6HD@eisner.encompasserve.org>   A In article <exXve.10205$B_3.8000@fe05.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:  > LJB wrote:I >> I don't see anything in Set File that would apply. I need to change my  >> PC generated file from: > ...  >  > What about CONVERT/FDL= ?   G    No.  That would change the bytes to changefrom one type of meta-data H    to another.  He's got the right bytes in his meta-data, he's just gotA    the wrong description of the meta-data in the file attributes.    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 14:13:01 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 3 Message-ID: <KpT4H6M6A05Z@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <1119883569.563110.181610@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> writes: H > The file is full of VAX floats, integers and pic. I need to write themD > just the way the VAX needs them. I've used both NFS and Binary FTPF > without luck. Like I said the files appear identical on the VAX whenG > comparing them using dump/hex. Only the true VAX generated ones work.   ' How do they compare using DUMP/HEADER ?    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:50:14 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 2 Message-ID: <WLYve.7701$bG3.6200@news.cpqcorp.net>  ] In article <1119879391.993793.112240@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ljbartel@juno.com writes: H :I'm struggling to write a sequential variable length record file from aG :PC for input to a VAX program. I've done a byte by byte comparison and F :the file looks identical to the file generated by the VAX but its notG :working. If I use Exchange/net/fdl=xyz.fdl the file gets damaged and I A :can't even open it in an editor. It changes from fixed length to H :variable length but seems like my record lengths are being ignored. Any :ideas how to accomplish this?  G   Why not transfer the stream format or the stream LF format sequential E   file over to OpenVMS VAX, and CONVERT/FDL it there?  You might well G   pre-process any data within the file to match the expectations of the D   target OpenVMS VAX application (eg: floating point), but you couldC   easily leave the file format conversion to DCL and its utilities.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 13:07:30 -0700 From: "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC C Message-ID: <1119902850.879920.117900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    That's exactly what its doing.  C I think I've found someone to write a tool for me that will read my D file and re-write it basically unchanged to variable length records.5 They will read the two byte record length I've given.    LJB    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jun 2005 13:10:14 -0700 From: "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC C Message-ID: <1119903014.808113.105980@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F I certainly see more info using dump/header. I was using dump/hex when I said my file identical.    LJB    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:37:43 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC = Message-ID: <42c06397$0$78280$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>   
 LJB wrote:H > I got this info with analyze/rms. I think the problem is record formatH > and size. I don't think Set File can change those. With dump/hex I seeE > two bytes preceeding each record that give its size. I'm faithfully  > reproducing those bytes.  G Records are word, i.e., 2 bytes, aligned.  The record is padded with a  0 zero byte if it contains an odd number of bytes.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:20:01 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC + Message-ID: <42C0A5C1.9F64BC80@comcast.net>    ljbartel@juno.com wrote: > I > I'm struggling to write a sequential variable length record file from a H > PC for input to a VAX program. I've done a byte by byte comparison andG > the file looks identical to the file generated by the VAX but its not H > working. If I use Exchange/net/fdl=xyz.fdl the file gets damaged and IB > can't even open it in an editor. It changes from fixed length toI > variable length but seems like my record lengths are being ignored. Any  > ideas how to accomplish this?   F Y'know, I'd have to question why you'd want to. Any application on VMSC that attempts to access the file should understand *ANY* RMS format H (unless the programmer went to great lengths to circumvent RMS, then all bets are off).  H Is it brash to assume that the record might contain line-feed charactersH or other "control" characters, and that therefore Stream-LF would not beE useful? If such is not the case, ASCII transfer mode should provide a 5 sufficient conversion. Otherwise, you're kinda hosed.   F That said, when writing the file, track this statistic: longest recordC length. Then, as other posters have suggested, transfer the file as F BINARY and use SET FILE/ATTR=(RFM=SEQ,LRL=x) where "x" is the longtest/ record length you saved while writing the file.   F Transfer the file via FTP to VMS, then use RSHELL to send the SET FILEA command (takes a bit of set up to create the trusted relationship > between the two machines, but that prevents sending clear-text passwords).    My $0.02...    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:57:06 -0700 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 0 Message-ID: <BEE618A2.103AC%roktsci@comcast.net>   On 6/27/05 6:36 AM, in articleJ 1119879391.993793.112240@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "ljbartel@juno.com" <ljbartel@juno.com> wrote:  I > I'm struggling to write a sequential variable length record file from a H > PC for input to a VAX program. I've done a byte by byte comparison andG > the file looks identical to the file generated by the VAX but its not H > working. If I use Exchange/net/fdl=xyz.fdl the file gets damaged and IB > can't even open it in an editor. It changes from fixed length toI > variable length but seems like my record lengths are being ignored. Any  > ideas how to accomplish this?  >  > thanks > LJB  > K Binary files on a PC are stream files. If the files were originally created K on the PC then there must be some sort of record terminator character, or a K 16 bit record length at the beginning of each record. In this case you will = have to write a program to do the conversion on the VMS side.   D If the file was originally written on a VMS system as an unformattedI variable length record binary file and you transferred it to the PC, then L you have literally lost all the record formatting when you transferred it to the PC.   G Can you provide more information on how the file was initially created?    Jeff   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:01:53 -0700 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 0 Message-ID: <BEE619C1.103AE%roktsci@comcast.net>   On 6/27/05 10:06 AM, in article : 1119892007.141623.7230@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com, "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> wrote:  H > I don't see anything in Set File that would apply. I need to change my > PC generated file from:  >  > RMS FILE ATTRIBUTES  > ' >         File Organization: sequential  >         Record Format: fixed >         Record Attributes:" >         Maximum Record Size: 512 >         Longest Record: 512 7 >         Blocks Allocated: 4, Default Extend Size: 384 . >         End-of-File VBN: 1, Offset: %X'00B6'# >         File Monitoring: disabled   >         Global Buffer Count: 0 > to:  >  > RMS FILE ATTRIBUTES  > ' >         File Organization: sequential ! >         Record Format: variable - >         Record Attributes:  carriage-return # >         Maximum Record Size: 2300  >         Longest Record: 22666 >         Blocks Allocated: 12, Default Extend Size: 0/ >         End-of-File VBN: 11, Offset: %X'0190' # >         File Monitoring: disabled   >         Global Buffer Count: 0 > H > I got this info with analyze/rms. I think the problem is record formatH > and size. I don't think Set File can change those. With dump/hex I seeE > two bytes preceeding each record that give its size. I'm faithfully  > reproducing those bytes. >  > LJB  > H IF you have this information, then you can use EXCHANGE/NETWORK. Here isL how. Find a file on the VMS system that is in the proper format, and do this command on it.  + $ANAL/RMS/FDL/OUT=SEQVAR.FDL <vms-filename>   ' Then on your PC file (now on the VAX)..   L $EXCHANGE/NETWORK/FDL=SEQVAR.FDL  <input-pc-filename>  <output-vms-filename>   Jeff   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:03:40 -0700 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 0 Message-ID: <BEE61A2C.103AF%roktsci@comcast.net>  B On 6/27/05 11:26 AM, in article exXve.10205$B_3.8000@fe05.lga, "Z" <Z@no.spam> wrote:   > LJB wrote:I >> I don't see anything in Set File that would apply. I need to change my  >> PC generated file from: > ...  >  >  > What about CONVERT/FDL= ?   E CONVERT/FDL= has some limitations. Use EXCHANGE/NETWORK/FDL= instead.    Jeff   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.358 ************************