1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 28 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 359       Contents:? Re: Add VAXELN to Hobbyist Program (Was: OpenVMS Hobby Program) 4 ANNOUNCEMENT - OpenVMS Technical Journal - June 20058 Can someone tell me what is Command Console Lun ( CCL) ?! Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP ! Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP ! Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP  ES47 won't power on % Re: European VMS Consultants required % Re: European VMS Consultants required % Re: European VMS Consultants required % Re: European VMS Consultants required % Re: European VMS Consultants required 5 Re: European VMS Consultants required... for HPS EMEA  Re: Monitoring IP traffic  Re: Monitoring IP traffic  Re: Monitoring IP traffic  Re: Monitoring IP traffic  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program # Re: Point of clarification on ISV's # Re: Point of clarification on ISV's # Re: Point of clarification on ISV's # Re: Point of clarification on ISV's # Re: Point of clarification on ISV's / Re: Problem with spam filtering in Mozilla/CSWB  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha? 
 Re: SAN & DFU 7 Sun does it again - moblie & low-cost unix workstations  US military and confidentiality # Re: US military and confidentiality # Re: US military and confidentiality # Re: US military and confidentiality ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download 0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 07:54:09 -0500B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)H Subject: Re: Add VAXELN to Hobbyist Program (Was: OpenVMS Hobby Program)3 Message-ID: <EqibQMB0+gcq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <11c0ru4d19oa56b@corp.supernews.com>, "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii_googlespam@yahoo.com> writes: > Simon Clubley wrote: > 2 >>> Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable? >>>  >>  L >> I've found it very useful over the years, but sadly I'm using it far lessM >> these days because my current hobbyist projects are robotics (and related) F >> based. I'm using a Linux system for development and control stationI >> purposes because of a lack of suitable software and hardware for VMS - L >> when was the last time that you could power up a VMS laptop in the middle >> of a field ? :-)  > S > Might this become another request for VAXELN to be added to the Hobbyist Program?  >   G I think that adding VAXELN to the program would be very useful for some I people, but I suspect that the hardware that it would run on would have a E form factor that was too big for my requirements. :-) (For my current I project, I'm looking at a board about 13-15 cm absolute maximum size with  USB Host support.)  E Since I also mentioned software, I should also be specific about what C exactly VMS is lacking for my requirements. Here are some examples:   E 1) The RTOS that I am using is called RTEMS. ( http://www.rtems.com ) H As with most RTOS's, you develop your application on a host platform andM use a cross compiler and other tools to build an image file that is installed  on the target platform.   J In this case the host environment is required to be Unix like, with a fullE range of Unix style tools and a GCC cross compiler toolchain. As I am J developing mostly in Ada, the GCC cross compiler must include Ada support.K I have been unable to build even a native Ada compiler using the publically F available tools as ACT (the author of the VMS GNAT port) use their own0 tools for the VMS port. This has come up before:  X http://groups.google.no/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=T9YhwTtvlL4U%40eisner.encompasserve.org  I where I discovered that even if I had succeeded in building a native GCC, 2 not all the required binutils changes were public.  A None of this even touches on the required next step of building a  cross-compiler. :-)   J 2) I use GTK for my GUI environment as there is a very good Ada binding toI the GTK toolkit: http://libre.act-europe.fr/GtkAda/ . The last version of ) GTK on VMS is V1. V2 has not been ported.   L 3) [This one is not a lack of software in VMS, but simply a different way ofK achieving the same goal that means that I would not have been able to use a ) common code base if developing under VMS]   L RTEMS does not have a USB stack, so I wrote a simple one for it. (It was farM quicker than understanding and trying to port one of the existing USB stacks)   E Unixes are very different in terms of device driver details, but very L similar in terms of overall concepts and general techniques. This meant thatG I was able to write one stack, with two lots of OS interface glue code, J debug it under Linux, and easily integrate it into RTEMS. I would not haveF been able to do that under VMS, with it's very different driver model.  M 4) I have a online documentation library of datasheets, hardware and protocol H specifications, reference manuals, etc. It's about 600MB in size, a goodI chunk of it is in PDF format, and I use it heavily when doing these types  of projects.  I I went through xpdf and gv before installing and using the Linux port of  H Acrobat Reader, which is _far_ superior to either of the first two. It'sJ disappointing that VMS has not got it's own port of Acrobat Reader by now.  K 5) This time around, I am looking at the various Electronics and CAD design L packages available for Linux. I have not yet fully settled on a set of toolsJ yet, but several of them require things like an up to date QT library, ie:H http://www.ribbonsoft.com/qcad.html . I do not know how easy it would be to port the others to VMS.   Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       7 Microsoft: The Standard Oil Company of the 21st century    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 08:01:01 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com = Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT - OpenVMS Technical Journal - June 2005 C Message-ID: <1119968097.977923.241740@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   @ It is my pleasure to announce the June 2005 issue of the OpenVMS Technical Journal.  G As always, we have a number of excellent articles for you to enjoy. You D may not know that the VTJ is a volunteer effort and hence a labor ofF love not only for the contributors, but for the larger community. ManyE thanks go to the core team of Warren Sander, our web master, and Mary F Marotta, our editorial lead. Special thanks go to Pat Nelson and SarahF Masella, who helped out with the editing this time around. Many thanks as well to all the authors.   B Some of the highlights in this issue include an article on PortingG OpenVMS to HP Integrity Servers by Clair Grant. This first-hand account G includes photographs and many inside jokes that those who were involved  will remember.  G Another interesting article is how threads are used in the Cluster Test @ Manager. Have you ever wondered how HP tests all those different3 configurations and parameter combinations? Threads!   G We have some excellent articles about products that run on OpenVMS. EMC A Legato NetWorker provides backup solutions and supports Oracle in G particular. LDdriver is a utility that creates virtual disks from files 7 or even blocks. Find out how to use both in this issue.   B OpenVMS is running more and more Open Source software. Python is aG scripting language that can be used to create web pages on OpenVMS. And G the article on Automatic Program Generation describes how MySQL and PHP D were used to provide an IT infrastructure for the Florida Democratic Party -- for free!  A We have articles about troubleshooting OpenVMS applications. Ruth ? Goldenberg, and Richard Bishop describe how Fatal Bugchecks are ? handled. Protecting and Monitoring OpenVMS Systems is all about  auditing and access security.   C Many people are considering porting to the Integrity platform. This D issue includes two good articles describing porting efforts. PortingF RPG describes how a compiler was ported to I64, and Porting TDMS givesF an overview of porting an application from VAX to Alpha, and then from
 Alpha to I64.   E We hope you enjoy this issue of the Journal. Let us know how you like  it/ -- or what you would like to see in the future.   F Please visit http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/index.html  for the complete issue.   
 Warm Regards, 
 Sue Skonetski  Editor   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 07:34:25 -0700 From: Don.Zong@gmail.comA Subject: Can someone tell me what is Command Console Lun ( CCL) ? C Message-ID: <1119969265.125550.285080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    and what is it for ? Thanks!   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 07:53:58 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) * Subject: Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP3 Message-ID: <vD0415Ef+aAA@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <42C09E62.7B88F22C@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:   >> FAL can open a file andJ >>    change its contents remotely, FTP can only transfer the whole thing.E >>    To get those capabilities TCPIP$FAL would have to be NFS based.  > G > That doesn't seem to follow. FAL need only understand the native file J > structure(s) of the host system, regardless of where those files reside.6 > NFS would be possible, but hardly recommendable IMO.  D    How are you going to open a file remotely and change its contentsB    using a tool that only transports entire files?  Do you plan toF    download the entire file, update it, and upload the entire results?  E    That's something that FAL and NFS can do, but FTP can't do.  I was B    under the impression you wanted a FAL style capability via FTP.  H    As for doing it as an extension, DEC and ISO have already defined it,@    but you won't be able to use it if one of the systems doesn't2    implement the extension, which is usually true.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:17:25 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> * Subject: Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP( Message-ID: <opss3bnbkpzgicya@hyrrokkin>  H On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:14:56 GMT, Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> wrote:  . > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, David J Dachtera wrote: >  >> Rob Brown wrote:  >>> + >>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Bob Koehler wrote:  >>> K >>>> In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506241757320.1028@localhost.localdomain>,   , >>>> Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes: >>>>> 3 >>>>> Could we also have DELETE/FTP and RENAME/FTP?  >>>> >>>>   create/directory/ftp ?  >>>  >>> I like that one too. >>3 >> $ RSHELL/USER=user/PASS=pass "mkdir newdir_spec"  >>! >> ...doesn't do it for you, huh?  > @ > %RSH-E-SERVNOTAVAIL, Remote service is not currently available > L > Oh, well.  I don't know why that is not running on the Linux box.  Is it   > dangerous? >  > K I have always disabled the 'r' commands on unix boxes connected to the net.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:14:56 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> * Subject: Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTPE Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506281107310.11147@localhost.localdomain>   , On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, David J Dachtera wrote:   > Rob Brown wrote: >>* >> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Bob Koehler wrote: >>p >>> In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506241757320.1028@localhost.localdomain>, Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes: >>>>2 >>>> Could we also have DELETE/FTP and RENAME/FTP? >>>  >>>   create/directory/ftp ? >> >> I like that one too.  > 2 > $ RSHELL/USER=user/PASS=pass "mkdir newdir_spec" >   > ...doesn't do it for you, huh?  > %RSH-E-SERVNOTAVAIL, Remote service is not currently available  F Oh, well.  I don't know why that is not running on the Linux box.  Is 
 it dangerous?      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 09:32:57 -0700% From: ksidibaba@gmail.com (ksidibaba)  Subject: ES47 won't power on= Message-ID: <3dd11af5.0506280832.7688dd1d@posting.google.com>    Hi all,   F we just received 2 ES47 as extensions to our already existing ES47 (inE order to have 2 4CPU systems). To avoid losing time at the customer's F site, we tried to power the systems on, after inserting the CPU boardsD in the ES47 drawers, without success. Can it be due to the fact thatD the systems are not yet partitionned? If yes, what would be a simpleE way to partition the systems as standalone systems, in order to check F if everything is working OK? the MBM is working, but no changes can be" made (error in accessing database) Thanks for any help!   Cheers,    Karim    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:34:50 +0200 + From: "Michel HERRSCHER" <mhc@herrscher.fr> . Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required6 Message-ID: <42c0ef88$0$1242$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>  ' Dans un message Didier MORANDI disait :    > All, > B > It seems that one of my Customers in France may soon be happy toF > receive big help from external VMS Old Timmers for a huge VAX and/or! > Alpha to i64 migration project.  > = > My personal view on the prerequisites is the following one:  > A > a) if you are a former DECcie, your badge # should be less than ( > 199'999 :-) : this gives you 20 points   0    > C > b) if you are not, you need more than 20 years of experience : 20  > points  E PDP ( since 74), VMS since 79 .... so let us just take VMS = 26 years    20 + 6*5 = 50  ;-)))     > @ > c) you need to be (more or less) fluent in English : 10 points   10   > A > d) you should accept any relocation (not necessarily in France. % > Customer has many sites): 10 points   L 10 or 0 ( there are several countries where my philosophy does not want I go ;-))   > G > e) you need to know if the EFI part of an i64 OpenVMS system disk may $ > experiment Windoz virus : 5 points   0    > G > f) you should have seen an Itanium system running VMS at least once : 
 > 5 points   5    > B > g) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Lyon in 2002 : 5 points   0    > G > h) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Amsterdam in 2003 : 5 points    0    > D > i) you attended the DECUS Europe Show in Munich in 2004 : 5 points   0    > 8 > j) you attended the VMS Sueposium in Nashua: 50 points   0   , and anwering the quizz is 60 Didier aid ;-))   > G > If you have 100 points minimum, you may send me mail with your resum + > at didier dot morandi at freesurf dot fr.   = Total is   :135 wouahhh I am reconsering a VMS revival  ;-)))        --   Michel HERRSCHER CONSULTANT   # Tel : +33450870912 Fax:+33450871741    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:02:33 +1200 $ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>. Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required4 Message-ID: <3z6we.10890$U4.1400328@news.xtra.co.nz>  . Didier MORANDI" <no@spam.com> wrote in message! news:42C06CEC.8010206@spam.com...  > All, > J > It seems that one of my Customers in France may soon be happy to receiveG > big help from external VMS Old Timmers for a huge VAX and/or Alpha to  > i64 migration project. > = > My personal view on the prerequisites is the following one:   @ You forgot the main one - work permit in EU. Scrap all the other2 points, they are immaterial if you can't get that.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:05:41 +0200 " From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>. Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required' Message-ID: <42C0F6C5.1080103@spam.com>    Lurker a crit:   B > You forgot the main one - work permit in EU. Scrap all the other4 > points, they are immaterial if you can't get that.  C Well, that point would be better answered off line, but what I can  C publicly say is that many IT temporary workers agencies faced that  3 problem and solved it in total legality since ages.   G Ask friends that you may have who used to contract in Switzerland, for   example.  % You know my email address, don't you?    D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:44:53 +1000 6 From: "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au>. Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants requiredX Message-ID: <8BAD914A0B8CA84C9E94187103A1AB9E05BE51@EX-TG2-PR.corporate.transgrid.local>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57BBD.A708F23F . Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable          -----Original Message-----) From: Didier MORANDI [mailto:no@spam.com]  Sent: Tue 6/28/2005 3:42 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com . Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required =20  Dave Froble a =E9crit:  K >> b) if you are not, you need more than 20 years of experience : 20 points  >=20 >=20A > 27 years.  Shouldn't I get 7 more points for the extra 7 years?   5 Sorry, Dave, one line disappeared from the QUIZ form.  Should read   H b) if you are not, you need more than 20 years of experience : 20 points#     every extra year gives 5 points    :-)    D.    J So even with David's extra 7 years, he still does not meet your criterion.  L Why all the busy points for going to things in Europe -- what about your bo=D otcamp experience -- should be valued at at least 80 points????  :-)   I've scored about 40 points.   Regards, Paddy    G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged @ and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20D addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of=20C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise D the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=207 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   C If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 C immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 ? individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************     ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57BBD.A708F23F - Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">  <HTML> <HEAD>L <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> K <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7226.0"> 4 <TITLE>Re: European VMS Consultants required</TITLE> </HEAD>  <BODY>) <!-- Converted from text/plain format -->  <BR> <BR> <BR>  0 <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>L From: Didier MORANDI [<A HREF=3D"mailto:no@spam.com">mailto:no@spam.com</A>= ]<BR>  Sent: Tue 6/28/2005 3:42 PM<BR>  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com<BR> 2 Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required<BR> <BR> Dave Froble a =E9crit:<BR> <BR>L &gt;&gt; b) if you are not, you need more than 20 years of experience : 20 =
 points<BR> &gt;<BR> &gt;<BR>L &gt; 27 years.&nbsp; Shouldn't I get 7 more points for the extra 7 years?<B= R> <BR>9 Sorry, Dave, one line disappeared from the QUIZ form.<BR>  Should read<BR>  <BR>L b) if you are not, you need more than 20 years of experience : 20 points<BR>6 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; every extra year gives 5 points<BR> <BR> :-)<BR>  <BR> D.<BR> <BR> <BR>L So even with David's extra 7 years, he still does not meet your criterion.<= BR>  <BR>L Why all the busy points for going to things in Europe -- what about your bo=L otcamp experience -- should be valued at at least 80 points????&nbsp; :-)<B= R> <BR>  I've scored about 40 points.<BR> <BR> Regards, Paddy<BR> </FONT>  </P>   <FONT SIZE=3D3><BR>  <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  <BR>G "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged<BR> B and confidential information intended only for the use of the <BR>F addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of <BR>G this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise<BR> F the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, <BR>; distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.<BR>  <BR>E If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid <BR> E immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the <BR> A individual sender except where the sender expressly and with <BR> G authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses<BR> B virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses<BR>  contained in any attachment.<BR> <BR>@ Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now<BR>( firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"<BR> <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  </FONT>  </BODY>  </HTML> ) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57BBD.A708F23F--    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:53:10 +1000 6 From: "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au>. Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants requiredX Message-ID: <8BAD914A0B8CA84C9E94187103A1AB9E05BE53@EX-TG2-PR.corporate.transgrid.local>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57BBF.23EC2CC3 . Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   . Didier MORANDI" <no@spam.com> wrote in message! news:42C06CEC.8010206@spam.com...  > All, > J > It seems that one of my Customers in France may soon be happy to receiveG > big help from external VMS Old Timmers for a huge VAX and/or Alpha to  > i64 migration project. > = > My personal view on the prerequisites is the following one:   L Old Timmers sound like crunchy biscuits.  They have things called Tim-Tams = over here (in .au)   Regards, Paddy    G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged @ and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20D addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of=20C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise D the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=207 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   C If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 C immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 ? individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************     ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57BBF.23EC2CC3 - Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">  <HTML> <HEAD>L <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> K <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7226.0"> 4 <TITLE>Re: European VMS Consultants required</TITLE> </HEAD>  <BODY>) <!-- Converted from text/plain format -->   L <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Didier MORANDI&quot; &lt;no@spam.com&gt; wrote in message= <BR>L <A HREF=3D"news:42C06CEC.8010206@spam.com">news:42C06CEC.8010206@spam.com</=	 A>...<BR> 
 &gt; All,<BR>  &gt;<BR>L &gt; It seems that one of my Customers in France may soon be happy to recei= ve<BR>L &gt; big help from external VMS Old Timmers for a huge VAX and/or Alpha to<= BR>  &gt; i64 migration project.<BR>  &gt;<BR>D &gt; My personal view on the prerequisites is the following one:<BR> <BR>L Old Timmers sound like crunchy biscuits.&nbsp; They have things called Tim-= Tams over here (in .au)<BR>  <BR> Regards, Paddy<BR> </FONT>  </P>   <FONT SIZE=3D3><BR>  <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  <BR>G "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged<BR> B and confidential information intended only for the use of the <BR>F addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of <BR>G this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise<BR> F the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, <BR>; distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.<BR>  <BR>E If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid <BR> E immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the <BR> A individual sender except where the sender expressly and with <BR> G authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses<BR> B virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses<BR>  contained in any attachment.<BR> <BR>@ Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now<BR>( firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"<BR> <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  </FONT>  </BODY>  </HTML> ) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57BBF.23EC2CC3--    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:03:14 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> > Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required... for HPS EMEA0 Message-ID: <11c30i4ds774u89@corp.supernews.com>   Didier MORANDI wrote:  > This is OK for external. > I > I'm back from a meeting with Christophe Bedin from HP EMEA, Manager of  E > the VMS Migration Resources Center (or whatever name it has today)  M > within the European Competence Center managed by Marc Padovani in Valbonne.  > B > The Customer I was referring in my original post is HP Services. > I > One of "my" Customers because I handled a big project for HPS France a   > few years ago (Compaq era).  > % > The situation is the following one:  > I > o Current users of VMS have, as we already saw, a big problem with the  F > EOL of the VAX and the EOL to come in 2010 for the Alpha. So, it is H > natural that each of them go and see their Account Manager for advice  > and problem solving. > J > o HP France has less and less VMS resources (actually, two people only, D > since the departure of Marc Dufresne), doing mainly advisory. So, G > Customers go to HP EMEA for advices and find Christophe and his team.  > K > o Christophe does not provide services, only consulting and hardware for  2 > hands on and other i64 "Touch and Cry" sessions. > ! > o Services are provided by HPS.  > K > o Looks like HPS France has no more VMS resources either (what about HPS  
 > elsewhere?)  > A > o Independant VMS Consultants with real skills *are* available.  > I > o Customers will not hire Consultants from an ad in 01 Informatique to  J > migate their mission critical applications. So, Customers will probably % > ask HPS to "do something for them".  > I > o If HPS has no manpower, they may need to hire "VMS Cow-Boys". So, it  K > seems reasonable to federate these "local" resources to make an offer to  I > HPS France, but why not, also in all other EU Countries where the same   > problem applies. > @ > o It is also reasonable to think that HPS will need a kind of I > certification from those VMS Cow-Boys to sign with them. May I suggest  K > that VMS Consultants interested in this project get their certifications?  > I > I'll set up a few WEB pages to gather and post (public) information as  F > soon as it comes in. Stay tuned on www.VMSgateway.Net (in works, be  > patient).  > 
 > Regards, >  > D.  E With the availability of communications sufficient to outsource help  F desks and such to India, I'm thinking it can work in both directions. I To be sure, there are some things that need hands-on, like powering on a  G server, and such.  But there can also be things that can be outsourced  F to VMS capable people in the US who aren't interested in re-locating. G I'm thinking that occasional road trips could be required, and many of  D us are used to that.  (Did some work in Switzerland.)  But once the C required work is defined, many times it doesn't matter where it is  
 performed.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:49:43 +1000 # From: "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate> " Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic- Message-ID: <42c10f31@duster.adelaide.on.net>   H Thanks, I will try that - certainly the switch is FD - I will check the 	 Alpha....   3 "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote in message  L news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB650E91@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net...   > -----Original Message-----* > From: Gremlin [mailto:not-here@all.mate] > Sent: June 27, 2005 5:02 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ > Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic > 	 > Hi Guys  > ? > Thanks for all the suggestions, I will try PROBE as it sounds  > close to what  > I am looking for.  > < > The situation I am investigating is an Alpha using WASD is
 > receiving a 7 > moderate number of hits according to the WASD log and  > real-time stats.  WASD; > is happy, VMS is happy but external users are complaining  > that at peakF > times, the pages load very slowly or, sometimes, not at all.  I have6 > monitored the traffic on the router and the Alpha is > receiving about 60G > concurrent web connections (peaking at over 200), WASD is managing an ; > average of 200 requests/minute (peaking at about 550) and  > trying to push out8 > about 250kbytes/minute through an ADSL 1.5M/256k link. >   	 [snip...]     @ Apologies if this was already mentioned in this thread, but slowG application performance has been know to have been caused by a mismatch E between the network switch and the Ethernet adapter e.g.  One side is + half duplex while the other is full duplex.   B Other mismatch symptoms can be very bizarre. I once had a Cust sayB normal IP traffic was fine, but when they did large transfers likeF backups and/or ftp copies, overall performance would drag down to whatC amounted very slow performance. Fixing the mismatch instantly fixed H their problem (and likely improved the normal traffic which they thought was ok).   Anyway, its worth a check.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)   5 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:49:34 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> " Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic( Message-ID: <opss2y8w1mzgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:01:51 +1000, Gremlin <not-here@all.mate> wrote:  	 > Hi Guys  > J > Thanks for all the suggestions, I will try PROBE as it sounds close to   > what > I am looking for.  > H > The situation I am investigating is an Alpha using WASD is receiving aK > moderate number of hits according to the WASD log and real-time stats.     > WASDH > is happy, VMS is happy but external users are complaining that at peakF > times, the pages load very slowly or, sometimes, not at all.  I haveI > monitored the traffic on the router and the Alpha is receiving about 60 G > concurrent web connections (peaking at over 200), WASD is managing an L > average of 200 requests/minute (peaking at about 550) and trying to push   > out 8 > about 250kbytes/minute through an ADSL 1.5M/256k link.I Looks like the link is the problem.  Can't you get DSL?  T1's have gotten  a lot cheaper. > K > So, by using monitor/system and other VMS tools and WASD monitoring I can J > tell that VMS and WASD aren't stressed, but I am trying to calculate theK > peak outbound load to determine how much larger my outbound link needs to J > be.  The router/WASD logs aren't quite enough - I want to be sure that   > the & > IP stack is tuned correctly as well. >  > TIA  > 2 > "Joe Bloggs" <JBloggs@acme.com> wrote in message4 > news:um00c1pt5iv9vo2d5ijkqushrblfc7gaag@4ax.com...D >> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:23:18 +1000, "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate>	 >> wrote:  >>
 >>> Hi AllJ >>> System activity can be monitored in real time using monitor - is thereD >>> something similar for IP traffic using VMS7.3-1?  I would like  
 >>> something I >>> like monitor/system so that I could see traffic in/out, queue length, H >>> resource usage etc.  Can't find it in help monitor or tcpip help -   >>> perhaps  >>> I  >>> just missed it!  >>>  >>> Thanks.  >> >> you might have a look at 8 >> ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/probe.zip >>2 >> or perhaps the  V4 Freeware CD(s) for the same. >> >> >> >> PROBE, UTILITIES,A >> Alpha & VAX Ethernet monitor / statistics / capture / playback  >>@ >> Probe is a network monitoring tool which allows the real-time@ >> capture and/or graphical display of Ethernet traffic activityH >> and the tabular formatting of previously collected frame and/or data. >> >> The main features are:  >>F >> o  Extensive user-specified attributes allow fine-grained filteringA >> and enhanced presentation of raw or computed traffic data. Key ( >> attributesare dynamically modifiable. >>D >> o  Sampling can be performed unattended (in batch for example) byA >> setting a cycle of alternating collection and sleep intervals. + >> Statistics are produced for every cycle.  >>> >> o  Automatic and static symbolic representation of Ethernet
 >> addresses.  >>E >> o  Optional (complete or partial) frame data capture and playback.  >>3 >> o  Automatic line counters (collision) tracking.  >>= >> o  Runs on both VAX and Alpha/AXP. Heavily speed-optimized 5 >> high-priority multi-process MACRO32 user-mode code D >> (assembled on VAX, compiled on AXP) for capture/display. Playback >> program in VAXC.  >>E >> Please consult the files AAREADME.* and the help documentation for  >> details.  >>! >> Complete source code included.  >>A >> Provided executables linked on VAX/VMS 5.5-2 and Alpha/VMS 6.2  >>H >> This is release 2.3B. Check Internet sites FTP.WKU.EDU or FTP.SPC.EDUH >> (or other VMS archives) for eventual newer versions of this software. >>R >> =============================================================================== >>
 >> THE AUTHOR  >>G >> Comments, suggestions, questions and/or potential code-modifications 	 >> can be  >> directed to the author: >> >> Stephane Germain  >>1 >> via E-Mail at:  germain @ eisner . decus . org  >>> >> (Support and development on a "time-permitting" basis only) >>R >> =============================================================================== >> >> COPYRIGHT NOTICE  >>G >> This software is COPYRIGHT  1989-1997, Stephane Germain. ALL RIGHTS  >> RESERVED.H >> Permission is granted for not-for-profit redistribution, provided all	 >> source G >> and object code remain unchanged from the original distribution, and  >> that all # >> copyright notices remain intact.  >>
 >> DISCLAIMER  >>9 >> This software is provided "AS IS". The author makes no  >> representations or H >> warranties with respect to the software and specifically disclaim any
 >> impliedG >> warranties of merchantability or fitness for any particular purpose.  >>R >> =============================================================================== >  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:18:14 +0000 (UTC) . From: klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)" Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic. Message-ID: <d9s0om$hto$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  x "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate> writes in article <42c10f31@duster.adelaide.on.net> dated Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:49:43 +1000:I >Thanks, I will try that - certainly the switch is FD - I will check the  
 >Alpha....  J We have some switches that are capable of 100-full but default to 100-halfJ if they aren't "auto-negotiate"d with.  The best thing to do is to set the card to auto-neg in SRM.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:28:39 -0400 $ From: "PEN" <paul.nuneznosp@mhp.com>" Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic+ Message-ID: <d9p9fp$r7$1@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>    Hi,   / "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate> wrote in message  ' news:42bfa96d@duster.adelaide.on.net...  > Hi All > I > System activity can be monitored in real time using monitor - is there  K > something similar for IP traffic using VMS7.3-1?  I would like something  H > like monitor/system so that I could see traffic in/out, queue length, M > resource usage etc.  Can't find it in help monitor or tcpip help - perhaps   > I just missed it!  > 	 > Thanks.  >   L I think TCPMON is just what you're looking for (haven't yet tried it).   It I comes with TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS v5.4 (which runs on OpenVMS Alpha   v7.3-1):  :             $ set command tcpip$examples:tcpip$tcp_mon.cld?             $ help/libr=tcpip$examples:tcpip$tcp_mon.hlb tcpmon   J Apparently, it can be copied from any 5.4 system to other TCP/IP Services 2 for OpenVMS v5.x systems and will run there too...   HTH,   Paul     ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 10:22:43 -0700 From: jordan@ccs4vms.com" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby ProgramC Message-ID: <1119979363.227498.107240@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote: > Dear Newsgroup,  > H > Talk to me about the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.  I really can't explain; > why I am asking, you just have to trust me in a good way.  >  > .....  > 0 > Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable?  B Yes, very; I only have two licensed systems at home, neither underG support, so the hobby licenses allow me to run additional systems _and_ E legitimately use current OpenVMS versions that would otherwise be out F of license.  My home systems are noncommercial any more despite having 'real' licenses.   > ' > How do you use your Hobbyist license?   F Learning, webserver, test bed for playing with other technologies likeG PHP/Python/MySQL, though there's been very little time for that lately. ;  It allows me to somewhat keep up with new VMS features and D capabilities when work delays upgrading for other reasons, sometimes for a year or more.   2 The Personal Workstation is my primary desktop forC web/net/programming/mail/etc, the AS600 is a webserver with PHP and F related products, the AS200 is the test box for different versions and combinations of products.   6 The VAXstation, sadly, doesn't get run much anymore...   > F > Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that?   Montagar/hobbyist website    > Do you get the CD's?  C My work is a DSPP member for Alpha VMS, so we get the condists that E way.  The Alpha has ongoing VMS support with upgrades, so we also get G the Alpha VMS distributions that way.  I take them home and burn copies  to use for the hobby systems.   A No new VAX distributions in 4 years, but we did have V7.3 in hand F before dropping support on the work VAX, and not much new has happened outside of available ECOs.   > D > Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobbyH > costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to > put them.  >   D Although I don't need them (for now) since I have easy access to theF CDs, online access to the VMS and layered product distributions soundsF like the best addition, given how far behind the saleable distributionD gets, and its periodic unavailability.  I may someday lose access to? the distributions here too, and that would be a great resource.   G I know you asked for one item, but here's another; a better channel for F nonsupported hobbyist users to report problems, bugs, etc to HP, otherG than using this newsgroup.  Perhaps an HP supported/approved/authorized > webpage that allows the equivalent of an SPR submission to theE appropriate engineering or support group for the product in question, D formalizing the request even though the requestor would have to knowE that a specific response (as opposed to an automated acknowledgement) D was unlikely or flat not going to happen (though the receiving groupF certainly could contact the submitter if that would be helpful to them! and the submitter provided info).   " > What type of machine do you use?   PWS600au AS200 4/166 upgraded to 4/233  AS600 5/333  VAXstation 3100m76/SPX  D On the hunt for a cheap DS10 or XP1000 if Dave from Islandco doesn't buy them all first!    > I > The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity A > how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?  >   F Same as on Alpha and VAX, though not much till equipment gets excessed
 and cheap.   >  > Thanks for your time.  >  > Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:54:47 +0200 " From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>, Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV's' Message-ID: <42C0E627.4030808@spam.com>   $ susan_skonetski@hotmail.com a crit:, > John Smith's signature reads the following > H > OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV > base.  > I > As a point of clarifcation, we are regularly getting new ISV's and that H > number is growing not dwindling.  It is unfortunate that some partnersF > choose not to continue but the number is NOT dwindling.  We have hadG > nearly 50 new partners (not applications) in the last 2 months.  Each - > partner can have more than one application.  > F > I see little point in negative bad mouthing of VMS in a public forum) > and then saying you are a VMS advocate.   . I see big negative points in an anonymous sig.  H If John "Smith" is an HP employee, he may consider to leave the Company 1 and then be free to post under his real identity.   # If he is not, what is he afraid of?    D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:51:07 +0200 3 From: Michael Unger <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com> , Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV's+ Message-ID: <3ichfnFkdgq2U1@individual.net>   , On 2005-06-28 07:54, "Didier MORANDI" wrote:   > [...]  > % > If he is not, what is he afraid of?   % Maybe what's called "identity theft"?    Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. 5 My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:23:35 +1000 6 From: "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au>, Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV'sX Message-ID: <8BAD914A0B8CA84C9E94187103A1AB9E05BE54@EX-TG2-PR.corporate.transgrid.local>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57BC3.0F911AEC . Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable          -----Original Message-----) From: Didier MORANDI [mailto:no@spam.com]  Sent: Tue 6/28/2005 3:54 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com , Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV's =20 & susan_skonetski@hotmail.com a =E9crit:, > John Smith's signature reads the following >=20H > OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV > base.  >=20I > As a point of clarifcation, we are regularly getting new ISV's and that H > number is growing not dwindling.  It is unfortunate that some partnersF > choose not to continue but the number is NOT dwindling.  We have hadG > nearly 50 new partners (not applications) in the last 2 months.  Each - > partner can have more than one application.  >=20F > I see little point in negative bad mouthing of VMS in a public forum) > and then saying you are a VMS advocate.   . I see big negative points in an anonymous sig.  J If John "Smith" is an HP employee, he may consider to leave the Company=201 and then be free to post under his real identity.   # If he is not, what is he afraid of?    D.    L His reputation where he actually works, and his ability to deal with people=L  at HP.  He seems to be a genuine advocate of VMS (as most of us here are),=6  but filled with the frustration that many of us feel.  L Many others write anonymously with less blatant "anonymousness" -- the vari=> ous Doc names, just as a for instance.  And many, many others.  L Others just munge their addresses but leave their identity available -- spa=L m avoidance.  (I particularly like Philip Helbig's, Brad Hamilton's and bah)  L BTW, I agree with Susan's comment, but then Digital/Compaq/HP have never do=L ne anything to suggest that they are doing anything other than what "John S= mith" suggests.   L I am also pleased to hear Susan's figures, but my experience locally is som= ewhat (positively :-) negative.    Regards, Paddy      G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged @ and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20D addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of=20C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise D the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=207 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   C If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 C immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 ? individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************     ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57BC3.0F911AEC - Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">  <HTML> <HEAD>L <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> K <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7226.0"> 2 <TITLE>Re: Point of clarification on ISV's</TITLE> </HEAD>  <BODY>) <!-- Converted from text/plain format -->  <BR> <BR> <BR>  0 <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>L From: Didier MORANDI [<A HREF=3D"mailto:no@spam.com">mailto:no@spam.com</A>= ]<BR>  Sent: Tue 6/28/2005 3:54 PM<BR>  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com<BR> 0 Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV's<BR> <BR>* susan_skonetski@hotmail.com a =E9crit:<BR>3 &gt; John Smith's signature reads the following<BR>  &gt;<BR>L &gt; OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV= <BR> &gt; base.<BR> &gt;<BR>L &gt; As a point of clarifcation, we are regularly getting new ISV's and tha= t<BR> L &gt; number is growing not dwindling.&nbsp; It is unfortunate that some par=	 tners<BR> L &gt; choose not to continue but the number is NOT dwindling.&nbsp; We have = had<BR> L &gt; nearly 50 new partners (not applications) in the last 2 months.&nbsp; = Each<BR>4 &gt; partner can have more than one application.<BR> &gt;<BR>L &gt; I see little point in negative bad mouthing of VMS in a public forum<B= R>0 &gt; and then saying you are a VMS advocate.<BR> <BR>2 I see big negative points in an anonymous sig.<BR> <BR>L If John &quot;Smith&quot; is an HP employee, he may consider to leave the C=
 ompany<BR>5 and then be free to post under his real identity.<BR>  <BR>' If he is not, what is he afraid of?<BR>  <BR> D.<BR> <BR> <BR>L His reputation where he actually works, and his ability to deal with people=L  at HP.&nbsp; He seems to be a genuine advocate of VMS (as most of us here =? are), but filled with the frustration that many of us feel.<BR>  <BR>L Many others write anonymously with less blatant &quot;anonymousness&quot; -=L - the various Doc names, just as a for instance.&nbsp; And many, many other= s.<BR> <BR>L Others just munge their addresses but leave their identity available -- spa=L m avoidance.&nbsp; (I particularly like Philip Helbig's, Brad Hamilton's an=
 d bah)<BR> <BR>L BTW, I agree with Susan's comment, but then Digital/Compaq/HP have never do=L ne anything to suggest that they are doing anything other than what &quot;J= ohn Smith&quot; suggests.<BR>  <BR>L I am also pleased to hear Susan's figures, but my experience locally is som=# ewhat (positively :-) negative.<BR>  <BR> Regards, Paddy<BR> <BR> </FONT>  </P>   <FONT SIZE=3D3><BR>  <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  <BR>G "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged<BR> B and confidential information intended only for the use of the <BR>F addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of <BR>G this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise<BR> F the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, <BR>; distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.<BR>  <BR>E If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid <BR> E immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the <BR> A individual sender except where the sender expressly and with <BR> G authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses<BR> B virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses<BR>  contained in any attachment.<BR> <BR>@ Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now<BR>( firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"<BR> <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  </FONT>  </BODY>  </HTML> ) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C57BC3.0F911AEC--    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 05:23:15 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com , Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV'sB Message-ID: <1119961395.581580.28280@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  E I do not have an issue with the fact that John Smith does not use his F real name that is his choice and he probably has a good reason for it.    G My issue is that there are a select number of posters in this forum and F John is one of them that post a lot that are vocal which is wonderful.D Sort of like super heros.  But there are thousands of readers.  ThisG goes for everyone.  You can use your super hero powers for good or bad. G  You can build up VMS or you can bring it down.  Just like to you build E each other up or like chickens pick at each other until the person is 	 bleeding.   F This is a great tool for the VMS community, its where new people come.F There are all kinds of other places just like this where they can also7 go and more every day, its up to you what happens here.    off my soap box.   Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:32:14 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> , Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV's4 Message-ID: <42c15269$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:G > I do not have an issue with the fact that John Smith does not use his H > real name that is his choice and he probably has a good reason for it. >  > E > My issue is that there are a select number of posters in this forum A > and John is one of them that post a lot that are vocal which is B > wonderful. Sort of like super heros.  But there are thousands ofG > readers.  This goes for everyone.  You can use your super hero powers B >  for good or bad. You can build up VMS or you can bring it down.D > Just like to you build each other up or like chickens pick at each% > other until the person is bleeding.  > H > This is a great tool for the VMS community, its where new people come.H > There are all kinds of other places just like this where they can also9 > go and more every day, its up to you what happens here.  >  > off my soap box. >  > Sue      Sue,  K "The never advertised operating system" - when was the last time you saw an J ad that was VMS specific? Perhaps when Pfeiffer was CEO - just to jog yourH memory. That's getting close to a decade ago. If it was more recent thanL that, give me a year and I'll change my sig to read "OpenVMS - the operatingL system not advertised since (date here) and with a dwindling ISV base" - and, passing mention in Itanic ads doesn't count.  H As to the ISV numbers, let's contrast your recent numbers with those sayI every 2 years since 1990 - what does the overall trend tell you? In stock  market terms, it's a 'short'.   L No offense Sue but since I and many others who are VMS advocates, customers,J and users appear to have little/zero traction with the hands that hold theK advertising and marketing purse strings for VMS at HP perhaps it might be a I useful exercise for you or one of your HP colleages to pull the HP Board, ? Ann McQuaid or John Hurd, Marcello, Goham, Vasquez or that guy, J whatzisname...you know the ...oh yeah - the Chief Marketing Officer - MikeJ Winkler, aside and say "Why is this public perception of VMS out there andJ what can we as HP do to counter this? How about some concerted, sustained, visible VMS advertising?"   J I suspect that this would be a career-limiting move on your part or anyoneH else at HP, hence the continued need to point it out from the 'outside'.C When I see definitive positive-for-VMS changes, I'll change my sig.      --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 09:55:30 -0700 From: jordan@ccs4vms.com8 Subject: Re: Problem with spam filtering in Mozilla/CSWBC Message-ID: <1119977730.386509.249360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F I did not create an empty training.dat after deleting the original andF panacea.dat; worth a try this evening.  I still have the FDL I createdC from the original file so I'll try creating an empty with it if the  NLA0 copy doesn't work.   F If that still doesn't work I think I'll try logging the full blown setF watch again, and filter out all the accesses and attempted accesses to  see what else might be involved.  
 Thanks again!    Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?4 Message-ID: <42c1567f$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>   FredK wrote:0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message0 > news:42c078c2$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net... >> >>G >> So perhaps OVMS Engineering ought to publish a functional spec (open E >> source spec) of what VMS (at a higher level) wants to see once the E >> boot process hits a certain critical juncture and then let anybody < >> interested write the bootstrap for a particular processor5 >> architecture (Power, Sparc, Opteron, or whatever).  >>D >> That way VMS benefits from OVMS Engineering still retaining tightA >> control on the core operating system and interfaces, while the B >> actual 'port' at the boot level on different hardware is mostly >> out/open sourced. >> > 3 > Forgive him.  He knows naught of which he speaks.     B I know diddly about writing operating systems and bootstrapping onA hardware - it isn't my job. I know lots about writing specialized E applications that keep the 'Wall Street Casino" running,  your 401(k) I records accurate, your mutual funds in business, and the legal/regulatory & process surrounding all that and more.  H It just seemed to me, from the outside, that a great deal of effort wentG into the bootstrap portion of the Itanic port - not to minimize all the ' other compile/debug on the rest of VMS.   F I was just looking at it from the point of view of alternatives -  sayJ Cerner decided that Power/VMS was their future and they wanted to 'fund' aH bunch of university students to do the bootstrap of VMS on Power (almostG sounds like the vaunted .edu 'push' HP has going with the University of I Turin and nobody else it appears), HP might find the time to compile/link  VMS on top of their efforts.  K A relatively low cost/low risk effort for HP - if the bootstrap is the most L complicated portion of the port. Open source yet not open source at the same time.      --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:06:24 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?( Message-ID: <opss25kykpzgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0400, John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   > FredK wrote:1 >> "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message 1 >> news:42c078c2$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net...  >>>  >>> H >>> So perhaps OVMS Engineering ought to publish a functional spec (openF >>> source spec) of what VMS (at a higher level) wants to see once theF >>> boot process hits a certain critical juncture and then let anybody= >>> interested write the bootstrap for a particular processor 6 >>> architecture (Power, Sparc, Opteron, or whatever). >>> E >>> That way VMS benefits from OVMS Engineering still retaining tight B >>> control on the core operating system and interfaces, while theC >>> actual 'port' at the boot level on different hardware is mostly  >>> out/open sourced.  >>>  >>4 >> Forgive him.  He knows naught of which he speaks. >  > D > I know diddly about writing operating systems and bootstrapping onC > hardware - it isn't my job. I know lots about writing specialized G > applications that keep the 'Wall Street Casino" running,  your 401(k) K > records accurate, your mutual funds in business, and the legal/regulatory ( > process surrounding all that and more. > J > It just seemed to me, from the outside, that a great deal of effort wentI > into the bootstrap portion of the Itanic port - not to minimize all the ) > other compile/debug on the rest of VMS.  > H > I was just looking at it from the point of view of alternatives -  sayL > Cerner decided that Power/VMS was their future and they wanted to 'fund'   > a J > bunch of university students to do the bootstrap of VMS on Power (almostI > sounds like the vaunted .edu 'push' HP has going with the University of K > Turin and nobody else it appears), HP might find the time to compile/link  > VMS on top of their efforts. > J > A relatively low cost/low risk effort for HP - if the bootstrap is the   > mostK > complicated portion of the port. Open source yet not open source at the    > same > time.   J Well, it may not be too far-fetched, Fred.  Linux was booted onto ARC-onlyI platforms using MILO, MIni LOader,  from a FAT partition and then linload    >  >  > --H > OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV > base.  >  >  > H > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet   > News==----C > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!    > 120,000+ Newsgroups I > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption    > =----    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:15:19 -0400 + From: Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?A Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506280805300.14254@frank.harvard.edu>   0 On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 prep@prep.synonet.com wrote:  / > Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam> writes:  > B >> No.  Xeons supporting EMT64 (x86-64), being an extension of x86@ >> Xeons, have the same privilege levels.  Intel didn't drop any@ >> privilege levels when they added the 64-bit extensions to the >> instruction set.  > I > Are you SURE of this? It is not what I have read, though my reading was  > about AMD64s.    Absolutely.  See  @ http://developer.intel.com/design/pentium4/manuals/index_new.htm  B for the IA-32 instruction set that defines four privilege levels, F especially volume 3 "System Programming Guide" section 4.5 "Privilege  Levels" which reads:  F     The processor's segment-protection mechanism recoginzes 4 privlegeI     levels, numbered 0 to 3.  The greater numbers mean lesser privileges.   A Now, that specifies how 32-bit Intel processors work.  The EM64T  ( extensions are defined by this document:  B http://developer.intel.com/technology/64bitextensions/30083402.pdf  J which makes no mention of a change to the number of privilege levels, and 0 contains explicit references to CPLs of 0 and 3.   Chip   --   Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell Turn on, log in, tune out    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:28:47 -0400 + From: Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?A Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506280818150.14254@frank.harvard.edu>   ' On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, John Reagan wrote:    > prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: >  >>   >>  I >> The Alpha IS a 4 level CPU. Well, 5 if you allow PALcode to be counted ; >> on its own. Look at the PSW and the TLB protection bits.  >>   >>   > % > Which PSW?  Depends on the PALcode.   G John is right here.  The PSW isn't a hardware register on Alpha.  It's  J implemented in PALcode.  The ARM describes the OpenVMS internal processor H registers in the section on OpenVMS PALcode (Part II-A chapter 5).  The 7 MFPR and MTPR instructions are PALcode, too, of course.   & Here's the quote from page (II-A) 5-1:  F "Internal Processor Registers may or may not be implemented as actual E hardware registers.  An implementation may choose any combination of  H PALcode and hardware to produce the architecturally spedified function."  B In practice, I don't think they ever were implemented as hardware F registers, but you would have to consult the reference manual for the  specific part to be sure:   Q http://ftp.digital.com/pub/Digital/info/semiconductor/literature/dsc-library.html    Chip   --   Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell Turn on, log in, tune out    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:18:18 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <11c31e9t1hiff7b@corp.supernews.com>   Tom Linden wrote: H > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:49:37 -0400, John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote: >  >> FredK wrote:  >>2 >>> "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message2 >>> news:42c078c2$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net... >>>  >>>> >>>>I >>>> So perhaps OVMS Engineering ought to publish a functional spec (open G >>>> source spec) of what VMS (at a higher level) wants to see once the G >>>> boot process hits a certain critical juncture and then let anybody > >>>> interested write the bootstrap for a particular processor7 >>>> architecture (Power, Sparc, Opteron, or whatever).  >>>>F >>>> That way VMS benefits from OVMS Engineering still retaining tightC >>>> control on the core operating system and interfaces, while the D >>>> actual 'port' at the boot level on different hardware is mostly >>>> out/open sourced. >>>> >>> 5 >>> Forgive him.  He knows naught of which he speaks.  >> >> >>E >> I know diddly about writing operating systems and bootstrapping on D >> hardware - it isn't my job. I know lots about writing specializedH >> applications that keep the 'Wall Street Casino" running,  your 401(k)L >> records accurate, your mutual funds in business, and the legal/regulatory) >> process surrounding all that and more.  >>K >> It just seemed to me, from the outside, that a great deal of effort went J >> into the bootstrap portion of the Itanic port - not to minimize all the* >> other compile/debug on the rest of VMS. >>I >> I was just looking at it from the point of view of alternatives -  say E >> Cerner decided that Power/VMS was their future and they wanted to   >> 'fund'  aK >> bunch of university students to do the bootstrap of VMS on Power (almost J >> sounds like the vaunted .edu 'push' HP has going with the University ofL >> Turin and nobody else it appears), HP might find the time to compile/link >> VMS on top of their efforts.  >>F >> A relatively low cost/low risk effort for HP - if the bootstrap is  >> the  mostG >> complicated portion of the port. Open source yet not open source at   >> the  same >> time. >  > L > Well, it may not be too far-fetched, Fred.  Linux was booted onto ARC-onlyK > platforms using MILO, MIni LOader,  from a FAT partition and then linload  >  >> >> >> -- I >> OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV  >> base. >> >> >>I >> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet   
 >> News==---- D >> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!   >> 120,000+ NewsgroupsJ >> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption   >> =---- >  >   F Excuse me.  I must have missed the announcement of Macro-32 and BLISS C compilers for Power (And anything else 'John' wants to run VMS on).   K Could someone take pity on this old dummy and inform him of what he missed?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:14:41 -0400 - From: "NewsReader" <martyoconnor@hotmail.com>  Subject: Re: SAN & DFU+ Message-ID: <3ict61FkurplU1@individual.net>   @ "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message % news:42C09C32.C1DC8966@comcast.net... 
 > alex wrote:  >> >> Ken,  >> >> Thanks for your reply. I >> You are quite right, our intensions are to use DEFRAG in a VMS-cluster D >> environment and we are asking if its working in such environment. > B > I should think it would, but I'd question DFG's value in the SANE > environment. Unless the disk clusters are the same size as the RAID H > "chunks", seems to me that there'd be some substantial conflict tryingC > to shuffle extents around if the extents are less than a "chunk".  >  > --    J We us DFG on the EVA5000 SAN. My rational is that it doesn't matter about M the physical lay out because the SAN is going to manage that but if the disk  J is defrag'd from the VMS perspective then VMS will do less work to do the  I/Os.    Marty    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:30:16 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> @ Subject: Sun does it again - moblie & low-cost unix workstations4 Message-ID: <42c16004$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>  L http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20050628/tc_cmp/164902857/nc:1208;_ylt=AvVaxraD29 zDGGOEVUQvcYNHu7rEF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl   ? Sun Adds A Low-End Opteron Workstation And A Mobile Workstation    Darrell Dunn Mon Jun 27, 9:00 AM ET    K Looking to build on its traditional strength in the workstation market, Sun H Microsystems on Monday introduces an entry-level workstation based on anL Opteron processor and its first portable workstation, which utilizes a Sparc
 processor.  J The Ultra 20 workstation using a single-core Opteron processor and, with aI price starting at $895, is aimed at the fast-growing market for x86-based L workstations, says John Fowler, executive VP for network systems at Sun. TheK company will add dual-core Opteron-based workstations "relatively soon," he  says.   H "The classic Unix/RISC workstation market has been declining in volume,"I Fowler says. "But we have an opportunity to grow using our technology and A products in the x86 workstation space, which is growing rapidly."   B With its workstation products, Sun is targeting primarily softwareI developers and the mechanical computer-aided-design and electronic-design J automation markets, he says. The Ultra 20 comes preloaded with the Solaris/ 10 operating system and Java development tools.   L "This is not a general business desktop play," Fowler says. "These are aimedL at professionals with technically complex tasks, which is one of the reasonsL we're bundling so many tools with this platform. People don't talk about theL workstation market much anymore, but designing jets, or cars, or circuits isJ a big activity, and the market when combining x86 and RISC is still in the billions of dollars."   < The Ultra 20 supports a variety of Nvidia Quadro PCI-ExpressE workstation-class graphics boards as well as media and communications E processors. The system also has a half-terabyte of redundant array of J independent disks, or RAID, storage to safeguard data for mission-critical
 applications.   L The Ultra 3 mobile workstation is Sun's first mobile workstation product andF is aimed at users wanting to keep compatibility with other Sparc-basedG systems, Fowler says. Anticipated users include systems administrators, - software developers, and government agencies.   F "It's really intended for the traditional Sparc customer that wants to1 extend into the mobile environment," Fowler says.   H Entry-level pricing for the Ultra 3 mobile workstation is $3,400. FowlerK says Sun will evaluate the demand for the mobile workstation and may expand ( the segment with other mobile offerings.  	 ---------   K Guess we still have to continue to purchase used Alphas if we want low-cost < options and Charon if we want to have a laptop VMS solution.     --L OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.      O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:04:14 +0200 " From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>( Subject: US military and confidentiality' Message-ID: <42C0E85E.4010703@spam.com>   B One can read in the last Salem Automation newsletter on Charon-VAXJ http://www.charonvax.com/images/CHARON%20VAX%20Newsletter%20Oct%202004.pdf the following information:  > "Every branch of the US military and all the major US defense = contractors are using CHARON VAX some at many of their sites"   ) Shouldn't this information be classified?   I In France, there would be no way for anyone outside an Administration to  ) post any data on the equipments they use.    D. --  4   Didier MORANDI - VMS Expert and SAP CRM Consultant4 13 chemin du Gu - 1213 Petit-Lancy (GE) Switzerland2      Phone: +336 7983 6418 - www.didiermorandi.com   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 00:16:36 -0700' From: "toby" <toby@telegraphics.com.au> , Subject: Re: US military and confidentialityC Message-ID: <1119942996.509869.202730@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Didier MORANDI wrote: D > One can read in the last Salem Automation newsletter on Charon-VAXL > http://www.charonvax.com/images/CHARON%20VAX%20Newsletter%20Oct%202004.pdf > the following information: > ? > "Every branch of the US military and all the major US defense ? > contractors are using CHARON VAX some at many of their sites"  > + > Shouldn't this information be classified?   > Who cares? Here's another little secret. They run Windoze too.
 Bwahahaha.   > J > In France, there would be no way for anyone outside an Administration to+ > post any data on the equipments they use.  >  > D. > --6 >   Didier MORANDI - VMS Expert and SAP CRM Consultant8 > 13 chemin du Gu=E9 - 1213 Petit-Lancy (GE) Switzerland4 >      Phone: +336 7983 6418 - www.didiermorandi.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:27:09 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG, Subject: Re: US military and confidentiality0 Message-ID: <00A45F32.E07CE745@SendSpamHere.ORG>  m In article <1119942996.509869.202730@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "toby" <toby@telegraphics.com.au> writes:  >  >  >Didier MORANDI wrote:E >> One can read in the last Salem Automation newsletter on Charon-VAX M >> http://www.charonvax.com/images/CHARON%20VAX%20Newsletter%20Oct%202004.pdf  >> the following information:  >>@ >> "Every branch of the US military and all the major US defense@ >> contractors are using CHARON VAX some at many of their sites" >>, >> Shouldn't this information be classified? > ? >Who cares? Here's another little secret. They run Windoze too.   I That's not a secret, it's a shame.  It's also a surprise.  Weendoze runs?    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 13:26:43 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), Subject: Re: US military and confidentiality+ Message-ID: <3id1gjFkre59U4@individual.net>   ' In article <42C0E85E.4010703@spam.com>, % 	Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com> writes: D > One can read in the last Salem Automation newsletter on Charon-VAXL > http://www.charonvax.com/images/CHARON%20VAX%20Newsletter%20Oct%202004.pdf > the following information: > @ > "Every branch of the US military and all the major US defense ? > contractors are using CHARON VAX some at many of their sites"  > + > Shouldn't this information be classified?   ! Not if it's dis-information.  :-)  > K > In France, there would be no way for anyone outside an Administration to  + > post any data on the equipments they use.  >   H Contracts for most of this stuff are public information (how else do you) think the bidders find out about them?)     @ But, as I said in another post recently I would love to see someE confirmation of this.  As we all know, VMS takes a level of knowledge B somewhat beyond Windows/Linux.  The military does not teach it nor@ openly solicit people with VMS skills.  That being the case, how@ widespread can it really be beyond a few legacy applications?  IB have just recently attended the most advanced computing school theE Army has to offer.  Everyone here probably remembers the only mention  VMS got there.  E Don't get me wrong, if its true, I have a vested interest in learning  it.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 08:01:38 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <mpGdnfz-3fNdv1zfRVn-sg@rcn.net>  + In article <3iahqoFkj28jU1@individual.net>, ,    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:- >In article <W-CdnUCahLNZViLfRVn-jA@rcn.net>,  >	jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:  >>  D >> It looks like there is a bug.  The dotcom generation has not beenB >> trained in the consequences of stealing.  Read some of the long@ >> discussions on game newsgroups about this subject.  There are= >> a growing number of people who have absolutely no idea how # >> hard/software products are made.  > > >You can lay a major part of the blame for this at the feet of< >one of todays computer subculture heroes, Richard Stallman.  < I didn't think he had started the attitude.  I agree he's a  virus carrier w.r.t. thinking.  ? >    "I consider that the golden rule requires that if I like a < >     program I must share it with other people who like it.A >     Software sellers want to divide the users and conquer them, ? >     making each user agree not to share with others. I refuse @ >     to break solidarity with other users in this way. I cannot< >     in good conscience sign a nondisclosure agreement or a# >     software license agreement."   > A >From this we got the Gnu Public Virus and the idea that there is ? >no inherent value in programs and so they can be given away at @ >will.  All this because he was too stupid to know what the termD >"Public Domain" meant when he first gave away the code to his early >version of EMACS.  ? If you notice, he's not given away a damned thing but tied bits  up in spaghetti ownerships.  > E >If you draw the conclusion fromt he above that I don't think much of E >Stallman, you would be right.  I feel he has done more to damage the E >software world than anyone else.  (Oh yeah, and he didn't invent the D >idea of "software sharing" mod.sources was created in 1983 and that7 >was just to formalize what had already been going on.)   A DECUS was software sharing long before Stallman put his prints on  things.    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 08:06:22 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <mpGdnf_-3fNGvlzfRVn-sg@rcn.net>  9 In article <20050627170237.1437c66c.m_roguski@yahoo.com>, 6    Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski <m_roguski@yahoo.com> wrote: >[...]C >> From this we got the Gnu Public Virus and the idea that there is A >> no inherent value in programs and so they can be given away at  >> will. >[...] > B >Allow me to put my two cents here. I disagree, I neither tolerateC >software piracy (hay, I don't even have Windows, Office, Photoshop = >etc...) on my PC computers. But GNU GPL did actually made a  I >difference, and software piracy existed long before Stallman, Torvalds,  G >Cox or <insert your favourite target here>. And the idea of GPL is not G >that software can be "given away at will", but that anyone can develop J >software based on your ideas (providing that he will give you credit and : >grant rights for others to do the same with his ideas)...  8 A real bit god doesn't expect credit for everything s/he4 does.  It is a sign of a very small mind who insists4 that credit comes before use.  Stallman's version of5 credits defeats the time-honored method of mentorship 0 and teaching the next generation your knowledge.  ; If you use the law to ensure that you always get credit for 8 a momentary idea, you will stiffle any expansion of that7 idea.  Nobody in their right mind would use his code in 8 case he decides to collect later.  Marry the thinking of; a Stallman with the thinking of a Gates and you have a very 
 nasty biz.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 08:24:41 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <5OudnYYUraC6tVzfRVn-1A@rcn.net>  4 In article <O08we.10918$U4.1403671@news.xtra.co.nz>,(    "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com> wrote:0 >"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message= >news:1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  > H >> Yes, ownership means a lot. I'm just trying to say that it is not theJ >> be all and end all that you appear to be saying. If I misunderstood youH >> about this, I apologize. In this particular case it there may well beG >> no law to prevent HP from dropping VMS. But maybe there *should* be.  > E >A law to prevent a company from dropping a product? Did I undrestand  >you right?   = Yes, you did.  If you think a little bit more, it gets worse. A One of the reasons, VMS and other working OSes exist is precisely @ because somebody was willing to give the bit gods money (so they= could eat, sleep, and have a family) in return for the fruits > of their remarkable labors.  Take that monetary incentive away. and we will not have anything that works well.    B > .. Let's suppose you are a shareholder in the said company. WillD >you take kindly to a goverment which imposes a law which forces theD >company (against it's own decisions) to keep up a product at a lossD >and take, say, 5% off your dividends. How long would you personally- >tolerate that law or stay with that company?    It's called communism.   > I >> My primary point is that ownership does not automatically mean you can # >> do what you want no matter what.  > ? >Well, of course. A good example would be that if you own a gun K >(quite legally) you are still not allowed to shoot people with it whenever H >you feel like it. You are also (probably, I'm getting on a shaky ground >here)I >not allowed to sell it to a person with a criminal record or such. But I  >have H >yet to see a law which forbids you to NOT sell it if you don't want to.F >Or require you to give it away for free (which brings us back to the  subject  >line more or less). > J >> Some restrictions are for the public good: patents, copyrights, zoning, > F >Good, now we agree that piracy (including software piracy) is bad for* >the public good and should be taken down.  9 <GRIN>  Nice try.  I'll bet one your dimes it won't work.    /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 08:32:40 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <5OudnYEUraCbt1zfRVn-1A@rcn.net>  + In article <3iass0FklopdU1@individual.net>, ,    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:6 >In article <d9pd4s$in7$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,, >	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:F >> In article <3iak0qFkk3cfU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill  Gunshannon) writes: 9 >>> In article <d9p5dm$fvn$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, 7 >>> 	m.kraemer@biors6a.gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:  >>> > C >>> > And all this is exactly what only IP lawyers and brainwashed   politicians F >>> > find "legal" or "natural". If I buy a product, e.g. a car, it isL >>> > mine and I can do withit whatever I like (except pirating of course). D >>> > Volkswagen or GM or BMW has no say anymore, and rightfully so.< >>> > Why should a software product be treated differently ? >>> K >>> Because you didn't "buy" the software, you licensed it.  And as for the I >>> car industry, they, too, have latched onto this model.  It's called a  >>> lease.   >>  ? >> OK, but as a car customer I have the choice to lease or buy.  > A >Not in most cases.  You have to accept whatever they offer or go A >elsewhere.  They have no requirement to accomodate your desires.   A Bill, he doesn't know what software is.  He thinks it's an object A you can hold in your hand.  You missed this and it's an extremely # important aspect to the discussion.  <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 08:39:46 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <5OudnYAUraAytlzfRVn-1A@rcn.net>  0 In article <11c1cf45sucnfea@corp.supernews.com>,+    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  >Larry Kilgallen wrote:  > G >> The crucial phrase is "if applied to cars".  Nobody is attempting to G >> apply software licensing rules to car purchases.  Cars are hardware.  > ) >What about the software in the car?  :-)  > ; >Probably all cars with electronic ignitions have software.  > H >I never was happy about licenses, once purchased, not staying with the H >hardware when it changes hands.  It has been paid for.  I've read that 6 >if challenged today, such might not hold up in court. > J >Regardless, I do recognize how the licenses were issued, the conditions, ? >and the right of the owner to enforce the contract conditions.  > 9 One of the reasons for licensing is keeping track of your 8 customers and preventing you from spending tons of money8 on problems that won't guarantee a return of investment.9 (At least, that's how I looked at it from the development 6 and maintenance point of view and this might be unique5 to the way our product did its business.)  These days 8 when there are millions of computer sites, this tracking method won't work.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 12:09:20 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3icsvgFkudcjU1@individual.net>   , In article <mpGdnfz-3fNdv1zfRVn-sg@rcn.net>, 	jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:- > In article <3iahqoFkj28jU1@individual.net>, . >    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:. >>In article <W-CdnUCahLNZViLfRVn-jA@rcn.net>, >>	jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>> E >>> It looks like there is a bug.  The dotcom generation has not been C >>> trained in the consequences of stealing.  Read some of the long A >>> discussions on game newsgroups about this subject.  There are > >>> a growing number of people who have absolutely no idea how$ >>> hard/software products are made. >>? >>You can lay a major part of the blame for this at the feet of = >>one of todays computer subculture heroes, Richard Stallman.  > > > I didn't think he had started the attitude.  I agree he's a   > virus carrier w.r.t. thinking.  B He may not have originated the idea but he was one of the first toB publicly vocalize it and in such a manner that he rapidly acquired* a herd of sheep to listen to his rantings.   > @ >>    "I consider that the golden rule requires that if I like a= >>     program I must share it with other people who like it. B >>     Software sellers want to divide the users and conquer them,@ >>     making each user agree not to share with others. I refuseA >>     to break solidarity with other users in this way. I cannot = >>     in good conscience sign a nondisclosure agreement or a $ >>     software license agreement."  >>B >>From this we got the Gnu Public Virus and the idea that there is@ >>no inherent value in programs and so they can be given away atA >>will.  All this because he was too stupid to know what the term E >>"Public Domain" meant when he first gave away the code to his early  >>version of EMACS.  > A > If you notice, he's not given away a damned thing but tied bits  > up in spaghetti ownerships.   B I never said he wasn't a hypocrite.  I have always wondered at theC motives of someone who claims there should be no software ownership E but asks developers to sign over their ownership to his organization.      >>F >>If you draw the conclusion fromt he above that I don't think much ofF >>Stallman, you would be right.  I feel he has done more to damage theF >>software world than anyone else.  (Oh yeah, and he didn't invent theE >>idea of "software sharing" mod.sources was created in 1983 and that 8 >>was just to formalize what had already been going on.) > C > DECUS was software sharing long before Stallman put his prints on 	 > things.   A DECUS, USENET, and pretty much any other group of developers from @ the early days.  Kind of reminds of the Ada people claiming they  invented "software re-use".  :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 12:43:50 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3icv06Fl57vgU1@individual.net>   C In article <1119911179.790552.101040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, ' 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  >  >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:E >> In article <1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, * >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >> > >> > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: I >> >> In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, - >> >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  >> >> > K >> >> > Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down?  >> >> , >> >> Because we have a warped court system. >> >E >> > I beg to differ in this case! GCT is a magnificent building that J >> > deserves to be protected. Not as good as Penn Station was, but still, >> > pretty good.  >>I >> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I have no artistic sense at all G >> and see most things that others consider "great art" as just so much G >> junk. (Like the recent fiasco in Central Park)  That being the case, F >> I see no reason to limit ownership rights because of someone else'sI >> artistic sense.  If you think it should be preserved, buy it yourself. K >> At what ever price the owner asks.  If you think it is worth it you will J >> raise the money but if not, what right do you have to tell me I have toC >> incur the monetary loss in order to please your aesthetic sense?  > B > Well, I don't know the details of the GCT. Maybe the owners wereF > compensated. I don't know. But I'm glad it's still there. We're justB > going to differ on this one. Also, the train station has a greatI > economic value for getting commuters to and from NYC. So, it's not just I > artisitic in value. Also, many, many advertisements contain pictures or B > footage using GCT as a backdrop, giving more benefits. It's alsoG > valuable as a tourist atraction, bringing yet more money to the city.  > It's more than just "art".  C None of which is relevant to the owner.  If someone wants it put to G a diferent purpose than the owner then they should buy it at the owners G asking price (or whatever price the two parties can negotiate) and then H whne they own it, do what they want with it.  Recent history (especiallyH as covered by a number of recent news programs) would seem to imply thatE he was not likely to be compensated.  Governments are running rampant , with the "right of emminent domain" of late.   > I > In one sense it's just a zoning decision, but admittedly a very focused  > one.  F And one that takes from one person for the gain of another.  PunishingD one man for his accomplishments while rewarding another for nothing.   >  >  >> >> >; >> >> > Then why are companies sued for defective products?  >> >> M >> >> For the same reason they are sued when some idiot does something really K >> >> stupid with their product that it was not designed for and gets hurt. N >> >> (Remember, we have the court system that awarded several million dollars5 >> >> for loss of psychic ability after  a CAT-scan.)  >> > >> >L >> > Well, there's a down side to everything. And that's either the fault of6 >> > the court system and/or some particular bad laws. >> > >> >N >> >> >                                                    Why does Exxon have2 >> >> > to "use" its Esso trademark to protect it? >> >> G >> >> Because trademarks are a totally different concept with different K >> >> rules entirely.  A more important question would have been what right H >> >> did the government have to tell them they had to change their name@ >> >> in the US?  But that isn't generic to the discussion.  :-) >> > >> >J >> > Depends what you mean by "right". Rights are decided by people. SinceK >> > people will in general differ on what's right, we have government. Not K >> > perfect by a long shot, but certainly better than anarchy. And even if L >> > there is some ultimate set of "God-given rights", people have no way toL >> > know exactly what these are and will differ on what they are anyway. SoK >> > ultimately they are decided by people and are subject to discussion as  >> > to how things "should be".  >> >B >> > People who succeed in the US do so, in part, because the U.S.H >> > Government, as imperfect as it is, has established and maintains anJ >> > environment in which businesses and individuals can succeed. For thisK >> > reason I find it not unreasonable that *something* is owed to the govt K >> > for this. What exactly that should be I'm not here to say. But I don't I >> > believe the "I did it all on my own so I can do what I want with it" F >> > story. And in a similar, but slightly different vein, some sportsL >> > person once observed, "Some people are born on third base and act as if >> > they had hit a triple." >> >J >> > Yes, ownership means a lot. I'm just trying to say that it is not theL >> > be all and end all that you appear to be saying. If I misunderstood youJ >> > about this, I apologize. In this particular case it there may well beI >> > no law to prevent HP from dropping VMS. But maybe there *should* be.  >>K >> Again, I ask why?  If Steven King wanted to take the original manuscript G >> for "It" or "Carrie" or any other of his many successes (mind you, I I >> only ever liked one of his stories and tend not to bother reading most J >> of what he writes) and burn it in his fireplace so that no one ever sawI >> it, is that not his right?  What will become of VMS at the end of it's  >  > F > I have no problem with that. No essential information is lost. But ID > don't think he should be allowed to burn all copies of his books.   F Why?  It's his book.  No one has any rights to his IP unless he grants them.   H >                                                                   ThenI > all the information would be lost. Sources and images are not the same, 7 > however. I suppose you could reverse engineer though.   G In most cases, not legally,  But then, that's the crux of the argument. G The many people who believe, for some strange reason, that their wishes & and desires out-weigh everyone else's.   >  > H >> days is stuill unknown.  Like others, I would like to think that whenG >> the owner at that point (and we also have no way of knowing who that G >> may be) will just release it all to the public trust.  But they have K >> no real obligation to do so.  And, this whole discussion may be academic H >> as, if most of us have our way, VMS will last for a long time to comeE >> and will only die when it is no longer needed or wanted by anyone.  >  >  >> >> >A >> > And even in the computer biz, there are restrictions. Export ( >> > restrictions for national security, >>F >> Another good reason not to let the government get involved any moreG >> than they already are.  Do you know how many VAXen running Unix were A >> found behind the Iron Curtain when it finally fell? (Both were  >> restricted export items!) >  > A > Well, someone, maybe it wasn't you, mentioned that there are no . > ownership restrictions in the computer biz.   C Not I.  There are lot's of restrictions, most imposed by the owners G and therefore proper.  I only object to the government getting involved H especially when their actions hurt the innocent while letting the guilty do as they please.  I >                                             I was just countering that. H > I am not, in general, a fan of restrictions on trade unless there is aF > very good reason. National security certainly ranks high for me. AndF > some VAX systems were running there. So? No restriction is perfect.   D Perfect?  That's a hoot.  Basicly, the restriction limited access toG some of the parts of Unix by all of our allies (England, Germany, etc.) E while basicly being totally ineffective as regards the acquisition of D the technology by the Communists.  We won't even go into things likeD the badly flawed export law on 3D milling machines or companies thatH openly shipped technology to Russia and even bragged about it on USENET.  I >                                                                     The F > Space Shuttle blew up, twice (okay, broke up the second time)! There > still going to send up more.  E Yeah, well some of us think the shuttle is a bad idea wether it works G or not.  Some of us think if the government were out of the picture the C private comapnies who have held licenses for space craft operations C would have been doing it for decades and the competition would have 6 resulted in more efficient and less expensive methods.   >  >>I >> >                                     for one. Anti-trust restrictions  >> > (ask BG!) for two.  >>D >> I don't necessarily agree with most anti-trust legislation.  MostA >> monopolistic practices involve breaking enough other laws that D >> special ones (especially ones without teeth) are never necessary. >  > G > I see this as government at least trying or pretending to act for the F > public good. Yes, govt does a lot of stupid and bad things. Like theH > odd/even licesne plate scheme during the gas-line days (1973, 1979) toH > name a minor grievance of mine. But people succeed in the U.S. in partB > because govt. has done many things right. Who's going to protectE > ownership? The govt.! If someone starts cranking out free copies of E > software, who's going to stop it? You have to give govt. credit for % > that. They do do some things right!   0 Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while.   >  >> >> >O >> >> >                                             Why can't GM make sell cars + >> >> > that don't have pollution controls?  >> >> K >> >> For the same reason I can't drive on the I81 at 150 mph.  Our elected J >> >> government decided that it was in the public good to limit pollutionK >> >> and it isn't worth the cost of making two differnt models in order to I >> >> service those places that have less strict requirements. (it should J >> >> be noted that even after both the US and Europe had strict pollutionI >> >> requirements VW still manufactured the old Beetle without emissions J >> >> control in Mexico for sale in those places that still allowed them.) >> >A >> > I was just making a point with this one, as with the others.  >>J >> Actually, GM does "make" and sell cars without pollution controls as doJ >> most of the other car manufacturers worldwide.  You can't drive them onH >> the street, but they are free to make and sell them.  I have piles ofF >> catalogs for parts for my cars that specifically say if I put theseG >> parts on my car it will no longer be legal on the street.  They have % >> no problem making or selling them.  >  > OK.  >  >> >> > >> >> J >> >> >                                     Why can't a developer build anO >> >> > office building ON HIS OWN LAND when it is zoned as a residential area?  >> >> M >> >> Because it affects others than himself.  And the one legitimate purpose O >> >> of government is to protect it's citizenry.  He is free to convince those M >> >> he would affect that his plan is good for them and the zoning should be  >> >> changed. >> >2 >> > And eliminating VMS would also affect others. >>J >> Matter of opinion.  It is doubtful that more than .002055% of americans6 >> would even notice it if it went away tomorrow.  :-) >   ? Gee, I thought someone would ask where I got a number with that  precision.    :-)    > I > But without VMS our military will have a harder time protecting us! :-)   4 I'll comment on this the next time it comes up.  :-)   >  > ; >> >> > Copyright laws are another example. Patents expire.  >> >>  >> >> Copyrights also expire.  >> >>  >> >> > N >> >> > There are tons of laws about restrictions on ownership. There are even6 >> >> > some things you are not allowed to own at all! >> >> K >> >> Most restrictions are about protecting others from the stupid acts of D >> >> the few.  Exactly how does this apply to the licensing of VMS? >> > >> >K >> > My primary point is that ownership does not automatically mean you can % >> > do what you want no matter what.  >>C >> True, up to a point.  SO it looks like you need to find a way to A >> convince the Congress that saving VMS is somehow int he public D >> interest.  Considering that they don't even condsider it valuableC >> enough to use themselves, I don't hink you'll have much success.  >  > H > OK. But the gov't's military depends on VMS! So they have an interest.  F OK,  You've said this twice now.  What evidence do you have to supportF it?  I am rather deeply involved in computing within the Army (as willG become apparent to many people here in the not to distant future) and I F can assure you that VMS has never come up.  There may have been a timeD once when VMS was important to DOD, but I fear that time has passed.E VMS is no more important to DOD than to any other business. There are E bound to be legacy applications that still run on VMS but there isnot E likely to be any future development being done there now.  The people F who work in the trenches are not even told of the existence of VMS andG it is doubtful the people who teach them know anything about it either. 7 (Didn't we visit this subject just a little while ago?)    >  > J >> >                                  I, for one, am very glad GCT was notL >> > torn down. It's too bad they couldn't save Penn Station, but I digress. >>H >> And as I said above, I don't agree.  But in any case, I don't see whyJ >> someone else should bear the cost of pleasing your aesthetics.  That is >> a flaw in our legal system. >  > : > Maybe they were compensated? I'll see if I can find out.  H Even if "compensated" the question would be was the owner compensated atJ the level he expected as the owner of the property or was he "compensated") the amount the other party wanted to pay?    >  > L >> > Some restrictions are for the public good: patents, copyrights, zoning,F >> > which have nothing to do with protecting anyone from stupid acts. >>L >> True, their purpose is to support ambition and not stifle it.  Otherwise,. >> we will end out like the rest of the world. >  > ? > Ah, so you agree there is some good that flows from govt. OK.   D Of course, I am not an anarchist.  Heck, I'm an officer in the Army.4 That's about as far from anarchy as you can get. :-)   > 9 > I understand your concerns about govt. abuse and such.    A I am much more concerned with stupidity than outright abuse.  The + road to hell is paved with good intentions.   H >                                                        I think that isB > an important concern. However, much good comes from govt (no oneH > notices the engine when it runs well and quitely!) and I think it is aH > good thing to try to make govt better. The U.S. is an awesome economicC > power, and I think govt. should get at least some credit for that ( > (certainly not all credit, of course!)  F Actually, in too many cases our economic success is in spite of ratherE than because of government intervention.  Most other governments have F their hands even deeper in business's pockets and the results are very	 apparent.    > F > Relax, man. This is just a discussion and we are "honorable debating+ > opponents". I respect your point of view.   G Oh, I'm relaxed.  I enjoy a good debate.  And I also respect everyone's H right to have their own opinion.  That is, of course, one of the reasonsE why I am still in the Army at the point in life where most people are F retired.  But I will admit that sometimes I read things here that make" me just shake my head and chuckle.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 12:55:04 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3icvl8Fkre59U1@individual.net>   0 In article <11c1d7mnmqg5qc8@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > AEF wrote: > C >> Well, I don't know the details of the GCT. Maybe the owners were G >> compensated. I don't know. But I'm glad it's still there. We're just C >> going to differ on this one. Also, the train station has a great J >> economic value for getting commuters to and from NYC. So, it's not justJ >> artisitic in value. Also, many, many advertisements contain pictures orC >> footage using GCT as a backdrop, giving more benefits. It's also H >> valuable as a tourist atraction, bringing yet more money to the city. >> It's more than just "art".  > G > Railroads were granted favors by government.  It was a 2-way street.  D > Railroads at one time were a large part in the development of the H > country.  Still, having gotten some favored treatment, the government K > can at a later time have some say in the disposing of assets acquired by   > the railroads.  E That's a two edged sword.  The same government that helped build them B changed focus and pretty much destroyed them in favor of a highway@ system and the trucking industry.  Leaving us today with no realC functional rail infrastructure (all of the crrently functional rail B system around here belongs to the Canadians!)  As for disposing ofG assets, that is a can of worms that has yet to be opened.  Around here, F the railroads gave all the land to local municipalities when they wentG bust.  Some of it has been sold to private owners who have built houses H on it.  Some has been converted into Rails-to-Trails.  Interestingly, itI wasn't their's to give away.  The original land grab in most of the cases G I have read stated the railroad had perpetual right to use the land but D when it stopped being a railroad it reverted to the original owners.   > H > The entire issue is subject to much argument, but, at least there are  > real points to argue.   G The only argument I can see is where the right to punish the successful H comes from?  The GCT could be saved while respecting the owners propertyE rights.  But the problem is the ones who wanted it saved don't put as D much value on saving it as the owner did on tearing it down.  So theE real argument is all economic.  Think of it like walking into a store G and knocking a Ming Vase over.  Store says the value is $5000.  You say B it was just an old vase and only worth $10.  Who's value should be considered the right one?     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 13:14:06 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3id0ouFkre59U3@individual.net>   5 In article <d9rh6i$93q$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, + 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: H > In article <x7idnaKOBpB8k13fRVn-ow@rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:8 >> In article <d9p2co$ett$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,/ >>    m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote: 8 >> >In article <CO7jVbSDcNX0@eisner.encompasserve.org>, @ >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>  9 >> ARe you stating that you want government controls over ; >> sales/distributions and redistributions of software that  >> isn't shrinkwrapped?  >  > What makes you think so ? 6 > All I want is to have full control over goods I buy,7 > be it a car or a piece of software on CD or whatever.   I That doesn't apply to any other product, why should it apply to software? ; You can't drive your car as fast as you want on the street. : You can't shoot your gun anywhere or at anything you want. You can't burn your house down. H You can't start a pig farm on your 50x50 backyard in the middle of town.  ? The list just goes on and on.  Why would software be different?   = > I pay the price to the producer to reward him for his work, = > and I respect his IP by not copying his product and selling N > it on my own. In turn I want full rights to do with the product what I want,C > including selling it to somebody else, so he can do with the used  > product whatever *he* likes.> > I don't see any *good* reason why it shouldn't be this way.   F Simple, because the original owner said no and you agreed to his termsH when you bought it.  If you don't like the terms, negotiate better termsE or find another product.  But don't expect the whole world to bend to  your will because it's you.    > < >> You really, really, really, REALLY don't know what you're; >> talking about.  Now you have a million lawyers invovled.  > = > Why ? If the law is crystal-clear consumer-friendly instead ; > of producer-friendly there's no need to involve a lawyer.   B But the producer is the owner.  It's his property to do with as heD pleases.  The current law is crystal-clear producer(owner)-friendly.= Why should any law be in your favor as opposed to the owners?  Sounds pretty arrogant to me.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 13:02:25 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3id031Fkre59U2@individual.net>   0 In article <11c1cf45sucnfea@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > G >> The crucial phrase is "if applied to cars".  Nobody is attempting to G >> apply software licensing rules to car purchases.  Cars are hardware.  > * > What about the software in the car?  :-) > < > Probably all cars with electronic ignitions have software.  D I'm safe there (well, for the moment anyway) as there is no software. in my car, except maybe in the CD player.  :-)   > I > I never was happy about licenses, once purchased, not staying with the  I > hardware when it changes hands.  It has been paid for.  I've read that  7 > if challenged today, such might not hold up in court.   E I can't imagine why.  They are covered by contract law.  Both parties D agree up front so how can a court overturn it?  Nobody forces anyone. to run VMS or any other OS against their will.   > K > Regardless, I do recognize how the licenses were issued, the conditions,  @ > and the right of the owner to enforce the contract conditions. >    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 14:09:34 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3id40uFkuqr6U1@individual.net>   5 In article <d9rjjl$a0s$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, + 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: X > In article <3iass0FklopdU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>  C >> Not in most cases.  You have to accept whatever they offer or go C >> elsewhere.  They have no requirement to accomodate your desires.  > , > maybe the US is located on another planet,4 > but where I live I go into shop and can buy a car,5 > either new or used, with no restrictions on its use  > and full rights to resell it.   D Really?  Over here you have to get the governments permission in theC form of a drivers license and a vehicle registration before you can D even drive it off the lot.  The latter requires that you do businessC with another business in the form of getting insurance.  Unless, of C course, you are going to have it towed to your house and use it for 0 a planter!  Everything in life has restrictions.   >  >>  ? >> It's called contract law.  Two parties are free to negotiate  >> whatever they want. > 8 > Not quite. I don't know the US situation but over here. > we have the concept of "immoral contracts".   D We have the concept of illegal contracts as well, but you would haveC a real hard time convincing a court that the VMS license is somehow C an illegal contract.  Especially when you consider that there is no G reason why you had to enter into the contract in the first place unless  you wanted to.  1 > Don't know if I could translate that correctly,   * Es ist mir egal. Ich spreche auch Deutsch.  L > but an (admittedly exaggerated) example would be to hire a contract killerD > for some job and not paying him for his work. The contract is voidK > from the very beginning, so he has zero chance to get his money, legally. R > (Of course being a professional, he will find ways to get his money, though :-)   A Surely your not equating VMS Licensing with hiring a hitman!! :-)   G > Or another, less exaggerated example: Surrogacy (? if some woman pays A > some other woman to be pregnant instead of herself) is probably @ > allowed in the US, strictly forbidden over here. The contract,$ > no matter if both agreed, is void.  C But, like I said, you would have a hard time proving anything wrong D with the contract nature of the VMS License or pretty much any soft-E ware license, unless you know one that requires giving up your first- ! born male shild for the software.    >  >> > it should be changed,   >>  ? >> Why?  What would further government involvement accomplish?   > % > More consumer-friendly regulations.   A Why more consumer friendly?  The consumer is neither the owner or C the one who put the effort into developing the product.  Why should 7 the consumer desires be held higher than the developer?   = > The right to do with legally acquired products what I want,   > and not what the vendor wants.  F You are free to negotiate such an agreement or choose another product.F But I see no reason why the producer should have to give up the fruitsG of his labors under your terms rather than his.  That is the surest way E I know of to completely stiffle innovation.  Why work harder than the : next guy if he is going to get the reward for your effort?     >  >> TheE >> problem seems to be that you think your way is the best and if the 3 >> law was changed it would change in your favor.    > % > And so it's in the producers favor. , > Depends on who has the stronger lobbyists.  H Maybe, but doesn't change the fact that it is the labors of the producerH that resulted in the product in the first place.  What does the consumerC bring to the table beyond a desire to have someone else's property?    >  >> There is nothing ( >> I can see that supports this premise. > + > Sure. Why should *your* way be the best ? / > I can see nothing that supports this premise.   E I find that statement hard to believe.  How would you feel if you and E one other person went out to dig a hole, you did all the work and the C other guy got paid?  That's basicly what your asking for.  You want A the producer to not be paid what he thinks is a fair wage for his B labors.  If DEC were told up front that it would not be allowed toD profit from any software it wrote do you think VMS would even exist?   >  > H >> >                       IMHO. (OK, I'm aware IP lobbyists would fight >> > that until the bitter end)  >>  1 >> So, should I take it you don't believe in IP?   >  > What makes you think so ?   G The fact that you express the idea that individuals are not entitled to  the fruits of their labors.   O > It's not allowed to replicate CDs (or PAKs for that matter) and to sell them, G > and it's not allowed to reverse-engineer some source code and sell it ? > on my own (w/o permission). That should be enough protection.   E Why?  Why should you get to set the rules for the fruits of my labor? G I made it, I should get to decide what gets done with it.  If you don't F agree with my rules, find another product or write it yourself (we areF talking software here).  What you say, "I can't write an OS like VMS!"G That's the point entirely.  If anyone could do it then it wouldn't have E the value it has.  But anyone can't.  It wa a monumental task and the C one(s) who put in the effort have earned the right to determine how D and under what terms their work is to be utilized.  Anything else is just envy and arrogance.   >  >> You believe that my time 2 >> and labor are not mine to do with as I choose?  > " > Again, what makes you think so ?  F You said so.  You claim that I do not have the right to set a price onG my labors.  That I should be compelled to meet your desires rather than  my own.   + > You create a product, I pay you for that, / > and as soon as it's out your door, it's mine, & > except that I must not replicate it.  E What gives you the right to set the rules?  It's mine. I made it.  If @ I didn't make it you wouldn't even have the option of buying it.   >  >> Without IP rights you' >> end out like the collapsed Russia.    > F > Oh plz, not this one ! Open Source == communism, plz, leave me alone > with this stuff !   B I didn't say that.  I am totally in favor of Open Source.  But notA forced Open Source.  Again, if the producer wants to put his work C out there for the public that's fine.  He is getting what he wanted A for his labors.  But no one else should have the ability to force B another's labors into the Open Source world.  The producer, by theA act of creating his work, has earned the right to determine when, - where, and how it will be used.  No one else.   > > The soviet union crashed for a lot of reasons, but certainly > not due to IP disregard. Plz.   E There was no "property" in the Soviet Union.  There was no reward for G excellence.  There was no reward for anything beyond the mediocre.  The F result, after a few generations, was no innovation, no work beyond theF bare minimum required and the eventual colapse as they could no longerF compete with a world that was striving for excellence.  The result was inevitable.    >  >>  ' >> That's strictly a contract matter.    > B > See above, not if contract law disallowed vendor restrictions.    A But there are no grounds, beyond some people's envy and arrogance D to do that.  If you don't think a program is worth the cost (in bothC money and license terms) don't buy it.  Write your own and compete.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 14:24:33 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3id4t0FkkoqrU1@individual.net>   5 In article <d9rhta$9e2$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, + 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: X > In article <3iahqoFkj28jU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:/ >> In article <W-CdnUCahLNZViLfRVn-jA@rcn.net>,  >> 	jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:  >> >  F >> > It looks like there is a bug.  The dotcom generation has not beenD >> > trained in the consequences of stealing.  Read some of the longB >> > discussions on game newsgroups about this subject.  There are? >> > a growing number of people who have absolutely no idea how % >> > hard/software products are made.  >>  @ >> You can lay a major part of the blame for this at the feet of> >> one of todays computer subculture heroes, Richard Stallman.A >>     "I consider that the golden rule requires that if I like a > >>      program I must share it with other people who like it.C >>      Software sellers want to divide the users and conquer them, A >>      making each user agree not to share with others. I refuse B >>      to break solidarity with other users in this way. I cannot> >>      in good conscience sign a nondisclosure agreement or a% >>      software license agreement."   >>  C >> From this we got the Gnu Public Virus and the idea that there is A >> no inherent value in programs and so they can be given away at B >> will.  All this because he was too stupid to know what the termF >> "Public Domain" meant when he first gave away the code to his early >> version of EMACS. >>  G >> If you draw the conclusion fromt he above that I don't think much of G >> Stallman, you would be right.  I feel he has done more to damage the G >> software world than anyone else.  (Oh yeah, and he didn't invent the F >> idea of "software sharing" mod.sources was created in 1983 and that9 >> was just to formalize what had already been going on.)  >>   > : > this sounds more like a personal feud with Mr. Stallman    I have never met the man.     = > than a rational line of reasoning, and, as shown at several : > occasions, shows an exaggerated obsession with IP, IMHO.  C Is it wrong to believe that everyone deserves the fruits of his own , labors?  Is that an "exaggerated obsession"?    D > The idea of Stallman was/is to share common knowledge with others,  F Share all the common knowledge you want.  If I do something innovativeJ it is not common knowledge.  If it were, it wouldn't have been innovative.G I can make it common knowledge, but I should not be compelled to do so.  That is just plain immoral.   T > and that it's not a good idea to claim exclusive rights to ideas, algorithms, etc.  G His opinion.  If I spent several years of my life developing an idea or E an algorithm that no one else was able to do up to that point in time D why should I not claim exclusive rights to it?  It was the fruits of my labors, not anyone else's.   C > And he doesn't say that you should not be able to earn money with  > software development,   B Actually, originally he did say precisely that.  And being someoneB who at that point in time was feeding my family based on the moneyA I earned developing software, well, you should be able to see why 0 I don't hold him as fondly as some here seem to.  H I'll have to look around my attic and see if I still have the March 1985G issue of Dr. Dobb's.  I think very few people, including his advocates, & actually know what he said originally.  E >                       it's just the source code that should be free Q > to others e.g. to learn from it. You still can compile/package/distribute/teach P > or add other value based on free source code, like the whole Linux world does.D > Of course profits wouldn't be sky-high, but who needs another M$ ?  D Who beyond the producer has the right to set value?  Your "sky-high". profits may be what I feel is my work's value.  J > And don't forget the educational aspects: free software made avalailableH > to people to learn from it or even improve it on their own is probably2 > better than lame classroom or textbook examples.  B Matter of opinion.  But some abstract "educational value" doesn't @ change the fact that it is the producer who should decide if his" work should be made public or not.  F I wonder if anyone (even Stallman himself) remembers the incident thatC actually led to his original tirade and the quagmire we have today.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 07:27:24 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadB Message-ID: <1119968843.982704.74330@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
 Lurker wrote: 1 > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > I > > Yes, ownership means a lot. I'm just trying to say that it is not the K > > be all and end all that you appear to be saying. If I misunderstood you I > > about this, I apologize. In this particular case it there may well be H > > no law to prevent HP from dropping VMS. But maybe there *should* be. > F > A law to prevent a company from dropping a product? Did I undrestandJ > you right? Let's suppose you are a shareholder in the said company. WillE > you take kindly to a goverment which imposes a law which forces the E > company (against it's own decisions) to keep up a product at a loss E > and take, say, 5% off your dividends. How long would you personally . > tolerate that law or stay with that company?    D Wow, I didn't realize I had put it that way. No, I don't think thereG should be a law to such effect. My main concern is that I hate to see a E loss of some great work -- great knowledge. It's like the loss of the G library at Alexandria. I really misspoke here! Sorry about that. What I C meant to say, and again, I apologize for misspeaking, is that there G really should be some way to prevent the loss of this knowledge. I know B ownership is very important -- I have no quibble with that. But itE doesn't have inifinte value (nothing does!). So I am just saying that F other concerns should be taken into account. Those concerns may or may> not change the final outcome, but they should not be dismissed	 outright.     J > > My primary point is that ownership does not automatically mean you can$ > > do what you want no matter what. > @ > Well, of course. A good example would be that if you own a gunL > (quite legally) you are still not allowed to shoot people with it wheneverI > you feel like it. You are also (probably, I'm getting on a shaky ground  > here) J > not allowed to sell it to a person with a criminal record or such. But I > haveI > yet to see a law which forbids you to NOT sell it if you don't want to. N > Or require you to give it away for free (which brings us back to the subject > line more or less).  > K > > Some restrictions are for the public good: patents, copyrights, zoning,  > G > Good, now we agree that piracy (including software piracy) is bad for + > the public good and should be taken down.    Agreed.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 07:53:46 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadC Message-ID: <1119970426.298640.116410@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:E > In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, * >    "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote: > >  > >  > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: H > >> In article <1119880450.608451.259120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,- > >>    "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote:  > >> > > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:? > >> >> In article <Xns967FE7AC9ACC1dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>, 0 > >> >>    "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:1 > >> >> >%NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Bill Gunshannon wrote in + > >> >> >news:3i37lcFj8admU1@individual.net 	 > >> >> > B > >> >> >> In article <Xns967FDFA4867B3dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>,6 > >> >> >>      "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> writes:	 > >> >> > M > >> >> >>> Push comes to shove if HP decides to take OpenVMS off the market,  > atL > >> >> >>> the moment that doesn't seem likely.  If it happens, I'll review > myJ > >> >> >>> position on the distribution of material which others hold the > >> >> >>> copyright on. 
 > >> >> >>J > >> >> >> Why?  How does their taking it off the market in any way affectJ > >> >> >> their ownership of it?  It is their property to do with as theyJ > >> >> >> wish.  If they wish to see it end, then so be it.  It would notJ > >> >> >> be the first OS to suffer such a fate and probably won't be the > >> >> >> last. > >> >J > >> >This may well be the legal reality for this case. However, owners doM > >> >not have the complete right to do whatever they want with what they own I > >> >in all cases: Landmark preservation. Developers wanted to tear down I > >> >Grand Central Terminal. Thanks to the work of preservations, it was J > >> >saved. The owners had no choice in the matter. Zoning laws similarly0 > >> >affect what you can do with your own land. > >> >L > >> >While the case of OSes may well be as you say, I don't think we shouldJ > >> >just accept it as "right". There ARE exceptions as I mentioned aboveK > >> >and in a previous post in this thread. And I strongly feel that there  > >> >*should* be exceptions.  > >>B > >> But there aren't exceptions.  This is the computing biz life. > >  > > E > >That may be true, and I even admitted so. But exceptions exist for J > >other things, so it is not inconceivable that exceptions may one day be > >made for the computing biz. > A > It isn't not your right to create these exceptions for products ? > that are owned by somebody else.  You tread on very dangerous ; > grounds of anarchy here.  Would you like somebody to have = > the same idea about your personal property when they decide : > they want to start making the exception that it is OK to= > take possession of your car just because they felt like it?      Woah!   G 1. The fact is that such exceptions are made all the time. Zoning laws, ; expiration of patents, copyrights, and trademarks; landmark F preservation. Even in the computing biz there are export restrictions.  D 2. If I owned the pyramids and wanted to destroy them, would that be okay?   G 3. If I were a member of a band and played concerts, and my fans wanted G recordings of the concerts, I would make them available. I would not do F like the record comapnies do. There is a demand for a lot of very goodE recorded music that people are willing to pay money for but never see ' the light of day. I think that's wrong.   > 3a. OK, software is different enough to merit more evaluation, discussion, thought, etc.   E What I'm trying to say is that ownership doesn't have infinite value. D There will be exceptions, but there should be a very good reason for each and every exception.   B I AM NOT SAYING EVERYTHING SHOULD BE FREE FOR ALL. NO NO NO NO NO!  ) See my other post from a few minutes ago.    >  > >  > > L > >> >> >Bill, you're right.  And I'm not thinking straight.  I'm letting myL > >> >> >desire to see VMS live on conflict with the reality of who owns it. > >> > > >> >? > >> >I think destroying knowledge like this should be a crime.  > >>= > >> No.  Doing it on purpose, maybe.  What you don't seem to = > >> understand is that this kind of knowledge has be babysat = > >> constantly.  No company will, nor should they, pay money = > >> to babysit old stuff when there is no advantage to their  > >> businesses to do so.  > > G > >I think there are plenty of VMS enthusiasts who would welcome taking % > >over the care and nuturing of VMS.  > = > Yes, and it's called the hobbyists' program.  The OP wanted  > to destroy that.  ? I am against what the OP is doing because he is endangering the  hobbyist program.    >  > >  > >> > ..It isn't,L > >> >legally, but I think it should be. No one lives in a vacuum. On top ofL > >> >their owning the OS, they have sold it and supported it for many, manyH > >> >people. I think implies some reasonable obligations to the buyers! > >>F > >> We are breeding these people.  This is not how life works.  ThereD > >> is no obligation out of the goodness of corporate hearts.  Your4 > >> paycheck depends on this aspect of our economy. > >  > > * > >We are breeding these people? Say what? > 9 > People who think that anybody's work should be free for ) > use whenever the spoiled brats want it.   B I AM NOT SAYING EVERYTHING SHOULD BE FREE FOR ALL. NO NO NO NO NO!  C I just didn't know what people were being bred by whom and what the 
 point was.     > > H > >There is too obligation. If a corporation sells you something that isF > >defective, or worse, dangerous, you can sue them in court. I'm justH > >saying that at some level it seems unfair to pull the carpet out fromJ > >under those who use VMS. I'm not saying that it 100% supreme, but it is > >not 0% either!  > ' > You need to learn how commerce works.   C The U.S. is a great economic power in part due to the fact that the D gov't has established and maintains an environment (business, legal,= academic, what have you) that allows motivated businesses and F individuals to succeed better than in other countries. Part of that isC an occasional exception to "owners rule" for lack of a better term. D These exceptions include zoning laws; expiration of ownership rightsG (copyrights, patents, etc.); eminent domain (I disagree with the recent C Supreme Court's ruling on this issue (New London, CT); safety laws; F criminal and civil laws; protection of the environment laws, etc. Such? exceptions should only be done with very good reason, but there  sometimes IS very good reason.  F So I think I am not really in any great disagreement with you, or BillB Gunshannon, or Lurker. I'm certainly not a communist! I just don'tC think that "well, they own it" should be the end of the discussion. A Such discussion may well give the same end result, but one should D consider that there are competing interests and I think that none of them have infinite value.     E AND AGAIN, I APOLOGIZE FOR MY MISSTATEMENT ABOUT HP'S RIGHT TO DROP A  PRODUCT.  = It was my fault and I accept the blame and the responsiblity.   D I hope that I haven't misspoken again! and that that my thoughts are* better expressed and more clear this time.  7 (Yeah, my communication skills aren't always the best.)    > >  > >  > >> > >> >L > >> >It may be legally okay for them to destroy VMS, but I strongly feel it > >> >should be otherwise. > >>L > >> We are not talking about an active action to destroy a set of software.D > >> This software will disappear if it's not tended by knowledgableF > >> human beings.  If there is no active development going on, nobody: > >> will get paid to babysit old crufty bit arrangements. > >  > > 
 > >See above.  > 9 > No.  You are wrong.  You are talking to someone who has 9 > seen this happen with other bit arrangements.  You have $ > no idea what you're talking about. > >  > >  [...] I > >There are tons of laws about restrictions on ownership. There are even 1 > >some things you are not allowed to own at all!  > = > If you want to change the laws, then do so with established = > procedures.  But you don't have the gumption nor the brains A > to do that.  You want to be a 2-year old and just take whatever @ > you want with no consideration to the owner.  Yet, if somebody= > did a similar action against you, you scream and expect the  > maximum penalties.  E YET AGAIN, I APOLOGIZE FOR MY MISSTATEMENT ABOUT HP'S RIGHT TO DROP A  PRODUCT.  / Though I take issue with your last 2 sentences.    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 14:54:27 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3id6l2FkkaeaU1@individual.net>   5 In article <d9rl4u$ael$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, + 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: X > In article <3iath7Fhmt60U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>  G >> So, you would agree to pay extra for the base OS in order to support E >> the various users who use the parts you don't have any need for?    >  > Well, in principle yes. 1 > Most (if not all) other vendors do it this way, G > and I haven't heard that you pay through your nose to get the base OS $ > of AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, IRIX, etc.  J Yes, but they all have one thing in common,  They are all just warmed overI versions of Unix.  If they weren't kept dirt-cheap no one would use them. B Even today their market share is being constantly eroded by Linux.  ; > BTW we are not talking specialized exotic features here,  < > but stuff like networking, GUI, possibly LVM/JFS features,1 > all of which you would need to run a modern OS.   A I thought we were talking VMS here?  In the OS market VMS is both C specialized and exotic.  It offers features (security, reliability, C scalability, etc.) that none of the OSes you mentioned above offer.    >  >> See, G >> it goes both ways.  If you bundle everything then everything is more E >> expensive.  If you let people only pay for what they need/want the # >> product becomes more attractive.  > - > Still doesn't answer my principle question. = > IBM, Sun, pre-merger HP, etc don't have any problem to make I > their products attractive without a bizarre component/licensing scheme.   B Because they have nothing to offer and thus have to keep margin to@ a minimum all of them making their money selling hardware rather
 than the OS.     >  >>  D >> At this stage of the game, I doubt that royalties to other peopleE >> make up any sizeable amount of the cost of Solaris. I haven't seen C >> the release of the source code yet so I don't know that there is G >> anything in there that still draws royalties.  After all, they offer F >> nothing that is not also offered by Linux and the various BSD's andE >> they don't pay anyone royalties.  Is it so hard to assume that SUN D >> long ago removed anything that was still proprietary beyond their >> own labs? > C > I don't know. But look at IBM, certainly a late-comer in the UNIX > > business, they sure have licensed a lot of stuff from others; > (judging from the copyright's scattered all over the OS). = > And if Sun managed to remove royalty stuff to be cheaper or - > less obligated, why can't DEC^WCompaq^WHP ?   D Probably because DEC^WCompaq^WHP decided to concentrate on what madeF their products desirable and just continue to pay the royalties ratherC than redesigning the wheel. Realize again that the others are just  D flavors of Unix.  The whole world is developing stuff for Unix.  VMSE is unique and any needed development would need to be just as unique. C People always ask why Motif on VMS is so far behind the rest of the F world.  The answer is because VMS is unique and the cost of developingF Motif for it would cost more than the customer base is willing to pay.3 (As a further example, where is Motif for Windows?)    >    >> >  > >> > Sure, it may give them excuses to stop this extra service' >> > for a couple of hobbyist weirdo's.  >>  F >> Can I take it from this that you are not a hobbyist  but a businessE >> user and you think HP should let you use their IP to help you make > >> money but they should not be afforded the same opportunity? > F > No you can't take that. If I were a serious business user I wouldn'tZ > waste my time with a crippled hobbyist program (let alone endless discussions about it) / > but just pay for the real thing and move on.  5 > And I wouldn't call myself a hobbyist either, since O > I did not yet manage to install the stuff. It's just too weird for a straight  > mind.    Interesting.   >   G >> > Still I don't see any business or legal logic that would hinder HP > >> > (or any company) to give away stuff for free even if they, >> > have licensed parts of it from others.  >>  F >> The license they have negotiated with the original owner of the IP. > 5 > Sorry, do you try tell me that such "licenses" say:  > K > "Dear HP, you can use our stuff, but for the binaries you created with it M > you have to charge money, you're not allowed to give them away for free" ?    D Well, it's close.  It actually says, "Dear HP. you can ship binariesD with your OS but for everyone who get's a license to use it you have to pay us $XXXX in royalties."  L It's kind of like the billboards for "Cigarettes at the lowest legal price."J That's just plain silly as the lowest legal price is free,  as long as the taxes get paid.    >   * > sorry, this is beyond my comprehension. O > It's completely HP's business if they charge money for their products or not.   5 But the point is that some of it isn't their product.    > M >> They are a business. They are in business to make money, not give it away. I >> They are already doing more for the hobbyist community than most other 
 >> companies.  >   K >> I am amazed at this concept of "Thanks for letting us use your IP for no M >> cost.  Now open up your wallet and let me have some lunch/beer money too."  > . > For the n'th time, what makes you think so ?  D The fact that people want HP to let them use for free something that. HP then has to pay another party for that use.   > = > BTW, I have paid some 40 Euro or so for the 2 hobbyist CDs, @ > simply because a well-build CD appears to me as an added value* > over a potentially half-broken download.  C I agree.  I have never had a problem installing software fropm a CD @ on my VAXen.  I have had problems with stuff I got via FTP (likeF Multinet).  But it was usually because I corrupted the image somewhere along the way.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 15:37:15 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3id95bFknntvU1@individual.net>   5 In article <d9rplo$c1v$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, + 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: X > In article <3id0ouFkre59U3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >   >> > What makes you think so ?9 >> > All I want is to have full control over goods I buy, : >> > be it a car or a piece of software on CD or whatever. >>  L >> That doesn't apply to any other product, why should it apply to software?> >> You can't drive your car as fast as you want on the street.= >> You can't shoot your gun anywhere or at anything you want. " >> You can't burn your house down.K >> You can't start a pig farm on your 50x50 backyard in the middle of town.  >>  B >> The list just goes on and on.  Why would software be different? > 5 > Your list comprises stuff which is unlawful anyway,   B Isn't that the basis for restrictions?  People here are saying theA law should be changed in favor of the consumer.  Then it would be  illegal.  Duh....   1 > no matter if you "own" the car, the house, etc.   H Yes, but owning the house doesn't remove the restriction.  So why shouldF software be any different. (Ignoring for the moment the point that hasC been made repeatedly that inmost cases you don't "buy" software you B buy a license to use it under certain pre-agreed upon conditions.)  = > But I can sell my house to somebody else without asking the C > guy from whom I bought it. And that should apply to software too.   H And if you "buy" the software, that might be true.  I believe that wouldG put the cost of VMS somehwere around $20,000,000,000.  But you see, you G can't afford it.  So you pay for permission to use it.  And that is all  you do.    > A >> > I don't see any *good* reason why it shouldn't be this way.   >>  I >> Simple, because the original owner said no and you agreed to his terms K >> when you bought it.  If you don't like the terms, negotiate better terms H >> or find another product.  But don't expect the whole world to bend to >> your will because it's you. >>   >> >  ? >> >> You really, really, really, REALLY don't know what you're > >> >> talking about.  Now you have a million lawyers invovled. >> >  @ >> > Why ? If the law is crystal-clear consumer-friendly instead> >> > of producer-friendly there's no need to involve a lawyer. >>  E >> But the producer is the owner.  It's his property to do with as he G >> pleases.  The current law is crystal-clear producer(owner)-friendly.  > ' > A law is not carved in stone forever. / > Many laws have changed in favor of customers.   ? And many have changed against their favor.  When you invite the - government in be careful what you wish for.     9 > A future law could forbid the producers to impose usage . > restrictions once they sold their software,   D Which would limit the companies ability to receive a return on theirB investment which usually results in a decrease in innovation.  Why: spend R&D when your not going ot be allowed to recover it?  5 >                                              whilst G > still keeping IP rights in the sense that replication is not allowed.   D Anytime you tell me what I can and can't do with what came out of myE brain you have taken away my IP.  That's what the "I" stands for. One I can't patent or copyright a car.  One can patent and copyright the design G of that car.  It is the design that is IP, not the car itself.  One can E always replicate the car, but if the design is truly innovative it is E highly unlikely that anyone could independantly duplicate the thought G that went into it.  If I am not allowed control over the design as well < as the finished product then I have had my IP taken from me.  8 > Some producers (like you) might not like it and go out7 > of business, some will arrange with it (and I can see - > not reason why that shouldn't be possible).   E Because there is no reason to innovate if someone else is going to be  the one to profit from it.     > @ >> Why should any law be in your favor as opposed to the owners? > 7 > Because someday more consumers may want more rights ?   F So then, stop being consumers and become pruducers.  Don't be a leech.K Live by the fruits of your own labors rather than demanding other people's.   L > Because there are more consumers than producers (your sig comes to mind) ?  B Why is that?  Could it be because producing takes more effort thanA consuming?  And yet the producers should be expected to do all of B this effort and then give it away to the consumers who do nothing?   >   >> Sounds pretty arrogant to me. > : > Your point of view sounds pretty arrogant to me as well.  E I ask for nothing but the fruits of my labors.  You seem to be asking E for the same thing, the fruits of my labors.  Don't you see a problem  in there somewhere?    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 08:37:21 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadB Message-ID: <1119973041.293062.73750@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:E > In article <1119911179.790552.101040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, ) > 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  > >  > >  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:G > >> In article <1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, , > >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > >> > > >> > > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: K > >> >> In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, / > >> >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: 	 > >> >> > M > >> >> > Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down?  > >> >> . > >> >> Because we have a warped court system. > >> >G > >> > I beg to differ in this case! GCT is a magnificent building that L > >> > deserves to be protected. Not as good as Penn Station was, but still, > >> > pretty good.  > >>K > >> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I have no artistic sense at all I > >> and see most things that others consider "great art" as just so much I > >> junk. (Like the recent fiasco in Central Park)  That being the case, H > >> I see no reason to limit ownership rights because of someone else'sK > >> artistic sense.  If you think it should be preserved, buy it yourself. M > >> At what ever price the owner asks.  If you think it is worth it you will L > >> raise the money but if not, what right do you have to tell me I have toE > >> incur the monetary loss in order to please your aesthetic sense?  > > D > > Well, I don't know the details of the GCT. Maybe the owners wereH > > compensated. I don't know. But I'm glad it's still there. We're justD > > going to differ on this one. Also, the train station has a greatK > > economic value for getting commuters to and from NYC. So, it's not just K > > artisitic in value. Also, many, many advertisements contain pictures or D > > footage using GCT as a backdrop, giving more benefits. It's alsoI > > valuable as a tourist atraction, bringing yet more money to the city.  > > It's more than just "art". > E > None of which is relevant to the owner.  If someone wants it put to I > a diferent purpose than the owner then they should buy it at the owners I > asking price (or whatever price the two parties can negotiate) and then J > whne they own it, do what they want with it.  Recent history (especiallyJ > as covered by a number of recent news programs) would seem to imply thatG > he was not likely to be compensated.  Governments are running rampant . > with the "right of emminent domain" of late.  C I agree with you about the recent abuse emminent domain. I am upset D with the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision re New London, Ct. But IE still think the right decision was made for GCT. If someone owned the D pyramids, and wanted to destroy them to open a car dealership, would that be okay with you?    K > > In one sense it's just a zoning decision, but admittedly a very focused  > > one. > H > And one that takes from one person for the gain of another.  PunishingF > one man for his accomplishments while rewarding another for nothing.    C You seem to imply that ownership rights are infinite in value. With ? that I disagree. Sometimes there are other issues of comparable G importance that must be brought into the equation. But such concerns do ) need to provide sufficient justification.     = > >> >> > Then why are companies sued for defective products?  > >> >> O > >> >> For the same reason they are sued when some idiot does something really M > >> >> stupid with their product that it was not designed for and gets hurt. P > >> >> (Remember, we have the court system that awarded several million dollars7 > >> >> for loss of psychic ability after  a CAT-scan.)  > >> > > >> >N > >> > Well, there's a down side to everything. And that's either the fault of8 > >> > the court system and/or some particular bad laws. > >> > > >> >P > >> >> >                                                    Why does Exxon have4 > >> >> > to "use" its Esso trademark to protect it? > >> >> I > >> >> Because trademarks are a totally different concept with different M > >> >> rules entirely.  A more important question would have been what right J > >> >> did the government have to tell them they had to change their nameB > >> >> in the US?  But that isn't generic to the discussion.  :-) > >> > > >> >L > >> > Depends what you mean by "right". Rights are decided by people. SinceM > >> > people will in general differ on what's right, we have government. Not M > >> > perfect by a long shot, but certainly better than anarchy. And even if N > >> > there is some ultimate set of "God-given rights", people have no way toN > >> > know exactly what these are and will differ on what they are anyway. SoM > >> > ultimately they are decided by people and are subject to discussion as ! > >> > to how things "should be".  > >> >D > >> > People who succeed in the US do so, in part, because the U.S.J > >> > Government, as imperfect as it is, has established and maintains anL > >> > environment in which businesses and individuals can succeed. For thisM > >> > reason I find it not unreasonable that *something* is owed to the govt M > >> > for this. What exactly that should be I'm not here to say. But I don't K > >> > believe the "I did it all on my own so I can do what I want with it" H > >> > story. And in a similar, but slightly different vein, some sportsN > >> > person once observed, "Some people are born on third base and act as if > >> > they had hit a triple." > >> >L > >> > Yes, ownership means a lot. I'm just trying to say that it is not theN > >> > be all and end all that you appear to be saying. If I misunderstood youL > >> > about this, I apologize. In this particular case it there may well beK > >> > no law to prevent HP from dropping VMS. But maybe there *should* be.  > >>M > >> Again, I ask why?  If Steven King wanted to take the original manuscript I > >> for "It" or "Carrie" or any other of his many successes (mind you, I K > >> only ever liked one of his stories and tend not to bother reading most L > >> of what he writes) and burn it in his fireplace so that no one ever sawK > >> it, is that not his right?  What will become of VMS at the end of it's  > >  > > H > > I have no problem with that. No essential information is lost. But IE > > don't think he should be allowed to burn all copies of his books.  > H > Why?  It's his book.  No one has any rights to his IP unless he grants > them.   G Hmmm. People bought their copies of the books and now you say that King B still owns said books?! They didn't license them; they bought them4 outright! Where does the IP come in? Please clarify.  C Mostly, I just hate the loss of good knowledge and the loss of good  technology.     J > >                                                                   ThenK > > all the information would be lost. Sources and images are not the same, 9 > > however. I suppose you could reverse engineer though.  > I > In most cases, not legally,  But then, that's the crux of the argument. I > The many people who believe, for some strange reason, that their wishes ( > and desires out-weigh everyone else's.  G What I am saying is that ownership is not the only consideration. It is B a very important one, but it does not have infinite value. Nothing@ does. There comes, from time to time, compelling reasons to makeF exceptions. But such exceptions need to be well justified. It seems toE me that you're saying such exceptions are never justified. I'm saying , that occasionally they are. We disagree. OK.    J > >> days is stuill unknown.  Like others, I would like to think that whenI > >> the owner at that point (and we also have no way of knowing who that I > >> may be) will just release it all to the public trust.  But they have M > >> no real obligation to do so.  And, this whole discussion may be academic J > >> as, if most of us have our way, VMS will last for a long time to comeG > >> and will only die when it is no longer needed or wanted by anyone.  > >  > >  > >> > >> >C > >> > And even in the computer biz, there are restrictions. Export * > >> > restrictions for national security, > >>H > >> Another good reason not to let the government get involved any moreI > >> than they already are.  Do you know how many VAXen running Unix were C > >> found behind the Iron Curtain when it finally fell? (Both were  > >> restricted export items!) > >  > > C > > Well, someone, maybe it wasn't you, mentioned that there are no / > > ownership restrictions in the computer biz.  > E > Not I.  There are lot's of restrictions, most imposed by the owners I > and therefore proper.  I only object to the government getting involved J > especially when their actions hurt the innocent while letting the guilty > do as they please.    B Can't argue with that! Now we need to establish some more concrete3 criteria as to what constitues guilt and innocence!   K > >                                             I was just countering that. J > > I am not, in general, a fan of restrictions on trade unless there is aH > > very good reason. National security certainly ranks high for me. AndG > > some VAX systems were running there. So? No restriction is perfect.  > F > Perfect?  That's a hoot.  Basicly, the restriction limited access toI > some of the parts of Unix by all of our allies (England, Germany, etc.) G > while basicly being totally ineffective as regards the acquisition of F > the technology by the Communists.  We won't even go into things likeF > the badly flawed export law on 3D milling machines or companies thatJ > openly shipped technology to Russia and even bragged about it on USENET.  C Yes, gov't screws some things up. I have no argument with that. But C they should be given credit for things they do right. And that goes G mostly unnoticed. If that were to suddenly disappear, I'm sure everyone E would take notice. Sometimes you don't know what you've got until you  lose it!   > K > >                                                                     The H > > Space Shuttle blew up, twice (okay, broke up the second time)! There  > > still going to send up more. > G > Yeah, well some of us think the shuttle is a bad idea wether it works I > or not.  Some of us think if the government were out of the picture the E > private comapnies who have held licenses for space craft operations E > would have been doing it for decades and the competition would have 8 > resulted in more efficient and less expensive methods.  < I think that manned space travel is just too big for privateC enterprise. I seriously doubt that any business would be willing to B gamble with that kind of money. I don't believe it would have everD happened were it not for NASA. Though there was competition with the USSR.   G Space travel is very difficult, dangerous, and expensive. And there are F very few good launch sites. FL is excellent for a launch site: 1.) YouE are clos to the equator where the earth's tangential rotational speed G is significant. This speed gives you a head start to getting into orbit @ and results in considerable fuel savings 2.) Most spacecraft areE launched towards the east for this very reason. And the eastern coast , of FL offers ocean for launches that go bad.  < You may have gotten *some* unmanned stuff going from privateF comapanies, but manned space travel? No way. And you'd still need some. kind of governing body to keep things orderly.  D Don't businesses take great advantage of basic research sponsered byG gov't? And taxpayers certainly should, and often do, reap some benefits  from satellites.  D If private business can launch more efficiently than NASA, what's toE stop them? We recently had that $10,000,000 winner reach "the edge of D space". Impressive, but still a long cry from real space travel. AndD what's they're motive? To put up satellites that help busineses makeG money, and help people do land planning and farming, and weather, etc.? G No! They're motivation is to give joy rides to super rich people. Nice.       K > >> >                                     for one. Anti-trust restrictions  > >> > (ask BG!) for two.  > >>F > >> I don't necessarily agree with most anti-trust legislation.  MostC > >> monopolistic practices involve breaking enough other laws that F > >> special ones (especially ones without teeth) are never necessary. > >  > > I > > I see this as government at least trying or pretending to act for the H > > public good. Yes, govt does a lot of stupid and bad things. Like theJ > > odd/even licesne plate scheme during the gas-line days (1973, 1979) toJ > > name a minor grievance of mine. But people succeed in the U.S. in partD > > because govt. has done many things right. Who's going to protectG > > ownership? The govt.! If someone starts cranking out free copies of G > > software, who's going to stop it? You have to give govt. credit for ' > > that. They do do some things right!  > 2 > Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while.  F Well, people succeed here more often and better than most, if not all,A other places. So they must be doing something right! I am all for 0 trying to eliminate stupidity and abuse by govt.  @ Hey, who enforces your rules of ownership? Without govt, it'd beE anarchy. The Wild, Wild West. You have to take the good with the bad.    >  > >  > >> > >> >Q > >> >> >                                             Why can't GM make sell cars - > >> >> > that don't have pollution controls?  > >> >> M > >> >> For the same reason I can't drive on the I81 at 150 mph.  Our elected L > >> >> government decided that it was in the public good to limit pollutionM > >> >> and it isn't worth the cost of making two differnt models in order to K > >> >> service those places that have less strict requirements. (it should L > >> >> be noted that even after both the US and Europe had strict pollutionK > >> >> requirements VW still manufactured the old Beetle without emissions L > >> >> control in Mexico for sale in those places that still allowed them.) > >> >C > >> > I was just making a point with this one, as with the others.  > >>L > >> Actually, GM does "make" and sell cars without pollution controls as doL > >> most of the other car manufacturers worldwide.  You can't drive them onJ > >> the street, but they are free to make and sell them.  I have piles ofH > >> catalogs for parts for my cars that specifically say if I put theseI > >> parts on my car it will no longer be legal on the street.  They have ' > >> no problem making or selling them.  > >  > > OK.  > >  > >> > >> > > >> >> L > >> >> >                                     Why can't a developer build anQ > >> >> > office building ON HIS OWN LAND when it is zoned as a residential area?  > >> >> O > >> >> Because it affects others than himself.  And the one legitimate purpose Q > >> >> of government is to protect it's citizenry.  He is free to convince those O > >> >> he would affect that his plan is good for them and the zoning should be  > >> >> changed. > >> >4 > >> > And eliminating VMS would also affect others. > >>L > >> Matter of opinion.  It is doubtful that more than .002055% of americans8 > >> would even notice it if it went away tomorrow.  :-) > >  > A > Gee, I thought someone would ask where I got a number with that  > precision.    :-)   C Actually, I didn't even round it off! I just said to myself "a tiny 
 minority".   >  > > K > > But without VMS our military will have a harder time protecting us! :-)  > 6 > I'll comment on this the next time it comes up.  :-) >  > >  > > = > >> >> > Copyright laws are another example. Patents expire.  > >> >>  > >> >> Copyrights also expire.  > >> >> 	 > >> >> > P > >> >> > There are tons of laws about restrictions on ownership. There are even8 > >> >> > some things you are not allowed to own at all! > >> >> M > >> >> Most restrictions are about protecting others from the stupid acts of F > >> >> the few.  Exactly how does this apply to the licensing of VMS? > >> > > >> >M > >> > My primary point is that ownership does not automatically mean you can ' > >> > do what you want no matter what.  > >>E > >> True, up to a point.  SO it looks like you need to find a way to C > >> convince the Congress that saving VMS is somehow int he public F > >> interest.  Considering that they don't even condsider it valuableE > >> enough to use themselves, I don't hink you'll have much success.   ( Agreed. But sometimes long odds pay off.  J > > OK. But the gov't's military depends on VMS! So they have an interest. > H > OK,  You've said this twice now.  What evidence do you have to supportH > it?  I am rather deeply involved in computing within the Army (as willI > become apparent to many people here in the not to distant future) and I H > can assure you that VMS has never come up.  There may have been a timeF > once when VMS was important to DOD, but I fear that time has passed.G > VMS is no more important to DOD than to any other business. There are G > bound to be legacy applications that still run on VMS but there isnot G > likely to be any future development being done there now.  The people H > who work in the trenches are not even told of the existence of VMS andI > it is doubtful the people who teach them know anything about it either. 9 > (Didn't we visit this subject just a little while ago?)   " OK. I defer to you on this aspect.   >  > >  > > L > >> >                                  I, for one, am very glad GCT was notN > >> > torn down. It's too bad they couldn't save Penn Station, but I digress. > >>J > >> And as I said above, I don't agree.  But in any case, I don't see whyL > >> someone else should bear the cost of pleasing your aesthetics.  That is  > >> a flaw in our legal system. > >  > > < > > Maybe they were compensated? I'll see if I can find out. > J > Even if "compensated" the question would be was the owner compensated atL > the level he expected as the owner of the property or was he "compensated"+ > the amount the other party wanted to pay?   ? 'Don't know. But it also had great historical value, as well as C economic value for the region as I mentioned before. We disagree on 
 this one. OK.     N > >> > Some restrictions are for the public good: patents, copyrights, zoning,H > >> > which have nothing to do with protecting anyone from stupid acts. > >>N > >> True, their purpose is to support ambition and not stifle it.  Otherwise,0 > >> we will end out like the rest of the world. > >  > > A > > Ah, so you agree there is some good that flows from govt. OK.  > F > Of course, I am not an anarchist.  Heck, I'm an officer in the Army.6 > That's about as far from anarchy as you can get. :-)    ! And we owe you big time for that!     : > > I understand your concerns about govt. abuse and such. > C > I am much more concerned with stupidity than outright abuse.  The - > road to hell is paved with good intentions.   9 So what's the road to heaven paved with? One can but try.   J > >                                                        I think that isD > > an important concern. However, much good comes from govt (no oneJ > > notices the engine when it runs well and quitely!) and I think it is aJ > > good thing to try to make govt better. The U.S. is an awesome economicE > > power, and I think govt. should get at least some credit for that * > > (certainly not all credit, of course!) > H > Actually, in too many cases our economic success is in spite of ratherG > than because of government intervention.  Most other governments have H > their hands even deeper in business's pockets and the results are very > apparent.   G Yes, but overall you have to give credit to gov't for keeping order and 2 for protecting (via enforcement) ownership rights!  H > > Relax, man. This is just a discussion and we are "honorable debating- > > opponents". I respect your point of view.  > I > Oh, I'm relaxed.  I enjoy a good debate.  And I also respect everyone's J > right to have their own opinion.  That is, of course, one of the reasonsG > why I am still in the Army at the point in life where most people are H > retired.  But I will admit that sometimes I read things here that make$ > me just shake my head and chuckle.    F Well, I take the blame for misspeaking before about HP's right to dropG VMS as a product. I just think it would be terrible if it were banished ; from the earth and that that should at least be considered.   D I apologize for misspeaking and didn't mean to get you too riled up.   &-)      >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 17:03:23 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3ide6rFl2uq6U1@individual.net>   B In article <1119973041.293062.73750@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,' 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  >  >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:F >> In article <1119911179.790552.101040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,* >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >> > >> > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: H >> >> In article <1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,- >> >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  >> >> >  >> >> >  >> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:L >> >> >> In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,0 >> >> >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
 >> >> >> >N >> >> >> > Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down? >> >> >>/ >> >> >> Because we have a warped court system.  >> >> > H >> >> > I beg to differ in this case! GCT is a magnificent building thatM >> >> > deserves to be protected. Not as good as Penn Station was, but still,  >> >> > pretty good. >> >> L >> >> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I have no artistic sense at allJ >> >> and see most things that others consider "great art" as just so muchJ >> >> junk. (Like the recent fiasco in Central Park)  That being the case,I >> >> I see no reason to limit ownership rights because of someone else's L >> >> artistic sense.  If you think it should be preserved, buy it yourself.N >> >> At what ever price the owner asks.  If you think it is worth it you willM >> >> raise the money but if not, what right do you have to tell me I have to F >> >> incur the monetary loss in order to please your aesthetic sense? >> >E >> > Well, I don't know the details of the GCT. Maybe the owners were I >> > compensated. I don't know. But I'm glad it's still there. We're just E >> > going to differ on this one. Also, the train station has a great L >> > economic value for getting commuters to and from NYC. So, it's not justL >> > artisitic in value. Also, many, many advertisements contain pictures orE >> > footage using GCT as a backdrop, giving more benefits. It's also J >> > valuable as a tourist atraction, bringing yet more money to the city. >> > It's more than just "art".  >>F >> None of which is relevant to the owner.  If someone wants it put toJ >> a diferent purpose than the owner then they should buy it at the ownersJ >> asking price (or whatever price the two parties can negotiate) and thenK >> whne they own it, do what they want with it.  Recent history (especially K >> as covered by a number of recent news programs) would seem to imply that H >> he was not likely to be compensated.  Governments are running rampant/ >> with the "right of emminent domain" of late.  > E > I agree with you about the recent abuse emminent domain. I am upset F > with the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision re New London, Ct. But IG > still think the right decision was made for GCT. If someone owned the F > pyramids, and wanted to destroy them to open a car dealership, would > that be okay with you?   Yes.  A Let the preservationists buy them, at the owners asking price, if C they want something other than the owners will to be reality.  Once > they are the owners then they are free to do with the pyramids whatever they wish.    >  > L >> > In one sense it's just a zoning decision, but admittedly a very focused	 >> > one.  >>I >> And one that takes from one person for the gain of another.  Punishing G >> one man for his accomplishments while rewarding another for nothing.  >  > A > You seem to imply that ownership rights are infinite in value.    < No, not necessarily infinite.  I am merely stating that I am; the sole arbiter of the value of my property, in particular : my IP.  But real property as well.  I own a house.  If you< want to buy my house must I sell it to you?  Even if I don't< want to move?  What should the asking price be?  What I want> for the house ot what you want to pay?  Why should software be> any different than anything else in the world?  Where did this? idea come from that there are two separate worlds at play here, 7 the real world and the computer world (aka Cyberspace).   E >                                                                With A > that I disagree. Sometimes there are other issues of comparable 5 > importance that must be brought into the equation.    ? But the only thing people seem to be bringing into the equation @ are one man's rights over another man's desires.  No one has anyA right to the fruits of another man's labors.  Why is that so hard @ to comprehend?  If you want software to do what my software doesA you have basicly three options.  Come to an agreement with me for A the use of mine.  Find someone else who has an equivalent product D with an agreement you find more acceptable.  Write your own product.D But there is no legal or moral basis to say that you have some right3 to my product on your terms as opposed to my terms.   I >                                                    But such concerns do + > need to provide sufficient justification.   A What possible justification can you provide for taking the fruits @ of another man's labors rather than requiring said individual to. labor for himself to accomplish the same task?   >  > > >> >> >> > Then why are companies sued for defective products? >> >> >>P >> >> >> For the same reason they are sued when some idiot does something reallyN >> >> >> stupid with their product that it was not designed for and gets hurt.Q >> >> >> (Remember, we have the court system that awarded several million dollars 8 >> >> >> for loss of psychic ability after  a CAT-scan.) >> >> >  >> >> > O >> >> > Well, there's a down side to everything. And that's either the fault of 9 >> >> > the court system and/or some particular bad laws.  >> >> >  >> >> > Q >> >> >> >                                                    Why does Exxon have 5 >> >> >> > to "use" its Esso trademark to protect it?  >> >> >>J >> >> >> Because trademarks are a totally different concept with differentN >> >> >> rules entirely.  A more important question would have been what rightK >> >> >> did the government have to tell them they had to change their name C >> >> >> in the US?  But that isn't generic to the discussion.  :-)  >> >> >  >> >> > M >> >> > Depends what you mean by "right". Rights are decided by people. Since N >> >> > people will in general differ on what's right, we have government. NotN >> >> > perfect by a long shot, but certainly better than anarchy. And even ifO >> >> > there is some ultimate set of "God-given rights", people have no way to O >> >> > know exactly what these are and will differ on what they are anyway. So N >> >> > ultimately they are decided by people and are subject to discussion as" >> >> > to how things "should be". >> >> > E >> >> > People who succeed in the US do so, in part, because the U.S. K >> >> > Government, as imperfect as it is, has established and maintains an M >> >> > environment in which businesses and individuals can succeed. For this N >> >> > reason I find it not unreasonable that *something* is owed to the govtN >> >> > for this. What exactly that should be I'm not here to say. But I don'tL >> >> > believe the "I did it all on my own so I can do what I want with it"I >> >> > story. And in a similar, but slightly different vein, some sports O >> >> > person once observed, "Some people are born on third base and act as if  >> >> > they had hit a triple."  >> >> > M >> >> > Yes, ownership means a lot. I'm just trying to say that it is not the O >> >> > be all and end all that you appear to be saying. If I misunderstood you M >> >> > about this, I apologize. In this particular case it there may well be L >> >> > no law to prevent HP from dropping VMS. But maybe there *should* be. >> >> N >> >> Again, I ask why?  If Steven King wanted to take the original manuscriptJ >> >> for "It" or "Carrie" or any other of his many successes (mind you, IL >> >> only ever liked one of his stories and tend not to bother reading mostM >> >> of what he writes) and burn it in his fireplace so that no one ever saw L >> >> it, is that not his right?  What will become of VMS at the end of it's >> > >> >I >> > I have no problem with that. No essential information is lost. But I F >> > don't think he should be allowed to burn all copies of his books. >>I >> Why?  It's his book.  No one has any rights to his IP unless he grants  >> them. > I > Hmmm. People bought their copies of the books and now you say that King D > still owns said books?! They didn't license them; they bought them6 > outright! Where does the IP come in? Please clarify.  B No, I didn't.  I said "burn the original manuscript".  I am saying@ he has the right to see that his IP never sees the light of day.C Once he publishes the book and you buy it, it is yours. He can then C burn the manuscript but the books remain.  Of course, he is free to C buy up all copies of the book and burn them, too.  Now, suppose you B own the last copy that hasn't been burned.  You paid $4.95 for it.@ How much is it worth?  Can he give you $4.95 and demand that youA give him the book so he can destroy it?  Or might it not be worth < more thant hat to you?  Who sets the price, buyer or seller?   > E > Mostly, I just hate the loss of good knowledge and the loss of good 
 > technology.   @ So do I.  I also hate the fact that a Porsche 911 costs $60,000.B But that doesn't give me the right to insist that the local dealerA sell me one for $1,000.  To be honest, I don't think a Porsche is @ worth anywhere near that much (which is why I don't buy one) butA I don't get to set the price, the owner does.  Why would software  be any different?    >  > K >> >                                                                   Then L >> > all the information would be lost. Sources and images are not the same,: >> > however. I suppose you could reverse engineer though. >>J >> In most cases, not legally,  But then, that's the crux of the argument.J >> The many people who believe, for some strange reason, that their wishes) >> and desires out-weigh everyone else's.  > D > What I am saying is that ownership is not the only consideration.    Matter of opinion.    I >                                                                   It is D > a very important one, but it does not have infinite value. Nothing > does.   E Nobody szaid anything about infinite value.  The question is who sets D the value?  The owner or some outsider who merely covets the owner's	 property?   C >        There comes, from time to time, compelling reasons to make H > exceptions. But such exceptions need to be well justified. It seems toG > me that you're saying such exceptions are never justified. I'm saying . > that occasionally they are. We disagree. OK.  8 I would have a real problem justifying stealing from one6 person in order to give to another in the case of real4 property, but in the case of software I can not even$ comprehend a possible justification.  D And no, I don't think Robin Hood was a hero.  He was merely a thief.  D [As an aside and so you may get an idea where I am coming from, thisG is about the only thing I disagree with Thomas Aquinas on.  He believes C that if you and/or your family are starving and you take bread from C the bakery you are not stealing.  I believe you are still stealing, F but the act is not culpable.  Stealing is always stealing but in some,B very rare, circumstances it may not necissarily be wrong.  But theC circumstances would have to be dire, which is why I don't think the - priciple can be applied to computer software]    >  > K >> >> days is stuill unknown.  Like others, I would like to think that when J >> >> the owner at that point (and we also have no way of knowing who thatJ >> >> may be) will just release it all to the public trust.  But they haveN >> >> no real obligation to do so.  And, this whole discussion may be academicK >> >> as, if most of us have our way, VMS will last for a long time to come H >> >> and will only die when it is no longer needed or wanted by anyone. >> > >> > >> >>  >> >> > D >> >> > And even in the computer biz, there are restrictions. Export+ >> >> > restrictions for national security,  >> >> I >> >> Another good reason not to let the government get involved any more J >> >> than they already are.  Do you know how many VAXen running Unix wereD >> >> found behind the Iron Curtain when it finally fell? (Both were >> >> restricted export items!)  >> > >> >D >> > Well, someone, maybe it wasn't you, mentioned that there are no0 >> > ownership restrictions in the computer biz. >>F >> Not I.  There are lot's of restrictions, most imposed by the ownersJ >> and therefore proper.  I only object to the government getting involvedK >> especially when their actions hurt the innocent while letting the guilty  >> do as they please.  >  > D > Can't argue with that! Now we need to establish some more concrete5 > criteria as to what constitues guilt and innocence!  > L >> >                                             I was just countering that.K >> > I am not, in general, a fan of restrictions on trade unless there is a I >> > very good reason. National security certainly ranks high for me. And H >> > some VAX systems were running there. So? No restriction is perfect. >>G >> Perfect?  That's a hoot.  Basicly, the restriction limited access to J >> some of the parts of Unix by all of our allies (England, Germany, etc.)H >> while basicly being totally ineffective as regards the acquisition ofG >> the technology by the Communists.  We won't even go into things like G >> the badly flawed export law on 3D milling machines or companies that K >> openly shipped technology to Russia and even bragged about it on USENET.  > E > Yes, gov't screws some things up. I have no argument with that. But E > they should be given credit for things they do right. And that goes I > mostly unnoticed. If that were to suddenly disappear, I'm sure everyone G > would take notice. Sometimes you don't know what you've got until you 
 > lose it!  D We in the colonies (as they were affectionately known in those days)A had a governemnt in 1776.  I think we have done pretty good since 
 "loosing" it.    >  >>L >> >                                                                     TheI >> > Space Shuttle blew up, twice (okay, broke up the second time)! There ! >> > still going to send up more.  >>H >> Yeah, well some of us think the shuttle is a bad idea wether it worksJ >> or not.  Some of us think if the government were out of the picture theF >> private comapnies who have held licenses for space craft operationsF >> would have been doing it for decades and the competition would have9 >> resulted in more efficient and less expensive methods.  > > > I think that manned space travel is just too big for privateE > enterprise. I seriously doubt that any business would be willing to " > gamble with that kind of money.   A I think you are wrong.  I used to work for Martin Marietta.  They C purchased one of the first licenses offered in the US for a private G launch facility.  To the best of my knowledge they have never exercised E that license.  It is impossible to compete with NASA which has pretty D much unlimited depth to it's pockets and no need to show a profit toA stay in business.  That's a tough business model to compete with.   D >                                 I don't believe it would have everF > happened were it not for NASA. Though there was competition with the > USSR.   D There was no competition.  Neither competitor had any mandate beyondB spending other people's money.  If it had been privatized and NASAC taken out of the picture I firmly believe we would be a lot further A along then trying to patch together the ancient Space Shuttle for @ one more risky flight.  Even without a clear chance at profit weA have greater advancements in space flight capable vehicles coming D from the private sector.  NASA had a place in the very early days of/ space flight, but their time has come and gone.    > < > Space travel is very difficult, dangerous, and expensive.   F As are most new technologies.  History has shown that a little healthyF competition tends to decrease the last two in most cases while driving? the innovation necessary to attack the first one.  But if trrue 4 competition is not possible, where is the incentive?  I >                                                           And there are H > very few good launch sites. FL is excellent for a launch site: 1.) YouG > are clos to the equator where the earth's tangential rotational speed I > is significant. This speed gives you a head start to getting into orbit B > and results in considerable fuel savings 2.) Most spacecraft areG > launched towards the east for this very reason. And the eastern coast . > of FL offers ocean for launches that go bad.  B And yet we launch from both coasts.  Plus, if the government isn'tC doing it the potential is there to choose alternative sites outside H US as well.  (Hint:  Where does ESA launch from?  Surely not Darmstadt.)   > > > You may have gotten *some* unmanned stuff going from private' > comapanies, but manned space travel?    D Why not?  Who created manned travel by airplane?  I don't know aboutA ESA, but even with the lack of business because you can't compete C with NASA the private companies are still fighting for market share E and a chance to be the first one to offer regularly scheduled tourist 6 flights into space.  I can't see NASA ever doing that.  H >                                      No way. And you'd still need some0 > kind of governing body to keep things orderly.  E We have had a government regulated commercial space business for more F than 2 decades.  The only thing missing is a way to compete profitablyH with a company that runs on tax money and doesn't need to show a profit.   > F > Don't businesses take great advantage of basic research sponsered by	 > gov't?    A I think there is much more research being done privately that the 8 government is taking advantage of today than vice versa.  I >        And taxpayers certainly should, and often do, reap some benefits  > from satellites.  D True, but many wonder if we might not be doing more satellite repair" and replacement if it was private.   > F > If private business can launch more efficiently than NASA, what's to
 > stop them?    D Define "efficiently".  NASA gets it's money from the tax coffers andE has no mandate to show stockholders a profit.  Tough model to compete E with.  Reminds me of a business concept I remember from school called D "a level playing field".  And even with this greatly un-even playingA field private industry still puts quite a bit of money into space D research.  Probably hedging their bets for the day when NASA finally0 gets out of the way and stops blocking progress.  G >            We recently had that $10,000,000 winner reach "the edge of F > space". Impressive, but still a long cry from real space travel. AndF > what's they're motive? To put up satellites that help busineses makeI > money, and help people do land planning and farming, and weather, etc.? I > No! They're motivation is to give joy rides to super rich people. Nice.   D But you have to ask the question why?  That is the only place that aC private company can compete right now because NASA (and I am fairly D certain ESA) can not or will not consider it.  How much do you thinkA the money paid to the russians by that billionare furthered their D program?  That's one difference between business and government.  IfF there is money to be made, business will find it.  It here is money to waste, government will find it.    >  >  > L >> >> >                                     for one. Anti-trust restrictions >> >> > (ask BG!) for two. >> >> G >> >> I don't necessarily agree with most anti-trust legislation.  Most D >> >> monopolistic practices involve breaking enough other laws thatG >> >> special ones (especially ones without teeth) are never necessary.  >> > >> >J >> > I see this as government at least trying or pretending to act for theI >> > public good. Yes, govt does a lot of stupid and bad things. Like the K >> > odd/even licesne plate scheme during the gas-line days (1973, 1979) to K >> > name a minor grievance of mine. But people succeed in the U.S. in part E >> > because govt. has done many things right. Who's going to protect H >> > ownership? The govt.! If someone starts cranking out free copies ofH >> > software, who's going to stop it? You have to give govt. credit for( >> > that. They do do some things right! >>3 >> Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while.  > H > Well, people succeed here more often and better than most, if not all,C > other places. So they must be doing something right! I am all for 2 > trying to eliminate stupidity and abuse by govt. > B > Hey, who enforces your rules of ownership? Without govt, it'd beG > anarchy. The Wild, Wild West. You have to take the good with the bad.   C Yes, but we still need a government that knows what it's job is and 3 knows equally well when to just get out of the way.    >  >> >> > >> >>  >> >> > R >> >> >> >                                             Why can't GM make sell cars. >> >> >> > that don't have pollution controls? >> >> >>N >> >> >> For the same reason I can't drive on the I81 at 150 mph.  Our electedM >> >> >> government decided that it was in the public good to limit pollution N >> >> >> and it isn't worth the cost of making two differnt models in order toL >> >> >> service those places that have less strict requirements. (it shouldM >> >> >> be noted that even after both the US and Europe had strict pollution L >> >> >> requirements VW still manufactured the old Beetle without emissionsM >> >> >> control in Mexico for sale in those places that still allowed them.)  >> >> > D >> >> > I was just making a point with this one, as with the others. >> >> M >> >> Actually, GM does "make" and sell cars without pollution controls as do M >> >> most of the other car manufacturers worldwide.  You can't drive them on K >> >> the street, but they are free to make and sell them.  I have piles of I >> >> catalogs for parts for my cars that specifically say if I put these J >> >> parts on my car it will no longer be legal on the street.  They have( >> >> no problem making or selling them. >> > >> > OK. >> > >> >>  >> >> >  >> >> >>M >> >> >> >                                     Why can't a developer build an R >> >> >> > office building ON HIS OWN LAND when it is zoned as a residential area? >> >> >>P >> >> >> Because it affects others than himself.  And the one legitimate purposeR >> >> >> of government is to protect it's citizenry.  He is free to convince thoseP >> >> >> he would affect that his plan is good for them and the zoning should be >> >> >> changed.  >> >> > 5 >> >> > And eliminating VMS would also affect others.  >> >> M >> >> Matter of opinion.  It is doubtful that more than .002055% of americans 9 >> >> would even notice it if it went away tomorrow.  :-)  >> > >>B >> Gee, I thought someone would ask where I got a number with that >> precision.    :-) > E > Actually, I didn't even round it off! I just said to myself "a tiny  > minority".  J I merely divided the rounded population of the US by the VMS Constant. :-)   >  >> >> >L >> > But without VMS our military will have a harder time protecting us! :-) >>7 >> I'll comment on this the next time it comes up.  :-)  >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > Copyright laws are another example. Patents expire. >> >> >>  >> >> >> Copyrights also expire. >> >> >>
 >> >> >> >Q >> >> >> > There are tons of laws about restrictions on ownership. There are even 9 >> >> >> > some things you are not allowed to own at all!  >> >> >>N >> >> >> Most restrictions are about protecting others from the stupid acts ofG >> >> >> the few.  Exactly how does this apply to the licensing of VMS?  >> >> >  >> >> > N >> >> > My primary point is that ownership does not automatically mean you can( >> >> > do what you want no matter what. >> >> F >> >> True, up to a point.  SO it looks like you need to find a way toD >> >> convince the Congress that saving VMS is somehow int he publicG >> >> interest.  Considering that they don't even condsider it valuable F >> >> enough to use themselves, I don't hink you'll have much success. > * > Agreed. But sometimes long odds pay off. > K >> > OK. But the gov't's military depends on VMS! So they have an interest.  >>I >> OK,  You've said this twice now.  What evidence do you have to support I >> it?  I am rather deeply involved in computing within the Army (as will J >> become apparent to many people here in the not to distant future) and II >> can assure you that VMS has never come up.  There may have been a time G >> once when VMS was important to DOD, but I fear that time has passed. H >> VMS is no more important to DOD than to any other business. There areH >> bound to be legacy applications that still run on VMS but there isnotH >> likely to be any future development being done there now.  The peopleI >> who work in the trenches are not even told of the existence of VMS and J >> it is doubtful the people who teach them know anything about it either.: >> (Didn't we visit this subject just a little while ago?) > $ > OK. I defer to you on this aspect. >  >> >> > >> >M >> >> >                                  I, for one, am very glad GCT was not O >> >> > torn down. It's too bad they couldn't save Penn Station, but I digress.  >> >> K >> >> And as I said above, I don't agree.  But in any case, I don't see why M >> >> someone else should bear the cost of pleasing your aesthetics.  That is ! >> >> a flaw in our legal system.  >> > >> >= >> > Maybe they were compensated? I'll see if I can find out.  >>K >> Even if "compensated" the question would be was the owner compensated at M >> the level he expected as the owner of the property or was he "compensated" , >> the amount the other party wanted to pay? > A > 'Don't know. But it also had great historical value, as well as E > economic value for the region as I mentioned before. We disagree on  > this one. OK.  >  > O >> >> > Some restrictions are for the public good: patents, copyrights, zoning, I >> >> > which have nothing to do with protecting anyone from stupid acts.  >> >> O >> >> True, their purpose is to support ambition and not stifle it.  Otherwise, 1 >> >> we will end out like the rest of the world.  >> > >> >B >> > Ah, so you agree there is some good that flows from govt. OK. >>G >> Of course, I am not an anarchist.  Heck, I'm an officer in the Army. 7 >> That's about as far from anarchy as you can get. :-)  >  > # > And we owe you big time for that!  >  > ; >> > I understand your concerns about govt. abuse and such.  >>D >> I am much more concerned with stupidity than outright abuse.  The. >> road to hell is paved with good intentions. > ; > So what's the road to heaven paved with? One can but try.    I don't know.  Dumb luck?    > K >> >                                                        I think that is E >> > an important concern. However, much good comes from govt (no one K >> > notices the engine when it runs well and quitely!) and I think it is a K >> > good thing to try to make govt better. The U.S. is an awesome economic F >> > power, and I think govt. should get at least some credit for that+ >> > (certainly not all credit, of course!)  >>I >> Actually, in too many cases our economic success is in spite of rather H >> than because of government intervention.  Most other governments haveI >> their hands even deeper in business's pockets and the results are very  >> apparent. > I > Yes, but overall you have to give credit to gov't for keeping order and 4 > for protecting (via enforcement) ownership rights! > I >> > Relax, man. This is just a discussion and we are "honorable debating . >> > opponents". I respect your point of view. >>J >> Oh, I'm relaxed.  I enjoy a good debate.  And I also respect everyone'sK >> right to have their own opinion.  That is, of course, one of the reasons H >> why I am still in the Army at the point in life where most people areI >> retired.  But I will admit that sometimes I read things here that make % >> me just shake my head and chuckle.  >  > H > Well, I take the blame for misspeaking before about HP's right to dropI > VMS as a product. I just think it would be terrible if it were banished = > from the earth and that that should at least be considered.   B I think so too.  I wish there were some way to walk that fine lineD between the owner's rights and society's needs.  But, again, I don'tG think more government involvement is the answer.  Some kind of a public D trust seems the better way to go.  Maybe get a bunch of right mindedF people together to come up with an agreement to escrow things like VMSF with the understanding (and agreement by all parties coincerned) that H should the company reach the point where the product is no longer viableB it would revert to the public domain.  Wishful thinking, I'm sure.   > F > I apologize for misspeaking and didn't mean to get you too riled up.  D I stopped getting riled up a long time ago.  I'm an academic now and I love a good debate.  :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 10:26:48 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <NpWdnaU7cqJY2VzfRVn-vg@rcn.net>  + In article <3icsvgFkudcjU1@individual.net>, ,    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:- >In article <mpGdnfz-3fNdv1zfRVn-sg@rcn.net>,  >	jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: . >> In article <3iahqoFkj28jU1@individual.net>,/ >>    bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: / >>>In article <W-CdnUCahLNZViLfRVn-jA@rcn.net>,  >>>	jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:  >>>>  F >>>> It looks like there is a bug.  The dotcom generation has not beenD >>>> trained in the consequences of stealing.  Read some of the longB >>>> discussions on game newsgroups about this subject.  There are? >>>> a growing number of people who have absolutely no idea how % >>>> hard/software products are made.  >>> @ >>>You can lay a major part of the blame for this at the feet of> >>>one of todays computer subculture heroes, Richard Stallman. >>  ? >> I didn't think he had started the attitude.  I agree he's a  ! >> virus carrier w.r.t. thinking.  > C >He may not have originated the idea but he was one of the first to C >publicly vocalize it and in such a manner that he rapidly acquired + >a herd of sheep to listen to his rantings.  >  >>  A >>>    "I consider that the golden rule requires that if I like a > >>>     program I must share it with other people who like it.C >>>     Software sellers want to divide the users and conquer them, A >>>     making each user agree not to share with others. I refuse B >>>     to break solidarity with other users in this way. I cannot> >>>     in good conscience sign a nondisclosure agreement or a% >>>     software license agreement."   >>> C >>>From this we got the Gnu Public Virus and the idea that there is A >>>no inherent value in programs and so they can be given away at B >>>will.  All this because he was too stupid to know what the termF >>>"Public Domain" meant when he first gave away the code to his early >>>version of EMACS. >>  B >> If you notice, he's not given away a damned thing but tied bits >> up in spaghetti ownerships. > C >I never said he wasn't a hypocrite.  I have always wondered at the D >motives of someone who claims there should be no software ownershipF >but asks developers to sign over their ownership to his organization.  > My label for that was "fucking idiot".  Very few have achieved< this honor.  Stallman isn't smart enough.  But it seems that: he is one of those who has to destroy other people's work.   >  >  >>> G >>>If you draw the conclusion fromt he above that I don't think much of G >>>Stallman, you would be right.  I feel he has done more to damage the G >>>software world than anyone else.  (Oh yeah, and he didn't invent the F >>>idea of "software sharing" mod.sources was created in 1983 and that9 >>>was just to formalize what had already been going on.)  >>  D >> DECUS was software sharing long before Stallman put his prints on
 >> things. > B >DECUS, USENET, and pretty much any other group of developers fromA >the early days.  Kind of reminds of the Ada people claiming they ! >invented "software re-use".  :-)   ; Yes, well...never underestimate NIH syndromes.  It has been B a source of most of our problems.  I've just slightly exaggerated.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 11:48:46 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <o4qdnTqf3s1nylzfRVn-hg@rcn.net>  5 In article <d9rh6i$93q$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, ,    m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote:G >In article <x7idnaKOBpB8k13fRVn-ow@rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: 8 >> In article <d9p2co$ett$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,/ >>    m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote: 8 >> >In article <CO7jVbSDcNX0@eisner.encompasserve.org>, @ >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>  9 >> ARe you stating that you want government controls over ; >> sales/distributions and redistributions of software that  >> isn't shrinkwrapped?  >  >What makes you think so ?5 >All I want is to have full control over goods I buy, 6 >be it a car or a piece of software on CD or whatever.< >I pay the price to the producer to reward him for his work,< >and I respect his IP by not copying his product and sellingH >it on my own. In turn I want full rights to do with the product what I  want, B >including selling it to somebody else, so he can do with the used >product whatever *he* likes. = >I don't see any *good* reason why it shouldn't be this way.    > For the simple reason that you arenn't buying this software.   > < >> You really, really, really, REALLY don't know what you're; >> talking about.  Now you have a million lawyers invovled.  > < >Why ? If the law is crystal-clear consumer-friendly instead: >of producer-friendly there's no need to involve a lawyer.  : This has nothing do with friendliness.  You are not buying: this software.  You do not own it.  It is copyrighted.  Do. you see your name in that copyright statement?   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 11:53:59 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <o4qdnTWf3s2uxFzfRVn-hg@rcn.net>  5 In article <d9rhta$9e2$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, ,    m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote:D >In article <3iahqoFkj28jU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill  Gunshannon) writes: / >> In article <W-CdnUCahLNZViLfRVn-jA@rcn.net>,  >> 	jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:  >> >  F >> > It looks like there is a bug.  The dotcom generation has not beenD >> > trained in the consequences of stealing.  Read some of the longB >> > discussions on game newsgroups about this subject.  There are? >> > a growing number of people who have absolutely no idea how % >> > hard/software products are made.  >>  @ >> You can lay a major part of the blame for this at the feet of> >> one of todays computer subculture heroes, Richard Stallman.A >>     "I consider that the golden rule requires that if I like a > >>      program I must share it with other people who like it.C >>      Software sellers want to divide the users and conquer them, A >>      making each user agree not to share with others. I refuse B >>      to break solidarity with other users in this way. I cannot> >>      in good conscience sign a nondisclosure agreement or a% >>      software license agreement."   >>  C >> From this we got the Gnu Public Virus and the idea that there is A >> no inherent value in programs and so they can be given away at B >> will.  All this because he was too stupid to know what the termF >> "Public Domain" meant when he first gave away the code to his early >> version of EMACS. >>  G >> If you draw the conclusion fromt he above that I don't think much of G >> Stallman, you would be right.  I feel he has done more to damage the G >> software world than anyone else.  (Oh yeah, and he didn't invent the F >> idea of "software sharing" mod.sources was created in 1983 and that9 >> was just to formalize what had already been going on.)  >>   > 9 >this sounds more like a personal feud with Mr. Stallman  $ >than a rational line of reasoning,   4 No, it's based on people's experience with his line.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 09:20:02 -0700# From: "WhoDat?" <whohe@whoever.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadC Message-ID: <1119975602.310051.285570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Michael Kraemer wrote:H > In article <o4qdnTqf3s1nylzfRVn-hg@rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:@ > > >I don't see any *good* reason why it shouldn't be this way. > > @ > > For the simple reason that you arenn't buying this software. > > > @ > > >> You really, really, really, REALLY don't know what you're? > > >> talking about.  Now you have a million lawyers invovled.  > > > @ > > >Why ? If the law is crystal-clear consumer-friendly instead> > > >of producer-friendly there's no need to involve a lawyer. > > * > > This has nothing do with friendliness. > < > Sure it has. A consumer-friendly law could state that once= > you pay money for the CD containing the binary plus (maybe) A > some activation key it's complete yours and you can do whatever F > you want (including reselling) and the producer has no say any more.@ > IP rights of the producer are guaranteed by forbidding copying > and re-engineering etc. J > It's a "simple" act of law, not the religious issue you want to make it.T > I agree with you that this is relatively unlikely to happen, at least for the nextI > few years, but not because the IP propagandists have god on their side, 0 > but simply the (currently) stronger lobbyists. > N > And I still can't see how that would affect the financials of the producers.C > Do car makers go bankrupt because there are used cars out there ?  >  > > You are not buying> > > this software.  You do not own it.  It is copyrighted.  Do2 > > you see your name in that copyright statement?    ) Jeesh. Here's a quote from copyright.com:    ## The First Sale Doctrine   E The physical ownership of an item, such as a book or a CD, is not the ? same as owning the copyright to the work embodied in that item.   A Under the first sale doctrine (section 109 of the Copyright Act), B ownership of a physical copy of a copyright-protected work permitsG lending, reselling, disposing, etc. of the item, but it does not permit B reproducing the material, publicly displaying or performing it, or@ otherwise engaging in any of the acts reserved for the copyrightB holder, because the transfer of the physical copy does not include- transfer of the copyright rights to the work.  ##  G That's for the U.S.A. but quite a few other country's laws are similar. C Read the act and you'll find that the First Sale Doctrine applys to G sofwtare as well. If the OP wants, he can go to a country whose laws do F not comply with this and do whatever he wants with the stuff. However,2 y'all are just burning electrons with this thread.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 06:55:49 -0700 From: "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC C Message-ID: <1119966948.951879.137860@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   @ The file has three record types. This files used to be generatedD entirely on the VAX and the format was decided back in 1982. SeveralG translation steps where done on the graphics files back then. Today the A source file is generated in Autocad on a PC and still needs to be A translated to this final form on the VAX. Each upgrade to Autocad B introduces new features the old translators can not deal with. TheG source and documentation for the translators does not exist. Since only G three operations (move, draw and text) are supported the translation is , easy for me to do in Visual Basic on the PC.  A Each record begins with a two byte VAX integer that indicates the > length of the record in bytes. There are no end of line/recordD characters in the file. The VAX floats require special conversion onG the PC to format them correctly. I write each of the values as required G and have verified the files on the VAX appear identical byte by byte to B existing older files. These conversions result in binary data thatC could be misinterpreted by transfer protocols. I've transferred the G files by binary FTP, ASCII FTP and NTFS. They appear to be unchanged by F the transfer process only if I use NTFS or binary FTP. Yet the file is@ not recognized as variable length record on the VAX. Exchange or< Convert with an FDL file seem to corrupt the file. Using SET4 FILE/ATTRIB=(RFM=SEQ,LRL=2300) does not help either.   1. Header recordC   two byte integer, Hex 4500 = 69 after swapping high and low order  bytes    69 bytes of ASCII text 2. Line drawing record    two byte integer record length$   six byte ASCII file name - char(6)#   four byte record seq - pic '9999' -   three byte ASCII file format name - char(3) &   one byte move or draw flag - char(1)3   two byte qty of move or draw recs - fixed bin(15)    one byte operator - pic '9'    four byte VAX float X - float    four byte VAX float Y - float  3. Text drawing record    two byte integer record length$   six byte ASCII file name - char(6)#   four byte record seq - pic '9999' -   three byte ASCII file format name - char(3)    one byte text flag - char(1)+   two byte qty of text recs - fixed bin(15)    one byte operator - pic '9'    four byte VAX float X - float    four byte VAX float Y - float +   four byte VAX fixed justification - fixed 2   four byte VAX fixed text character count - fixed)   four byte VAX float text height - float (   four byte VAX float text slant - float(   four byte VAX float text slant - float!   four byte VAX float urX - float !   four byte VAX float urY - float +   seventy seven bytes ASCII text - char(77)    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 06:57:22 -0700 From: "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC C Message-ID: <1119967042.891476.226690@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E I've used both without any luck. The file seems damaged by Exhange or  Convert.   LJB    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 07:35:02 -0700 From: "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC C Message-ID: <1119969302.406494.139410@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   D That added an additional two bytes to the start of the file. It alsoF converted all h00 to h20. The file is not usable. Does "rat=cr" expect toE find cr characters in the file? I don't have any but perhaps I should  put G some in. I expect the binary values already in the file could sometimes 
 appear as cr.    thanks   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 07:42:25 -0700 From: "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC C Message-ID: <1119969745.535548.179170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F I tried SET FILE/ATTRIB=(RFM:VAR). It too adds an additional two bytesA to the begining of the file and changes all h00 to h20. If I need D variable length records, don't indicate the length think the VAX mayG want to add those bytes and don't add any end of record markers because E ascii 10 or any other could be part of a VAX float, how would the VAX  find the end of record?    thanks LJB    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:34:31 GMT 7 From: John Malmberg <malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp> 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 2 Message-ID: <b6ewe.7728$Bq4.3474@news.cpqcorp.net>  A It would really help if you would quote what part or part of the  I previous postings that you are replying to including attributions as per  G standard USENET practice.  Otherwise we have to some work to guess who  $ or what you are writing in reply to.  
 LJB wrote:   <SNIP>  C > Each record begins with a two byte VAX integer that indicates the @ > length of the record in bytes. There are no end of line/recordF > characters in the file. The VAX floats require special conversion onI > the PC to format them correctly. I write each of the values as required I > and have verified the files on the VAX appear identical byte by byte to D > existing older files. These conversions result in binary data thatE > could be misinterpreted by transfer protocols. I've transferred the I > files by binary FTP, ASCII FTP and NTFS. They appear to be unchanged by 8 > the transfer process only if I use NTFS or binary FTP.  > I presume that you mean NFS and NTFS is a typographical error.H Yes, if the file is really binary, then it must be transfered in binary.  F And then if you need OpenVMS to handle interpreting the records, then D the file attributes must be changed after the transfer to match the  record type.  F > Yet the file is not recognized as variable length record on the VAX.  G That is correct because none of the public transfer protocols know how  C to translate the record attributes as the file is being transfered.   E Those record attributes do not exist on UNIX or Microsoft disk based  H file systems, which require applications written for those platforms to I be much more complex or to require third party libraries as there are no  = built in routines to automatically handle record based files.   @ > Exchange or Convert with an FDL file seem to corrupt the file.  A As expected from the information that you previously posted, the  E contents of the file were correct, and Exchange/Convert on them will  K only mangle them.  That is why I did not suggest them on my previous posts.   I Those conversion routines will mainly work on TEXT files that are in one  C of the native TEXT formats of the operating system where they were  C created on, or on BINARY formats where the native operating system   supports record attributes.   I Your previous posts showed that the file attributes were not correct for  , how your application needed to use the file.  @ > Using SET FILE/ATTRIB=(RFM=SEQ,LRL=2300) does not help either.  E Of course not, that does not even appear to be a legal syntax and is  H missing at least two fields that are probably critical for a successful  change.   , What happened with what I originally posted:  @ : Set file/attr=(RFM=VAR, RAT=CR, MRS=2300, LRL=2266) !Where theD : actual MRS and LRL should be based on what you know to be based onB : what you wrote in the file.  Usually with variable format files,# : slightly larger values will work.   I The main drawback of having the values larger than what you are actually  I using is that the memory may get wasted because the MRS and LRL are used  F to determine how big of buffers to allocate for processing the record.  C Of course there may be some maximum of MRS that is specific to the   application reading the file.   / Obviously MRS must be equal or larger than LRL.   K Set them too small, and truncated records will be sent to your application.   I Don't change the MRS at all, and your records will probably be truncated  ; to the default of 512 bytes that your previous post showed.   E The RAT=CR may or may not be needed.  The presence of that attribute  H usually implies that the contents of the records are all printable text  characters.   D After you get your other issues solved, and it turns out that there F actually is binary data in the file, see if the application will work I with RAT=NONE, as then it will be more obvious that the file is a binary   file and not a text file.    > 1. Header record  H The description below appears to be in a notation that I have only seen F used in COBOL or very ancient IBM programming manuals, and since I am D not a COBOL programmer, I have no way to translate it into what the D record actually gets physically written out to unless I do a bit of H research.  And it may turn out that the results are extremely dependent  on the platform and compiler.   I The DCL DUMP/block=(start=1,count=1) for a correctly formatted file with  B the blank lines removed would probably be far more useful to this L discussion, because then we all could see what result you are trying to get.   -John ! malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp  Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.359 ************************