1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 29 Jun 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 360       Contents:? Re: Add VAXELN to Hobbyist Program (Was: OpenVMS Hobby Program)   AMD vs Intel: links to Compaq/HP8 Re: ANNOUNCEMENT - OpenVMS Technical Journal - June 2005; Re: Announcment from Ann McQuaid - OpenVMS Hobbyist Program < Re: Can someone tell me what is Command Console Lun ( CCL) ?< Re: Can someone tell me what is Command Console Lun ( CCL) ?< Re: Can someone tell me what is Command Console Lun ( CCL) ?< Re: Can someone tell me what is Command Console Lun ( CCL) ?! Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP ! Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP 5 Re: European VMS Consultants required... for HPS EMEA 5 Re: European VMS Consultants required... for HPS EMEA 5 Re: European VMS Consultants required... for HPS EMEA 5 Re: European VMS Consultants required... for HPS EMEA   free nntp server with this group$ Re: free nntp server with this group$ Re: free nntp server with this group$ Re: free nntp server with this group$ Re: free nntp server with this group) FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS - Nomen Nescio  Re: Hurd an Alpha fan  Re: Hurd an Alpha fan  Re: Hurd an Alpha fan 3 Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm 3 Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm  Re: Monitoring IP traffic * Re: More J F kookery - empty legal threats* Re: More J F kookery - empty legal threats ntp not synchronising  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program # Re: Point of clarification on ISV's # Re: Point of clarification on ISV's # Re: Point of clarification on ISV's # Re: Point of clarification on ISV's  printf conversions Re: printf conversions Re: printf conversions Re: printf conversions Re: printf conversions Questions: PointSecure Products  Speaking of porting VMS  Re: Speaking of porting VMS  Speaking of promoting VMS # Re: US military and confidentiality # Re: US military and confidentiality # Re: US military and confidentiality # Re: US military and confidentiality # Re: US military and confidentiality # Re: US military and confidentiality # Re: US military and confidentiality  Re: Vax emulator Re: Vax emulator Re: Vax emulator' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download  VAX/VMS Mail agent Re: VAX/VMS Mail agent Re: VAX/VMS Mail agent0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC0 Re: write sequential variable len record from PC  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2005 04:30:06 GMT2 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow>H Subject: Re: Add VAXELN to Hobbyist Program (Was: OpenVMS Hobby Program)? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-EdsMO9KIV2q7@dave2_os2.home.ours>   3 On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:29:45 UTC, "C.W.Holeman II"  # <cwhii_googlespam@yahoo.com> wrote:    > Simon Clubley wrote: > 3 > >> Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable?  > >>   > > M > > I've found it very useful over the years, but sadly I'm using it far less N > > these days because my current hobbyist projects are robotics (and related)G > > based. I'm using a Linux system for development and control station J > > purposes because of a lack of suitable software and hardware for VMS -M > > when was the last time that you could power up a VMS laptop in the middle  > > of a field ? :-) > S > Might this become another request for VAXELN to be added to the Hobbyist Program?  >   
 I third that.   C I can't reply to Sue's OP 'cos I still haven't set up a machine at  	 home yet.    --   Cheers - Dave W.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:11:01 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: AMD vs Intel: links to Compaq/HP , Message-ID: <42C22D5A.1F3C511B@teksavvy.com>  b http://news.com.com/AMDs+case+market+forces+or+manipulation/2100-7341_3-5766776.html?tag=nefd.lede  E Artile about the lawsuit that AMD is launching agianst Intel accusing  Intel of antitrust stuff.    Notable in that article:   ##F HP even turned down free microprocessors from AMD in 2002, while IntelF pressured HP senior managers to fire an executive who developed a planD to use AMD chips in HP's Evo brand computers, the complaint states.  ... F The complaint, for example, alleges that in late 2000, then-Compaq CEOD Michael Capellas stopped buying AMD desktop processors because Intel "had a gun to his  head."   ... G AMD further alleges that it was negotiating with IBM on a commercial PC G business partnership, which ended after Intel offered IBM "millions" in  market development funds.  ##    G Just iamgine what sort of weapons Intel used against Compaq and HP with E regards to IA64. (and will probably use similar guns to get SGI/HP to : switch to the 8086 so IA64 can be relieved if its misery).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:10:06 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>A Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT - OpenVMS Technical Journal - June 2005 + Message-ID: <42C202FE.517E6BF1@comcast.net>   " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote: > B > It is my pleasure to announce the June 2005 issue of the OpenVMS > Technical Journal. > F > As always, we have a number of excellent articles for you to enjoy.  >  > [snip] > I > We have some excellent articles about products that run on OpenVMS. EMC C > Legato NetWorker provides backup solutions and supports Oracle in I > particular. LDdriver is a utility that creates virtual disks from files 9 > or even blocks. Find out how to use both in this issue.   @ V8.0 of LD is provided on the freeware site as a .PCSI file (notH .PCSI$COMPRESSED !!! GRRR!!!!). Download it as BINARY, and then do this:  2 $ SET FILE/ATTR=(LRL=8192) HP-VMS-LD-V0800--1.PCSI  C V8.0 has a /LBN qualifier for the CONNECT command that lets you map G block ranges on a physical volume to a LD device. Great for breaking up G those huge SAN array LUNs into more easily usuable chunks. Probably has . other uses, but I've only begun to explore it.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 20:35:57 GMT$ From: "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com>D Subject: Re: Announcment from Ann McQuaid - OpenVMS Hobbyist Program7 Message-ID: <Xns9683E620F4C88dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   ? %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Mister Q wrote in news:1119932863.566911.250110  @g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com   ; > so, Susan, when can we get V7.3-2 and V8.2 Hobbyist kits?   L There are problems with that.  The simplest answer is that you can get them L after enough of the already-pressed CDs have been sold.  I'm sure these are L sold at a price that makes very little - if any - profit once you factor in ( the costs of running the licensing site.  I I've looked into having CD pressing runs done, and the people organizing  F the CDs have my sympathies in trying to balance avalailability versus  current versions.      Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:10:01 -0500 " From: "Schroeder, AJ" <aj1@qg.com>E Subject: Re: Can someone tell me what is Command Console Lun ( CCL) ? * Message-ID: <d9saqp$1bt4$1@sxnews1.qg.com>  & <Don.Zong@gmail.com> wrote in message = news:1119969265.125550.285080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...  > and what is it for ? Thanks! >   H CCL is enabled on ESA/EMA enclosures (maybe others, I've only worked on M ESA/EMA cabinets) to allow management and monitoring of storageworks towers.  J The software that is used in conjunction with CCL is called SWCC (Storage  Works Command Console)  K CCL is the communication path for SWCC. SWCC is a graphical representation   of how your RAID is set up.    One word of caution:  L If you are thinking of turning this on, enabling CCL does have some caveats M that you need to know about! First and foremost, any unit you have ending in  J zero will no longer work properly, CCL is pre-configured to use LUN 0 and @ doesn't play nice with units ending in zero (D0, D10, D20, etc.)  D Secondly, depending on the systems that are connected to your RAID, J enabling/disabling CCL could not only sever the communication channel (if L you are running SWCC) between your computers and the RAID, but also you run  the risk of losing your data!   L My $0.02 is to just leave it disabled unless you plan on using SWCC or need J to utilize SCSI-2 or SCSI-3 for some reason (late revisions of SecurePath M come to mind). Of course that is depending on your controllers, I use mostly  ! HSG80s and used HSZ70s years ago.    HTH,  
 AJ Schroeder     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:37:22 +0100 6 From: "Alex Daniels" <AlexNoSpamDaniels@themail.co.uk>E Subject: Re: Can someone tell me what is Command Console Lun ( CCL) ? 6 Message-ID: <42c1c30b$0$27830$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>  ' ><Don.Zong@gmail.com> wrote in message  > >news:1119969265.125550.285080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > and what is it for ? Thanks! >   L There are many uses for the Command Console LUN (CCL) with VMS, four that I 4 can think of, off the top of my head are as follows:  F SET H/SCSI ('unsupported' in many if not all versions of the ACS, but M 'works' with nearly all the versions I have tried, but can corrupt your data   etc) SWCC RCM  VEVAMON   M If you also run other 'operating systems' on your SANs you will want to look  L into how they operate with LUN 0 and the CCL before enabling it. It is also B best not try and access it with more with more the one concurrent ( connection, even if from multiple hosts.  I With reference to VMS and HSGx0's and HSZ80's specifically, the CCL is a  H type of LUN for communicating between the host and the controller using @ SWCC, CLI commands, or other programs. Once the CCL is enabled, I communication between the controller and the host can be done, without a  E maintenance port cable. Do not use the CCL for maintenance using the  G following utilities and exercisers, SUTIL, FRUTIL, and DILX. For these  & tasks, use the maintenance port cable.  L To see where each CCL is located type SHOW THIS_CONTROLLER FULL, look under M Host port, which will list the Command Console LUN location. Because the CCL  J is not an actual device or unit, the command SHOW UNITs will display only ' unit information but not CCL locations.   D Depending whether being in SCSI-2 or SCSI-3 mode and if transparent J mode(which VMS does not 'support' with HSGx0's), or multiple-bus failover 6 mode is enabled, the way the host sees the CCL varies.  J In SCSI-2 mode with SET MULTIBUS_FAILOVER enabled, all ports will see the " CCL and will be able to access it.E When adding storage units and set SCSI IDs over the CCL or above its  D location, the CCL immediately and automatically moves into the next E available free space, which would be the lowest available target/LUN   setting.  M In SCSI-3 mode, a CCL will occur at LUN 0 of each target ID. In multiple-bus  J failover mode, each CCL will be accessible on the controller that has the L SCSI target ID enabled. As a result, all hosts will have access to each CCL.  M The CCL always remains in a fixed location. It is always located at LUN 0 of  L every target ID. If the CCL is enabled, the host will recognize the CCL. If @ the CCL is not enabled, the host will recognize it as a device. J Subsequently, it will allow configuration of that LUN 0 at that target ID K with a device, but that storage location will not work because it has been   reserved for the CCL.    Alex     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:20:58 +0100 6 From: "Alex Daniels" <AlexNoSpamDaniels@themail.co.uk>E Subject: Re: Can someone tell me what is Command Console Lun ( CCL) ? 6 Message-ID: <42c1cd4d$0$16465$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>  & <Don.Zong@gmail.com> wrote in message = news:1119969265.125550.285080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...  > and what is it for ? Thanks! >    I would also add  Q http://h200007.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c00192396/c00192396.pdf   states  M "It is very important that you set the Console LUN ID to a number other than   zero. If theK Console LUN ID is not set or is set to zero, the OpenVMS host will not see   the controller pair.J After the Console LUN ID is set for a controller pair, you do not have to  concern yourself with K it until another controller pair is introduced in the SAN (see Table 2 for   an example of how the  Console LUN ID displays)."  K That's for using SSSU (another program which uses the CCL and can be added  M to my previous list). I have lots of sample SSSU scripts too, if that's what   you are looking at.   L The non-zero requirement is also true for HSG's in SCSI-3 mode (SET THIS ID  = x) where x is above 1.   Alex   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:04:37 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>E Subject: Re: Can someone tell me what is Command Console Lun ( CCL) ? + Message-ID: <42C201B5.D29A201E@comcast.net>    Don.Zong@gmail.com wrote:  >  > and what is it for ? Thanks!  G It's used for communicating with "SWCC" (StorageWorks Command Console).   D It's also used for communicating with the controller pair via the noH longer supported HSZPAD$SCSITERM program which is the one behind the SET HOST/SCSI command.  F It allows you to communicate with the controller pair without using an> actual disk unit, which can result in data loss or corruption.  H Just be careful not to try using both SWCC and SET HOST/SCSI at the sameG time, and also remember to set the CCL unit number to a non-zero value, H preferably outside range of unit numbers you reasonably expect to use in your storage configuration.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:23:43 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP+ Message-ID: <42C1F81E.A6078D0A@comcast.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > b > In article <42C09E62.7B88F22C@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: >  > >> FAL can open a file andL > >>    change its contents remotely, FTP can only transfer the whole thing.G > >>    To get those capabilities TCPIP$FAL would have to be NFS based.  > > I > > That doesn't seem to follow. FAL need only understand the native file L > > structure(s) of the host system, regardless of where those files reside.8 > > NFS would be possible, but hardly recommendable IMO. > F >    How are you going to open a file remotely and change its contents5 >    using a tool that only transports entire files?    3 You won't. FAL doesn't do that, unless you wnat to.    > Do you plan toH >    download the entire file, update it, and upload the entire results?   See the above.  G >    That's something that FAL and NFS can do, but FTP can't do.  I was D >    under the impression you wanted a FAL style capability via FTP.  H No, I wanted FAL functionality by whatever magic in so far as IP and TCP  and can be made to support that.  J >    As for doing it as an extension, DEC and ISO have already defined it,B >    but you won't be able to use it if one of the systems doesn't4 >    implement the extension, which is usually true.  E These days, almost ANYthing gets around, especially if distributed as  freeware and/or open source.  D Y'know, one thing I've never done is explore the DECnet-IV doc.'s inG detail to see if FAL is actually fully documented. I'm sure it could be F done as an IP service, if one could find an appropriate port number toG use that would be consistent on all platforms where it is installed and  configured.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:26:10 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: DCL enhancement more verb/FTP+ Message-ID: <42C1F8B2.8200EB11@comcast.net>    Tom Linden wrote:  > J > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:14:56 GMT, Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> wrote: > 0 > > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, David J Dachtera wrote: > >  > >> Rob Brown wrote:  > >>> - > >>> On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Bob Koehler wrote:  > >>> K > >>>> In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506241757320.1028@localhost.localdomain>, . > >>>> Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes: > >>>>> 5 > >>>>> Could we also have DELETE/FTP and RENAME/FTP?  > >>>> > >>>>   create/directory/ftp ?  > >>>  > >>> I like that one too. > >>5 > >> $ RSHELL/USER=user/PASS=pass "mkdir newdir_spec"  > >># > >> ...doesn't do it for you, huh?  > > B > > %RSH-E-SERVNOTAVAIL, Remote service is not currently available > > L > > Oh, well.  I don't know why that is not running on the Linux box.  Is it > > dangerous?  F Depends. I'm sure there are exploits that depend on the idiosyncrasies$ of the various underlying platforms.  M > I have always disabled the 'r' commands on unix boxes connected to the net.    INTRAnet, should be o.k.  6 DMZ or no firewall to the outside, asking for trouble.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:06:31 +0200 " From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>> Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required... for HPS EMEA' Message-ID: <42C19FB7.8060007@spam.com>    Dave Froble a crit:  G > With the availability of communications sufficient to outsource help  K > desks and such to India, I'm thinking it can work in both directions. To  H > be sure, there are some things that need hands-on, like powering on a I > server, and such.  But there can also be things that can be outsourced  H > to VMS capable people in the US who aren't interested in re-locating. I > I'm thinking that occasional road trips could be required, and many of  F > us are used to that.  (Did some work in Switzerland.)  But once the E > required work is defined, many times it doesn't matter where it is   > performed.  F Dave, your mission, if you accept it, is to set up the US Chapter for G VMS Cow-Boys Inc. and work on the remote procedure that I will present   to HPS in a few weeks.  F Btw, I need a contact in all EU Countries too. If you are interested,  please send me mail.  F For the rates, give me a few more hours and all you (we) need to know % will be posted in www.VMSgateway.Net.    D.% didier dot morandi at freesurf dot fr    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:52:36 -0400 + From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> > Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required... for HPS EMEAA Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050628164802.0529fb58@mail.patmedia.net>   , At 03:06 PM 6/28/2005, Didier MORANDI wrote: >Dave Froble a =E9crit:  > , >>With the availability of communications=203 >>sufficient to outsource help desks and such to=20 , >>India, I'm thinking it can work in both=202 >>directions. To be sure, there are some things=203 >>that need hands-on, like powering on a server,=20 1 >>and such.  But there can also be things that=20 3 >>can be outsourced to VMS capable people in the=20 1 >>US who aren't interested in re-locating. I'm=20 1 >>thinking that occasional road trips could be=20 ) >>required, and many of us are used to=20 0 >>that.  (Did some work in Switzerland.)  But=202 >>once the required work is defined, many times=20* >>it doesn't matter where it is performed. > 3 >Dave, your mission, if you accept it, is to set=20 4 >up the US Chapter for VMS Cow-Boys Inc. and work=20C >on the remote procedure that I will present to HPS in a few weeks.    If you can get ConsoleWorks=200 <http://www.tditx.com/> (yes, I know it costs=204 money, but...) set up it can be accessed remotely=20, via the web. Since you have access to the=201 console, almost everything (except plugging in=20 3 the box and turning it on) can be done remotely.=20 L Plus you get a stored record of everything that was done via the connection.   Ken=20   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:41:08 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> > Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required... for HPS EMEA3 Message-ID: <42c1c3f3$0$6363$626a14ce@news.free.fr>    Ken Robinson wrote:   F > If you can get ConsoleWorks <http://www.tditx.com/> (yes, I know it G > costs money, but...) set up it can be accessed remotely via the web.  K > Since you have access to the console, almost everything (except plugging  E > in the box and turning it on) can be done remotely. Plus you get a  ? > stored record of everything that was done via the connection.   5 I'm currently writing the specs for the VMS Cow-Boys. L For the moment, I'm fighting on the tasks list, fixed rate/fixed date/fixed / quality issues, and quality control procedures.   Q To me, the Cow-Boys will only need a good Telnet agent and FTP access to the end   user boxes for the mission.    D.   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 22:22:41 GMT$ From: "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com>> Subject: Re: European VMS Consultants required... for HPS EMEA6 Message-ID: <Xns968442678436dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>  ' %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Didier Morandi wrote in + news:42c1c3f3$0$6363$626a14ce@news.free.fr    G > To me, the Cow-Boys will only need a good Telnet agent and FTP access ( > to the end user boxes for the mission.  G I'm not qualified to be one of your "Cow-Boys" (I do have a nice black  : fedora though) but shouldn't you be using encrypted comms?     Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 10:47:10 -0700 From: "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> ) Subject: free nntp server with this group B Message-ID: <1119980830.027577.57650@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  B Does anyone know of a free nntp server that carries this group andF allows posting? I've been using Google and IE but quoting doesn't work= with them. I'd like to find a server and use Outlook Express.    thanks LJB    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:57:35 +0000 (UTC) . From: klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)- Subject: Re: free nntp server with this group . Message-ID: <d9s32f$jn1$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> writes in article <1119980830.027577.57650@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> dated 28 Jun 2005 10:47:10 -0700:C >Does anyone know of a free nntp server that carries this group and  >allows posting?    I Sorry, no.  This group is connected to a mailing list called INFO-VAX, if # you can get on that you can post...   7 >I've been using Google and IE but quoting doesn't work > >with them. I'd like to find a server and use Outlook Express.  G You can quote with Google by using the "preview" button.  It's an extra K couple of clicks but worth it.  Unfortunately, Google has a serious latency J problem -- posts take hours to show up on their web interface, vs. seconds$ or minutes for typical NNTP servers.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:30:19 -0400 + From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> - Subject: Re: free nntp server with this group A Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050628162317.052b9a28@mail.patmedia.net>   , At 01:57 PM 6/28/2005, Keith A. Lewis wrote:- >"LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> writes in article  E ><1119980830.027577.57650@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> dated 28 Jun   >2005 10:47:10 -0700: E > >Does anyone know of a free nntp server that carries this group and  > >allows posting? > J >Sorry, no.  This group is connected to a mailing list called INFO-VAX, if$ >you can get on that you can post... > 9 > >I've been using Google and IE but quoting doesn't work @ > >with them. I'd like to find a server and use Outlook Express. > H >You can quote with Google by using the "preview" button.  It's an extraL >couple of clicks but worth it.  Unfortunately, Google has a serious latencyK >problem -- posts take hours to show up on their web interface, vs. seconds % >or minutes for typical NNTP servers.     C Quoting works fine if you click on "Show Options" and the click on  E "Reply" in the area that shows up. Quoting doesn't work  well if you  , click on the "Reply" at the end of the post.  D Google used to have a serious latency problem, but most of the time 7 when I post via Google groups it shows up very quickly.   E As a test I will post this same reply from GG2 as well as sending it   to the Info-VAX mailing list.    Ken   8 This reply sent via Info-VAX mailing list at 4:30 PM EDT   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 13:31:43 -0700) From: "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn@rbnsn.com> - Subject: Re: free nntp server with this group C Message-ID: <1119990703.415172.245020@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Keith A. Lewis wrote:  > "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> writes in article <1119980830.027577.57650@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> dated 28 Jun 2005 10:47:10 -0700:E > >Does anyone know of a free nntp server that carries this group and  > >allows posting? > K > Sorry, no.  This group is connected to a mailing list called INFO-VAX, if % > you can get on that you can post...  > 9 > >I've been using Google and IE but quoting doesn't work @ > >with them. I'd like to find a server and use Outlook Express. > I > You can quote with Google by using the "preview" button.  It's an extra M > couple of clicks but worth it.  Unfortunately, Google has a serious latency L > problem -- posts take hours to show up on their web interface, vs. seconds& > or minutes for typical NNTP servers.  B Quoting works fine if you click on "Show Options" and the click onD "Reply" in the area that shows up. Quoting doesn't work  well if you, click on the "Reply" at the end of the post.  C Google used to have a serious latency problem, but most of the time 7 when I post via Google groups it shows up very quickly.   G As a test I will post this same reply from GG2 as well as sending it to  the Info-VAX mailing list.   Ken   $ This reply sent via GG2 @4:29 PM EDT   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:04:32 +0000 (UTC) . From: klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)- Subject: Re: free nntp server with this group . Message-ID: <d9se10$ok6$3@newslocal.mitre.org>   Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> writes in article <6.2.3.4.2.20050628162317.052b9a28@mail.patmedia.net> dated Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:30:19 -0400:E >Google used to have a serious latency problem, but most of the time  8 >when I post via Google groups it shows up very quickly.  F Hmmmm, today it's quick.  Last week it wasn't.  Or maybe it's just me.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:37:12 -0400 $ From: "funk49" <funk49@sympatico.ca>2 Subject: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS - Nomen Nescio9 Message-ID: <2Xmwe.7558$mK5.496608@news20.bellglobal.com>    Got no life.   Got no reason to live.   Cross / top polling TROLL L !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!L !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!L !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   K Nomen Nescio - would you just FOAD or would you like me to spell it out for H you ? You got a problem with JF Menzi -- tell someone who gives a damn !2 "Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message2 news:81a0743eefc91dccd41e1371e7d3e20f@dizum.com... > FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
 >    About
 > JF MEZEI > B > The "nobody" troll of rec.travel.air and "John Doe" troll of the > sci.space.* newsgroups.  >  > (Rev. June 25, 2005) > 
 > Written by:  >  > Darrell Larose > 121 Northwestern Ave > Ottawa, ON K1Y 0M1 > (613) 725-0245% > c o t a 3 4 8 @ r o g e r s . c o m 3 > a d 6 0 7 @ F r e e N e t . C a r l e t o n . C A  >  > 1.  Who is JF Mezei? > E > Jean-Francois Mezei is the worst netkook and megatroll to have ever E > hit rec.travel.air and various other usenet newsgroups.  He is also 6 > one of the longest running trolls in usenet history. > E > ***WARNING:  JF MEZEI IS A ROGUE CANCELLER.  HE FORGES THE NAME AND E > E-MAIL ADDRESS OF USENET POSTERS HE DOES NOT AGREE WITH AND CANCELS  > THEIR MESSAGES.*** > G > If you participate in the same newsgroups he does, you should monitor G > the control.cancel newsgroup.  If you find that he has cancelled your ( > messages, forward a copies of them to:% > a b u s e @ t e k s a v v y . c o m % > a b u s e @ a s t r a w e b . c o m % > a b u s e @ t e r a n e w s . c o m  > % > See also http://www.usenetabuse.com  > $ > 2.  How long has he been trolling? >  > For well over a decade.  >  > 3.  Where does he live?  >  > Montreal, Quebec, Canada >  > Jean-Francois Mezei  > 86 Harwood Gate  > Beaconsfield, QC H9W3A3  > (514) 992-0474 > (514) 695-8259 > # > His current e-mail addresses are: ) > j f m e z e i @ t e k s a v v y . c o m + > j f m e z e i @ v a x i n a t i o n . c a  > + > His website is http://www.vaxination.ca .  > , > 4.  What makes him such a malicious troll? > E > His trolling is constant, repetitious, relentless.  Once he invades F > your newsgroup he will stay for decades, troll around the clock, dayH > in and day out, every day of the year, for years and years on end.  HeB > does not listen to pleas to stop, he does not listen to anything6 > anyone tells him, he does not pay attention when theC > misinformation/disinformation he posts is corrected, he just goes E > right on trolling year in, year out like a little child holding his H > ears closed while yelling "I can't hear you, I can't hear anything you > say!"  >  > 5.  What does he troll about?  > H > His favorite subjects are USA-bashing and anything to do with sex.  HeD > hates the USA and Americans and will hijack any thread and turn itE > into a USA-bashing fest.  If he can't do that then he'll just start  > making lewd posts. > & > 6.  What does he hate about the USA? > G > Everything!  He is part of a larger group of Canadian trolls who have G > a visceral hatred of the USA, motivated by envy mostly.  The USA is a D > happier, better, more successful version of their country and they@ > can't stand it.  Some of JF's favorite troll bait is "the BushG > Regime", "the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz axis of evil", "Americans are D > brainwashed", "Cars are evil", "SUVs are evil", "all Americans are > stupid" etc. > % > 7.  What about his sexual trolling?  > G > Ah, that is JF at his trolling best.  No sexual topic is too bizarre. @ > Among his favorites are child sexuality, masturbation, women'sC > genitalia, sex toys, circumcision, the sex lives of Americans (of " > course) ... the list is endless. >  > 8.  Circumcision???  > H > Yes, JF trolled the circumcision newsgroups for years.  He still likes> > to insert circumcision into his trolling every now and then.E > Apparently, JF was traumatized as a child because his parents, poor D > Hungarian immigrants to Canada, left him uncircumcised when he wasD > born, as is the custom in most of the world.  Growing up in CanadaB > where male infant circumcision was prevalent at the time, he wasA > psychologically scarred (so he claims).  As soon as he could he B > arranged to get himself snipped, and then joined the brigades ofG > circumcision proselytizers in the newsgroups advocating the joys of a B > free willy.  His main argument is how much better he was able toD > masturbate after getting circumcised without that "pesky foreskin"H > getting in the way of his enjoyment, and he has made it his mission in) > life to spread the circumcision gospel.  > B > 9.  What's his interest in child sexuality?  That sounds kind of	 > freaky.  > B > Well, everything having to do with Mezei *is* freaky.  Among theG > subjects dear to his heart are the genitals of little boys and girls, G > especially little boy's foreskins (and how tight they are) and little B > girls' hymens.  He is also a tireless activist and advocate thatE > children should be taught to masturbate early on so that they don't . > grow up "sexually repressed like Americans". > G > He also counsels all parents of boys that they constantly check their E > little boys' penises and foreskins frequently to ensure a good fit, H > proper movement, and that they be able to masturbate with no problems.C > Utopia for JF would be a world full of parents manipulating their  > little boys' penises.  > B > 10.  Ewww!  This guy is sounding more and more disgusting by the- > minute!  Are you sure about all this stuff?  > F > Yes, you can check the google archives for yourself.  There's over a) > decade full of Mezei trolling in there.  > E > 11.  How can I find all that out, doesn't he change aliases all the  > time like all trolls do? > D > Of course!  See the appendix below for a list of many of his known > trolling aliases.  > C > 12.  So where does this guy get so much time to troll, doesn't he  > work?  > G > Ha ha ha!  JF hasn't worked a day in his life!  He's an adult baby, a E > grown man who still lives at home with mommy and sleeps all day and B > trolls the newsgroups all night.  In his free time when he isn'tH > trolling he likes to ride his bike down to Dorval Airport and race the% > planes down the runway in his bike.  > ; > 13.  That seems strange, is he mentally ill or something?  > F > Bingo!  JF is a boy in a grown man's body.  Psychologically he neverC > got past the age of 13 and got stuck in a world of bathroom humor H > (i.e. "pull my finger!") and locker room antics that he has never been > able to outgrow. > E > 14.  Speaking of locker rooms, I heard he has a sexual fetish about  > them, is that true?  > B > Yes!  JF goes to the gym not to work out but to watch men in theD > locker room.  He loves to post about the male sexual organs he has? > seen in locker rooms over the years, especially his unnatural H > obsession with foreskins.  He stalks the men in locker rooms trying toD > measure how much foreskin they have, or how little is left if theyH > have been circumcised.  He gets extremely excited when he spots a case > of phimosis. > B > 15.  Oh my Gawd, this guy is nuts!  He should be locked up in an > insane asylum! > F > Yep, JF is certifiably insane.  He lives in a black helicopter / tin= > foil hat world where others are out to get him.  The key to H > understanding JF is that he sees himself as a VICTIM.  To JF the worldF > is out to get him, especially the USA.  Victimhood is what JF is all > about. > F > What seems to have sent him over the edge was when the Canadian railF > system was "killed", in his words.  He used to be a major train nut,F > spotting trains, writing down their numbers and chasing them down atD > the train yard like a good freak.  Then he turned his attention toE > aviation.  Major events that made him fall head first deep into the E > abyss were the bankruptcy of Canadian Airlines and their subsequent H > takeover by Air Canada (whom he sees as evil).  So paranoid is he thatG > when an Air Canada plane crashed he claimed that Air Canada employees F > went lurking about in the night with buckets of white paint to coverG > up the Air Canada markings.  He saw that as symbolic of a cover up of = > the crash investigation.  He has never recovered from this.  > 8 > 16.  Where else does he hang out, I want to avoid him! > H > His main haunt on usenet is comp.os.vms, a newsgroup dedicated to someG > ancient, arcane, obsolete piece of vax crapware that nobody has taken C > seriously for decades.  JF hangs out there with other misfits and E > social dropouts who share his psychological traumas, crying for the 3 > good old vax days of yore.  It's really pathetic!  > # > 17.  Where else does he hang out?  > B > can.internet.highspeed, alt.cellular.fido, and a few other geekyF > computer groups.  For a while after the Shuttle Columbia disaster heD > invaded the sci.space groups, sci.space.shuttle in particular, andH > trolled it relentlessly with the anti-American, conspiracy theory crapG > he's so famous for.  But they ran him off that group and he had to go F > crawling back to comp.os.vms with his tail between his legs, licking
 > his wounds.  > C > 18.  It sounds like comp.os.vms is the only group he respects and  > doesn't troll. > H > Pretty much.  For a megatroll like JF it's impossible not to troll, so@ > he slips in troll bait every now and then, but by and large heC > respects comp.os.vms, and, more importantly, he tries to hide his C > trolling activities from them so they won't find out what a major  > netkook he is. > H > 19.  Wow, sounds like he should be exposed so they will know what kind > of psycho he is! > G > Exactly.  Feel free to post all his trolls to comp.os.vms.  And while H > you're at it post them to can.internet.highspeed and alt.cellular.fidoA > too.  And to alt.usenet.kooks, a group for the likes of JF, and  > news.admin.net-abuse.usenet. > 6 > 20.  What else can I do?  Is there an abuse address? > F > Yes, you should send complaints along with copies of his troll posts > to:  > % > a b u s e @ t e k s a v v y . c o m + > d n s a d m i n @ t e k s a v v y . c o m % > a b u s e @ t e r a n e w s . c o m % > a b u s e @ a s t r a w e b . c o m  > ! > also http://www.usenetabuse.com  > 9 > You can also call directly, troll free, 1-877-779-1575.  >  > TekSavvy Solutions Inc.  > 330 Richmond St., Suite 205  > Chatham, ON, Canada 	 > N7M 1P7  > F > And feel free to distribute this FAQ freely.  Post it to newsgroups,E > email it to people, you may host it at your own website, send it to F > newspapers and magazines that do Internet articles or anything to do > with Montreal or Canada, etc.  >  >  > *** APPENDIX *** > B > List of some of the many trolling aliases used by Mezei over theH > years.  This is only a partial list, he has so many it's impossible to > compile a full list. > ) > j f m e z e i @ t e k s a v v y . c o m 9 > j f m e z e i . s p a m n o t @ t e k s a v v y . c o m # > j f m e z e i @ i s t o p . c o m 3 > j f m e z e i . s p a m n o t @ i s t o p . c o m ) > j f m e z e i @ v i d e o t r o n . c a / > j f m e z e i @ v l . v i d e o t r o n . c a 7 > n o s p a m . j f m e z e i @ v i d e o t r o n . c a = > " j f m e z e i " @ v i d e o t r o n . c a [ n o s p a m ]  > , > nobody <n o b o d y @ n o b o d y . c o m>, > nobody <n o b o d y @ n o b o d y . n e t>, > nobody <n o b o d y @ n o b o d y . o r g>. > nobody <n o b o d y @ n o b o d y . i n f o>, > nobody <n o b o d y @ n o b o d y . i n t>. > nobody <n o b o d y @ n o t h i n g . n i l>( > nobody <n o b o d y @ n u l l . d e v> > % > Janice Staples <jstaples@noaol.com> + > Lorenna Bobbit <lbobbit@ginsu_knives.com> ) > Lando Calrisian <Lcalrisian@empire.org>  > muklak <muklak@eskimo.net> > Sheep skin <sheep@station.au> % > snowy squirrel <squirrel@nest.tree> + > Conspiracy Theory <conspiracy@theory.org> ( > Lou Raccoon <L.Raccoon@wilderness.org>& > Flapping Labias <flabia@anatomy.org>' > Throbbing vulva <t.vulva@anatomy.org>  > Twin Gonads <two@gonads.com>' > Loose Scrotum <l.scrotum@anatomy.org> $ > Raised Organ <R.Organ@anatomy.org>& > Popped Cherry <P.Cherry@anatomy.org>/ > Monica Lewinski <billclinton@westchester.com> ) > Deep Fried Foreskin <dff@mcdonalds.com> $ > Aroma of Smegma <aroma@chanel.org> > Wet fart <w.Fart@smell.org> ) > Pubic dandruff <P.dandruff@anatomy.org> * > Voluptuous Nipple <V.nipple@anatomy.org>( > Inserted Finger <I.Finger@anatomy.org>! > Pubic Nair <shaved@anatomy.org> ) > Flatulent Meatus <F.Meatus@anatomy.org> ' > Lihk Mhygroin <L.MyGroin@anatomy.org>  > Pre Khum <P.Khum@anatomy.org> # > Phi Mosis <Phi.Mosis@anatomy.org> % > Bal Anatis <Bal.Anatis@anatomy.org> " > Fren Ullum <F.Ullum@anatomy.org>& > Ivanna Getlaid <I.Getlaid@onani.org>( > Ivanna Wankalot <I.Wankalot@onani.org>& > Ivanna Umpalot <Humpalot@drevil.com>, > Wan Tnoneofit <W.Tnoneofit@weirdnames.org>  > Wan Itbad <W.Itbad@inneed.org># > Wan Towank <W.ToWank@anatomy.org> ! > Wan Tolik <w.tolik@anatomy.org> & > Testos Terone <t.terone@anatomy.org># > Upper Gonad <U.Gonad@anatomy.org> # > Right Gonad <R.Gonad@anatomy.org> " > Left Gonad <L.Gonad@anatomy.org>& > Tyson's Glands <Tyson.G@anatomy.org>  > Nose Hair <n.hair@anatomy.org>' > Coronal Sulcus <C.Sulcus@anatomy.org> ' > Corpus Cavernus <manhood@anatomy.org> & > Armpit moisture <armpit@anatomy.org> > Onani Room <onani@hotels.com> ( > Arnie's Banana <weiner@terminator.com>* > Raised eyebrows <r.eyebrows@anatomy.org>' > Vas Deferens <V.deferens@anatomy.org> ' > Naked Canuck <N.canuck@naturists.org> ( > Arni's socks <Smelly.Socks@arnold.org>, > Notable Exception <N.exception@untied.com>( > Unpopped Cherry <U.Cherry@anatomy.org>) > Tatooed Ovaries <T.Ovaries@anatomy.org> ) > Pierced eyelid <p.eyelid@piercings.org> * > Limp Tomato <limp.tomato@vegetables.org>. > Eggplant Earrings <e.earrings@piercings.org>0 > Banana Underpants <B.Underpants@hillfiger.org> > Naval Lint <navel@lint.mil> ) > Ingrown Toenail <i.toenail@anatomy.org> ' > Empty Stomach <E.Stomach@anatomy.org> & > Full Stomach <f.stomach@anatomy.org>$ > Smelly Cat <S.Cat@friends.nbc.com>( > Torn Ligament <T.Ligament@anatomy.org>% > Art Tistic <A.Tistic@modern.museum> * > Furry Raccoon <F.Raccoon@wilderness.org>' > Wet Racoon <W.Racoon@wildnerness.org> $ > Mad Racoon <M.Racoon@wildlife.org>' > Lazy Racoon <L.Racoon@wilderness.org> ( > Eaten Racoon <E.Raccoon@mcdonalds.com>) > Happy Raccoon <H.Racoon@wilderness.org> + > Sleeping Racoon <S.Racoon@wilderness.org> ) > Hungry Racoon <H.Racoon@wilderness.org> $ > Horny Raccoon <H.Racoon@fauna.org>* > Smart Raccoon <S.Raccoon@wilderness.org>. > George W Raccoon <GW.Raccoon@wilderness.org>- > Ronald McRaccoon <r.raccoon@wilderness.org> , > Thirsty Raccoon <T.Raccoon@wilderness.org>* > Johnny Raccoon <J.Racoon@wilderness.org>) > Oshi Santo <O.Santo@nx01.starfleet.org> , > Oishi Chinko <O.Chinko@nx01.starfleet.org>! > T.Yellow <T.Yellow@nowhere.com>  > Q <queue@continuum.net>  > Borg Queen <1of1@borg.org>, > Ronald Wilkerson <wilkersonr@sympatico.ca>+ > John Balterman <j.balterman@sympatico.ca>  > = > *DISTRIBUTE FREELY* *DISTRIBUTE FREELY* *DISTRIBUTE FREELY*    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 20:29:07 GMT$ From: "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> Subject: Re: Hurd an Alpha fan6 Message-ID: <Xns9683E4F71D7Adcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>  E %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, JF Mezei wrote in news:42C09F7C.7FDFD8D2@teksavvy.com   $ > susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:I >> 3. he seemed like a guy you could talk to and not someone trying to be  >> a movie star  > E > Sue, is that a jab at the previous CEO ???? :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)   D Careful there JF.  Smileys have been in short supply ever since AOL  connected to the Internet.     Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:40:57 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr>  Subject: Re: Hurd an Alpha fan3 Message-ID: <42c1b5d8$0$6375$626a14ce@news.free.fr>    Doc. wrote:   I  >OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. I  >http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    Username: newuser 	 Password: I %DCL-E-NOCMDPROC, error opening captive command procedure - access denied    :-(    D. --  6 Didier MORANDI - OpenVMS Expert and SAP CRM Specialist6   13 chemin du Gu - 1213 Petit-Lancy (GE) Switzerland3        Tel.: +336 7983 6418 - www.didiermorandi.com    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 21:16:26 GMT$ From: "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> Subject: Re: Hurd an Alpha fan7 Message-ID: <Xns9683ED049C403dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   < %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Didier Morandi wrote in news:42c1b5d8$0$6375 $626a14ce@news.free.fr  
 > Doc. wrote:  > J > >OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems.J > >http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster. >  > Username: newuser  > Password: K > %DCL-E-NOCMDPROC, error opening captive command procedure - access denied   K Sorry about that Didier, try GEIN or DAHMER.  MANSON has a hostunreachable  G problem with disks on DAHMER and needs rebooted.  We don't have remote   console yet so...      Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:54:53 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> < Subject: Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm4 Message-ID: <42c2007c$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote:6 > so if ia64 is done for, what is vms going to run on?   Choose one of the following: a) Power b) Sparc	 c) x86-64 
 d) Opteron e) EV8+  f) nothing by the end of 2007      --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:00:55 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> < Subject: Re: Intel neuters Montvale, Itanic screams in alarm( Message-ID: <opss3zvtaazgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:54:53 -0400, John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   > bob@instantwhip.com wrote:7 >> so if ia64 is done for, what is vms going to run on?  >  > Choose one of the following:
 > a) Power
 > b) Sparc > c) x86-64  > d) Opteron	 > e) EV8+  > f) nothing by the end of 2007  >  > D Why choose one?  I have spent the lasrt 25+ years writing portable  
 productionE quality compilers.  It isn't rocket science.  I was one of the those, A (European space Agency 1970-1974) compilers are more challenging.    > --H > OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV > base.  >  >  > H > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet   > News==----C > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!    > 120,000+ Newsgroups I > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption    > =----    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:13:13 +1000 # From: "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate> " Subject: Re: Monitoring IP traffic/ Message-ID: <42c1bd6a$1@duster.adelaide.on.net>   K A quick look at ifconfig showed it in simplex mode, so I used LANCP to put  / it into FD/100 - seems to have improved a bit!!       < "Keith A. Lewis" <klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG> wrote in message ( news:d9s0om$hto$1@newslocal.mitre.org...2 > "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate> writes in article J > <42c10f31@duster.adelaide.on.net> dated Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:49:43 +1000:I >>Thanks, I will try that - certainly the switch is FD - I will check the  >>Alpha....  > L > We have some switches that are capable of 100-full but default to 100-halfL > if they aren't "auto-negotiate"d with.  The best thing to do is to set the > card to auto-neg in SRM. > 2 > --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.orgA > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:33:25 -0400 $ From: "funk49" <funk49@sympatico.ca>3 Subject: Re: More J F kookery - empty legal threats 9 Message-ID: <vTmwe.7556$mK5.495806@news20.bellglobal.com>   J FOAD you cross / top posting TROLL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!2 "Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message2 news:43027d1a226d6cfe4320bdd605e4434d@dizum.com...E > JF Mezei provided yet another wonderful display of his dementia and 
 > kookdom: >  > >Gregory Morrow wrote:E > >> Lol...me neither Miguel...we should get *something* for at least  sticking > >> around so long... > >  > > D > >You may just get a nice vacation at a government operated resort. > C > Nah, you're just projecting your desires to be with your Al Qaeda  > brethren in Guantanamo.  > K > >I would strongly suggest you contact a real lawyer to advise you on your K > >liabilities for knmowingly reposting the slander posted by Nomen Nescio. > > >You have been warned many times, yet you continue to do it. > @ > I would strongly suggest that you take your ridiculous, empty,H > demented legal threats and shove them up your ass while you masturbate" > with your pesky little foreskin. > A > Unlike you, Greg lives in a democratic country that affords him @ > freedom of speech.  Unlike you, he doesn't live in a backward,E > provincial, uneducated shithole of a backwater where grown men live H > with their mothers in chronic unemployment their whole lives and whoseB > only source of entertainment and amusement in life is hating andC > envying the USA and ranting on usenet like a lunatic making empty  > legal threats. > E > Last I heard, it wasn't a crime anywhere in the LAND OF THE FREE to H > quote what someone else has written, so I suggest you start respectingF > Greg's civil rights under the US Constitution or it might be YOU whoF > might find yourself in a "government operated resort" for conspiringG > to take away a US citizen's rights.  The ACLU will shove a lawsuit up H > your skanky little white trash ass so fast you'll think one of your AlD > Qaeda buddies was butt-fucking you with his shoulder-fired missile > again. > ? > And just for the record, rec.travel.air is not comp.os.vms or G > can.internet.highspeed.  You might have succeeded in intimidating all = > the idiots in those groups into silence and playing by your E > control-freak rules, but you have another thing coming if you think 6 > you're going to be doing the same in rec.travel.air. > H > You'll sooner find yourself getting fucked in the ass by your Al QaedaH > heroes morning noon and night in Gitmo than bully and intimidate r.t.aA > regulars like you did with all those pussies in comp.os.vms and  > can.internet.highspeed.  > 4 > Now fuck off and die, you worthless piece of shit.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:12:59 -0500  From: none <""root\"@(none)"> 3 Subject: Re: More J F kookery - empty legal threats 3 Message-ID: <dfmdnQeeb5t3gl_fRVn-3w@centurytel.net>    Fastload wrote:  > M > You two are getting annoying and your childish nosense is getting old...get 
 > over it! >  > geeeeezzz!  F Right!  It's just kook vs. kook.  Both too sick to notice that nobody  cares.  Pretty sad.    Mb   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:36:42 +1200 6 From: Martin Hunt <martin.hunt@fairfaxnz.REMOVE.co.nz> Subject: ntp not synchronising8 Message-ID: <fl44c1tke5fejh7nv9484431c1m4rpommo@4ax.com>  ( Running TCP/IP V5.4 ECO 1 on VMS V7.3-2.  C I have drawn a blank with HP support so far. They have come up with D "your configuration file doesn't specify where the driftfile is", toF which I have responded "well, it defaults to sys$sysroot:[tcpip$ntp]",F and "ntptrace can't access all the servers back to the root". I say itE shouldn't have to - getting to the next server in the chain should be @ sufficient (we can't get back to the stratum 1 server because of firewall rules).  F Anyway, what I am trying to do is synchronise with a stratum 3 server.A Although I see the server, and its offset details, this server is E never chosen as a server to synchronise with. The following is output  from the "ntpq peer" command:   F      remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset jitterN ==============================================================================F  202.36.54.19    202.36.52.9      3 u   51   64  377    7.813  180758. 7.813 F *LOCAL(0)        LOCAL(0)         8 l   58   64  377    0.000    0.000 7.813   E Note that we are synchronising with ourselves as a fallback position, : but would prefer to synchronise with the stratum 3 server.   The following is from ntptrace:   C 202.36.54.19: stratum 3, offset 181.292783, synch distance 10.24707 B 202.36.52.9: stratum 2, offset 181.312063, synch distance 10.17047 172.24.156.68:  *Timeout*   E I have previously been able to synchronise to clocks on the internet, - but new security policies do not permit this.   < How can I debug this, and find out why it won't synchronise?  C Also, has anyone had any experience with stratum 1 servers, such as D ones which synchronise from GPS? I am tempted to look at that option as an alternative.       ---  Martin Hunt  Systems Administrator  Fairfax New Zealand Limited 
 Wellington New Zealand    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:26:17 -0500 " From: "Schroeder, AJ" <aj1@qg.com>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program* Message-ID: <d9s88q$1bq7$1@sxnews1.qg.com>   > 0 > Do you find the VMS Hobbyist Program valuable?   Very valuable.   > ' > How do you use your Hobbyist license?   J I use it at home for "doing whatever it is that hoobyists do" VMS ran our I entire business at one point in time, but I was never a VMS admin, yet I  K have been intruiged ever since. I am brand new to VMS administration but I  @ use my hobbyist system for NTP, BIND, CSWS, and hopefully samba. > F > Since the license needs to be renewed each year, how do you do that?  F My first year isn't up yet, but I assume that I need to renew through  openvmshobbyist's web site.    > Do you get the CD's?  J I purchased the 7.3-1 ALPHA kit from openvmshobbyist to support the cause.   > D > Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobbyH > costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to > put them.   K I am lucky that my work still uses VMS in some fashion - otherwise I would  M not have access to the newest VMS version 8. I would gladly purchase CD kits  I but they do not seem to be available, maybe if HP packaged them and sold  6 them on their website? That way we could stay current?   > " > What type of machine do you use?  M DS5305 (a white box that can run *nix or VMS!), PWS500a, PWS433a, AS4000x2 -  ; Not all at the same time, power requirements are too great.    > I > The hobbyist program is currently available on VAX, Alpha and Integrity A > how do you think folks will use the hobby license on Integrity?   K If there is buy-in for Integrity (keyword is "if") then I think usage will  J be similar as it is for hobbyists now with VAXen and ALPHA. Personally, I F don't see integrity in my future when I can still pick up inexpensive  digital parts/systems.  K I sincereley hope that this feedback gets compiled into a list and sent up   the chain at HP.   Thanks,   
 AJ Schroeder     ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 20:56:46 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com " Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program+ Message-ID: <d9sdie059s@enews3.newsguy.com>    jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote: I > I know you asked for one item, but here's another; a better channel for H > nonsupported hobbyist users to report problems, bugs, etc to HP, otherI > than using this newsgroup.  Perhaps an HP supported/approved/authorized @ > webpage that allows the equivalent of an SPR submission to theG > appropriate engineering or support group for the product in question, F > formalizing the request even though the requestor would have to knowG > that a specific response (as opposed to an automated acknowledgement) F > was unlikely or flat not going to happen (though the receiving groupH > certainly could contact the submitter if that would be helpful to them# > and the submitter provided info).   L I like this idea, however, at the same time, I would think that for it to beA even remotely workable there would need to be a voluteer group of H "gatekeepers" made up of very knowledgable Hobbyists/Professionals, thatJ would be able to screen the reports.  How many problems that Hobbyists run? into are the result of using marginal hardware, and unsupported G configurations.  After all, I shouldn't be able to submit a ticket just H becuase I've never been able to get OpenVMS running on my Multia.  (BTW,K that's a real "problem", but even I don't care, as I don't have any use for  a Multia running VMS).   		Zane   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 21:24:45 GMT$ From: "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program7 Message-ID: <Xns9683EE6F3E970dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   < %NEWS-I-NEWMSG,  wrote in news:d9sdie059s@enews3.newsguy.com   > jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote: F >> I know you asked for one item, but here's another; a better channelG >> for nonsupported hobbyist users to report problems, bugs, etc to HP, 2 >> other than using this newsgroup.  Perhaps an HPF >> supported/approved/authorized webpage that allows the equivalent ofH >> an SPR submission to the appropriate engineering or support group forC >> the product in question, formalizing the request even though the G >> requestor would have to know that a specific response (as opposed to B >> an automated acknowledgement) was unlikely or flat not going toA >> happen (though the receiving group certainly could contact the H >> submitter if that would be helpful to them and the submitter provided
 >> info).  > H > I like this idea, however, at the same time, I would think that for itF > to be even remotely workable there would need to be a voluteer groupH > of "gatekeepers" made up of very knowledgable Hobbyists/Professionals,C > that would be able to screen the reports.  How many problems that C > Hobbyists run into are the result of using marginal hardware, and G > unsupported configurations.  After all, I shouldn't be able to submit F > a ticket just becuase I've never been able to get OpenVMS running onH > my Multia.  (BTW, that's a real "problem", but even I don't care, as I/ > don't have any use for a Multia running VMS).   E I don't follow Eisner, but doesn't it serve a similar purpose to the  G newsgroup but with less noise?  We have that on Deathrow, and, knowing  J what most of VMS Engineering is like here, if someone reported a bug that 8 could be reproduced they'd raise an internal SPR for it.  A To be honest, I think there's too many people who don't know the  H difference between something that should head towards an SPR route, and G what should go to this newsgroup such that opening up an official, but  / for unsupported persons, channel wouldn't work.      Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 14:44:52 -0700 From: jordan@ccs4vms.com" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby ProgramC Message-ID: <1119995092.480996.224090@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote: K > > I know you asked for one item, but here's another; a better channel for J > > nonsupported hobbyist users to report problems, bugs, etc to HP, otherK > > than using this newsgroup.  Perhaps an HP supported/approved/authorized B > > webpage that allows the equivalent of an SPR submission to theI > > appropriate engineering or support group for the product in question, H > > formalizing the request even though the requestor would have to knowI > > that a specific response (as opposed to an automated acknowledgement) H > > was unlikely or flat not going to happen (though the receiving groupJ > > certainly could contact the submitter if that would be helpful to them% > > and the submitter provided info).  > N > I like this idea, however, at the same time, I would think that for it to beC > even remotely workable there would need to be a voluteer group of J > "gatekeepers" made up of very knowledgable Hobbyists/Professionals, thatL > would be able to screen the reports.  How many problems that Hobbyists runA > into are the result of using marginal hardware, and unsupported I > configurations.  After all, I shouldn't be able to submit a ticket just J > becuase I've never been able to get OpenVMS running on my Multia.  (BTW,M > that's a real "problem", but even I don't care, as I don't have any use for  > a Multia running VMS). >  > 		Zane  B A fair point, though you're not really submitting a trouble ticket@ since there's no guarantee or need for HP to respond (beyond theA courtesy of an acknowledgement that it was received, perhaps also F pointing out that no further response should be expected).  It may notB be workable.  The advantage would be for the VMS and other relatedF groups getting an additional number of beta testers and installers whoC might run into something that the main supported sites didn't.  The E trade-off might be what you describe.  I wonder though how many truly & clueless folks will get to this point:    - finding out about VMS&  - finding out about the hobby program  - joining DECUS or equivalent%  - getting hardware that will run VMS D  - procuring the software, by borrowing, buying the hobby CD or from ebay  - signing up for the licenses8  - installing (or trying to) some or all of the software&  - running some or all of the softwareG  - going to the trouble of connecting to the HP hobby trouble-reporting  website   G It would not be a help site.  Installation problems, other simple stuff G might easily be weeded out and the autoreply request the sender to come E to COV, or ITRC for assistance.  If its a bug or problem report, then F someone probably would need to look at it and dispatch it to the right place.  C I don't know how much manpower, HP or 'volunteers' would need to be F used because I don't know how many folks out there get hobby licenses,E and of those how many would go through the steps, run into a problem, G and go to the trouble of reporting it, as opposed to just posting here. E  Its not windows, its not going to get thousands of hits per week (or   month, or perhaps even year...).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:32:35 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program+ Message-ID: <42C1FA33.90994E94@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote: H > > An FTP site where your user name is your "DECUS" id as registered onL > > your PAKs and your password would be the checksum from your OpenVMS baseJ > > license (sans "-"'s), VAX, Alpha or I64. The account creation could be7 > > automated, driven by the code that issues the PAKs.  >  > I support this 99.7362%  > D > There is the issue of which checksum/password to use when you have > multiple licensed systems.  F I was thinking about that after I posted. I should think the first PAKD issued each year would be the one activated. That would require someE planning and careful execution, but it should be entirely doable. DCL 4 works well with RMS indexed files, to a fair extent.  I > If the Montagar folks's database allow, perhaps it would email the user E > which system-id to use as password (instead of checksum). With a "I F > forgot my password" web page which will email the original owner the > login information.  / Naturally, some such provision would be needed.   @ Alternately, if this were done through Encompass, one's existingA credentials might be enough. I'm just not sure that would provide H "global" coverage, the former DECUS being what it has become, or that itB could provide the tracking and accounting that HP would be sure to require.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:36:43 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> " Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program, Message-ID: <42C21746.881DEB38@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: B > Alternately, if this were done through Encompass, one's existingC > credentials might be enough. I'm just not sure that would provide J > "global" coverage, the former DECUS being what it has become, or that itD > could provide the tracking and accounting that HP would be sure to
 > require.  H Nop. The various DECUS chapters around the world submit membership listsE to the find montagar folks who merge it with previous lists to ensure L that someone who already has hobbyist licences can continue to get new ones.  G The Montagar folks must maintain a seperate list, especially since many 0 DECUS chapters around the world no longer exist.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 23:02:42 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) " Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program3 Message-ID: <STH2V3kpfKqN@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <Xns9683EE6F3E970dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>, "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> writes:  G > I don't follow Eisner, but doesn't it serve a similar purpose to the    > newsgroup but with less noise?    That is an accurate description.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:03:50 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> , Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV's, Message-ID: <42C19F11.7AF05186@teksavvy.com>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote: > ThisI > goes for everyone.  You can use your super hero powers for good or bad. 3 >  You can build up VMS or you can bring it down.       E Sue, "John Smith" has been using that derogative SIG (about diwndling F ISV due to lack of marketing) for a long time.  Sorry to be blunt, butN it is about time that an HP representative finally takes issue with this .SIG.  C I am very happy that you (finally) got up and commented on this and . provided whatever numbers to prove him wrong.   E Having said this, while you may have some numbers to prove him wrong, E the perception is still the same. Until you can get SAP and other big F guys on board VMS, until you can get the full Oracle application suiteF (not just database engine) etc etc, the perception will remain. And inH order to get those big guys on board, you need to advertise VMS and showE to both potential customers and the large ISVs that there is a future ? and growth in the VMS marketplace to make it worth their while.   E You can attract a small ISV who can survive with one or two customers E per year. But for a shop like Oracle, they need to have a much larger N number of customers on VSM to justified full development of their whole suite.   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 21:00:53 GMT$ From: "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com>, Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV's7 Message-ID: <Xns9683EA5EDB2A1dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   F %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Didier MORANDI wrote in news:42C0E627.4030808@spam.com  & > susan_skonetski@hotmail.com a crit:- >> John Smith's signature reads the following  >>  I >> OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV  >> base. >>  F >> As a point of clarifcation, we are regularly getting new ISV's and    <snip>  I As far as I can tell, you're slowly losing my employer.  They just can't  J yet find anything to replace CMS, and they can't get their support people E to stop logging into the VMS system.  If it wasn't for that, I don't  H think I'd be working with VMS anymore.  Plans for the next release will I lock them in to Microsoft in a number of ways and whilst many developers  I will miss VMS, the management appears to have a view that it isn't worth  3 continuing to keep their software available for it.   0 > I see big negative points in an anonymous sig.   Mine's okay, isn't it? :-)  J > If John "Smith" is an HP employee, he may consider to leave the Company 3 > and then be free to post under his real identity.  > % > If he is not, what is he afraid of?   J I don't know, and I hope John will respond.  I do know he's a participant D in some of the privacy newsgroups which may influence his desire to C remain fairly anonymous.  I remain relatively anonymous in this, a  A *public* forum, because my opinons expressed here are none of my   employer's damn business.      Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:43:45 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>, Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV's+ Message-ID: <42C1FCD1.B9D7A992@comcast.net>    Didier MORANDI wrote:  > & > susan_skonetski@hotmail.com a crit:. > > John Smith's signature reads the following > > J > > OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV	 > > base.  > > K > > As a point of clarifcation, we are regularly getting new ISV's and that J > > number is growing not dwindling.  It is unfortunate that some partnersH > > choose not to continue but the number is NOT dwindling.  We have hadI > > nearly 50 new partners (not applications) in the last 2 months.  Each / > > partner can have more than one application.  > > H > > I see little point in negative bad mouthing of VMS in a public forum+ > > and then saying you are a VMS advocate.  > 0 > I see big negative points in an anonymous sig. > I > If John "Smith" is an HP employee, he may consider to leave the Company 3 > and then be free to post under his real identity.  > % > If he is not, what is he afraid of?   E I believe he's discussed that in the past. Try Googling the group for  some appropriate keywords.  H I think Mike Unger's comment about identity theft is right on target, as	 I recall.   F I'm still getting SPAM from when I used my real e-mail address in this group.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:57:35 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>, Subject: Re: Point of clarification on ISV's+ Message-ID: <42C2000F.38B1FF15@comcast.net>    Didier MORANDI wrote:  >  > John Smith a crit:  > N > > I suspect that this would be a career-limiting move on your part or anyoneL > > else at HP, hence the continued need to point it out from the 'outside'.G > > When I see definitive positive-for-VMS changes, I'll change my sig.  >  > John,  > I > I met many people from VMS land in Europe since I did that study end of B > 2003. People from HP, Customers willing to "go itanium with HP",J > Customers who do not know what to do and many Consultants who succeed toD > work here and there to help VMS users, without *any* help from HP. > F >  From what HP said to some of these end users last year, my personalG > opinion is that HP does not want to promote VMS. They have to keep it G > alive mainly because of the DOD market and some really big users that J > cannot be abandoned like a finger snap as it occured with Tru64. So they) > are just waiting for its natural death.   D Nothing "natural" about it. It's been left to the wolves, starved toD near-death, hung out to dry, ... choose your cliche', but the bottomE line is that if OpenVMS were treated like any other highly profitable D product, the ones responsible for the current state of affairs wouldF never work in this industry again - and probably be under scrutiny for- corporate misbehaviors of the notorious kind.   H That said, Sue *IS* right. However, John is also right. The VMS of today( is the merest shadow of its former self.  F Yes, there is a lot of postive stuff to report about VMS. Nowhere near% as much as there could be, but a lot.   H Speaking from experience, the positives don't mean much when one faces aA layoff, possibly the loss of one's home, credit rating, and other G property. That's why our ranks have seen so much attrition. Us die-hard F hold outs cling to every little thing about VMS there is to cling to -? including our anger over the needlessness of its present state.   B I've said before that I'd love to be an OpenVMS Advocate-at-large.E Before that could ever come to be, however, 180-degree turn-abouts of F mind-boggling number and scope would have to happen first. I can't get& up in front of people and lie to them.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:25:09 -0400 + From: Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam>  Subject: printf conversions A Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506282316500.23303@frank.harvard.edu>   $ I ran the following trivial program:   #include <stdio.h>  
 int main() {       printf("%4s\n", "foobar"); "      printf("%*s\n", 4, "foobar");      return 0; }   
 compiled with    $ cc/version) Compaq C V6.5-001 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1    and got the following output  	 $ run foo  foobar foobar  D I was expecting "foob" in both cases.  According to my Harbison and = Steele, Fifth Edition, paragraph "The s conversion" page 396:   J "If a precision specification p is given, then the converted value is the H first p characters of the output [sic: ?input?] string or up to but not @ including the terminating null character, whichever is shorter."  H The asterix in the format control string should cause the argument pull J the integer 4 off the argument list and use that value as the field width.  ' Is this a bug?  If so, is there an ECO?    Chip   --   Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell Turn on, log in, tune out    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:41:38 -0400 + From: Chip Coldwell <coldwell@gmail.nospam>  Subject: Re: printf conversions A Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506282338320.23303@frank.harvard.edu>   ) On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, Chip Coldwell wrote:    > & > I ran the following trivial program: >  > #include <stdio.h> >  > int main() > {  >    printf("%4s\n", "foobar"); " >    printf("%*s\n", 4, "foobar"); >    return 0; > }  >  > compiled with  >  > $ cc/version+ > Compaq C V6.5-001 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1  >  > and got the following output >  > $ run foo  > foobar > foobar > N > I was expecting "foob" in both cases.  According to my Harbison and Steele, 7 > Fifth Edition, paragraph "The s conversion" page 396:  > L > "If a precision specification p is given, then the converted value is the J > first p characters of the output [sic: ?input?] string or up to but not B > including the terminating null character, whichever is shorter."  I Sorry about following-up to my own post here, but I dug out the Compaq C  J Run-Time Library Reference Manual (Feb 2002) and on page 2-18 it seems to  agree with Harbison and Steele:   K "Requires and argument that is a pointer to an array of characters of type  J char.  The argument is used to write characters until a null character is I encountered or until the number of characters indicated by the precision   specification is exhausted."   Chip   --   Charles M. "Chip" Coldwell Turn on, log in, tune out    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:51:12 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: printf conversions + Message-ID: <42C21AAA.D444F76@teksavvy.com>    Chip Coldwell wrote:! >      printf("%4s\n", "foobar"); $ >      printf("%*s\n", 4, "foobar");  ; It is "%.*s" which will print exactly that many characters.   / The text mentions "precision" , not field size.   H %4s means minimum of 4 characters printed, right aligned. (you need %-4s for left aligned).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:32:13 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam>  Subject: Re: printf conversions * Message-ID: <gvpwe.10657$2S.5742@fe03.lga>   Chip Coldwell wrote: > #include <stdio.h> > int main() > {   >     printf("%4s\n", "foobar");# >     printf("%*s\n", 4, "foobar");  >     return 0;  > }  ...   ) > Is this a bug?  If so, is there an ECO?    No. Use  %.4s (or %.*s)    Better?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:06:43 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam>  Subject: Re: printf conversions , Message-ID: <D%pwe.18450$B_3.14812@fe05.lga>   Chip Coldwell wrote:  >>    printf("%4s\n", "foobar");# >>    printf("%*s\n", 4, "foobar");  >>    return 0;   G >> I was expecting "foob" in both cases.  According to my Harbison and  @ >> Steele, Fifth Edition, paragraph "The s conversion" page 396: >>I >> "If a precision specification p is given, then the converted value is  G >> the first p characters of the output [sic: ?input?] string or up to  K >> but not including the terminating null character, whichever is shorter."   K > Sorry about following-up to my own post here, but I dug out the Compaq C  I > Run-Time Library Reference Manual (Feb 2002) and on page 2-18 it seems  $ > to agree with Harbison and Steele:H > "Requires and argument that is a pointer to an array of characters of D > type char.  The argument is used to write characters until a null J > character is encountered or until the number of characters indicated by , > the precision specification is exhausted."  2 The 4 in %4s is not the Precision, it's the Width.  I The complete printf output format is : %FlagsWidth.Precision ; note that  . the precision field _follows_ the . separator.  * Note also that Width is a _minimum_ width.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:52:11 -0500 + From: Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> ( Subject: Questions: PointSecure Products5 Message-ID: <d9s9pe$731$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>   , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------0709050203060101010806039 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I Is anyone running Point Secure's "System Detective" and/or "Point Audit"   products? If so, would you mind G sharing with me how you like the product(s) and any other comments? If  # you are running other products that 1 have similar features, please share them with me.    Thanks in Advance, Chuck Aaron  CERIS Purdue Univ. VMS Systems Manager.  & --------------070905020306010101080603) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   ? <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">  <html> <head>I   <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">    <title></title>  </head> ' <body bgcolor="#339999" text="#ffffff"> A Is anyone running Point Secure's "System Detective" and/or "Point * Audit" products? If so, would you mind<br>F sharing with me how you like the product(s) and any other comments? If' you are running other products that<br> 5 have similar features, please share them with me.<br>  <br> Thanks in Advance,<br> Chuck Aaron<br>  CERIS Purdue Univ.<br> VMS Systems Manager.<br> </body>  </html>   ( --------------070905020306010101080603--   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:36:01 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   Subject: Speaking of porting VMS( Message-ID: <opss3vybnazgicya@hyrrokkin>   These guys might need an OS.  D http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=164903385   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:24:58 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> $ Subject: Re: Speaking of porting VMS4 Message-ID: <42c1f977$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>   Tom Linden wrote:  > These guys might need an OS. > F > http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=164903385    : Yeah, but HP only invents ways of not promoting VMS's use.    1 OTOH, you might want to port a compiler for Cell.      --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:35:00 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> " Subject: Speaking of promoting VMS4 Message-ID: <42c1fbd1$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>  A Sybase sent a broadcast e-mail today, promoting the use of Linux.     H HP does nothing other than produce VMS 'success' stories on glossy paperK that nobody sees, or get posted on a web site that they don't drive traffic  to.   K HP does nothing other than preach to the existing customer base to say that K VMS is right for mission-critical computing, except when Cerner or OM Group   drops a customer into their lap.         Sybase's e-mail below  ----------------------  : Think open-source software can't cut it in the enterprise?  J Still consider Linux short on availability, manageability and scalability?  2 Unsure about vendor support and user endorsements?  E Attend this Web seminar and hear how Sybase and IBM have teamed up to G deliver a complete end-to-end Linux-based data management solution that J meets demanding enterprise computing requirements for high performance and low ownership cost.    The Right Move# Mission-Critical Solutions on Linux   
 July 19, 2005  1 p.m. ET / 10 a.m. PT   Click here to Register Now  . During this one-hour session you will learn...E How the convergence of open-source software and dynamic computing can F deliver IT services that support business goals reliably, securely and cost-effectively. E Why Linux has gained acceptance as a solid enterprise-class operating F environment, adding availability, manageability and scalability to its, strengths in security, reliability and cost.K How IBM eServer OpenPower servers and the Sybase Adaptive Server Enterprise L (ASE) platform comprise a high-performance, flexible and cost-effective data@ management solution that's tuned for the Linux operating system.F The right approach to a smooth migration, and the significant business) benefits and cost savings you can expect.    Keynote presentationJ Joe Clabby, Vice President, Servers and Storage, Summit Strategies, Inc. -H The Move to Linux. An objective look at the Linux operating environment,; related infrastructure, ecosystem and migrational dynamics.    Additional insightH Carl Cappolino, Jr., Program Director, IBM Linux on POWER, IBM Systems &J Technology Group - Sybase and IBM Mission-Critical Solutions on Linux. TheH industry-leading performance and breakthrough pricing of Sybase AdaptiveC Server Enterprise on Linux 64-bit IBM eServer OpenPower technology.   H Jonathan Baker, Senior Manager of Evangelism, Information Technology andF Solutions Group, Sybase, Inc. - Sybase Enterprise Linux Solutions. TheI impressive results achieved with Linux in the enterprise, and the optimum ) Linux solution offered by Sybase and IBM.   H Moderated by Stewart Cheifet - broadcast journalist and former host, PBS Computer Chronicles.   --L OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.      O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:28:52 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> , Subject: Re: US military and confidentiality0 Message-ID: <11c35ilruhct7e5@corp.supernews.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  B > But, as I said in another post recently I would love to see someG > confirmation of this.  As we all know, VMS takes a level of knowledge D > somewhat beyond Windows/Linux.  The military does not teach it norB > openly solicit people with VMS skills.  That being the case, how? > widespread can it really be beyond a few legacy applications?   E The issus here is that you casually dismiss any such usage as "a few  D legacy applications".  The number could be quite large.  Any system > based upon VAX since 1978 could be a candidate for Charon VAX.  0 As for new work, yeah, you made that real clear.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 18:44:17 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), Subject: Re: US military and confidentiality+ Message-ID: <3idk41FkqvrvU1@individual.net>   0 In article <11c35ilruhct7e5@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > C >> But, as I said in another post recently I would love to see some H >> confirmation of this.  As we all know, VMS takes a level of knowledgeE >> somewhat beyond Windows/Linux.  The military does not teach it nor C >> openly solicit people with VMS skills.  That being the case, how @ >> widespread can it really be beyond a few legacy applications? > G > The issus here is that you casually dismiss any such usage as "a few   > legacy applications".     B I don't mean toi dismiss them at all. As a matter of fact, I wouldA very much like to know of places where my talents could be better B put to use.  And like it or not, while I may not be of the caliberC of some of you, I do have several years of VMS experience to offer.   9 >                       The number could be quite large.    9 Could be, but the larger it was the harder it would be to 8 hide it and up til now they have been doing a prety good6 job of hiding it from me.  I've sat at dinner with the; two top Warrant Officers in the Signal Corps while snickers ; were exchanged about the stuff I run in my basement and the : lab behind my office here at the University, including the9 VMS systems. One would think that if VMS held such a high ; place int he DOD they would not be laughing but writting my & name and number down in their rolodex.  E >                                                         Any system  @ > based upon VAX since 1978 could be a candidate for Charon VAX.  C I remember a whole bunch of VAXen in the basement of a funny shaped @ building in VA.  I often wonder if many of them are still there.A Probably never get the chance to go down there again and see. :-(    > 2 > As for new work, yeah, you made that real clear.  > Don't shoot the messenger.  I guarantee you if the opportunity@ arises to propose VMS as the right solution for the job, you can@ rest assured that political correctness has never been my strong= point and BillyBoy is not going to make the top of my list of 
 solutions.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:52:00 -0600  From: Dan Notov <d9nn0@hp.com>, Subject: Re: US military and confidentiality, Message-ID: <42c1b870$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:2 > In article <11c35ilruhct7e5@corp.supernews.com>,, > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>C >>>But, as I said in another post recently I would love to see some H >>>confirmation of this.  As we all know, VMS takes a level of knowledgeE >>>somewhat beyond Windows/Linux.  The military does not teach it nor C >>>openly solicit people with VMS skills.  That being the case, how @ >>>widespread can it really be beyond a few legacy applications? >>G >>The issus here is that you casually dismiss any such usage as "a few   >>legacy applications".    >  > D > I don't mean toi dismiss them at all. As a matter of fact, I wouldC > very much like to know of places where my talents could be better D > put to use.  And like it or not, while I may not be of the caliberE > of some of you, I do have several years of VMS experience to offer.   G For a number of years, Lockheed Martin was crying for VMS savvy people  ) to support a number of military programs. 9 >>                      The number could be quite large.   >  > ; > Could be, but the larger it was the harder it would be to : > hide it and up til now they have been doing a prety good8 > job of hiding it from me.  I've sat at dinner with the= > two top Warrant Officers in the Signal Corps while snickers = > were exchanged about the stuff I run in my basement and the < > lab behind my office here at the University, including the; > VMS systems. One would think that if VMS held such a high = > place int he DOD they would not be laughing but writting my ( > name and number down in their rolodex. >  > E >>                                                        Any system  @ >>based upon VAX since 1978 could be a candidate for Charon VAX. >  > E > I remember a whole bunch of VAXen in the basement of a funny shaped B > building in VA.  I often wonder if many of them are still there.C > Probably never get the chance to go down there again and see. :-(  >  > 2 >>As for new work, yeah, you made that real clear. >  > @ > Don't shoot the messenger.  I guarantee you if the opportunityB > arises to propose VMS as the right solution for the job, you canB > rest assured that political correctness has never been my strong? > point and BillyBoy is not going to make the top of my list of  > solutions. >    > bill >   H Most of the VAX systems are embedded & running lights-out. If something 3 goes wrong, read the manual & fix it or replace it.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:44:55 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> , Subject: Re: US military and confidentiality4 Message-ID: <42c1c5e3$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:   <snip> > ; > Could be, but the larger it was the harder it would be to : > hide it and up til now they have been doing a prety good8 > job of hiding it from me.  I've sat at dinner with the= > two top Warrant Officers in the Signal Corps while snickers = > were exchanged about the stuff I run in my basement and the < > lab behind my office here at the University, including the; > VMS systems. One would think that if VMS held such a high = > place int he DOD they would not be laughing but writting my ( > name and number down in their rolodex.    K Whether it's gov't, military, commercial, or otherwise, most people at most J places hold the same attitudes - even many of the people who formerly used VMS extensively.    H The kid who is given a case of lemons usually makes lemonade with it andD sets up a stand in a high-traffic area, puts up a sign, calls out toL passers-by asking if they want to buy some tasty lemonade and sells it.  NotJ that VMS is a lemon by any means, but HP found a case of lemons in VMS but they do nothing to sell it.    --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------   Date: 29 Jun 2005 00:11:13 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), Subject: Re: US military and confidentiality+ Message-ID: <3ie791Fl2ermU1@individual.net>   , In article <42c1b870$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>,! 	Dan Notov <d9nn0@hp.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:3 >> In article <11c35ilruhct7e5@corp.supernews.com>, - >> 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>   >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>>  >>> D >>>>But, as I said in another post recently I would love to see someI >>>>confirmation of this.  As we all know, VMS takes a level of knowledge F >>>>somewhat beyond Windows/Linux.  The military does not teach it norD >>>>openly solicit people with VMS skills.  That being the case, howA >>>>widespread can it really be beyond a few legacy applications?  >>> H >>>The issus here is that you casually dismiss any such usage as "a few  >>>legacy applications".   >>   >>  E >> I don't mean toi dismiss them at all. As a matter of fact, I would D >> very much like to know of places where my talents could be betterE >> put to use.  And like it or not, while I may not be of the caliber F >> of some of you, I do have several years of VMS experience to offer. > I > For a number of years, Lockheed Martin was crying for VMS savvy people  + > to support a number of military programs.   A A search right now for either VMS or OpenVMS returns nothing. :-(    bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:34:38 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> , Subject: Re: US military and confidentiality( Message-ID: <opss3vv0aazgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On 29 Jun 2005 00:11:13 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  ? > A search right now for either VMS or OpenVMS returns nothing.    Did that include Ft Meade?   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 23:08:21 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) , Subject: Re: US military and confidentiality3 Message-ID: <LRNCPbUZ2GnG@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3ie791Fl2ermU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:. > In article <42c1b870$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>,# > 	Dan Notov <d9nn0@hp.com> writes:   J >> For a number of years, Lockheed Martin was crying for VMS savvy people , >> to support a number of military programs. > C > A search right now for either VMS or OpenVMS returns nothing. :-(   I Looking at Dice.com for postings with both the words "lockheed" and "VMS" H today returns 18 hits.  Four of those are explicitly at Air Force bases,G and two are in England.  I would guess all those are military programs.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:26:20 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Vax emulator + Message-ID: <42C206CC.E192AB70@comcast.net>    Caligula wrote:  > Q > Are there any vax emulators for linux suitable for someone who wants to revisit  > VMS ?  > > > I am aware of Charon, however it appears to be windows only.  G Charon-VAX is available for OpenVMS and, I believe, some UN*X variants.   ) See http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/   0 ...or contact Stan Quayle: http://www.stanq.com/   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 02:49:27 +0000 (UTC) % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org>  Subject: Re: Vax emulator 6 Message-ID: <slrndc4322.sa6.usenet@gaia.roc2.gblx.net>  _ In article <42C206CC.E192AB70@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:  > Caligula wrote:  >>  R >> Are there any vax emulators for linux suitable for someone who wants to revisit >> VMS ? >>  ? >> I am aware of Charon, however it appears to be windows only.  > I > Charon-VAX is available for OpenVMS and, I believe, some UN*X variants.  > + > See http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/  > 2 > ...or contact Stan Quayle: http://www.stanq.com/  . There's also SIMH which does a great job, too.   http://simh.trailing-edge.com   : And a step-by-step HOWTO on how to install VMS under SIMH:  : http://www.wherry.com/gadgets/retrocomputing/vax-simh.html   -Dan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:27:49 -0400 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com> Subject: Re: Vax emulator / Message-ID: <42C1DCF5.21028.10EF5C68@localhost>   0 On 28 Jun 2005 at 21:26, David J Dachtera wrote: > Caligula wrote: @ > > I am aware of Charon, however it appears to be windows only. > ? > Charon-VAX is available for OpenVMS and, I believe, some UN*X  > variants.  > 2 > ...or contact Stan Quayle: http://www.stanq.com/  E [Thanks for the mention.]  At the moment, CHARON-VAX is available on  7 Windows, Alpha/VMS, and as an embedded custom solution.   E However, there are installations (including some government/military  E ones of mine) that insist that there be a Linux version.  So, SRI is  D working on a Linux version.  No date on when that will be available.  A Contact me directly.  There will be a field test before official  + release -- and I can get you on the list...   
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363 3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com) "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 12:47:37 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download3 Message-ID: <busVBX7oVu9p@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <d9rh6i$93q$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:H > In article <x7idnaKOBpB8k13fRVn-ow@rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:8 >> In article <d9p2co$ett$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,/ >>    m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote: 8 >> >In article <CO7jVbSDcNX0@eisner.encompasserve.org>, @ >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>  9 >> ARe you stating that you want government controls over ; >> sales/distributions and redistributions of software that  >> isn't shrinkwrapped?  >  > What makes you think so ? 6 > All I want is to have full control over goods I buy,7 > be it a car or a piece of software on CD or whatever.   G That is fine.   Just make sure you do not submit to other arrangements. F It is not possible to buy VMS on CDROM, it is only possible to license) it.  So good luck with your Linux future.    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 18:09:52 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <3idi3fFkqrlpU1@individual.net>   5 In article <d9rti8$d8n$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, + 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: X > In article <3id40uFkuqr6U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >  / >> > maybe the US is located on another planet, 7 >> > but where I live I go into shop and can buy a car, 8 >> > either new or used, with no restrictions on its use" >> > and full rights to resell it. >>  G >> Really?  Over here you have to get the governments permission in the F >> form of a drivers license and a vehicle registration before you canG >> even drive it off the lot.  The latter requires that you do business : >> with another business in the form of getting insurance. > 1 > yes, but these are restrictions imposed by law, 7 > and not by the car maker. I give money, he gives car.   B Well, I have always thought the car vs. software was a bad analogy. as one is physical and the other non-tangible.  C But let's stick with it for just a moment longer.  Can I assume the C Car Lease disease hasn't hit German like a brick yet?  It's all the B rage over here and much more to the point.  Now, you don't make a @ "down payment", but you pay an "upfront fee".  You still make a D monthly payment.  At the end of the lease you have to return the car? to the dealership because you don't own it. You have settlement @ costs which can vary depending on if you drove the car more thanB the lease allowed. (How's that for a restriction!!)  Basicly, this@ is more akin to acquiring (note, I didn't say buying) software.    >  >> >  ; >> > Not quite. I don't know the US situation but over here 1 >> > we have the concept of "immoral contracts".   >>  G >> We have the concept of illegal contracts as well, but you would have # onoly thing you "buy" is the media  F >> a real hard time convincing a court that the VMS license is somehowF >> an illegal contract.  Especially when you consider that there is noJ >> reason why you had to enter into the contract in the first place unless >> you wanted to.  >>  4 >> > Don't know if I could translate that correctly, >>  - >> Es ist mir egal. Ich spreche auch Deutsch.  > E > But not all potential listeners. The german term is "sittenwidrig".    Yeah, I understand that.  B > Back to the topic. It's not about the VMS license in particular,A > it's about rights the producers still claims after the customer  > has given his money,  @ Yeah, but in the case of software, rights is a good term to use.A In most cases (and VMS in particular) you don't buy the software, ? you pay for the right to use it. And that use is bound by terms C agreed to by both parties prior to paying the fee.  You not reading C the agreement does not constitute a breech on HP's part and you are  still bound by it.   > O >> > but an (admittedly exaggerated) example would be to hire a contract killer G >> > for some job and not paying him for his work. The contract is void N >> > from the very beginning, so he has zero chance to get his money, legally.U >> > (Of course being a professional, he will find ways to get his money, though :-)   >>  D >> Surely your not equating VMS Licensing with hiring a hitman!! :-) >   > as said, exaggerated example. , > But at least it generated some smileys :-) >   J >> > Or another, less exaggerated example: Surrogacy (? if some woman paysD >> > some other woman to be pregnant instead of herself) is probablyC >> > allowed in the US, strictly forbidden over here. The contract, ' >> > no matter if both agreed, is void.  >>  F >> But, like I said, you would have a hard time proving anything wrongG >> with the contract nature of the VMS License or pretty much any soft- H >> ware license, unless you know one that requires giving up your first-$ >> born male shild for the software. > ? > I brought this up as an example that contracts are not always ? > at will of its parties. Some contracts could be void from the  > beginning by law.   C Yes, but you can rest assured that way too many lawyers have looked A at HP's license for any court to agree with you that the contract  is adverse. :-)    >  >>  D >> Why more consumer friendly?  The consumer is neither the owner orF >> the one who put the effort into developing the product.  Why should: >> the consumer desires be held higher than the developer? > 8 > Why should it be the other way round (in your favor) ?  ? Because it is the fruits of my labor.  I produced it.  What did B the consumer do to deserve any consideration at all in the matter,  beyond coveting my work that is?    % > In the end, it's a matter of power.   A How so?  As you say, power can be used to turn things around. But C that doesn't change the morality of the issue.  The government used B to say that owning another human being was legal.  That never madeE it moral.  Same true here.  I have the right to what I produce by the E sweat of my brow..  No one else has a moral right to the fruits of my  labors.    >    >>  K >> Maybe, but doesn't change the fact that it is the labors of the producer K >> that resulted in the product in the first place.  What does the consumer F >> bring to the table beyond a desire to have someone else's property? >  > His money.  C And?  How does his money give him any inherent right to my product? D I am free to barter with him.  He offers money I offer him in returnB what I think is a fair return on his money.  If we agree a deal isC struck.  If not, he is free to seek product elsewhere and I am free > to seek other customers.  But none of this implies he has someE inherent right to what I have to offer or some right to set the price D for it.  And the customer certainly doesn't have the right to change0 the terms of the contract gratis after the fact.   >    >> >   >> >> There is nothing+ >> >> I can see that supports this premise.  >> >  . >> > Sure. Why should *your* way be the best ?2 >> > I can see nothing that supports this premise. >>  H >> I find that statement hard to believe.  How would you feel if you andH >> one other person went out to dig a hole, you did all the work and theF >> other guy got paid?  That's basicly what your asking for.  You wantD >> the producer to not be paid what he thinks is a fair wage for hisE >> labors.  If DEC were told up front that it would not be allowed to G >> profit from any software it wrote do you think VMS would even exist?  > B > Again, I never have written that I wouldn't pay a software makerC > for his work. It's just that I would not like to be restricted by  > him to use the product.  >    >>  J >> The fact that you express the idea that individuals are not entitled to >> the fruits of their labors. >  > What makes you think so ? H > I bring my hard-earned money to some software maker and he still wants0 > to teach me how I should not use his product ?  B He's not teaching you anything.  He offered you use of his product@ under certain conditions for your payment of a certain amount ofC money.  If you both agree, it's a contract.  If you want to do more D with the product than what was agreed upon then you need to pay moreD money.  But nothing gives you more rights than those imparted by theB owner.  That's the nature of commerce and contracts.  If you go toD a store for apples and they are $,10 each.  You get 2 for your $.20.A You can't turn around later and say I deserve 4 more apples.  Why A is it that people think things related to computers are different  than life in the real world?   >    >> >  % >> > Again, what makes you think so ?  >>  I >> You said so.  You claim that I do not have the right to set a price on J >> my labors.  That I should be compelled to meet your desires rather than
 >> my own. > N > No I didn't. You can set the price (in $), and I can choose if I buy or not.= > But once I buy, I want to have the right to do what I want.   C But that's not what was being offered to you.  If you want that the D price is going to be much higher.  Like I said, you can do that withC VMS. I estimate the price is probably about $9,000,000,000.00.  But D if you buy a single "right to use on one computer" license for $2000 that's all you get.    >  >> >  I >> > Oh plz, not this one ! Open Source == communism, plz, leave me alone  >> > with this stuff ! >>  E >> I didn't say that.  I am totally in favor of Open Source.  But not D >> forced Open Source.  Again, if the producer wants to put his workF >> out there for the public that's fine.  He is getting what he wantedD >> for his labors.  But no one else should have the ability to force0 >> another's labors into the Open Source world.  > 7 > It's your choice if you give away source code or not.   E Source, object, executable.  No difference.  It's my choice what I do E with my property.  No one else's.  I can let you use my property but, B again, I get to set the rules because it's still my property.  YouG don't buy software, you license it's use.  Read the agreement sometime. H If you don't agree with the requirements, don't pay your money and don't0 use it.  But it's still someone else's property.   >  >> The producer, by the D >> act of creating his work, has earned the right to determine when,0 >> where, and how it will be used.  No one else. > @ > Yes and no. Once the customer pays, he should have the rights.  @ The customer has only the rights conveyed to him by the owner ofC the property.  If it is not your property then you have no inherent F rights where that property is coincerned.  The producer conveys rights commensurate with what you pay.   2 > I really see no logic difference to other goods.  > The difference is that you are comparing it to tangibles where@ ownership changes hands with the exchange of money.  Software isD not and in very few cases has ever been like that.  You do not "buy"? the software you buy a license to use it subject to the owner's 
 restrictions.    >   A >> > The soviet union crashed for a lot of reasons, but certainly " >> > not due to IP disregard. Plz. >>  0 >> There was no "property" in the Soviet Union.  > B > Sure there was. Not property in the sense of means of production' > (that's what communism is all about). 5 > But AFAIK you could own some land for personal use.   C Maybe, if you were in the politburo.  The common man owned nothing. C All private property was taken when the murdered the czar. Only the D upper-class continued to own anything.  Ooops. there wasn't supposed to be an upper class.    >  >> There was no reward for >> excellence. > < > Sure there was. You just couldn't "make" billions of $$$$,B > (except, of course, you were higher up in the "communist" party)  @ No, actually, there wasn't.  It didn't matter if you dug all day> long or just leaned on your shovel.  At the end of the day you! got one day's rations. Sometimes.    >   : >> There was no reward for anything beyond the mediocre.   > 8 > And how come that the soviets had nuclear weapons onlyI > shortly after the US, despite the industrial part of their country was  ) > mostly destroyed by the german armies ?   K Same reason they had the Z80 and the VAX.  We were naive and they stole it.   B > (not that I think that this is something one should be proud of) > Shall I say Sputnik ?   F Sputnik was simple technology.  And, they were willing to take greater risks than we were.    >  >> TheI >> result, after a few generations, was no innovation, no work beyond the  >> bare minimum required   > 1 > The russian (or other eastern bloc) scientists  ) > I met in the late 80s to early 90s were @ > quite knowledgeable people. They just didn't have the material# > resources as the western people.    C This is wandering too much into politics and has nothing to do with B the original problem.  They held lots of people captive, includingC some very inteligent people.  Not something they should brag about.   3 >> and the eventual colapse as they could no longer I >> compete with a world that was striving for excellence.  The result was  >> inevitable. > C > It's an example that an inept stalinist party can't run a country L > with five year plans dictating everything in detail down to the production > of shoelaces. Little else.  @ It was evidence that their whole economic model was flawed.  TheA most successful countries in the world (yours and mine at the top 1 of the list) are ones where capitalism thrives.      bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:08:02 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download0 Message-ID: <11c34bh95kf0gc7@corp.supernews.com>   WhoDat? wrote: > Michael Kraemer wrote: > H >>In article <o4qdnTqf3s1nylzfRVn-hg@rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>? >>>>I don't see any *good* reason why it shouldn't be this way.  >>> ? >>>For the simple reason that you arenn't buying this software.  >>> > >>>>>You really, really, really, REALLY don't know what you're= >>>>>talking about.  Now you have a million lawyers invovled.  >>>>? >>>>Why ? If the law is crystal-clear consumer-friendly instead = >>>>of producer-friendly there's no need to involve a lawyer.  >>> ) >>>This has nothing do with friendliness.  >>< >>Sure it has. A consumer-friendly law could state that once= >>you pay money for the CD containing the binary plus (maybe) A >>some activation key it's complete yours and you can do whatever F >>you want (including reselling) and the producer has no say any more.@ >>IP rights of the producer are guaranteed by forbidding copying >>and re-engineering etc. J >>It's a "simple" act of law, not the religious issue you want to make it.T >>I agree with you that this is relatively unlikely to happen, at least for the nextI >>few years, but not because the IP propagandists have god on their side, 0 >>but simply the (currently) stronger lobbyists. >>N >>And I still can't see how that would affect the financials of the producers.C >>Do car makers go bankrupt because there are used cars out there ?  >> >> >>>You are not buying = >>>this software.  You do not own it.  It is copyrighted.  Do 1 >>>you see your name in that copyright statement?  >  >  > + > Jeesh. Here's a quote from copyright.com:  >  > ## > The First Sale Doctrine  > G > The physical ownership of an item, such as a book or a CD, is not the A > same as owning the copyright to the work embodied in that item.  > C > Under the first sale doctrine (section 109 of the Copyright Act), D > ownership of a physical copy of a copyright-protected work permitsI > lending, reselling, disposing, etc. of the item, but it does not permit / > reproducing the material, publicly displaying   A Ha!  Key point!  Putting something on the internet for unlimited  A downloading, be it a book, or software, would be, in my opinion,   "publicly displaying".   > or performing it, orB > otherwise engaging in any of the acts reserved for the copyrightD > holder, because the transfer of the physical copy does not include/ > transfer of the copyright rights to the work.  > ## > I > That's for the U.S.A. but quite a few other country's laws are similar. E > Read the act and you'll find that the First Sale Doctrine applys to I > sofwtare as well. If the OP wants, he can go to a country whose laws do H > not comply with this and do whatever he wants with the stuff. However,4 > y'all are just burning electrons with this thread. >      --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 13:06:20 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadC Message-ID: <1119989180.906485.134270@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    HP Now nows    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:31:27 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download, Message-ID: <42C1B394.881579B0@teksavvy.com>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote: > 
 > HP Now nows   6 Susan, do you mean "HP corporate", or VMS management ?  - Can you qualify HP's reaction to this issue ?   F Ideally, this should be shaped/guided to allow the hobbysist programmeA to distribute the media to hobbysist with appropriate controls to E eliminate any fears/concerns HP may have. This has supposedly been in C the works for many years without significant progress. Perhaps this F would be the catalyst to get things moving (especially with you now at$ the helm of the hobbyist programme).   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 17:48:39 +0200* From: Thomas Jahns <Thomas.Jahns@epost.de>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download1 Message-ID: <87ll4umqi0.fsf@tjahns.news.arcor.de>   * m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: > Well, in principle yes. 1 > Most (if not all) other vendors do it this way, G > and I haven't heard that you pay through your nose to get the base OS $ > of AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, IRIX, etc.  E For IRIX one sure does, although it comes disguised as hardware cost.    Thomas Jahns --  . "Computers are good at following instructions,  but not at reading your mind." ? D. E. Knuth, The TeXbook, Addison-Wesley 1984, 1986, 1996, p. 9    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 2005 21:31:47 GMT$ From: "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download7 Message-ID: <Xns9683EFA161D6Cdcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   7 %NEWS-I-NEWMSG,  wrote in news:1119989180.906485.134270  @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com   
 > HP Now nows   - I assume that's meant to read "HP now knows".   J Please point them to the heated and impassioned discussion here that puts - the original poster's actions in perspective.      Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jun 05 19:32:21 EDT) From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download! Message-ID: <OnhtCM1f3JW0@wvnvms>   V In article <3ide6rFl2uq6U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:D > In article <1119973041.293062.73750@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,) > 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  >>   >>   >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: G >>> In article <1119911179.790552.101040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, + >>> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  >>> >  >>> >  >>> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:I >>> >> In article <1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, . >>> >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: M >>> >> >> In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, 1 >>> >> >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  >>> >> >> > O >>> >> >> > Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down? 	 >>> >> >> 0 >>> >> >> Because we have a warped court system. >>> >> >I >>> >> > I beg to differ in this case! GCT is a magnificent building that N >>> >> > deserves to be protected. Not as good as Penn Station was, but still, >>> >> > pretty good.  >>> >>M >>> >> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I have no artistic sense at all K >>> >> and see most things that others consider "great art" as just so much K >>> >> junk. (Like the recent fiasco in Central Park)  That being the case, J >>> >> I see no reason to limit ownership rights because of someone else'sM >>> >> artistic sense.  If you think it should be preserved, buy it yourself. O >>> >> At what ever price the owner asks.  If you think it is worth it you will N >>> >> raise the money but if not, what right do you have to tell me I have toG >>> >> incur the monetary loss in order to please your aesthetic sense?  >>> > F >>> > Well, I don't know the details of the GCT. Maybe the owners wereJ >>> > compensated. I don't know. But I'm glad it's still there. We're justF >>> > going to differ on this one. Also, the train station has a greatM >>> > economic value for getting commuters to and from NYC. So, it's not just M >>> > artisitic in value. Also, many, many advertisements contain pictures or F >>> > footage using GCT as a backdrop, giving more benefits. It's alsoK >>> > valuable as a tourist atraction, bringing yet more money to the city.   >>> > It's more than just "art". >>> G >>> None of which is relevant to the owner.  If someone wants it put to K >>> a diferent purpose than the owner then they should buy it at the owners K >>> asking price (or whatever price the two parties can negotiate) and then L >>> whne they own it, do what they want with it.  Recent history (especiallyL >>> as covered by a number of recent news programs) would seem to imply thatI >>> he was not likely to be compensated.  Governments are running rampant 0 >>> with the "right of emminent domain" of late. >>  F >> I agree with you about the recent abuse emminent domain. I am upsetG >> with the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision re New London, Ct. But I H >> still think the right decision was made for GCT. If someone owned theG >> pyramids, and wanted to destroy them to open a car dealership, would  >> that be okay with you?  >  > Yes. > C > Let the preservationists buy them, at the owners asking price, if E > they want something other than the owners will to be reality.  Once @ > they are the owners then they are free to do with the pyramids > whatever they wish.   E The concept of "absolute" individual property rights is absurd in the D extreme.  It entirely ignores the fact that more than one individualB exists (i.e., you can only have absolute property rights if no one@ else exists).  In the case of the pyramids, what would happen toE the "absolute" property rights of the owners of all the tourist traps ? around the pyramids if the pyramids were torn down and the land D converted into a trash dump?  Their property rights would be totallyD destroyed in that their property would be made next to worthless andF their incomes, their hard work, success, "fruits of their labor", etc. would all be taken alway.   E If the tourist trap owners had "absolute" individual property rights, E then they would have "TOTAL" control over the pyramids except for the C actual ownership (actually they could also control ownership (i.e., D force a sale) if the pyramids were owned by someone whose reputationE (e.g. Saddam) might reduce their tourist value)).  The only remaining B right the pyramid owner would have would be the right to sell them. (but only to someone with a good reputation).   M >>> > In one sense it's just a zoning decision, but admittedly a very focused 
 >>> > one. >>> J >>> And one that takes from one person for the gain of another.  PunishingH >>> one man for his accomplishments while rewarding another for nothing.  H Any zoning decision takes and gives (sometimes in very unequal amounts).E Fifteen years ago my neighborhood was rezoned to keep slum lords from F converting single family homes to apartments.  The slum lords lost bigD while most of the remaining home owners eventualy came out way aheadE although some (the ones who wanted to sale to the slum lords) lost in A the short term.  I supported the rezoning because it protected my C property rights by protecting the value of my property.  My home is @ now worth well over twice what it was and two of the four housesC bordering mine are single family.  If not for the rezoning, I would E be complelely surrounded by multi-student (we are a university town)  C apartments and my house would have a fraction of its current value, @ and the area would most likely have lost its national historical district status.  H In our town's warehouse district (another national historical district),@ someone recently purchased one of the few remaining cold storageA warehouses of its type in the country.  He wants to tear it down, C but if he does, the area will lose its national historical district A status.  If the national historical district is lost, then owners > of other buildings in the area who have used large tax credits> (multi-year credits reaching into the future) to restore their@ buildings will lose those credits.  Whose property rights shouldB prevail?  Who would you punish?  Who would you reward?  Should theA owners of the restored buildings have the "fruits of their labor" 1 taken away by a newcomer out to make a fast buck?   E Recently in our downtown national historical district, the University C was going to tear down an old masonic lodge to create a few parking @ spaces.  Doing so would have damaged the character of the entireF historical district (in that the building sits at the head of the mainC street).  Fortunately wiser heads prevailed, or the properly values H (aka property rights) of many other properties would have been affected.  F As far as GCT and Penn Station, it is generally now considered to haveD been a mistake tearing Penn Station down.  Many still mourn it.  NotB long ago an archaeological survey of its remains took place at itsD dumping grounds.  It's unfortunate when our nation's history must beA studied from that perspective.  One of the main problems faced by B preservationists is that governments and private owners often onlyD look at the value of their property in the extremely short term.  ItC was only a few years after Penn Station came down, that NY realized % far too late the mistake it had made.   D FWIW, I also think the liberals (they were the majority) on the U.S.D Supreme Court are wrong in the New London, CT case.  Telling someoneA they can't tear a building down is one thing, but tearing it down @ against their will in order to give the land to someone else for! personal profit is quite another.      George Cook  WVNET    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:19:07 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download+ Message-ID: <42C1F70B.FC3202BE@comcast.net>   
 "Doc." wrote:  > 9 > %NEWS-I-NEWMSG,  wrote in news:1119989180.906485.134270  > @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com  >  > > HP Now nows  > / > I assume that's meant to read "HP now knows".  > K > Please point them to the heated and impassioned discussion here that puts / > the original poster's actions in perspective.   E Judging by the responses to Sue's survey, I'm sure it will all become ) quite apparent when she makes her report.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 19:27:33 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadC Message-ID: <1120012053.058823.204300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:E > In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, * >    "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote: > >  > >  > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: H > >> In article <1119880450.608451.259120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,- > >>    "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote:  > >> > > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:? > >> >> In article <Xns967FE7AC9ACC1dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>, 0 > >> >>    "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:1 > >> >> >%NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Bill Gunshannon wrote in + > >> >> >news:3i37lcFj8admU1@individual.net 	 > >> >> > B > >> >> >> In article <Xns967FDFA4867B3dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>,6 > >> >> >>      "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> writes:	 > >> >> > M > >> >> >>> Push comes to shove if HP decides to take OpenVMS off the market,  > atL > >> >> >>> the moment that doesn't seem likely.  If it happens, I'll review > myJ > >> >> >>> position on the distribution of material which others hold the > >> >> >>> copyright on. 
 > >> >> >>J > >> >> >> Why?  How does their taking it off the market in any way affectJ > >> >> >> their ownership of it?  It is their property to do with as theyJ > >> >> >> wish.  If they wish to see it end, then so be it.  It would notJ > >> >> >> be the first OS to suffer such a fate and probably won't be the > >> >> >> last. > >> >J > >> >This may well be the legal reality for this case. However, owners doM > >> >not have the complete right to do whatever they want with what they own I > >> >in all cases: Landmark preservation. Developers wanted to tear down I > >> >Grand Central Terminal. Thanks to the work of preservations, it was J > >> >saved. The owners had no choice in the matter. Zoning laws similarly0 > >> >affect what you can do with your own land. > >> >L > >> >While the case of OSes may well be as you say, I don't think we shouldJ > >> >just accept it as "right". There ARE exceptions as I mentioned aboveK > >> >and in a previous post in this thread. And I strongly feel that there  > >> >*should* be exceptions.  > >>B > >> But there aren't exceptions.  This is the computing biz life. > >  > > E > >That may be true, and I even admitted so. But exceptions exist for J > >other things, so it is not inconceivable that exceptions may one day be > >made for the computing biz. > A > It isn't not your right to create these exceptions for products ? > that are owned by somebody else.  You tread on very dangerous ; > grounds of anarchy here.  Would you like somebody to have = > the same idea about your personal property when they decide : > they want to start making the exception that it is OK to= > take possession of your car just because they felt like it?   E My right according to what? I never said govt can just take property. E Just where did I say that? I did misspeak about asking for a law that C would prevent HP from dropping VMS as a product and I apologize for D misspeaking. I can hardly believe it myself. I'm just saying is that: ownership rights do not have infinite value. NOTHING DOES.     >  > >  > > L > >> >> >Bill, you're right.  And I'm not thinking straight.  I'm letting myL > >> >> >desire to see VMS live on conflict with the reality of who owns it. > >> > > >> >? > >> >I think destroying knowledge like this should be a crime.  > >>= > >> No.  Doing it on purpose, maybe.  What you don't seem to = > >> understand is that this kind of knowledge has be babysat = > >> constantly.  No company will, nor should they, pay money = > >> to babysit old stuff when there is no advantage to their  > >> businesses to do so.  > > G > >I think there are plenty of VMS enthusiasts who would welcome taking % > >over the care and nuturing of VMS.  > = > Yes, and it's called the hobbyists' program.  The OP wanted  > to destroy that.   That would be bad.   >  > >  > >> > ..It isn't,L > >> >legally, but I think it should be. No one lives in a vacuum. On top ofL > >> >their owning the OS, they have sold it and supported it for many, manyH > >> >people. I think implies some reasonable obligations to the buyers! > >>F > >> We are breeding these people.  This is not how life works.  ThereD > >> is no obligation out of the goodness of corporate hearts.  Your4 > >> paycheck depends on this aspect of our economy. > >  > > * > >We are breeding these people? Say what? > 9 > People who think that anybody's work should be free for ) > use whenever the spoiled brats want it.     D OK. I didn't gather any meaning from the statement. I was asking forF clarification. Just to be clear, I don't think anyone's work should be	 for free.    > > H > >There is too obligation. If a corporation sells you something that isF > >defective, or worse, dangerous, you can sue them in court. I'm justH > >saying that at some level it seems unfair to pull the carpet out fromJ > >under those who use VMS. I'm not saying that it 100% supreme, but it is > >not 0% either!  > ' > You need to learn how commerce works.   C Commerce wouldn't work to well without Govt. And the same govt puts E restrictions on ownership like expiration of patents, copyrights, and % trademarks. that is part of commerce.    > >  > >  > >> > >> >L > >> >It may be legally okay for them to destroy VMS, but I strongly feel it > >> >should be otherwise. > >>L > >> We are not talking about an active action to destroy a set of software.D > >> This software will disappear if it's not tended by knowledgableF > >> human beings.  If there is no active development going on, nobody: > >> will get paid to babysit old crufty bit arrangements. > >  > > 
 > >See above.  > 9 > No.  You are wrong.  You are talking to someone who has 9 > seen this happen with other bit arrangements.  You have $ > no idea what you're talking about. > >  > > L > >> >What I'm trying to say is that ownership should not, and is often not, > >> >the be all and end all.  > >>A > >> Yes, it is.  Otherwise you have anarchy where sole result is B > >> to destroy anything and everything that was built and useful. > >  > > F > >Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down?J > >Then why are companies sued for defective products? Why does Exxon haveI > >to "use" its Esso trademark to protect it? Why can't GM make sell cars E > >that don't have pollution controls? Why can't a developer build an J > >office building ON HIS OWN LAND when it is zoned as a residential area?6 > >Copyright laws are another example. Patents expire. > > I > >There are tons of laws about restrictions on ownership. There are even 1 > >some things you are not allowed to own at all!  > = > If you want to change the laws, then do so with established = > procedures.  But you don't have the gumption nor the brains A > to do that.  You want to be a 2-year old and just take whatever @ > you want with no consideration to the owner.  Yet, if somebody= > did a similar action against you, you scream and expect the  > maximum penalties.  F I have no problem with having to change laws. I resent your 2-year oldD comment and I think it is misplaced. It is those who say "It's mine.E You can't have it. For anything. for any reason whatsoever. Mine mine F mine! I'm going to destroy it and that's too bad for you." that's you.$ Those are the words of a 2-year old.  C And if you continue posting insults and putting words in my mouth I C will drop you into my kill file faster than you can type Bill Todd.   E If you want to engage in civil discussion, fine. But I will not waste  my time trading insults.   You're a jerk.# Oh yeah? well you're a bigger jert.  Am not.  Am too.    Oh, please.    >  > /BAH > ) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 19:33:59 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadC Message-ID: <1120012439.663678.236660@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:E > In article <1119911179.790552.101040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, ) > 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  > >  > >  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:G > >> In article <1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, , > >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > >> > > >> > > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: K > >> >> In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, / > >> >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: 	 > >> >> > M > >> >> > Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down?  > >> >> . > >> >> Because we have a warped court system. > >> >G > >> > I beg to differ in this case! GCT is a magnificent building that L > >> > deserves to be protected. Not as good as Penn Station was, but still, > >> > pretty good.  > >>K > >> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I have no artistic sense at all I > >> and see most things that others consider "great art" as just so much I > >> junk. (Like the recent fiasco in Central Park)  That being the case, H > >> I see no reason to limit ownership rights because of someone else'sK > >> artistic sense.  If you think it should be preserved, buy it yourself. M > >> At what ever price the owner asks.  If you think it is worth it you will L > >> raise the money but if not, what right do you have to tell me I have toE > >> incur the monetary loss in order to please your aesthetic sense?  > > D > > Well, I don't know the details of the GCT. Maybe the owners wereH > > compensated. I don't know. But I'm glad it's still there. We're justD > > going to differ on this one. Also, the train station has a greatK > > economic value for getting commuters to and from NYC. So, it's not just K > > artisitic in value. Also, many, many advertisements contain pictures or D > > footage using GCT as a backdrop, giving more benefits. It's alsoI > > valuable as a tourist atraction, bringing yet more money to the city.  > > It's more than just "art". > E > None of which is relevant to the owner.  If someone wants it put to I > a diferent purpose than the owner then they should buy it at the owners I > asking price (or whatever price the two parties can negotiate) and then J > whne they own it, do what they want with it.  Recent history (especiallyJ > as covered by a number of recent news programs) would seem to imply thatG > he was not likely to be compensated.  Governments are running rampant . > with the "right of emminent domain" of late.    I'm all for proper compensation.   >  > > K > > In one sense it's just a zoning decision, but admittedly a very focused  > > one. > H > And one that takes from one person for the gain of another.  PunishingF > one man for his accomplishments while rewarding another for nothing.  E Destroying a public landmark is an accomplishment? If you build a GCT E in your own place, away from the public, and do not admit the public, D fine. Destroy it later if you like. But GCT was much more than that.  < Face it, we're going to disagree on this one no matter what.   [...]  > >>M > >> Again, I ask why?  If Steven King wanted to take the original manuscript I > >> for "It" or "Carrie" or any other of his many successes (mind you, I K > >> only ever liked one of his stories and tend not to bother reading most L > >> of what he writes) and burn it in his fireplace so that no one ever sawK > >> it, is that not his right?  What will become of VMS at the end of it's  > >  > > H > > I have no problem with that. No essential information is lost. But IE > > don't think he should be allowed to burn all copies of his books.  > H > Why?  It's his book.  No one has any rights to his IP unless he grants > them.   F I said he shouldn't be able to burn all copies of his books. Suppose IE have a copy of his book which I legally purchased. You're saying that < Stephen King has the right to burn my copy of his book? Huh?   [...]    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 20:30:59 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadC Message-ID: <1120015859.807368.126230@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > In article <1119973041.293062.73750@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,) > 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  > >  > >  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:H > >> In article <1119911179.790552.101040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,, > >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > >> > > >> > > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: J > >> >> In article <1119895919.982108.17200@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,/ > >> >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: 	 > >> >> > 	 > >> >> >   > >> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:N > >> >> >> In article <1119887254.046020.321350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,2 > >> >> >> 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > >> >> >> >P > >> >> >> > Then why couldn't the owner of Grand Central Terminal tear it down?
 > >> >> >>1 > >> >> >> Because we have a warped court system. 	 > >> >> > J > >> >> > I beg to differ in this case! GCT is a magnificent building thatO > >> >> > deserves to be protected. Not as good as Penn Station was, but still,  > >> >> > pretty good. > >> >> N > >> >> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I have no artistic sense at allL > >> >> and see most things that others consider "great art" as just so muchL > >> >> junk. (Like the recent fiasco in Central Park)  That being the case,K > >> >> I see no reason to limit ownership rights because of someone else's N > >> >> artistic sense.  If you think it should be preserved, buy it yourself.P > >> >> At what ever price the owner asks.  If you think it is worth it you willO > >> >> raise the money but if not, what right do you have to tell me I have to H > >> >> incur the monetary loss in order to please your aesthetic sense? > >> >G > >> > Well, I don't know the details of the GCT. Maybe the owners were K > >> > compensated. I don't know. But I'm glad it's still there. We're just G > >> > going to differ on this one. Also, the train station has a great N > >> > economic value for getting commuters to and from NYC. So, it's not justN > >> > artisitic in value. Also, many, many advertisements contain pictures orG > >> > footage using GCT as a backdrop, giving more benefits. It's also L > >> > valuable as a tourist atraction, bringing yet more money to the city.! > >> > It's more than just "art".  > >>H > >> None of which is relevant to the owner.  If someone wants it put toL > >> a diferent purpose than the owner then they should buy it at the ownersL > >> asking price (or whatever price the two parties can negotiate) and thenM > >> whne they own it, do what they want with it.  Recent history (especially M > >> as covered by a number of recent news programs) would seem to imply that J > >> he was not likely to be compensated.  Governments are running rampant1 > >> with the "right of emminent domain" of late.  > > G > > I agree with you about the recent abuse emminent domain. I am upset H > > with the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision re New London, Ct. But II > > still think the right decision was made for GCT. If someone owned the H > > pyramids, and wanted to destroy them to open a car dealership, would > > that be okay with you? >  > Yes. > C > Let the preservationists buy them, at the owners asking price, if E > they want something other than the owners will to be reality.  Once @ > they are the owners then they are free to do with the pyramids > whatever they wish.  >  > >  > > N > >> > In one sense it's just a zoning decision, but admittedly a very focused > >> > one.  > >>K > >> And one that takes from one person for the gain of another.  Punishing I > >> one man for his accomplishments while rewarding another for nothing.  > >  > > B > > You seem to imply that ownership rights are infinite in value. > > > No, not necessarily infinite.  I am merely stating that I am= > the sole arbiter of the value of my property, in particular < > my IP.  But real property as well.  I own a house.  If you> > want to buy my house must I sell it to you?  Even if I don't> > want to move?  What should the asking price be?  What I want@ > for the house ot what you want to pay?  Why should software be@ > any different than anything else in the world?  Where did thisA > idea come from that there are two separate worlds at play here, 9 > the real world and the computer world (aka Cyberspace).   G There's Eminent Domain. People lose their houses for this all the time.  We've discussed this.      > G > >                                                                With C > > that I disagree. Sometimes there are other issues of comparable 6 > > importance that must be brought into the equation. > A > But the only thing people seem to be bringing into the equation B > are one man's rights over another man's desires.  No one has anyC > right to the fruits of another man's labors.  Why is that so hard   G Never worked for a company that forced you to sign an agreement turning ' over any fruits of your labors to them?   B > to comprehend?  If you want software to do what my software does  F Because the fruits of one's labors are not entirely due to the one. WeF all depend on many things. Could you build a large successful businessE in most countries? NO. The fact that you can succeed and benefit from F the fruits of your labors is that you benefit from the environment setF up and maintained by the U.S. govt. Your fruits didn't come solely outB of your brain. You had to learn a lot of stuff first. No man is anG island. And since the fruits of your labor depend on other things, need  I go on?  @ Additionally, many benfit from inheritances, which are fruits of someone else's labors.  B Isaac Newton once said something like "If I have seen further thanE others it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants". Newton = depended on the work of Galileo, Tycho Brahe, and Kepler, and E Copernicus. He was a super, supergenius, but he didn't do it entirely  on his own.   C > you have basicly three options.  Come to an agreement with me for C > the use of mine.  Find someone else who has an equivalent product F > with an agreement you find more acceptable.  Write your own product.F > But there is no legal or moral basis to say that you have some right5 > to my product on your terms as opposed to my terms.   F Moral basis? Who's morals? I can agree that morals mean not to murder,D not to hurt people, not to cheat, steal, and lie. But there are manyF grey areas that need elaboration. So we end up with govt and its legal> system, and, of course, religion, but I don't want to get intoD religion. And sometimes principles lead to undesirable consequences.D You can say on principal that illegal aliens should be deported whenC they report a crime to the police. Fine, but then word will quickly F spread around and illegal aliens will not report crimes to the police.E So suppose they could report the doings of a rapist. Now you've got a F rapist on the loose that could otherwise be caught. Or denying illegal@ alien children from school. You want uneducated kids roaming theG streets? Criminals or victims in the making. You can vote how you like,  but I'll vote for education.   > K > >                                                    But such concerns do - > > need to provide sufficient justification.  > C > What possible justification can you provide for taking the fruits B > of another man's labors rather than requiring said individual to0 > labor for himself to accomplish the same task?  F Destroying a landmark is some big successful fruits of one labors? TheF owners wanted to destroy or greatly reduce GCT and put up a big officeB building. Owners always have to get permission from the city to doG these things even in normal, non-landmark cases. So the case for GCT is E far greater. Maybe one considers the loss of GCT to be a greater evil B than the fate of its owners? Let's drop this one -- we're going in circles on this.   >  > >  > > @ > >> >> >> > Then why are companies sued for defective products?
 > >> >> >>R > >> >> >> For the same reason they are sued when some idiot does something reallyP > >> >> >> stupid with their product that it was not designed for and gets hurt.S > >> >> >> (Remember, we have the court system that awarded several million dollars : > >> >> >> for loss of psychic ability after  a CAT-scan.)	 > >> >> > 	 > >> >> > Q > >> >> > Well, there's a down side to everything. And that's either the fault of ; > >> >> > the court system and/or some particular bad laws. 	 > >> >> > 	 > >> >> > S > >> >> >> >                                                    Why does Exxon have 7 > >> >> >> > to "use" its Esso trademark to protect it? 
 > >> >> >>L > >> >> >> Because trademarks are a totally different concept with differentP > >> >> >> rules entirely.  A more important question would have been what rightM > >> >> >> did the government have to tell them they had to change their name E > >> >> >> in the US?  But that isn't generic to the discussion.  :-) 	 > >> >> > 	 > >> >> > O > >> >> > Depends what you mean by "right". Rights are decided by people. Since P > >> >> > people will in general differ on what's right, we have government. NotP > >> >> > perfect by a long shot, but certainly better than anarchy. And even ifQ > >> >> > there is some ultimate set of "God-given rights", people have no way to Q > >> >> > know exactly what these are and will differ on what they are anyway. So P > >> >> > ultimately they are decided by people and are subject to discussion as$ > >> >> > to how things "should be".	 > >> >> > G > >> >> > People who succeed in the US do so, in part, because the U.S. M > >> >> > Government, as imperfect as it is, has established and maintains an O > >> >> > environment in which businesses and individuals can succeed. For this P > >> >> > reason I find it not unreasonable that *something* is owed to the govtP > >> >> > for this. What exactly that should be I'm not here to say. But I don'tN > >> >> > believe the "I did it all on my own so I can do what I want with it"K > >> >> > story. And in a similar, but slightly different vein, some sports Q > >> >> > person once observed, "Some people are born on third base and act as if ! > >> >> > they had hit a triple." 	 > >> >> > O > >> >> > Yes, ownership means a lot. I'm just trying to say that it is not the Q > >> >> > be all and end all that you appear to be saying. If I misunderstood you O > >> >> > about this, I apologize. In this particular case it there may well be N > >> >> > no law to prevent HP from dropping VMS. But maybe there *should* be. > >> >> P > >> >> Again, I ask why?  If Steven King wanted to take the original manuscriptL > >> >> for "It" or "Carrie" or any other of his many successes (mind you, IN > >> >> only ever liked one of his stories and tend not to bother reading mostO > >> >> of what he writes) and burn it in his fireplace so that no one ever saw N > >> >> it, is that not his right?  What will become of VMS at the end of it's > >> > > >> >K > >> > I have no problem with that. No essential information is lost. But I H > >> > don't think he should be allowed to burn all copies of his books. > >>K > >> Why?  It's his book.  No one has any rights to his IP unless he grants 
 > >> them. > > K > > Hmmm. People bought their copies of the books and now you say that King F > > still owns said books?! They didn't license them; they bought them8 > > outright! Where does the IP come in? Please clarify. > D > No, I didn't.  I said "burn the original manuscript".  I am saying  C Come on, it's right up there just a few lines up. Here it is again:   K > >> > I have no problem with that. No essential information is lost. But I H > >> > don't think he should be allowed to burn all copies of his books. > >>K > >> Why?  It's his book.  No one has any rights to his IP unless he grants 
 > >> them.  E It's his book you say. Just above that I say all copies of his books. * That would include my copies if I had any.  B > he has the right to see that his IP never sees the light of day.E > Once he publishes the book and you buy it, it is yours. He can then E > burn the manuscript but the books remain.  Of course, he is free to E > buy up all copies of the book and burn them, too.  Now, suppose you D > own the last copy that hasn't been burned.  You paid $4.95 for it.B > How much is it worth?  Can he give you $4.95 and demand that youC > give him the book so he can destroy it?  Or might it not be worth > > more thant hat to you?  Who sets the price, buyer or seller?  C Uh, I think we're in complete agreement on this. You misread what I  wrote. I can't help that.    >  > > G > > Mostly, I just hate the loss of good knowledge and the loss of good  > > technology.  > B > So do I.  I also hate the fact that a Porsche 911 costs $60,000.D > But that doesn't give me the right to insist that the local dealerC > sell me one for $1,000.  To be honest, I don't think a Porsche is B > worth anywhere near that much (which is why I don't buy one) butC > I don't get to set the price, the owner does.  Why would software  > be any different?   F I never said it was legitimate for anyone to demand a copy of VMS at aD buyer-decided price. I just think there really should be some way to- prevent it from being destroyed for all time.     N > >> > all the information would be lost. Sources and images are not the same,< > >> > however. I suppose you could reverse engineer though. > >>L > >> In most cases, not legally,  But then, that's the crux of the argument.L > >> The many people who believe, for some strange reason, that their wishes+ > >> and desires out-weigh everyone else's.  > > E > > What I am saying is that ownership is not the only consideration.  >  > Matter of opinion. > K > >                                                                   It is F > > a very important one, but it does not have infinite value. Nothing	 > > does.  > G > Nobody szaid anything about infinite value.  The question is who sets F > the value?  The owner or some outsider who merely covets the owner's > property?   C You write as if ownerships rights have inifinte value. Who sets the E value? Value is dependent on context. The owner sets the asking price B and the bidder sets the bidding price. Eminent domain is something else.    > E > >        There comes, from time to time, compelling reasons to make J > > exceptions. But such exceptions need to be well justified. It seems toI > > me that you're saying such exceptions are never justified. I'm saying 0 > > that occasionally they are. We disagree. OK. > : > I would have a real problem justifying stealing from one8 > person in order to give to another in the case of real6 > property, but in the case of software I can not even& > comprehend a possible justification.  A The owners of GCT were not allowed to build as they wished on the G property. I don't know deatils beyond that. I am not aware of its being B stolen. I have repeatedly said fair compensation is due in Eminent1 Domain cases. Why do you keep implying otherwise?      > F > And no, I don't think Robin Hood was a hero.  He was merely a thief.  G Depends on how the wealth was assembled. Maybe the wealth was stolen? I F don't really know as I am not familiar with the details of Robin Hood.  D So if your policies result in a situation like Czarist Russia with aB very few, very welathy aristocrats and a starving population, that6 would be okay with you? Admittedly an extreme example.    F > [As an aside and so you may get an idea where I am coming from, thisI > is about the only thing I disagree with Thomas Aquinas on.  He believes E > that if you and/or your family are starving and you take bread from E > the bakery you are not stealing.  I believe you are still stealing, H > but the act is not culpable.  Stealing is always stealing but in some,D > very rare, circumstances it may not necissarily be wrong.  But theE > circumstances would have to be dire, which is why I don't think the / > priciple can be applied to computer software]   1 OK, I didn't say it applied to computer software.    >  > >  > > M > >> >> days is stuill unknown.  Like others, I would like to think that when L > >> >> the owner at that point (and we also have no way of knowing who thatL > >> >> may be) will just release it all to the public trust.  But they haveP > >> >> no real obligation to do so.  And, this whole discussion may be academicM > >> >> as, if most of us have our way, VMS will last for a long time to come J > >> >> and will only die when it is no longer needed or wanted by anyone. > >> > > >> > > >> >> 	 > >> >> > F > >> >> > And even in the computer biz, there are restrictions. Export- > >> >> > restrictions for national security,  > >> >> K > >> >> Another good reason not to let the government get involved any more L > >> >> than they already are.  Do you know how many VAXen running Unix wereF > >> >> found behind the Iron Curtain when it finally fell? (Both were! > >> >> restricted export items!)  > >> > > >> >F > >> > Well, someone, maybe it wasn't you, mentioned that there are no2 > >> > ownership restrictions in the computer biz. > >>H > >> Not I.  There are lot's of restrictions, most imposed by the ownersL > >> and therefore proper.  I only object to the government getting involvedM > >> especially when their actions hurt the innocent while letting the guilty  > >> do as they please.  > >  > > F > > Can't argue with that! Now we need to establish some more concrete7 > > criteria as to what constitues guilt and innocence!  > > N > >> >                                             I was just countering that.M > >> > I am not, in general, a fan of restrictions on trade unless there is a K > >> > very good reason. National security certainly ranks high for me. And J > >> > some VAX systems were running there. So? No restriction is perfect. > >>I > >> Perfect?  That's a hoot.  Basicly, the restriction limited access to L > >> some of the parts of Unix by all of our allies (England, Germany, etc.)J > >> while basicly being totally ineffective as regards the acquisition ofI > >> the technology by the Communists.  We won't even go into things like I > >> the badly flawed export law on 3D milling machines or companies that M > >> openly shipped technology to Russia and even bragged about it on USENET.  > > G > > Yes, gov't screws some things up. I have no argument with that. But G > > they should be given credit for things they do right. And that goes K > > mostly unnoticed. If that were to suddenly disappear, I'm sure everyone I > > would take notice. Sometimes you don't know what you've got until you  > > lose it! > F > We in the colonies (as they were affectionately known in those days)C > had a governemnt in 1776.  I think we have done pretty good since  > "loosing" it.   C What is it with spelling lose as loose in this newsgroup? Loosing a  govt?   A Yes, we have done pretty well by replacing it with a better govt.    >  > >  > >>N > >> >                                                                     TheK > >> > Space Shuttle blew up, twice (okay, broke up the second time)! There # > >> > still going to send up more.  > >>J > >> Yeah, well some of us think the shuttle is a bad idea wether it worksL > >> or not.  Some of us think if the government were out of the picture theH > >> private comapnies who have held licenses for space craft operationsH > >> would have been doing it for decades and the competition would have; > >> resulted in more efficient and less expensive methods.  > > @ > > I think that manned space travel is just too big for privateG > > enterprise. I seriously doubt that any business would be willing to # > > gamble with that kind of money.  > C > I think you are wrong.  I used to work for Martin Marietta.  They E > purchased one of the first licenses offered in the US for a private I > launch facility.  To the best of my knowledge they have never exercised G > that license.  It is impossible to compete with NASA which has pretty F > much unlimited depth to it's pockets and no need to show a profit toC > stay in business.  That's a tough business model to compete with.  > F > >                                 I don't believe it would have everH > > happened were it not for NASA. Though there was competition with the	 > > USSR.  > F > There was no competition.  Neither competitor had any mandate beyondD > spending other people's money.  If it had been privatized and NASA  D There was the race to be first in space. To have the first person inE space. to be the first to land something on the moon. to put a man on ( the moon. Sounds like competition to me!  E > taken out of the picture I firmly believe we would be a lot further C > along then trying to patch together the ancient Space Shuttle for B > one more risky flight.  Even without a clear chance at profit weC > have greater advancements in space flight capable vehicles coming F > from the private sector.  NASA had a place in the very early days of1 > space flight, but their time has come and gone.   B Would the private sector have built the Interstate Highway system?G Would the private sector ensure affordable mail delivery to every rural 
 residence?F I disagree. I think NASA is still needed for basic science research. ID think it's too bad we have that International Space Station. For farG less we could have had the Super Conducting Supercollider and done some 2 real science. Even Sky and Telescope said as much.   > > = > > Space travel is very difficult, dangerous, and expensive.  > H > As are most new technologies.  History has shown that a little healthyH > competition tends to decrease the last two in most cases while drivingA > the innovation necessary to attack the first one.  But if trrue 6 > competition is not possible, where is the incentive? > K > >                                                           And there are J > > very few good launch sites. FL is excellent for a launch site: 1.) YouI > > are clos to the equator where the earth's tangential rotational speed K > > is significant. This speed gives you a head start to getting into orbit D > > and results in considerable fuel savings 2.) Most spacecraft areI > > launched towards the east for this very reason. And the eastern coast 0 > > of FL offers ocean for launches that go bad. > D > And yet we launch from both coasts.  Plus, if the government isn'tE > doing it the potential is there to choose alternative sites outside J > US as well.  (Hint:  Where does ESA launch from?  Surely not Darmstadt.) >  > > @ > > You may have gotten *some* unmanned stuff going from private( > > comapanies, but manned space travel? > F > Why not?  Who created manned travel by airplane?  I don't know aboutC > ESA, but even with the lack of business because you can't compete E > with NASA the private companies are still fighting for market share G > and a chance to be the first one to offer regularly scheduled tourist 8 > flights into space.  I can't see NASA ever doing that.  % NASA has more important things to do.    > J > >                                      No way. And you'd still need some2 > > kind of governing body to keep things orderly. > G > We have had a government regulated commercial space business for more H > than 2 decades.  The only thing missing is a way to compete profitablyJ > with a company that runs on tax money and doesn't need to show a profit.  0 If you don't like it, write to your legislators.   >  > > H > > Don't businesses take great advantage of basic research sponsered by
 > > gov't? > C > I think there is much more research being done privately that the : > government is taking advantage of today than vice versa. > K > >        And taxpayers certainly should, and often do, reap some benefits  > > from satellites. > F > True, but many wonder if we might not be doing more satellite repair$ > and replacement if it was private. >  > > H > > If private business can launch more efficiently than NASA, what's to > > stop them? > F > Define "efficiently".  NASA gets it's money from the tax coffers andG > has no mandate to show stockholders a profit.  Tough model to compete G > with.  Reminds me of a business concept I remember from school called F > "a level playing field".  And even with this greatly un-even playingC > field private industry still puts quite a bit of money into space F > research.  Probably hedging their bets for the day when NASA finally2 > gets out of the way and stops blocking progress.  D Does NASA put up communications satellites for companies for free? I$ don't really know. How does it work?   > I > >            We recently had that $10,000,000 winner reach "the edge of H > > space". Impressive, but still a long cry from real space travel. AndH > > what's they're motive? To put up satellites that help busineses makeK > > money, and help people do land planning and farming, and weather, etc.? K > > No! They're motivation is to give joy rides to super rich people. Nice.  > F > But you have to ask the question why?  That is the only place that aE > private company can compete right now because NASA (and I am fairly F > certain ESA) can not or will not consider it.  How much do you thinkC > the money paid to the russians by that billionare furthered their F > program?  That's one difference between business and government.  IfH > there is money to be made, business will find it.  It here is money to! > waste, government will find it.   F There is more to life than money. Advancement in science, for one. How) much of that would private enterprise do?   N > >> >> >                                     for one. Anti-trust restrictions > >> >> > (ask BG!) for two. > >> >> I > >> >> I don't necessarily agree with most anti-trust legislation.  Most F > >> >> monopolistic practices involve breaking enough other laws thatI > >> >> special ones (especially ones without teeth) are never necessary.  > >> > > >> >L > >> > I see this as government at least trying or pretending to act for theK > >> > public good. Yes, govt does a lot of stupid and bad things. Like the M > >> > odd/even licesne plate scheme during the gas-line days (1973, 1979) to M > >> > name a minor grievance of mine. But people succeed in the U.S. in part G > >> > because govt. has done many things right. Who's going to protect J > >> > ownership? The govt.! If someone starts cranking out free copies ofJ > >> > software, who's going to stop it? You have to give govt. credit for* > >> > that. They do do some things right! > >>5 > >> Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while.  > > J > > Well, people succeed here more often and better than most, if not all,E > > other places. So they must be doing something right! I am all for 4 > > trying to eliminate stupidity and abuse by govt. > > D > > Hey, who enforces your rules of ownership? Without govt, it'd beI > > anarchy. The Wild, Wild West. You have to take the good with the bad.  > E > Yes, but we still need a government that knows what it's job is and 5 > knows equally well when to just get out of the way.    Can't argue with that!   [...] 7 > >> >> > And eliminating VMS would also affect others.  > >> >> O > >> >> Matter of opinion.  It is doubtful that more than .002055% of americans ; > >> >> would even notice it if it went away tomorrow.  :-)  > >> > > >>D > >> Gee, I thought someone would ask where I got a number with that > >> precision.    :-) > > G > > Actually, I didn't even round it off! I just said to myself "a tiny  > > minority". > L > I merely divided the rounded population of the US by the VMS Constant. :-) >  [...]  > >  > >  [...]  > >  [...]  > > M > >> >                                                        I think that is G > >> > an important concern. However, much good comes from govt (no one M > >> > notices the engine when it runs well and quitely!) and I think it is a M > >> > good thing to try to make govt better. The U.S. is an awesome economic H > >> > power, and I think govt. should get at least some credit for that- > >> > (certainly not all credit, of course!)  > >>K > >> Actually, in too many cases our economic success is in spite of rather J > >> than because of government intervention.  Most other governments haveK > >> their hands even deeper in business's pockets and the results are very  > >> apparent. > > K > > Yes, but overall you have to give credit to gov't for keeping order and 6 > > for protecting (via enforcement) ownership rights! > > K > >> > Relax, man. This is just a discussion and we are "honorable debating 0 > >> > opponents". I respect your point of view. > >>L > >> Oh, I'm relaxed.  I enjoy a good debate.  And I also respect everyone'sM > >> right to have their own opinion.  That is, of course, one of the reasons J > >> why I am still in the Army at the point in life where most people areK > >> retired.  But I will admit that sometimes I read things here that make ' > >> me just shake my head and chuckle.  > >  > > J > > Well, I take the blame for misspeaking before about HP's right to dropK > > VMS as a product. I just think it would be terrible if it were banished ? > > from the earth and that that should at least be considered.  > D > I think so too.  I wish there were some way to walk that fine lineF > between the owner's rights and society's needs.  But, again, I don'tI > think more government involvement is the answer.  Some kind of a public F > trust seems the better way to go.  Maybe get a bunch of right mindedH > people together to come up with an agreement to escrow things like VMSG > with the understanding (and agreement by all parties coincerned) that J > should the company reach the point where the product is no longer viableD > it would revert to the public domain.  Wishful thinking, I'm sure.   Sounds good to me.   >  > > H > > I apologize for misspeaking and didn't mean to get you too riled up. > F > I stopped getting riled up a long time ago.  I'm an academic now and > I love a good debate.  :-)    E OK. But Whew, these posts are getting LONG! (I did some major snips.)      > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 13:27:24 -0700, From: contracer11@gmail.com (Shiva MahaDeva) Subject: VAX/VMS Mail agent = Message-ID: <e83e5d60.0506281227.34456a7e@posting.google.com>   L Im looking for a VAX/VMS e-mail agent, to send e-mails from VMS to Outlook 9 express, like mailx in Solaris. Is there any free agent ?  Thanks in advance.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:32:59 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr>  Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Mail agent 3 Message-ID: <42c1b3f9$0$6385$626a14ce@news.free.fr>    Shiva MahaDeva wrote: N > Im looking for a VAX/VMS e-mail agent, to send e-mails from VMS to Outlook ; > express, like mailx in Solaris. Is there any free agent ?  > Thanks in advance.    Why VAXmail does not do the job?  I If you want to send mail to any mail server on the Internet, just enable  F smtp as part of TCP/IP and add the "smtp%" before the actual internet  address and Bob's your Uncle.    Example:  9 $ mail/subj="I love VMS" nl: smtp%john.smith@nonymous.org  :-)    D.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 14:04:25 -0700) From: "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn@rbnsn.com>  Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Mail agent C Message-ID: <1119992665.183498.307990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Didier Morandi wrote:  > Shiva MahaDeva wrote: L > > I=B4m looking for a VAX/VMS e-mail agent, to send e-mails from VMS to O= utlook= > > express, like mailx in Solaris. Is there any free agent ?  > > Thanks in advance. > " > Why VAXmail does not do the job? > J > If you want to send mail to any mail server on the Internet, just enableG > smtp as part of TCP/IP and add the "smtp%" before the actual internet  > address and Bob's your Uncle.  > 
 > Example: > = > $ mail/subj=3D"I love VMS" nl: smtp%john.smith@nonymous.org  > :-)   F Actually, if you've set up the logical names correctly, you don't needF the smtp% prefix anymore. Just enclose the recipient in double quotes.  9 $mail/subj=3D"So do I! :-)" nl: "john.smith@nonymous.org"    Ken    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 14:43:35 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 3 Message-ID: <5g+54Ecj$IDg@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <1119966948.951879.137860@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> writes:   @ > Using SET FILE/ATTRIB=(RFM=SEQ,LRL=2300) does not help either. >   -    Those are the wrong attributes.  You want:   #    set file/attr=(rfm=var,lrl=2300)    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 14:49:43 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 3 Message-ID: <$y+FjNswLwFY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <1119969745.535548.179170@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "LJB" <ljbartel@juno.com> writes: H > I tried SET FILE/ATTRIB=(RFM:VAR). It too adds an additional two bytesC > to the begining of the file and changes all h00 to h20. If I need F > variable length records, don't indicate the length think the VAX mayI > want to add those bytes and don't add any end of record markers because G > ascii 10 or any other could be part of a VAX float, how would the VAX  > find the end of record?   C    Set file/attr does not change the contents of the file.  It just G    tells the file system that those two bytes which you say are already H    there are the record lengths.  It finds the end of the record just by    counting that many bytes.  C    Are you sure you have the un-Converted, binary-FTP file when you E    do the set file/attr?  Some of the other things you may have tried (    will change the contents of the file.  @    And be sure the program on the PC is not adding any erroneousD    meta-data like \n.  There's no \n at the end of a variable lengthC    record on VMS unless the data just happens to contain that byte.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jun 2005 14:51:36 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 9 Subject: Re: write sequential variable len record from PC 3 Message-ID: <EXxybvsGNFqJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   l In article <b6ewe.7728$Bq4.3474@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Malmberg <malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp> writes: > B > : Set file/attr=(RFM=VAR, RAT=CR, MRS=2300, LRL=2266) !Where theF > : actual MRS and LRL should be based on what you know to be based onD > : what you wrote in the file.  Usually with variable format files,% > : slightly larger values will work.     1 > Obviously MRS must be equal or larger than LRL.   C    I think you've got MRS and LRL backward.  They're not intuitive.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.360 ************************