1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 18 Mar 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 153       Contents:! Re: check numeric in open-vms sql , Re: csws/apache 2.0 (+php1.2-1 +mysql 4.1-9) DECserver 700 differences? Re: DECserver 700 differences?# Re: Fiorina and The Peter Principle  Re: FreeVMS 0.1.3  Re: FreeVMS 0.1.3  Re: FreeVMS 0.1.3 ) Re: Minimal DECwindows client environment ) Re: Minimal DECwindows client environment . Re: Mulitiple jobs in 2 seperate $batch queuesD Re: Removing "Extra" Carriage Returns (was: DIFF/IGNORE=WHITE_SPACE) Re: request $ search/quiet Re: Suggestion for FAQ Re: Suggestion for FAQ User disk is soon full.... Re: User disk is soon full.... Re: User disk is soon full....  Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK?  Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK?  Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK?  Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK?  Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK?  Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK?  Re: Warren Sander e-mail address Re: What does HP do ?  Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3 Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3 Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3 Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3 Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3 Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 14:34:16 -0800 From: JimStrehlow@data911.com * Subject: Re: check numeric in open-vms sqlC Message-ID: <1111098856.819169.175260@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Eitan wrote:& > In Open-VMS, in SQL (RMS database) :G > How can I find that an expression is a numeric one (and has no string  literals) ? E > Can I do : when the expression is a numeric one, put zero instead ?  > ! > Need sample code (sql), please.   D 1) are you talking about an OpenVMS RMS "file" that you use for some software application? #  - do you have Datatrieve software? D  - do you have a "record layout" of the column positions, sizes, and data types?   D 2) are you talking about some database hosted on your OpenVMS system+ such as Oracle or Sybase or other database? 7 Then use the SQL software that comes with the database.   F It is most probably #1. Datatrieve is the normal DEC/Compaq/HP productG to use; but there are products such as SQLforRMS or something like that  available at a price.   D For the use of a "freebie" utility on OpenVMS, you "can" construct aD SORT with select statements based upon position and size if you know( where the data is in your RMS data file.  E Jim Strehlow, Data911 Law Enforcement Hardware and Software Solutions  Alameda, CA, USA   ------------------------------   Date: 17 MAR 2005 16:44:44 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)5 Subject: Re: csws/apache 2.0 (+php1.2-1 +mysql 4.1-9) 6 Message-ID: <17MAR05.16444443@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  H In a previous article, Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> wrote:  J ->I'm wanting to install apache on Alpha VMS 7.3, & have got the kits off  ->the hp site. ->  + ->2. Can it co-exist with OSU HTTP_SERVER ?   ? Sure - if you run them on different tcp ports. Say apache on 81 0 and osu on 80 until you're ready to transition.    --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison 3 --            karcher.nomorespzm@waisman.wisc.edu      ------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 14:58:49 -06004 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow)# Subject: DECserver 700 differences? 3 Message-ID: <AE9IW8DVYYmy@eisner.encompasserve.org>   L Can someone tell me what, if anything, is the difference between a DECserverJ 700 model DSRVW-CA and DSRVW-YC? I've got some of each. Both are 16 lines, RJ45, support TELNET, ...   K Over the past few months it seems like the power supplies are dropping like G flies. The units power up, but stick at the initial solid "8". Swapping B power supplies seems to fix the problem. I'm also gonna order some replacement power supplies too.     1 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" & 		>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<K Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  @         You [should] not examine legislation in the light of theD         benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in theF         light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause ifF         improperly administered -- Lyndon Johnson, former President of         the U.S.   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 16:47:43 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com ' Subject: Re: DECserver 700 differences? C Message-ID: <1111106863.381897.157610@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bob Kaplow wrote: D > Can someone tell me what, if anything, is the difference between a	 DECserver E > 700 model DSRVW-CA and DSRVW-YC? I've got some of each. Both are 16  lines, > RJ45, support TELNET, ...  > ? > Over the past few months it seems like the power supplies are 
 dropping like @ > flies. The units power up, but stick at the initial solid "8". SwappingD > power supplies seems to fix the problem. I'm also gonna order some! > replacement power supplies too.   F the YC model supports flash memory ... and yes, number 8 usually means power supply change time ...   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 17:20:40 -06004 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow), Subject: Re: Fiorina and The Peter Principle3 Message-ID: <4XEIT8Ew4GUi@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <tcFVd.891$I75.342@news.cpqcorp.net>, hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) writes:E > In article <1109805482.b48929dfad008cf48321d11904dd52b3@teranews>,  1 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  > H >>Carly has been a staunch republican supporter and had been rumoured to1 >>get a government appointment for some time. ...  > = > For those who may have a full stomach, I appologize, but...  > 7 > Carly vs. Hillary in '08 is not all that unthinkable.   D I guess that would guarantee that I vote for yet another third party# candidate. And then move to Canada.   1 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" & 		>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<K Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  I         We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution, K         and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom and '         the security of all Americans.     ------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 16:48:49 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com  Subject: Re: FreeVMS 0.1.3C Message-ID: <1111106929.766157.179060@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   D no matter how you rewrite unix ... it still comes out garbage ... :)   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Mar 2005 01:40:48 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: FreeVMS 0.1.3, Message-ID: <39upt0F676i9kU1@individual.net>  C In article <1111106929.766157.179060@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,  	bob@instantwhip.com writes:F > no matter how you rewrite unix ... it still comes out garbage ... :) >    Bob, go jump in a lake.    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:54:31 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: FreeVMS 0.1.30 Message-ID: <113kn552gsf94cf@corp.supernews.com>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote:F > no matter how you rewrite unix ... it still comes out garbage ... :) >    boob shows his ignorance again.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:56:22 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>2 Subject: Re: Minimal DECwindows client environment2 Message-ID: <W9m_d.1890$n33.1103@news.cpqcorp.net>  > WSA0 is a simple pseudo driver used for nothing more than as aC container for "display" variables (transport, node, server, screen, I etc.).  I'll skip it's other very esoteric uses.  But in any case, I fail B to have any notion of what "sysgen to connect WSA0 to a driver..." means.  = What you need is to have Motif installed.  You need to have a ? variety of things done that only the DECwindows startup command A procedures do (and those come in the Motif LP).  You need to have ( the client libraries, and the transport.  E Is everything needed?  No.  But frankly, it isn't worth the effort to C figure out what can be safely removed.  Feel free to start renaming 8 things to .exe_not and rebooting until it stops working.    : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message< news:1111081316.d80cce34921833f53f032f569faf61a4@teranews...J > I want to have an app on my all mighty Microvax II pop a dialog/alert onH > a xterminal when certain events occur, and once the user acknowlkedges- > the event, the dialog goes away completely.  > > > The all mighty Microvax II is sort of memory constrained :-) > 9 > 1- What is the minimum amount of stuff that needs to be E > installed/started on the microvax II to allow an application to SET H > DISPLAY and then run an application that will output to that display ?H > (transport is already there). ?  Is it just a question of using sysgenL > to connect WSA0: to some driver ? I take it the friver must be installed ? > H > 2- In terms of the application, since it would be using a very limitedH > set of motif and x routines and woudl probably be the only one on thatG > machine to ever use X/Motif, is there an advantage to linking against E > the .OLBs to make it standlone without the need to install images ? I > Would the memory footprint be lesser if the app were linked against the I > OLB, picking only what it needs, as opposed to installing the shareable 
 > images ? > G > Or must there be some file that are installed with some privileges in   > order to make X clients work ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:13:33 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 2 Subject: Re: Minimal DECwindows client environment, Message-ID: <423A010C.1A41A051@teksavvy.com>   FredK wrote:, > What you need is to have Motif installed.   E It is installed. But I am not entirely sure how to get the startup to F run since there is no graphic interface on the all mighty microvax II.> (I tried starting it and it complained about having no graphic
 interfaces).    G > Is everything needed?  No.  But frankly, it isn't worth the effort to E > figure out what can be safely removed.  Feel free to start renaming : > things to .exe_not and rebooting until it stops working.  H Well, I just realised that there are no .OLBs furnished with decwindows,4 so I am forced to link against the shareable images.   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 14:01:20 -0800# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) 7 Subject: Re: Mulitiple jobs in 2 seperate $batch queues = Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0503171401.76969f06@posting.google.com>   s "Stalliano" <bertyboz@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<1111075303.470899.285760@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...  > Hi there,  > H > I just want to preface this question with the fact I have little to noF > experience with VMS but hopefully someone will steer me in the right$ > direction to find the solution. :) > D > Here is the scenario, on our Payroll box (which is an Alpha server= > running VMS version 7.3-1).  We have 2 batch queues set up:  >  > 1. report$batch (job limit=3)  > 2. backup$batch (job limit=1)  > F > We have a nightly backup job that runs on backup$batch to a DLT tapeB > that re-submits itself every night.  This job works fine without3 > problems for the most part.  Here is the problem:  > ? > Once a week one of our users prints a report from our payroll I > application that submits itself in the report$batch queue.  Even though G > the report prints out fine, the job sometimes stays in an "executing" D > status in the queue.  Now when this happens, even though it's in aI > different batch queue that the backup job, the backup job remains in an F > "executing" status as well and doesn't complete.  I don't understandG > this as they are 2 seperate queues, but does it mean because they are H > both "$batch" queues for some reason the job limit affects each other? > B > I'm totally at a loss with this and any help anyone has would be > greatly appreciated. >  > Many thanks in advance!  > 	 > Roberto   When the jobs are running, enter $ show queue /batch /all /full= From the output you should be able to identify the log files. 9 Maybe the backup job has been designed to wait for report ! jobs to finish before proceeding?  Phil   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 14:54:33 -0800 From: JimStrehlow@data911.com M Subject: Re: Removing "Extra" Carriage Returns (was: DIFF/IGNORE=WHITE_SPACE) A Message-ID: <1111100073.841426.5980@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   D I first wanted to thank Guy Peleg of OpenVMS Engineering in a thread that he was reading.C Secondly, I wanted to introduce one of the main reasons why I would  want to use /IGNORE=WHITE_SPACE B Thirdly I wanted to criticize H.P. for creating the problem in theD first place. I do not remember such problems from DEC personnel when5 they created "read me" files for OpenVMS patches etc.   ) I thank everyone for their contributions.  Jim    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:42:23 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com># Subject: Re: request $ search/quiet 2 Message-ID: <z4l_d.1884$_Z2.1279@news.cpqcorp.net>   Nigel Barker wrote:   L > We already have it. Just use GNV. Caveat I haven't checked whether all the > options actually work. >   G It should be standard.  I was the one who grabbed fileutils and ported  G them into GNV.  I don't remember having to touch it at all (pardon the  7 pun).  I think it just recompiled right out of the box.    --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:26:20 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)  Subject: Re: Suggestion for FAQ 2 Message-ID: <wRk_d.1882$nP2.1291@news.cpqcorp.net>  q In article <FZCaKMw6pN4e@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: f :In article <Xns961CE269809lithiumnospamgmxat@212.33.32.148>, Bernhard <lithium@nospam_gmx.at> writes:  F :> Forgive me for my confusing logicals and symbols. Although being a E :> software engineer for quite some time, I am an absolute newbie to  G :> OpenVMS. I have still difficulties getting to grips with OpenVMS :-|  : E :   I know a programmer who calls them "logical symbols".  When I was B :   new to VMS it took a couple shots to figure out the differece. : ) :   Maybe it should be in the FAQ.  Hoff?   G   Ayup.  I'll have to go read up on DCL, though, as I'm not certain how G   that all works.  If I can figure out enough of DCL to answer this for 5   the FAQ, I'll add some text to the next FAQ.    :-)    	--   K   Logical names are implemented within the OpenVMS executive are accessable L   from within the OpenVMS I/O subsystem and from application code, from DCL,J   and from elsewhere, while symbols are implemented within the DCL commandJ   interpreter and are only accessable and only useful when the DCL commandH   interpreter is active.   Symbols are only particularly useful when theG   DCL command interpreter is actively reading and processing its input. K   (Further, you may need to know when the symbol substitution is performed, J   particularly if you are using ampersand substitution and/or the DCL PIPEK   command -- some of the "fun" with the PIPE command is already included in K   the FAQ, too.  Conversely, logical names are available and accessable and 9   are translatable in most user and most system contexts.   J   As for typical terminology, symbols are substituted, while logical names   are translated.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 18:02:20 -0800' From: phil@rephil.org (Phil Mendelsohn)  Subject: Re: Suggestion for FAQ = Message-ID: <4ee9bf09.0503171802.68f9848f@posting.google.com>   ] hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in message news:<wRk_d.1882$nP2.1291@news.cpqcorp.net>... s > In article <FZCaKMw6pN4e@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: h > :In article <Xns961CE269809lithiumnospamgmxat@212.33.32.148>, Bernhard <lithium@nospam_gmx.at> writes:  I >   Ayup.  I'll have to go read up on DCL, though, as I'm not certain how I >   that all works.  If I can figure out enough of DCL to answer this for 7 >   the FAQ, I'll add some text to the next FAQ.    :-)  >  > 	--  > M >   Logical names are implemented within the OpenVMS executive are accessable N >   from within the OpenVMS I/O subsystem and from application code, from DCL,L >   and from elsewhere, while symbols are implemented within the DCL commandL >   interpreter and are only accessable and only useful when the DCL commandJ >   interpreter is active.   Symbols are only particularly useful when theI >   DCL command interpreter is actively reading and processing its input. M >   (Further, you may need to know when the symbol substitution is performed, L >   particularly if you are using ampersand substitution and/or the DCL PIPEM >   command -- some of the "fun" with the PIPE command is already included in M >   the FAQ, too.  Conversely, logical names are available and accessable and ; >   are translatable in most user and most system contexts.  > L >   As for typical terminology, symbols are substituted, while logical names >   are translated.   D It might be nice to include a bit of the DEC philosophy that spawnedE (no pun intended) logicals.  When I came back to VMS (thanks Hobbyist E folks!) I had been playing with *nix for a while, and needed a bit of C a refresher on a few things.  Fortunately my Dad is ex-DEC (RSX-11M C team, some of his code migrated to VMS 1.0, and he was on the VAX-B A team before leaving for Sales and later Software Services -- good 
 resource.)  ? He made it very clear that while I *could* think of logicals as F "synonyms," that was a naive near-miss, and that I should realize thatA their power came from being an abstraction layer, so that I would E never have to refer to anything absolute.  That's why we use logicals ? instead of device names, etc.  The furthest your code gets from B portable is having to rewire the appropriate logicals table(s).  ID think most readers on this list know this better than I, but perhaps0 some FAQ readers might benefit from the verbage.  E I have to also finish the thought from that conversation.  As he also E put it, "I finally understood the DEC way of thinking when I realized D that all software should be written as a special case of the generalB thing one level further up.  That's what wrong with Microsoft theyF only write a bunch of special cases."  (I'd probably include Unix too,B but for reasons I already mentioned, you can imagine why I grew up' thinking "Unix is a four-letter word.")   D Anyway, sorry to reminisce.  Ignore it if you want, but I think it'dB be great to help keep the Right Way(TM) of doing things alive, and2 mention *why* logicals/translations are desirable.   Cheers,  Phil Mendelsohn   % University of Manitoba, Dept. of Math ( 342 Machray Hall, Winnipeg, Man. R3T 2N2 Office:  446 Machray Hall  www.rephil.org   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 18:45:17 -0800$ From: pelle@mbox.com.au (Pelle Lind)# Subject: User disk is soon full.... = Message-ID: <966dea01.0503171845.42002504@posting.google.com>    Hi,   C I'm maintaining an old system and previous owners didn't leave much < information of what they done or how to continue maintenace.  E 1. What kind of file maintenance should be done? Any special tools to  run?@ 2. My user disk is filling up rather quickly at the moment and IE suspect someone is generating lots of data, how can I find that user?    Regards, Pelle    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:40:27 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: User disk is soon full.... , Message-ID: <423A4D95.14BD6534@teksavvy.com>   Pelle Lind wrote: G > 1. What kind of file maintenance should be done? Any special tools to  > run?B > 2. My user disk is filling up rather quickly at the moment and IG > suspect someone is generating lots of data, how can I find that user?      there is a diskquota utility.   
 $MC DISKQUOTA   G Type HELP at the utility prompt and you'll see good explanatiosn on how A to enable and build the diskquota file. You can then use the show G command to geta  listing of usage for each user. And then you go to the C sorts store, buy a basebal; bat and visit each user of large files.   E For files that don't belongto known users, there is the PURGE command B which can zap old version of files (VMS keeps multiple versions of= files). This can free up a significant amouynt of disk space.   H If the system still runs important application, you may wiosh to talk toG the owner of that application to inquire about hwo much loggin needs to  be retained for how long.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:10:45 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ' Subject: Re: User disk is soon full.... 0 Message-ID: <113ko3ii5qti9c5@corp.supernews.com>   Pelle Lind wrote:  > Hi,  > E > I'm maintaining an old system and previous owners didn't leave much > > information of what they done or how to continue maintenace. > G > 1. What kind of file maintenance should be done? Any special tools to  > run?B > 2. My user disk is filling up rather quickly at the moment and IG > suspect someone is generating lots of data, how can I find that user?  > 
 > Regards, > Pelle    DIR /tot /siz DEVICE:[*...]   C You'll get each directory on the device, the number of file in the  ! directory, and the total storage.   & Use HELP DIR to learn all the options.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:11:57 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) ) Subject: Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK? 2 Message-ID: <1Ek_d.1880$nP2.1478@news.cpqcorp.net>  c In article <d19o7m$i7u$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Lock Horsburgh" <lock@lohmacs.fsnet.co.uk> writes: 4 :Does anybody know if there is/has been Java on VAX?  :   The following is from a DECUS Q&A from way back in 1998:   	--        "...  2     Q: Can I run Java applications on OpenVMS VAX?  I     A: No. You can run Java applications on any operating system platform I     that implements the Java Virtual Machine. The Java Virtual Machine is I     included in both the Java Development Kit (JDK) for OpenVMS Alpha and J     in the Netscape Navigator for OpenVMS Alpha. However, the Java VirtualD     Machine won't be available on OpenVMS VAX. Why? The Java VirtualK     Machine requires an implementation of the IEEE math standard within the G     operating system. This IEEE standard is not part of the OpenVMS VAX J     architecture. In our attempts to emulate this IEEE standard on OpenVMSD     VAX, we encountered architectural restrictions that hindered ourG     ability to deliver a conformant Java Virtual Machine implementation ?     required by JavaSoft. Further attempts to work around these K     architectural restrictions on OpenVMS VAX resulted in Java applications *     running with unacceptable performance.       ..."   	--   F   There is a copy of the DECUS 1998 Q&A document -- the document that 0   includes the cited text -- posted on the 'net.  E   To be called Java, the environment has to be conformant, and to be  E   conformant, the environment needs very specific IEEE floating point E   behaviours.  VAX lacks native IEEE floating point, which means that E   all IEEE floating point must be emulated.  This proved to be Really    Slow.   I   For a related discussion, see the on-going discussions of the (relative F   lack of) performance of the Mozilla browser on older Alpha hardware;8   on the Alpha microprocessors prior to the EV56 series.  C   There is related information on Java in the OpenVMS FAQ, as well.   F   Both Alpha and Integrity provide native IEEE floating point support.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:01:58 -0500   From: nobody <nonody@nobody.org>) Subject: Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK? * Message-ID: <4239E22C.3380EA0F@nobody.org>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: G >   behaviours.  VAX lacks native IEEE floating point, which means that G >   all IEEE floating point must be emulated.  This proved to be Really 	 >   Slow.   E However, in an environment where the VMS host serves applications via E web or other transfer methods, the ability to precompile JAVA apps on F the VAX in batch (even if it takes hours) and deposit the jar files inA the right location to be served to the world would have been nice I especially since in the 1998 timeframe,  VAX wasn't as dead as it is now.   C PSION made the same mistake with its Series 5, promising a software G upgrade with JAVA in it, and decided to not provide it and only install D it on the next version the series 5mx, which fragmented the platformE sicne a large portion of users couldn't run software written with the F current SDK which amde use of features on the 5mx not available on the 5. PSION no longer exists.  C If you want your platform to grow, you need to ensure 100% software F availability on all hardware it runs on, even if it means that on some! hardware it may be slow/emulated.     D Apple still wins hands down for its migration from 68000 to PowerPC.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:29:00 +0100 & From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch>) Subject: Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK? , Message-ID: <39ub42F6287asU1@individual.net>  
 nobody wrote:    > E > PSION made the same mistake with its Series 5, promising a software I > upgrade with JAVA in it, and decided to not provide it and only install F > it on the next version the series 5mx, which fragmented the platformG > sicne a large portion of users couldn't run software written with the H > current SDK which amde use of features on the 5mx not available on the > 5.    I What you say may well be true, but what killed Psion for me was hardware  9 quality control. 3 dead ones inside 18 months put me off.     >PSION no longer exists.   J What I don't understand is that seemed to kill themselves off voluntarily.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:26:21 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK? , Message-ID: <423A040C.D64F9D79@teksavvy.com>   Paul Sture wrote: J > What you say may well be true, but what killed Psion for me was hardware; > quality control. 3 dead ones inside 18 months put me off.     > PSION prematurely released the Series 5 so it could be ahed ofE Microsoft's WinCE. It lacked about half of the prmomised features and H PSION promised to provide updates when the stuff became ready. What theyH really did is just produce a demo of their EPOC32 operating system so itH could be sold to the mobile phone copmpanies who formed Symbian. But forB about 2-3 years, nothing came of it because PSION wanted to finishD EPOC32 for its PDAs while the mobile phone companies wanted to ditchB most of EPOC32 and just keep the kernel and put in the real stuff.  A The PSION hardware was a really neat sleek design, but not robust E enough. My series 3 has had its hinges fixed many times, but the last F fix seems to hold. Epoxy resin and fiberglass strands carefully put to hold the parts together :-)   C PSION is so much like Digital. Great product, bad marketing. But in F hindsight, when Psion release the Series 5, they quickly dropped theirF north american distributors, and didn't bother admitting that Palm wasA aserious competitor. When Palm entered european markets (they had F already taken the north american markety), PSION simply widthdrew fromG PDA market. My feeling is that PSION saw this coming while the series 5 H was being developped and decided to simply get as much value as possible7 for the OS and then quitly widthsraw from the market.     G With the money they got from Symbian, PSION bought out a small canadian D firm called Teklogix which makes Microsoft based industrial handheldF devices. PSION is shutting down its support operation for its original PDAs this June.   H The user interface on the series 5 was pale in comparison to that of theC Series3, despite the fact it has touch screen. It was designed as a D showcase of the OS features. (so you had cascading menus to save theB file, cool looking, but not efficient). They also had an automated< feature to open the last opened document when you started an4 application, and no way to exit without saving !!!!!  G But the series 3 was an amazing piece of software packed into so little D footprint. Its proprietary networking was similar in functionlity toG that of DECNET. I was able to edit files residing on the macintosh from B the Series3 editor, and save them back as if they were local.  Abd@ having preemetive multitasking with different process prioritiesG (including non-prempted if priority is above 15) was pretty amazing for  a 80286 equivalent inside.      L > What I don't understand is that seemed to kill themselves off voluntarily.  H Owner gave up and didn't want to give PSION to someone else. Think of itC as Olsen shutting down DIgital rather than handind it to Palmer and & knowing Palmer would ruin the company.  C PSION was unwilling to compate aghainst palm and Microsoft, despite * having superior products. Sound familiar ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:45:08 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)) Subject: Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK? 6 Message-ID: <00A40E99.2454D89D@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  M In article <4239E22C.3380EA0F@nobody.org>, nobody <nonody@nobody.org> writes:  >Hoff Hoffman wrote:H >>   behaviours.  VAX lacks native IEEE floating point, which means thatH >>   all IEEE floating point must be emulated.  This proved to be Really
 >>   Slow. > F >However, in an environment where the VMS host serves applications viaF >web or other transfer methods, the ability to precompile JAVA apps onG >the VAX in batch (even if it takes hours) and deposit the jar files in B >the right location to be served to the world would have been niceJ >especially since in the 1998 timeframe,  VAX wasn't as dead as it is now. > D >PSION made the same mistake with its Series 5, promising a softwareH >upgrade with JAVA in it, and decided to not provide it and only installE >it on the next version the series 5mx, which fragmented the platform F >sicne a large portion of users couldn't run software written with theG >current SDK which amde use of features on the 5mx not available on the  >5. PSION no longer exists.  > D >If you want your platform to grow, you need to ensure 100% softwareG >availability on all hardware it runs on, even if it means that on some " >hardware it may be slow/emulated. > E >Apple still wins hands down for its migration from 68000 to PowerPC.   J So, JF, you're saying that OS X and all the iLife tools run on 68000-based Macs?   ? Or are you saying that Apple doesn't want its platform to grow?    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:32:25 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: Re: VAX OpenVMs Java - JVM? SDK? , Message-ID: <423A4BB3.36924D63@teksavvy.com>  , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:G > >Apple still wins hands down for its migration from 68000 to PowerPC.  > L > So, JF, you're saying that OS X and all the iLife tools run on 68000-based > Macs?     H No. But PowerPc was a superset of 68k because 68k applications could runD automatically with the 68k emulator built into MACos for PowerPC. InB fact, much of the MACos in the early powerPc version was still 68kH executables that ran under the emulator. Where they did something reallyG cool was that a powerpc image could run and make calls to routines in a?G a "shareable image" that was 68k executable and the emulator would kick.* in transparently for that subroutine code.  H VMS trasitioned to Alpha without such a built-in automatic emulator, andG at a time when Palerm started his slash and burn to reduce the softwaree. inventory, with much never making it to Alpha.  F The transition to IA64 is less damaging because less software is beingH killed during this transition, although much is laready dead and just on life support on ALPHA by isvs.  H Now, Apple continued to develop MACos on 68k until 7.5 I think. Starting/ with 8.*, MACos was only avaiolable on PowerPC.n  F Now, HP has not yet officially killed developpement of VMS on VAX. AndH in 1998 when this JAVA thing came up, development on VAX was still going strong.]   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 20:10:49 -05003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com>e) Subject: Re: Warren Sander e-mail address-. Message-ID: <mddpsxxwyg6.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  % hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:r  L >   Warren isn't necessarily the most appropriate contact for older archivalJ >   materials.  Accordingly, you may want to post what it is that you are % >   looking for here in the newsgroup   N Thanks, Hoff.  I really was looking for Warren's HP e-mail address.  I need toJ talk to him about some old 36-bit stuff, and I know he hangs out in c.o.v.   -- sL Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Mar 2005 17:23:37 -06004 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) Subject: Re: What does HP do ?3 Message-ID: <T1sKKhzgmdkx@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  N In article <opsnrfcewuzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:2 > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:09:00 GMT, Keith Parris  ' > <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:e >  >> JF Mezei wrote:L >>> When you enter the commodity market, which Wintel desktops are, It isn'tL >>> chopping pennies off the windows distribution that counts, it is getting: >>> your products to customers fast and cheap that counts. >>I >> And with a business model that revolves around mail-order, there's a  2H >> hard lower limit on how fast you can get the product to the customer. >>H > Dell doesn't have a mail order business model anymore, it has morphed.L >> I'd also argue that quality and service are also important, in addition   >> to price. > 5 > Dell's quality and servic are A-1, in my experience   J ROTFLMAO! Every one I know is a FORMER Dell customer because their serviceH and support SUCK. THe place I used to work ordered PCs 50 at a time, andK Dell couldn't even get the orders right and on time, much less support whate
 they sold.  K HP needs help here, but Dell certainly isn't the role model for them to aim64 for. Unless it's time for another BoB Palmer era :-(    1 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"A& 		>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<K Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdfrL     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  I         We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution,rK         and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom andt'         the security of all Americans. s   ------------------------------   Date: 17 Mar 2005 18:53:04 GMT/ From: Thierry Dussuet <thierry@dussuet.lugs.ch> % Subject: Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3 / Message-ID: <slrnd3jkgg.sq.thierry@MARS.Family>t  K On 2005-03-17, Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:kb > In article <d1c38d$49g$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: >> i >> huh ? >> the functions I use, such as  >> o >> fgets( pcBuf, ncBuf, fp ) >>  " >> fread( buffer, 1, length, fp ); >> h! >> read ( handle, addr, length );m >> r$ >> all have proper length specified. >> r* >> And buffers in C have the storage class5 >> the programmer wishes, stack, static or calloc'ed.  >mI >     Yes, if you restrict yourself to functions which DO know the lengthDB >     of the buffer you definitely reduce the likelyhood of buffer >     overrun.  N Well, then it's easy:  You take a baseball bat and use the following algorithm' for every C coder who doesn't use them:  	1. Hit him on the head.? 	2. Ask him to promise never to do this ever ever ever again --o  		If he promises, go to point 3. 		Else, go back to 1. 3 	3. Hit him some more times on the head to be sure.a  N (n.b. You are allowed to use something else than a baseball bat for repetitive       cases)   Thierry    ------------------------------   Date: 18 Mar 2005 00:21:45 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3-, Message-ID: <39ul8pF6534p5U1@individual.net>  3 In article <5IVLsW$WZlPr@eisner.encompasserve.org>,u> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > D >     But if you program in other languages it can be hard to code a4 >     buffer overrun, which is the way it should be.  A But if you program in other languages it can also be hard to code@> the task at hand.  Ever try to code an OS in Fortran or COBOL?> (Although COBOL is also not immune to buffer overrun.)  And we" were talking about writting an OS.  C I will admit that PLI would probably be a good candidate except formC the dearth of programmers who actually know it well enough to write  or maintain an OS.  C I am still waiting for someone to take on the project of re-writing B Unix in something other than C in order to prove what a tremendous= improvement it would be. (I have had many people suggest that A Unix would be so much better if it were written in Ada but no one49 ever takes on the task.  Personally, I don't believe it.)r   bill   -- wJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:01:30 -0800R# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>6% Subject: Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3u( Message-ID: <opsns6gshnzgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On 18 Mar 2005 00:21:45 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  5 > In article <5IVLsW$WZlPr@eisner.encompasserve.org>,(@ > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>E >>     But if you program in other languages it can be hard to code aa5 >>     buffer overrun, which is the way it should be.o >tC > But if you program in other languages it can also be hard to code @ > the task at hand.  Ever try to code an OS in Fortran or COBOL?@ > (Although COBOL is also not immune to buffer overrun.)  And we$ > were talking about writting an OS.  ( A good portion of Primos was in Fortran. > E > I will admit that PLI would probably be a good candidate except for-E > the dearth of programmers who actually know it well enough to writee > or maintain an OS. >cE > I am still waiting for someone to take on the project of re-writingeD > Unix in something other than C in order to prove what a tremendous? > improvement it would be. (I have had many people suggest thatiC > Unix would be so much better if it were written in Ada but no onea; > ever takes on the task.  Personally, I don't believe it.)o  B About 20 years ago I rewrote portions of the BSD4.3 kernel in PL/I& that had previously been in assembler!  E Well there are probably 25 PL/I programmers for every Ada programmer,  if not more. >i > bill >s   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Mar 2005 01:50:58 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3c, Message-ID: <39uqg2F676i9kU2@individual.net>  ( In article <opsns6gshnzgicya@hyrrokkin>,& 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:H > On 18 Mar 2005 00:21:45 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: > 6 >> In article <5IVLsW$WZlPr@eisner.encompasserve.org>,A >> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  >>>fF >>>     But if you program in other languages it can be hard to code a6 >>>     buffer overrun, which is the way it should be. >>D >> But if you program in other languages it can also be hard to codeA >> the task at hand.  Ever try to code an OS in Fortran or COBOL?aA >> (Although COBOL is also not immune to buffer overrun.)  And wen% >> were talking about writting an OS.u > * > A good portion of Primos was in Fortran.  7 Not any significant portions of code that are unique toc9 operating systems.  Of course, none of it was in C, whichs7 should make a lot of people here happy.  Actually, likee: VMS, it was written in a collection of languages including native assembler.n   >>F >> I will admit that PLI would probably be a good candidate except forF >> the dearth of programmers who actually know it well enough to write >> or maintain an OS.i >>F >> I am still waiting for someone to take on the project of re-writingE >> Unix in something other than C in order to prove what a tremendouso@ >> improvement it would be. (I have had many people suggest thatD >> Unix would be so much better if it were written in Ada but no one< >> ever takes on the task.  Personally, I don't believe it.) > D > About 20 years ago I rewrote portions of the BSD4.3 kernel in PL/I( > that had previously been in assembler!  D Like I said above, I would love to see Unix re-written in some otherB language.  It might be fun to write it in PLI.  It is probably the: best language to do the job in if your not going to use C.   > G > Well there are probably 25 PL/I programmers for every Ada programmer,R > if not more.  D Actually, I would expect it to be the other way around (depending onD your definition of "programmer").  Why do I say that?  Because whileB we stopped making PLI programmers a long time ago lots of schools,E my own included, spent a  number of years not so long ago turning outIE Ada programmers.  And then you have all those people that groups likesD DOD turned into Ada Programmers when they thought it would take over the computing world.   bill a   -- fJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Mar 2005 04:37:27 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3q, Message-ID: <39v487F65p1uvU1@individual.net>  , In article <423A4C85.905D249A@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:< >> operating systems.  Of course, none of it was in C, which: >> should make a lot of people here happy.  Actually, like= >> VMS, it was written in a collection of languages including  >> native assembler. >  > J > Funny how people would balk at the use of C due to buffer overflows, but > think it OK to use assembler.)  C Had it been available I would imagine C would have been used.  But, A the first C Compiler for Primos I saw was written by Garth ConboyjB and we didn't see it til Primos was already at Rev 19.  Who knows,@ if it had been it might have led to doing somethings differently> that would have avoided many of the things that made Primos as@ incompatable with the Unix Freeware world as VMS is.  Primos wasA a nice OS.  It could have been really great had it been given the ? chance to mature.  It used a security model that would probably 1 have been much more to the liking of people here.    bill   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   m   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:53:36 -0500h' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> % Subject: Re: [Announce] FreeVMS 0.1.3 0 Message-ID: <113kn3fslau328d@corp.supernews.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:5 > In article <5IVLsW$WZlPr@eisner.encompasserve.org>,t@ > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > D >>    But if you program in other languages it can be hard to code a4 >>    buffer overrun, which is the way it should be. >  > C > But if you program in other languages it can also be hard to codeR@ > the task at hand.  Ever try to code an OS in Fortran or COBOL?@ > (Although COBOL is also not immune to buffer overrun.)  And we$ > were talking about writting an OS.  I Doing an OS in a HLL isn't the best of ideas, due to capabilities.  Many iG times you need to do something that the language isn't suited for.  My d@ own favorite, VAX/DEC BASIC isn't, as far as I know, capable of D re-entrant code, threads, and such, things an OS demands.  That's a F compiler issue, I think, and surmountable.  Only problem is, how many ) types of system will the compiler run on?-  E > I will admit that PLI would probably be a good candidate except forhE > the dearth of programmers who actually know it well enough to writel > or maintain an OS.  @ I don't know PL/I, but I'm aware that it's been used for system L programming on multiple occasions, so I'd give it credit for being suitable.  E > I am still waiting for someone to take on the project of re-writingdD > Unix in something other than C in order to prove what a tremendous? > improvement it would be. (I have had many people suggest that C > Unix would be so much better if it were written in Ada but no one ; > ever takes on the task.  Personally, I don't believe it.)   E To what purpose?  It could only be built on systems that support the nC selected language.  It seems that C is supported in some manner on 1J almost everything still being built.  While I don't like it, it's reality.  F I still think many OS tasks are best written in assembler, but that's = not real portable, even VAX MACRO-32, which has made it to 3 hI architechures.  People willing to accept the job of writing in assembler y aren't real numerous either.   Dave   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.153 ************************culties getting to grips with OpenVMS :-|  : E :   I know a programmer who calls them "logical symbols".  When I was B :   new to VMS it took a couple V'Q(󰝀Z-QҹqcG'3O`g /Q7 C:	#ʨUs藓s疕~
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