1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 26 Mar 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 169       Contents:C about .Note section of ELF; was: CLD symbol table object on Itanium @ RE: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for@ Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software forP Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to IntegrP Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to IntegrP Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to IntegrP RE: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to IntegrP Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to IntegrP Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to Integr& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium. Free uVax/PDP-11 systems in Washington DC area Great News Blog! New smart use of computer....  Question on DCL f<dollar>string P Re: TCPIP 5.4: obsolete information in HELP, what are new defaults (clusteralias5 Re: TCPIP: why can an MX record not point to a CNAME?  Where's the base?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:47:40 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGL Subject: about .Note section of ELF; was: CLD symbol table object on Itanium0 Message-ID: <00A414EB.33E2FF98@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Z In article <K901e.2313$Eq2.662@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:! >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  >  >>  M >> I've had my head in ELF image layouts all day too trying to understand how M >> to get at the image ident info in the .note section.  Finally happened up- K >> on NHDR$ defs in $ELFDEF which was hiding in STARLET and not in LIB like N >> all of the VAX and Alpha image def files.  Sheesh, so much for consistency. >>   > B >Can't say what that happened other than a tip-o-the-hat to ELF's , >standardization (whatever that is worth)??? > J >By now, you know that fishing the image ident out of an ELF image is not J >for the faint of heart.  For the rest of the readers, the image ident is J >located at a somewhat fixed offset in the image header on Alpha and VAX. H >  On ELF, there is no such concept.  What ELF does provide is a "note" H >section that essentially allows any system to encode any sort of data. J >We use them in object files to hold the compiler name which compiled the H >module, the compilation date/time, etc.  Getting at them from inside a A >program involves opening the file, finding the note section and  J >processing all the notes.  We are looking at adding some callable API in ( >a future release to make it all easier.  E It appears from the images that I've examined that the .Note section  E falls on a block boundary.  Is this just a figment of the images that 8 I have empirically examined or is this always the case?    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2005 13:39:26 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) I Subject: RE: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for 3 Message-ID: <S2HrKOb+DL2M@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDIEHBGDAA.dallen@nist.gov>, "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes:  J > Leads me to ask - "What's the typical lifespan of NASA gear and how well( > embedded is VMS in that world today?".  F    NASA gear lasts up to about 30 years.  I'm using 12 year old AlphasC    and 18 year old VAXen that refuse to quit.  It's only been a few E    years since we retired our PDP-11.  It's only been two years since H    I've seen an 11/780 in excess.  It's only been about two months sinceK    I recommended a new VMS server.  And I've seen a lot of newer machines,  C    too.  I'm looking at work that may justify my first VMS 8.2 I64.   I    I've got applications that won't run on UNIX or Windows because their  H    kernel's aren't designed for real time.  I've got servers sitting on 3    the internet where I never worry about security.   E    And the next time I get asked, I'll probably recommend another VMS C    based solution.  I'm working on a new VMS based application now.    ------------------------------   Date: 26 Mar 2005 02:59:26 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)I Subject: Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for , Message-ID: <3ak1geF686ll6U2@individual.net>  : In article <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDIEHBGDAA.dallen@nist.gov>,& 	"Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes:J > Leads me to ask - "What's the typical lifespan of NASA gear and how well( > embedded is VMS in that world today?".  K I don't know about VMS but it wasn't all that long ago NASA was out begging J for someone to give them a PDP-11 because of an ongoing deep-space projectM that although it required one they had long since gotten rid of all they had.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 26 Mar 2005 02:19:39 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)Y Subject: Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to Integr , Message-ID: <3ajv5rF6df09tU1@individual.net>  B In article <1111773031.915714.98280@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, 	bob@instantwhip.com writes:C > no, it is the students place to walk out of the class because the  > instuctor is a moron ... >   A Bob, you are the moron.  If you actually read and had the ability @ to comprehend what I wrote about the nature of the students, youD would have seen that this is an Army school and the students neither3 walk out nor dictate curriculum to the instructors.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 26 Mar 2005 02:56:36 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)Y Subject: Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to Integr , Message-ID: <3ak1b4F686ll6U1@individual.net>  R In article <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB59539A@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>,* 	"Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes: >  >> -----Original Message----- % >> From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu=20 B >> [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: March 24, 2005 9:21 PM  >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComB >> Subject: Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration=20* >> Software for Alpha to Integrity Servers >>=20  >> In article=20A >> <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB59538D@tayexc19.americas.cpqc  >> orp.net>,- >> 	"Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes:  >> >=20   >> >> -----Original Message-----* >> >> From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu=3D20E >> >> [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon " >> >> Sent: March 24, 2005 6:01 PM >> >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com G >> >> Subject: Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration=3D20 - >> >> Software for Alpha to Integrity Servers 
 >> >>=3D202 >> >> In article <424338f9$1@news.langstoeger.at>,? >> >> 	peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes: D >> >> > In article <uNE0e.2216$yq1.1658@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Bob=3D20( >> >> Lail" <Robert.Lail@hp.com> writes:E >> >> >>  Why do you say that?  OpenVMS V8.2 for AlphaServers is=3D20  >> >> available and=3D20C >> >> >>shipping. The AlphaServer 1200 is one of the supported=3D20  >> >> platforms. Future=3D20B >> >> >>versions will continue to support AlphaServers until at=20 >> least 2010. >> >> >=3D20H >> >> > Maybe because he might not order it, because his boss never=3D20 >> >> heard of VMS, ) >> >> > or heard it died many years ago ?  >> >> >=3D20H >> >> > Why do you think, he himself believes that VMS (Alpha) is dead ?
 >> >> > =3D20 
 >> >>=3D20E >> >> So I'm sitting in a class on computer security and in the front E >> >> of the room the instructor is talkiing about how VMS died about F >> >> the same time Digital did.  The company was bought by Compaq butI >> >> VMS was already dead.  And then it was bought by some other company H >> >> who's name he couldn't recall.  So I piped in that the company wasF >> >> HP and that VMS was still going strong.  "Oh no." he said.  "VMSB >> >> is dead.  Used for nothing but a few legacy (there's that=20 >> word again)? >> >> applications.  You never see it mentioned in the trade=20  >> press anymore."? >> >> So I said what about things like JStars?  And he said,=20  >> "Yeah, JStars$ >> >> and other legacy application."
 >> >>=3D20D >> >> So what does this mean in the real world?  The instructor alsoF >> >> said at another point in the class that he does this class aboutC >> >> 50 times a year.  Let's see, 50 classes, 20 people per class. F >> >> Senior NCO's, Warrant Officers, Lieutenants, Captains, Colonels.B >> >> And then there are the Allied Officers from other countries.H >> >> What was it someone said not so long ago about DOD still being oneC >> >> of those major VMS customers?  How long do you expect that to E >> >> continue when the decision makers all learn about it like this? I >> >> (No, I am n ot going to fight with the instructor to try and change 0 >> >> his mind.  I'm just another student here.)
 >> >>=3D20
 >> >> bill
 >> >>=3D20 >> >=20 ? >> > Next time you meet an instructor like that, ask him how=20  >> many years ofB >> > real IT experience he has had outside of his narrow little=20 >> cube. Don'tG >> > just sit back and not say anything - that will only encourage this C >> > person to continue spouting crap when he needs to be put in=20 
 >> his place.  >>=20 G >> Kerry, let me know when you get back to the real world.  The student C >> is never in a position to "put the instructor in his place". =20  >>=20  > D > Bill - give me a break. Do you mean to tell me that a room full ofI > seasoned IT Pro's is going to be bashful about speaking their mind? Yes % > sir. No sir. You must be right sir.   E I guess the whole article was just too subtle.  Both you and Bob seem D to have missed what tis school is.  Let me put it more plainly.  I'mE at Ft. Gordon, GA.  The "students" are all in the military.  They are I not seasoned IT Professionals in most cases (I am, by far, the exception) B they are seasoned soldiers.  In most cases coming to these classesA because they are entering into the IT filed within the Army. I am E attending whaqt is called The Warrant Officer Basic Course.  With the E exception of a a few of my Army Reserve and National Guard peers most B of these people have 8-10 years of Army computer or communicationsB experience and no commercial It experience at all.  The same wouldE be true of the NCO's and the higher ranking officers as well.  To the E best of my knowledge, not one other person in the classroom even knew F what we were talking about when VMS came up.  About half the class has nothing but Windows experience.    > A >> > At the very least ensure his Mgmt knows via feedback that=20  >> his personal B >> > beliefs should not be preached to Customers who might take=20
 >> offence at  >> > his soapboxing. >>=20 F >> I'm not the customer.  The customer is DOD who is perfectly pleased >> with his performance. >>=20  > I > Well, of course. According to you, no students are complaining that his J > personal soapboxing was very unprofessional, so how would they even know > there might be a problem?   C He wasn't "soapboxing".  VMS was mentioned in passing as was MacOS, E Ultrix and some of the old IBM mainframe stuff.  I have no doubt that D the instructor honestly believes exactly what he said.  And I am notE in a position to change his mind.  A few well placed ads and articles F in current trade rags might do it, over time, but he was my instructorG for 2.5 days.  Hardly likely that I could monopolize enough of his time  to have any effect at all.   > G > I also take issue with your view that just because an instructor says A > something that seasoned students take it for the gospel truth.    @ Again, you seem to have missed an understanding of the audience.  H >                                                                You areH > really saying the IT students are sheep and I find that really hard to
 > believe.  K They are hardly sheep.  But then, they are hardly seasoned IT Professionals H either.  They are very typical of people entering into the IT managementH arena today, however.  They have never heard of VMS and if they rememberJ the term at all in a week it will be as a dead, legacy system.  And we allH know how likely they are to see any articles in what trade rags they get to read to dispel this belief.   >  >> >=20 H >> > Any instructor who says controversial things like that in any classC >> > *about any OS* is obviously an instructor who has not spent=20  >> much time in B >> > the real world of IT. If the instructor had spent any time=20 >> in real life ? >> > IT, they would know how controversial making statements=20  >> like that can
 >> > be.=3D20  >>=20 E >> There is nothing controversial about it at all.  He stated it as a H >> fact and the majority will accept it as such and go on to make futureF >> decisions based on that information.  Note, that one of the reasonsC >> given for this was that VMS never gets mentioned in the trade=20  >> journals.F >> Whre have we heard this before?  And who is the only one capable of >> doing something about it? >>=20  >> >=20 E >> > Microsoft now refers to its own Windows 2000 *and* Windows NT as B >> > "legacy" versions, so does this instructor think Microsoft=20 >> is legacy as 
 >> > well? >>=20 I >> Of course not.  But he did spend a considerable amount of time talking = >> about the insecurity of Microsoft products as this is a=20  >> Systems Security I >> and Management course.  But we're not concerned with Microsoft.  We're G >> concerned with VMS and the popular conceptions about it's existence.  >>=20  >> >=20 ? >> > Let me guess, the instructor was about 25, had a pocket=20  >> protector and/ >> > wore black rimmed glasses as well - right?  >>=20 A >> Hardly.  40-something with 20 years of IT experience within=20  >> DOD and then + >> continued work with DOD as a contractor.  >>=20  >> >=20 
 >> > ROTFL...  >>=20 C >> Isn't that rather hard to do with your head in the sand?  In any 9 >> case, it is not the correct response to the situation.  >>=20  > E > I disagree. You want HP to advertize OpenVMS more. Fine. I may even  > agree with you.=20 > B > However, but by not speaking up when you disagree with someone'sH > statements because you are afraid to speak your mind, it is really you+ > who are putting your head in the sand.=20   D I am not afraid to speak my mind.  I did speak up.  But I'm also notE stupid and I know my place.  Disrupting the class on a sidelight that E really has little if anything to do with the purpose of the course is D not proper behavior.  And wether you like it or not defending VMS isD not my problem.  I do not want to see the death of VMS any more thanC anyone else here but if it happens, it will really have very little  effect on my everyday life.    >  >> >=20 > >> > Bottom line is that like Microsoft, all platforms have=20 >> legacy versions,  >>=20 F >> Kerry, it's not about Microsoft.  It's about people's perception ofF >> VMS and Compaq's and now HP's refusal to do anything about changing >> that perception.  >>=20 I >> > but that does not make the entire platform "legacy". Mainframes have E >> > legacy versions but some of their other capabilities can only be H >> > considered very leading edge. Same goes for Solaris, HP-UX and yes, >> > OpenVMS as well.=3D20 >> >=20 < >> > OS popularity rises and falls. A few years ago, some=20 >> Customers believed B >> > Solaris was the way to go because that was what Oracle was=20
 >> saying and > >> > they invested lots of $'s to get their. Now these same=20 >> Cust's are being E >> > told by Oracle "no. no .. You should go to Linux..." - so should ? >> > Customers blindly follow again or should they think for=20  >> themselves and 1 >> > do whats right for their companies business?  >> >=20 C >> > Next time you meet an instructor like that point him to the=20  >> following? >> > testimonial benchmark article which just became available:  >>=20 E >> To what end?  He is not going to spend any time trying to convince E >> himself that he was wrong.  He is perfectly happy with his current E >> perception of the state of VMS.  Your employer needs to be the one " >> correcting this perception. =20 > J > That's crap - yes, an ISV has an obligation to promote its products, butC > if you believe in a product, then should you not also defend that 1 > product when someone is obviously spouting fud?   J Not if that time and that place are not proper for discussing the subject.G And, anyway, "believe"?  Do you think this is somehow a religion?  It's H business.  I don't "believe" in any business.  I have seen many things IH think should have stayed around go away.  The VAX, the PDP-11, Pr1me andH PRIMOS.  Nothing I could have done would have changed any of it.  VMS is in the same catagory.    > ' > In the meantime, another 20 future=20 H >> decision-makers will be leaving here in about 4 weeks with the notionD >> implanted in their heads that VMS is dead. (Realizing, of course,E >> that none of them have a clue what VMS is, but yi can imagine what @ >> their mindset will be if it ever comes up in a briefing.) =20 >>=20  > J > Again, I do not share your view that seasoned IT Pro's are sheep who can > not think for themselves.   G Once again, they are not "seasoned IT Pro's".  They are fledglings just I entering into the lower end of IT management.  Now is the time when their F minds need to be formed.  Their first taste of the VMS pie was bitter.D They wre told that VMS is never mentioned in current IT press.  TheyI will go out and see this is a fact (again, if they even remember the term H VMS in a week).  They will think for themselves.  They will see what theI instructor said re-inforced by personal experience and they will draw the I appropriqate conclusion.  HP can do something about his.  No one else can ' do that effectively.  Certainly, not I.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:09:55 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> Y Subject: Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to Integr B Message-ID: <1111777804.c13ec9d39e207cfab80f27042264fae0@teranews>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:I > Case in point - stand up in front of a bunch of Windows/Linux folks and I > say "Windows/Linux is history". Do you think those in the audience will E > wait for that respective vendor to correct that obviously incorrect  > statement?  > Ahh, and this is where there is a huge difference. There is noH credibility in any statements that Windows or Linux are toast.  There isA general public consensus that VMS is toast and dead and no longer B relevant to the IT industry. And thsi consensus is maintained veryF easily becayuse the vendor has never taken the easy steps to kill thisH misconception once and for all. Tackle the problem by the horns, not tryH some subtle message that just won't have sufficient media impact to make
 a difference.   F Making a press release that a new version of VMS has been released mayG allow HP to claim that it has done its bit in marketing VMS and telling E the world that VMS isn't dead, but everyone known that because VMS is E considered dead, the media won't make much of that press release.  HP G needs to buy advertising to bypass the windows/linux-biased journalists G and get the message directly to the people. Only when that happens will E the press start to take VMS more seriously, at which point, the press # releases may become more effective.   E And the same happens to VMS loyalists. Our attempts are not effective ( because of lack of public support by HP.  C Of all the companies, HP must know that VMS was severly hurt by the E stories of its death, since HP used to be a competitor and stole many H VMS customers because of that. Now that it owns VMS, it should also knowE that it needs to kill those stories once and for all and allow VMS to  compete and shine once again.   E > Ok, OpenVMS has a public roadmap on its web site. Can you provide a J > pointer that shows where the long term (even a few years) public roadmap! > is for Solaris, AIX or Windows?   H Well, that roadmap is a moving target that can no longer be trusted.  InF fairness, Longhorn is also a very moving roadmap. But VMS is behind inG many aspects, and for those aspects, it should be a firm commuitment to D bring VMS up to par, not a rolling roadmap that is adjusted wheneverH there are cuts in engineering or whatever reasons there are for dropping some items from the roadmap.  C Dropping the idea of some revolutionary file system for Longhorn is C understandable since nobody expects Microsoft to be able to develop A anything dramatically different by itself and since a totally new A revolutionary file system may be extremely difficult to write and # maintain application compatibility.   G But for VMS, a lot of the work is to play catch up with the rest of the G world, and those items are not revolutionary (ok, perhaps the "fork" is  hard to implement).              > G > Re: "How many of you are willing to claim that VMS will be around and  > supported in say 10 years?"  > I > I could say the same about Solaris, AIX or Windows. Heck, with mergers, H > buyouts, and government lawsuits, who knows what is going to happen in > 10 years?  > D > In reality, I expect all of these to be around and supported in 10J > years. I also expect both 32 bit and the more recent 64bit mainframes to' > also still be doing well in 10 years.  > 	 > Regards  >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant  > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660  > Fax: 613-591-4477  > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT)  > & > "OpenVMS has always had integrity ..  > Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:16:33 -0500 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> Y Subject: RE: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to Integr R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB5953BC@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: DeanW [mailto:dean.woodward@gmail.com]=20  > Sent: March 25, 2005 12:13 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com A > Subject: Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration=20 A > Software for Alpha to Integrity Servers to Integrity Servers=20  > to Integrity Servers >=204 > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 06:38:14 -0500, Main, Kerry=20 > <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote:H > > Well, perhaps I am getting to crusty in my passing years, but what I> > > tend to do now in places like this is that I would make=20 > statements like E > > "Every OS has its strengths and weaknesses. OpenVMS has security, B > > reliability and availability as strengths. Active-active 96=20
 > node (3,072 G > > cpu's) clustering up to 800km apart and dynamic sharing of CPU's in : > > different partitions on the same box are just a few=20 > examples. Windows @ > > has a better GUI environment and more commercially available > > applications." >=20G > Again, you've missed the point. Your statements do nothing to counter 4 > the point that the speaker believes VMS is "dead". >=20  # No, I have not missed the point.=20   B If person like this instructor is a confirmed Linux believer, thatC person will typically state "Solaris [HP-UX, AIX, mainframe etc] is G legacy - get with the program. Even Oracle is telling Customers to move 	 to Linux"   F If person like this instructor is a Windows believer, then .Net is the answer - what is the question?  E No amount of external marketing is going to change some peoples minds F that their Linux/Windows OS is not the answer to world hunger and thatG everything else will eventually go away as people "wake up" and see the $ benefits of "their chosen platform".  F At some point you have to recognize that dealing with some people likeF this instructor is like talking to teenagers i.e. you try to give themH advice and the benefit of your experience, but at some point you have to2 let them go and discover things for themselves.=20  E However, in a class room setting, if an instructor chooses to do some D personal soap boxing based on their own limited understanding of theA universe, then he/she is fair game to be challenged on it. And of A course, should have negative reviews submitted for unprofessional ' behaviour in  a class room environment.    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:48:04 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> Y Subject: Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to Integr B Message-ID: <1111787271.43d5357956d867fd916cd84cd2999089@teranews>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:H > If person like this instructor is a Windows believer, then .Net is the  > answer - what is the question?  E There is a big difference between suggesting WIndows as a solution to G solve all the world's problem, and going out of your way to declare VMS H dead when you could have simply avoided mentioning VMS, or just mentionsH VMS in passing along with other OS that you don't consider "key" because you are so focused on Windows.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:13:47 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Y Subject: Re: Announcing Availability of HP OpenVMS Migration Software for Alpha to Integr 0 Message-ID: <1149d7fgbsi38f1@corp.supernews.com>   Main, Kerry wrote:  G > However, in a class room setting, if an instructor chooses to do some F > personal soap boxing based on their own limited understanding of theC > universe, then he/she is fair game to be challenged on it. And of C > course, should have negative reviews submitted for unprofessional ) > behaviour in  a class room environment.   E Making a statement that "HP has just released version 8.2 of VMS for  C both Alpha and IA-64.  HP has a 5-year rolling roadmap for VMS.  I  D wouldn't call that dead." is about as far as you could go in such a H setting.  If the rest of the students already know this, then they will F realize the instructor isn't playing with a full deck.  If they don't 6 know this, who is at fault?  Where does the buck stop?  C Kerry, I know that you'd like to see marketing, but are stuck with  C what's shoved down your throat by HP.  Or lack thereof.  But don't  F expect an individual with nothing at stake to go out on a limb for HP.  G As for the instructor, many times a questioneer is issued to students.  I That instructor would get a real bad report from me.  If the powers that  A be choose to look at such, fine, and if not, they stand with the  ? instructor, and there isn't anything constructive you could do.   C All that said, HP could get VMS back into the IT press.  It's real  F simple.  Run the security/hacker challenge.  Just do it.  It would be E news, and it would be reported.  It's not the job of the press to do  F your marketing.  They report news.  So, give them news.  Money talks. F Put up a substantial reward.  Hell, even if someone has some success, H anyone with half a brain can spin it comparing the number of successes, F and time taken, compared to 'well known systems'.  Don't say windows. E People will know what you're talking about.  And even make a publicy  E stunt out of awarding the successful person a reward.  That's a news  I event.  It will be reported.  Just make sure the information of how much   harder it was gets notice.  I Think of it, daily press releases, detailing the attempts, the failures,  7 all the while slipping in the fact that not one of the  H virus/trojans/worms of the last 10 years would have been able to affect 
 a VMS system.   G Bump up the money each week, just like the PowerBall lottery.  Doesn't  F it get mention on the early evening news, that's prime time, when the  jackpot gets large?     All it takes is balls.  Got any?   Dave   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:31:45 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>/ Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium 2 Message-ID: <BGZ0e.2289$J12.1438@news.cpqcorp.net>   Rob Brooks wrote: $ > VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > 3 >>brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks) writes:  >>% >>>VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  >>> L >>>>So how are you supposed to use CLD symbol tables on Itanium?  The linker% >>>>balks at them when I try to link.  >>>>M >>>>%ILINK-W-RELODIFTYPE, relocation requests the linker to build a function   >>>>  descri >>>>        symbol: CMDTBLF >>>>        relocation section: .rela$CODE$ (section header entry: 37)8 >>>>        relocation type: RELA$K_R_IA_64_LTOFF_FPTR22  >>>>        relocation entry: 51 >>>>        module: CMD / >>>>        file: TOP$:[OBJ.IA64.V8_2]CMD.OBJ;2  >>> # >>>What's the definition of CMDTBL?  >  > O > Yeah, but how is it referenced in the calling program?  I seem to recall that M > the I64 linker is a bit more strict about certain attributes than the Alpha 	 > linker.  >    To elaborate a bit more...  G The CMD table built by CDU must be declared as external data from your  E calling program.  On Alpha, you can get away with declaring it as an  F external routine if all you did was take the address of the "routine" I and pass it into CLI$DCL_PARSE, etc.  However, on Itanium, the fact that  E the linker is much more involved with building function descriptors,  9 relocations,etc., it turns out you can't do that "trick".   D We saw it most often in Fortran where you would write something like   EXTERNAL CMDTBL   G and then use %LOC(CMDTBL) when you passed the address of the cmd table  I to the CLI$ routine.  The problem is that "EXTERNAL CMDTBL" is declaring  2 an external routine in Fortran, not external data.  @ You can fall into the same trap in C, BLISS, etc.  but in those B languages you tend to have to write more characters to declare an * external routine instead of external data.   --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:01:37 -0800 , From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com>/ Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium + Message-ID: <d21u7h$ojm$1@news01.intel.com>    John Reagan wrote:
 [big snip] > To elaborate a bit more... > I > The CMD table built by CDU must be declared as external data from your  G > calling program.  On Alpha, you can get away with declaring it as an  H > external routine if all you did was take the address of the "routine" K > and pass it into CLI$DCL_PARSE, etc.  However, on Itanium, the fact that  G > the linker is much more involved with building function descriptors,  ; > relocations,etc., it turns out you can't do that "trick".  > F > We saw it most often in Fortran where you would write something like >  > EXTERNAL CMDTBL  > I > and then use %LOC(CMDTBL) when you passed the address of the cmd table  K > to the CLI$ routine.  The problem is that "EXTERNAL CMDTBL" is declaring  4 > an external routine in Fortran, not external data. > B > You can fall into the same trap in C, BLISS, etc.  but in those D > languages you tend to have to write more characters to declare an , > external routine instead of external data.  E      Which begs the question, John, how _does_ one do this on IA64???a For Fortran, Bliss or C?  E      I have a bunch of Fortran code which uses the EXTERNAL TABLENAME @ syntax (and you don't need the %LOC in Fortran, IIRC).  Is thereA an additional LINK option or directive, etc.?  Or does the sourceb require changes?  
 	Regards, Kena -- r6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfieldt! D1C Automation VMS System Supportn" who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:28:41 GMTe" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG/ Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itaniumj0 Message-ID: <00A414E0.2B7D54E3@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <lhPBirN90sWC@cuebid.zko.dec.com>, brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks) writes:l# >VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:b4 >> brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks) writes:% >>>VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:cM >>>> So how are you supposed to use CLD symbol tables on Itanium?  The linkerc& >>>> balks at them when I try to link. >>>> aN >>>> %ILINK-W-RELODIFTYPE, relocation requests the linker to build a function 
 >>>>   descrie >>>>         symbol: CMDTBLlG >>>>         relocation section: .rela$CODE$ (section header entry: 37)a9 >>>>         relocation type: RELA$K_R_IA_64_LTOFF_FPTR22n! >>>>         relocation entry: 51  >>>>         module: CMD0 >>>>         file: TOP$:[OBJ.IA64.V8_2]CMD.OBJ;2 >>> # >>>What's the definition of CMDTBL?  >AN >Yeah, but how is it referenced in the calling program?  I seem to recall thatL >the I64 linker is a bit more strict about certain attributes than the Alpha >linker.  J Freakin' C shit... I played around with it all afternoon and finally found< a declaration that made the linker happy.  Loathesome lingo.  J I've had my head in ELF image layouts all day too trying to understand howJ to get at the image ident info in the .note section.  Finally happened up-H on NHDR$ defs in $ELFDEF which was hiding in STARLET and not in LIB likeK all of the VAX and Alpha image def files.  Sheesh, so much for consistency.>   --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            v5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" g   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:05:24 GMTo# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)i/ Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itaniumt1 Message-ID: <EW%0e.2311$Tm2.839@news.cpqcorp.net>e  S In article <00A414B5.06C91059@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:o  I :So how are you supposed to use CLD symbol tables on Itanium?  The linkero" :balks at them when I try to link.  H   A chunk of code around was playing fast-n-loose with the externals forC   command tables, and it got caught -- what was once an effectively E   identical external reference can now differ; routine references notIB   necessarily the same as structure references.  A bogus external E   reference to the command tables can lead to the CLI callback error:b  I     %CLI-E-INVTAB, command tables have invalid format - see documentationi  J   In some of the OpenVMS VAX and OpenVMS Alpha code I've seen, the commandJ   definition file reference was erroneously declared as a routine pointer,B   and the success of that syntax was actually somewhat of a fluke.  6   Here's what was used in some of the Bliss I've seen:       EXTERNAL ROUTINE cmdtbl;  :   and that should be coded (for all OpenVMS platforms) as:       EXTERNAL cmdtbl;  >   In C, something like the following should typically be used:       extern void *cmdtbl;  B   In Fortran, external is a routine declaration, and what you need@   here is an attributes extern and something like the following:                   integer cmdtbl%     cDEC$ attributes extern :: cmdtblo   	--e  C   As for C references for lib$table_parse state table and key tableeD   references, here is what I am using -- though the void shown aboveF   can and does also work -- to force the external reference processing   with C pragmas:    #pragma extern_model savee" #pragma extern_model strict_refdef9 extern unsigned int mumble$STATE_fratz, mumble$KEY_fratz;t #pragma extern_model restore     	--   B   And for C references for cli$dcl_parse, here is what I am using:     ..  extern void *mumble$$CLI_TABLES; ..  D   Do remember you need to use `&mumble$$CLI_TABLES' to reference theC   external symbol in the cli$dcl_parse call; you need to pass it bye   reference.     	--   <   Here are a couple of references to the error I've located:  8     http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizardi64/wizi64_0009.html?     http://h71000.www7.hp.com/DOC/82final/6673/6673pro_003.html:  #   The latter is the porting manual.M  2   I can probably dredge up a few other references.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faqeN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:21:30 GMTe& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>/ Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itaniuml1 Message-ID: <K901e.2313$Eq2.662@news.cpqcorp.net>(    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:   > L > I've had my head in ELF image layouts all day too trying to understand howL > to get at the image ident info in the .note section.  Finally happened up-J > on NHDR$ defs in $ELFDEF which was hiding in STARLET and not in LIB likeM > all of the VAX and Alpha image def files.  Sheesh, so much for consistency.O >   A Can't say what that happened other than a tip-o-the-hat to ELF's t+ standardization (whatever that is worth)???9  I By now, you know that fishing the image ident out of an ELF image is not oI for the faint of heart.  For the rest of the readers, the image ident is oI located at a somewhat fixed offset in the image header on Alpha and VAX. aG   On ELF, there is no such concept.  What ELF does provide is a "note" tG section that essentially allows any system to encode any sort of data. hI We use them in object files to hold the compiler name which compiled the iG module, the compilation date/time, etc.  Getting at them from inside a  @ program involves opening the file, finding the note section and I processing all the notes.  We are looking at adding some callable API in  ' a future release to make it all easier.-   -- - John Reagane/ HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leaderu Hewlett-Packard Companyc   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:32:49 GMT % From: Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net>1/ Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium22 Message-ID: <slrnd494jd.qt.rivie@Stench.no.domain>  3 On 2005-03-25, Hoff Hoffman <hoff@hp.nospam> wrote:-D >   In Fortran, external is a routine declaration, and what you needB >   here is an attributes extern and something like the following: >:  >                 integer cmdtbl' >     cDEC$ attributes extern :: cmdtblo  , Any clue whether/how this would differ from:   	integer,external:: cmdtbl  ? ? I.e., does the FORTRAN-95 external attribute differ from the FA DEC-specific one? I've been blithely assuming that this would be r equivalent to:   	integer cmdtbl> 	external cmdtbl  E (for the record, so far all the constructs I've seen like that so far H are referring to system services and/or run-time library routines; i.e.,B not to data. And, of course, in my own code I include ($syssrvnam)B rather than using this construct, but some of this code is really, really old)e -- A
 Roger Ivie rivie@ridgenet.net http://anachronda.webhop.org/8 -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- 
 Version: 3.12gH GCS/P d- s:+++ a+ C++ UB--(++++) !P L- !E W++ N++ o-- K w O- M+ V+++ PS+? PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X-- R tv++ b++ DI+++ D+ G e++ h--- r+++ z+++ h ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------y   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:43:05 GMT=% From: Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> / Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itaniumm2 Message-ID: <slrnd4956l.u3.rivie@Stench.no.domain>  5 On 2005-03-25, Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> wrote:D5 > On 2005-03-25, Hoff Hoffman <hoff@hp.nospam> wrote:eE >>   In Fortran, external is a routine declaration, and what you neednC >>   here is an attributes extern and something like the following:l >>! >>                 integer cmdtbl ( >>     cDEC$ attributes extern :: cmdtbl > . > Any clue whether/how this would differ from: >> > 	integer,external:: cmdtbl >aA > ? I.e., does the FORTRAN-95 external attribute differ from the  C > DEC-specific one? I've been blithely assuming that this would be d > equivalent to:  G OK, I've spent a few minutes with the manual and have a slightly betteriE feel for the difference. The language reference manual clearly states"D that EXTERNAL is for external functions, subroutines, and block data2 while the cDEC$ EXTERN attribute is only for data. --  
 Roger Ivie rivie@ridgenet.net http://anachronda.webhop.org/" -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----g
 Version: 3.12 H GCS/P d- s:+++ a+ C++ UB--(++++) !P L- !E W++ N++ o-- K w O- M+ V+++ PS+? PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X-- R tv++ b++ DI+++ D+ G e++ h--- r+++ z+++ i ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------t   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:42:11 GMTa" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG/ Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itaniums0 Message-ID: <00A414EA.6FDCB318@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Z In article <K901e.2313$Eq2.662@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:! >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:> >  >> oM >> I've had my head in ELF image layouts all day too trying to understand howhM >> to get at the image ident info in the .note section.  Finally happened up- K >> on NHDR$ defs in $ELFDEF which was hiding in STARLET and not in LIB likeeN >> all of the VAX and Alpha image def files.  Sheesh, so much for consistency. >> e >nB >Can't say what that happened other than a tip-o-the-hat to ELF's , >standardization (whatever that is worth)??? >tJ >By now, you know that fishing the image ident out of an ELF image is not J >for the faint of heart.  For the rest of the readers, the image ident is J >located at a somewhat fixed offset in the image header on Alpha and VAX.   J Yup.  I, for one, plan to down may Guinness this evening to ease the pain.    H >  On ELF, there is no such concept.  What ELF does provide is a "note" H >section that essentially allows any system to encode any sort of data. J >We use them in object files to hold the compiler name which compiled the H >module, the compilation date/time, etc.  Getting at them from inside a A >program involves opening the file, finding the note section and mJ >processing all the notes.  We are looking at adding some callable API in ( >a future release to make it all easier.  G This is such a commonplace thing that I'm surprised that you didn't addc this from the get-go.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs            a5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:08:57 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium.B Message-ID: <1111792120.c506d1f4f9c8e4c52e4df6029e463d5b@teranews>  G Pardon my ignorance here, but I do not understand why one would need tos1 use some "intel" format for an image file on VMS.M  * Doesn't VMS have its own image activator ?  F I can understand the requirement for the initial booting process beingF intimitely tied to the CPU architecture. But why would one need such a= radically different image file format for normal executables?s  H Or is it a case of VMS no longer really having its own linker and useing  an intel linker for VMS images ?  F I can understand the alpha image format being different from VAX sinceE it went from 32 to 64 bits and needed some identification as a nativesA alpha image. But why would an IA64 image file fomat need to be so' radically different ?s  E Isn't this image file format something which is very operating systemfF specific with the image activator pulling the right bits off the image files ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:20:53 -0500d' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> / Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium 0 Message-ID: <1149dkp67bs9h76@corp.supernews.com>   John Reagan wrote: > Rob Brooks wrote:a > % >> VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  >>5 >>> brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks) writes:t >>>o' >>>> VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:. >>>>H >>>>> So how are you supposed to use CLD symbol tables on Itanium?  The  >>>>> linker' >>>>> balks at them when I try to link.  >>>>>aF >>>>> %ILINK-W-RELODIFTYPE, relocation requests the linker to build a  >>>>> function  descri >>>>>        symbol: CMDTBL G >>>>>        relocation section: .rela$CODE$ (section header entry: 37)l9 >>>>>        relocation type: RELA$K_R_IA_64_LTOFF_FPTR22w! >>>>>        relocation entry: 51  >>>>>        module: CMD0 >>>>>        file: TOP$:[OBJ.IA64.V8_2]CMD.OBJ;2 >>>> >>>>% >>>> What's the definition of CMDTBL?e >> >> >>E >> Yeah, but how is it referenced in the calling program?  I seem to > >> recall thatI >> the I64 linker is a bit more strict about certain attributes than the u >> Alpha
 >> linker. >> >  > To elaborate a bit more... > I > The CMD table built by CDU must be declared as external data from your mG > calling program.  On Alpha, you can get away with declaring it as an  H > external routine if all you did was take the address of the "routine" K > and pass it into CLI$DCL_PARSE, etc.  However, on Itanium, the fact that iG > the linker is much more involved with building function descriptors,  ; > relocations,etc., it turns out you can't do that "trick".r > F > We saw it most often in Fortran where you would write something like >  > EXTERNAL CMDTBLb > I > and then use %LOC(CMDTBL) when you passed the address of the cmd table  K > to the CLI$ routine.  The problem is that "EXTERNAL CMDTBL" is declaring T4 > an external routine in Fortran, not external data. > B > You can fall into the same trap in C, BLISS, etc.  but in those D > languages you tend to have to write more characters to declare an , > external routine instead of external data. >   I You guys are talking about a specific capability here, but I'm wondering dG from the way this is sounding if it's a general issue.  There are many nG instances where you want to invoke a routine by passing the 'resolved' cE address of the routine.  One example is invoking a routine to run in iH Kernel mode by passing the address of the routine in the call of CMKRNL.  ; Is this the issue here?  If so, what's the workable method?d  G If this is a stupid question, sorry, I've never worked with CMDTBL and    didn't really follow the thread.   Dave   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 03:02:05 GMTe% From: Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> / Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itaniumy3 Message-ID: <slrnd49k5d.1ti.rivie@Stench.no.domain>o  = On 2005-03-25, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:uI > Pardon my ignorance here, but I do not understand why one would need too3 > use some "intel" format for an image file on VMS.m  ? Well, you need *some* sort of image format. And since there's aaG perfectly good image format already hanging around the Intel world, whyh not use it?h -- p
 Roger Ivie rivie@ridgenet.net http://anachronda.webhop.org/l -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----o
 Version: 3.12IH GCS/P d- s:+++ a+ C++ UB--(++++) !P L- !E W++ N++ o-- K w O- M+ V+++ PS+? PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X-- R tv++ b++ DI+++ D+ G e++ h--- r+++ z+++ y ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------B   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:44:05 -0500s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on ItaniummB Message-ID: <1111808636.f397343babf788f06cac834a99336530@teranews>   Roger Ivie wrote:>A > Well, you need *some* sort of image format. And since there's ahI > perfectly good image format already hanging around the Intel world, why 
 > not use it?e  E Isn't image file format more tied to the operating system than to thea CPU ?=  E There was a perfectly fine image file format on Alpha, why not re-use=C that one ? That would have provided compatibility with all sorts ofa6 utilities that made assumptions on image file formats.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2005 17:04:47 -0800- From: "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>t7 Subject: Free uVax/PDP-11 systems in Washington DC areagC Message-ID: <1111799087.475073.325400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>i  : Free in the Washington DC area, you pick up only, will not ship:   3 KA650-based uVax III in rack-mount BA213, with SCSIi6 controller, 9-track 1600/6250 drive, SCSI disk drives,' SCSI CD-ROM, all in H960 (6-foot) rack.   ; BA23 Q-bus system with 11/73 (KDJ11B) CPU, SCSI controller,t3 9-track 1600/6250 drive, SCSI disk drive, SCSI taper! drive, all in H960 (6-foot) rack.   7 Several DSD-440 dual 8" floppy systems and controllers.s  6 All the associated cables, power controllers, etc., to6 run the above systems.  A five-foot non-DEC rack. etc. Spare tape drive hardware.  9 First-come, first served.  SCSI controllers not available 6 separately.  You'll need a really big station wagon or) mini-van or small truck to fit the racks.a  : E-mail me at my regular address, shoppa@trailing-edge.com,7 if interested.  Stuff available for pick-up on eveningsv and this weekend.I   Tim.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Mar 2005 22:41:11 -0800 From: GooglePro1000@yahoo.come Subject: Great News Blog!iB Message-ID: <1111819271.033872.64920@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  8 http://www.newsblog2005.blogspot.com << Great News Blog!   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:42:53 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>v& Subject: New smart use of computer....B Message-ID: <1111797799.60624f208d078f5fdf833611066d46a8@teranews>  / http://bicillin.media.mit.edu/clocky/index.html   @ Worth a read. It is an alarm clock that jumps off your table andF repositiosn itself soemewhere in your bedroom after you've pressed theC snooze button. So when it sounds again, you really have to get up !e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:55:40 -0500s From: norm.raphael@metso.com( Subject: Question on DCL f<dollar>stringQ Message-ID: <OF3BD7D696.0E031E5C-ON85256FD0.001497BA-85256FD0.0015BF9B@metso.com>   + This is a multipart message in MIME format.." --=_alternative 0015BF9685256FD0_=, Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"  2 I found this in a DCL procedure (last is actually 4 calculated as a month-related single-digit integer):   $ last=2 $ last = f$string("0"'last') $ sho sym last
   LAST = "02"  $!===r Now I would have expected this:o   $ last=2 $ last="0''last'"| $ sho sym last
   LAST = "02"f $!===e or maybe this:   $ last=2 $ last = f$string("0''last'")  $ sho sym last $!  LAST = "02"> === ( but what exactly is the first one doing?, Is there any advantage or difference in the  result from them?@    4 $HELP LEXICALS  F$STRING    Argument      expression  :          The integer or string expression to be evaluated.  D          If you specify an integer expression, the F$STRING functionD          evaluates the expression, converts the resulting integer toB          a string, and returns the result. If you specify a stringG          expression, the F$STRING function evaluates the expression andb          returns the result.  F          When converting an integer to a string, the F$STRING functionB          uses decimal representation and omits leading zeros. WhenF          converting a negative integer, the F$STRING function places aJ          minus sign at the beginning string representation of the integer." --=_alternative 0015BF9685256FD0_=+ Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"a    F <br><font size=2><tt>I found this in a DCL procedure (last is actually </tt></font>U <br><font size=2><tt>calculated as a month-related single-digit integer):</tt></font>e <br>) <br><font size=2><tt>$ last=2</tt></font>tG <br><font size=2><tt>$ last = f$string(&quot;0&quot;'last')</tt></font> / <br><font size=2><tt>$ sho sym last</tt></font>u= <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; LAST = &quot;02&quot;</tt></font>p& <br><font size=2><tt>$!===</tt></font>@ <br><font size=2><tt>Now I would have expected this:</tt></font> <br>) <br><font size=2><tt>$ last=2</tt></font>p< <br><font size=2><tt>$ last=&quot;0''last'&quot;</tt></font>/ <br><font size=2><tt>$ sho sym last</tt></font>f= <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; LAST = &quot;02&quot;</tt></font> & <br><font size=2><tt>$!===</tt></font>/ <br><font size=2><tt>or maybe this:</tt></font>m <br>) <br><font size=2><tt>$ last=2</tt></font>eH <br><font size=2><tt>$ last = f$string(&quot;0''last'&quot;)</tt></font>/ <br><font size=2><tt>$ sho sym last</tt></font>h? <br><font size=2><tt>$! &nbsp;LAST = &quot;02&quot;</tt></font>a$ <br><font size=2><tt>===</tt></font>I <br><font size=2><tt>but what exactly is the first one doing?</tt></font>oM <br><font size=2><tt>Is there any advantage or difference in the </tt></font>c2 <br><font size=2><tt>result from them?</tt></font> <br> <br>H <br><font size=2><tt>$HELP LEXICALS &nbsp;F$STRING &nbsp; &nbsp;Argument* &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;expression</tt></font> <br>L <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The integer or string' expression to be evaluated.</tt></font>m <br>H <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you specify an5 integer expression, the F$STRING function</tt></font> P <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;evaluates the expression,- converts the resulting integer to</tt></font> L <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;a string, and returns/ the result. If you specify a string</tt></font>uF <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;expression, the: F$STRING function evaluates the expression and</tt></font>V <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;returns the result.</tt></font> <br>F <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;When converting9 an integer to a string, the F$STRING function</tt></font> R <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;uses decimal representation) and omits leading zeros. When</tt></font>oL <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;converting a negative3 integer, the F$STRING function places a</tt></font>tH <br><font size=2><tt>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;minus sign at the; beginning string representation of the integer.</tt></font>C$ --=_alternative 0015BF9685256FD0_=--   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:37:41 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)Y Subject: Re: TCPIP 5.4: obsolete information in HELP, what are new defaults (clusteraliasm$ Message-ID: <d21pa5$eoi$1@online.de>  9 In article <d21khv$jrd$1@news01.intel.com>, Ken FairfieldS! <my.full.name@intel.com> writes: g  * > > OK; the test I made was with 5.3.  :-| > ? >      I'm not sure what to make of your response.  The subjectm> > of this thread is "TCPIP 5.4 ...".  Now you're talking about > TCPIP 5.3. :-(  F I am running 5.3, planning to upgrade to 5.4 next week.  To avoid any H surprises, I checked out the new features on another system, already at G 5.4, I have access to.  I then tried out the ifconfig command on a 5.3 :G system, seeing that it displays the cluster address on the  node which  G currently has it.  Presumably, the output of ifconfig will be the same w9 on 5.4, after the upgrade, before I reconfigure anything.l  ; > I do see that 5.3 does NOT include the same output as 5.4a= > and is missing the "failSAFE" text, etc.  I also don't knowt? > how many alias addresses you need to support in your cluster.k= > For the simple case of one "cluster impersonator", it lookso= > like just counting the number of addresses assigned to each = > interface tells you whether that interface is servicing the @ > alias or not (IP address count > 1).  But if there are severalA > of these, you'd be back to hard-coding the various IP addressese > and searching for them.o  / At the moment, all I need is the cluster alias.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:56:05 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> > Subject: Re: TCPIP: why can an MX record not point to a CNAME?B Message-ID: <1111776982.f5cef0117f09c180b5d54cdd27cb6499@teranews>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:eC > So, again, what's the point of a backup-MX, as long as one is notp1 > offline for longer than the maximum retry time?a  F Say your's a large corporation with 3 main incoming SMTP servers, withH the first 2 configure to only accept 4 simultaneous calls. When 5th callE comes in, it fails, and the sender then tries the second server righthG away and succeeds. (Or consider cases where you take one server offlinei& for maintenance which may last hours).  ; Having 30 minute delays in email delivery is not desirable.o    H While VMS may have cluster aliases and stuff, the rest of the IP world'sF doesn't and they either play tricks with routers to do load balancing,B or use multiple MX records to ensure that if one connection fails, another host is attempted.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:57:34 -0500o( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Where's the base?= Message-ID: <0tidnXwehbwDUtnfRVn-vg@metrocastcablevision.com>T  = A discussion at RealWorldTech raised the following questions:y  H 1) what current VMS system revenue figures are (I'm afraid that lacking F any concrete support I find those which were recently suggested a bit I difficult to believe, at least if they supposedly have the same basis as V, the pre-Alphacide $4 billion annual figure),  B 2) what the current size of the base *really* is (rather than the D 411,000 figure which supposedly hasn't changed in the past 5 years),  D 3) what percentage of current VMS users will likely be migrating to E Itanic and in what time frame, vs. either sticking with VMS on Alpha hC until their systems rot out from under them or planning to move to eF another system platform (those who have not already done so - figures G there would be interesting as well) at the point where Alpha no longer r satisfies their needs, and  G 4) of those VMS users who have either already fled or otherwise do not rF plan to migrate to Itanic, what were/are their reasons (e.g., lack of H continuing HP support for Alpha, though that's claimed to be guaranteed > through 2011, lack of ISV support for Itanic, dissatisfaction  with/distrust of HP, etc.)?g  E HP commissioned a customer migration survey last August, and the VMS hH responses were:  9% planned to start migrating to Itanic within a year, G another 24% planned to start migrating within 2 years, yet another 15% sH planned to start migrating within 5 years, and the remaining 50% had no I plans to migrate at all (interestingly, the customer responses for HP-UX oF weren't all that different).  As soon as the story broke, the Interex G people clammed up tight (saying that further discussion of the results .B would not help them "work constructively with HP"), so additional G details have not (AFAIK) surfaced - and all we've got left is the kind wC of anecdotal information that surfaces in c.o.v. from time to time.h  C I was asked if I'd try to gather up those anecdotes (plus anything nI solider that might be available) to try to form as good a picture of the tE situation as we can develop.  I'm not about to take the time to sift ,C through the past 4 years' worth of posts, but if anyone happens to oH remember details about who has left already, why they did so, who plans G to leave/stick with Alpha/migrate to Itanic and why, if they'd like to  E email me privately I'll keep the contact confidential, try to see if eD patterns exist, and in any event report something back here:  it'll E still be anecdotal, but that's HP's fault for not providing anything oB more substantial - and while anecdotes may not have the weight of E exhaustive and carefully-controlled surveys, they're still a form of r	 evidence.l  F (Anyone who would prefer instead to post any such information in this G thread so that everyone can take a look at it is more than welcome to, nD and I'll be happy to gather things up from that source as well.  If E someone who's active at OpenVMS.org would like to organize a similar f> effort there, I'll be happy to consolidate results with them.)   - bill   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.169 ************************ress releases, detailing the attempts,ched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel encaped packet< Mar 21 13:21:30: IPSEC(crypto_engine_post_encrypt_cef_les): & CEF-les switched tunnel en