1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 28 Mar 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 174       Contents: Re: /include/nocopy G Re: about .Note section of ELF; was: CLD symbol table object on Itanium  AlphaStation 200 power usage& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium& Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium5 Re: DS15 RADEON 7500 hang solved (at least partially) 5 Re: DS15 RADEON 7500 hang solved (at least partially) ! Re: New smart use of computer.... P OpenVMS.org Editor to present "Safe Computing in the Age of Ubiquitous Connectiv# Re: Question on DCL f<dollar>string # Re: Question on DCL f<dollar>string # Re: Question on DCL f<dollar>string  Re: reading RS232 port Re: shadow minicopy 3 Re: Status bits for OFFLINE and MntVerifyTimeout ??  Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents Re: VMS Torrents  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:19:38 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: /include/nocopy$ Message-ID: <d28lnp$lkm$1@online.de>  9 In article <d27uvn$gaj$1@news01.intel.com>, Ken Fairfield ! <my.full.name@intel.com> writes:    9 > As to some other comments, yes, the /NoCopy is the most ; > important item here.  Since /NoInclude is the default, in = > order to get all members mounted while specifying only one,  > you need the /Include. > C >     AEF implies that /NoAssist with all members specified has the B > same effect as specifying single member with /Include.  That may= > well be the case, but I can't couch for it since I've never  > tested it.  E I use /NOASSIST.  I THINK it is the same as /INCLUDE with one member  H specified, i.e. it will mount what it can find and not ask the operator E about missing volumes.  However, it is good for the documentation to  * list all the members in the MOUNT command.  F As you point out, the important thing is /NOCOPY.  From your posts on I this in the past, I and probably other people have gotten the impression  . that /INCLUDE is the more important qualifier.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:12:26 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>P Subject: Re: about .Note section of ELF; was: CLD symbol table object on Itanium2 Message-ID: <u9V1e.2346$%V5.1044@news.cpqcorp.net>    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:U > In article <00A414EB.33E2FF98@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  >  >>G >>It appears from the images that I've examined that the .Note section  G >>falls on a block boundary.  Is this just a figment of the images that : >>I have empirically examined or is this always the case?  >  > I > HAPPY EASTER!  It does appear to be that the .Note section always falls I > on a block boundary.  I've successfully coded my little project and can I > now extract the image idents from all of the images activated to run my 0 > image (ie. the list off of IAC$GL_IMAGE_LIST). > I > Break out the Guinness ice cream and the hard boiled eggs; it's time to ; > celebrate.  This Itanium stuff isn't so bad... just ugly.   F In object files, sections only need be aligned based on the contents. F If the section contained only longwords, it need be only aligned on a # longword boundary in the .OBJ file.   2 In image files, segments have the same definition.  G So from the ELF spec point of view, you can't rely on block alignment.  G However, from an implementation point of view, the linker may actually  C align the segments to block boundaries.  I'll double check for you.        --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2005 09:14:54 -0800 From: jordan@ccs4vms.com% Subject: AlphaStation 200 power usage C Message-ID: <1112030094.226078.322190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   F Finally had time to start moving my kill-a-watt meter around.  This is) just an FYI in case anyone is interested.   9 AS200 4/233 (upgraded from a 4/166 using a Cabriolet CPU)  DE500-BA ethernet 
 ZLXp-E2 video  IBM 9GB 7200RPM SCSI disk 	 384MB RAM   F The attached Nokia 447W monitor draws 80 to 88 watts depending on whatG is being displayed; that seems rather hefty for a 17" monitor but it is  an old one.     Maximum draw (powerup) 139 watts% Steady state draw, at idle  116 watts   G Compare that to the AS600 5/333 running my website using 245/225 watts. B  I'm considering moving to the AS200 to save some power as long asE Apache/PHP performance is adequate on the slower box (no MySQL in use  though).  D Coming soon if I get the time: ratings for a VS3100-30, and maybe anE MV3100-30 and a DS10 if I can sneak in a reboot to plug in the meter. < Fun stuff.  Takes my mind off the peecee crap for a while :)   Rich   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2005 07:27:48 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium 3 Message-ID: <HL2JxskQSJYr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <slrnd494jd.qt.rivie@Stench.no.domain>, Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> writes: >  > 	integer cmdtbl  > 	external cmdtbl  C    That declares an external integer function, not external integer ,    data which is what's needed in this case.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2005 07:33:04 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium 3 Message-ID: <SBLTIwK$wKZ7@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <1111792120.c506d1f4f9c8e4c52e4df6029e463d5b@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:I > Pardon my ignorance here, but I do not understand why one would need to 3 > use some "intel" format for an image file on VMS.  >   F    You don't.  I don't know of any technical reason why the object andE    image formats used for VAX and expanded for Alpha couldn't be used     for IA64.  G    But there are lots of tools written around the common elf and dwarf  J    formats (more gnu or UNIX heritage than Intel, I think).  The decision J    was made that these formats would be used on the IA64 in order to make '    those tools readily portable to VMS.   H    So gcc, and common gnu analysis tools, will nore readily port to VMS >    I64 than they did (or were never done) to VAX or Alpha VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:48:39 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: CLD symbol table object on Itanium B Message-ID: <1112035728.884d226246c0e2c2a62c2b9af76660ba@teranews>   John Reagan wrote:F > Inventing yet other format without any good reason would just create! > more work in the various tools.   J Yes, but compared to re-using the existing tools that existed on VMS ?????  G How can there be much shared code between alpha and IA64 when the whole E image activator is comletely different ? Does this ELF thing cater to G all of the VMS image format needs, shareable images tec, or did the VMS = group have to squeeze blood out of a rock to get it running ?    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2005 06:28:14 -0800# From: "Galen" <gltackett@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: DS15 RADEON 7500 hang solved (at least partially)C Message-ID: <1112020094.686541.276660@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Fred,   F Thanks for this insight into issues that I've come across with both of these devices.  @ I'm currently having trouble with a DS10/Radeon 7500 combinationC running V7.3-2 Update 3 that keeps locking up tight enough that the F halt button doesn't work. I wonder of some of glitches currently beingE worked might be involved. (I'm not actually using 3d but need to make  sure the license isn't there.)  6 Looking forward to whatever patches eventually emerge,   -- Galen      FredK wrote: >  > Apples, pears, and oranges.  > E > The ELSA Gloria DDX started life as a hastly written, poor quality, $ > low performance piece of "code"... > A > The Radeon 7500 code started life as the xFree86 code (you know  > where this is headed)...   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:50:40 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>> Subject: Re: DS15 RADEON 7500 hang solved (at least partially)2 Message-ID: <kJV1e.2352$xK5.1417@news.cpqcorp.net>  . "Galen" <gltackett@gmail.com> wrote in message= news:1112020094.686541.276660@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...    > B > I'm currently having trouble with a DS10/Radeon 7500 combinationE > running V7.3-2 Update 3 that keeps locking up tight enough that the H > halt button doesn't work. I wonder of some of glitches currently beingG > worked might be involved. (I'm not actually using 3d but need to make   > sure the license isn't there.) >   J When the system locks up like that, it is likely that something has wedgedG on the PCI bus.  Since some of the problems are bus interaction issues, 4 you might try changing the slot that the card is in.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2005 07:37:26 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) * Subject: Re: New smart use of computer....3 Message-ID: <RIUHdzhRBwCj@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <1111797799.60624f208d078f5fdf833611066d46a8@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:1 > http://bicillin.media.mit.edu/clocky/index.html  > B > Worth a read. It is an alarm clock that jumps off your table andH > repositiosn itself soemewhere in your bedroom after you've pressed theE > snooze button. So when it sounds again, you really have to get up !   %    Is it guarranteed for 10000 jumps?    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2005 09:02:58 -0800) From: "Bob Gezelter" <gezelter@rlgsc.com> Y Subject: OpenVMS.org Editor to present "Safe Computing in the Age of Ubiquitous Connectiv C Message-ID: <1112029378.197120.266450@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F Robert Gezelter, CSA, CSE, CDP, a Contributing Editor for OpenVMS.org,F will present "Safe Computing in the Age of Ubiquitous Connectivity" onE Friday, April 1, 2005 in Binghamton, New York and Wednesday, April 6,  2005 in New York City.  G Mr. Gezelter will speak on the technical and management issues that are D brought to the fore by the increasing availability of communicationsC connectivity. He will address the use of wired and wireless network A access both within the organization and through the use of public  access points.  3 These presentations are open to the general public.   D The full abstract and location of this presentation can be found at:> http://www.rlgsc.com/ieee/Binghamton/2005-04/announce.html and< http://www.rlgsc.com/ieee/MetroNewYork/2005-04/announce.html  F This presentation is made possible by the support of the IEEE Computer* Society's Distinguished Visitor's Program.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:32:51 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>, Subject: Re: Question on DCL f<dollar>string2 Message-ID: <d28j07$9q3$1@news3.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>   norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:  >  > ; > Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote on 03/26/2005 07:35:20 PM:  > " >  > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: >  > >L >  > > All responses so far add nicely to the literature and I found them at >  > > worst interesting, ; >  > > but they do not answer my questions about f$integer, 7 >  > > just in case someone would like to address them.  >  > > >  >4 >  > I suppose you mean f$string, and not f$integer. > 1 > Yes, I did.  Appologies for getting that worgn.  > M > As I suspected and you have confirmed, the original coder either simply got I > lucky or meant to use f$string [got it right that time] another way and I > messed up but got the desired result anyway.  I'm going to change it to E > one of the suggested simpler-to-parse-for-the-next-person versions.  > Thanks to you all. > C > By the way, if I use the string "02" and F$Fao("!2ZL", then I get  > 
 > $ last="02"  > $ last =  F$Fao("!2ZL",last) > $ sho sym last >   LAST = "**"   P This makes sense, since "02" (in ascii) is a 16 bit value, and its binary value  is much more than 99.    >  > and if > $ last = 2 > $ last =  F$Fao("!AS",last) > > %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual  > address=000000000003( > 8248, PC=0000000000110001, PS=7FFABF90 > $  > K > which I know is feeding it an integer and telling it to display an ASCII   > string > but is an ACCVIO here a bug? > O Depends how you look at it. Maybe they could give a nice error if you feed the  P argument with the wrong kind of data, but that would not change anything to the   fact that the argument is wrong.   >  >  >F >  > The answer is that F$String doesn't do anything in this example. 
 > F$String is H >  > suppose to convert numeric expressions to ASCII strings, however in >  > this piece M >  > of coding there is only ASCII as input. The last symbol has already been I >  > translated to ASCII before F$String can convert it. So F$String only  >  > gets ASCII F >  > as input, and doesn't do any conversion or anything else. In fact >  > because thereE >  > is ASCII in the argument, F$String will never do any conversion.  >  > >  > Look at this example: >  > >  > $ last = "last"! >  > $ last = F$String("0"'last')  >  > $ sho symbol last >  >    LAST = "0LAST" >  > $ >  >B >  > You can get the same result by omitting the F$String lexical: >  > >  > $ last = "last" >  > $ last = "0"'last'  >  > $ sho symb last >  >    LAST = "0LAST" >  > $ >  >? >  > This would have been correct coding, although a bit silly:  >  >
 >  > $ last=2 " >  > $ last = "0" + F$String(last) >  > $ sho symbol last >  >    LAST = "02"  >  > $ >  >+ >  > You can get the same result with this:  >  > >  > $ last = 2  >  > $ last = "0" + "''last'"  >  > $ sho symbol last >  >    LAST = "02"  >  > $ >  > >  > Or with your example: >  > >  > $ last = 2  >  > $ last = "0''last'" >  > $ sho symbol last >  >    LAST = "02"  >  > $ >  >, >  > This is what F$String is suppose to do: >  > >  > $ first = 1 >  > $ last = 1 * >  > $ last = "0" + F$String(first + last) >  > $ sho symbol last >  >    LAST = "02"  >  > $ >  > >  > Or even better this:  >  > >  > $ first = 1 >  > $ last = 10* >  > $ last = "0" + F$String(first - last) >  > $ sho symbol last >  >    LAST = "0-9" >  > $ >  >   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:48:06 -0500  From: norm.raphael@metso.com, Subject: Re: Question on DCL f<dollar>stringQ Message-ID: <OFC7C0843E.20FAC219-ON85256FD2.0061FD1A-85256FD2.00623305@metso.com>   9 Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote on 03/28/2005 04:32:51 AM:    > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:  > >  [snip] > > 
 > > and if > > $ last = 2 > > $ last =  F$Fao("!AS",last) ? > > %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual  > > address=000000000003* > > 8248, PC=0000000000110001, PS=7FFABF90 > > $  > > F > > which I know is feeding it an integer and telling it to display an ASCII 
 > > string  > > but is an ACCVIO here a bug? > > C > Depends how you look at it. Maybe they could give a nice error if  > you feed theA > argument with the wrong kind of data, but that would not change  > anything to the " > fact that the argument is wrong. > I Noted, but professionally speaking, I do not consider it good practice to H generate ACCVIO errors at this level.  That said, I subscribe completely= to the notion that there are more valuable things to work on.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:39:46 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> , Subject: Re: Question on DCL f<dollar>stringB Message-ID: <1112035193.eadd2f6efe0a8d26a5c9f8597f8888e0@teranews>   > > $ last = 2 > > $ last =  F$Fao("!AS",last) ? > > %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual  > > address=000000000003* > > 8248, PC=0000000000110001, PS=7FFABF90  E My guess is that !AS expects the argument to be a pointer to a string C descriptor, but you are feeding it the value of 2, and your program ? doesn't have read access to memory location at address 00000002   F What I find odd is that it is compaining about address 0000000003   ! D The first two bytes of the descriptor , bytes at location 2 and 3 inF this case represent a short (dsc$w_length). So why try to access it at location 3 ?  C Or is it a case that location 2 is actually readable, but 3 isn't ?      On a VAX (VMS 7.2), I get:
 $ last = 2 $ last = f$fao("!AS",last); %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual  address=00038248, PC =00110001, PSL=7FFEC931   5 Why am I getting a totally "random" virtual address ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:37:10 -0800 * From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com> Subject: Re: reading RS232 port 2 Message-ID: <x8OdnQWRsNI6udXfRVn-oQ@mpowercom.net>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  < news:1111956645.c1362b82ea3378c1045a400bb6b79e0d@teranews...L >> If your serial port is on a DECserver be aware you must write to the portH >> before you can read from it.  Be sure to send out a NUL or some other >> character first.  > H  > Does this apply to application ports , or just to scenarios where theF > application connects to the decserver port instead of the opposite ? > F I encountered the problem with application ports, outgoing connection I initiated from VMS for timeclock polling.  How does a program initiate a  K connect to a DECserver port if it's not set up in app mode (aside from the  5 trivial case of a printer, which is outgoing anyway)?    Jack Peacock     ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2005 08:17:20 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: shadow minicopyC Message-ID: <1112026640.031277.289560@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Tom Linden wrote:  [...] G > which may predate the appearance of minicopy.  I couldn't find in the  docs, = > but isn't /NOCOPY exclusive with /POLICY=MINICOPY=OPTIONAL?     ? I don't see why it would be. The /NOCOPY qualifier means to add G specified members to the specified shadow set only if no copy operation G is required. The MINICOPY applies to copies that might be needed later.   @ So I would think that /NOCOPY applies only at the time the MOUNTE command is executed but the /POLICY applies for future changes to the C shadow set. For example, if a disk goes offline for a brief period.     F > Finally, since these sets are mounted on all the nodes, I guess they haveA > to be dismounted first from all and then mount with minicopy to  create0 > the bit maps, one at a time.  Is that correct?    6 Don't know. Isn't this in the volume shadowing manual?     JMHO   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Mar 2005 23:37:23 -0800# From: "Shankar" <passhan@gmail.com> < Subject: Re: Status bits for OFFLINE and MntVerifyTimeout ??C Message-ID: <1111995443.757988.218070@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   " Thanks to all those who responded.   Regards, Shankar    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:55:05 +0200 , From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.dotweg@zonnet.nl> Subject: Re: VMS Torrents , Message-ID: <3aq6agF56ekd2U1@individual.net>  < "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> schreef in bericht- news:mfmA+IHuZLxM@eisner.encompasserve.org... ; > In article <3aolhfF6cnappU1@individual.net>, "Hans Vlems" ! <hvlems.dotweg@zonnet.nl> writes:  > > 6 > > "issinoho" <issinoho@gmail.com> schreef in bericht/ > > news:1111951832.2277.0@ersa.uk.clara.net...  > L > >> How would HP react to such a system? I'd be grateful for informed input > >> on this matter. > > L > > HP has been ignoring VMS since it acquired the product, so my best guess is > > thatG > > a public server wouldn't bother them. I wouldn't mind running a VMS  server > > withI > > CONDIST and FREEWARE CD's. The trouble is that my own sets are pretty L > > ancient as well. Assuming of course that HP follows DEC's practice since VMS 	 > > V5.0, D > > i.e. if you've got the license then the kit is freely available. > & > No, that is only true for hobbyists. > G > Or do you know of some new HP pronouncement that commercial customers  > are allowed to copy kits ?  L Most, if not all, commercial customers own more systems than kits. And those kits get copied.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:06:46 +0100 # From: issinoho <issinoho@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: VMS Torrents 5 Message-ID: <1112008014.94731.0@demeter.uk.clara.net>   F Let me put this another way... if I set up a tracker would (a) anyone H out there be prepared to actively participate, and (b) find the service  useful?   D Lets face it we could end up with a pretty extensive archive of DEC L software - available for instant download - now wouldn't that be attractive?   issinoho wrote:  > Just a thought...  > J > If one was to establish a BitTorrent tracker whereby VMS software could > > be exchanged would this constitute anything naughty/illegal? > D > Hobbyists have the devils job getting hold of CONDIST versions of J > software which they are entitled to use by ownership of the appropriate K > PAK, not to mention upgrades to VMS itself; it makes sense that our more  I > fortunate colleagues who have access to past & present versions of the  + > software make them available for sharing.  > J > If I'm shot down in flames for this then fair enough, however I for one @ > would be happy to be involved in the hosting & infrastructure K > arrangements. Perhaps a small Paypal based contribution from subscribers    > could fund any hosting issues. > J > How would HP react to such a system? I'd be grateful for informed input  > on this matter.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:15:22 +0200 , From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.dotweg@zonnet.nl> Subject: Re: VMS Torrents , Message-ID: <3aqb11F6caeosU1@individual.net>  6 I'd support the idea, but others have different ideas.; Larry may have a point and I'm not looking for trouble with  HP's corporate lawyers.   2 "issinoho" <issinoho@gmail.com> schreef in bericht/ news:1112008014.94731.0@demeter.uk.clara.net... G > Let me put this another way... if I set up a tracker would (a) anyone I > out there be prepared to actively participate, and (b) find the service 	 > useful?  > E > Lets face it we could end up with a pretty extensive archive of DEC B > software - available for instant download - now wouldn't that be attractive?  >  > issinoho wrote:  > > Just a thought...  > > K > > If one was to establish a BitTorrent tracker whereby VMS software could @ > > be exchanged would this constitute anything naughty/illegal? > > E > > Hobbyists have the devils job getting hold of CONDIST versions of K > > software which they are entitled to use by ownership of the appropriate L > > PAK, not to mention upgrades to VMS itself; it makes sense that our moreJ > > fortunate colleagues who have access to past & present versions of the- > > software make them available for sharing.  > > K > > If I'm shot down in flames for this then fair enough, however I for one A > > would be happy to be involved in the hosting & infrastructure L > > arrangements. Perhaps a small Paypal based contribution from subscribers" > > could fund any hosting issues. > > K > > How would HP react to such a system? I'd be grateful for informed input  > > on this matter.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:21:32 +0100 # From: issinoho <issinoho@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: VMS Torrents ; Message-ID: <1112012489.10011.0@nnrp-t71-02.news.clara.net>    Paul Sture wrote:  > Hans Vlems wrote:  > ? >> "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> schreef in bericht 0 >> news:mfmA+IHuZLxM@eisner.encompasserve.org... >>= >>> In article <3aolhfF6cnappU1@individual.net>, "Hans Vlems"  >> >>$ >> <hvlems.dotweg@zonnet.nl> writes: >>7 >>>> "issinoho" <issinoho@gmail.com> schreef in bericht 0 >>>> news:1111951832.2277.0@ersa.uk.clara.net... >>>  >>> H >>>>> How would HP react to such a system? I'd be grateful for informed  >>>>> input  >>>>> on this matter.  >>>> >>>>H >>>> HP has been ignoring VMS since it acquired the product, so my best 
 >>>> guess >> >> >> is  >>	 >>>> that H >>>> a public server wouldn't bother them. I wouldn't mind running a VMS >> >>	 >> server  >>	 >>>> with J >>>> CONDIST and FREEWARE CD's. The trouble is that my own sets are prettyH >>>> ancient as well. Assuming of course that HP follows DEC's practice 
 >>>> since >> >> >> VMS >>
 >>>> V5.0,E >>>> i.e. if you've got the license then the kit is freely available.  >>>  >>> ( >>> No, that is only true for hobbyists. >>> I >>> Or do you know of some new HP pronouncement that commercial customers  >>> are allowed to copy kits ? >> >> >>J >> Most, if not all, commercial customers own more systems than kits. And  >> those >> kits get copied.  >> > H > Yes, but they will have paid for a least one CONDIST set, and perhaps I > more importantly, for the support/appropriate license(s) allowing them  
 > to upgrade.   I But surely the possession of the relevant PAK (hobbyist or otherwise) is  5 the arbiter of entitlement to run a software package?   H Can someone (HP?) give us a definitive answer on the legalities of this 
 situation.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:44:48 +0200 & From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch> Subject: Re: VMS Torrents , Message-ID: <3aqci0F6b2ipjU1@individual.net>   issinoho wrote:    > Paul Sture wrote:  >  >> Hans Vlems wrote: >>@ >>> "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> schreef in bericht1 >>> news:mfmA+IHuZLxM@eisner.encompasserve.org...  >>> > >>>> In article <3aolhfF6cnappU1@individual.net>, "Hans Vlems" >>>  >>>  >>> % >>> <hvlems.dotweg@zonnet.nl> writes:  >>> 8 >>>>> "issinoho" <issinoho@gmail.com> schreef in bericht1 >>>>> news:1111951832.2277.0@ersa.uk.clara.net...  >>>> >>>> >>>>I >>>>>> How would HP react to such a system? I'd be grateful for informed   >>>>>> input >>>>>> on this matter. >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>> I >>>>> HP has been ignoring VMS since it acquired the product, so my best   >>>>> guess  >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> is >>> 
 >>>>> thatI >>>>> a public server wouldn't bother them. I wouldn't mind running a VMS  >>>  >>>  >>> 
 >>> server >>> 
 >>>>> withK >>>>> CONDIST and FREEWARE CD's. The trouble is that my own sets are pretty I >>>>> ancient as well. Assuming of course that HP follows DEC's practice   >>>>> since  >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> VMS  >>>  >>>>> V5.0, F >>>>> i.e. if you've got the license then the kit is freely available. >>>> >>>> >>>>) >>>> No, that is only true for hobbyists.  >>>>J >>>> Or do you know of some new HP pronouncement that commercial customers >>>> are allowed to copy kits ?  >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> G >>> Most, if not all, commercial customers own more systems than kits.  
 >>> And those  >>> kits get copied. >>>  >>I >> Yes, but they will have paid for a least one CONDIST set, and perhaps  J >> more importantly, for the support/appropriate license(s) allowing them  >> to upgrade. >  > K > But surely the possession of the relevant PAK (hobbyist or otherwise) is  7 > the arbiter of entitlement to run a software package?  >   I And that is how Process Software do it for the Multinet/TCPware Hobbyist  	 licenses.    From:   , http://www.multinet.process.com/license.html  D "You must have a valid VMS license PAK from the Hobbyist program in = order to receive a Hobbyist license for MultiNet or TCPware."   J > Can someone (HP?) give us a definitive answer on the legalities of this  > situation.  " That's the real answer, of course.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:04:03 +0100 < From: "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> Subject: Re: VMS Torrents 5 Message-ID: <424800c4$0$8744$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>   4 "Paul Sture" <paul.sture@decus.ch> wrote in message & news:3aq879F6c1aceU1@individual.net... > Hans Vlems wrote: ? >> "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> schreef in bericht 0 >> news:mfmA+IHuZLxM@eisner.encompasserve.org...< >>>In article <3aolhfF6cnappU1@individual.net>, "Hans Vlems"$ >> <hvlems.dotweg@zonnet.nl> writes:6 >>>>"issinoho" <issinoho@gmail.com> schreef in bericht/ >>>>news:1111951832.2277.0@ersa.uk.clara.net... L >>>>>How would HP react to such a system? I'd be grateful for informed input >>>>>on this matter.L >>>>HP has been ignoring VMS since it acquired the product, so my best guess >> is  >>>>thatG >>>>a public server wouldn't bother them. I wouldn't mind running a VMS 	 >> server  >>>>withI >>>>CONDIST and FREEWARE CD's. The trouble is that my own sets are pretty L >>>>ancient as well. Assuming of course that HP follows DEC's practice since >>>> VMS V5.0,D >>>>i.e. if you've got the license then the kit is freely available.' >>>No, that is only true for hobbyists.  >>> H >>>Or do you know of some new HP pronouncement that commercial customers >>>are allowed to copy kits ?  >> >>J >> Most, if not all, commercial customers own more systems than kits. And  >> those >> kits get copied.  >> > M > Yes, but they will have paid for a least one CONDIST set, and perhaps more  G > importantly, for the support/appropriate license(s) allowing them to  
 > upgrade.  L Larry and Paul are correct, commercial customers pay for CONDISTs, and have M each of the layered products they are using on support, this entitles you to  $ the RTU (Right to use) new versions.  K Also with your CONDIST you get the password for the current quarter to use  M HP's (outsourced) download site (http://www1.sqp.com/). That is the official   download site.  H I doubt HP would not have it password protected, if they were happy for  anyone to distribute the kits.  M I would suggest the correct path would be to ask HP to provide the passwords   to hobbyist users.   Alex     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:42:59 +0100 # From: issinoho <issinoho@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: VMS Torrents 5 Message-ID: <1112017368.99485.0@despina.uk.clara.net>    Alex Daniels wrote: 6 > "Paul Sture" <paul.sture@decus.ch> wrote in message ( > news:3aq879F6c1aceU1@individual.net... >  >>Hans Vlems wrote:  >>? >>>"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> schreef in bericht 0 >>>news:mfmA+IHuZLxM@eisner.encompasserve.org... >>> = >>>>In article <3aolhfF6cnappU1@individual.net>, "Hans Vlems"  >>> $ >>><hvlems.dotweg@zonnet.nl> writes: >>> 7 >>>>>"issinoho" <issinoho@gmail.com> schreef in bericht 0 >>>>>news:1111951832.2277.0@ersa.uk.clara.net... >>>>> M >>>>>>How would HP react to such a system? I'd be grateful for informed input  >>>>>>on this matter.  >>>>> M >>>>>HP has been ignoring VMS since it acquired the product, so my best guess  >>>  >>>is  >>> 	 >>>>>that H >>>>>a public server wouldn't bother them. I wouldn't mind running a VMS >>> 	 >>>server  >>> 	 >>>>>with J >>>>>CONDIST and FREEWARE CD's. The trouble is that my own sets are prettyM >>>>>ancient as well. Assuming of course that HP follows DEC's practice since  >>>>>VMS V5.0,E >>>>>i.e. if you've got the license then the kit is freely available.  >>>>( >>>>No, that is only true for hobbyists. >>>>I >>>>Or do you know of some new HP pronouncement that commercial customers  >>>>are allowed to copy kits ? >>>  >>> J >>>Most, if not all, commercial customers own more systems than kits. And  >>>those >>>kits get copied.  >>>  >>M >>Yes, but they will have paid for a least one CONDIST set, and perhaps more  G >>importantly, for the support/appropriate license(s) allowing them to  
 >>upgrade. >  > N > Larry and Paul are correct, commercial customers pay for CONDISTs, and have O > each of the layered products they are using on support, this entitles you to  & > the RTU (Right to use) new versions. > M > Also with your CONDIST you get the password for the current quarter to use  O > HP's (outsourced) download site (http://www1.sqp.com/). That is the official   > download site. > J > I doubt HP would not have it password protected, if they were happy for   > anyone to distribute the kits. > O > I would suggest the correct path would be to ask HP to provide the passwords   > to hobbyist users. >  > Alex   >  >   I Interesting - I wasn't aware that this service was offered. Do they only  D offer current versions or are older versions archived and available.  F Other hobbyists out there - what say you? Should HP give us access to J this service or do we pursue the p2p approach and share amongst ourselves?  H Just for the record, there seems to be a certain aloofness displayed on D this group by some towards us mere hobbyists - can't quite see why, 3 surely we're all here for the same reason. *shrugs*l   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:53:08 -0500y6 From: Brad Hamilton <brMadAhaPmiSlton@coMmcAasPt.Snet> Subject: Re: VMS Torrents 0 Message-ID: <FqidnTtP7ejYkdXfRVn-ug@comcast.com>   issinoho wrote:r <snip>K > Interesting - I wasn't aware that this service was offered. Do they only bF > offer current versions or are older versions archived and available. >   I When I had access to the service, it was for layered products, and there oG were some archived LP's available.  Perhaps it has expanded since then.t  H > Other hobbyists out there - what say you? Should HP give us access to L > this service or do we pursue the p2p approach and share amongst ourselves? >   I It wouldn't hurt to ask - can anyone from HP who lurks here tell us whom - to contact?-  J > Just for the record, there seems to be a certain aloofness displayed on F > this group by some towards us mere hobbyists - can't quite see why, 5 > surely we're all here for the same reason. *shrugs*   G _I_ don't sense aloofness - merely an attempt to help protect HP's IP. eD Some folks here might not be aware of your attempts to help the VMS D community through the VAMP project - you might want to remind folks 	 about it!    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2005 08:24:12 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)d Subject: Re: VMS Torrentsh3 Message-ID: <nNi+OH6tQh$Q@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  [ In article <3aq6agF56ekd2U1@individual.net>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.dotweg@zonnet.nl> writes:  > > > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> schreef in bericht/ > news:mfmA+IHuZLxM@eisner.encompasserve.org...   H >> Or do you know of some new HP pronouncement that commercial customers >> are allowed to copy kits ?, > N > Most, if not all, commercial customers own more systems than kits. And those
 > kits get	 > copied.   D I should have been more clear, indicating that my question was about; the legality of kit copying _between_ commercial customers.N   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2005 08:27:34 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)m Subject: Re: VMS Torrentsh3 Message-ID: <0kSDBTW1dPbS@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <1112012489.10011.0@nnrp-t71-02.news.clara.net>, issinoho <issinoho@gmail.com> writes:n > Paul Sture wrote:   I >> Yes, but they will have paid for a least one CONDIST set, and perhaps  J >> more importantly, for the support/appropriate license(s) allowing them  >> to upgrade. > K > But surely the possession of the relevant PAK (hobbyist or otherwise) is e7 > the arbiter of entitlement to run a software package?   C But the license to _copy_ software is entirely different.  E.g. thea! "Copying for Sharing" section at:s  R http://www.ljk.com/ljk/LJK_CDROM_DOCUMENTATION/ljk_cdrom_0100_006.html#a_copyright   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Mar 2005 08:30:50 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e Subject: Re: VMS Torrentse3 Message-ID: <Mk+xUoV2+Y6P@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  [ In article <1112017368.99485.0@despina.uk.clara.net>, issinoho <issinoho@gmail.com> writes:n  J > Just for the record, there seems to be a certain aloofness displayed on F > this group by some towards us mere hobbyists - can't quite see why, 5 > surely we're all here for the same reason. *shrugs*w  D While we understand the value of the hobbyist program, the post thatE started this thread contained no hint of a design that would precludeo> non-hobbyists from using the site, and such use seems illegal.  D One of the reasons VMS commercial licensing is rather easy to use isH that no unofficial infrastructure has developed to thwart VMS licensing.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:03:34 -0500-' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>. Subject: Re: VMS Torrentsl0 Message-ID: <114gdkcnlc7cq16@corp.supernews.com>   issinoho wrote:t  K > But surely the possession of the relevant PAK (hobbyist or otherwise) is i7 > the arbiter of entitlement to run a software package?    By no means!  @ The hobbyist PAKs have expiration dates.  It's legal to use the E software, any version, within the valid date range.  It also appears tB legal to acquire media in whatever manner the hobbyist can manage.  G Commercial PAKs do not have expiration dates.  However, a PAK is NOT a  E license.  Usage of the software is governed by the license.  It also mE appears, from reading the fine print on a media CD, that sharing the eG media with 'others' is not a valid thing to do.  This is contradictory  G to the above appearences for hobbyists.  This contradiction is most of  + the uncertainty in the valid uses of media.e  E Once an initial purchase of a commercial license happens, you have a  H timeless PAK, and the right to use the 'current version' as of the time E the license is purchased.  Usually the warranty period, 90 days or a :H year, allows you to upgrade to new versions during the warranty period. G   Once the warranty expires, you are NOT entitled to newer versions of ,F the software unless you have a software maintenance contract, (what's F many times called the 'right to copy'), or you purchase an upgrade to  the new version.  F Commercial users are not entitled to new versions unless they pay for  them in some manner.  F Software support has various levels, from the minimal which gives you F the right to new versions, to telephone support, to ConDist media, to 	 whatever.n  E (Which leads to my gripe about VAX users not getting equal value for 9> their software support dollars, but let's not go there today.)  H The above is my understanding of the licensing, which is dated, and may  not be correct.n   Dave   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.174 ************************