1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 18 May 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 276       Contents: Re: AlphaServer 800 clock speed ( Backup /owner=original /overlay question% backup save set transport and restore % backup save set transport and restore ) Re: backup save set transport and restore ) Re: backup save set transport and restore ) Re: backup save set transport and restore ) Re: backup save set transport and restore ) Re: backup save set transport and restore ) Re: backup save set transport and restore ! CPU Performance and why it varies  Dec RDB V6.1-14 under VMS 6.2 ! Re: Dec RDB V6.1-14 under VMS 6.2  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results + Re: HP break up makes sense - Merrill Lynch 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising  New DS25 & RA 0+1  Re: Now that my VAX is up  Re: Now that my VAX is up # Re: ods 2 to ods 5 convert in place   Re: Problems receiving SMTP mail/ the same old SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA err, but with NCP 3 Re: the same old SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA err, but with NCP  Re: VMS for DS20l/SC20 Re: VMS for DS20l/SC20 VS3100M76 question Re: VS3100M76 question Re: VS3100M76 question  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:45:08 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ( Subject: Re: AlphaServer 800 clock speed( Message-ID: <opsqy4hihnzgicya@hyrrokkin>  9 On 17 May 2005 20:05:04 -0700, johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com   ! <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote:   G > According to the Digital Server 3300/3300R Service Guide ("White Box" H > version of the AS800, Look on the HP site under retired systems)FigureC > 8-3 on page 8-4 shows the CPU speed jumper block is J3 on the CPU I > board.  The first two positions are jumpered for 400Mhz and all jumpers I > removed for 500Mhz.  No guarantees that will work though and if you fry * > your CPU/board then I'm not responsible.  I I doubt that you will fry it.  I have experimented with both Miatas and    XP1000s L until they stopped working and finding the clock speed at which they run.    I haveL a dual Celeron system using 366 MHz chips clocked at 604 MHz running since   December> 1999, so overclocking probably isn't going to cause any damage   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:50:04 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.com1 Subject: Backup /owner=original /overlay question Q Message-ID: <OF21D1A15E.11A16E7A-ON85257005.005BA6BC-85257005.005C5127@metso.com>   ' I had occasion to move a directory tree * (It did not exist at all on the new disk):   $BACKUP/LOG/VERIFY/DELETE -  DISK$USER1:[TOPDIR...]*.*;* - ! DISK$USER2:[TOPDIR...]/OWNER=ORIG   ! but I forgot the /OWNER=ORIGINAL. - Catching my mistake before the deletion pass, + I aborted and did it again adding /OVERLAY. 0 Checking, I found that since the directory files. had been created by the aborted pass, they did* not get overlaid or get the new ownership.  - Catching my mistake before the deletion pass, . I aborted and deleted the entire tree from the5 target disk and did it again with the /OWNER=ORIGINAL 2 and not the /OVERLAY (irrelevant) and it was fine.3 (If it had started deleting, I would have had to go   to a backup and been in a mess.)  * So what about /OVERLAY for directory files4 and what about /OWNER=ORIGINAL/OVERLAY for directory files in a case like this?   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 03:11:33 -0700! From: "Nazim" <nmanser@progis.de> . Subject: backup save set transport and restoreC Message-ID: <1116411093.832009.134150@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Hi all,   E i have made image backups of all the disks vailable from site1 to use  them on site2.  # the systems are configured that way   
 openVMS 7.3-2    1 MSA100 for the shared storage   * 1 cluster (2 node members) say A03 and A04" 2 standalone nodes say A01 and A02  9 A01 has the following logical units assigned from the SAN   + $1$DGA1: (18 GB) system disk (9,68 GB used) , $1$dga5: (36 GB) data disk   (13,98 GB used)   A02   , $1$DGA2: (18 GB) system disk (12,36 GB used), $1$DGA6: (36 GB) data disk   (12,39 GB used)   A03 and A04   0 $1$DGA3: (18 GB) system disk A03 (10,14 GB used)0 $1$DGA4: (18 GB) system disk A04 (10,32 GB used)) $1$DGA7: (72 GB) data disk 1 (36 GB used) + $1$DGA8: (72 GB) data disk 2 (9,03 GB used) A $1$DGA9: (72 GB) cluster common disk, data disk 3 (10,57 GB used)   . All nodes use 1 backup disk $1$DGA19: (136 GB)  G to avoid data corruption i mount the backup disk only on the node where  i make backups.   @ the backup disk is organized in 5 directories with the following contents   cluster    dga9.bck   A01    dga1.bck dga5.bck   A02    dga2.bck dga6.bck   A03    dga3.bck dga7.bck   A04    dga4.bck dga8.bck  D the backups files are image backups done with the following commands   for all system disks  : $backup/image/ignore=interlock/record/log <logical unit> -/ _$  $1$dga19:[directory]<label>_<date>.bck/save   E for all app disks, i shut down all apps,checked that no file was open   4 $backup/image/verify/crc/record/log <logical unit> -. _$ $1$dga19:[directory]<label>_<date>.bck/save    A so far so good, then i used the freeware zip utility to put these  backup save sets into zipfiles     $zip "-V" dga1.zip dga1.bck    then i tested it   $zip "-T" dga1.zip  	 no errors      i got the following zipfiles   dga1.zip (851 MB)  dga5.bck-gz (7,6 GB)   dga2.zip (395 MB)  dga6.zip (800 MB)    dga3.zip (937 MB)  dga7.zip (142 MB)    dga4.zip (1,21 GB) dga8.zip (1,75 GB)   dga9.zip (277 MB)   G i then transported them in binary mode from vms machine to a windows pc & and then from that pc to a vms machine  A i rechecked the integrity of the zip files on the vms machine, so 
 no problem  5 i then unzipped one of the save sets, and then made a   > $backup/list <label>_<date>.bck/save and after a while got the following error     Listing of save set(s)   $ Save set:          WLDISK_230305.BCK Written by:        SYSTEM " UIC:               [000001,000004]* Date:              23-MAR-2005 19:02:56.86> Command:           BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY/CRC/LOG/RECORD $1$DGA9:( $1$DGA19:[CLUSTER]WLDISK_230305.BCK/SAVE- Operating system:  OpenVMS Alpha version V7.3  BACKUP version:    AXP72R001 CPU ID register:   80000000  Written on:        _$1$DGA19:  Block size:        32256 Group size:        10  Buffer count:      294   Image save of volume set Number of volumes: 1   Volume attributes  Structure level:   5 Label:             wldisk  Owner:" Owner UIC:         [000001,000004]* Creation date:      3-JAN-2005 08:41:25.49 Total blocks:      142207380 Access count:      3 Cluster size:      137$ Data check:        No Read, No Write Extension size:    5< File protection:   System:RWED, Owner:RWED, Group:RE, World: Maximum files:     515244 B Volume protection: System:RWCD, Owner:RWCD, Group:RWCD, World:RWCD Windows:           7  = [000000]000000.DIR;1                                        1  3-JAN-2005 08:41= [000000]BACKUP.SYS;1                                        0  3-JAN-2005 08:41= [000000]BADBLK.SYS;1                                      137  3-JAN-2005 08:41= [000000]BADLOG.SYS;1                                        0  3-JAN-2005 08:41= [000000]bea.DIR;1                                           5  11-FEB-2005 12:53 = [bea]10_1_1_65_config.xml;1                                28  1-MAR-2005 13:47= [bea]bea1596^.tmp.DIR;1                                     1  11-FEB-2005 13:15 = [bea.bea1596^.tmp]jni_win.dll;1                           464  11-FEB-2005 13:15 = [bea.bea1596^.tmp]jni_win64.dll;1                         813  11-FEB-2005 13:15 = [bea.bea1596^.tmp]libjni^.aix.so;1                        206  11-FEB-2005 13:15 = [bea.bea1596^.tmp]libjni^.hpux.sl;1                       160  11-FEB-2005 13:15 = [bea.bea1596^.tmp]libjni^.linux.so;1                      142  11-FEB-2005 13:15 = [bea.bea1596^.tmp]libjni^.linux64.so;1                    296  11-FEB-2005 13:15 = [bea.bea1596^.tmp]libjni^.solaris.so;1                    204  11-FEB-2005 13:15 = [bea.bea1596^.tmp]wls8130_145_COMP_generic32.jar;1     255261  11-FEB-2005 13:15 = [bea.bea1596^.tmp]wlw8130_145_COMP_generic32.jar;1     232027  11-FEB-2005 13:15 0 %BACKUP-E-READERRS, excessive error rate reading9 SYS$SYSDEVICE:[000000.BACKUPS.CLUSTER]WLDISK_230305.BCK;1 , -BACKUP-E-BLOCKCRC, software block CRC error4 %BACKUP-I-SPECIFY, specify option (QUIT or CONTINUE)  / i then checked the integrity of the backup file   	 $dir/full 4 WLDISK_230305.BCK;1           File ID:  (34938,12,0)- Size:     17184510/17184531   Owner:    [1,1] # Created:    23-MAR-2005 19:02:57.15 ' Revised:    23-MAR-2005 20:16:22.74 (1)  Expires:    <None specified>  Backup:     <No backup recorded> Effective:  <None specified> Recording:  <None specified> Accessed:   <None specified> Attributes: <None specified> Modified:   <None specified>
 Linkcount:  1  File organization:  Sequential Shelved state:      Online  Caching attribute:  WritethroughB File attributes:    Allocation: 17184531, Extend: 0, Global buffer count: 0, No version limit3 Record format:      Fixed length 32256 byte records  Record attributes:  None RMS attributes:     None Journaling enabled: None= File protection:    System:RWED, Owner:RWED, Group:RE, World:  Access Cntrl List:  None Client attributes:  None    ! setting the files attributes like = $set file/attributes=(lrl:32256,mrs:32256) <label>_<date>.bck B does not change anything as the block size and the max record size match.  	 any ideas    regards    Nazim    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 05:55:56 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda). Subject: backup save set transport and restore2 Message-ID: <05051805555685_2860027B@antinode.org>  ! From: "Nazim" <nmanser@progis.de>   - > $1$DGA1: (18 GB) system disk (9,68 GB used) . > $1$dga5: (36 GB) data disk   (13,98 GB used) > . > $1$DGA2: (18 GB) system disk (12,36 GB used). > $1$DGA6: (36 GB) data disk   (12,39 GB used) > [...]       Could be too big...  C > so far so good, then i used the freeware zip utility to put these   > backup save sets into zipfiles >  > $zip "-V" dga1.zip dga1.bck   <    Which version of Zip ("zip -v")?  Versions older than theD not-yet-released 3.0 may have trouble with files bigger than 2GB (or 4GB).    > then i tested it >  > $zip "-T" dga1.zip >  > no errors   @    Which version of UnZip ("unzip -v").  Versions older than theD not-yet-released 6.0 may have trouble with files bigger than 2GB (or 4GB).    > i got the following zipfiles >  > dga1.zip (851 MB)  > dga5.bck-gz (7,6 GB)
        ^^^^^^ D    May I assume that Info-ZIP Zip failed on that one (because of the; size)?  And you used some version of GNU zip/unzip instead?    > dga2.zip (395 MB)  > dga6.zip (800 MB)  > [...]   I > i then transported them in binary mode from vms machine to a windows pc ( > and then from that pc to a vms machine  C > i rechecked the integrity of the zip files on the vms machine, so  > no problem      Checked _how_?   2 > %BACKUP-E-READERRS, excessive error rate reading; > SYS$SYSDEVICE:[000000.BACKUPS.CLUSTER]WLDISK_230305.BCK;1 . > -BACKUP-E-BLOCKCRC, software block CRC error6 > %BACKUP-I-SPECIFY, specify option (QUIT or CONTINUE)  "    Sounds like a corrupt save set.  1 > i then checked the integrity of the backup file  >  > $dir/full 6 > WLDISK_230305.BCK;1           File ID:  (34938,12,0)/ > Size:     17184510/17184531   Owner:    [1,1]  > [...]   6    Looks to me like more than 2GB.  And more than 4GB.  # > setting the files attributes like ? > $set file/attributes=(lrl:32256,mrs:32256) <label>_<date>.bck D > does not change anything as the block size and the max record size > match.  3    I'd say that the attributes are not the problem.    > any ideas   D    UnZip the archive before this stuff (that is, on the original VMS system):I > i then transported them in binary mode from vms machine to a windows pc ( > and then from that pc to a vms machine  A    If BACKUP /LIST still hates it, then it's probably a Zip/UnZip @ problem.  Unless this is that ".bck-gz" file, in which case it'sB probably a gzip/gunzip problem (also probably a 2GB or 4GB limit).  G    There are some beta versions of Zip 3 and Unzip 6 which might help.  E It might be easier to forget Zip (Info-ZIP or GNU) for that save set, F transfer the whole thing, reset the file attributes on the destinationB system, and see if that works better.  (As I read your numbers, itF didn't compress all that much anyway.  Although it _is_ big, so 50% is still a lot of space.)  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 05:35:35 -0700 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>2 Subject: Re: backup save set transport and restore/ Message-ID: <BEB084A7.E184%roktsci@comcast.net>    On 5/18/05 3:11 AM, in article> 1116411093.832009.134150@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Nazim" <nmanser@progis.de> wrote:  	 > Hi all,  > G > i have made image backups of all the disks vailable from site1 to use  > them on site2. > % > the systems are configured that way  >  > openVMS 7.3-2  > ! > 1 MSA100 for the shared storage  > , > 1 cluster (2 node members) say A03 and A04$ > 2 standalone nodes say A01 and A02 > ; > A01 has the following logical units assigned from the SAN  > - > $1$DGA1: (18 GB) system disk (9,68 GB used) . > $1$dga5: (36 GB) data disk   (13,98 GB used) >  > A02  > . > $1$DGA2: (18 GB) system disk (12,36 GB used). > $1$DGA6: (36 GB) data disk   (12,39 GB used) > 
 > A03 and A04  > 2 > $1$DGA3: (18 GB) system disk A03 (10,14 GB used)2 > $1$DGA4: (18 GB) system disk A04 (10,32 GB used)+ > $1$DGA7: (72 GB) data disk 1 (36 GB used) - > $1$DGA8: (72 GB) data disk 2 (9,03 GB used) C > $1$DGA9: (72 GB) cluster common disk, data disk 3 (10,57 GB used)  > 0 > All nodes use 1 backup disk $1$DGA19: (136 GB) > I > to avoid data corruption i mount the backup disk only on the node where  > i make backups.  > B > the backup disk is organized in 5 directories with the following
 > contents > 	 > cluster  > 
 > dga9.bck >  > A01  > 
 > dga1.bck
 > dga5.bck >  > A02  > 
 > dga2.bck
 > dga6.bck >  > A03  > 
 > dga3.bck
 > dga7.bck >  > A04  > 
 > dga4.bck
 > dga8.bck > F > the backups files are image backups done with the following commands >  > for all system disks > < > $backup/image/ignore=interlock/record/log <logical unit> -1 > _$  $1$dga19:[directory]<label>_<date>.bck/save  > G > for all app disks, i shut down all apps,checked that no file was open  > 6 > $backup/image/verify/crc/record/log <logical unit> -0 > _$ $1$dga19:[directory]<label>_<date>.bck/save >  > C > so far so good, then i used the freeware zip utility to put these   > backup save sets into zipfiles >  >  > $zip "-V" dga1.zip dga1.bck  >  > then i tested it >  > $zip "-T" dga1.zip >  > no errors  >  >  > i got the following zipfiles >  > dga1.zip (851 MB)  > dga5.bck-gz (7,6 GB) >  > dga2.zip (395 MB)  > dga6.zip (800 MB)  >  > dga3.zip (937 MB)  > dga7.zip (142 MB)  >  > dga4.zip (1,21 GB) > dga8.zip (1,75 GB) >  > dga9.zip (277 MB)  > I > i then transported them in binary mode from vms machine to a windows pc ( > and then from that pc to a vms machine > C > i rechecked the integrity of the zip files on the vms machine, so  > no problem > 7 > i then unzipped one of the save sets, and then made a  > @ > $backup/list <label>_<date>.bck/save and after a while got the > following error  >  >  Listing of save set(s)  > & > Save set:          WLDISK_230305.BCK > Written by:        SYSTEM $ > UIC:               [000001,000004], > Date:              23-MAR-2005 19:02:56.86@ > Command:           BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY/CRC/LOG/RECORD $1$DGA9:* > $1$DGA19:[CLUSTER]WLDISK_230305.BCK/SAVE/ > Operating system:  OpenVMS Alpha version V7.3  > BACKUP version:    AXP72R001 > CPU ID register:   80000000  > Written on:        _$1$DGA19:  > Block size:        32256 > Group size:        10  > Buffer count:      294 >  > Image save of volume set > Number of volumes: 1 >  > Volume attributes  > Structure level:   5 > Label:             wldisk  > Owner:$ > Owner UIC:         [000001,000004], > Creation date:      3-JAN-2005 08:41:25.49 > Total blocks:      142207380 > Access count:      3 > Cluster size:      137& > Data check:        No Read, No Write > Extension size:    5> > File protection:   System:RWED, Owner:RWED, Group:RE, World: > Maximum files:     515244 D > Volume protection: System:RWCD, Owner:RWCD, Group:RWCD, World:RWCD > Windows:           7 > ? > [000000]000000.DIR;1                                        1  > 3-JAN-2005 08:41? > [000000]BACKUP.SYS;1                                        0  > 3-JAN-2005 08:41? > [000000]BADBLK.SYS;1                                      137  > 3-JAN-2005 08:41? > [000000]BADLOG.SYS;1                                        0  > 3-JAN-2005 08:41? > [000000]bea.DIR;1                                           5  > 11-FEB-2005 12:53 ? > [bea]10_1_1_65_config.xml;1                                28  > 1-MAR-2005 13:47? > [bea]bea1596^.tmp.DIR;1                                     1  > 11-FEB-2005 13:15 ? > [bea.bea1596^.tmp]jni_win.dll;1                           464  > 11-FEB-2005 13:15 ? > [bea.bea1596^.tmp]jni_win64.dll;1                         813  > 11-FEB-2005 13:15 ? > [bea.bea1596^.tmp]libjni^.aix.so;1                        206  > 11-FEB-2005 13:15 ? > [bea.bea1596^.tmp]libjni^.hpux.sl;1                       160  > 11-FEB-2005 13:15 ? > [bea.bea1596^.tmp]libjni^.linux.so;1                      142  > 11-FEB-2005 13:15 ? > [bea.bea1596^.tmp]libjni^.linux64.so;1                    296  > 11-FEB-2005 13:15 ? > [bea.bea1596^.tmp]libjni^.solaris.so;1                    204  > 11-FEB-2005 13:15 ? > [bea.bea1596^.tmp]wls8130_145_COMP_generic32.jar;1     255261  > 11-FEB-2005 13:15 ? > [bea.bea1596^.tmp]wlw8130_145_COMP_generic32.jar;1     232027  > 11-FEB-2005 13:15 2 > %BACKUP-E-READERRS, excessive error rate reading; > SYS$SYSDEVICE:[000000.BACKUPS.CLUSTER]WLDISK_230305.BCK;1 . > -BACKUP-E-BLOCKCRC, software block CRC error6 > %BACKUP-I-SPECIFY, specify option (QUIT or CONTINUE) > 1 > i then checked the integrity of the backup file  >  > $dir/full 6 > WLDISK_230305.BCK;1           File ID:  (34938,12,0)/ > Size:     17184510/17184531   Owner:    [1,1] % > Created:    23-MAR-2005 19:02:57.15 ) > Revised:    23-MAR-2005 20:16:22.74 (1)  > Expires:    <None specified>" > Backup:     <No backup recorded> > Effective:  <None specified> > Recording:  <None specified> > Accessed:   <None specified> > Attributes: <None specified> > Modified:   <None specified> > Linkcount:  1   > File organization:  Sequential > Shelved state:      Online" > Caching attribute:  WritethroughD > File attributes:    Allocation: 17184531, Extend: 0, Global buffer > count: 0, No version limit5 > Record format:      Fixed length 32256 byte records  > Record attributes:  None > RMS attributes:     None > Journaling enabled: None? > File protection:    System:RWED, Owner:RWED, Group:RE, World:  > Access Cntrl List:  None > Client attributes:  None >  > # > setting the files attributes like ? > $set file/attributes=(lrl:32256,mrs:32256) <label>_<date>.bck D > does not change anything as the block size and the max record size > match. >  > any ideas  > 	 > regards  >  > Nazim  > H Concerning the proper file attributes of the backup saveset, the command. procedure FIXSAVESET.COM located at this link:/ http://support.mti.com/VMS2005cd/fixsaveset.htm K Reads the backup header and sets the file attributes to the proper settings  including the block size.   L While the procedure will take care of your file attribute issues, I doubt it will correct the crc error.    I hope this helps. Jeff   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:54:41 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)2 Subject: Re: backup save set transport and restore2 Message-ID: <05051807544182_2860027B@antinode.org>  ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>  	 > > [...] 4 > > %BACKUP-E-READERRS, excessive error rate reading= > > SYS$SYSDEVICE:[000000.BACKUPS.CLUSTER]WLDISK_230305.BCK;1 0 > > -BACKUP-E-BLOCKCRC, software block CRC error8 > > %BACKUP-I-SPECIFY, specify option (QUIT or CONTINUE)	 > > [...]   N > While the procedure will take care of your file attribute issues, I doubt it > will correct the crc error.   8    File attribute problems like a bad block size _cause_7 BACKUP-E-BLOCKCRC, but then it's usually accompanied by + BACKUP-E-INVBLKSIZE and BACKUP-E-INVRECSIZ.   F    See, for example, "http://antinode.org/dec/sw/fixrec.html", or make4 your own example with SET FILE /ATTRIBUTES (or FTP).  G    By the way, when did all problems become "issues"?  A _magazine_ has D issues.  (Unless it jams, and then it has a problem.  As might you.)  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 06:28:22 -0700! From: "Nazim" <nmanser@progis.de> 2 Subject: Re: backup save set transport and restoreC Message-ID: <1116422902.167709.175230@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   9 thanks for your answer, i will give you more informations    1) versions of zip/gzip/unzip     Copyright (C) 1990-2005 Info-ZIP% Type 'zip "-L"' for software license. ; Zip 2.31 (March 8th 2005). Usage: zip=="$disk:[dir]zip.exe"   F UnZip 5.42 of 14 January 2001, by Info-ZIP.  Maintained by C. Spieler. SendD bug reports to the authors at Zip-Bugs@lists.wku.edu; see README for details.   gzip124x-axp 1.2.4 (18 Aug 93); usage: gzip124x-axp [-cdfhlLnNtvV19] [-S suffix] [file ...]     @ 2) i checked the integrity integrity of the zip files on the vms machine, so no problem  8 with the -t option of the unzip , zip and gzip utilities  3 3) the backup save sets are from 8  - 13 GB in size   A 4) i did this (zip ) because of the limit of the windows external  harddisk available. E    the total amount of data to transport i.e sum of all the save sets  sizes is 130 GB   G    i think the 2/4 GB limitation is due to the zip/unzip/gzip comppiled E in 32 Bit  mode which can address up to 2 GB (signed) 4 GB (unsigned)   B how about zip 3.0 and unzip 6.0 are they compiled in 64 bit mode ?   Nazim Manser +49 172 704 11 74    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:44:58 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)2 Subject: Re: backup save set transport and restore2 Message-ID: <05051808445884_2860027B@antinode.org>  ! From: "Nazim" <nmanser@progis.de>   = > Zip 2.31 (March 8th 2005). Usage: zip=="$disk:[dir]zip.exe"        That's the newest of the 2.x.  H > UnZip 5.42 of 14 January 2001, by Info-ZIP.  Maintained by C. Spieler.  6    5.52 is available (but it won't help this problem).    > gzip124x-axp 1.2.4 (18 Aug 93)  F    I haven't looked at gzip for a while, but that looks like the (old) one I have.     B > 2) i checked the integrity integrity of the zip files on the vms > machine, so no problem > : > with the -t option of the unzip , zip and gzip utilities  G    Ok, but if the program can't read a large file, then you can't trust  it.   5 > 3) the backup save sets are from 8  - 13 GB in size   >    Too big for Zip 2.x, Unzip 5.x (and, I assume, gzip 1.2.4).  C > 4) i did this (zip ) because of the limit of the windows external  > harddisk available. G >    the total amount of data to transport i.e sum of all the save sets  > sizes is 130 GB       Do them one at a time.   &    Why is the Windows system involved?  I >    i think the 2/4 GB limitation is due to the zip/unzip/gzip comppiled G > in 32 Bit  mode which can address up to 2 GB (signed) 4 GB (unsigned)   )    Yes (Zip, UnZip).  Most likely (gzip).   D > how about zip 3.0 and unzip 6.0 are they compiled in 64 bit mode ?  G    On VMS, it's optional (but possible on non-VAX systems).  The latest * official beta kits should be available at:  2       ftp://ftp.info-zip.org/pub/infozip/OLD/beta/  F I've been working on the next beta version for a while (coming soon?),H so I'm not sure about the bugs in Zip 3.0d and Unzip 6.0b.  I think thatG they should be good enough.  If you have trouble, let me know and I can ! probably get you something newer.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:05:08 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 2 Subject: Re: backup save set transport and restore0 Message-ID: <118mmbh4r0p2b93@corp.supernews.com>   Nazim wrote:; > thanks for your answer, i will give you more informations  >  > 1) versions of zip/gzip/unzip   G Why don't you just forget using zip?  The backup save sets, as long as  H any FTP transfers treat them as binary files, can be copied without any E problems.  Re-setting file attributes at the destination is adequate.    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 09:35:56 -0700! From: "Nazim" <nmanser@progis.de> 2 Subject: Re: backup save set transport and restoreB Message-ID: <1116434155.999038.28340@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   thanks for your quick answer.    2)  E if the programms cant read larger files than 2/4 GB i would expect an 1 error message, thats why i trusted the -t option.    4)  G the problem was that the 2 sites are far from each other, and i used an E external USB hard drive for transport, so thats why i had to copy the 6 zipfiles from VMS to a windows PC with that USB drive.E the systems have neither a tape drive nor removable SCSI drives which  are supported on vms. D the san configuration does not permit to unplug a drive from the SANC and to put it on the other vms machine through the external storage  cage. A all the drives mentionned ($1$dga1, etc..) are logical units, not  physical drives.   5)  9 i have repeated the test with a backup saveset of 4,57 GB B then i extracted the checksum, zipped it,ftpted it unzipped it andA checked the size (same as before 4,57 GB) and checksum (different  value)  F i have gzipped it with gzip -v -9 then gzip -d the result is worse, it corrupted the backup file   RMS FILE ATTRIBUTES  %         File Organization: sequential           Record Format: stream-LF+         Record Attributes:  carriage-return          Maximum Record Size: 0         Longest Record: 32767 9         Blocks Allocated: 9598428, Default Extend Size: 0 2         End-of-File VBN: 9598429, Offset: %X'0000'!         File Monitoring: disabled          Global Buffer Count: 0C ***  VBN 9598428:  Last stream record does not contain a delimiter. 5 Unrecoverable error encountered in structure of file.      Nazim   < so gzip is neither trustable for files bigger than 2 / 4 GB.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:42:45 -0500 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon)* Subject: CPU Performance and why it varies1 Message-ID: <05051810424572@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   L I have a question regarding CPU performance and why/what would make it vary.   My servers: * AlphaServer ES40-2 4x 667-MHz 3-GB (2-way)
 VMS V7.2-1  " AlphaServer DS40-E 2x 500-MHz 3-GB
 VMS V7.2-1    N I have been experiencing performance degradation in the ES40 and was exploringG the reasons why.  In my explorations I came across what I think is odd.   I To explore the issue further, I made use of an application (FORTRAN) that K performs SYS$GETUAI service calls and other system service calls to build a D list of user information.  This list is exactly like that created by MCR AUTHORIZE LIST.    $ SHOW PROCESS /ACCOUNT  $ RUN APPLICATION  $ SHOW PROCESS /ACCOUNT   F As a test of relative performance between the ES40 and DS20 I ran thisJ application on them both - the CPU time was nearly the same (10 seconds) -N being 0.2 second apart.  I would have expected better CPU performance from the ES40 over the DS20 by 20-30%.   K I ran the application on the ES40 several more times and found that the CPU 1 time fluctuated between 8 seconds and 14 seconds.    Which brings me to my question.   K I would expect that Elapsed Time (total) would fluctuate based on disk I/O, G etc., however I would not expect CPU time to vary that much, if at all.   
 Why is it?  N I am thinking that making calls to the system service routines are the culpritI - since the system routine would mask any I/O seconds as a CPU second, or  would it?  Just call me stumpy.        John "REBOOT" Brandon  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 08:34:51 -07003 From: "NightspeedIT" <derek.cowdrey@nightspeed.com> & Subject: Dec RDB V6.1-14 under VMS 6.2C Message-ID: <1116430491.529600.205410@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    HELP!!!   @ I am the technical support person for Nightspeed Services Ltd in Tipton, UK.   E We have been using RDB V6.1-14 under VMS 6.2 for several years with a F major hitch but suddenly, two days ago we started to get large numbers of...   2 %RDB-E-BAD_TRANS_HANDL, invalid transaction handle  E ... errors. There have been no changes made to the system as far as I 	 am aware.   E I have very scant knowledge of RDB internals and Oracle don't seem to G interested in helping me (I know we don't have a support contract but I 3 did offer to pay to speak to someone on the phone!)   4 Is there anyone out there who might be able to help?   Thanks  
 Derek Cowdrey    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:28:14 +0200 0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>* Subject: Re: Dec RDB V6.1-14 under VMS 6.2B Message-ID: <428b7b2e$0$14750$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>   NightspeedIT wrote: 	 > HELP!!!  > B > I am the technical support person for Nightspeed Services Ltd in
 > Tipton, UK.  > G > We have been using RDB V6.1-14 under VMS 6.2 for several years with a H > major hitch but suddenly, two days ago we started to get large numbers > of...  > 4 > %RDB-E-BAD_TRANS_HANDL, invalid transaction handle > H > .... errors. There have been no changes made to the system as far as I > am aware.  > G > I have very scant knowledge of RDB internals and Oracle don't seem to I > interested in helping me (I know we don't have a support contract but I 5 > did offer to pay to speak to someone on the phone!)  > 6 > Is there anyone out there who might be able to help? >  > Thanks >  > Derek Cowdrey  >   	 Hi Derek,   H That is still not much information to go on for an analysis. This error G is usually preceded by another error message indicating the real cause  H of the problem. The transaction handle error means that the transaction E context has (for some reason) been lost or not correctly established  E before attempting to perform an operation requiring that transaction  < context. Here is the documentation for this error message...   ------- , BAD_TRANS_HANDLE, invalid transaction handle  B Explanation: You may have attempted a commit or rollback operation0 when no transaction is active. For example, your5 program may execute the same set of actions to handle/5 all fatal errors. If those actions include a rollbackp3 operation, the rollback operation will generate ther4 BAD_TRANS_HANDLE error after a fatal error occurs on/ database attachment or on an attempt to start as6 transaction. The BAD_TRANS_HANDLE error occurs because4 you cannot end a transaction when no transaction has
 been started.a  5 (RCI and RDML users) If you declared a variable as an 5 explicit transaction handle, you: a) may not have set 7 the variable to zero before starting the transaction or25 b) may have modified the variable after it was set by  the database system.  @ User Action: Do not execute commit or rollback operations when a1 transaction is not active. Alternatively, you maye1 choose to specifically check for this error aftere7 execution of commit and rollback operations, and branchn- to program recovery actions when appropriate.t1 (RCI and RDML users) If you explicitly declared at4 transaction handle variable in your program, set the2 variable to zero before referring to it. Make sure7 that your program does not write to this variable after  initializing its value.d ------------    H Maybe you could describe more what was being done, and how, at the time D of the error? Where do you see the error (application screen or log G file)? What tools or languages are being used by the application?  You e? should probably check for dump or log files at the application sF directory, the user directory, the user's SYS$SCRATCH directory or at 9 the directory pointed to by the logical RDM$BUGCHECK_DIR.t  F Eventually, a successful analysis may require a qualified person with < access to the code and a system that is producing the error.  B I think (especially if you were offering money) you were probably I talking to the wrong people at Oracle. I would suggest contacting one of -/ the persons listed at the following web page...CA http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/rdb/Contacts/index.htmliH Ingrid Klein should be able to help you get in contact with a qualified  person in Oracle Support.   G There are also several Rdb Consultants worldwide who would be happy to m have your business...e  . achi Informatik Dienstleistungen - Switzerland http://www.achi.ch/   2 ACS - operations in nearly 100 countries worldwide http://www.acs-inc.com/>   ALI/Empirical Software - USA http://www.aliconsultants.com/   Bethinda - Netherlands$ http://www.bethinda.nl/en/index.html   BIOS Software GmbH - Germany* http://www.bios-software.de/bios/index.htm  1 Colin Sewell OpenVMS Consulting Services - Canadai http://www3.telus.net/csewell/   Contemporary Technologies - USAz http://www.contemptech.com/r  , DCU - Data Collections Unlimited, Inc. - USA http://www.dcu-inc.com/    Equicon - Germanyr http://www.equicon.de/  5 Evenlogic, Software House, South West London, Englandw% http://www.evenlogic.co.uk/index.htmlh   First DBA Source, Inc. - USA http://www.firstdbasource.com/   GAP - UK http://www.gap.co.uk/e$ http://www.gap.co.uk/oracle_RDB.html  ( ITurnITy Information Group - Netherlands$ http://www.iturnity.com/index_uk.htm   JCC Consulting, Inc. - USA http://www.jcc.com/l   Keane, Inc. - India SubsidiaryG http://www.keane.com/about/worldwide/country.php?state=II&country=India.  C M Squared Consulting, Inc. - USA - ALL-IN-1, TeamLinks, Linkworks, c Pathworks, Rdb - Partner Brief: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/partners/m-squared/index.htm   MainTrend Ltd. - USA and CanadaE http://www.maintrend.net/   0 Meyering Software Productions b.v. - Netherlands! http://www.mspbv.nl/msp_index.htm    Praxa Ltd - Australiaa http://www.praxa.com.au/   RKS - Sweden http://www.rks.sef  & Salem Automation - USA and Puerto Rico  http://www.winvms.com/about.html  	 SCI - USAe http://www.sciinc.com/  ! SEKA-Service-Programing - Germanyb: http://www.seka.de/e/service/Programing.htm#Programmierung  3 SIT System- und Informations-Technik GmbH - GermanyE& http://www.sit-germany.de/indexen.html   Softax - Polandt http://www.softax.pl  3 STI - Solues em Tecnologia da Informao - Brazilu http://www.stinfo.com.br/l   TE&PJ Contractors - New ZealandO http://www.jerrom.co.nz/   VX Company - Netherlands http://www.vxcompany.nl/   Yartoo Software - Australia3 http://www.yartoo.com.au/s  9 There are probably many others which I don't have listed.e  D You may also consider joining the JCC Rdb Listserver discussion and 9 informal support group. Instruction for joining are at...i! http://www.jcc.com/listserver.htmi     Cheers!y   Keith Cayembergd   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:18:21 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>e Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results, Message-ID: <428ADE2C.BA12E7E3@teksavvy.com>   Quick comment:  @ In the press release, HP has no problem including HP-UX specificH numbers. So this means that there are no rules against specificy product2 specific number in such quarterly number releases.    $ Business Critical servers grew by 2% HP-UX grew by 9%  @ Does this mean that VMS/Tandem are dragging down growth in BCS ?  J Or is it the Network Storage (which went down by 6%) included in the BCS ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:24:08 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results, Message-ID: <O-qdneV5IP-Y3xbfRVn-rg@igs.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Quick comment: >gB > In the press release, HP has no problem including HP-UX specificB > numbers. So this means that there are no rules against specificy< > product specific number in such quarterly number releases.     Exactly.   --F OpenVMS - The never advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.b   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:48:22 GMTi1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com>k Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results2 Message-ID: <GIHie.5611$xf5.3688@news.cpqcorp.net>   John Smith wrote:u4 > As they say themselves in the statement footnotes,L > (a) HP has added an aggregation of HP's Personal Systems Group and ImagingI > and Printing Group to provide a supplementary view of HP's business. IneL > addition, HP has reflected certain fiscal 2005 organizational realignments@ > on a backward-looking basis to provide improved visibility and > comparability.  H HP recently put PSG and IPG together in the same organization. They are H sold via the same channels to the same customers, often together in the H same sale, so it makes a lot of sense. This note simply says HP is also I providing numbers for previous periods with PSG and IPG data combined to lI make apples-to-apples comparisons easier. You were reading too much into t this.>  N > Also of interest is the amount of R&D spending HP is currently doing - aboutC > 4.1% of sales, which is extremely low for a 'technology' company.S    Dell reported theirs at 0.9% -- P http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/826083/000095013405004423/d22995e10vk.htm  I IBM's was at 5.9% -- http://www.ibm.com/annualreport/2004/annual/ch.shtmlr  E Given HP's product mix compared with IBM's and Dell's, the R&D spend   number looks about right.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:28:57 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>g Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results, Message-ID: <vvWdncAfLLTJ8BbfRVn-2g@igs.net>   Keith Parris wrote:  > John Smith wrote::5 >> As they say themselves in the statement footnotes, E >> (a) HP has added an aggregation of HP's Personal Systems Group and E >> Imaging and Printing Group to provide a supplementary view of HP'se> >> business. In addition, HP has reflected certain fiscal 2005E >> organizational realignments on a backward-looking basis to provideW) >> improved visibility and comparability.d >:E > HP recently put PSG and IPG together in the same organization. They F > are sold via the same channels to the same customers, often togetherE > in the same sale, so it makes a lot of sense. This note simply says D > HP is also providing numbers for previous periods with PSG and IPGE > data combined to make apples-to-apples comparisons easier. You wereI > reading too much into this.      Maybe, maybe not. ;-)0    G >> Also of interest is the amount of R&D spending HP is currently doingA
 >> - aboutD >> 4.1% of sales, which is extremely low for a 'technology' company. >2! > Dell reported theirs at 0.9% --i >lL http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/826083/000095013405004423/d22995e10vk .htm >; > IBM's was at 5.9% --6 > http://www.ibm.com/annualreport/2004/annual/ch.shtml    J Dell is a supply-chain management company with advertising that happens to1 sell technology, not a technology company per se.     F > Given HP's product mix compared with IBM's and Dell's, the R&D spend > number looks about right..    K Last year both Intel and Cisco's R&D was 13.97% of total sales (Intel's was6 over 15% in 2002).  ? Both IBM and HP in years gone-by had R&D well over 8% of sales.m     So what's your point again?1     --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:37:58 +0800i From: prep@prep.synonet.comK4 Subject: Re: HP break up makes sense - Merrill Lynch- Message-ID: <87ekc4vmyh.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  ) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:k   > prep@prep.synonet.com wrote:, >> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  = >>>Is the 'Alpha Team' still working on that EV8 itanic?  :-)   > >> No, they got nuked and a newer better on with about 1/3 the6 >> performance and several times the power was picked.   > Missed the smiley, huh?   @ Not that I noticed. Paint one on the front of an RPG perhaps? ;)  B > I read about how the HP people didn't want the product the AlphaF > people were working on.  They got that dumped, just before they were > dumped.  :-)  ( >> Many have left for a new startup btw.   > Intereesting.n  $ > Where do you get such information?   > Any info on the startup?  C I wish! I'd love to know what they are up to, but thought e-mailingoD Pete Bannon at his old intel address might not be real productive 8)   -- y< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.r@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2005 11:02:59 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f0ln2F56qcpU2@individual.net>i  C In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,6' 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:1 > H > Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs' reliabilityI > and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand Superbowl ad andi > the "Think different" ads. > C > People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security,p3 > clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that?r >  > Why? Why not?   A Becasue a MAc is nothing but Unix and anything that applies to it ? would apply to most of it's competitors.  Considering what theye1 use for a kernel, the others are probably better.V   > 
 > Discuss. >  >  > a = ae >    bill   -- rJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:09:05 -0500 6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertisingD Message-ID: <craigberry-D5FB1A.07090518052005@news.isp.giganews.com>  C In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,-&  "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote:  H > Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs' reliabilityI > and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand Superbowl ad and  > the "Think different" ads. > C > People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security, 3 > clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that?i  / Reliability, yes.  I'm not sure about security.   & http://www.apple.com/switch/whyswitch/   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2005 13:31:02 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f0uclF5ehlhU1@individual.net>   3 In article <5MdZq63I02JH@eisner.encompasserve.org>,t> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:l > In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >> nI >> Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs' reliabilityiJ >> and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand Superbowl ad and >> the "Think different" ads.t >> rD >> People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security,4 >> clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that? > D >    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularlyH >    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting the MacI >    GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for the humans >    interface to a UNIX.h  I Why?  Just what does the Mac GUI have to offer that can't be found in any- other X11 GUI?   bill   -- -J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   0   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2005 13:33:30 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f0uh9F5ehlhU2@individual.net>1  C In article <1116422253.614149.266000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, ' 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:p > Bob Koehler wrote:F >> In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,( > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >> >? >> > Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs'y
 > reliability H >> > and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand Superbowl ad > andi >> > the "Think different" ads.: >> >F >> > People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security,6 >> > clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that? >>E >>    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularlynE >>    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting theA > MacGD >>    GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for the > human  >>    interface to a UNIX. >>F >>    Apple doesn't "do" clustering, not even shared-nothing, although > you C >>    can use OS X to "cluster" to basically the same extend as anyo > UNIX.t >>C >>    Apples have always been reliable, especially in comparison tocG >>    fly-by-night PC clones, but they've always concentrated on singleoC >>    user systems that might as well be turned off when not in useg > (they 9 >>    do make servers, but that's not their main target).  >>A >>    When's the last time you saw a comptetiion for iPOD uptime?  >  > I > I meant: Why doesn't Apple advertise how much better it is than Windows H > for the desktop? I didn't mean that Macs are just like VMS. VMS can ofH > course boast about clustering, and that's relevant to its realm. AppleE > can boast about how it's better than Windows for office desktop and  > home use./ > B > So what I'm asking is: Why doesn't either advertise its relative+ > strengths as they apply in its own realm?h >   B Probably because the Mac has nothing to offer that isn't availableD from every other Unix on the market (many much cheaper and some evenD free) beyond a a differnt GUI (which could have been cloned like the5 Windows98 GUI was except apparently no one wants it!)g   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   p   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:23:00 -0400t# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>,: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising, Message-ID: <ac6dnQ5Agsoi3BbfRVn-hw@igs.net>  
 AEF wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote:F >> In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,( > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >>> > >>> Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs'F >>> reliability and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand/ >>> Superbowl ad and the "Think different" ads.] >>>KE >>> People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security,A5 >>> clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that?0 >>E >>    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularlyiE >>    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting thetD >>    Mac GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for$ >>    the human interface to a UNIX. >>F >>    Apple doesn't "do" clustering, not even shared-nothing, althoughG >>    you can use OS X to "cluster" to basically the same extend as any  >> UNIX. >>C >>    Apples have always been reliable, especially in comparison to G >>    fly-by-night PC clones, but they've always concentrated on singleiC >>    user systems that might as well be turned off when not in use ? >>    (they do make servers, but that's not their main target).0 >>A >>    When's the last time you saw a comptetiion for iPOD uptime?  >0 >0A > I meant: Why doesn't Apple advertise how much better it is than0E > Windows for the desktop? I didn't mean that Macs are just like VMS.3F > VMS can of course boast about clustering, and that's relevant to itsF > realm. Apple can boast about how it's better than Windows for office > desktop and home use.  > B > So what I'm asking is: Why doesn't either advertise its relative+ > strengths as they apply in its own realm?b    I Probably because one of the major applications that helps sell Mac's into1G office environments is Microsoft Office.  Advertising that Mac OS X and1L Microsoft Office for Mac is a better, more reliable platform than Windows XPF / MS Office combo is likely a recipie for having an assassin slit your  throat in the dead of the night.     --F OpenVMS - The never advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.0   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 08:04:31 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)6: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <5MdZq63I02JH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > H > Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs' reliabilityI > and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand Superbowl ad andY > the "Think different" ads. > C > People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security, 3 > clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that?   B    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularlyF    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting the MacG    GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for the human1    interface to a UNIX.2  G    Apple doesn't "do" clustering, not even shared-nothing, although youkF    can use OS X to "cluster" to basically the same extend as any UNIX.  @    Apples have always been reliable, especially in comparison toD    fly-by-night PC clones, but they've always concentrated on singleF    user systems that might as well be turned off when not in use (they6    do make servers, but that's not their main target).  >    When's the last time you saw a comptetiion for iPOD uptime?   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 06:17:33 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertisingC Message-ID: <1116422253.614149.266000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>u   Bob Koehler wrote:E > In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,r& "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > >g> > > Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs' reliabilityaG > > and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand Superbowl ade andt > > the "Think different" ads. > >dE > > People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security,55 > > clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that?e >lD >    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularlyD >    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting the Mac C >    GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for the- human- >    interface to a UNIX.1 >aE >    Apple doesn't "do" clustering, not even shared-nothing, although) youjB >    can use OS X to "cluster" to basically the same extend as any UNIX._ >0B >    Apples have always been reliable, especially in comparison toF >    fly-by-night PC clones, but they've always concentrated on singleB >    user systems that might as well be turned off when not in use (theyC8 >    do make servers, but that's not their main target). >o@ >    When's the last time you saw a comptetiion for iPOD uptime?    G I meant: Why doesn't Apple advertise how much better it is than WindowseF for the desktop? I didn't mean that Macs are just like VMS. VMS can ofF course boast about clustering, and that's relevant to its realm. AppleC can boast about how it's better than Windows for office desktop andr	 home use.x  @ So what I'm asking is: Why doesn't either advertise its relative) strengths as they apply in its own realm?s  5 My apologies for not being more clear the first time.    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 07:31:37 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertisingC Message-ID: <1116426697.937662.253100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    John Smith wrote:5 > AEF wrote: > > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> In articley8 <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,* > > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > >>> @ > >>> Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs'B > >>> reliability and security? The only ads I can recall are that grandi1 > >>> Superbowl ad and the "Think different" ads.n > >>> G > >>> People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security, 7 > >>> clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that?0 > >>G > >>    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularly G > >>    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting the8F > >>    Mac GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for& > >>    the human interface to a UNIX. > >>? > >>    Apple doesn't "do" clustering, not even shared-nothing,i althoughE > >>    you can use OS X to "cluster" to basically the same extend as  any 
 > >> UNIX. > >>E > >>    Apples have always been reliable, especially in comparison toaB > >>    fly-by-night PC clones, but they've always concentrated on singleE > >>    user systems that might as well be turned off when not in usetA > >>    (they do make servers, but that's not their main target).t > >>C > >>    When's the last time you saw a comptetiion for iPOD uptime?y > >i > >nC > > I meant: Why doesn't Apple advertise how much better it is than-G > > Windows for the desktop? I didn't mean that Macs are just like VMS.@D > > VMS can of course boast about clustering, and that's relevant to itsdA > > realm. Apple can boast about how it's better than Windows form office > > desktop and home use.  > >.D > > So what I'm asking is: Why doesn't either advertise its relative- > > strengths as they apply in its own realm?a >2 >,F > Probably because one of the major applications that helps sell Mac's intoE > office environments is Microsoft Office.  Advertising that Mac OS Xt andeC > Microsoft Office for Mac is a better, more reliable platform than 
 Windows XPC > / MS Office combo is likely a recipie for having an assassin slits your" > throat in the dead of the night.    A So how about just having an ad that closes with: intuitive, safe,e# reliable and just leave it at that?      > --D > OpenVMS - The never advertised operating system with the dwindling ISVp > base.i    " That should be "never-advertised".   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2005 15:28:03 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f1582F57ng4U1@individual.net>   3 In article <6G8u$1M+gV4s@eisner.encompasserve.org>,k0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:X > In article <3f0uclF5ehlhU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:6 >> In article <5MdZq63I02JH@eisner.encompasserve.org>,A >> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: n >>> In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >>>>  K >>>> Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs' reliability L >>>> and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand Superbowl ad and >>>> the "Think different" ads.h >>>> yF >>>> People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security,6 >>>> clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that? >>> F >>>    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularlyJ >>>    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting the MacK >>>    GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for the human  >>>    interface to a UNIX.0 >> 0L >> Why?  Just what does the Mac GUI have to offer that can't be found in any >> other X11 GUI?  > L > Mac's can run an X11 server, but I do not believe the native GUI uses X11.  B Didn't answer my question.  Seems quite the opposite in that Mac's actually do less.   D But, getting back to the GUI, what does it do that any other doesn'tD do?  If nothing is left that is specifically Mac beyond the GUI what is the advantage?t  M > To see what it is like, take a look in a showroom at your nearest retailer.e  B Hardly seems worth the time or gas.  But I already know what a Mac@ looks like.  I have a number of pre-Power Macs.  They make greatA toys when I have nothing to do with my time but compared to other / computers of the era they really don't do much.2   bill   -- 7J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 10:15:23 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)2: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <EjmQfph6cJkw@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <5MdZq63I02JH@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:Il > In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >> oI >> Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs' reliability J >> and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand Superbowl ad and >> the "Think different" ads.h >> tD >> People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security,4 >> clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that? > D >    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularlyH >    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting the MacI >    GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for the human  >    interface to a UNIX.-  E On the contrary, Classic Mac OS was much more secure than MacOS X hasSD turned out to be.  There have been various reported Internet breakinD techniques for MacOS X, while the older MacOS only had such servicesB as specifically requested by the system manager.  It was chosen by> the US Army as the best safeguarded platform for a web server.  ! Reliability is a different issue.    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 10:18:20 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)-: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <6G8u$1M+gV4s@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  V In article <3f0uclF5ehlhU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:5 > In article <5MdZq63I02JH@eisner.encompasserve.org>,h@ > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:m >> In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:g >>> J >>> Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs' reliabilityK >>> and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand Superbowl ad andr >>> the "Think different" ads. >>> E >>> People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security,l5 >>> clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that?  >> lE >>    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularly I >>    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting the MacfJ >>    GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for the human >>    interface to a UNIX. > K > Why?  Just what does the Mac GUI have to offer that can't be found in anyr > other X11 GUI?  J Mac's can run an X11 server, but I do not believe the native GUI uses X11.K To see what it is like, take a look in a showroom at your nearest retailer.n   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2005 15:30:20 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f15cbF57ng4U2@individual.net>m  3 In article <EjmQfph6cJkw@eisner.encompasserve.org>,n0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:s > In article <5MdZq63I02JH@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:tm >> In article <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:y >>> J >>> Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs' reliabilityK >>> and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand Superbowl ad and0 >>> the "Think different" ads. >>> E >>> People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security,t5 >>> clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that?2 >> sE >>    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularly I >>    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting the Mac J >>    GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for the human >>    interface to a UNIX. > G > On the contrary, Classic Mac OS was much more secure than MacOS X has F > turned out to be.  There have been various reported Internet breakinF > techniques for MacOS X, while the older MacOS only had such servicesD > as specifically requested by the system manager.  It was chosen by@ > the US Army as the best safeguarded platform for a web server.  E You gat a reference for that?  I do IT for the Army and just returneduC from a school that covered pretty much everything the Army is doingo- today and there was no mention of Mac at all.    > # > Reliability is a different issue.    bill   -- iJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:14:38 -0400a# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>r: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising, Message-ID: <4-ednYl3j65h9BbfRVn-vQ@igs.net>  
 AEF wrote: > John Smith wrote:i
 >> AEF wrote:t >>> Bob Koehler wrote: >>>> In article : > <1116381506.534959.198950@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,* >>> "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >>>>>h@ >>>>> Maybe I missed the ads, but does Apple ever tout its Macs'H >>>>> reliability and security? The only ads I can recall are that grand1 >>>>> Superbowl ad and the "Think different" ads.m >>>>>aG >>>>> People here are always saying hp should advertise VMS's security,t7 >>>>> clustering, reliability. Does Apple ever do that?o >>>>G >>>>    Apple is known for its GUI.  Classic Mac OS wasn't particularlyoG >>>>    secure and OS X has had its share of problems.  But putting the F >>>>    Mac GUI on a UNIX kernel is the best thing anyone ever did for& >>>>    the human interface to a UNIX. >>>>H >>>>    Apple doesn't "do" clustering, not even shared-nothing, althoughE >>>>    you can use OS X to "cluster" to basically the same extend as  >>>> any UNIX. >>>>E >>>>    Apples have always been reliable, especially in comparison to B >>>>    fly-by-night PC clones, but they've always concentrated onE >>>>    single user systems that might as well be turned off when not H >>>>    in use (they do make servers, but that's not their main target). >>>>C >>>>    When's the last time you saw a comptetiion for iPOD uptime?o >>>r >>>rC >>> I meant: Why doesn't Apple advertise how much better it is thanwG >>> Windows for the desktop? I didn't mean that Macs are just like VMS. H >>> VMS can of course boast about clustering, and that's relevant to itsH >>> realm. Apple can boast about how it's better than Windows for office >>> desktop and home use., >>>bD >>> So what I'm asking is: Why doesn't either advertise its relative- >>> strengths as they apply in its own realm?o >> >>G >> Probably because one of the major applications that helps sell Mac'siF >> into office environments is Microsoft Office.  Advertising that Mac? >> OS X and Microsoft Office for Mac is a better, more reliableiE >> platform than Windows XP / MS Office combo is likely a recipie for @ >> having an assassin slit your throat in the dead of the night. >r >nC > So how about just having an ad that closes with: intuitive, safe,c% > reliable and just leave it at that?i    H I don't do advertising for Apple. I'd like to do advertising for VMS and  whomever its owner is this week.     >D >> --EE >> OpenVMS - The never advertised operating system with the dwindlinge >> ISV base. >s > $ > That should be "never-advertised".  & Thanks for the grammatical correction.     --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.d   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 11:58:24 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)c: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <pTe+Q3LE6T6l@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  j In article <1116422253.614149.266000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > I > I meant: Why doesn't Apple advertise how much better it is than WindowstH > for the desktop? I didn't mean that Macs are just like VMS. VMS can ofH > course boast about clustering, and that's relevant to its realm. AppleE > can boast about how it's better than Windows for office desktop andr > home use.w > B > So what I'm asking is: Why doesn't either advertise its relative+ > strengths as they apply in its own realm?l  A    As others have posted, Apple has advertized it's reliability.  F    They've concentrated their ads on useablility.  That's their forte.D    They even concentrated on it "getting more work done" despite theD    fact that the 68K fell behing the x86 in performance.  UseabilityB    has a lot more to do with word processing than CPU power.  They%    used that hook until they got PPC.t   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 12:10:13 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <V7x$47F2eXfT@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  V In article <3f0uclF5ehlhU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > K > Why?  Just what does the Mac GUI have to offer that can't be found in anye > other X11 GUI?  ?    The Mac GUI has always been more useable, full featured, and A    self consistent than X11 based UNIX GUIs.  When people use X11pG    UNIX GUIs, what I see is the first thing they do is bring up a shell D    window so they can "get real work done".  Now that I have a shellD    window on my Mac, I rarely use it, over a decade of GUI-only withF    no shell window on most Macs made Apple address all the issues that     UNIX GUIs didn't bother with.  H    I was really disapointed when I found that the X11 FileView on UltrixD    wasn't coupled into any shell with the kind of extensibility thatD    the VMS FileView has into DCL.  Yes, you can do a lot of the sameH    stuff with Tk, but then it wasn't integrated into FileView.  AlthoughH    VMS FileView doesn't have drag and drop (I think CDE's file viewer onH    VMS does, but I gave up on customizing CDE), it does have a rich set (    of features I've found quite usefull.  E    KDE and Gnome aren't their, either.  Mac's still got the best GUI,oG    possibly because they set out to only have a GUI.  Windows did a lotiC    of catching up starting with 95 (a.k.a. "Mac OS for Intel"), but 2    Windows isn't there yet in a lot of other ways.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 12:12:24 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) : Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <7xOU080Fh2JK@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  c In article <EjmQfph6cJkw@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:e > G > On the contrary, Classic Mac OS was much more secure than MacOS X hasgF > turned out to be.  There have been various reported Internet breakinF > techniques for MacOS X, while the older MacOS only had such servicesD > as specifically requested by the system manager.  It was chosen by@ > the US Army as the best safeguarded platform for a web server.  >    Anyone can turn off services.  Classis Mac OS had no memory?    protection, and early on went through lots of virii.  If yourI    don't protect memory, you don't stop a hacker from changing your data.f   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 12:25:11 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)h: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <pS14Gy4BSgSq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3f15cbF57ng4U2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:5 > In article <EjmQfph6cJkw@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 2 > 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  H >> On the contrary, Classic Mac OS was much more secure than MacOS X hasG >> turned out to be.  There have been various reported Internet breakinIG >> techniques for MacOS X, while the older MacOS only had such servicesgE >> as specifically requested by the system manager.  It was chosen bydA >> the US Army as the best safeguarded platform for a web server.a > G > You gat a reference for that?  I do IT for the Army and just returned E > from a school that covered pretty much everything the Army is doinge/ > today and there was no mention of Mac at all.r  3 You are the one who used the present tense "today".e, I was the one who used the past tense "was".E Regarding your request for Google assistance, I get 644,000 hits with   E http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=macintosh+army+webr   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 12:28:12 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)6: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <L7fx0uCGk9+7@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  V In article <3f1582F57ng4U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:5 > In article <6G8u$1M+gV4s@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e2 > 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  M >>> Why?  Just what does the Mac GUI have to offer that can't be found in anyR >>> other X11 GUI? >> aM >> Mac's can run an X11 server, but I do not believe the native GUI uses X11.f >  > Didn't answer my question.  0 The question "any other X11 GUI" was ill-formed.  F > But, getting back to the GUI, what does it do that any other doesn'tF > do?  If nothing is left that is specifically Mac beyond the GUI what > is the advantage?  > N >> To see what it is like, take a look in a showroom at your nearest retailer. > % > Hardly seems worth the time or gas.   F But well worth asking me to retype what has been published in the past 12 months of reviews ?   > But I already know what a Mac 
 > looks like.    So why ask the question ?i  $ > I have a number of pre-Power Macs.  H So therefore you do _not_ know what a contemporary Macintosh looks like.   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2005 17:39:56 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f1cvbF5gm53U1@individual.net>a  3 In article <V7x$47F2eXfT@eisner.encompasserve.org>,.> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:X > In article <3f0uclF5ehlhU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> 0L >> Why?  Just what does the Mac GUI have to offer that can't be found in any >> other X11 GUI?o > / >    The Mac GUI has always been more useable,    F Here we go again.  Matter of opinion, based solely on religous belief.  > >                                              full featured,   E I'm running KDE.  What can the Mac GUI do that I can't?  Be specific.h  A >                                                             andw0 >    self consistent than X11 based UNIX GUIs.    J Don't know what this is supposed to mean.  My KDE seems pretty consistent.I Gnome probably is, but I don't like it enough to get comfortable with it.eC (But like I said above, that more religion or in the case of Gnome,  political.)8  C >                                               When people use X11rI >    UNIX GUIs, what I see is the first thing they do is bring up a shello/ >    window so they can "get real work done".  g  E Probably because that's how they did it for so long the copmmand line E is their favorit UI anyway. (Hint:  I do not run an Xserver on any ofeF my computer room consoles although 90 percent of external access by myD users is X.  I would imagine that most people today who start out onE Linux or BSD with a GUI do not do that and would likely be as lost atd, the shell prompt as most of the people here.  E >                                             Now that I have a shell F >    window on my Mac, I rarely use it, over a decade of GUI-only withH >    no shell window on most Macs made Apple address all the issues that" >    UNIX GUIs didn't bother with.  F Again, name them.  Specifically.  Sometimes a GUI just gets in the wayF unless, of course, the machine isn't capable of doing anything withoutE that additional overhead. (Another hint:  There are many admin tasks,pE including adding users, that I find much faster and easier on WindowsaF outside the GUI.  How would you add 500 users to a Mac?  Oh wait, it's) really just a single user box, isn't it.)-   > J >    I was really disapointed when I found that the X11 FileView on UltrixF >    wasn't coupled into any shell with the kind of extensibility that% >    the VMS FileView has into DCL.  a  G Ultrix is a bad example.  Any real development on Ultrix stopped a longpE time ago and I am sure Dec decided long before that point to put onlyAD the minimum of effort into it as a product.  Let's stick to the con- temporaries of OS-X.  E >                                   Yes, you can do a lot of the same J >    stuff with Tk, but then it wasn't integrated into FileView.  AlthoughJ >    VMS FileView doesn't have drag and drop (I think CDE's file viewer onJ >    VMS does, but I gave up on customizing CDE), it does have a rich set * >    of features I've found quite usefull.  K Maybe I'll see if I can find some students interested enough to try porting J KDE to VMS (if it's even possible!) then we can compare something of aboutK the same vintage.  I doubt much effort is being put into X on VMS either asf  has often been a complaint here.   > * >    KDE and Gnome aren't their, either.    J Why?  Specifically, what can the Mac GUI do that KDE can't (something that4 someone other than a Mac fanatic might find useful!)  F >                                        Mac's still got the best GUI,  . Pure religion.  No observable technical merit.  I >    possibly because they set out to only have a GUI.  Windows did a lotcE >    of catching up starting with 95 (a.k.a. "Mac OS for Intel"), butb4 >    Windows isn't there yet in a lot of other ways.  D Some of them the same as the Mac before it got X11.  No way to share a graphics display.h   bill     -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:28:55 -0500e+ From: Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu>i Subject: New DS25 & RA 0+15 Message-ID: <d6fqg7$38s$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>    Hello,  I I am using an RA3000 now with (7) 36gb disks for my existing ds25 server r that has 36gb disks. I am:D considering ordering a new ds25 with (6) 146gb disks. I will need a ! pedastal RA with dual controllersiF running 0+1 config. What RA models will work with the DS25 server and  will hold (7) 146gb disks?   Thanks in Advance, Chuckl   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:01:02 GMT>  From: John Santos <john@egh.com>" Subject: Re: Now that my VAX is up) Message-ID: <ySAie.6744$6d.6227@trnddc04>o   Mike Rechtman wrote: > healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > 3 >>Stanley F. Quayle <squayle@insight.rr.com> wrote:i >>2 >>>On 17 May 2005 at 19:39, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>XG >>>>I am even considering using disk space served by the VAX for my PDPt9 >>>>users.  Can I use DECnet-Plus or must I use Phase IV?r >>H >>>DECnet-Plus and Phase IV interoperate automatically in Phase IV mode,E >>>so I'd expect that either would work.  I'd be more concerned abouta$ >>>the PDP-11 end of the connection. >>L >>I've had DECnet-Plus on an Alpha talking to RSTS/E, and RSX-11M.  The bulkL >>of the issues I had turned out to be network related, DECnet/E can be veryM >>touchy about running over marginal ethernet.  ISTR, that there is also someMG >>sort of issue if you're trying to do a SET HOST one way or the other.@ >>N >>Having said that, I've not done a lot with DECnet under RSTS/E, I was mainly, >>using it to move data between RSX and VMS. >> >>                Zane > " > From the dim recesses of memory:I > I seem to recall that to 'SET HOST' from RSTS to VMS you have to rename ) > a .TSK file in the $DECNET account from I > <something>UNSUPPORTED<something> (or similar,) to replace the original F > .TSK. Also from memory, this is not documented anywhere, and is just- > something 'everyone is supposed to know...'h >   ' RSTS$ rename $DECNET:NET.TSK NETSUP.TSKr' RSTS$ rename $DECNET:NETUNS.TSK NET.TSK?  & This is for SET HOST from RSTS to VMS.  H Also, I've found that ODT mode generally works much nicer, at least overH an Ethernet than the default mode.  Probably much more overhead, though. But compulsory for TECO.  G It's been a very long time, but I think you type an attention character"F after you connect (ctrl/P? ctrl/]?) and then type "ODT" to the prompt.   ----  ? For the other direction, you need to specify the RTERM protocolp& instead of the default CTERM protocol:  - VMS$ set host/application_protocol=rterm RSTSs  E  > Sorry to be so vague; Last time I used this was over a decade ago.h  >  > Miket  F A millennium ago for me!  (Actually, only 1999, so you probably have a better memory than I do.)    -- h John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2005 10:58:53 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: Now that my VAX is up+ Message-ID: <3f0lfdF56qcpU1@individual.net>a  & In article <428AF916.24F13F7B@hp.com>,7 	Mike Rechtman <michael.rechtman.nospam@hp.com> writes:  > healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: >> '4 >> Stanley F. Quayle <squayle@insight.rr.com> wrote:4 >> > On 17 May 2005 at 19:39, Bill Gunshannon wrote:J >> > > I am even considering using disk space served by the VAX for my PDP< >> > > users.  Can I use DECnet-Plus or must I use Phase IV? >>  J >> > DECnet-Plus and Phase IV interoperate automatically in Phase IV mode,G >> > so I'd expect that either would work.  I'd be more concerned abouto& >> > the PDP-11 end of the connection. >> .M >> I've had DECnet-Plus on an Alpha talking to RSTS/E, and RSX-11M.  The bulknM >> of the issues I had turned out to be network related, DECnet/E can be verysN >> touchy about running over marginal ethernet.  ISTR, that there is also someH >> sort of issue if you're trying to do a SET HOST one way or the other. >> iO >> Having said that, I've not done a lot with DECnet under RSTS/E, I was mainly - >> using it to move data between RSX and VMS.l >> 1 >>                 Zaneg" > From the dim recesses of memory:I > I seem to recall that to 'SET HOST' from RSTS to VMS you have to renames) > a .TSK file in the $DECNET account from I > <something>UNSUPPORTED<something> (or similar,) to replace the originaldF > .TSK. Also from memory, this is not documented anywhere, and is just- > something 'everyone is supposed to know...'i > D > Sorry to be so vague; Last time I used this was over a decade ago. >   B As usual, all this is a big help.  I hope to share disk space fromB the StorageWorks Cabinet on the VAX with the PDP's but I also needC the ability to SET HOST at least until I come up with an IP packagecB for RSX and RSTS (I know there are IP packages, 2 I think, for RSXA but none for RSTS.  I am hoping to entice some student to take onl4 writing an IP package for RSTS as a senior project.)   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:09:32 GMTp3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)e, Subject: Re: ods 2 to ods 5 convert in place2 Message-ID: <w0Iie.5612$vj5.3187@news.cpqcorp.net>  D In article <1116360997.797249.227250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,  JimStrehlow@data911.com writes:t   >I thought I had to usew0 >BACKUP/IMAGE/CONVERT  dunn:  dunn:/noinitialize > 0 >I am glad to hear that it is as simple as that. >I am glad that I asked.  D The BACKP procedure is only needed to convert ODS-5 [back] to ODS-2.C Should you need to do this, *read* the appropriate documentation --OD there are rules about how filenames that are not ODS-2 compliant are converted to ODS-2 names.o   --  J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:57:09 -0400s4 From: "Peter Weaver" <newsgroup@weaverconsulting.ca>) Subject: Re: Problems receiving SMTP mail + Message-ID: <3f16uqF5ge9vU1@individual.net>e   JF Mezei wrote:e > Peter Weaver wrote:9G >> that there was an incoming connection from an earthlink mail server.  >> But I did not get a message.  >s >> #smtp_net_util\353c@ >> smtp_read_reply,fd=3,buf=,len=4096,cookie=1,timemin=5,timenow >> 17-MAY-2005 13:39:29.184 >> #smtp_read_reply:B4 select: vaxc$errno=1, errno=07 >> #smtp_read_reply:After select: vaxc$errno=1, errno=0i >  >i( > $DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_TRACE 1 >eG > then constantly look at the receiver log files (since they erase each E > other depending on ho wmany versions you allow). This will tell youNG > what kind of conversation happened and where the message fails in thet > SMTP protocol. >eH > You need not stop/start the mail service since the receive is an imageB > that is activated from fresh whenever a call comes into port 25.  @ Actually, what I posted was part of the log created by doing theA TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_TRACE. This part happens just after the sender is H accepted. Each of the processes that try to accept this message runs for? 2 minutes and 7 seconds, other mail messages only take seconds.h  F I also tried TCPTRACE and I see the following packet repeated over andE over, I X'd out the sender's domain. Any idea what the two ICMP lines0 mean?.   Source 192.168.2.21 53749i Destination 192.168.2.21 53i   Packet Length 80   UDP5/                                 Hex Count Ascii 9 -------- -------- -------- -------- ---- ----------------g9 1502A8C0 4AB51180 0040D7BF 50000045 0000 E..P..@....J....o= 00012156 | 4AA43C00 3500F5D1 | 1502A8C0 0010 .......5.<.JV!..e9 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx 00000000 00000100 0020 .........xxxxxxxa9 4F435245 56414557 106D6F63 03xxxxxx 0030 xxx.com.WEAVERCO 9 01000100 00414302 474E4954 4C55534E 0040 NSULTING.CA.....y7 ICMP Type = 3 UNREACH, Code = 3 PORT, Checksum = ^x82C5  ICMP Unused = 000000009 1502A8C0 3DF50140 0040D8BF 6C000045 0000 E..l..@.@..=....i= 50000045 | 00000000 C5820303 | 1502A8C0 0010 ............E..Ps9 1502A8C0 1502A8C0 4AB51180 0040D7BF 0020 ..@....J........X9 00000100 00012156 4AA43C00 3500F5D1 0030 ...5.<.JV!...... 9 03xxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx 00000000 0040 .....xxxxxxxxxx.s9 4C55534E 4F435245 56414557 106D6F63 0050 com.WEAVERCONSULu, 01000100 00414302 474E4954 0060 TING.CA.....   -- a Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.l Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAXo www.weaverconsulting.caC   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 06:02:43 -0700" From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com8 Subject: the same old SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA err, but with NCPC Message-ID: <1116421363.806440.324480@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>i   Any suggestions on this one.     in NCP  (DECNET IV)r   NCP>> SET LINE EWA-1 STATE ONi NCP-W-OPEFAI, operation failure   ( SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA, process quota exceeded NCP>>e   What can I do about this??     dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:16:23 +0200o. From: "Gorazd Kikelj" <gorazd.kikelj@siol.net>< Subject: Re: the same old SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA err, but with NCP2 Message-ID: <IeHie.12182$F6.2535204@news.siol.net>  E Raise quotas for NETACP process. Look at the logical names for NETACP  process. (RTFM DECnet manual)7   Best, Gorazd  / <dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com> wrote in messagei= news:1116421363.806440.324480@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...2 > Any suggestions on this one. >m >  > in NCP  (DECNET IV)  >  > NCP>> SET LINE EWA-1 STATE ON ! > NCP-W-OPEFAI, operation failure1 >5* > SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA, process quota exceeded > NCP>>2 >@ > What can I do about this?? >  >b > dave >t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:40:57 GMTy! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com>t Subject: Re: VMS for DS20l/SC20t8 Message-ID: <28sl815nlsmcmbvp51q73okgvu4cnd3jea@4ax.com>  9 On 17 May 2005 15:35:51 -0700, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com"s! <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote:r  D >Thanks but that's a bit out of my league.  I was just interested inF >them from a hobbyist's point of view.  The reason I asked was becauseG >for the last month someone has been selling them on Ebay for about $1KaH >each - quite a bargain for a dual 833Mhz EV6 (EV67?) with 1GB of memoryE >and 36GB SCSI disk.  Also there were 3 with 2GB of memory which went>G >for just over $1K as a group.  Far cheaper than the usual for anything ( >with a CPU newer than a EV56.  Oh well.  F If you are interested in a cheap Hobbyist system Island Computers haveH bare-bones 466MHz EV6 DS10L for $250. http://www.islandco.com/ds10l.html   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 03:57:11 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>i Subject: Re: VMS for DS20l/SC20yC Message-ID: <1116413831.369422.270900@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Nigel Barker wrote:e; > On 17 May 2005 15:35:51 -0700, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" # > <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote:  > F > >Thanks but that's a bit out of my league.  I was just interested in@ > >them from a hobbyist's point of view.  The reason I asked was becausedE > >for the last month someone has been selling them on Ebay for abouts $1KrC > >each - quite a bargain for a dual 833Mhz EV6 (EV67?) with 1GB of  memoryG > >and 36GB SCSI disk.  Also there were 3 with 2GB of memory which wenth@ > >for just over $1K as a group.  Far cheaper than the usual for anything* > >with a CPU newer than a EV56.  Oh well. >sC > If you are interested in a cheap Hobbyist system Island Computers  have' > bare-bones 466MHz EV6 DS10L for $250.g" http://www.islandco.com/ds10l.html >e > -- > Nigel Barker! > Live from the sunny Cote d'Azurn  B Yes. I've been keeping my eye on them as replacements for my AS800 cluster.  @ In hindsight, I think I should have made a grab for that trio ofG machines.  Even if I didn't get the integration for VMS done they wouldhD have made a heck of a Tru-64 cluster with Oracle 10g so I could play with an Oracle grid.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:36:27 GMT>1 From: drwho8__NOTME__@att.net (The Eighth Doctor): Subject: VS3100M76 question1H Message-ID: <LnBie.782696$w62.449535@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>   Hello from the Eighth DoctorQ I have here a rather cranky VS3100M76. It was sent to me by a fellow I know from  V overseas. I'm in the process of trying to set it up, for VMS. However it doesn't have N a CDROM drive, only a hard drive. It looks to be its original. Nor is there a Q terminator attached to the port for the expansion box. Would anyone have a spare n6 one? Physical address upon request via private e-mail.  N Next question, what are the methods for installing an internal CDROM drive? I O received instructions from someone else via the same resource that provided me oV with the VS, however there seems to be something gained in translation. I don't think Q I understand the instructions. If that's not currently possible, then what about nO borrowing an expansion unit, (One CDROM drive)? I am based in the NYC area, so h that requirement is a plus.  -----t Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot netXJ "This signature would rather sleep and eat, then do almost anything else."   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:51:49 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>c Subject: Re: VS3100M76 questiont, Message-ID: <428AE603.A7D42D91@teksavvy.com>   The Eighth Doctor wrote:N > Next question, what are the methods for installing an internal CDROM drive?   G I have a 3100 model 30. What I did was to crimp a SCSI connector on the G SCSI ribbon cable. Used the power for the diskette drive. Deposited the F CDrom drive on top of the topless unit, and was able to install VMS on0 it. Not a permanent installation, but it worked.  E the other way is to use anothet vms system as boot node, and boot the-E 3100 via ethernet into a cluster and then backup the B saveset to the 
 3100's drive.   H you then need to look at the sysgen parameters stored on the 3100 system7 (from the B saveset) and take note of the startup file.-  F Copy the 3100's sysgen parameters stored in the 3100's system specificH directory on the boot node to the hard drive of the 3100. And then applyE the startup file you jotted down from the B save set config. You alsoaE need to copy the cluster password file. Also make sure the 3100 has an. different allocation class from the other node  G You can then boot the 3100. It will boot as a member of the cluster andnE thus have access to the other node's drives, and will execute the VMSlG installation continuation. When it asks for the device name, just entereF the fully qualified (eg: $x$yyyy: ) device name of the cd drive on the2 other node and then the VMS install will continue.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 01:16:16 -07001 From: "Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl" <Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl>  Subject: Re: VS3100M76 questionsC Message-ID: <1116404176.163966.249120@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E The only 3100M76 that I know has space for three internal SCSI disks, D no floppy and no CDROM. It has two SCSI busses, one for the internalF disks and one for external devices. If you do not connect any external? devices, it will not complain about a missing terminator on thel
 external bus.h  F For the initial installation of VMS I would follow JF's advice, except= that the crimping of an extra connector can be omitted if youw* temporarily remove one of the fixed disks.  F Be aware that some of the older disks do get pretty hot when they haveE to run for a prolonged time with the cover removed. The cover provider- for a better guided airflow around the disks.D   HTH,  	 Bart Zornr   JF Mezei wrote:u > The Eighth Doctor wrote:B > > Next question, what are the methods for installing an internal CDROM drive? >IE > I have a 3100 model 30. What I did was to crimp a SCSI connector one the(E > SCSI ribbon cable. Used the power for the diskette drive. Depositedw thegE > CDrom drive on top of the topless unit, and was able to install VMS  on2 > it. Not a permanent installation, but it worked. >iG > the other way is to use anothet vms system as boot node, and boot thelG > 3100 via ethernet into a cluster and then backup the B saveset to thes > 3100's drive.  >eC > you then need to look at the sysgen parameters stored on the 3100d system9 > (from the B saveset) and take note of the startup file.a >t? > Copy the 3100's sysgen parameters stored in the 3100's systemm specificD > directory on the boot node to the hard drive of the 3100. And then applyfG > the startup file you jotted down from the B save set config. You alsoMG > need to copy the cluster password file. Also make sure the 3100 has a'0 > different allocation class from the other node >iE > You can then boot the 3100. It will boot as a member of the clustery andeG > thus have access to the other node's drives, and will execute the VMS5C > installation continuation. When it asks for the device name, justc enteriD > the fully qualified (eg: $x$yyyy: ) device name of the cd drive on then4 > other node and then the VMS install will continue.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.276 ************************r.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.s^~N#xvNrƶmrdiۺ/mm~?94[-g4@*cA_?\TFdHB!b:X.ۧ@	8IH12j:b1̪sNi;00_g|X-aVX'di8AWD}/ZV\4"i5]~d+TUx`K@`H`CX-&"#
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