1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 19 May 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 277       Contents:1 Are there any original terminals for sale? Still? 5 Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still? 5 Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still? , Re: Backup /owner=original /overlay question, Re: Backup /owner=original /overlay question) Re: backup save set transport and restore ) Re: backup save set transport and restore , Re: DO HLP HLD BRK PRN and other keymappings Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results J Re: INFO-VAX 2005.262Re: Powerstorm graphics w/ VMS -- and OpenGL, anyone?$ Re: Kill multiple processes by name?1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising & NBS prgm not connecting to time server* Re: NBS prgm not connecting to time server Re: Now that my VAX is up   Now what do I do? (Rather long")$ Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")$ Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")$ Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")$ Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")$ Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")$ Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")  OT: Ottelini takes over at Intel  Re: Problems receiving SMTP mail  Re: Problems receiving SMTP mail  Re: Problems receiving SMTP mail3 Re: the same old SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA err, but with NCP  Valid IP Address Re: Valid IP Address Re: Valid IP Address  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:37:50 GMT 1 From: drwho8__NOTME__@att.net (The Eighth Doctor) : Subject: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still?H Message-ID: <ilQie.787107$w62.669465@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>   Hello from the Eighth DoctorV For any number of reasons, despite the fact that Kermit does splendidly at playing at # being a VT320, I'd like to buy one.   M Does anyone know of any VT320s still be sold out there? Or being given away?  D Remember for physical transactions I'm based in the Queens NYC area. ---- Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot net    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:11:54 -0400 - From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still?7 Message-ID: <8660a3a1050518171141615828@mail.gmail.com>   > On 5/18/05, The Eighth Doctor <drwho8__NOTME__@att.net> wrote: > Hello from the Eighth DoctorL > For any number of reasons, despite the fact that Kermit does splendidly a= t playing at% > being a VT320, I'd like to buy one.  >=20L > Does anyone know of any VT320s still be sold out there? Or being given aw= ay? F > Remember for physical transactions I'm based in the Queens NYC area. > ----! > Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot net  >=20 >=20   Numerous resellers sell them.   B I can personally attest to the honesty and good character of David7 Turner with Island Computers.  http://www.islandco.com/   ; If you want a new terminal, look up Boundless Technologies.    HTH=20   WWWebb --=20 C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------   Date: 19 May 2005 02:08:10 GMT) From: Hans Bachner <Hans@Bachner.priv.at> > Subject: Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still?0 Message-ID: <d6h3en.7f.1@usenet.bachner.priv.at>  2 The Eighth Doctor <drwho8__NOTME__@att.net> wrote:   <snip>> > For any number of reasons, despite the fact that Kermit does> > splendidly at playing at being a VT320, I'd like to buy one. > H > Does anyone know of any VT320s still be sold out there? Or being given > away?  <snip>  J Well, VT320s haven't been built for a long time - but VT510/520/525 still ' are. Check out http://www.boundless.com    Hope this helps, Hans.    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:53:58 +0000 (UTC) . From: klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)5 Subject: Re: Backup /owner=original /overlay question . Message-ID: <d6g306$mpk$5@newslocal.mitre.org>   norm.raphael@metso.com writes in article <OF21D1A15E.11A16E7A-ON85257005.005BA6BC-85257005.005C5127@metso.com> dated Wed, 18 May 2005 12:50:04 -0400: + >So what about /OVERLAY for directory files 5 >and what about /OWNER=ORIGINAL/OVERLAY for directory  >files in a case like this?   K The directory files are not actually copied by BACKUP.  They are created as I needed when other files are created.  I noticed this when moving the user J disk, where each user owns the directory DISK$USER:[USER]username.DIR;1.  I On the new disk, the ownership of DISK$USER:[000000]USER.DIR;1 changed to 1 the guy whose directory was first alphabetically!   H The only exception I know of is BACKUP/IMAGE, which does store directoryK ownership info.  (Well, BACKUP/PHYSICAL probably does too, but I don't know  anybody who uses that.)   0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 13:23:59 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>5 Subject: Re: Backup /owner=original /overlay question C Message-ID: <1116447838.964402.116160@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Keith A. Lewis wrote: * > norm.raphael@metso.com writes in articleE <OF21D1A15E.11A16E7A-ON85257005.005BA6BC-85257005.005C5127@metso.com> & dated Wed, 18 May 2005 12:50:04 -0400:- > >So what about /OVERLAY for directory files 7 > >and what about /OWNER=ORIGINAL/OVERLAY for directory  > >files in a case like this?  > B > The directory files are not actually copied by BACKUP.  They are
 created asF > needed when other files are created.  I noticed this when moving the user* > disk, where each user owns the directory DISK$USER:[USER]username.DIR;1. @ > On the new disk, the ownership of DISK$USER:[000000]USER.DIR;1
 changed to3 > the guy whose directory was first alphabetically!  > @ > The only exception I know of is BACKUP/IMAGE, which does store	 directory B > ownership info.  (Well, BACKUP/PHYSICAL probably does too, but I
 don't know > anybody who uses that.)       There's also BACKUP/INCREMENTAL.  G Re BACKUP/PHYSICAL, I can't imagine that ownerships would change (well,  UIC's, anyway).    > 2 > --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org@ > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:39:51 +0000 (UTC) . From: klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)2 Subject: Re: backup save set transport and restore. Message-ID: <d6g25n$mpk$4@newslocal.mitre.org>   Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net> writes in article <BEB084A7.E184%roktsci@comcast.net> dated Wed, 18 May 2005 05:35:35 -0700: I >Concerning the proper file attributes of the backup saveset, the command / >procedure FIXSAVESET.COM located at this link: 0 >http://support.mti.com/VMS2005cd/fixsaveset.htmL >Reads the backup header and sets the file attributes to the proper settings >including the block size. > M >While the procedure will take care of your file attribute issues, I doubt it  >will correct the crc error.  / I found that with gzip, what you need to do is:    * set file/attr=rfm:stmlf  * gzip * move the file  * gunzip2 * restore the original attributes (FIXSAVESET.COM)  G Gzip assumes stream-lf, so if you don't set it to that, you'll get a LF 5 character inserted after the end of each real record.   L A co-worker developed some DCL procedures (SQUEEZE.COM and UNSQUEEZE.COM) to+ deal with this.  Free copy if you want 'em.   0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:43:08 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)2 Subject: Re: backup save set transport and restore2 Message-ID: <05051813430801_2860027B@antinode.org>  ! From: "Nazim" <nmanser@progis.de>   G > if the programms cant read larger files than 2/4 GB i would expect an 3 > error message, thats why i trusted the -t option.   E    The small-file versions of the not-yet-released Info-ZIP Zip 3 and D UnZip 6 should do this better, but you're asking the old programs toH work well in environment which did not exist when they were written.  It( would be nice, but it's a lot to expect.  I > the problem was that the 2 sites are far from each other, and i used an G > external USB hard drive for transport, so thats why i had to copy the 8 > zipfiles from VMS to a windows PC with that USB drive. > [...]   D    Ah.  I had imagined a network connection of some kind (other than
 sneaker-net).   ; > i have repeated the test with a backup saveset of 4,57 GB D > then i extracted the checksum, zipped it,ftpted it unzipped it andC > checked the size (same as before 4,57 GB) and checksum (different  > value)      4,57 GB > 4GB.   H > i have gzipped it with gzip -v -9 then gzip -d the result is worse, it > corrupted the backup file   H    4,57 GB > 4GB, still.  And you can expect anything coming out of gzip< to be stream-LF, so its attrbutes would need to be restored.  E > ***  VBN 9598428:  Last stream record does not contain a delimiter. 7 > Unrecoverable error encountered in structure of file.   @ But it should do better than that, at least if if size < 2GB.  IC wouldn't trust any of these programs on files over 2GB without some H testing.  (And if I got good results on files over 4GB, I wouldn't trustD the test.)  BACKUP /LIST on the final result is a good test.  BACKUPD /COMPARE on the save sets (before and after) should be pretty close,8 too.  (The end of the last block might be a little off.)  I    You make a good argument for trying the new (beta) Info-ZIP programs.  G I'm pretty sure that the easy-to-find beta kits are too old to have any F code for ODS5 file names, so BACKUP-Zip-X-UnZip-BACKUP is still a goodC method.  I'd still try it first on the original VMS system before I  bought a train ticket, however.   E    The good news is that the new UnZip on VMS should have faster file < I/O than that old one.  (UnZip 5.52 got those changes, too.)  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:53:54 -0000 / From: Thomas Dickey <dickey@saltmine.radix.net> 5 Subject: Re: DO HLP HLD BRK PRN and other keymappings 0 Message-ID: <118nebitfnerq7a@corp.supernews.com>  E In comp.terminals David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: I >> agreed - the host doesn't know enough to use the terminal efficiently.  >>  5 >> > So, the behavior will be terminal/type-specific.  >>  J >> right - smgterms.txt doesn't tell as much as termcap or terminfo would.  B > Can you cite some items from termcap that smgterms lacks? ...and
 > vice-versa?   H Well, mostly I see different syntax.  Ignoring that, the differences are8 based on the types of terminals that they're supporting.  F smgterms has a few predefined items for which there is no conventional* termcap setting, e.g., (reading smgterms):  =         width_narrow = "$[?3l",         width_wide = "$[?3h",   B noting however, that termcap's capability list is not predefined -D applications use conventions.  terminfo usually (except for ncurses)@ uses wholly predefined capabilities, like smgterms.  Most of the< data I see in smgterms corresponds 1-1 with termcap/terminfo@ capabilities.  Some that do not are the names given to the vt100 line-drawing characters, e.g.,  ;         upper_right_corner = "k",       vertical_bar = "x",   > but that's part of the ac (termcap) or acsc (terminfo) string.  G smgterms has predefined names for (no surprise) the application mode of  the DEC vt100 numeric keypad:   < 	key_0 = "$Op", key_1 = "$Oq", key_2 = "$Or", key_3 = "$Os",< 	key_4 = "$Ot", key_5 = "$Ou", key_6 = "$Ov", key_7 = "$Ow", 	key_8 = "$Ox", key_9 = "$Oy",D 	key_comma = "$Ol",      key_minus = "$Om",      key_period = "$On",A 	key_enter = "$OM",      key_pf1 = "$OP",        key_pf2 = "$OQ", H 	key_pf3 = "$OR",        key_pf4 = "$OS",        key_down_arrow = "$[B",  D So generally what smgterms has that termcap doesn't have is a lot of: names for things that apply specifically to DEC terminals.  D termcap/terminfo have settings to handle cases that do not appear on: DEC terminals, e.g., (bce is the flag I mentioned before):  X      back_color_erase            bce       be        Screen erased with background colorX      can_change                  ccc       cc        Terminal  can  re-define   existing:                                                      colorX      ceol_standout_glitch        xhp       xs        Standout not erased by  overwriting9                                                      (hp) X      has_meta_key                km        km        Has a meta key (shift, sets  parity9                                                      bit) Q       hue_lightness_saturation   hls       hl        Terminal uses only HLS color I                                                      notation (Tektronix)   G I don't see any setting in smgterms that's telling the number of colors E the terminal supports.  There are some apparent afterthoughts such as   :         begin_user1 = "$[30m",          end_user1 = "$[m",3 	begin_user2 = "$[34m",          end_user2 = "$[m",   L Comparing it only against terminfo, I don't see (at first) any indication inD smgterms that it supports expressions such as terminfo's sgr string:  P 	sgr=\E[0%?%p1%p6%|%t;1%;%?%p2%t;4%;%?%p1%p3%|%t;7%;%?%p4%t;5%;m%?%p9%t^N%e^O%;,  E so what I'm mostly seeing in smgterms is comparable to termcap, i.e., 0 plugging in parameters based on position, e.g.,   ) 	set_cursor_abs = "$[!UL;!ULH",		smgterms  	:cm=\E[%i%d;%dH:			termcap " 	cup=\E[%i%p1%d;%p2%dH,			terminfo  L But that reminds me that vt52 wouldn't work with only positional parameters. I see this:   . 	SET_CURSOR_ABS = '$Y(%1+31)(%2+31)',	smgterms 	:cm=\EY%+ %+ :				termcap) 	cup=\EY%p1%' '%+%c%p2%' '%+%c,		terminfo   H So smgterms does have some expression capability (not used much - I only" see it used in the vt52 and vt55).     --   Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net  ftp://invisible-island.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:13:01 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results, Message-ID: <428B93BD.CA69F3F4@teksavvy.com>   Keith Parris wrote: F > Given HP's product mix compared with IBM's and Dell's, the R&D spend > number looks about right.   - Didn't HP brag about reduced R&D spending ?     C In the case of VMS, isn't all of VMS engineering considered "R&D" ?   H Reduced R&D spending measn no VAX version, no improvements de decwindowsE and bare bones improvements for VMS because they are still busiy with E that IA64 port. Reduced R&D spending also means lenghtier port to the . 8086 (assuming it has already covertly begun).   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:47:27 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com>  Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results2 Message-ID: <3CPie.5664$fK5.3097@news.cpqcorp.net>   John Smith wrote: M > Last year both Intel and Cisco's R&D was 13.97% of total sales (Intel's was  > over 15% in 2002). > A > Both IBM and HP in years gone-by had R&D well over 8% of sales.  >  > So what's your point again?   G Intel has to build multi-billion dollar fabs on a continuing basis. HP  H doesn't have to do that anymore. So its R&D spending can be lower. That B was the whole point of using commodity microprocessors instead of D continuing to roll-your-own, and is likely one factor why IBM's R&D  costs are higher than HP's.   E I think Cisco's number there looks pretty high, and may include some  B inefficiencies due to their historically-strong (almost-monopoly) E position in IP routers, and could put them at risk to lower-overhead   competitors.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:53:03 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com>  Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results2 Message-ID: <jHPie.5665$JK5.3750@news.cpqcorp.net>   John Smith wrote: L > Dell is a supply-chain management company with advertising that happens to3 > sell technology, not a technology company per se.    Well-stated. --- C Looks like Wall Street has reacted very positively to HP's numbers.   . AP: "HP Shares Climb After Earnings Top Views"? http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050518/earns_hewlett_packard.html?.v=11   2 TheStreet.com: "H-P Shares Rise on Hurd Honeymoon"c http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/tech/chriskraeuter/10224059.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA   , Business Week: "HP Gains on Higher Earnings"P http://yahoo.businessweek.com/investor/content/may2005/pi20050518_8833_pi004.htm   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:31:32 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results, Message-ID: <428BD04D.D5DAFAF5@teksavvy.com>   Keith Parris wrote: F > I think Cisco's number there looks pretty high, and may include someC > inefficiencies due to their historically-strong (almost-monopoly) F > position in IP routers, and could put them at risk to lower-overhead > competitors.    E Prior to .com boom, Nortel had lowered its R&D spending, and within 2 F years was doing really bad because its products lagged behind those ofG Lucent.  It ousted its then chairman, restored R&D and got healthy just O in time to ride the .com boom (and erred with that one too by going overboard).   E If you're going to be commodity product, it is true that R&D isn't as G important. You are only differentiated from competitors with production D and distribution costs. HP isn't very good on both of those aspects.  G In terms of Cisco, it sells premium products with features not found on H cheap routers. And in order to maintain its edge on those cheap routers,@ it needs to spend much on R&D to constantly improve its product.  H Look at VMS. The lack of true R&D has caused most competitors to surpassE or nearly meet the huge leads that VMS used to have in GUI, security, F clustering. The VMS engineers have been stuck in ports for much of the@ last decade as well as long periods with stagnating development.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:05:11 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results0 Message-ID: <118nm089ih06099@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Keith Parris wrote:  > F >>Given HP's product mix compared with IBM's and Dell's, the R&D spend >>number looks about right.  >  > / > Didn't HP brag about reduced R&D spending ?    > E > In the case of VMS, isn't all of VMS engineering considered "R&D" ?   F Well, it is development, but not the R&D that's far out there looking  past the edge.  I Before there was EV7, EV8, and yes, EV10 (well, sort of), there was pure  $ research to develope new techniques.  G Dell does none of this.  At the most, they may bolt together different  A products to see if they'll work well together before declaring a  9 product, but that's not R&D that comes up with new ideas.   J > Reduced R&D spending measn no VAX version, no improvements de decwindowsG > and bare bones improvements for VMS because they are still busiy with G > that IA64 port. Reduced R&D spending also means lenghtier port to the 0 > 8086 (assuming it has already covertly begun).  D Not really.  What you're describing is refusal to fund advances and : improvements in an existing product.  And it is a problem.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:21:23 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results, Message-ID: <gZidnQ18NNCCdxbfRVn-iQ@igs.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  > G > If you're going to be commodity product, it is true that R&D isn't as > > important. You are only differentiated from competitors with > productionF > and distribution costs. HP isn't very good on both of those aspects.   True but not complete:  I You are also differentiated from your competitors by your advertising and J marketing efforts which are designed to position your 'value statement' toK prospective customers. A we all know too well, HP's advertising & marketing 4 of the things that truly add value has been abysmal.      F > In terms of Cisco, it sells premium products with features not found > onA > cheap routers. And in order to maintain its edge on those cheap 
 > routers,B > it needs to spend much on R&D to constantly improve its product. > B > Look at VMS. The lack of true R&D has caused most competitors to	 > surpass G > or nearly meet the huge leads that VMS used to have in GUI, security, H > clustering. The VMS engineers have been stuck in ports for much of theB > last decade as well as long periods with stagnating development.  F Even so, a value-oriented advertising campaign for VMS would have beenK useful. We all know people who used to be in the VMS world, who still think C that it's a great os, and who are now in positions where they could I influencve purchaes of VMS if they only knew it was alive/keeping up with  the Jones's.     --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:13:09 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results0 Message-ID: <118o81ith00pl49@corp.supernews.com>   John Smith wrote:  > JF Mezei wrote:  > G >>If you're going to be commodity product, it is true that R&D isn't as > >>important. You are only differentiated from competitors with >>productionF >>and distribution costs. HP isn't very good on both of those aspects. >  >  > True but not complete: > K > You are also differentiated from your competitors by your advertising and L > marketing efforts which are designed to position your 'value statement' toM > prospective customers. A we all know too well, HP's advertising & marketing 6 > of the things that truly add value has been abysmal. >  >  >  > F >>In terms of Cisco, it sells premium products with features not found >>onA >>cheap routers. And in order to maintain its edge on those cheap 
 >>routers,B >>it needs to spend much on R&D to constantly improve its product. >>B >>Look at VMS. The lack of true R&D has caused most competitors to	 >>surpass G >>or nearly meet the huge leads that VMS used to have in GUI, security, H >>clustering. The VMS engineers have been stuck in ports for much of theB >>last decade as well as long periods with stagnating development. >  > H > Even so, a value-oriented advertising campaign for VMS would have beenM > useful. We all know people who used to be in the VMS world, who still think E > that it's a great os, and who are now in positions where they could K > influencve purchaes of VMS if they only knew it was alive/keeping up with  > the Jones's.  F Well, there's a fly in that ointment.  After the people who put their @ reputations on the line in a 2001 timeframe, and got deepfried, ) observers of that will be rather careful.   E I'm aware that some people don't like to hear this subject.  Well it  I happened.  It happened to people with long memories, and was observed by  F more people with long memories.  Fool me once maybe, not twice.  That A will be the attitude.  The advertising will have to be good, and   protracted, and convincing.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:16:04 -0400  From: "DavidT" <david@hpaq.net> S Subject: Re: INFO-VAX 2005.262Re: Powerstorm graphics w/ VMS -- and OpenGL, anyone? 0 Message-ID: <118nifpp5ffjo03@news.supernews.com>  3 well we have the sn-pbxgb-ca 4d20 pci card for $249  With 1 yr warranty   dt   --   Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Suite 180  Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 4476622 Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com     3 "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in message - news:002401c55797$b2881c70$994614ac@wat153...  > Hello, > F > The PowerStorm 4D20 is an excellent but expensive 3D graphic adapter= > with an connector for shutter classes for 3d visualization.  >  > Best regards R. Wingert  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:42:54 -0500 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon)- Subject: Re: Kill multiple processes by name? 1 Message-ID: <05051819425453@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   ' DeanW [dean.woodward@gmail.com] WRITES: Q > I've just had someone banging away, trying to break in via SSH. While I shut it I > off at the firewall (after 980 failures- just a couple past VMS setting H > intruder status, heh...), there are still a couple hundred dropped SSHP > processes that I wish I could clear out. Is there a tool that can kill a group? > of processes based on a wild-carded name, such as TCPIP$SS_*?   M You may want to search for PSTAT - it is a C application that has some useful N built in tools - at least from what I have seen.  I used this application as aN reference when I built my own process status applicaiton in FORTRAN.  It wouldG not be that difficult to use $GETJPI and $SCAN_PROCESS to find and kill 2 processes based on command input.  Just a thought.     John "REBOOT" Brandon  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2005 17:59:27 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f1e3tF5ffenU1@individual.net>   3 In article <L7fx0uCGk9+7@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:X > In article <3f1582F57ng4U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:6 >> In article <6G8u$1M+gV4s@eisner.encompasserve.org>,3 >> 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  > N >>>> Why?  Just what does the Mac GUI have to offer that can't be found in any >>>> other X11 GUI?  >>> N >>> Mac's can run an X11 server, but I do not believe the native GUI uses X11. >>   >> Didn't answer my question.  > 2 > The question "any other X11 GUI" was ill-formed.  D How so?  I merely wanted to know what you can do with a Mac GUI that9 I can't with (let's make it simple and stick to one) KDE.    > G >> But, getting back to the GUI, what does it do that any other doesn't G >> do?  If nothing is left that is specifically Mac beyond the GUI what  >> is the advantage? >>  O >>> To see what it is like, take a look in a showroom at your nearest retailer.  >>  & >> Hardly seems worth the time or gas. > H > But well worth asking me to retype what has been published in the past > 12 months of reviews ?  G Well, reviews written by Mac religious fanatics will sing it's praises. F No one else will have anything to say about it.  Kind of like asking aI Linux fanatic if BSD is better.  Of course, if you go into a Mac reseller H there won;t be any bias there.  (Would remind me of going into the localH place that used to sell Amigas.  "Best computer ever made!!"  Of course,* they don't seem to be around much anymore.   >   >> But I already know what a Mac >> looks like. >  > So why ask the question ?   E Because I'm not claiming my GUI can do stuff someone else's can't do. E I'm claiming that preference is purely religious and not based on any E technical merit.  You claimed otherwise.  You said the Mac GUI can do : things that other X11 GUI's can't.  I await enlightenment.   > % >> I have a number of pre-Power Macs.  > J > So therefore you do _not_ know what a contemporary Macintosh looks like.  J No, that was only meant to show that I have been using Macs since the daysK when they and X11 were the only GUI game in town.  I was not impressed then I and I am not today.  I just gave the Mac my boss had in the computer room I to another faculty member because I couldn't think of anything I could do I with it. (It was bought specifically because of a backup package that was J supposed to run on it but the Mac implementation of NFS is broken so badly3 enough that it is unusable for even that one task.)   G Sorry if I seem to be trying to burst someone's bubble, but I have used C a lot of different comoputer systems in my career and I see nothing D special about the Mac.  And sicen it went Unix underneath, it is nowF even less different than before.  It may be that they actually gave up4 some of what might have made them worth considering.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2005 18:12:55 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f1et6F5ffenU2@individual.net>   3 In article <pS14Gy4BSgSq@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:X > In article <3f15cbF57ng4U2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:6 >> In article <EjmQfph6cJkw@eisner.encompasserve.org>,3 >> 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  > I >>> On the contrary, Classic Mac OS was much more secure than MacOS X has H >>> turned out to be.  There have been various reported Internet breakinH >>> techniques for MacOS X, while the older MacOS only had such servicesF >>> as specifically requested by the system manager.  It was chosen byB >>> the US Army as the best safeguarded platform for a web server. >>  H >> You gat a reference for that?  I do IT for the Army and just returnedF >> from a school that covered pretty much everything the Army is doing0 >> today and there was no mention of Mac at all. > 5 > You are the one who used the present tense "today". . > I was the one who used the past tense "was".G > Regarding your request for Google assistance, I get 644,000 hits with  > G > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=macintosh+army+web   D OK, I bit.  It seems to be a whole bunch of people all reporting theB same story from 1999.  I doubt it was true then (that the Army wasB moving all it's web servers to Macs) and I know it isn't true now.  B I use AKO everyday.  It ain't running on a Mac and hasn't been for  as long as I have been using it.  C Not everything google finds is real.  I was expecting some official # reference from someone like DISCOM.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:18:52 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> : Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising, Message-ID: <428B951B.289CE469@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  F > But, getting back to the GUI, what does it do that any other doesn'tF > do?  If nothing is left that is specifically Mac beyond the GUI what > is the advantage?      Does VMS do Quicktime ?  Does VMS do Flash ? G Does VMS have the ability to record and play NTSC/PAL video ? (MAC will  soon have HDTV capability).   G Does VMS's decade old X11/Motif have as rich as set of built-in widgets  as does the Apple GUI ?   H At the server level, go to the apple web site and check out their serverC offering. It is pretty impressive. So, it may not be the best for a E terabyte database, but for average server operations, it is rich with ( applications and software pre-installed.  F VMS hasn't had any GUI improvements in ages. It may have been ahead ofB Windows back in the early 1990s when Motif came to the scene, (andF before that with pure decwindows), but the rest of the world has moved on since. VMS hasn't.v   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 14:22:03 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)s: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <CyxjFY7yIvJB@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  V In article <3f1cvbF5gm53U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:5 > In article <V7x$47F2eXfT@eisner.encompasserve.org>,w@ > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:Y >> In article <3f0uclF5ehlhU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >>> M >>> Why?  Just what does the Mac GUI have to offer that can't be found in anye >>> other X11 GUI? >> a0 >>    The Mac GUI has always been more useable,  > H > Here we go again.  Matter of opinion, based solely on religous belief.  I No, based on actually having seen it, an experience you admit to lacking.d   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 2005 19:56:05 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f1kujF5gfrvU1@individual.net>e  3 In article <CyxjFY7yIvJB@eisner.encompasserve.org>,g0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:X > In article <3f1cvbF5gm53U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:6 >> In article <V7x$47F2eXfT@eisner.encompasserve.org>,A >> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:lZ >>> In article <3f0uclF5ehlhU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>> aN >>>> Why?  Just what does the Mac GUI have to offer that can't be found in any >>>> other X11 GUI?  >>> 1 >>>    The Mac GUI has always been more useable, - >> -I >> Here we go again.  Matter of opinion, based solely on religous belief.r > K > No, based on actually having seen it, an experience you admit to lacking.n  E I admit no such thing.  I said I mentioned the older Macs to show howoB long I have been associated with the Mac as well as other systems.E I just gave away a brand new, current technology (I can get the model F number of you want it) Mac because it could not do anything I couldn't do better with something else.  I Make it simple.  Tell me what you what you can do on the Mac that I can'tN do on another system.r   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:54:48 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>u: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising, Message-ID: <428B9D85.AD0F8970@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:H > outside the GUI.  How would you add 500 users to a Mac?  Oh wait, it's+ > really just a single user box, isn't it.)b  G Nop. MACs can act as servers. And while prior to X, there was no formal=B shell, there was applescript which allowed you to use an editor to4 generate "commands/events" sent to an application.    M > Maybe I'll see if I can find some students interested enough to try portingo > KDE to VMS  F This would require VMS engineering to open up the proprietary portionsF of X on VMS, and one engineer did state here recently that there wouldD be no business case to justify all the expense of doing so. In otherE words: there is no willingness to allow VMS to regrow its GUI because/) they don't see any business need for it. -  H (lack of vision, lack of leadership). VMS could be riding the Linux waveH if it had the ability to get Linux GUI software easily ported to VMS andD grow its GUI for very little cost.  Linux is getting PDF reader fromE Adobe. VMS isn't.  That is one hell of a big failing of VMS since itsiE own documentation is now spread between booreader, PDF which can't be A used properly on VMS, and HTML which isn't quite as usable as the 8 bookreader, or a read PDF reader (with bookmarks/index).      L > Why?  Specifically, what can the Mac GUI do that KDE can't (something that6 > someone other than a Mac fanatic might find useful!)  E Actually, it isn't so black and white as you ask. Both can copy/paste D for instance. But the MAC may have more instances where you can makeG multiple selections.  The MAC has more litttle tricks to make it easieroF to get to documents or to the right folder. The MAC has more automated5 and sophisticated icon management systems for files. >  F Just because Linux can get you there doesn't mean it can get you there; more easily, and in better style and more pleasant journey.e  0 > Pure religion.  No observable technical merit.  > Perhaps. Let me compare a bad experience I had with PSION PDA:  H The Series 3 from early 1990s is a neat PDA that is all keyboard driven,@ and not quite GUI due to lack of "mouse/pointer" device. But the@ designers focused entirely on usability, minimise keystrokes andG position those keys so that it is easy to get stiff done while standing  up and holding your PDA.  ? Then, PSION went about to design the Series 5. It had plenty ofeC features, full GUI which the series 3 didn't have. And while It was E probably just a demo to showcase the OS's feature so PSION could sellbG the OS to the mobile phone companies, it had plenty of compromises that-C made it far less usable than the Series 3. For instrance, "SAVE AS"aG required you went through a hierachical menu in the "FILE menu, insteadoA of putting it directly in FILE.  There was no way to exit withoutcC saving, so you had to "REVERT TO SAVE" and then "SAVE" to exit. AndtH keystrokes to exit were very hard to do while holding the device in yourE hands. I could go on an on and on about it.  BTW, the first thing theoF mobile phone companies did when they got EPOC/Symbian was to ditch the
 GUI layer.  C Why do I say this ? Because usability is often very hard to measurepE based on features. On paper, the Series 5 was far superior because itaE had far more features. But in real life, the trusted old Series 3 wassR far more usable as a PDA even though it was less powerfull and had fewer features.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:12:54 GMT 9 From: Bob Harris <nospam.News.Bob@remove.Smith-Harris.us>i: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertisingD Message-ID: <nospam.News.Bob-7F48DA.20125518052005@news.verizon.net>  3 In article <7xOU080Fh2JK@eisner.encompasserve.org>,N=  koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:l  L > In article <EjmQfph6cJkw@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net  > (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  > > I > > On the contrary, Classic Mac OS was much more secure than MacOS X has-H > > turned out to be.  There have been various reported Internet breakinH > > techniques for MacOS X, while the older MacOS only had such servicesF > > as specifically requested by the system manager.  It was chosen byB > > the US Army as the best safeguarded platform for a web server. > @ >    Anyone can turn off services.  Classis Mac OS had no memoryA >    protection, and early on went through lots of virii.  If youEK >    don't protect memory, you don't stop a hacker from changing your data.m  I As I recall, it was under 100 virii from 1984 through today.  If that is s lots of virii, so be it.  2                                         Bob Harris   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:20:27 -0400h' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> : Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising0 Message-ID: <118nmsn58pej1ba@corp.supernews.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  G > You gat a reference for that?  I do IT for the Army and just returnedaE > from a school that covered pretty much everything the Army is doingo/ > today and there was no mention of Mac at all.w  ? Perhaps the Army has been subverted by the borg or the penguin?   G I seem to remember that one class you talked about had a rather biased y and unknowledgable instructor?   -- -4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadn Vanderbilt, PA  15486m   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 22:27:20 -0400+ From: "Joe Heimann" <heimann@ecs.umass.edu>,: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <428bf988@news-1.oit.umass.edu>   : Bob Harris <nospam.News.Bob@remove.smith-harris.us> wrote:5 > In article <7xOU080Fh2JK@eisner.encompasserve.org>,i? >  koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:e  M >> In article <EjmQfph6cJkw@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net a >> (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> > nJ >> > On the contrary, Classic Mac OS was much more secure than MacOS X hasI >> > turned out to be.  There have been various reported Internet breakinoI >> > techniques for MacOS X, while the older MacOS only had such servicestG >> > as specifically requested by the system manager.  It was chosen bytC >> > the US Army as the best safeguarded platform for a web server.B >>  A >>    Anyone can turn off services.  Classis Mac OS had no memoryiB >>    protection, and early on went through lots of virii.  If youL >>    don't protect memory, you don't stop a hacker from changing your data.  K > As I recall, it was under 100 virii from 1984 through today.  If that is e > lots of virii, so be it.  4 >                                         Bob Harris  E Most of the holes in the Mac OS that allowed virii to be done existedtH in the OS's prior to System 7.  That version closed off most of the waysI a virus could spread, so few date after that came out in the early '90's.l    Joe Heimann   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 22:26:56 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <Pm0xcePTOIOO@eisner.encompasserve.org>m   In article <nospam.News.Bob-7F48DA.20125518052005@news.verizon.net>, Bob Harris <nospam.News.Bob@remove.Smith-Harris.us> writes:5 > In article <7xOU080Fh2JK@eisner.encompasserve.org>,i? >  koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:o  A >>    Anyone can turn off services.  Classis Mac OS had no memoryTB >>    protection, and early on went through lots of virii.  If youL >>    don't protect memory, you don't stop a hacker from changing your data. > K > As I recall, it was under 100 virii from 1984 through today.  If that is a > lots of virii, so be it.  D So on an annualized basis, that is 5 virii per year -- less than one& order of magnitude higher than VMS :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:29:30 GMTe, From: "Ransom Fitch" <rlf_vms@earthlink.net>/ Subject: NBS prgm not connecting to time server-A Message-ID: <KANie.4079$Ri4.507@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>   K Have been using the program NBS.exe for quite some time, but it seems that oH recently it is not able to connect to the time server (which I think is 1 time.NIST.gov). Pinging time.NIST.gov works fine.g  G Anyone else experiencing this? Any way to change the server being used?i   Ransom Fitch   ------------------------------   Date: 18 May 05 19:06:32 EDT) From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook),3 Subject: Re: NBS prgm not connecting to time server ! Message-ID: <Gpv6zyZwjYPU@wvnvms>s  p In article <KANie.4079$Ri4.507@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Ransom Fitch" <rlf_vms@earthlink.net> writes:M > Have been using the program NBS.exe for quite some time, but it seems that tJ > recently it is not able to connect to the time server (which I think is 3 > time.NIST.gov). Pinging time.NIST.gov works fine.  > I > Anyone else experiencing this? Any way to change the server being used?r  F We have been using NBS V3 (from Hunter Goatley's VMS Freeware archive)G for years.  The server it normally uses is TIME-A.TIMEFREQ.BLDRDOC.GOV.e@ Both TIME-A.TIMEFREQ.BLDRDOC.GOV and TIME.NIST.GOV are currentlyB responding on port 13 (the port used by NBS).  The server NBS uses: is hardcoded in the source and has not changed since 2002.     George Cooki WVNETd   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:25:58 +0000 (UTC)". From: klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)" Subject: Re: Now that my VAX is up. Message-ID: <d6g1bm$mpk$3@newslocal.mitre.org>   JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes in article <428A6AE8.7255B18F@teksavvy.com> dated Tue, 17 May 2005 18:06:56 -0400:  >Bill Gunshannon wrote: 8 >> users.  Can I use DECnet-Plus or must I use Phase IV? > C >DECnet 4 is mught lighter on resources and management than the 5.  D >Unless you absolutely need the features specific from 5, you should >stick to 4.  0 I'm not sure that's the case for all activities.  G Decnet phase IV has some serious inefficiency in FAL, for example.  ForrF large file transfers, it behaves as if it's caching all of the data in virtual memory.   H I don't know if this issue has been fixed in phase V, but I had to train4 users to do FTP or SCS transfers rather than Decnet.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:07:50 GMT 1 From: drwho8__NOTME__@att.net (The Eighth Doctor) ) Subject: Now what do I do? (Rather long")hH Message-ID: <qNQie.227256$cg1.166511@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>   Hello from the Eighth DoctorP After discovering that the computer does find the CD drive, and will boot media Y from it, I've discovered that it still isn't interested. I found the fixed disk drive as _M DKA100, and the CD drive as DKA200, that by entering at the >>> prompt "show e< dev". It turns out that ESA0 is actually the ethernet port.   W I type in at that prompt boot dka200, after the usual noises it prints out this screen:o -DKA200r= %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Diskp= %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Diskm> %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk  J    OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0   ?06 HLT INST     PC = 81A5B93C ;    P That's from the current release of VMS for the VAX, well current as of sometime U last year. I repeat the boot command for an earlier version that a fellow enthusiast +Q was kind of enough to send me, a copy mind, not the original, and now this comes v up:e   -DKA200 = %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk = %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk > %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk  J    OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X72T Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0  /     CANNOT WRITE SYSTEM DUMP; INITIALIZATION OFD       CONTROLLER FAILED. v ?06 HLT INST     PC = 819838FE   ----  Y What now? Is it possible I've got a defective disk there? I will repeat this on the list  K that provided me with the means to obtain the whole unit, but I would like   someone's advice from here.e ---R Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot neta   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:15:09 -0500t2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>- Subject: Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")t+ Message-ID: <428BF6AD.3C7E9781@comcast.net>d   The Eighth Doctor wrote: >  > Hello from the Eighth DoctorQ > After discovering that the computer does find the CD drive, and will boot mediauZ > from it, I've discovered that it still isn't interested. I found the fixed disk drive asN > DKA100, and the CD drive as DKA200, that by entering at the >>> prompt "show= > dev". It turns out that ESA0 is actually the ethernet port.g > Y > I type in at that prompt boot dka200, after the usual noises it prints out this screen:d	 > -DKA200i? > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Diska? > %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk @ > %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk > L >    OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 >   > ?06 HLT INST     PC = 81A5B93C > Q > That's from the current release of VMS for the VAX, well current as of sometimenV > last year. I repeat the boot command for an earlier version that a fellow enthusiastR > was kind of enough to send me, a copy mind, not the original, and now this comes > up:  > 	 > -DKA200a? > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disks? > %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Diskh@ > %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk > L >    OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X72T Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 > 1 >     CANNOT WRITE SYSTEM DUMP; INITIALIZATION OF  >  >     CONTROLLER FAILED.  > ?06 HLT INST     PC = 819838FE > ---- > Z > What now? Is it possible I've got a defective disk there? I will repeat this on the listL > that provided me with the means to obtain the whole unit, but I would like > someone's advice from here.&  # Well, note the text of the message::  $ INITIALIZATION OF CONTROLLER FAILED.                   ^^^^^^^^^^  D Most likely, either the SCSI card flaked out or it has been replacedF with something the VMS does not support (not sure how you do that on a VAX).@   -- y David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/h   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:44:36 GMTa1 From: drwho8__NOTME__@att.net (The Eighth Doctor)n- Subject: Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")nH Message-ID: <o4Tie.787880$w62.557639@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  F In article <428BF6AD.3C7E9781@comcast.net>, djesys.nospam@comcast.net  says...d >, >The Eighth Doctor wrote:a >> m >> Hello from the Eighth DoctortR >> After discovering that the computer does find the CD drive, and will boot media[ >> from it, I've discovered that it still isn't interested. I found the fixed disk drive asdJ >> DKA100, and the CD drive as DKA200, that by entering at the >>> prompt  "shown> >> dev". It turns out that ESA0 is actually the ethernet port. >> aS >> I type in at that prompt boot dka200, after the usual noises it prints out this e screen:d
 >> -DKA200@ >> %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk< >> %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map SYSDUMP.DMP on the System  Disk= >> %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map PAGEFILE.SYS on the System - Disk >> eL >>    OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X7G7 Major version id = 1 Minor version id =  0j >> R! >> ?06 HLT INST     PC = 81A5B93C8 >> iJ >> That's from the current release of VMS for the VAX, well current as of  sometimeM >> last year. I repeat the boot command for an earlier version that a fellow o
 enthusiastN >> was kind of enough to send me, a copy mind, not the original, and now this  comes' >> up: >> e
 >> -DKA200@ >> %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk< >> %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map SYSDUMP.DMP on the System  Disk= >> %SYSBOOT-W-SYSBOOT Can not map PAGEFILE.SYS on the System t Disk >> nL >>    OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version X72T Major version id = 1 Minor version id =  0f >> t2 >>     CANNOT WRITE SYSTEM DUMP; INITIALIZATION OF >> d >>     CONTROLLER FAILED.t! >> ?06 HLT INST     PC = 819838FEw >> ----  >> eW >> What now? Is it possible I've got a defective disk there? I will repeat this on the i listM >> that provided me with the means to obtain the whole unit, but I would like  >> someone's advice from here. >t$ >Well, note the text of the message: >o% >INITIALIZATION OF CONTROLLER FAILED.' >                  ^^^^^^^^^^d >vE >Most likely, either the SCSI card flaked out or it has been replaced G >with something the VMS does not support (not sure how you do that on a  >VAX). >, >--  >David J Dachtera5 >dba DJE Systems >http://www.djesys.com/i >d* >Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:# >http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/- >-) >Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:2  >http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ >o# >Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:s  >http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ >@
 >Coming soon:M' >Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page  Hello from the Eighth DoctorU Indeed. I saw that each time it was ran. This is on a VS3100M76. The controller is a rR grouping of chips on the main board. I am thinking the drive electronics might be L suspect. I posted that to the list where I obtained the machine from and am  expecting a reply shortly. ---- Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot neti   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:41:45 +0000 (UTC)'% From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org>g- Subject: Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long") 6 Message-ID: <slrnd8nvdg.8r0.usenet@gaia.roc2.gblx.net>   To the original poster:a  L Can you do 'show devices' at the >>> prompt and paste the output for DKA200?  F The exact make/model of the CDROM drive can make a difference, as some= generic CDROM drives don't respond on the SCSI bus correctly.u  E Another thought is that cabling issue (too long, not firmly attached,u0 etc) or termination issue may cause such oddity.  C Did this ever work before at all, ever? Is any part of the hardwarei9 setup 'new' -- ie, a 'new' CDROM drive or new SCSI cable?e  E It wasn't clear -- are you familiar with OpenVMS-related hardware, oru- are you new to this? No offense meant at all.h  G Knowing which is the case would probably help folks figure out how muchc3 information to give. (Step by step vs short/terse.)p   -Dan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 03:33:18 GMTe1 From: drwho8__NOTME__@att.net (The Eighth Doctor)-- Subject: Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")0G Message-ID: <2OTie.227741$cg1.88351@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>r  Q In article <slrnd8nvdg.8r0.usenet@gaia.roc2.gblx.net>, usenet@evilphb.org says...M >i >To the original poster: >nM >Can you do 'show devices' at the >>> prompt and paste the output for DKA200?o > G >The exact make/model of the CDROM drive can make a difference, as somes> >generic CDROM drives don't respond on the SCSI bus correctly. >tF >Another thought is that cabling issue (too long, not firmly attached,1 >etc) or termination issue may cause such oddity.  > D >Did this ever work before at all, ever? Is any part of the hardware: >setup 'new' -- ie, a 'new' CDROM drive or new SCSI cable? >tF >It wasn't clear -- are you familiar with OpenVMS-related hardware, or. >are you new to this? No offense meant at all. >rH >Knowing which is the case would probably help folks figure out how much4 >information to give. (Step by step vs short/terse.) >  >-Dant Hello from the Eighth Doctor! Funny you were asking about this:& >>> show dev9  VMS/VMB  ULTRIX    ADDR    DEVTYP  NUMBYTES  RM/FX  WP  e DEVNAM  REVuD  -------  ------  --------  ------  --------  -----  --  ------  ---#  ESA0     SE0     08-00-2B-27-E3-FF>    D  DKA100   RZ1     A/1/0/00  DISK      535 MB   FX        DSP3053X442  D  DKA200   RZ2     A/2/0/00  RODISK    681 MB   RM        RRD45  1645  !  ...HostID....    A/6       INITRe    !  ...HostID....    B/6       INITRn   6 From the message that I sent off to that e-mail list.   L As for my experiences with VMS, let's say not much. Mostly noodling with it  running on the SIMH/VAX blob.  -- Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot net    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:58:43 -0400m- From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com>b- Subject: Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")e7 Message-ID: <8660a3a105051820583c7bc8b4@mail.gmail.com>I  > On 5/18/05, The Eighth Doctor <drwho8__NOTME__@att.net> wrote:L > In article <slrnd8nvdg.8r0.usenet@gaia.roc2.gblx.net>, usenet@evilphb.org=  says... > >T > >To the original poster: > >oL > >Can you do 'show devices' at the >>> prompt and paste the output for DKA= 200? > >2I > >The exact make/model of the CDROM drive can make a difference, as somel@ > >generic CDROM drives don't respond on the SCSI bus correctly. > > H > >Another thought is that cabling issue (too long, not firmly attached,3 > >etc) or termination issue may cause such oddity.q > > F > >Did this ever work before at all, ever? Is any part of the hardware< > >setup 'new' -- ie, a 'new' CDROM drive or new SCSI cable? > > H > >It wasn't clear -- are you familiar with OpenVMS-related hardware, or0 > >are you new to this? No offense meant at all. > > J > >Knowing which is the case would probably help folks figure out how much6 > >information to give. (Step by step vs short/terse.) > >w > >-Dane > Hello from the Eighth Doctor# > Funny you were asking about this:  > >>> show dev9 >  VMS/VMB  ULTRIX    ADDR    DEVTYP  NUMBYTES  RM/FX  WPi
 > DEVNAM  REV F >  -------  ------  --------  ------  --------  -----  --  ------  ---% >  ESA0     SE0     08-00-2B-27-E3-FF- >=20 >=20F >  DKA100   RZ1     A/1/0/00  DISK      535 MB   FX        DSP3053X442 >=20F >  DKA200   RZ2     A/2/0/00  RODISK    681 MB   RM        RRD45  1645 >=20# >  ...HostID....    A/6       INITRa >=20 >=20# >  ...HostID....    B/6       INITRa >=207 > From the message that I sent off to that e-mail list.  >=20L > As for my experiences with VMS, let's say not much. Mostly noodling with = it > running on the SIMH/VAX blob.e > --! > Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot netw >=20 >=20   Ultrix- now that's a giveaway.  " It's an ancient DEC-flavored UNIX.  A Try doing a TEST 50 from the console prompt, with and without thef CD-ROM attached.  / Compare and contrast the results from each run.s   Regards,     WWWebb     --=20 C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-relatedt correspondence.iC All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request forP8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 21:34:13 -0700 From: tomarsin2015@comcast.net- Subject: Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long") C Message-ID: <1116477253.761216.315500@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>g   HellosD Could if be that the RRD45 is not reading the copy correctly?? ThereG was the thread about VMS and cd burners. Also what happens when you trynG to boot off the disk??? I thought the DSP30XX drives where around 1 gig>E drives and the show dev shows less then 600 megs left. Also the RRD454; is only 650megs and  the show dev shows 681 megs available.y phillipn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:03:28 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: OT: Ottelini takes over at Intelo, Message-ID: <428BE5D3.44068487@teksavvy.com>  C Today was the day when Ottelini took over the post of CEO at Intel.i7 Grove stepped down. Barret remains chairmain of board. a   from: z > http://news.com.com/Otellini+takes+over+at+Intel%2C+fleshes+out+strategy+-+page+2/2100-1006_3-5712162-2.html?tag=st.next   ##G The server push hasn't gone completely smoothly. Itanium, a server chip F promoted by both Grove and Barrett, has been a huge financial failure,D and AMD managed to get into the market after Intel overlooked 64-bit9 chips. Still, Xeon, which debuted in 1998, is the world'sh biggest-selling server chip. e ##       ##H From the beginning of 1999 to the end of 2003, Intel bought more than 35C companies for over $11 billion. Very few of these acquisitions havegF turned into successful product lines. Much of the technology has later been discarded.y ##   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:08:14 -0400 4 From: "Peter Weaver" <newsgroup@weaverconsulting.ca>) Subject: Re: Problems receiving SMTP mailh+ Message-ID: <3f1i5aF5futfU1@individual.net>    Peter Weaver wrote: H >>> that there was an incoming connection from an earthlink mail server.  >>> But I did not get a message. >> >>> #smtp_net_util\353A >>> smtp_read_reply,fd=3,buf=,len=4096,cookie=1,timemin=5,timenown >>> 17-MAY-2005 13:39:29.18i5 >>> #smtp_read_reply:B4 select: vaxc$errno=1, errno=0a8 >>> #smtp_read_reply:After select: vaxc$errno=1, errno=0 >...   I uncommented thee  Accept-Unqualified-Senders: TRUE! Accept-Unresolvable-Domains: TRUEc  ( lines and the problem finally went away.   -- o Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.h Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAX  www.weaverconsulting.can   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:35:28 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>e) Subject: Re: Problems receiving SMTP maild, Message-ID: <428B98FE.1E68BFE7@teksavvy.com>   Peter Weaver wrote:tB > Actually, what I posted was part of the log created by doing the > TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_TRACE.  F Perhaps you need to have the log level increased as well for the trace to really work.   & $DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_DEBUG 1  H The log you included in your original message did not have a data trace.N The data trace is very obvious, what is being sent and what is being received.    , > This part happens just after the sender is > accepted.   H You mean VMS responds to the MAIL FROM: with a 200 series status message- ? Or does VMS take forever to respond to it ?s  A Do you have any RBL services in your SMTP config ?  RBLs normally.H generate an opcom message as well as go into accounting if accounting isF enabled. (You need to enable MESSAGE (user message) class accounting.)     > Source 192.168.2.21 53749. > Destination 192.168.2.21 53j > UDP:     This is key here.   F 192.168 are local non routable adresses, so this probably means inside? your own lan. Both source and destination are the same, and theaG destination is port 53, which means DNS.  Also, the fact that this usesa9 UDP is not consistent with SMTP, but consistent with DNS.r  E So the packets you are seeing are DNS requests being made to your own 8 DNS server. And if your default domain for resolution isH weaverconsulting.ca , and it can't resolve a domain, it tries to resolve$ it with the default comain appended.   This is meant to work as:r& 	with default domain of chocolate.com:  ) 	resolving "pastry" would initially fail, N 	it then adds chocolate.com and will succeed in resolving pastry.chocolate.com  H So, it seems that your DNS server is unable to resolve the domain of theO sender, and then tries to see if it might not be resolvable inside your domain.t  @ Have you tried to NSLOOKUP the "xxxxx.com" to see what happens ?  D If this happens after the MAIL FROM: command, then you might want to) TELNET/PORT=25 to your machine and enter:    HELO xxxxx.com MAIL FROM: user@xxxxx.com   RCPT TO: you@weaverconsulting.ca QUIT  A If you get 200 codes for the first 3 commands,  it means that the H problem might be in the receiver having problems doing reverse lookup of* the IP address of the sending SMTP server.    H YOu can also play with the SMTP.CONFIG file to loosen restrictions on IP reverse transaltability.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:15:14 -0400i4 From: "Peter Weaver" <newsgroup@weaverconsulting.ca>) Subject: Re: Problems receiving SMTP mailm+ Message-ID: <3f1m2nF5hgagU1@individual.net>h   JF Mezei wrote:e > Peter Weaver wrote:sC >> Actually, what I posted was part of the log created by doing theo >> TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_TRACE.r >yH > Perhaps you need to have the log level increased as well for the trace > to really work.- >-( > $DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_DEBUG 1 >5C > The log you included in your original message did not have a datajG > trace. The data trace is very obvious, what is being sent and what is9 > being received.v   Yup, had that one too; "TCPIP$SMTP_LOG_LEVEL" = "3" "TCPIP$SMTP_NOSEY" = "1" "TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_DEBUG" = "1"  "TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_TRACE" = "1"c "TCPIP$SMTP_SYMB_TRACE" = "1"t     >t >a- >> This part happens just after the sender isV >> accepted. >oB > You mean VMS responds to the MAIL FROM: with a 200 series status7 > message ? Or does VMS take forever to respond to it ?   # Yup, 250 email-address... Sender OKi The response was fairly quick.   > C > Do you have any RBL services in your SMTP config ?  RBLs normallyeG > generate an opcom message as well as go into accounting if accounting > > is enabled. (You need to enable MESSAGE (user message) class > accounting.)  
 No RBL's yet.r   >- >t >> Source 192.168.2.21 53749 >> Destination 192.168.2.21 53 >> UDP >h >  > This is key here.h >aB > 192.168 are local non routable addresses, so this probably means insideA > your own lan. Both source and destination are the same, and the D > destination is port 53, which means DNS.  Also, the fact that this@ > uses UDP is not consistent with SMTP, but consistent with DNS. >iG > So the packets you are seeing are DNS requests being made to your ownm: > DNS server. And if your default domain for resolution isB > weaverconsulting.ca , and it can't resolve a domain, it tries to. > resolve it with the default comain appended. >. > This is meant to work as: ' > with default domain of chocolate.com:e >U* > resolving "pastry" would initially fail,: > it then adds chocolate.com and will succeed in resolving > pastry.chocolate.com > F > So, it seems that your DNS server is unable to resolve the domain ofA > the sender, and then tries to see if it might not be resolvablea > inside your domain.b  = That is consistent with the answer I hacked together, setting C "Accept-Unresolvable-Domains:" and "Accept-Unqualified-Senders:" to2 true.5     >TB > Have you tried to NSLOOKUP the "xxxxx.com" to see what happens ? >gF > If this happens after the MAIL FROM: command, then you might want to+ > TELNET/PORT=25 to your machine and enter:p >e > HELO xxxxx.com > MAIL FROM: user@xxxxx.coml" > RCPT TO: you@weaverconsulting.ca > QUIT >vC > If you get 200 codes for the first 3 commands,  it means that the G > problem might be in the receiver having problems doing reverse lookupp/ > of the IP address of the sending SMTP server.e >f  H Rats, I should have thought of that myself! I have given that answer outH to other people many times myself, but when I have a problem I forget to check the basics!h   >1G > YOu can also play with the SMTP.CONFIG file to loosen restrictions on> > IP reverse transaltability.p  * Right, thanks for your help once again JF.   -- a Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.o Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAXi www.weaverconsulting.caI   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:26:45 -0700e( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>< Subject: Re: the same old SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA err, but with NCP/ Message-ID: <BEB14775.E21E%roktsci@comcast.net>o   On 5/18/05 6:02 AM, in article6 1116421363.806440.324480@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,D "dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com" <dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com> wrote:   > Any suggestions on this one. >  >  > in NCP  (DECNET IV)s >  > NCP>> SET LINE EWA-1 STATE ONn! > NCP-W-OPEFAI, operation failureh > * > SYSTEM-F-EXQUOTA, process quota exceeded > NCP>>e >  > What can I do about this?? >  >  > dave >  Hello Dave,-  F Jeff Cameron here from MTI. I hope our products are treating you well.  K Anyway, concerning your problem. Are you doing this command from the SystemrL account or just a fully privileged user account? If the latter, you may want to verify the UAF settings..  K If that is not the issue, redo the command generating the error, then whileuI you are still at the NCP prompt, open another terminal window and run the G CQ.COM command procedure provided at this link (stored as a text file):s  4 http://support.mti.com/VMS2005cd/supportfiles/cq.txt  H And enter in the PID of the NCP process. This will tell you which is the offending quota.   Jeff Cameron   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 21:47:53 -0700 From: contracer11@gmail.comn Subject: Valid IP Address C Message-ID: <1116478073.328543.275080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>o  E I'm looking for a command procedure to verify if a specific Ip addrest	 is valid.s Example:   $ @ip 192.168.1.100e  $    192.168.1.100 -> valid Ip address   $ @ip 192.168.1.897   &    192.168.1.897 -> invalid Ip address   How could I make this in DCL ?   Thanks in advance.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:04:07 -0400b- From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com>g Subject: Re: Valid IP Addresst7 Message-ID: <8660a3a105051822042f17b00f@mail.gmail.com>   4 On 18 May 2005 21:47:53 -0700, contracer11@gmail.com <contracer11@gmail.com> wrote:G > I'm looking for a command procedure to verify if a specific Ip addresc > is valid.I
 > Example: >=20 > $ @ip 192.168.1.100e >=20& >    192.168.1.100 -> valid Ip address >=20 > $ @ip 192.168.1.897l >=20( >    192.168.1.897 -> invalid Ip address >=20  > How could I make this in DCL ? >=20 > Thanks in advance. >=20 >=20( Sounds suspiciously like homework to me.   HELP LEXICAL F$ELEMENT   Hope this helpst   WWWebb --=20rC NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-relatedm correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request fore8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/l   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 05:09:18 +0000S7 From: David B Sneddon - bigpond <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>h Subject: Re: Valid IP Address * Message-ID: <428C1F7E.5080302@bigpond.com>  + contracer11@gmail.com mentioned in passing: G > I'm looking for a command procedure to verify if a specific Ip addresy > is valid. 
 > Example: >  > $ @ip 192.168.1.100u > & >    192.168.1.100 -> valid Ip address >  > $ @ip 192.168.1.897o > ( >    192.168.1.897 -> invalid Ip address >   > How could I make this in DCL ? >  > Thanks in advance. >  >    You mean something like...   $ ! Procedure: VALIDATE_IP.COM
 $ set noon $ exit_status = %X10000004 $ say = "write sys$output"( $ address = f$edit(P1,"COLLAPSE,UPCASE")# $ octet1 = f$element(0,".",address) ) $ octet2 = f$element(1,".",address) - ".'g) $ octet3 = f$element(2,".",address) - "."e) $ octet4 = f$element(3,".",address) - "." K $ if (f$length(octet1)*f$length(octet2)*f$length(octet3)*f$length(octet4) -d        .eq. 0)= $   then say "%Invalid address -- one or more octets missing"  $ else* $ type1 = (f$type(octet1) .eqs. "INTEGER")* $ type2 = (f$type(octet2) .eqs. "INTEGER")* $ type3 = (f$type(octet3) .eqs. "INTEGER")* $ type4 = (f$type(octet4) .eqs. "INTEGER")% $ if (type1*type2*type3*type4 .eq. 0) 4 $   then say "%Invalid address -- non-numeric value" $ else4 $ range1 = ((octet1 .ge. 0) .and. (octet1 .le. 255))4 $ range2 = ((octet2 .ge. 0) .and. (octet2 .le. 255))4 $ range3 = ((octet3 .ge. 0) .and. (octet3 .le. 255))4 $ range4 = ((octet4 .ge. 0) .and. (octet4 .le. 255))) $ if (range1*range2*range3*range4 .eq. 0) / $   then say "%Invalid address -- out of range"v $ else- $ say "%Address ''address' seems to be valid"5 $ exit_status = %X10000001 $ endif< $ endif2 $ endif. $ exitt exit_status   ' tardis_FTA7> @validate_ip 192.168.1.100o( %Address 192.168.1.100 seems to be valid tardis_FTA7> show symb $status    $STATUS == "%X10000001"' tardis_FTA7> @validate_ip 192.168.1.897t  %Invalid address -- out of range tardis_FTA7> show symb $status    $STATUS == "%X10000004"  : There is more checking that could be done but I will leave that up to you.l   Regards, Dave -- hB David B Sneddon (dbs) VMS Systems Programmer dbsneddon@bigpond.comB Sneddo's quick guide ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/B DBS freeware   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.277 ************************