1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 19 May 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 278       Contents:5 Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still? 5 Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still? 5 Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still? 5 Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still? 5 Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still? 0 Re: CMD CDU 720/M Unibus to SCSI board available< RE: COTS - was Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising% cURL 7.14.0 has been released for VMS , Re: DO HLP HLD BRK PRN and other keymappings FMS Runtime Installation( Has Mark Hurd been invited to Boot Camp?, Re: Has Mark Hurd been invited to Boot Camp?, Re: Has Mark Hurd been invited to Boot Camp? Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results  Re: HP 2Q05 results $ Re: Kill multiple processes by name?1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 RE: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising 1 Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising  message ident length question $ Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")$ Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")$ Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")* Re: Screen descriptions in HP Cobol on VMS* Re: Screen descriptions in HP Cobol on VMS* Re: Screen descriptions in HP Cobol on VMS Re: Valid IP Address Re: Valid IP Address Re: Valid IP Address Re: Valid IP Address Re: Valid IP Address  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:54:20 GMT ! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> > Subject: Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still?8 Message-ID: <c1so8190gpgg5acdg0renqv6huo36h3mj6@4ax.com>  G On 19 May 2005 02:08:10 GMT, Hans Bachner <Hans@Bachner.priv.at> wrote:   3 >The Eighth Doctor <drwho8__NOTME__@att.net> wrote:  >  ><snip> ? >> For any number of reasons, despite the fact that Kermit does ? >> splendidly at playing at being a VT320, I'd like to buy one.  >>  I >> Does anyone know of any VT320s still be sold out there? Or being given  >> away? ><snip>  > K >Well, VT320s haven't been built for a long time - but VT510/520/525 still  ( >are. Check out http://www.boundless.com  N Wow! They don't come cheap though do they? Almost $500 for the simplest VT510.   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:12:28 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> > Subject: Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still?, Message-ID: <Gaydna9pC9w26RHfRVn-tg@igs.net>   Nigel Barker wrote: B > On 19 May 2005 02:08:10 GMT, Hans Bachner <Hans@Bachner.priv.at> > wrote: > 5 >> The Eighth Doctor <drwho8__NOTME__@att.net> wrote:  >>	 >> <snip> @ >>> For any number of reasons, despite the fact that Kermit does@ >>> splendidly at playing at being a VT320, I'd like to buy one. >>> D >>> Does anyone know of any VT320s still be sold out there? Or being >>> given away? 	 >> <snip>  >>F >> Well, VT320s haven't been built for a long time - but VT510/520/5250 >> still are. Check out http://www.boundless.com > @ > Wow! They don't come cheap though do they? Almost $500 for the > simplest VT510.     ' Captive market. Prices to reflect that.    --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:55:16 -0500 ( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>> Subject: Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still?/ Message-ID: <00A43FD0.8F05E6C0.6@tachysoft.com>    >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms; >Subject: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still? 2 >From: drwho8__NOTME__@att.net (The Eighth Doctor): >X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) >MIME-Version: 1.0+ >Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII 	 >Lines: 9 I >Message-ID: <ilQie.787107$w62.669465@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  >  >Hello from the Eighth Doctor W >For any number of reasons, despite the fact that Kermit does splendidly at playing at  $ >being a VT320, I'd like to buy one. > N >Does anyone know of any VT320s still be sold out there? Or being given away? E >Remember for physical transactions I'm based in the Queens NYC area.  >----    I just bought two on ebay.O =============================================================================== N Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html    O =============================================================================== P Jake Blues:"You traded the Caddy for a microphone? ...... Okay, I can buy that."   ------------------------------    Date: 19 May 2005 07:47:28 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > Subject: Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still?3 Message-ID: <1p1eRW7PKJ6B@eisner.encompasserve.org>   | In article <ilQie.787107$w62.669465@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, drwho8__NOTME__@att.net (The Eighth Doctor) writes: > Hello from the Eighth DoctorX > For any number of reasons, despite the fact that Kermit does splendidly at playing at % > being a VT320, I'd like to buy one.  > O > Does anyone know of any VT320s still be sold out there? Or being given away?  F > Remember for physical transactions I'm based in the Queens NYC area.  E    I picked up a VT4xx at UMD's Terapin Trader.  You may find similar E    outlets at schools in your area.  Also check for government excess E    property sales.  I picked up my 21" monitor for my Alpha at a NASA E    "retail sale" (pre-priced individual items), you can meet vendors  E    of other old equipment at action sales (bids on lots which include "    a lot of stuff you don't want).   ------------------------------    Date: 19 May 2005 07:43:20 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) > Subject: Re: Are there any original terminals for sale? Still?- Message-ID: <z3MxoE2XgILH@malvm7.mala.bc.ca.>   | In article <ilQie.787107$w62.669465@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, drwho8__NOTME__@att.net (The Eighth Doctor) writes: > Hello from the Eighth DoctorX > For any number of reasons, despite the fact that Kermit does splendidly at playing at % > being a VT320, I'd like to buy one.  > O > Does anyone know of any VT320s still be sold out there? Or being given away?  F > Remember for physical transactions I'm based in the Queens NYC area.       Have you tried Ebay?  T   A quick search shows a dozen or so VT320/420/520 for auction in the $50-150 range.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:29:19 GMT A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> 9 Subject: Re: CMD CDU 720/M Unibus to SCSI board available = Message-ID: <jh2je.35362$G8.12144@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   G It's on its way to Bill. He got there first. My thanks to all those who 
 responded.   --     Hope this helps, Colin. ) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk E It's not mine, but I like this definition: Legacy = stuff that works. L "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> wrote in message5 news:Ov8ie.33213$G8.701@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:16:26 -0400 # From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> E Subject: RE: COTS - was Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising : Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDKEGFGGAA.dallen@nist.gov>  I > > Speaking from some extensive personal experience inside the .mil/.gov N > > procurement world I'd have to disagree. In my experience DOD (and for thatG > > matter other .gov) COTS procurements often start simple and wind up  > a convoluted > F > Ah, but you used the "P" word.  Anytime procurement gets involved itE > becomes a fiasco. Mandatory Anecdote:  My last procurement from the   P Well I wasn't talking about credit card orders. Around here that's got somethingL like a $3K item cost limit and it's not called COTS. I was talking about theO formal procurement process called COTS (and I assumed the DOD buzsword du jour) M that targets procurement of commercial of the shelf products.  For example, a P word processing application to be deployed across a small agency. There might beN a half a dozen commercial off the shelf packages that meets the basic needs. AM COTS procurement is supposed to expedite these types of procurements and save  the government money.   M In a COTS procurement your functional requirements are supposed to be generic O such that any of the potential packages can satisfy them and the vendors simply L compete the price. All too often the requirements become a hodgepodge mix ofK features from many different COTS offerings, such that no single one of the O existing packages meets all of the requirements. Now the COTS selection process K requires you to rank the offerings in terms of how completely they meet the L requirements. Then you have to evaluate incomplete functionality against bidL price. Then you award. Then you contract again to the COTS winner for customM enhancements to add missing functionality which you really didn't need in the  first place.  M The offender here is not the procurement office.  They are typically clueless O about the nature of your need or the technical issues involved. The offender is L the management guy and his team of experts tasked with preparing the RFP andP making the award. They COTS vehicle is being misused and fails to do its job. InP theory the contracting officer should reign the management team in but it seldom happens.    J > It will never replace all procurement (you can't buy an F11 COTS :-) but4 > it is making a lot of equipment aquisition easier.    O Of course you can - that's exactly what an F11 is - COTS hardware. In a perfect O world there there will be more than one source of supply so you can compete the  price.   > P > >                                         It's too often just another buzzwordE > > that's floated about to lend credence to yet another FUBARed RFP.  > F > When an RFP is involved, it's really not COTS any more, it's just an# > old fashioned procurement circus.  >   M RFP but no circus required if you adhere to the spirit and intent of the COTS  process.   Dan    ------------------------------    Date: 19 May 2005 12:00:35 -05004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt). Subject: cURL 7.14.0 has been released for VMS3 Message-ID: <DoAGwbGp$M3n@eisner.encompasserve.org>   A The latest version of cURL, 7.14.0, has been released for OpenVMS  and is available for download.  5 The location is http://curl.haxx.se/download.html#VMS   > This is the binary and object library distribution of the cURL> 7.14.0 release.  See the readme.vms file in the zip for usage A information.  The zip files contain executables and objects built > with OpenSSL, hpSSL and without SSL support.  The files are in architecture specific zips.   A The OpenSSL and noSSL versions are self-contained in that you can A run these programs without any other software on the system.  For A the hp SSL version, you will need to have hp's SSL V1.1-B product @ installed.  This version doesn't support hp's SSL on IA64, since) the machine I compile on doesn't have it.   C  HW Type  VMS Version    Compiler Vers   SSL Library      Filenames D --------+--------------+---------------+----------------+-----------D  Alpha  | OpenVMS 7.3  | DEC C 6.5-001 | OpenSSL 0.9.7e | .*_opensslB  Alpha  | OpenVMS 7.3  | DEC C 6.5-001 | hpSSL 1.1-B    | .*_hpsslB  Alpha  | OpenVMS 7.3  | DEC C 6.5-001 | No SSL support | .*_nosslD  IA64   | OpenVMS 8.2  |  HP C S7.1-13 | OpenSSL 0.9.7d | .*_opensslB  IA64   | OpenVMS 8.2  |  HP C S7.1-13 | No SSL support | .*_nosslD  VAX    | OpenVMS 7.3  | DEC C 6.4-005 | OpenSSL 0.9.7e | .*_opensslB  VAX    | OpenVMS 7.3  | DEC C 6.4-005 | hpSSL 1.1-B    | .*_hpsslB  VAX    | OpenVMS 7.3  | DEC C 6.4-005 | No SSL support | .*_nossl  H For those who don't know what cURL is, here is the blurb from their main page...   ;     Curl is a command line tool for transferring files with :     URL syntax, supporting FTP, FTPS, HTTP, HTTPS, GOPHER,4     TELNET, DICT, FILE and LDAP. Curl supports HTTPS5     certificates, HTTP POST, HTTP PUT, FTP uploading, 7     kerberos, HTTP form based upload, proxies, cookies, <     user+password authentication, file transfer resume, http9     proxy tunneling and a busload of other useful tricks.   C I haven't tested all the features, since I only use the library for F HTTP(S) stuff via C programs.  It does compile and link cleanly on all the platforms outlined above.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:19:59 -0000 / From: Thomas Dickey <dickey@saltmine.radix.net> 5 Subject: Re: DO HLP HLD BRK PRN and other keymappings 0 Message-ID: <118oq2ff2p2ag28@corp.supernews.com>  E In comp.terminals David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:   E > Not sure where to find doc.'s on SMG (Screen Management Guidelines) J > these days. I suspect that there are other mnemonics not includes in the. > SMGTERMS.TXT file, but documented elsewhere.   starting here:  ) 	http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/index.html    searching for smg gives this:   8 	http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/72final/5935/5935pro.html  C (from the available documentation, the parameter-substitution isn't  as flexible as terminfo).    --   Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net  ftp://invisible-island.net   ------------------------------    Date: 19 May 2005 10:25:18 -0700  From: njklostermann@cbegroup.com! Subject: FMS Runtime Installation C Message-ID: <1116523518.331685.265350@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   C I am attempting to install FMS Runtime on a freshly installed 7.3-2 D Alpha system.  I keep getting a %VMSINSTAL-W-NOFILE error during theB install.  It is driving me quite crazy and I am hoping there is anD obvious fix.  Below is the complete log of the install.  Any help isG appreciated.  I followed the install instructions completely at least 3 B times and searched the internet but couldn't come up with anything useful.   0 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~; $ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL FMSFDV025 GS80$DQA0:[DECFDV025.kit]     B         OpenVMS AXP Software Product Installation Procedure V7.3-2     It is 19-MAY-2005 at 13:25.   / Enter a question mark (?) at any time for help.   > %VMSINSTAL-W-ACTIVE, The following processes are still active:        TCPIP$FTP_1        TCPIP$NTP_1* * Do you want to continue anyway [NO]? YES> * Are you satisfied with the backup of your system disk [YES]?    ) The following products will be processed:   
   FMSFDV V2.5     6         Beginning installation of FMSFDV V2.5 at 13:25  6 %VMSINSTAL-I-RESTORE, Restoring product save set A ...             Product:      FMS-RT         Producer:     HP         Version:      2.5 !         Release Date: 12-MAR-2004     D * Does this product have an authorization key registered and loaded? YES : * Do you want to run the IVP after the installation [YES]?E * Do you want to purge files replaced by this installation [YES]? yes < %VMSINSTAL-W-NOFILE, New file FDVSHR_TV.EXE  does not exist.A %VMSINSTAL-E-INSFAIL, The installation of FMSFDV V2.5 has failed.   >     Adding history entry in VMI$ROOT:[SYSUPD]VMSINSTAL.HISTORY    )         VMSINSTAL procedure done at 13:25 0 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:16:44 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 1 Subject: Has Mark Hurd been invited to Boot Camp? , Message-ID: <VpidnWtV2tc16BHfRVn-jA@igs.net>   Subject line says it all.   H If so, I hope he'll do more for us than strike a pose with a t-shirt and license plate.     --L OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.   ------------------------------    Date: 19 May 2005 06:45:23 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>5 Subject: Re: Has Mark Hurd been invited to Boot Camp? C Message-ID: <1116510323.676005.194850@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    John Smith wrote:  > Subject line says it all.  > F > If so, I hope he'll do more for us than strike a pose with a t-shirt and  > license plate. >  >  > --D > OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling	 ISV base.     F How about "The awesome, but never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base"?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:13:11 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 5 Subject: Re: Has Mark Hurd been invited to Boot Camp? , Message-ID: <u86dnaV7pOuOMBHfRVn-qg@igs.net>  
 AEF wrote: > John Smith wrote:  >> Subject line says it all. >>G >> If so, I hope he'll do more for us than strike a pose with a t-shirt  >> and license plate.  >> >> >> -- E >> OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling  >> ISV base. >  > H > How about "The awesome, but never-advertised operating system with the > dwindling ISV base"?     I was toying with:  1 OpenVMS - The "Thor's Hammer of operating systems      From Wikipedia:   G  Thor is much more the god of the common man, often siding with mortals E against other gods. Thor was an outright hero for mankind, powerfully  defeating his enemies ....  H Thor owned a short-handled war hammer, Mjollnir, which, when thrown at aI target, returned magically to the owner. To wield this formidable weapon, I even a deity like Thor needed special iron gloves and a belt that doubled  the wearer's strength.F ..... With the hammer, Thor indulged in his favourite sport of killing giants.     J but then there's this to contend with, which would only cause confusion in the aisles: J Thor's Hammer is the first supercomputer using the Red Storm architecture.@ It will be installed at Sandia National Laboratories, located inL Albuquerque, New Mexico.The project is a collaboration between Cray Inc. and; Sandia Labs. The machine is slated to be installed in 2004.   J It is a 3 dimensional mesh-based MIMD machine consisting of 10,368 computeH nodes, 10 TB of total distributed memory and 120 TB of disk storage. TheG system uses AMD 64 bit, dual-core Opteron CPUs as processing nodes. The E system consists of 140 cabinets, taking up 3000 square feet (280 m).   L The system is meant to be a replacement for the earlier ASCI Red. The system7 will have a theoretical peak of 40 Tera-ops per second.      --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:24:44 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results+ Message-ID: <428C310C.182594C@teksavvy.com>    Dave Froble wrote:  F > I'm aware that some people don't like to hear this subject.  Well itJ > happened.  It happened to people with long memories, and was observed byG > more people with long memories.  Fool me once maybe, not twice.  That B > will be the attitude.  The advertising will have to be good, and > protracted, and convincing.   H HP had the perfect opportunity to gain our trust and respect on may 7th.E Stallard's memo should have acknowledged that VMS had been mismanaged D and its potential not leveraged in the past and that under HP, VMS's$ potential would be fully developped.  F Instead, he chose to use terms such as "plan of record" (which, to VMSE folks is equated to Compaq screwing us when it murdered Alpha) and of B course the  VMS customers are expected to migrate to HP-UX on IA64 famous line.  E As the new kid on the block, Hurd now has the same opportunity, amdit = mistakes of the past and start off on the good foot and grain F credibility and respect. But before long, he will be seen a continuingH the HP policy which has conserved the distrust VMS customers had in this week's owner of VMS.    : Admitting mistakes of the past would go a long way towardsD re-establishing credibility and it woudl then take fewer advertising dollars to complete the task.   F Without this, HP needs to do sustained advertising for VMS over a longG period before we believe thei really mean it. Token advertising now and ) then to shut us up doesn't do it anymore.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:51:16 +1000 6 From: "O'Brien Paddy" <Paddy.O'Brien@transgrid.com.au> Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 resultsX Message-ID: <8BAD914A0B8CA84C9E94187103A1AB9E05BE27@EX-TG2-PR.corporate.transgrid.local>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C55C58.6DF92C2B . Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     " Had to send this by forwarding !!!   -----Original Message----- From: O'Brien Paddy  Sent: Thu 5/19/2005 7:07 PM # To: JF Mezei; info-vax@mvb.saiv.com  Subject: RE: HP 2Q05 results =20   L Apologies to everyone.  I now have to use M$ web access, and when I reply, =L I cannot get rid of the originator.  When I reply to someone who has munged=L  their address, apparently none of my mail gets through.  Thanks Bill III, =6 you have managed to f**k almost everyone in the world.  L If I do get through, my comments are below the original message -- I cannot=/  even work out how to get the dead sergeant !!!    -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com] Sent: Thu 5/19/2005 4:24 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results =20  Dave Froble wrote:  F > I'm aware that some people don't like to hear this subject.  Well itJ > happened.  It happened to people with long memories, and was observed byG > more people with long memories.  Fool me once maybe, not twice.  That B > will be the attitude.  The advertising will have to be good, and > protracted, and convincing.   H HP had the perfect opportunity to gain our trust and respect on may 7th.E Stallard's memo should have acknowledged that VMS had been mismanaged D and its potential not leveraged in the past and that under HP, VMS's$ potential would be fully developped.  F Instead, he chose to use terms such as "plan of record" (which, to VMSE folks is equated to Compaq screwing us when it murdered Alpha) and of B course the  VMS customers are expected to migrate to HP-UX on IA64 famous line.  E As the new kid on the block, Hurd now has the same opportunity, amdit = mistakes of the past and start off on the good foot and grain F credibility and respect. But before long, he will be seen a continuingH the HP policy which has conserved the distrust VMS customers had in this week's owner of VMS.   Me now:   L We really have to accept that DEC/Compaq/HP are no longer interested in us.=L   I work for a medium sized organisation that went from VMS to TRU64 to som=L ething else.  The incentive was using contractor vendors who said that they=%  would no longer support VMS systems.   L I am lucky.  My group still heavily relies on our programs/applications bei=L ng on VMS, so I run a development and production couple of boxes.  Part of =L our reliance is because we are heavily involved with DECset for our code li=; braries.  And, within that, DTM for validation of our code.   L We had to port some of our programs to the PC environment for our engineers=L  who have to work abroad at times.  Often quite a mammoth task because of u=@ sing RTLs, and having to use DFLIB (if that's the correct name).  L When I retire (shortly), our group will be looking to using commercial pack=L ages and loose the flexibility of home-grown and modifiable for specific in=
 stances code.   L Our engineers use Matlab (as have I sometimes) for "quick and dirties".  Ma=L thworks gave up supporting VMS many years ago; we cannot even increase the =L number of user licences.  We use the NAG library, and although they still s=H upport us on Alpha, the latest "Mark" can take over a year to get to us.  L The only reason that our group is surviving on VMS is because we have a sma=L ll team (now two, was six a few years ago) maintaing and developing our in-= house programs.   L We also had one of the best Fortran compilers.  Since the donation of SL an=L d many of his team to Intel (and the DXML library people), I see Fortran no=L w on our Alphas as a "mature product" -- no more development and over the p=L ast few years only minor bug-fixes.  We beta-ed about 4 versions starting f=L rom their original, until they threw it away (Hi, Ken).  It has gone the sa=L me way as FMS and GKS (and others -- DECset?).  From hearsay (the c.l.f new=" sgroup), I do not want HP Fortran.  L I don't think that anyone is able or inclined (even the mega-bucks guy -- H=L urd) to re-vitalise what were some of the strengths that were positives for=  us.   Regards, Paddy    G ***********************************************************************   C "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged @ and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20D addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of=20C this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise D the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=207 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.   C If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 C immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 ? individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 C authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses > virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment.  < Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now$ firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"  G ***********************************************************************     ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C55C58.6DF92C2B - Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">  <HTML> <HEAD>L <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1"> K <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7226.0"> " <TITLE>Re: HP 2Q05 results</TITLE> </HEAD>  <BODY>) <!-- Converted from text/plain format -->  <BR>  8 <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Had to send this by forwarding !!!<BR> <BR> -----Original Message-----<BR> From: O'Brien Paddy<BR>  Sent: Thu 5/19/2005 7:07 PM<BR> ' To: JF Mezei; info-vax@mvb.saiv.com<BR>   Subject: RE: HP 2Q05 results<BR> <BR> <BR>L Apologies to everyone.&nbsp; I now have to use M$ web access, and when I re=L ply, I cannot get rid of the originator.&nbsp; When I reply to someone who =L has munged their address, apparently none of my mail gets through.&nbsp; Th=I anks Bill III, you have managed to f**k almost everyone in the world.<BR>  <BR>L If I do get through, my comments are below the original message -- I cannot=3  even work out how to get the dead sergeant !!!<BR>  <BR> -----Original Message-----<BR>L From: JF Mezei [<A HREF=3D"mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com">mailto:jfme=! zei.spamnot@teksavvy.com</A>]<BR>  Sent: Thu 5/19/2005 4:24 PM<BR>  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com<BR>   Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results<BR> <BR> Dave Froble wrote:<BR> <BR>L &gt; I'm aware that some people don't like to hear this subject.&nbsp; Well=  it<BR> L &gt; happened.&nbsp; It happened to people with long memories, and was obse= rved by<BR> L &gt; more people with long memories.&nbsp; Fool me once maybe, not twice.&n=
 bsp; That<BR> L &gt; will be the attitude.&nbsp; The advertising will have to be good, and<= BR> $ &gt; protracted, and convincing.<BR> <BR>L HP had the perfect opportunity to gain our trust and respect on may 7th.<BR>I Stallard's memo should have acknowledged that VMS had been mismanaged<BR> H and its potential not leveraged in the past and that under HP, VMS's<BR>( potential would be fully developped.<BR> <BR>L Instead, he chose to use terms such as &quot;plan of record&quot; (which, t=	 o VMS<BR> I folks is equated to Compaq screwing us when it murdered Alpha) and of<BR> K course the&nbsp; VMS customers are expected to migrate to HP-UX on IA64<BR>  famous line.<BR> <BR>I As the new kid on the block, Hurd now has the same opportunity, amdit<BR> A mistakes of the past and start off on the good foot and grain<BR> J credibility and respect. But before long, he will be seen a continuing<BR>L the HP policy which has conserved the distrust VMS customers had in this<BR> week's owner of VMS.<BR> <BR> Me now:<BR>  <BR>L We really have to accept that DEC/Compaq/HP are no longer interested in us.=L &nbsp; I work for a medium sized organisation that went from VMS to TRU64 t=L o something else.&nbsp; The incentive was using contractor vendors who said=3  that they would no longer support VMS systems.<BR>  <BR>L I am lucky.&nbsp; My group still heavily relies on our programs/application=L s being on VMS, so I run a development and production couple of boxes.&nbsp=L ; Part of our reliance is because we are heavily involved with DECset for o=L ur code libraries.&nbsp; And, within that, DTM for validation of our code.<= BR>  <BR>L We had to port some of our programs to the PC environment for our engineers=L  who have to work abroad at times.&nbsp; Often quite a mammoth task because=I  of using RTLs, and having to use DFLIB (if that's the correct name).<BR>  <BR>L When I retire (shortly), our group will be looking to using commercial pack=L ages and loose the flexibility of home-grown and modifiable for specific in= stances code.<BR>  <BR>L Our engineers use Matlab (as have I sometimes) for &quot;quick and dirties&=L quot;.&nbsp; Mathworks gave up supporting VMS many years ago; we cannot eve=L n increase the number of user licences.&nbsp; We use the NAG library, and a=L lthough they still support us on Alpha, the latest &quot;Mark&quot; can tak= e over a year to get to us.<BR>  <BR>L The only reason that our group is surviving on VMS is because we have a sma=L ll team (now two, was six a few years ago) maintaing and developing our in-= house programs.<BR>  <BR>L We also had one of the best Fortran compilers.&nbsp; Since the donation of =L SL and many of his team to Intel (and the DXML library people), I see Fortr=L an now on our Alphas as a &quot;mature product&quot; -- no more development=L  and over the past few years only minor bug-fixes.&nbsp; We beta-ed about 4=L  versions starting from their original, until they threw it away (Hi, Ken).=L &nbsp; It has gone the same way as FMS and GKS (and others -- DECset?).&nbs=D p; From hearsay (the c.l.f newsgroup), I do not want HP Fortran.<BR> <BR>L I don't think that anyone is able or inclined (even the mega-bucks guy -- H=L urd) to re-vitalise what were some of the strengths that were positives for=  us.<BR> <BR> Regards, Paddy<BR> </FONT>  </P>   <FONT SIZE=3D3><BR>  <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  <BR>G "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged<BR> B and confidential information intended only for the use of the <BR>F addressees named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of <BR>G this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise<BR> F the sender.  You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, <BR>; distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.<BR>  <BR>E If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid <BR> E immediately.  Any views expressed in this email are those of the <BR> A individual sender except where the sender expressly and with <BR> G authority states them to be the views of TransGrid.  TransGrid uses<BR> B virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses<BR>  contained in any attachment.<BR> <BR>@ Please note the email address for TransGrid personnel is now<BR>( firstname.lastname@transgrid.com.au"<BR> <BR>K ***********************************************************************<BR>  </FONT>  </BODY>  </HTML> ) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C55C58.6DF92C2B--    ------------------------------   Date: 19 May 2005 12:36:42 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results+ Message-ID: <3f3fipF5od5aU1@individual.net>   0 In article <118o81ith00pl49@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > John Smith wrote:  >> JF Mezei wrote: >>  H >>>If you're going to be commodity product, it is true that R&D isn't as? >>>important. You are only differentiated from competitors with	
 >>>productionsG >>>and distribution costs. HP isn't very good on both of those aspects.S >>   >>   >> True but not complete:i >> fL >> You are also differentiated from your competitors by your advertising andM >> marketing efforts which are designed to position your 'value statement' totN >> prospective customers. A we all know too well, HP's advertising & marketing7 >> of the things that truly add value has been abysmal.g >> L >> . >>   >> rG >>>In terms of Cisco, it sells premium products with features not foundm >>>onlB >>>cheap routers. And in order to maintain its edge on those cheap >>>routers,tC >>>it needs to spend much on R&D to constantly improve its product.0 >>>uC >>>Look at VMS. The lack of true R&D has caused most competitors to 
 >>>surpassH >>>or nearly meet the huge leads that VMS used to have in GUI, security,I >>>clustering. The VMS engineers have been stuck in ports for much of the C >>>last decade as well as long periods with stagnating development.s >> a >>  I >> Even so, a value-oriented advertising campaign for VMS would have beenaN >> useful. We all know people who used to be in the VMS world, who still thinkF >> that it's a great os, and who are now in positions where they couldL >> influencve purchaes of VMS if they only knew it was alive/keeping up with >> the Jones's.d > H > Well, there's a fly in that ointment.  After the people who put their B > reputations on the line in a 2001 timeframe, and got deepfried, + > observers of that will be rather careful.  > G > I'm aware that some people don't like to hear this subject.  Well it dK > happened.  It happened to people with long memories, and was observed by -H > more people with long memories.  Fool me once maybe, not twice.  That C > will be the attitude.  The advertising will have to be good, and   > protracted, and convincing.i >   F I guess we (here in c.o.v) have never given it much thought, but maybeE the reason they don't advertise VMS is they figure it isn't worth therD investment because they probably can't win back the trust they lost. :-(    bill   -- rJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   3   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:41:32 -0400h# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results, Message-ID: <XbWdnb2b1dAFChHfRVn-pw@igs.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:2 > In article <118o81ith00pl49@corp.supernews.com>,+ > Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >> John Smith wrote: >>> JF Mezei wrote:  >>>jG >>>> If you're going to be commodity product, it is true that R&D isn'tGD >>>> as important. You are only differentiated from competitors with >>>> productionH@ >>>> and distribution costs. HP isn't very good on both of those
 >>>> aspects.O >>>@ >>>e >>> True but not complete: >>>o= >>> You are also differentiated from your competitors by your D >>> advertising and marketing efforts which are designed to positionF >>> your 'value statement' to prospective customers. A we all know tooC >>> well, HP's advertising & marketing of the things that truly adda >>> value has been abysmal.5 >>>s >>>a >>>h >>>uC >>>> In terms of Cisco, it sells premium products with features noto
 >>>> found on5D >>>> cheap routers. And in order to maintain its edge on those cheap
 >>>> routers,pE >>>> it needs to spend much on R&D to constantly improve its product.a >>>>E >>>> Look at VMS. The lack of true R&D has caused most competitors to0 >>>> surpass@ >>>> or nearly meet the huge leads that VMS used to have in GUI,E >>>> security, clustering. The VMS engineers have been stuck in portst= >>>> for much of the last decade as well as long periods withr >>>> stagnating development. >>>  >>>:E >>> Even so, a value-oriented advertising campaign for VMS would have.D >>> been useful. We all know people who used to be in the VMS world,F >>> who still think that it's a great os, and who are now in positionsD >>> where they could influencve purchaes of VMS if they only knew it* >>> was alive/keeping up with the Jones's. >>H >> Well, there's a fly in that ointment.  After the people who put theirB >> reputations on the line in a 2001 timeframe, and got deepfried,, >> observers of that will be rather careful. >>G >> I'm aware that some people don't like to hear this subject.  Well itb? >> happened.  It happened to people with long memories, and was=G >> observed by more people with long memories.  Fool me once maybe, nottF >> twice.  That will be the attitude.  The advertising will have to be( >> good, and protracted, and convincing. >> >=H > I guess we (here in c.o.v) have never given it much thought, but maybeG > the reason they don't advertise VMS is they figure it isn't worth the F > investment because they probably can't win back the trust they lost.      H That's why many here, for many years, have said that the 'mea culpa' was also required.  / Curly wouldn't do it. Carly(tm) wouldn't do it.@  K Hopefully Hurd will stand up and say "We f*cked you over and we're going to.C fix it". That stance, a hefty dose of internal-HP attitude change &iK education,  and some effective sustained advertising & marketing *can* stopeJ the rot and begin to turn things around - perhaps not a lot, but enough toE give everyone, exisiting customers and prospective new customers, theeK confidence that VMS isn't going to disappear in our lifetimes (professional 
 or physical).a   --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.t   ------------------------------   Date: 19 May 2005 14:17:09 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results+ Message-ID: <3f3lf4F5sn38U2@individual.net>   , In article <XbWdnb2b1dAFChHfRVn-pw@igs.net>,& 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:3 >> In article <118o81ith00pl49@corp.supernews.com>, , >> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>> John Smith wrote:l >>>> JF Mezei wrote: >>>>H >>>>> If you're going to be commodity product, it is true that R&D isn'tE >>>>> as important. You are only differentiated from competitors with5 >>>>> productionA >>>>> and distribution costs. HP isn't very good on both of thosee >>>>> aspects. >>>> >>>> >>>> True but not complete:d >>>>> >>>> You are also differentiated from your competitors by yourE >>>> advertising and marketing efforts which are designed to positionlG >>>> your 'value statement' to prospective customers. A we all know tooaD >>>> well, HP's advertising & marketing of the things that truly add >>>> value has been abysmal. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>D >>>>> In terms of Cisco, it sells premium products with features not >>>>> found onE >>>>> cheap routers. And in order to maintain its edge on those cheapa >>>>> routers,F >>>>> it needs to spend much on R&D to constantly improve its product. >>>>>eF >>>>> Look at VMS. The lack of true R&D has caused most competitors to
 >>>>> surpassiA >>>>> or nearly meet the huge leads that VMS used to have in GUI,eF >>>>> security, clustering. The VMS engineers have been stuck in ports> >>>>> for much of the last decade as well as long periods with >>>>> stagnating development.@ >>>> >>>>F >>>> Even so, a value-oriented advertising campaign for VMS would haveE >>>> been useful. We all know people who used to be in the VMS world,1G >>>> who still think that it's a great os, and who are now in positions E >>>> where they could influencve purchaes of VMS if they only knew itP+ >>>> was alive/keeping up with the Jones's.  >>>iI >>> Well, there's a fly in that ointment.  After the people who put theirrC >>> reputations on the line in a 2001 timeframe, and got deepfried, - >>> observers of that will be rather careful.s >>>sH >>> I'm aware that some people don't like to hear this subject.  Well it@ >>> happened.  It happened to people with long memories, and wasH >>> observed by more people with long memories.  Fool me once maybe, notG >>> twice.  That will be the attitude.  The advertising will have to bet) >>> good, and protracted, and convincing.i >>>o >>I >> I guess we (here in c.o.v) have never given it much thought, but maybedH >> the reason they don't advertise VMS is they figure it isn't worth theG >> investment because they probably can't win back the trust they lost.  >  >  > J > That's why many here, for many years, have said that the 'mea culpa' was > also required. > 1 > Curly wouldn't do it. Carly(tm) wouldn't do it.r > M > Hopefully Hurd will stand up and say "We f*cked you over and we're going toaE > fix it". That stance, a hefty dose of internal-HP attitude change &iM > education,  and some effective sustained advertising & marketing *can* stopoL > the rot and begin to turn things around - perhaps not a lot, but enough toG > give everyone, exisiting customers and prospective new customers, thetM > confidence that VMS isn't going to disappear in our lifetimes (professionalk > or physical).  >   E Too bad there is no chance that a bunch of people from here could gettF together with Mr. Hurd to discuss this.  I, for one, would love to seeA VMS make major inroads back nto the DOD amrket, right down to theiC desktop.  With the real (and growing) need for security as IT moves.@ closer and closer to the frontlines (even that term is becomeingI meaningless today) there is a growing need for more reliability, securityoD and yes, disaster recovery.  All things VMS does very well.  I thinkD there are not many here who think that a port to the dominant 64bit D architecture (read my lips, it ain't Itanium) is necessary and goingD to come if VMS is to survive.  With this would come desktop presenceD again.  And a chance to once again run VMS from top to bottom.  EvenF though everyone here knows I am more of a Unix guy than a VMS guy evenC I would see this as a great thing.  I've still got a good ten yearscD left and would gladly become as much an expert on VMS as I am now on Unix.t   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:39:49 -0700e# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>T Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results( Message-ID: <opsq01onj9zgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On 19 May 2005 14:17:09 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  . > In article <XbWdnb2b1dAFChHfRVn-pw@igs.net>,( > 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:i4 >>> In article <118o81ith00pl49@corp.supernews.com>,- >>> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>>> John Smith wrote: >>>>> JF Mezei wrote:i >>>>>iI >>>>>> If you're going to be commodity product, it is true that R&D isn'trF >>>>>> as important. You are only differentiated from competitors with >>>>>> productionbB >>>>>> and distribution costs. HP isn't very good on both of those >>>>>> aspects.c >>>>>e >>>>>i >>>>> True but not complete: >>>>>s? >>>>> You are also differentiated from your competitors by youraF >>>>> advertising and marketing efforts which are designed to positionH >>>>> your 'value statement' to prospective customers. A we all know tooE >>>>> well, HP's advertising & marketing of the things that truly add  >>>>> value has been abysmal.i >>>>>s >>>>>L >>>>>  >>>>>eE >>>>>> In terms of Cisco, it sells premium products with features not- >>>>>> found onpF >>>>>> cheap routers. And in order to maintain its edge on those cheap >>>>>> routers,6G >>>>>> it needs to spend much on R&D to constantly improve its product.1 >>>>>>G >>>>>> Look at VMS. The lack of true R&D has caused most competitors to9 >>>>>> surpassB >>>>>> or nearly meet the huge leads that VMS used to have in GUI,G >>>>>> security, clustering. The VMS engineers have been stuck in portsV? >>>>>> for much of the last decade as well as long periods with  >>>>>> stagnating development. >>>>>| >>>>> G >>>>> Even so, a value-oriented advertising campaign for VMS would havebF >>>>> been useful. We all know people who used to be in the VMS world,H >>>>> who still think that it's a great os, and who are now in positionsF >>>>> where they could influencve purchaes of VMS if they only knew it, >>>>> was alive/keeping up with the Jones's. >>>>J >>>> Well, there's a fly in that ointment.  After the people who put theirD >>>> reputations on the line in a 2001 timeframe, and got deepfried,. >>>> observers of that will be rather careful. >>>>I >>>> I'm aware that some people don't like to hear this subject.  Well itsA >>>> happened.  It happened to people with long memories, and wasaI >>>> observed by more people with long memories.  Fool me once maybe, not H >>>> twice.  That will be the attitude.  The advertising will have to be* >>>> good, and protracted, and convincing. >>>> >>>8J >>> I guess we (here in c.o.v) have never given it much thought, but maybeI >>> the reason they don't advertise VMS is they figure it isn't worth thecH >>> investment because they probably can't win back the trust they lost. >> >> >>K >> That's why many here, for many years, have said that the 'mea culpa' wasg >> also required.7 >>2 >> Curly wouldn't do it. Carly(tm) wouldn't do it. >>G >> Hopefully Hurd will stand up and say "We f*cked you over and we're  o >> going tolF >> fix it". That stance, a hefty dose of internal-HP attitude change &K >> education,  and some effective sustained advertising & marketing *can*  l >> stopnL >> the rot and begin to turn things around - perhaps not a lot, but enough   >> tosH >> give everyone, exisiting customers and prospective new customers, theB >> confidence that VMS isn't going to disappear in our lifetimes   >> (professional >> or physical). >> >tG > Too bad there is no chance that a bunch of people from here could getuH > together with Mr. Hurd to discuss this.  I, for one, would love to seeC > VMS make major inroads back nto the DOD amrket, right down to the E > desktop.  With the real (and growing) need for security as IT movessB > closer and closer to the frontlines (even that term is becomeingK > meaningless today) there is a growing need for more reliability, securityDF > and yes, disaster recovery.  All things VMS does very well.  I thinkE > there are not many here who think that a port to the dominant 64bit0F > architecture (read my lips, it ain't Itanium) is necessary and goingF > to come if VMS is to survive.  With this would come desktop presenceF > again.  And a chance to once again run VMS from top to bottom.  EvenH > though everyone here knows I am more of a Unix guy than a VMS guy evenE > I would see this as a great thing.  I've still got a good ten yearsiF > left and would gladly become as much an expert on VMS as I am now on > Unix.d  J Our biggest customer for PL/I is the NSA, and VMS management has decided   theyG don't need PL/I.  The problem is that VMS managment is an engineering  i drivenB company (it produces good product) and it is not run as a businessI enterprise in the traditional sense, with independent sales and marketinglK organizations.  In most companies with which I have worked in the past, theDC engineering organization had one customer, marketing.  Here it is  o topsy-turvy.  K It is an organizational problem.  The disaster of 9/11 creates a tremendous I opportunity for VMS, which I have seen very little effort to capitalize  ~ upon.~       >~ > bill >-   ------------------------------   Date: 19 May 2005 15:00:19 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HP 2Q05 results+ Message-ID: <3f3o03F5pq0kU1@individual.net>H  ( In article <opsq01onj9zgicya@hyrrokkin>,& 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:H > On 19 May 2005 14:17:09 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: > / >> In article <XbWdnb2b1dAFChHfRVn-pw@igs.net>,i) >> 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:- >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:5 >>>> In article <118o81ith00pl49@corp.supernews.com>,c. >>>> Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>>>> John Smith wrote:. >>>>>> JF Mezei wrote: >>>>>>J >>>>>>> If you're going to be commodity product, it is true that R&D isn'tG >>>>>>> as important. You are only differentiated from competitors with  >>>>>>> productionC >>>>>>> and distribution costs. HP isn't very good on both of thosed >>>>>>> aspects. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> True but not complete:t >>>>>>@ >>>>>> You are also differentiated from your competitors by yourG >>>>>> advertising and marketing efforts which are designed to position"I >>>>>> your 'value statement' to prospective customers. A we all know too F >>>>>> well, HP's advertising & marketing of the things that truly add >>>>>> value has been abysmal. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>F >>>>>>> In terms of Cisco, it sells premium products with features not >>>>>>> found onG >>>>>>> cheap routers. And in order to maintain its edge on those cheap  >>>>>>> routers,H >>>>>>> it needs to spend much on R&D to constantly improve its product. >>>>>>>wH >>>>>>> Look at VMS. The lack of true R&D has caused most competitors to >>>>>>> surpasstC >>>>>>> or nearly meet the huge leads that VMS used to have in GUI,nH >>>>>>> security, clustering. The VMS engineers have been stuck in ports@ >>>>>>> for much of the last decade as well as long periods with >>>>>>> stagnating development., >>>>>> >>>>>>H >>>>>> Even so, a value-oriented advertising campaign for VMS would haveG >>>>>> been useful. We all know people who used to be in the VMS world,nI >>>>>> who still think that it's a great os, and who are now in positions G >>>>>> where they could influencve purchaes of VMS if they only knew its- >>>>>> was alive/keeping up with the Jones's.o >>>>> K >>>>> Well, there's a fly in that ointment.  After the people who put theirmE >>>>> reputations on the line in a 2001 timeframe, and got deepfried,o/ >>>>> observers of that will be rather careful.a >>>>>oJ >>>>> I'm aware that some people don't like to hear this subject.  Well itB >>>>> happened.  It happened to people with long memories, and wasJ >>>>> observed by more people with long memories.  Fool me once maybe, notI >>>>> twice.  That will be the attitude.  The advertising will have to ber+ >>>>> good, and protracted, and convincing.c >>>>>, >>>>K >>>> I guess we (here in c.o.v) have never given it much thought, but maybeoJ >>>> the reason they don't advertise VMS is they figure it isn't worth theI >>>> investment because they probably can't win back the trust they lost.i >>>e >>>d >>>IL >>> That's why many here, for many years, have said that the 'mea culpa' was >>> also required. >>><3 >>> Curly wouldn't do it. Carly(tm) wouldn't do it.r >>>sH >>> Hopefully Hurd will stand up and say "We f*cked you over and we're   >>> going toG >>> fix it". That stance, a hefty dose of internal-HP attitude change &aL >>> education,  and some effective sustained advertising & marketing *can*   >>> stopM >>> the rot and begin to turn things around - perhaps not a lot, but enough  i >>> toI >>> give everyone, exisiting customers and prospective new customers, thetC >>> confidence that VMS isn't going to disappear in our lifetimes  m >>> (professionalw >>> or physical).  >>>m >>H >> Too bad there is no chance that a bunch of people from here could getI >> together with Mr. Hurd to discuss this.  I, for one, would love to seesD >> VMS make major inroads back nto the DOD amrket, right down to theF >> desktop.  With the real (and growing) need for security as IT movesC >> closer and closer to the frontlines (even that term is becomeingoL >> meaningless today) there is a growing need for more reliability, securityG >> and yes, disaster recovery.  All things VMS does very well.  I thinkfF >> there are not many here who think that a port to the dominant 64bitG >> architecture (read my lips, it ain't Itanium) is necessary and goingtG >> to come if VMS is to survive.  With this would come desktop presencedG >> again.  And a chance to once again run VMS from top to bottom.  Even I >> though everyone here knows I am more of a Unix guy than a VMS guy even F >> I would see this as a great thing.  I've still got a good ten yearsG >> left and would gladly become as much an expert on VMS as I am now on- >> Unix. > L > Our biggest customer for PL/I is the NSA, and VMS management has decided   > theyI > don't need PL/I.  The problem is that VMS managment is an engineering  7 > drivenD > company (it produces good product) and it is not run as a businessK > enterprise in the traditional sense, with independent sales and marketingeM > organizations.  In most companies with which I have worked in the past, the E > engineering organization had one customer, marketing.  Here it is    > topsy-turvy. > M > It is an organizational problem.  The disaster of 9/11 creates a tremendousRK > opportunity for VMS, which I have seen very little effort to capitalize  a > upon.d >   F Look at it from my point of view.  DOD has a system called "Blue ForceE Tracking" that is supposed to not only provide tactical advantage butgE also eliminate the possibility of "Friendly Fire" incidents.  It runs I on Windows.  Some configuration changes require a (often lengthy) reboot.-E Which do you think I would prefer in my Humvee?  Windows or VMS?  :-)i   bill     -- -J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:47:19 -0400y$ From: "Hein" <hein.nomail@hp.nomail>- Subject: Re: Kill multiple processes by name? , Message-ID: <428be19a$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  6 "John Brandon" <brandon@dalsemi.com> wrote in message + news:05051819425453@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com...e) > DeanW [dean.woodward@gmail.com] WRITES:  :n' >>Is there a tool that can kill a groupn@ >> of processes based on a wild-carded name, such as TCPIP$SS_*? >oI > You may want to search for PSTAT - it is a C application that has some s > useful  built in tools  " Or you could us a perl 'one-liner'  @ $ perl -e "foreach (`show system`) { system(""stop/id=$1"")  if  /^([0-9A-F]+)\s+TCPIP.SS_/ }"X   Hein.    ------------------------------   Date: 19 May 2005 12:47:47 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f3g7jF5od5aU2@individual.net>t  0 In article <118nmsn58pej1ba@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > H >> You gat a reference for that?  I do IT for the Army and just returnedF >> from a school that covered pretty much everything the Army is doing0 >> today and there was no mention of Mac at all. > A > Perhaps the Army has been subverted by the borg or the penguin?   C The Army (actually DOD and probably the whole government) is become A very interested in COTS.  Anyone who has any experience with the xB government procurement process knows it is inefficient (to say theD least!) and drives prices up by it's inherent method.  It also takesB so long that the item being procured is often obsolete by the timeC the process moves from start to finish (this was true 20-some yearseA ago when I wrote my last proposal from the DOD side.) COTS is theD	 answer.  a   > I > I seem to remember that one class you talked about had a rather biased s  > and unknowledgable instructor? >   A I wouldn't say unknowledgable, but definitely biased.  One is not B unknowledgable when one lacks knowledge about things outside their@ scope.  For example, I can't fly the Shuttle.  And for those who@ think this is an Army problem, I should point out the instructorD is a contract instructor and actually employed by Genereal Dynamics.A So the question then becomes, "How deep into America's industrialhB base does this view of VMS go?"  And the bigger question is, "WhatE is HP going to do about it?"  Sadly, I think we can answer the secondo one.   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------    Date: 19 May 2005 07:40:35 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <3bRATAZ+MaUy@eisner.encompasserve.org>H  V In article <3f1cvbF5gm53U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> )+ >>    KDE and Gnome aren't their, either.  h > L > Why?  Specifically, what can the Mac GUI do that KDE can't (something that6 > someone other than a Mac fanatic might find useful!)  C    I don't have my kid's Linux system to sit down and do a detailedfD    comparison right now, but I did try both KDE and Gnome and it wasD    amaizing how poor they were.  For example it took a terrible longF    time just to find a utility that would start a dial-out connection F    for folks who weren't root.  When we did get it working it was one 4    of the many shell commands that claimed to do so.  @    Not one of the GUI interfaces to that simple function worked.   ------------------------------   Date: 19 May 2005 13:01:59 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f3h27F5qnoaU1@individual.net>f  3 In article <3bRATAZ+MaUy@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:X > In article <3f1cvbF5gm53U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> , >>>    KDE and Gnome aren't their, either.   >> NM >> Why?  Specifically, what can the Mac GUI do that KDE can't (something that 7 >> someone other than a Mac fanatic might find useful!)  > E >    I don't have my kid's Linux system to sit down and do a detailed3                             ^^^^^  + I actually meant running on a real OS.  :-)e  F >    comparison right now, but I did try both KDE and Gnome and it wasF >    amaizing how poor they were.  For example it took a terrible longH >    time just to find a utility that would start a dial-out connection " >    for folks who weren't root.    E Do you mean a raw dial-out terminal or a dial-out network connection?FA The first I would imagine is not used enough that anyone bothered>B (although adding it would be trivial if anyone cared).  The second# one I found in a matter of seconds.    K>Internet>KPPPiF Of course, with the advances broadband has made lately I have to admit' that I was surprised to find it at all.s  H >                                 When we did get it working it was one 6 >    of the many shell commands that claimed to do so. > B >    Not one of the GUI interfaces to that simple function worked.  D Sounds more like an admin problem rather than an appliaction problemC but then you did say Linux.  That's synonomous with lack of qualitym? and experience.  You do realize that in a properly administered C system, no matter what the OS, access to dial-out lines is normallyaC very restricted anyway.  Don't want to get a surprise in the end ofeF month phone bill.  It is very uncommon to allow everybody write accessA to the serial lines (needed if anyone other than root is going tog# dial-out), a major security flaw.  s  F bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 19 May 2005 07:51:03 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)d: Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising3 Message-ID: <k$eLRtEjnF+4@eisner.encompasserve.org>a   In article <nospam.News.Bob-7F48DA.20125518052005@news.verizon.net>, Bob Harris <nospam.News.Bob@remove.Smith-Harris.us> writes: > K > As I recall, it was under 100 virii from 1984 through today.  If that is   > lots of virii, so be it. >   D    Early on our Macs kept getting hit with virii and our PCs didn't.    That says a lot.o  H    The big difference being that obviously Apple fixed the problem right    off.o   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:00:24 +0000 (UTC) ( From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising5 Message-ID: <d6i2l8$8q9$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>   q In article <3bRATAZ+MaUy@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:rX > In article <3f1cvbF5gm53U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >>  - > >>    KDE and Gnome aren't their, either.  p > > N > > Why?  Specifically, what can the Mac GUI do that KDE can't (something that8 > > someone other than a Mac fanatic might find useful!) > E >    I don't have my kid's Linux system to sit down and do a detailedvF >    comparison right now, but I did try both KDE and Gnome and it wasF >    amaizing how poor they were.  For example it took a terrible longH >    time just to find a utility that would start a dial-out connection H >    for folks who weren't root.  When we did get it working it was one 6 >    of the many shell commands that claimed to do so. > B >    Not one of the GUI interfaces to that simple function worked. >   / c.o.v inmates advocating linux vs apple. funny.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:24:30 -0400t# From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov>a: Subject: RE: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising: Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDGEGDGGAA.dallen@nist.gov>   > -----Original Message-----F > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]On > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon & > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 8:48 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < > Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising >s >R2 > In article <118nmsn58pej1ba@corp.supernews.com>,, > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >XJ > >> You gat a reference for that?  I do IT for the Army and just returnedH > >> from a school that covered pretty much everything the Army is doing2 > >> today and there was no mention of Mac at all. > >gC > > Perhaps the Army has been subverted by the borg or the penguin?  > E > The Army (actually DOD and probably the whole government) is become B > very interested in COTS.  Anyone who has any experience with theD > government procurement process knows it is inefficient (to say theF > least!) and drives prices up by it's inherent method.  It also takesD > so long that the item being procured is often obsolete by the timeE > the process moves from start to finish (this was true 20-some years*C > ago when I wrote my last proposal from the DOD side.) COTS is they	 > answer.s >y  E Speaking from some extensive personal experience inside the .mil/.govtJ procurement world I'd have to disagree. In my experience DOD (and for thatP matter other .gov) COTS procurements often start simple and wind up a convolutedN mess of custom mods to the original COTS reqirements. After 35 years of seeingH the same sad mistakes repeated by contracting official after contractingP official I've given up hope that they will ever learn what COTS (at least in theN IT world) means and stick to in practice. It's too often just another buzzwordA that's floated about to lend credence to yet another FUBARed RFP.o  . Pardon me if I sound jaded and cynical - I am.   Danc   ------------------------------   Date: 19 May 2005 13:42:05 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f3jddF5q38dU1@individual.net>*  5 In article <d6i2l8$8q9$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,*+ 	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: s > In article <3bRATAZ+MaUy@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:mY >> In article <3f1cvbF5gm53U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:5 >> >> . >> >>    KDE and Gnome aren't their, either.   >> > eO >> > Why?  Specifically, what can the Mac GUI do that KDE can't (something that 9 >> > someone other than a Mac fanatic might find useful!)u >> tF >>    I don't have my kid's Linux system to sit down and do a detailedG >>    comparison right now, but I did try both KDE and Gnome and it was G >>    amaizing how poor they were.  For example it took a terrible longeI >>    time just to find a utility that would start a dial-out connection rI >>    for folks who weren't root.  When we did get it working it was one  7 >>    of the many shell commands that claimed to do so.o >> lC >>    Not one of the GUI interfaces to that simple function worked.  >> e > 1 > c.o.v inmates advocating linux vs apple. funny.s  F Actually, I'm advocating X11, which works quite well on VMS (and wouldF work better if HP gave a damn!)  I am the last person in the world youG will find advocating Linux.  If Linux were to become the only OS in useuD in the world I would brush up on my, "Do you want fries with that!".  B Oh yeah, and the discussion is actually only about Window ManagersB as that is the only thing that the Mac has that isn't available on any unix based X11 system.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------   Date: 19 May 2005 14:03:03 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Mac advertising vs. ideas for VMS advertising+ Message-ID: <3f3kknF5sn38U1@individual.net>   : In article <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDGEGDGGAA.dallen@nist.gov>,& 	"Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes: >a >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:r >>F >> The Army (actually DOD and probably the whole government) is becomeC >> very interested in COTS.  Anyone who has any experience with theoE >> government procurement process knows it is inefficient (to say the G >> least!) and drives prices up by it's inherent method.  It also takestE >> so long that the item being procured is often obsolete by the timeiF >> the process moves from start to finish (this was true 20-some yearsD >> ago when I wrote my last proposal from the DOD side.) COTS is the
 >> answer. >> > G > Speaking from some extensive personal experience inside the .mil/.govyL > procurement world I'd have to disagree. In my experience DOD (and for thatR > matter other .gov) COTS procurements often start simple and wind up a convoluted  D Ah, but you used the "P" word.  Anytime procurement gets involved itC becomes a fiasco. Mandatory Anecdote:  My last procurement from theyB DOD side was 23 years ago.  In order to move onto a new and betterE job I was tasked with writting a proposal to acquire Tandy Model 16'spC for office automation.  It took nearly a year to write the proposal C in such a manner that we would actually get what we wanted.  By theiD time it was finished and ready for the street the computer we wantedB was on the GSA schedule thus eliminating the need for the proposal and voiding all of my work.o  F When I said COTS, I meant OTS.  I have met many a soldier who has comeE back from Iraq for a conference or R&R with a StarCard and a shopping F list.  A quick trip to Staples and footlocker loaded with switches andF Brother Fax machines (why fax machines you ask?  In my current unit weF have two "lightweight" Army fax machines.  They are in big green boxesE with handles and labeled "two man carry".  A replacement head, if you H can find one, costs $580.  A brother fax machine costs what?  maybe $30.G go figure!)  Networking and computer gear today is all commercial.  WhyeD bother with the lengthy complicated (convoluted) procurement process when what you need is OTS?      P > mess of custom mods to the original COTS reqirements. After 35 years of seeingJ > the same sad mistakes repeated by contracting official after contracting > official r  B That's why you cut the contracting official out whenever possible.  M >     I've given up hope that they will ever learn what COTS (at least in the>, > IT world) means and stick to in practice.   H It will never replace all procurement (you can't buy an F11 COTS :-) but2 it is making a lot of equipment aquisition easier.  N >                                         It's too often just another buzzwordC > that's floated about to lend credence to yet another FUBARed RFP.e  D When an RFP is involved, it's really not COTS any more, it's just an! old fashioned procurement circus.i   > 0 > Pardon me if I sound jaded and cynical - I am.  H Not surprised.  I did it from both sides, DOD and contractor.  I learnedG a lot about business, especially the part about "The customer is alwaysiF right", no matter how stupid what he asks for is.  ;-)  The really sad1 part is I kinda miss the business.  Both sides.  b   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------    Date: 19 May 2005 12:30:19 -05004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)& Subject: message ident length question3 Message-ID: <Llo7olmtQplm@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  ; I've run into an interesting anomoly with the length of theiA identification portion of messages that can be output.  A messagecD output usually consists of "facility-severity-identification, text".@ The message manual 31 is the max length (of prefix plus ident itD seems), but the longest length ident I've be able to output is aboutB 15.  If prefix plus ident is less than 31, but more than 15, I can< compile and link it, but I won't see the full ident message.  = Did I miss something in the docs about ident <= 15 in length?g  E Here are some example bits so you can play along at home if you like.:   [start example_msg.c]s /*    EXAMPLE_MSG.C  C    Program to demo message length anomoly.  The message manual saysn>    that messages can be up to 31 characters in length, but theD    output length seems to be much less, about 15.  Granted the totalD    message length includes the prefix length, but the display lengthB    is still less than the message length minus the prefix length. B    If prefix plus message length exceeds 31, then the message file    won't compile.r  <    This demo consists of two source files; EXAMPLE_MSG.C and    EXAMPLE_MSG_MSG.MSG.t  A    $ message/obj EXAMPLE_MSG_MSG.MSG  ! creates the msg .OBJ file   ?    [if you don't have SDL use the EXAMPLE_MSG_MSG.H file below]i	    [else]dA    $ message/sdl EXAMPLE_MSG_MSG.MSG  ! creates the msg .SDL filerA    $ sdl/alpha/lang=cc EXAMPLE_MSG_MSG.SDL  ! creates the .H filep
    [endif]  =    $ cc EXAMPLE_MSG.C  ! uses .H file to get msg symbol namest&    $ link EXAMPLE_MSG, EXAMPLE_MSG_MSGG    If argv[1][0] == 'L' or 'l' then output the long message.  Otherwisei    output the short message.  '    $ em :== $thisdevdir:EXAMPLE_MSG.EXEo    $ emd5    %EMSG-E-SHORT_IS_FINE, this message length is fineo    $ em long4    %EMSG-E-THIS_MESSAGE_IS, this message is too long  H    As you can see from the .MSG file the long message ident is truncated
    after _IS.    */ #include "example_msg_msg.h"  " int main ( int argc, char **argv )   {I
   int status;i     status = EMSG_SHORT_IS_FINE;   if ( argc >= 2 )      {6      if (( argv[1][0] == 'L') || ( argv[1][0] == 'l'))/         status = EMSG_THIS_MESSAGE_IS_TOO_LONG;       }   return( status);   }v [end example_msg.c]    [start example_msg_msg.msg]l$ .TITLE          Example Message file- .FACILITY       EMSG,1793       /PREFIX=EMSG_s .BASE           1o   .SEVERITY       ERROR>- SHORT_IS_FINE   <this message length is fine>i: THIS_MESSAGE_IS_TOO_LONG        <this message is too long>   .END [end example_msg_msg.msg]l   [start example_msg_msg.h]e! #pragma __member_alignment __savei #pragma __nomember_alignment #define EMSG_FACILITY 3841$ #define EMSG_SHORT_IS_FINE 251756554/ #define EMSG_THIS_MESSAGE_IS_TOO_LONG 251756562n$ #pragma __member_alignment __restore [end example_msg_msg.h]n   ------------------------------    Date: 18 May 2005 23:02:21 -0700 From: tomarsin2015@comcast.net- Subject: Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")tC Message-ID: <1116482541.003520.231590@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E No at an R2D2 and a C3P0 controller, maybe just a faster cdrom. There B was a thread in one group about problems reading copies of disc onF older RRDXX series cdrom drives!!!! Since the poster stated that it isD a COPY and not a ORIGINAL  maybe just maybe the 4x RRD45 cannot readE the disc completely. I have a Infoserver 1000 with RRD43  and another E with compatable IBM cdrom drives. Every now and then a copy of a discuE will mount, but then go into a mount/dismout verify condition. I even D had problems with these older cdroms reading original HP lateset and greatest CDS disc. phillips   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:32:53 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> - Subject: Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")c, Message-ID: <428C32F5.624FE764@teksavvy.com>   tomarsin2015@comcast.net wrote:i > G > No at an R2D2 and a C3P0 controller, maybe just a faster cdrom. ThereaD > was a thread in one group about problems reading copies of disc on& > older RRDXX series cdrom drives!!!!   H I disagree. I have seen the R2D2 plug into just about anything, so it isH very versatile. And the C3PO controller is well versed in many protocolsO and can thus interface with a great deal of diverse configurations and formats.e  F Digital could have gotten great deal more exposure if it had stuck its( logo on the units, especially the R2D2s.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:45:53 +0000 (UTC)t% From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org> - Subject: Re: Now what do I do? (Rather long")r6 Message-ID: <slrnd8oh7o.8r0.usenet@gaia.roc2.gblx.net>  [ In article <428C1A72.85CC9B70@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:e! > tomarsin2015@comcast.net wrote:  >> l >> HelloA >> Could if be that the RRD45 is not reading the copy correctly??d >a: > You probably need an R2D2 unit with a C3PO controller...  ? Not best of options since they frequently need maintenance. :-)a   -Dan   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:34:06 +0000 (UTC)e3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>a3 Subject: Re: Screen descriptions in HP Cobol on VMS-> Message-ID: <d6hq2t$51$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>   Hi,m  G I am of the opinion that DECforms was one of the key strategic f*ck-ups I that, while not actually instigating, certainly hastened the recession ofn VMSlH as a development platform (and DEC as a company). Furthermore, I suspectI that IBM, and others on the FIMS consortium, merely continued to fund theaL project so they could enjoy the spectacle of Digital disappearing up its ownK DECforms rathole! That said, if you'd like to learn a complete new language>G (IFDL) and run it without a debugger (anyone who's worked with DECforms>I will appreciate the useful trace output "You are on the right side of thepD equation") or a useful Panel Editor then, by all means, go DECforms.  G Getting back to your original queries both here and in COV, what is the> actual problem?r  L 1) Your Screen-Section strategy is a perfectly acceptable way to go. What do you think is wrong with it?n  I 2) Was it you that was questioning the refresh time? If so, seeing as howlL Don Braffit has confirmed that DEC COBOL uses the SMG$ utility, you may wantJ to ask him why he doesn't batch the screen output (if in fact he doesn't).I Was it also you with the VT220 CRT? Have you tried with any reasonable VTu/ terminal emulator and telnet? Is it still slow?n  K 3) If you really pine for some sort of IBM 3270 emulation block i/o thingy,nE then WHY? (Having said that I recall that FMS had some such emulationhI functionality.) If you are using ACMS (a transaction monitor analogous tooI CICS) then I can see the requirement. DEC decided to create TDMS for this,K purpose. It's much like a limited FMS but does have the asynchronous recordtI i/o capability where you have one process (the CP) controlling many CRTs..K TDMS has just been ported to Alpha so I assume it will also be making it toSC Itanium, but I guess you should really go DECforms if you need this  functionality.  L 4) Are you limited to a dumb terminal/character-cell interface? If not, thenL why don't you front end your application with VB  (or whatever) and have VMSI and COBOL serve the back-end? Then we can have another lengthy discussionn about middleware :-)  E So Volker, please restate your requirements/problems/restrictions ando someoneeL may be able to offer some specific advice. For the following discussion I'llI assume you're restricted to dumb terminals and you've landed this VMS andhB COBOL box and you want to know what tool(s) should you use for the user-interface: -m  I "Options that I know of for VMS character-cell user-interface developmentT with COBOL"g  = a) COBOL's own DISPLAY and ACCEPT verbs. (With or without the> SCREEN-SECTION)s  7 Nothing wrong with it! Can provide a perfectly adequatem3 "missionary-position" user-interface. Easy to code.   . b) The SMG$ (Screen Manager) Run-Time Library.  H At the dollar ($) prompt, type HELP RTL SMG$ and you will see all of theH routines that you can call to paint your screens. There is also completeL documentation somewhere on the web. Your interest may lie with the buffering8 routines (have a look at SMG$*_DISPLAY_UPDATE routines.)  C SMG $ is VERY powerful and the best thing is it comes free with theaH operating system and supports quite a few CRT types. It is however quiteG complex and it will take a while for you to get your head around if you  haven't done it before.t  D c) The $QIO System Service to the Terminal Driver and io$_readverify  L I don't recommend that you go this way and only include it for completeness.E This is a very low-level interface. (You have to code your own escaperJ sequences to change video-attributes etc). But if you are interested, lookL at the Terminal Driver section of the I/O Users Reference manual. (I think?)   d) FMS Forms Management System  K This is the BEST character-cell forms product EVER invented! (There is also G an FMS to Motif converter available) There is a fantastic full-functiongK Panel-Editor and your forms are stored in separate files (or a library) andDJ can be compiled and linked in with your COBOL object code for performance. See docs on the web.  H The downside is it costs money and HP make you pay through the nose even5 though they flatly refuse to enhance this product :-(f   e) TDMS (Some acronym :-)s  L Like FMS but record-oriented and has asynchronous capabilities. I'd only useH it if I was using ACMS.  Costs money. HP have only just ported to ALPHA.I (Probably about the same time they announce the death of the Alpha chip?)a  ? f) DECforms. Piece o' shit. The drug-inspired act of a mad man.o  J If you're using ACMS then you probably need this. (But then there's the SI% interface but I digress) Costs money.o  L The last I heard (probably about 5 years ago) FMS had sold 750,000 licenses,I TDMS had sold 150,000 and DECforms 100,000. The Forms Development Team atiH DEC took all of the lovely revenue from FMS and P*ssed it up against the DECforms folly of a wall.    Regards Richard Maheri  J PS. The above may not be a completely objective analysis and may be tinted# with my own bias and prejudices :-)g  ? "William M. Klein" <wmklein@nospam.netcom.com> wrote in messagep5 news:Sn6ie.181063$QY2.46272@fe01.news.easynews.com... H > I am NOT a VMS programmer, but DEC was the "father" of the FIMS (Forms	 InterfaceaJ > Management System) definition - that was adopted by CODASYL and *almost* became> > a COBOL Standard.  There is a LONG PDF document about it at: >n >t >eP http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/PDF/decforms_prog_ref_gd.PDF >0J > If you are developing for VMS, I would check your reference material for "FIMS".2 >A > -- n > Bill Klein >  wmklein <at> ix.netcom.comc9 > "Volker Englisch" <eh97@despammed.com> wrote in message1& > news:d6a0l3$2oq$1@rrz.allgaeu.org... > > Hi,r > ><K > > I was used to describe screen layouts using the SCREEN SECTION or doing:J > > a DISPLAY ... AT ... in a cobol program. In another newsgroup, someoneE > > mentioned that there were much better ways to design and handle ai > > screen for dialogues.i > >>J > > On AS/400 et al., I'm used to define screens as (DDS) files and handleJ > > them as TRANSACTIONAL files from within cobol. But this is a AS/400 or > > Mainframe way, isn't it? > >cH > > So I'm curious how you define and handle full screen i/o in Cobol on > > VMS? > >o
 > > Volker >  >l   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:52:52 -0400'$ From: "Hein" <hein.nomail@hp.nomail>3 Subject: Re: Screen descriptions in HP Cobol on VMS>, Message-ID: <428be2e2$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  ? "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote in message  8 news:d6hq2t$51$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > Hi,h > I > I am of the opinion that DECforms was one of the key strategic f*ck-upslL > that, while not actually instigating, certainly hastened the recession of  > VMSd :s <snip long rant> :>  H So Richard... please tell us how you really feel about all this :-) :-).  F Actually IMHO Richard hits all the nails, including the 'nails on the   coffin' right smack on the head.M I largerly concur: SCREEN SECTION has its place (as do simple DISPLAYS). FMS >  is the best, SMG when needed,...I Thanks for taking the time to pen it all down, and (re-)asking the right l
 questions.   fwiw,  Hein.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:49:40 +0200n3 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com>p3 Subject: Re: Screen descriptions in HP Cobol on VMSe= Message-ID: <428cb594$0$78285$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>l   Richard Maher wrote: > Hi,p >l@ > I am of the opinion that DECforms was one of the key strategicG > f*ck-ups that, while not actually instigating, certainly hastened the  > recession of VMSB > as a development platform (and DEC as a company). Furthermore, IG > suspect that IBM, and others on the FIMS consortium, merely continuedeB > to fund the project so they could enjoy the spectacle of DigitalG > disappearing up its own DECforms rathole! That said, if you'd like to D > learn a complete new language (IFDL) and run it without a debuggerE > (anyone who's worked with DECforms will appreciate the useful trace>G > output "You are on the right side of the equation") or a useful Panel>) > Editor then, by all means, go DECforms.i >aE > Getting back to your original queries both here and in COV, what iso > the actual problem?  >tF > 1) Your Screen-Section strategy is a perfectly acceptable way to go.% > What do you think is wrong with it?  >eG > 2) Was it you that was questioning the refresh time? If so, seeing asnE > how Don Braffit has confirmed that DEC COBOL uses the SMG$ utility,aG > you may want to ask him why he doesn't batch the screen output (if iniF > fact he doesn't). Was it also you with the VT220 CRT? Have you triedH > with any reasonable VT terminal emulator and telnet? Is it still slow? >aE > 3) If you really pine for some sort of IBM 3270 emulation block i/o E > thingy, then WHY? (Having said that I recall that FMS had some such @ > emulation functionality.) If you are using ACMS (a transaction@ > monitor analogous to CICS) then I can see the requirement. DECG > decided to create TDMS for this purpose. It's much like a limited FMSaE > but does have the asynchronous record i/o capability where you have G > one process (the CP) controlling many CRTs. TDMS has just been portedaB > to Alpha so I assume it will also be making it to Itanium, but IE > guess you should really go DECforms if you need this functionality.n >VD > 4) Are you limited to a dumb terminal/character-cell interface? IfA > not, then why don't you front end your application with VB  (oriG > whatever) and have VMS and COBOL serve the back-end? Then we can havei1 > another lengthy discussion about middleware :-)d >cG > So Volker, please restate your requirements/problems/restrictions ande	 > someone > > may be able to offer some specific advice. For the followingG > discussion I'll assume you're restricted to dumb terminals and you'velA > landed this VMS and COBOL box and you want to know what tool(s) * > should you use for the user-interface: - > ? > "Options that I know of for VMS character-cell user-interfaceb > development with COBOL"s > ? > a) COBOL's own DISPLAY and ACCEPT verbs. (With or without thed > SCREEN-SECTION)  >i9 > Nothing wrong with it! Can provide a perfectly adequaten5 > "missionary-position" user-interface. Easy to code.n > 0 > b) The SMG$ (Screen Manager) Run-Time Library. >rF > At the dollar ($) prompt, type HELP RTL SMG$ and you will see all ofE > the routines that you can call to paint your screens. There is alsotD > complete documentation somewhere on the web. Your interest may lieB > with the buffering routines (have a look at SMG$*_DISPLAY_UPDATE > routines.) >aE > SMG $ is VERY powerful and the best thing is it comes free with theiD > operating system and supports quite a few CRT types. It is howeverA > quite complex and it will take a while for you to get your heade' > around if you haven't done it before.c >oF > c) The $QIO System Service to the Terminal Driver and io$_readverify > @ > I don't recommend that you go this way and only include it forE > completeness. This is a very low-level interface. (You have to codesG > your own escape sequences to change video-attributes etc). But if you F > are interested, look at the Terminal Driver section of the I/O Users > Reference manual. (I think?) >0  > d) FMS Forms Management System >iE > This is the BEST character-cell forms product EVER invented! (There9C > is also an FMS to Motif converter available) There is a fantasticeB > full-function Panel-Editor and your forms are stored in separateB > files (or a library) and can be compiled and linked in with your9 > COBOL object code for performance. See docs on the web.s > E > The downside is it costs money and HP make you pay through the nosei< > even though they flatly refuse to enhance this product :-( >u > e) TDMS (Some acronym :-)l > E > Like FMS but record-oriented and has asynchronous capabilities. I'd+B > only use it if I was using ACMS.  Costs money. HP have only justB > ported to ALPHA. (Probably about the same time they announce the > death of the Alpha chip?)v >iA > f) DECforms. Piece o' shit. The drug-inspired act of a mad man.t > E > If you're using ACMS then you probably need this. (But then there's@. > the SI interface but I digress) Costs money. > D > The last I heard (probably about 5 years ago) FMS had sold 750,000A > licenses, TDMS had sold 150,000 and DECforms 100,000. The Forms E > Development Team at DEC took all of the lovely revenue from FMS andp4 > P*ssed it up against the DECforms folly of a wall. >  > Regards Richard MaherD >dE > PS. The above may not be a completely objective analysis and may ben, > tinted with my own bias and prejudices :-) >t Richard,  K As soon as I started reading about DECForms panel editor and IFDL my brain  J short circuited and I was transported through space and time into another H zone.  Soon after fear and loathing took over and my dog had to give me J mouth to mouth to bring me out of it.  Man, that DECForms sh*t can really  screw with your mind.r  + Dr. Dweeb - still trembling at the memories   # ps: What is "fims" mean in danish ?    ------------------------------   Date: 19 May 2005 11:08:44 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Valid IP Addressw+ Message-ID: <3f3adsF5n5g7U1@individual.net>   E Congratulations.  You just did the kids homework and just in time formD the end of the semester too.  Now he can join all his business major# buddies down at the local pub.  :-)n   bill  * In article <428C1F7E.5080302@bigpond.com>,: 	David B Sneddon - bigpond <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> writes:- > contracer11@gmail.com mentioned in passing: H >> I'm looking for a command procedure to verify if a specific Ip addres >> is valid. >> Example:| >> m >> $ @ip 192.168.1.100 >>  ' >>    192.168.1.100 -> valid Ip address  >>   >> $ @ip 192.168.1.897 >> n) >>    192.168.1.897 -> invalid Ip address  >> y! >> How could I make this in DCL ?s >> e >> Thanks in advance.- >> - >> - >  > You mean something like... >   > $ ! Procedure: VALIDATE_IP.COM > $ set noon > $ exit_status = %X10000004 > $ say = "write sys$output"* > $ address = f$edit(P1,"COLLAPSE,UPCASE")% > $ octet1 = f$element(0,".",address)c+ > $ octet2 = f$element(1,".",address) - ".'o+ > $ octet3 = f$element(2,".",address) - "." + > $ octet4 = f$element(3,".",address) - "." M > $ if (f$length(octet1)*f$length(octet2)*f$length(octet3)*f$length(octet4) -o >        .eq. 0)? > $   then say "%Invalid address -- one or more octets missing"x > $ else, > $ type1 = (f$type(octet1) .eqs. "INTEGER"), > $ type2 = (f$type(octet2) .eqs. "INTEGER"), > $ type3 = (f$type(octet3) .eqs. "INTEGER"), > $ type4 = (f$type(octet4) .eqs. "INTEGER")' > $ if (type1*type2*type3*type4 .eq. 0)o6 > $   then say "%Invalid address -- non-numeric value" > $ else6 > $ range1 = ((octet1 .ge. 0) .and. (octet1 .le. 255))6 > $ range2 = ((octet2 .ge. 0) .and. (octet2 .le. 255))6 > $ range3 = ((octet3 .ge. 0) .and. (octet3 .le. 255))6 > $ range4 = ((octet4 .ge. 0) .and. (octet4 .le. 255))+ > $ if (range1*range2*range3*range4 .eq. 0)c1 > $   then say "%Invalid address -- out of range"- > $ else/ > $ say "%Address ''address' seems to be valid"+ > $ exit_status = %X10000001	 > $ endifr	 > $ endifp	 > $ endifs > $ exitt exit_statusw > ) > tardis_FTA7> @validate_ip 192.168.1.100.* > %Address 192.168.1.100 seems to be valid  > tardis_FTA7> show symb $status >    $STATUS == "%X10000001") > tardis_FTA7> @validate_ip 192.168.1.897 " > %Invalid address -- out of range  > tardis_FTA7> show symb $status >    $STATUS == "%X10000004" > < > There is more checking that could be done but I will leave > that up to you.  > 
 > Regards, > Dave   -- mJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   c   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:07:25 -0400t$ From: "Hein" <hein.nomail@hp.nomail> Subject: Re: Valid IP Addressn, Message-ID: <428be64b$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  ) <contracer11@gmail.com> wrote in message c= news:1116478073.328543.275080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...nG > I'm looking for a command procedure to verify if a specific Ip addresv > is valid.h
 > Example: >s > $ @ip 192.168.1.100 % >   192.168.1.100 -> valid Ip addressn > $ @ip 192.168.1.897i' >   192.168.1.897 -> invalid Ip addressd   $i = 0 $loop: $x = f$elem(i,".",p1)e
 $i = i + 1  $write sys$output "X=",x," I=",i) $if x.eqs."." .and. i.eq.5 then goto goodeI $if (f$type(x).eqs. "INTEGER" .and. x.gt.0 .and. x.lt.256) then goto loopy $o $bad:t $write sys$output "Bad"x $exite $good: $write sys$output "Good" $exitn   Hein.    ------------------------------    Date: 19 May 2005 10:14:32 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Valid IP Addressd3 Message-ID: <LGcPsRq0n+XS@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <1116478073.328543.275080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, contracer11@gmail.com writes:,G > I'm looking for a command procedure to verify if a specific Ip addres  > is valid.(
 > Example: >  > $ @ip 192.168.1.100c > & >    192.168.1.100 -> valid Ip address >  > $ @ip 192.168.1.897i > ( >    192.168.1.897 -> invalid Ip address >   ! /insert uncalled-for complication   G Note that 192.168.356 is a valid IP address equivalent to 192.168.1.100    as is 192.11010404 as is 3232235876  ; This last syntax is going to be difficult to handle in DCL.a   $ a = 3232235876 $ show sym a7   A = -1062731420   Hex = C0A80164  Octal = 30052000544.   /end insert5   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:50:52 -0400 - From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com>8 Subject: Re: Valid IP Address 7 Message-ID: <8660a3a1050519085056cbf276@mail.gmail.com>p  / On 5/19/05, Hein <hein.nomail@hp.nomail> wrote:a >=20* > <contracer11@gmail.com> wrote in message? > news:1116478073.328543.275080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...-I > > I'm looking for a command procedure to verify if a specific Ip addres.
 > > is valid.( > > Example: > >u > > $ @ip 192.168.1.100g' > >   192.168.1.100 -> valid Ip addressD > > $ @ip 192.168.1.897z) > >   192.168.1.897 -> invalid Ip addressa >=20
 > $i =3D 0 > $loop: > $x =3D f$elem(i,".",p1)o > $i =3D i + 1& > $write sys$output "X=3D",x," I=3D",i+ > $if x.eqs."." .and. i.eq.5 then goto good(K > $if (f$type(x).eqs. "INTEGER" .and. x.gt.0 .and. x.lt.256) then goto loop  > $  > $bad:h > $write sys$output "Bad"t > $exitI > $good: > $write sys$output "Good" > $exit  >=20 > Hein.c >=20 >=20 >=20   gt. 0 ?   	 Herr RMS:n  E I don't mean to be picky, but some of the secondary octets of a validi  IP address can be equal to zero.   Regards,   WWWebb --=20 C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence.iC All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request forw8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/c   ------------------------------   Date: 19 May 2005 16:07:59 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Valid IP Addressy+ Message-ID: <3f3ruvF5s412U1@individual.net>   3 In article <LGcPsRq0n+XS@eisner.encompasserve.org>,l! 	briggs@encompasserve.org writes:vc > In article <1116478073.328543.275080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, contracer11@gmail.com writes: H >> I'm looking for a command procedure to verify if a specific Ip addres >> is valid. >> Example:  >> a >> $ @ip 192.168.1.100 >> t' >>    192.168.1.100 -> valid Ip addressn >> X >> $ @ip 192.168.1.897 >> :) >>    192.168.1.897 -> invalid Ip addressi >> s > # > /insert uncalled-for complications > I > Note that 192.168.356 is a valid IP address equivalent to 192.168.1.100o >  > as is 192.11010404 > as is 3232235876 > = > This last syntax is going to be difficult to handle in DCL.a >  > $ a = 3232235876 > $ show sym a9 >   A = -1062731420   Hex = C0A80164  Octal = 30052000544l > 
 > /end insertp >   B Note also that 192.168.010.0311 is also valid and probably not the, address you think it is at first glance. :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.278 ************************rue 20-some years*C > ago when I wrote my last pu]9YZu@«DcP rԉN)Sι3*ʢ/z{rOpǫ,ct%j1nL%"PBQ%+771ucZ?Oum5^6:)`'0s+!ժ33I>i4_v؅sRqJR>e
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