1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 02 Nov 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 611       Contents:% Re: Advanced Server Performance Issue > Re: Finding out who is my Tape drive with Show devices command Re: how to break cluster Re: how to break cluster/ Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today  Re: Need PS Fan for AS200  Strange names in $ Admin Re: Strange names in $ Admin Re: Strange names in $ Admin7 Re: Were you an Interex member?  Now you're being sold! 7 Re: Were you an Interex member?  Now you're being sold! J What's matter with my VMS mail utility, Please help to resolve it, Thanks.P Re: What's matter with my VMS mail utility, Please help to resolve it, Thanks. T9 Re: Why I will vote against the Encompass Bylaws Revision 9 Re: Why I will vote against the Encompass Bylaws Revision 9 Re: Why I will vote against the Encompass Bylaws Revision 9 Re: Why I will vote against the Encompass Bylaws Revision  Re: Writing an OpenVMS ACP  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 1 Nov 2005 22:12:44 -0800 , From: "Cluster-Karl" <karl.rohwedder@gmx.de>. Subject: Re: Advanced Server Performance IssueB Message-ID: <1130911964.231896.68300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  
 Hi G=F6tz,  D pathworks seems to look for a valid license, but what normally V7.3A needs PWLMXXXCA07.03. 9 What did MCR SYS$SYSTEM:PWRK$LR_SHOW_USAGE.EXE gives you? C Is just browsing directories slow (maybe too many files for VMS) or  also plain filetransfer?  
 regards Kalle    ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 01:22:43 +0000 (UTC)- From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) G Subject: Re: Finding out who is my Tape drive with Show devices command . Message-ID: <dk94d2$js3$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  y Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch> writes in article <3snfp2Fpaa7lU1@individual.net> dated Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:14:09 +0100:  >pbritto wrote: J >> Nah it didn't work, it says no such device available. Is there any siteD >> with basic stuff on OpenVMS? for ppl who is completly clueless on
 >> OpenVMS  I www.openvms.org is a good site, look for a link to HP's documentation and  the "OpenVMS Users Manual".   B >As John says, this is a symptom that the hardware doesn't see or  >recognize the tape drive. > I >Is the tape built in to your Alpha Station 500, or is it in an external  6 >enclosure? Do you know what type of tape drive it is?  J If it's external and you powered it up after you booted the Alpha, use theI command "MC SYSMAN IO AUTO" to search for new devices.  Then do the "SHOW ? DEVICE MK" or "@FINDTAPE" again to see if it made a difference.   E The tape drives from that era were DATs, very prone to failure (in my E experience).  If the tape drive is internal, chances are it is broken  and has been disconnected.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:09:50 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>! Subject: Re: how to break cluster + Message-ID: <43682DFE.56FAC7A8@comcast.net>    abuaaaz@gmail.com wrote: >  > Hi > I am very new for this groupH > We have some OpenVMS cluster,my boss is asking me to break the cluster& > Can some one help me on this subject > Thanks  H Consider posting your query to comp.os.vms. I cross-posted this reply to include that group.   : To "break" the cluster, just disconnect something vital...  2 Humor aside, what is meant by "break the cluster"?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 00:53:28 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ! Subject: Re: how to break cluster , Message-ID: <4368542D.4DACE357@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: < > To "break" the cluster, just disconnect something vital...    A A big hammer can do the job. So would a huge magnet, jackhammers, E sandblaster directed at the cicuit boards,  large cutters to snip all ) cables coming in and out of the machine.      ) To take a node out of a cluster, you can:   
 MC SYSGEN  SYSGEN> USE CURRENT  SYSGEN> SET VAXCLUSTER = 0 SYSGEN> WRITE CURRENT     G Then reboot, and the machine will be out of the cluster. If you do that E to all machines in the cluster, the cluster will no longer be active. 4 But setting the parameters back on will re-enable it  C There are big caveats to this: If node B relies on access to drives F served by node A, then node B will fail because it will no longer have access to A's drives.   F If there are drives that are shared at the hardware level (shared SCSIC for instance), then there will not be any lock coordination between G drives and you will get corruption in files if both nodes try to access  the file at the same time.  H Also note that a node may rely on another node's system disk to boot. (aG satellite node), and when you take that node out of the cluster. If so, C you need to change the nodes's default boot device to its own local E disk, as well as ensuring that its onw local disk has its own copy of F VMS (and this entails copying all configuration files from that node'sG SYS$SPECIFIC tree from the server's disk to the node's own disk so when / it boots "alone", it can see all its own files.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:53:22 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <43681C12.B2CBAE0A@comcast.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <43616ACB.A938E100@comcast.net>, > >         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > Lurker wrote:  > >>< > >> A few years back some wiring in my house short-circuted< > >> and caught fire. It was put out quick enough so not too6 > >> much damage was done but the wiring itself needed > >> replacement of course.  > >>" > >> Since I couldn't do it myself > >  > > Why not? > I > Some people know their limitations. Not everyone is an electrician or a F > plumber or a carpenter.  Of course, some of us who haven't spent our; > entire lives in front of a keyboard are all of them.  :-)  >  > > % > >> I've pulled out  theYellow Pages = > >> which had something like a full page of electricians and 7 > >> companies who could and would do that in the area. < > >> A few phone calls resulted in some interesting results.9 > >> All union shops quoted exactly the same price - down > > >> to a cent. Not too surprising really, that's part of what > >> the unions do I guess.  > > I > > Yes: they watch out for each other. No one gets cheated, and everyone  > > has the same opportunity.  > " > Yeah, it's called price fixing.   E Well, yes and no. Yes, prices are "fixed" so that you know if someone A wants to try and charge more than "union scale", they're probably H scamming you, and if they offer to charge less, their credentials or the* quality of their work may be questionable.  ! > Just what one would expect from : > an organization that is totally against free enterprise.  H Well, actually, no they aren't. Unions are PRO free enterprise, but ANTIH slave-labor. A fair wage for a fair and honest effort - that's the goal.   > > ( > >> But, non-union professionals quotedA > >> anything from exactly the same as the union did (got the cue ; > >> there I guess) up to 50% lower. And yes, they were all  > >> certified and qualified.  > >  > > ...by whom?  > F > In any place that actually has building codes (rural america in most > cases does not)   G Well, yes and no. In some states, such codes are found at the county or  state level.  1 > electricians are required to be licensed by the  > municipalities    ...or the state and/or county...  2 > in which they wish to work and the the licensing> > body makes sure of qualifications and things like insurance.  + ...in so much and as far as funding allows.    > >  > >> Guess who got the job?  > > K > > Do you *REALLY* want to trust your safety to the lowest bidder? (think: 5 > > Space Shuttle Challenger, Hubble Telescope, etc.)  > J > Well, I thought the same thing about the lowest bidder.  I would tend toA > pick someone in the middle. (Except that I would do it myself!)   E I would tend to pick someone who offers the most common price and has G the best references and reputation. Sometimes you get more than you pay , for; but, be careful you don't get any less.   > > > > >> That means two things: One: if you accept the union offer) > >> you pay twice as much as you should.  > > H > > Depends. The union guys all have the same training. John from Bill'sH > > Electrical can come in and start a job, then go on family leave, andK > > Bill from John's Electrical and come in and finish it without having to L > > guess what John was thinking or having to redo the work you already paid > > for. > H > Hahahahahahahaha   Maybe in a perfect world.  I have known some really > incompetent union people.   D Likewise. No, the world is not perfect, but that's the intent of the! system, however flawed it may be.   C Incomptence is not limited to the union workers, of course - nor is  competence.    > > K > > If Bubba from Billy-Bob and Bubba, Inc., Electrical Contractor comes in L > > and can't finish for whatever reason (busted for dope, unplanned shotgunL > > wedding or whatever), will any of his work have to be redone by who ever > > gets the job to finish?  > 5 > Not too prejudiced in favor of the unions, are we?    A I wouldn't say "prejudiced". See my previous posts explaining the ) differences in our lives and experiences.    > Being a card carrying L > union member is no more a guarantee of competence than not being one means > your a hick moron.  , ...and, of course, the reverse is also true.   > >  > >> Two: some union? > >> worker has lost out on that job simply because a non-union < > >> one could beat him on the price (by a good margin too). > > K > > ...or he'll get the rework when it fails or doesn't meet code, at which L > > point you end up paying 50% *MORE* than if you'd done it right the first	 > > time.  >  > See comment above!!!   Ditto.   > > ( > > TANSTAAFL. You get what you pay for. >  > Microsoft Windows XP  B Anyone who wastes good money for Micro$lop deserves what they get.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:59:46 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <43681D92.A4E5205D@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Lurker wrote:  > > >  > [...] = > > > A few years back some wiring in my house short-circuted = > > > and caught fire. It was put out quick enough so not too 7 > > > much damage was done but the wiring itself needed  > > > replacement of course. > > > # > > > Since I couldn't do it myself  > >  > > Why not? > ? > Maybe because he doesn't have that all-important training you  > mentioned?  4 Depends. "Untrained" != "incompetent" (think: "OJT")  & > > > I've pulled out  theYellow Pages> > > > which had something like a full page of electricians and8 > > > companies who could and would do that in the area.= > > > A few phone calls resulted in some interesting results. : > > > All union shops quoted exactly the same price - down? > > > to a cent. Not too surprising really, that's part of what  > > > the unions do I guess. > > I > > Yes: they watch out for each other. No one gets cheated, and everyone  > > has the same opportunity.  > E > Depends on how you define "cheating". There's market price and then G > there's "fair price", which depends, of course, on your definition of G > "fair". And the union price is likely not the same as either of them.   D Well, actually, yes - it is *VERY* likely to reflect either or both.  D Remember: "market" price is what people are willing to pay (example:H gasoline). "Fair" price is often what the market would otherwise supportA lacking influences which effect the price artificially (examples: = gasoline, OpenVMS licenses, new Alpha machines, housing, ...)   ) > > > But, non-union professionals quoted B > > > anything from exactly the same as the union did (got the cue< > > > there I guess) up to 50% lower. And yes, they were all > > > certified and qualified. > >  > > ...by whom?  > >  > > > Guess who got the job? > > K > > Do you *REALLY* want to trust your safety to the lowest bidder? (think: 5 > > Space Shuttle Challenger, Hubble Telescope, etc.)  > A > The Hubble did pretty well after the correcting lens was added.   & It had to be fixed. The defense rests.  	 > And I'm F > not sure you can really blame the fault on the lowest bidder anyway.D > The Space Shuttle disaster was in large part management's (NASA's) > fault, was it not?  
 Debatable.  ( > > TANSTAAFL. You get what you pay for. > 
 > Or less.  C ...or, in rare cases, more. (Have you ever left a generous tip in a A restaurant or some other establishment? The defense rests again.)    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Nov 2005 02:29:29 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <3sqmk8Fpfi4nU2@individual.net>   + In article <43681D92.A4E5205D@comcast.net>, 5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > B >> The Hubble did pretty well after the correcting lens was added. > ( > It had to be fixed. The defense rests.  A While I can't provide any real evidence at this point, I would be < willing to bet the Hubble was manufactured by union workers.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 2 Nov 2005 02:26:18 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <3sqmeaFpfi4nU1@individual.net>   + In article <43681C12.B2CBAE0A@comcast.net>, 5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>  . >> In article <43616ACB.A938E100@comcast.net>,? >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >> > Lurker wrote: >> >> = >> >> A few years back some wiring in my house short-circuted = >> >> and caught fire. It was put out quick enough so not too 7 >> >> much damage was done but the wiring itself needed  >> >> replacement of course. >> >> # >> >> Since I couldn't do it myself  >> >
 >> > Why not?  >>  J >> Some people know their limitations. Not everyone is an electrician or aG >> plumber or a carpenter.  Of course, some of us who haven't spent our < >> entire lives in front of a keyboard are all of them.  :-) >>   >> >& >> >> I've pulled out  theYellow Pages> >> >> which had something like a full page of electricians and8 >> >> companies who could and would do that in the area.= >> >> A few phone calls resulted in some interesting results. : >> >> All union shops quoted exactly the same price - down? >> >> to a cent. Not too surprising really, that's part of what  >> >> the unions do I guess. >> >J >> > Yes: they watch out for each other. No one gets cheated, and everyone >> > has the same opportunity. >>  # >> Yeah, it's called price fixing.   > G > Well, yes and no. Yes, prices are "fixed" so that you know if someone C > wants to try and charge more than "union scale", they're probably J > scamming you, and if they offer to charge less, their credentials or the, > quality of their work may be questionable.  F Non-sequitor.  Charging more than a union worker doesn't mean scammingE and charging less does not mean low quality.  In any event, it is not H the union's place to set the one true price, that should be an agreementI between the worker and the payer.  If you think the offer is slave wages, G don't take the job but don't tell someone else that they're not allowed 9 to do the job because they are willing to do it for less.    > " >> Just what one would expect from; >> an organization that is totally against free enterprise.  > J > Well, actually, no they aren't. Unions are PRO free enterprise, but ANTIJ > slave-labor. A fair wage for a fair and honest effort - that's the goal.  F As above, that is a matter for the parties involved and not the union.   >  >> >) >> >> But, non-union professionals quoted B >> >> anything from exactly the same as the union did (got the cue< >> >> there I guess) up to 50% lower. And yes, they were all >> >> certified and qualified. >> > >> > ...by whom? >>  G >> In any place that actually has building codes (rural america in most  >> cases does not) > I > Well, yes and no. In some states, such codes are found at the county or  > state level.  C Not in many.  Most farmers are free to do pretty much all their own  work.    > 2 >> electricians are required to be licensed by the >> municipalities  > " > ...or the state and/or county...  B I have never been anywhere that those kinds of licenses went aboveD the municipality, but I'm willing to be shown otherwise.  There are,E of course, US Codes as well, but there is no inspector at the federal ! level to actually check them out.    > 3 >> in which they wish to work and the the licensing ? >> body makes sure of qualifications and things like insurance.  > - > ...in so much and as far as funding allows.   C But it is their job, and not some unions.  I voted them into office @ (well, not me all the time, but the majority), I never gave that power to any union.    >  >> > >> >> Guess who got the job? >> >L >> > Do you *REALLY* want to trust your safety to the lowest bidder? (think:6 >> > Space Shuttle Challenger, Hubble Telescope, etc.) >>  K >> Well, I thought the same thing about the lowest bidder.  I would tend to B >> pick someone in the middle. (Except that I would do it myself!) > G > I would tend to pick someone who offers the most common price and has I > the best references and reputation. Sometimes you get more than you pay . > for; but, be careful you don't get any less.  H And why would I assume that just because some jerk has the union seal ofI approval that he is any better than anyone else?  I have seen incompetent  union workers too.   >  >> >? >> >> That means two things: One: if you accept the union offer * >> >> you pay twice as much as you should. >> >I >> > Depends. The union guys all have the same training. John from Bill's I >> > Electrical can come in and start a job, then go on family leave, and L >> > Bill from John's Electrical and come in and finish it without having toM >> > guess what John was thinking or having to redo the work you already paid 	 >> > for.  >>  I >> Hahahahahahahaha   Maybe in a perfect world.  I have known some really  >> incompetent union people. > F > Likewise. No, the world is not perfect, but that's the intent of the# > system, however flawed it may be.  > E > Incomptence is not limited to the union workers, of course - nor is 
 > competence.   C So then, why is a non-union worker who is willing to do the job for  less a dubious choice?   >  >> >L >> > If Bubba from Billy-Bob and Bubba, Inc., Electrical Contractor comes inM >> > and can't finish for whatever reason (busted for dope, unplanned shotgun M >> > wedding or whatever), will any of his work have to be redone by who ever  >> > gets the job to finish? >>  6 >> Not too prejudiced in favor of the unions, are we?  > C > I wouldn't say "prejudiced". See my previous posts explaining the + > differences in our lives and experiences.   F Hmmmm.... Let's see.....  Non-union means junky, hick and incapable ofF finishing the job.  And you don't think you have any bias?  Of course,G you failed to cover the union worker refusing to finish the job because H his brothers down at the local factory went on strike and they are going out in support.    >  >> Being a card carryingM >> union member is no more a guarantee of competence than not being one means  >> your a hick moron.  > . > ...and, of course, the reverse is also true.  I See your comment above about why non-union workers won't finish the job.     >  >> > >> >> Two: some union @ >> >> worker has lost out on that job simply because a non-union= >> >> one could beat him on the price (by a good margin too).  >> >L >> > ...or he'll get the rework when it fails or doesn't meet code, at whichM >> > point you end up paying 50% *MORE* than if you'd done it right the first 
 >> > time. >>   >> See comment above!!!  >  > Ditto. >  >> >) >> > TANSTAAFL. You get what you pay for.  >>   >> Microsoft Windows XP  > D > Anyone who wastes good money for Micro$lop deserves what they get.  D That's not the point,  You said "You get what you pay for" and I wasH merely pointing out that that is not always the case.  So forcing peopleI to pay higher prices does not mean the union worker will do a better job.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 20:05:39 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <43681EF3.189CE01D@comcast.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <435AEB70.F8BBA6FF@comcast.net>, > >         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>0 > >> In article <435A7D52.B6EE59B1@comcast.net>,A > >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:  > >> >> 3 > >> >> In article <4351AE21.5BC5F080@comcast.net>, D > >> >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:	 > >> >> >  > >> >> > [snip]P > >> >> >  4. Do you have any detriments in your current day life as a result ofQ > >> >> > your parents or other fore-bearers having had the benefit of collective  > >> >> > bargaining?  > >> >>  > >> >> Yes. > >> > > >> > Do explain. > >>G > >> Quite simple.  If unions hadn't forced my father to start all over F > >> from the beginning so many time when I was young, I wouldn't haveG > >> grown when we were so poor and I would have had the opportunity to G > >> go to college which would have resulted in a much better lifestyle  > >> for me and my family. > > I > > My Dad supported a wife and three children with somewhat more than an L > > 8th grade education. My sister had rheumatic fever during her young daysJ > > when Dad was in the Army. My brother and I were late-life children. I,K > > the youngest, was a premie, and had several near-fatal conditions arise H > > over the course of my young life, the effects of a couple of which I > > still live with today. > > I > > I have only the "higher" education that I myself could afford (though I > > I'd be more likely to blame the Illinois State Scholarship Commission H > > for that than anything else, since they seem to (still, even to thisK > > day!) think that retired blue collar folks on a fixed income can afford 0 > > to send their late-life children to college. > > @ > > I think I do fairly well for someone without a sheepskin and > > double-digit IQ. > K > So did I, (except for the part about a double-digit IQ which I also doubt  > applies to you!!)   @ ...as do I; however, IQ tests are so intrinsically flawed that IE consistently measure in the mid to high 70's. I've learned relatively D recently that the basic cause (in my case) is tyically classified as; "Asperger's Syndrome" which is considered a form of autism.   6 > but I could have done better if my father could have" > afforded to send me to college.   F I *KNOW* I could have done better "if I knew then what I know now" and7 had been able to figure out how to afford it on my own.    > [snip] > > ; > > As always, your mileage may - and probably will - vary.  > >  >  > Undoubtedly.  E ...which is what makes life and social intercourse interesting, IMHO.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Nov 2005 18:38:18 -0800 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1130899098.662448.209400@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > AEF wrote: > >  > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > Lurker wrote:  > > > > 	 > > [...] ? > > > > A few years back some wiring in my house short-circuted ? > > > > and caught fire. It was put out quick enough so not too 9 > > > > much damage was done but the wiring itself needed  > > > > replacement of course. > > > > % > > > > Since I couldn't do it myself  > > >  > > > Why not? > > A > > Maybe because he doesn't have that all-important training you  > > mentioned? > 6 > Depends. "Untrained" != "incompetent" (think: "OJT")  F Maybe it's not within his range of talents? People who are talented atC one thing will generally be far less talented at most other things.   F Maybe he wasn't certified. Maybe he doesn't know how, could learn, butB doesn't have the time or finds it otherwise not worth the trouble.  A To take an extreme example, would you perform surgery on yourself $ (silly) or a loved one? I think not!  ( > > > > I've pulled out  theYellow Pages@ > > > > which had something like a full page of electricians and: > > > > companies who could and would do that in the area.? > > > > A few phone calls resulted in some interesting results. < > > > > All union shops quoted exactly the same price - downA > > > > to a cent. Not too surprising really, that's part of what  > > > > the unions do I guess. > > > K > > > Yes: they watch out for each other. No one gets cheated, and everyone  > > > has the same opportunity.  > > G > > Depends on how you define "cheating". There's market price and then I > > there's "fair price", which depends, of course, on your definition of I > > "fair". And the union price is likely not the same as either of them.  > F > Well, actually, yes - it is *VERY* likely to reflect either or both. > F > Remember: "market" price is what people are willing to pay (example:J > gasoline). "Fair" price is often what the market would otherwise supportC > lacking influences which effect the price artificially (examples: ? > gasoline, OpenVMS licenses, new Alpha machines, housing, ...)   G There's market price with a monopoly and market price with competition. > Then it depends on what you call "influences". Does collectiveD bargaining count as an "influence"? Does your fair definition assume monopoly on either side?   > + > > > > But, non-union professionals quoted D > > > > anything from exactly the same as the union did (got the cue> > > > > there I guess) up to 50% lower. And yes, they were all  > > > > certified and qualified. > > >  > > > ...by whom?  > > >  > > > > Guess who got the job? > > > M > > > Do you *REALLY* want to trust your safety to the lowest bidder? (think: 7 > > > Space Shuttle Challenger, Hubble Telescope, etc.)  > > C > > The Hubble did pretty well after the correcting lens was added.  > ( > It had to be fixed. The defense rests.  B No one was hurt by the problem with the Hubble mirror. And all theG other parts, which greatly outnumber the mirror, assumedly also made by B lowest bidders, worked fine. Yes, the mirror is one of or the mostE crucial part, but corrective optics made it perform very well indeed. - The Hubble was overall a spectacular success.    >  > > And I'm H > > not sure you can really blame the fault on the lowest bidder anyway.F > > The Space Shuttle disaster was in large part management's (NASA's) > > fault, was it not? >  > Debatable.  C Management shouldn't have allowed a launch in such cold conditions.   C But regardless, rockets are inherently dangerous. Putting people in G space is expensive, dangerous, and difficult. Many or most of the early A attempts at rockets either blew up on the launch pad or had to be D deliberately destroyed in flight as they veered way off course. So IF don't think this is a good example for your case. You just need better	 examples.   B Now, sure, hiring the lowest bidder tends to imply greater odds atG incompetence. But hiring the highest bidder tends to imply greater odds  of being ripped off.   > * > > > TANSTAAFL. You get what you pay for. > >  > > Or less. > E > ...or, in rare cases, more. (Have you ever left a generous tip in a C > restaurant or some other establishment? The defense rests again.)   E Yes, you can win the lottery, for example. (Well, some people do, but C of course, most people buying lottery tickets are just losing their B money.) But that is by far the exception. For every lottery winner$ there are probably millions of cons.  F I agree with you that workers need some protections. But unions aren'tD the only way. Maybe if unions were less powerful they could still doB the workers some good without all the bad things mentioned in thisB thread. My personal experiences with union people have mostly beenB negative. And that is hard to forget. I'm sure there are many good union workers out there.     OK, enough rambling!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 20:51:09 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: Need PS Fan for AS200+ Message-ID: <4368299D.C48AB34E@comcast.net>    jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote:  >  > AS200 tech guide > 9 > http://farrer.net/~rbf/files/docs/Alpha/ek-pcdsa-ti.pdf  > . > Page 150 (10-6) has the power supply pinouts   Super! Thanx much!   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Nov 2005 13:24:46 -0800 + From: "ts_hunter" <goldenboy_105@yahoo.com> ! Subject: Strange names in $ Admin C Message-ID: <1130880286.919273.110450@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   B When looking at machines in the domain on AS, I see strange names.B For example, when I do $ Admin and then > SHOW COMPUTER, the WinXPB machines come up with a description of Windows NT 5.1 Workstation.F On another issue that may be related, I am trying add a Windows ServerF 2003 machine to my AS domain.  AS is at V7.3-140A.  The Win2K3 machineC will NOT be a PDC or a BDC on the AS domain, I just want it to be a G member.  I am getter error messages when trying to join domain.  Ideas?    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:57:17 GMT  From: "Jim" <j.n@nospam.com>% Subject: Re: Strange names in $ Admin ; Message-ID: <1xR9f.8740$q%.4230@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>   7 "ts_hunter" <goldenboy_105@yahoo.com> wrote in message  = news:1130880286.919273.110450@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... D > When looking at machines in the domain on AS, I see strange names.D > For example, when I do $ Admin and then > SHOW COMPUTER, the WinXPD > machines come up with a description of Windows NT 5.1 Workstation.D Windows XP is a marketing name for Windows NT 5.1 (like OpenVMS for 	 example).  Jim    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:32:39 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> % Subject: Re: Strange names in $ Admin 2 Message-ID: <4367ED07.8070904@applied-synergy.com>   ts_hunter wrote:D > When looking at machines in the domain on AS, I see strange names.D > For example, when I do $ Admin and then > SHOW COMPUTER, the WinXPD > machines come up with a description of Windows NT 5.1 Workstation.H > On another issue that may be related, I am trying add a Windows ServerH > 2003 machine to my AS domain.  AS is at V7.3-140A.  The Win2K3 machineE > will NOT be a PDC or a BDC on the AS domain, I just want it to be a I > member.  I am getter error messages when trying to join domain.  Ideas?    WinXP IS Windows NT 5.1.   and    Win2K is Windows NT 5.0.   --  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 20:53:45 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>@ Subject: Re: Were you an Interex member?  Now you're being sold!+ Message-ID: <43682A39.19363B50@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote: < > > Hhmmm... Can the court be sued for violation of privacy? > 9 > Court is doing its job according to the bankrupcy laws.   $ ...but is not exempt from liability.  I > And whoever buys the membership list will have full rights to the list. J > Because Interex is being liquidated, any privacy protections Interex had >  are now totally moot.  A Not according to U.S. law. In most cases, covenants are deemed to  survive succession.   I > Had Interex sold the list while it was still viable, then Interex would J > have been able to ensure the buyer adheres to whatever privacy standards > Interex had.  > Now, that duty falls to the courts and the Justice Department.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 23:58:38 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> @ Subject: Re: Were you an Interex member?  Now you're being sold!, Message-ID: <43684756.99234DEA@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: K > > And whoever buys the membership list will have full rights to the list. L > > Because Interex is being liquidated, any privacy protections Interex had > >  are now totally moot. > C > Not according to U.S. law. In most cases, covenants are deemed to  > survive succession.     C This is not succession, it is liquidation. Bankrupcy law allows the G judge to cancel any contracts.  The only goal is to sell assets for the H most money to give back to creditors. They are not selling a user group.L they are selling office chairs, desk lamps, mailing lists, and file folders.  F Whoever buys the mailing list might have to abide by whatever law thatF protects any/all mailings lists, but the court *may* void any specificB rules that the bankrupted organisation had above and beyond normal privacy requirements.     @ > Now, that duty falls to the courts and the Justice Department.  G Nop. The court's only duty is to sell the assets of the defunct company F for the most amount of money and then distribute the proceeds "fairly"
 to creditors.   E Members could go to the court and mention that if the list is sold to C someone who does not withhold all of the Interex privacy rules, the D members will sue the new onwer of the list.  The court would then beD forced to mention this to any potential buyer of the list. Shoudl heC agree to buy the list, he would have full knowledged that should he E breach Interex rules, he might get legal trouble from the members and / can decide if the members were bluffing or not.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:01:46 +0800( From: "Fred Jiang" <r54123@motorola.com>S Subject: What's matter with my VMS mail utility, Please help to resolve it, Thanks. + Message-ID: <dk96qa$3v9$1@newshost.mot.com>    Hi, VMS Specialists,; My system is Open VMS 7.3-1 run on DS25 with firmware 6.9-2 5 I got a problem here while use vms mail utility here. ? Let's say I want to send mail to those on the mail list:aa.dis.  aa.dis  file contains: smtp%aaaa@yahoo.com" smtp%bbbb@yahoo.com"  " the file I want to send is aa.txt. aa.txt contains: abcdefg ) I use a command procedure :aa.com to run.  aa.com contains:& $mail/subject="test1" aa.txt "@aa.dis"& $mail/subject="test2" aa.txt "@aa.dis" $exit $ when I run the command procedure as: @aa.com L I find only the mail with subject "test1" can received. The second mail with! subject "test2" can not received. 6 If I modify the command procedure aa.com as following:& $mail/subject="test1" aa.txt "@aa.dis" $wait 00:01 & $mail/subject="test2" aa.txt "@aa.dis" $exit    @aa.com ( both mails  can be received as expected.H Is there any one can tell me what's the issue it is. How can resolve the problem? Thanks in advanced. 
 Best Regards,  Fred   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 23:38:06 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> Y Subject: Re: What's matter with my VMS mail utility, Please help to resolve it, Thanks. T , Message-ID: <43684287.DECEEB28@teksavvy.com>   Fred Jiang wrote:  > aa.dis  file contains: > smtp%aaaa@yahoo.com" > smtp%bbbb@yahoo.com"  F Is there a reason for the double quotes at the end of each recipient ?  8 > If I modify the command procedure aa.com as following:( > $mail/subject="test1" aa.txt "@aa.dis"
 > $wait 00:01 ( > $mail/subject="test2" aa.txt "@aa.dis"     Have you tried& $mail/subject="test1" aa.txt "@aa.dis" $!& $mail/subject="test2" aa.txt "@aa.dis"  E on VAX VMS 7.2, I am able to have 2 consecutive MAIL command with the * same syntax as yours and it seems to work.      B I would also suggest you $SET VERIFY before you invoke the commandB procedure and watch not only the actual output, but also any pause between the lines.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:25:12 -0500 & From: Thomas Wirt <twnews@kittles.com>B Subject: Re: Why I will vote against the Encompass Bylaws RevisionE Message-ID: <8598c$4367cf28$4367aba2$10185@msgid.meganewsservers.com>    JF Mezei wrote:    > "Clay M. Denton" wrote:  > W >>DECUS was never a worldwide organization - it was a worldwide affiliation of separate 4 >>organizations - subtle but significant difference. > H > It had a common worldwide name, logo, branding and there was a centralH > coordination of all worldwide chapters. There was a coordinatoer DECUSD > membership number scheme (digital 3 digit country code followed by > country specific numbering). > I > And DECUS chapters around the world shared common "raison d'tre" which B > was to support users of Digital Equipment Corporation equipment,I > software and services. And even if the USA wanted some isolation, there J > was still a lot of communications between other chapters. There was some) > sharing of membership software as well.    <snip> >   I > DECUS has a lot of heritage, history and respect.  It is a damned shame I > that it was actively destroyed just to please a few Compaq execs. DECUS B > should have  convinced those execs to let DECUS live as "DECUS".J > Instead, DECUS folder to their every requests, fearing loss of support. H > I saw what happened in Canada.  The ability to winde and dine with topB > Compaq brass seemed more important than saving the organisation.  E It is my understanding that we (DECUS) was "cease and desist"ed from  I using the DECUS name by Compaq.  Their was no caving by the board.  They  D took the heat in public, but they had no choice legally.  DEC owned G DECUS and the DECUS name.  When Compaq bought DEC they acquired DECUS.  F When Compaq said you may no more use it, we had no choice.  This info I came to me directly from a board member that I very much respect, at the  E time of the name change.  Before you accuse the board of caving, you  H should investigate enough to know that they did.  It is possible that I  was deceived, but I doubt it.   H Encompass is an independent entity, and can not be dictated to by HP or F anone else.  We can however be corersed by threats of funding removal ( (note that I said can be, not has been).   > H > Instead of focusing on providing services to members and showing valueE > to Compaq, those folks focused on promising lots of things to those B > Compaq execs and never focused on running the user group itself. >  <snip> > I > All of the DECUS branding was there, the domain names were ours, and it  > was all sqandered.    D The domains may have been registered to us, but that did no good if  DECUS was owned by Compaq. >  <snip>   > H > And under HP, the refusal to return to DECUS is even more stupid sinceJ > there is already a user group catering to HP's constituancy, and in manyD > countries, ITUG still exists to cater to the Tandem constituancy.  >  <snip> --     Thomas Wirt  Operations Manager, IS Dept. Kittle's Home Furnishings  Indianapolis, IN   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Nov 2005 13:02:01 -0800  From: jbecker@ui.urban.orgB Subject: Re: Why I will vote against the Encompass Bylaws RevisionC Message-ID: <1130878921.305733.213850@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Clay M. Denton wrote: ? > Related to this is the Encompass Board of Director elections.  > \ > I would personally (in other words - not with my director hat on) recommend voting against[ > any incumbents - esp. the current president.  We need to regain a user group - as opposed Z > to what Encompass has become - a trade show company.   We need people who still rememberS > who volunteers are - as opposed to just bringing in their buddies for "volunteer" V > assignments.  We also need an open board that does not require its members to sign a\ > non-disclosure agreement so that the board can't hardly talk among itself - much less with > the membership.  > 
 > Clay Denton   ' I have to disagree with Clay's remarks.   G As a sitting board member, it would be inappropriate for me to campaign D for or against particular candidates, but I'll go as far as saying IG disagree with Clay's recommendations about the incumbents. I'm proud of  the work the board has done.  G I attended HPTF, and I was part of the content selection process, so my E first-hand experience is that there was a lot more to this conference F than the trade show, and there was a lot more to Encompass involvementE than the trade show. ALL of the Encompass volunteers involved in this > conference served in the content selection process and variousA community activities -- content and community, which is what user D groups are about. Encompass was also a full partner on the core team that managed the conference.  F I don't want to diminish the value of the trade show, however. As manyF attendees have indicated -- verbally as well as through their presenceD -- the trade show is an important and useful part of the conference.D Encompass managed the trade show, and partnered with another HP user/ group, OVFI, in getting vendors to participate.   C Personally, I'm impressed that HP, Encompass, and OVFI were able to D work together to relocate and re-implement a technical conference on@ short notice (given that it was originally supposed to be in NewE Orleans in September). There were thousands of attendees, hundreds of G sessions and speakers, dozens of volunteers, and dozens of vendors, all C of whom had to be taken through the change of time and place. I was F also gratified to see long lines of interested people at the Encompass membership booth.   
 Jim Becker Encompass Board of Directors# (The Urban Institute is my day job)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:21:25 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> B Subject: Re: Why I will vote against the Encompass Bylaws Revision, Message-ID: <4367DC48.6C34D06E@teksavvy.com>   Thomas Wirt wrote:F > It is my understanding that we (DECUS) was "cease and desist"ed fromE > using the DECUS name by Compaq.  Their was no caving by the board.     YES MAN.  D With good leadership,  DECUS leaders in the USA could have convincedD Compaq to maintain the DECUS brand because it had great value.  WhenH DECUS USA accepted without serious challenge the request from Compaq, itC set a precedent that put pressure on other chapters to follow suit.   E Note however that since some chapters were allowed to continue to use G DECUS, it means that it wasn't such a "legal" issue. And note that ITUG - was able to continue to use its name as well.     G Secondly, even if Compaq forced DECUS to abandon its name, branding and B values because it wanted a "compaq" user group that could suopportD wintel crap, when HP bought Compaq's carcass, did the group formerlyE knowns as DECUS make pressure to HP to re-enable the use of the DECUS 0 name ? (since HP already had its own user group)    < > When Compaq said you may no more use it, we had no choice.  E Yes, you could have renamed it DEKUS and made Compaq's decisions look E terrible.  Point is that the leadership shouldn't have been scared of G Compaq, they shoudl have convinced Compaq to allow the continued use of  DECUS.    E Had the USA chapter gotten together with all other chapters and acted A together, that tiny Texas company without experience in worldwide A operations may have grown up and bit and gotten the message.  The ! internet already existed in 1998.   F > time of the name change.  Before you accuse the board of caving, youI > should investigate enough to know that they did.  It is possible that I  > was deceived, but I doubt it.   G In the case of the canadian chapter, the president agreed to drop DECUS C without even consudlting with the rest of the board,. He had a nice G executive breakfast in a hotel with a Compaq Canada president or VP and G after annonced the name change as a done deal without even having found 3 a name. No debate. No chance to try to save DECUS.    H Other chanpters were able to convince their local Compaq organisation to maintain DECUS.   I > Encompass is an independent entity, and can not be dictated to by HP or G > anone else.  We can however be corersed by threats of funding removal * > (note that I said can be, not has been).  I It has been.  And even under DECUS, funding cuts were a constant threath.   E > The domains may have been registered to us, but that did no good if  > DECUS was owned by Compaq.    F Members don't care about legalese. They care about being able to reachE their user group with an obvious name, not some variation of the name / because the real name is owned by someone else.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:10:45 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.comB Subject: Re: Why I will vote against the Encompass Bylaws RevisionQ Message-ID: <OF4DEB334C.D70DE618-ON852570AC.0078CA90-852570AC.0079C366@metso.com>   5 jbecker@ui.urban.org wrote on 11/01/2005 04:02:01 PM:    > Clay M. Denton wrote: A > > Related to this is the Encompass Board of Director elections.  > > E > > I would personally (in other words - not with my director hat on)  recommend voting againstJ > > any incumbents - esp. the current president.  We need to regain a user group - as opposedI > > to what Encompass has become - a trade show company.   We need people  who still rememberI > > who volunteers are - as opposed to just bringing in their buddies for  "volunteer" B > > assignments.  We also need an open board that does not require itsmembers to sign aF > > non-disclosure agreement so that the board can't hardly talk among > itself - much less with  > > the membership.  > >  > > Clay Denton  > ) > I have to disagree with Clay's remarks.  > I > As a sitting board member, it would be inappropriate for me to campaign F > for or against particular candidates, but I'll go as far as saying II > disagree with Clay's recommendations about the incumbents. I'm proud of  > the work the board has done. > I > I attended HPTF, and I was part of the content selection process, so my G > first-hand experience is that there was a lot more to this conference H > than the trade show, and there was a lot more to Encompass involvementG > than the trade show. ALL of the Encompass volunteers involved in this @ > conference served in the content selection process and variousC > community activities -- content and community, which is what user F > groups are about. Encompass was also a full partner on the core team > that managed the conference. > H > I don't want to diminish the value of the trade show, however. As manyH > attendees have indicated -- verbally as well as through their presenceF > -- the trade show is an important and useful part of the conference.F > Encompass managed the trade show, and partnered with another HP user1 > group, OVFI, in getting vendors to participate.  > E > Personally, I'm impressed that HP, Encompass, and OVFI were able to F > work together to relocate and re-implement a technical conference onB > short notice (given that it was originally supposed to be in NewG > Orleans in September). There were thousands of attendees, hundreds of I > sessions and speakers, dozens of volunteers, and dozens of vendors, all E > of whom had to be taken through the change of time and place. I was H > also gratified to see long lines of interested people at the Encompass > membership booth.  >  > Jim Becker > Encompass Board of Directors% > (The Urban Institute is my day job)  >    I, too, attended HPTF.$ I, too, attendet the Member Meeting.  F So Clay thinks the board needs new blood, and Jim abstains, but thinks3 the board did a good job.  That's not inconsistent.   D The point lost is that there *are* substantive changes in the bylawsC and the FAQ claims there are not, and there has been no feedback as E to how and when those changes came to be part of the up-or-down vote.   G So Dale's point so far stands.  The only rational courses of action are D to vote yes if you care not or to vote no if you are uneasy...unless? "Wright, Dena" <dwright@AMERIPATH.COM>  provides enlightenment.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:42:23 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> # Subject: Re: Writing an OpenVMS ACP 0 Message-ID: <11mfh9e2c9q249a@corp.supernews.com>   John Santos wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: >  >> Larry Kilgallen wrote: J >>> And it is certainly unavailable to organizations that will not install >>> unsupported software.  >>I >> 'Unavailable' is a rather strong word to use when an entity 'chooses'  # >> not to use a particular product.  >>A >> It's clear that Macro-32 is available on all 3 platforms, and   >> distributed with the OS.  >  > C > But not necessarily present on all three.  It can be tailored off G > on VAX, and appears to be optional on Alpha and Itanium.  (I actually 0 > checked the Upgrade and Installation Manuals.)  G Hi John.  Well, from that perspective, almost anything can be (custom)  G taylored off a VMS system.  I think 'present' was an offshoot from the  E original discussion.  From the perspective of available/unavailable,  H Macro-32 is on the VAX and Alpha distribution CDs, and I'd be surprised , if it wasn't on the itanic distribution CDs.  D > If you need a language that is absolutely guaranteed to be present8 > on all 3 architectures, I think you're stuck with DCL.  B Unless you (custom) taylor off some of the DCL functionality.  :-)  H >> I believe Bliss is available on all 3 platforms, but not distributed 0 >> with the OS, rather it's on the Freeware CDs. >>= >> Is Bliss also one of those unsupported products that some  J >> organizations will not use?  If so, then they should stop using 1/3 of  >> VMS.  >  > G > That 1/3 of VMS is supported by HP, even if the compiler itself isn't H > supported.  If you encounter a VMS bug that is actually due to a BlissH > compiler bug (how would you know?), HP would still be obligated to fixD > it, and send you a new executable.  They could never get away withJ > saying "That's due to a bug in the Bliss compiler, which is unsupported,I > so we won't fix it."  (Whether they fixed the compiler or worked around H > it in their source code or re-implemented it in another language would > be HP's choice.)  8 Yes, as long as bugs will be fixed, then it's supported.  E I'm not going to say that various concerns cause some software to be  F declared unwelcome doesn't have some validity.  However, unsupported, G and free, software covers a very wide range.  What I will say is to be  E inflexible with regard to 'not delivered with the OS' software isn't   being very bright.  F There are plenty of tools, applications, and such, that could be very G useful to users.  When capabilities are in place to check the code for  L potential problems, and to support the code, then concerns can be addressed.  - What's the chance that Bliss is full of bugs?   B On the other hand, C is supported, but implementing 'bugs' in the C application is rather easy in C.  Probably even easier in Macro-32.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.611 ************************