1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 07 Nov 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 622       Contents:: ?= Where did the Alpha layered products go on 8.2 CD dist?) Re: Announcing Vernon version 2.1 (shark) ) Re: Announcing Vernon version 2.1 (shark) * Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves# Re: Lock problems something strange # Re: Lock problems something strange   Re: Multinet issue or mail issue  Re: Multinet issue or mail issue  Re: Multinet issue or mail issue  Re: Multinet issue or mail issue  Re: Multinet issue or mail issue multiple access to sys$net ?  Re: multiple access to sys$net ?$ Newbie question about listing files.( Re: Newbie question about listing files.( Re: Newbie question about listing files. PLUG: txt2pdf 8.4 " Re: Printing to HP network printer) Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement ) Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement   Re: TCPDUMP like utility for LAT Re: VMS magtape handling* WTB Pathworks V6.0A  cd or 4.X on diskette/ ZFS from Sun, what's about a new FS for OpenVMS 3 Re: ZFS from Sun, what's about a new FS for OpenVMS 3 Re: ZFS from Sun, what's about a new FS for OpenVMS / ZFS from Sun, what's about a new FS for OpenVMS 3 Re: ZFS from Sun, what's about a new FS for OpenVMS   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:51:21 +0100 , From: "H. M. Aus" <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de>C Subject: ?= Where did the Alpha layered products go on 8.2 CD dist? 7 Message-ID: <aus-F3FC4C.15512107112005@news.cis.dfn.de>   D Where do I find the Alpha layered products go on the 8.2 CDROM upd ?  @ Neither the guide nor the v8.2 layered products CD contains the 
 compilers. :|    ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:47:56 +0000 (UTC)1 From: "Fernando M. Roxo da Motta" <roxo@roxo.org> 2 Subject: Re: Announcing Vernon version 2.1 (shark), Message-ID: <slrndmuq8r.ndq.roxo@alter.roxo>  3 On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:14:14 -0500, JF Mezei wrote:  > Galen wrote:  J >> P.P.S. Just don't sell him to HP. If they did buy him, he'd vanish into@ >> the ocean-sized vortex that seems to swallow [nearly] all VMS >> marketing.  :-) > H > Vernon is totally hobbyists/volunteer work. And was sourced outside ofF > Digital/Compaq/HP, so they can't tell us what to do without. Heck, I4 > don't think they still own the "VMS" trademark :-) > D > I see Vernon pretty much like Tux is for Linux. If HP wants to useJ > Vernon, they can do it, but it doesn't become their property since it isI > is "open sourced". Perhaps I should add some term and conditions to the E > page, to make sure HP doesn't kidnap Vernon and put him in a hidden I > bathtub. (Sue, tell your legal folks that I would hire Ace Ventura (Pet : > detective) should HP decide to kidnap Vernon ... :-) :-)    6   Perhaps you can distribute it under a license like :  %    The GNU Free Documentation License 0    http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#FDL   Or        Free Art License &    http://artlibre.org/licence/lal/en/    
 Or any of       The Approved Licenses&    http://www.opensource.org/licenses/  % Or a newcomer that is scoring a lot :         Creative Commons     http://creativecommons.org/       E   Hmmm.....   Dunno, guess I've just complicated things a lot.... ;))        Cheers       Roxo   --J ---------------- Non luctari, ludare -------------------+ WYSIWYG Editor ?@ Fernando M. Roxo da Motta <roxo@roxo.org>               |  VI !!E Except where explicitly stated I speak on my own behalf.| I see text, F       ( Usurio Linux registrado #39505 )               | I get text !   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:04:02 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 2 Subject: Re: Announcing Vernon version 2.1 (shark), Message-ID: <436F8901.573CA7C3@teksavvy.com>  " "Fernando M. Roxo da Motta" wrote:8 >   Perhaps you can distribute it under a license like : > ' >    The GNU Free Documentation License 2 >    http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#FDL >    Free Art License ( >    http://artlibre.org/licence/lal/en/ >    The Approved Licenses( >    http://www.opensource.org/licenses/ >    Creative Commons   >    http://creativecommons.org/    " Thanks, I will keep those in mind.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:46:53 GMT $ From: measekite <inkystinky@oem.com>3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves < Message-ID: <1yLbf.9492$BZ5.3032@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>   Roy G wrote:  8 >"Larry Gold" <larry.gold@ntlworld.com> wrote in message1 >news:Drqbf.3200$c66.2921@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...  >    >  >>that is disgusting, >>so cartridges you have ink in you cant use >> >> >>-- >>Larry Gold >>Arsenal For Life$ >>arsenal49unbeaten03-04@hotmail.com@ >>"Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote in message9 >>news:43494643$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...  >>     >>
 >>>Gentlemen,  >>> C >>>I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both K >>>incompetant and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses.  >>> - >>>I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device.  >>> K >>>Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5  >>>read between 23-28%I >>>I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink.  >>> J >>>After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink. >>> $ >>>I decided to print the test page. >>>  >>>Failure - and worse.  >>> I >>>1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message. < >>>This will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!!	 >>>        >>> F IT IS TELLING YOU THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE HIGH QUALITY EPSON OEM INK AND - MAY BE SUBJECTING THE PRINTER TO A HEAD CLOG.   3 >>>2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0% K >>>3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not yet  >>>having printed 1 character  >>> K >>>Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot print   >>>and I am REALLY pissed off.   >>> , IT IS BETTER TO BE PISSED OFF THAN PISSED ON  ' >>>Check how much 6 cartridges (even of A >>>alternative branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise. 	 >>>        >>> / THAT IS CORRECT.  ALL BRANDED INK IS OVERPRICED   K >>>The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me.  It   >>>is both amoral and illegal.   >>> H THEY ARE IN BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY NOT TO HELP YOU BUY GENERICE PRINTER 
 CLOGGING INK.   , >>>There is no technical reason for what hasE >>>happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson : >>>cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right. >>> K >>>I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give up 	 >>>        >>> " DON'T USE AN INK JET.  BUY A LASER   >? >    > F >>>Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally apprpriate ? >>> " >>>Where do I get my money back ?? >>>  >>>Dr. Dweeb >>>  >>> 	 >>>        >>> 
 >Hi there. > K >It could be that the 3rd party Cartridge was faulty, and the printer could  >not read the chip.  > L >In any case, it is easy to get a hardware, or software, chip resetter, that1 >will enable you to continue using the Col Carts.  > L >I agree that if Epson Sell you a printer, you are perfectly entitled to useK >it with whatever ink and paper you choose, which is what you expected when L >you bought it.  If they have programmed it to do otherwise, they must be in >breach of contract. > K >However I would rather disagree with your claim that an RX500 is a top end D >machine.  It uses the same print engine as the R200 which is fairly
 >inexpensive.  >  >Roy G >  >  >  >  >    >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:08:10 +0100 From: "Eric" <rien@rien.fr> , Subject: Re: Lock problems something strange2 Message-ID: <dknn4b$fkk1@news.rd.francetelecom.fr>  ? "Alan Greig" <greigaln@netscape.net> a crit dans le message de 7 news:T_Laf.17541$7m4.14866@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...    > J > It is an undocumented command which has been in VMS for ever. Comes fromI > TOPS-10 (and TOPS-20 with extended EXECs). You won't find it in HELP so  > just try it.  6 i try ;-), but the word FILE est FILE not "a file" ;-/   > Alan Greig   Thanks.  Eric   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:09:59 +0100 From: "Eric" <rien@rien.fr> , Subject: Re: Lock problems something strange2 Message-ID: <dknn7o$fjg2@news.rd.francetelecom.fr>  J "Michael Austin" <maustinat@firstdbasourcenot.com> a crit dans le message8 de news:c5Xaf.9873$q%.7060@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > the EXACT command is:  > $SET WATCH/CLASS=MAJOR FILE  >  > where class= can be 5 > /CLASS=MAJOR      !!minimal output - open/read file I > /CLASS=ATTRIBUTE  !!more output    - what attribs are you using to read 5 > /CLASS=ALL !!you better have a very large buffer...   > /CLASS=NONE     !!turn it off.F > the word "FILE" is not a replacement value - it is the keyword FILE.A > I think there are others but cannot recall what they were... :)   " you 're terribly right.. !!! ;-)))   > Michael Austin   Thanks Eric   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:01:54 +0000 (UTC)< From: gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens (Christoph Gartmann)) Subject: Re: Multinet issue or mail issue ) Message-ID: <dkn562$dfu$1@news.BelWue.DE>   V In article <dkmdrj$edf$1@newshost.mot.com>, "Fred Jiang" <r54123@motorola.com> writes:  F >I have a vms system, And I encounter a problem while send a mail with >different lines: / >I have a command procedure a.com with content: , >$mail/sub="aaa" aa.txt smtp%"aaa@yahoo.com", >$mail/sub="bbb" aa.txt smtp%"aaa@yahoo.com" >$exit! >And I run the command procedure:  >$@a.comC >Then only the mail with subject "aaa" can recieved. The second one 
 >disappeared. = >Is there anyone know the reason of the issue. Please advise.   2 Try to enclose the address in double quotes, e.g.:3   $ MAIL/SUBJ="aaa" aa.txt "smtp%""aaa@yahoo.com"""  Does this work?    Regards,    Christoph Gartmann    --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:19:45 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)) Subject: Re: Multinet issue or mail issue 6 Message-ID: <00A4C6C1.CD6FEDC3@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  V In article <dkmdrj$edf$1@newshost.mot.com>, "Fred Jiang" <r54123@motorola.com> writes: >Hi,F >I have a vms system, And I encounter a problem while send a mail with >different lines: / >I have a command procedure a.com with content: , >$mail/sub="aaa" aa.txt smtp%"aaa@yahoo.com", >$mail/sub="bbb" aa.txt smtp%"aaa@yahoo.com" >$exit! >And I run the command procedure:  >$@a.comC >Then only the mail with subject "aaa" can recieved. The second one 
 >disappeared. = >Is there anyone know the reason of the issue. Please advise.    Well, first off, do    $ show sym mail   L and see if you have any non-default qualifiers defined.  (You can defeat the0 symbol definition in your command procedure with   $ MAILX   
 instead of   $ MAIL     Next, do   $ SET VERIFY $ @A  G and watch what actually happens when the procedure exits.  If your MAIL K is defined so that it defaults to EDIT on SEND, it might be choking on your J command procedure, sending the message with an error condition, then dyingG before it tries to execute the second $MAIL.  Looking and seeing what's  happening will help.   You might want to look at   
 $ HELP SET ON   ? to learn about trapping error conditions in command procedures.      -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:17:28 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: Re: Multinet issue or mail issue , Message-ID: <436F29B5.253396CB@teksavvy.com>   Fred Jiang wrote:  >  > Hi, G > I have a vms system, And I encounter a problem while send a mail with  > different lines:0 > I have a command procedure a.com with content:- > $mail/sub="aaa" aa.txt smtp%"aaa@yahoo.com" - > $mail/sub="bbb" aa.txt smtp%"aaa@yahoo.com"      try:/ $mail/sub="aaa" aa.txt "smtp%""aaa@yahoo.com"""   - With TCPIP Services, your syntax works fine.      F You may wish to add the following lines before the first MAIL command:  2 $SET MESSAGE/FACILITY/IDENTIFICATION/SEVERITY/TEXT	 $SET NOON  $SHOW SYMBOL MAIL  $!  F The first one makes sure that any error message is actually displayed.D The second one makes sure that if there is an error on any line, the command procedure continues.F The 3rd one will show if mail has been redefined to do something else.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 06:25:48 -0500 ' From: Rich Whalen <whalenr@process.com> ) Subject: Re: Multinet issue or mail issue 8 Message-ID: <6beum1pbiakudbgvu6f7256c1voourh9o3@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:21:37 +0800, "Fred Jiang" <r54123@motorola.com>  wrote:   >Hi,F >I have a vms system, And I encounter a problem while send a mail with >different lines: / >I have a command procedure a.com with content: , >$mail/sub="aaa" aa.txt smtp%"aaa@yahoo.com", >$mail/sub="bbb" aa.txt smtp%"aaa@yahoo.com" >$exit! >And I run the command procedure:  >$@a.comC >Then only the mail with subject "aaa" can recieved. The second one 
 >disappeared. = >Is there anyone know the reason of the issue. Please advise.  >Thanks in advance.  >Fred  >   ? You don't say what version of MultiNet you are running, or what  patches have been applied.  > If you are running V4.4 or earlier is SMTP-020_A044 (or later) applied?   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 07:48:46 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: Re: Multinet issue or mail issue 3 Message-ID: <Kw3f3lxcoF7w@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <dkmdrj$edf$1@newshost.mot.com>, "Fred Jiang" <r54123@motorola.com> writes: > Hi, G > I have a vms system, And I encounter a problem while send a mail with  > different lines:0 > I have a command procedure a.com with content:- > $mail/sub="aaa" aa.txt smtp%"aaa@yahoo.com" - > $mail/sub="bbb" aa.txt smtp%"aaa@yahoo.com"  > $exit " > And I run the command procedure:	 > $@a.com D > Then only the mail with subject "aaa" can recieved. The second one > disappeared.> > Is there anyone know the reason of the issue. Please advise. > Thanks in advance. > Fred  0    Is there an error message?  What does it say?   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 05:23:13 -0800  From: pierre.bru@gmail.com% Subject: multiple access to sys$net ? B Message-ID: <1131369792.972097.59260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   hi,    in a remote procedure call via     OPEN REMNODE::"0=3DREMPROC"    I do in DCL:     $ OPEN/READ/WRITE SYS$NET   ( and I can read and write on the NET file  C but if I "$ DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT SYS$NET" or "$ COPY FILE.TXT SYS$NET"    I get the error:  J %DCL-E-OPENOUT, error opening NODE::"0=3DUSERNAME/=FF=FFREMPROC" as outputA -RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for 	 operation   @ I had in mind that SYS$NET could be opened twice if done by RMS.   where am I wrong ?   TIA, Pierre.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:02:21 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: Re: multiple access to sys$net ? , Message-ID: <436F889D.24B361C3@teksavvy.com>   pierre.bru@gmail.com wrote:  >   $ OPEN/READ/WRITE SYS$NET  > * > and I can read and write on the NET file > E > but if I "$ DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT SYS$NET" or "$ COPY FILE.TXT SYS$NET"     5 Have you tried open/read/write/share=write  instead ?    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:29:53 +00001 From: andyg <andyg.1y4y8z@nomx.sysadminforum.com> - Subject: Newbie question about listing files. 1 Message-ID: <andyg.1y4y8z@nomx.sysadminforum.com>   F Is there a way of searching directories for a specific sized files ie. greater than say 1000 blocks? ) I am trying to search for any big files.  D what I would like to do is *DIR "disk":[000000...]*.*;*/SIZE=>1000.*     --   andyg " posted via http://sysdminforum.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:44:30 -0000* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>1 Subject: Re: Newbie question about listing files. 2 Message-ID: <dko3pu$8ve$1@blackmamba.itd.rl.ac.uk>  > "andyg" <andyg.1y4y8z@nomx.sysadminforum.com> wrote in message+ news:andyg.1y4y8z@nomx.sysadminforum.com...   F > what I would like to do is *DIR "disk":[000000...]*.*;*/SIZE=>1000.*   DIR /SELECT=SIZE=MIN=1000    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:14:35 +0100 & From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch>1 Subject: Re: Newbie question about listing files. + Message-ID: <3t9jscFrhhlrU1@individual.net>    andyg wrote:H > Is there a way of searching directories for a specific sized files ie. > greater than say 1000 blocks? + > I am trying to search for any big files.  F > what I would like to do is *DIR "disk":[000000...]*.*;*/SIZE=>1000.* >  >   + $ DIR /SELECT=(SIZE=MINIMUM=1001) /SIZE=ALL   C The minimum size here is the number of blocks allocated, _not_ the  I number of blocks used; To avoid confusion, use /SIZE=ALL to display both   used and allocated blocks.   For example:  % $ dir/sel=(size=min=9)/size=all login    Directory MYDISK:[ME]    LOGIN.COM;7                2/9  : Please read the contents of HELP DIR for more information.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 07:38:48 -0800  From: mail@sanface.com Subject: PLUG: txt2pdf 8.4C Message-ID: <1131377928.654822.243290@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   . We would like to announce txt2pdf 8.4 version.# http://www.sanface.com/txt2pdf.html E txt2pdf is shareware; it is a very flexible and powerful Perl5 script B that converts text files to PDF format files, so you can use it in> every operating systems supported by Perl5, including OpenVMS.( Remember to read "txt2pdf on OpenVMS" at# http://www.sanface.com/openvms.html ; It's simple to design background like invoices, orders etc. ) Here nice examples made using txt2pdf PRO - http://www.sanface.com/pdf/Purchase_Order.pdf ) http://www.sanface.com/pdf/oldinvoice.pdf $ http://www.sanface.com/pdf/hfmus.pdf) http://www.sanface.com/pdf/heraldbill.pdf @ If you prefer we also distribute executables for Windows, Linux,E Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, and Mac OS X. Inside the Windows version you can  find a VB GUI: Visual txt2pdf.   What's new in this versionE We have added ID: (optional, but strongly recommended from PDF 1.1) a B file identifier for the file. Although this entry is optional, itsF absence might prevent the file from functioning in some workflows thatE depend on files being uniquely identified. If yu don't want to use ID  you can use noid : 1  4 Read Independent Liquor Group PDF Invoice Project at' http://www.sanface.com/ilg-project.html    Test txt2pdf 8.4! 6 You can find it at http://www.sanface.com/txt2pdf.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:58:53 -0500 / From: Paul Anderson <paulranderson@charter.net> + Subject: Re: Printing to HP network printer : Message-ID: <071120050858539255%paulranderson@charter.net>  7 In article <436ddb1a$1@duster.adelaide.on.net>, Gremlin  <not-here@all.mate> wrote:   > Hi All > K > My mind has become fuzzy over the years - was there ever a way for a VMS  M > print queue to print to, for example, an HP printer that had an IP network  H > card?  Without installing third party software?  OpenVMS7.3-2, TCP/IP M > patched etc - don't remember having created queues on remote IP devices to   > do this......   E And DECprint Supervisor (DCPS) does this well, too, although it's not " part of the base operating system.   Paul   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:22:13 +02007 From: "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> 2 Subject: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement* Message-ID: <436f2ad7@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  	 Hi folks,   3 We are toying with the idea of modifying VMS BACKUP 6 to support tape striping and tape shadowing, what does it mean?   Tape shadowing:  ----------------------  3 The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape  saveset concurrently.   
 Tape striping  ------------------------  6 Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped3 up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives.   7 Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the # strip to be loaded into the drives.    What do you think?  8 I'm looking for feedback like yes this is a good idea or5 no it is a waste of time. Please do not ask questions 1 about implementation as we are in a VERY!!! early 8 stage of planning and obviously this is not a commitment that we'll actually do it....    Thank you for your feedback.  	 Guy Peleg  OpenVMS engineering    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:46:42 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement+ Message-ID: <436F308D.1925BA7@teksavvy.com>    Guy Peleg wrote:5 > The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape  > saveset concurrently.   F When you need a backup for this site as well as off-site storage, thisH functionality would be great since with one command, you get 2 identical& tapes, one which can be sent off-site.  F Question: would it be possible to have one output to tape and a second output to disk save set ?   8 > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped5 > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives.   D If I understand properly, you'd backup the first half of the disk onB tape 1 and second half of disk on tape 2 and do this concurently ?  H There would be issues with truly ensuring that no file is updated duringH the process, unless you can garantee that one file will always be backed  up to the same tape in one shot.   Cosnider this scenario: , File has 100 blocks right in middle of disk.  K Backup 2 will start its task by writing blocks 50-100 to tape 2 right away. G Some process then adds records to the file, extending it to 125 blocks. F Backup 1 eventually gets to that file towards the end of its task, and, backsup the file header and first 50 blocks.  H When you restore it, the file headed indicates it is 125 blocks. You getK file header and 50 blocks from tape1, but will only see 50 blocks in tape2.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 04:55:18 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement3 Message-ID: <za0E5CzZIwhJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <436f2ad7@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> writes:   > Tape shadowing:  > ---------------------- > 5 > The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape  > saveset concurrently.   < This would be highly useful, although the same goal might be? achieved for many sites by a supported BACKUP/COPY.  The latter = approach has the advantage of susceptibility to being applies  as an afterthought.    > Tape striping  > ------------------------ > 8 > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped5 > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives.  > 9 > Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the % > strip to be loaded into the drives.   ? This would seem extremely hard to implement so that it would be = compatible with the first one, since different output streams = would hit EOT at different times due to vagaries in media and = drives.  Even if you could write it successfully, the results > would not be interchangeable, since one could not use tape B17< with tape A16 on the restore, and thus you would need unique= names for the NxM tapes leading to user confusion even if the  software were flawless.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:51:10 +02007 From: "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement* Message-ID: <436f3fb3@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message% news:436F308D.1925BA7@teksavvy.com...  > Guy Peleg wrote:7 > > The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape  > > saveset concurrently.  > H > When you need a backup for this site as well as off-site storage, thisJ > functionality would be great since with one command, you get 2 identical( > tapes, one which can be sent off-site. > H > Question: would it be possible to have one output to tape and a second > output to disk save set ?   3 I said no questions about the implementation....;-)   ( Do not know yet, but should be possible. > : > > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped7 > > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives.  > F > If I understand properly, you'd backup the first half of the disk onD > tape 1 and second half of disk on tape 2 and do this concurently ?  @ I do not know yet but I envision dividing the work different, in; the case of two tapes, odd VBNs can go to one tape and even D to the other, again we are in the very early stage of thinking aboutA it. The goal is to speed up the amount of time it takes to backup  the data by parallelism...   > J > There would be issues with truly ensuring that no file is updated duringJ > the process, unless you can garantee that one file will always be backed" > up to the same tape in one shot. >  > Cosnider this scenario: . > File has 100 blocks right in middle of disk. > G > Backup 2 will start its task by writing blocks 50-100 to tape 2 right  away. I > Some process then adds records to the file, extending it to 125 blocks. H > Backup 1 eventually gets to that file towards the end of its task, and. > backsup the file header and first 50 blocks. > J > When you restore it, the file headed indicates it is 125 blocks. You getF > file header and 50 blocks from tape1, but will only see 50 blocks in tape2.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:52:30 +02007 From: "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement* Message-ID: <436f4003@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:za0E5CzZIwhJ@eisner.encompasserve.org... 8 > In article <436f2ad7@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "Guy Peleg"- <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> writes:  >  > > Tape shadowing:  > > ---------------------- > > 7 > > The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape  > > saveset concurrently.  > > > This would be highly useful, although the same goal might beA > achieved for many sites by a supported BACKUP/COPY.  The latter ? > approach has the advantage of susceptibility to being applies  > as an afterthought.  >  > > Tape striping  > > ------------------------ > > : > > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped7 > > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives.  > > ; > > Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the ' > > strip to be loaded into the drives.  > A > This would seem extremely hard to implement so that it would be ? > compatible with the first one, since different output streams   ( Good....it means job security for me ;-)  ? > would hit EOT at different times due to vagaries in media and ? > drives.  Even if you could write it successfully, the results @ > would not be interchangeable, since one could not use tape B17> > with tape A16 on the restore, and thus you would need unique? > names for the NxM tapes leading to user confusion even if the  > software were flawless.   @ I assume that we'll have strict set of rules for striping, maybe> all tapes must be identical? not sure yet as I said very early stages of thinking...    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 04:11:37 -0800 & From: "Bart Zorn" <bartzorn@yahoo.com>6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancementB Message-ID: <1131365497.579235.12840@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  F I seem to remember that RMU/BACKUP already has the option of using two< tapes in a striping pair? Can something be learned from that implementation?   D Saveset Manager has the possibility to make a copy of a saveset from> one tape to another, this looks like what Larry indicated with BACKUP/COPY.   Regards,  	 Bart Zorn    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:24:22 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement, Message-ID: <436F476A.F31010D8@teksavvy.com>   Guy Peleg wrote:B > I assume that we'll have strict set of rules for striping, maybe@ > all tapes must be identical? not sure yet as I said very early > stages of thinking...   0 I know we're not allowed to ask questions but...  D When VMS mounts a tape, does it know how much capacity a tape device actually has ?O If not, it would be hard for it to start to know how to split the backup tasks.   G Perhaps the user would need to provide some capacity for each device in  the backup command.     ? Lets say I have a TK50 and a TK70 on my all mighty microvax II:   I BACKUP/IMAGE/NOALIAS mydisk:   mua0:/capacity=95meg,mub0:/capacity=170meg   E This way, backup would know how to split the workload between the two # drives and where to split the disk.   D And one would also assume that backup would be able to ask for a newG tape when one of the tape devices runs out of tape. (this takes care of H a tape being a bit shorter than antitipated, as well as situations whereM totakl capacity of the 2 drives is still less than the data to be backed up).       E Serriously though, where is backup technology really going ?  Is tape E really sticking around ? or will flash eventually take over ? Or will ) disk become the prevalent backup medium ?   G the shadowing project has immediate and long term value. The need for 2 N copies of a backup will always be there, no matter what backup medium is used.  H But the striping idea may become moot as backup medium change and backup! becomes a really quick operation.   G One thing that would REALLY be neat though is if a new output parameter  were added.   G instead of having /SAVE, if we could have /ZIP it would be really nice.   * BACKUP/IMAGE dua0:  mua0:mysaveset.zip/ZIP  G Not only would this compress the output data, but it would also make it 9 readable on any other platform which has a UNZIP command.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:20:17 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement6 Message-ID: <00A4C6DB.0586D2A6@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  d In article <436f2ad7@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> writes:
 >Hi folks, > 4 >We are toying with the idea of modifying VMS BACKUP7 >to support tape striping and tape shadowing, what does 	 >it mean?  >  >Tape shadowing: >----------------------  > 4 >The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape >saveset concurrently. >  >Tape striping >------------------------  > 7 >Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped 4 >up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives. > 8 >Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the$ >strip to be loaded into the drives. >  >What do you think?  > 9 >I'm looking for feedback like yes this is a good idea or 6 >no it is a waste of time. Please do not ask questions2 >about implementation as we are in a VERY!!! early9 >stage of planning and obviously this is not a commitment  >that we'll actually do it.... >  >Thank you for your feedback.   I Seems like a good idea to me.  (I'm more interested in cutting my backup  M window by striping to two drives simultaneously than I am in tape shadowing,  / but I don't see shadowing causing me any harm.)    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 06:57:41 -0600 % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org> 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement5 Message-ID: <slrndmujq5.s0c.usenet@zappy.catbert.org>   [ In article <436F476A.F31010D8@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:  > G > Serriously though, where is backup technology really going ?  Is tape G > really sticking around ? or will flash eventually take over ? Or will + > disk become the prevalent backup medium ?   E Warning: mostly non-VMS related -- if this is bothersome, please skip 
 this post.  I Tape's still here. They're no longer your father's 9 track reel tapes. :)   F Modern tape libraries are pretty nice; 80 MB/sec (compressed) and 900+G GB (compressed) with even faster and higher capacity tape drives on the  horizon.  ? Yes, the vendors these days are aggressively pushing disk-based B solutions. They do have their place, but much of the incentive forB vendors in pushing it has been for generating new revenue. NaturalE response to break out of the slump in IT purchases due to the dot.com . bust and shaky economy earlier in this decade.  E Disk-based backups make more sense in circumstances where you need to F get a copy of data off production drives fast as possible, then streamF to slower media. Or where you do large amounts of restores involving aF lot of random access. Or where the allowable time to restore is fairly6 small due to internal service level agreements (SLAs).  H Modern disks for backups are pretty decent; very good random access timeE (as can be expected), more shock-proof (due to 2.5" laptop drive form F factor) than conventional desktop drives, hot plug support, small form factor, and so forth.   G I understand this is popular in financial markets and healthcare due to F demanding availability requirements, but often used as an intermediateB staging area with an additional backup to tape as extra insurance.  H They also make sense in a number of other circumstances. Yet, tape isn'tF quite dead yet, and not looking like it's going to be crippled or deadE in five or ten years. LTO/AIT/etc appears to have roadmaps that looks  pretty vibrant and realistic.   C Haven't really looked at flash stuff; that would probably be pretty F nice, but I think it's currently too costly for price/gigabyte. Even aH small backup setup today will be storing terabytes of data. So price hasB to be much better to make it more realistic for the average place.  G My 400 GB tapes costs about US 18.4 cents per gigabyte -- equivalent to H USD $73 for a 400 GB hard drive. That's pretty good. (But, yes, the tape' drives costs USD $12,000-$19,000 each.)   E I'm afraid all of the above stuff has no direct relation to VMS, so I D will just say that the first VMS-based tape drive I ever owned was aE TK50 hooked up to my VAXstation 3100/GPX M38 that I bought years ago. E Included were several 'genuine DEC' VMS 5.4 tapes. Ah, fond memories.   F First tapes I ever owned and used on a VMS system was the 9-track reelC tapes and also some fond memories of doing MOUNT/ALLOC MUA0 ... and  BACKUP operations.  G At work today, we still use technology in the same form factor as these > TK50s but with significantly more advanced 'guts' (compressionF algorithms, more precise head positioning, better chemical properties, and so forth).   -Dan   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:19:07 -0600 (CST)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)2 Subject: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement2 Message-ID: <05110707190726_202AAB19@antinode.org>  7 From: "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com>    > Tape shadowing:       Nice.   > Tape striping  > ------------------------ > 8 > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped5 > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives.  > 9 > Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the % > strip to be loaded into the drives.   E    If the tape set is made with N drives, can it be restored with N-1 ; (or fewer) drives?  Sounds like a reliability risk, if not.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:38:51 +0100 3 From: Michael Unger <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com> 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement+ Message-ID: <3t97ciFqsuekU1@individual.net>   ( On 2005-11-07 13:57, "Dan Foster" wrote:   > [...]  > E > Haven't really looked at flash stuff; that would probably be pretty H > nice, but I think it's currently too costly for price/gigabyte. Even aJ > small backup setup today will be storing terabytes of data. So price hasD > to be much better to make it more realistic for the average place. >  > [...]   G Aside from the price issues speed is an issue too. Some months ago I've C seen some numbers on the SanDisk web site (don't remember the URL):   ) - 3...4 MB/s for "standard" flash memory, . - 8...10 MB/s for "professional" flash memory,3 - 15...20 MB/s for "ultra high speed" flash memory.    Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. 5 My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:43:26 +0100( From: "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de>6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement3 Message-ID: <000801c5e3b2$01a0dad0$994614ac@wat153>    Hello,H yes it is a good idea. Often you need more then one backup (to store theF backups in different stores) and two sequential backup would cost more time.  Best regards R. Wingert    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 09:59:45 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement3 Message-ID: <X7GMFwYbfui6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <436f4003@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> writes: > < > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message/ > news:za0E5CzZIwhJ@eisner.encompasserve.org... 9 >> In article <436f2ad7@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "Guy Peleg" / > <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> writes:  >> >> > Tape shadowing: >> > ----------------------  >> >8 >> > The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape >> > saveset concurrently. >>? >> This would be highly useful, although the same goal might be B >> achieved for many sites by a supported BACKUP/COPY.  The latter@ >> approach has the advantage of susceptibility to being applies >> as an afterthought. >> >> > Tape striping >> > ------------------------  >> >; >> > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped 8 >> > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives. >> >< >> > Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the( >> > strip to be loaded into the drives. >>B >> This would seem extremely hard to implement so that it would be@ >> compatible with the first one, since different output streams > * > Good....it means job security for me ;-) > @ >> would hit EOT at different times due to vagaries in media and@ >> drives.  Even if you could write it successfully, the resultsA >> would not be interchangeable, since one could not use tape B17 ? >> with tape A16 on the restore, and thus you would need unique @ >> names for the NxM tapes leading to user confusion even if the >> software were flawless. > B > I assume that we'll have strict set of rules for striping, maybe@ > all tapes must be identical? not sure yet as I said very early > stages of thinking...   > Unless there are new tape technologies I have not heard about,B tapes can never be as identical as disks (where such a "same size"A requirement can be met).  Even with identical lengths measured to B the angstrom level, tapes stretch and the space taken up by X bits? of data will vary from one run to the other.  One tape will run  out before the other.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 08:05:53 -0800 3 From: "Big John" <john.powers@airwidesolutions.com> 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancementB Message-ID: <1131379553.502558.17780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  F Well, were I work at the moment, I don't really need it, but I am sure) that in general it will be well received.   G Indeed where I used to work 9 years ago we had the first option already  availiable!   B (I am amazed Wayne Sewell has not responded to this, he is usually< sharp as a button at spotting opportunities to publicise his creations!)   C Tapesys has this option already available. I know, as in the past I G used it and found it a real boon. In my new job (not very new actually, C I have been here 7 years now), I don't need it and haven't seen any C installation of it in many years, but I am sure it is still around.   G Maybe if this is still in the planning, cerebral phase, and you haven't E yet put finger to keyboard about it, you could save a lot of time and ? effort re-inventing it, by offering to buy a copy of their tape G shadowing software, and get it out in half the time. (I believe that is % very similar to is how SLS was born).    Just an idea..   - John   Guy Peleg wrote: > Hi folks,  > 5 > We are toying with the idea of modifying VMS BACKUP 8 > to support tape striping and tape shadowing, what does
 > it mean? >  > Tape shadowing:  > ---------------------- > 5 > The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape  > saveset concurrently.  >  > Tape striping  > ------------------------ > 8 > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped5 > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives.  > 9 > Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the % > strip to be loaded into the drives.  >  > What do you think? > : > I'm looking for feedback like yes this is a good idea or7 > no it is a waste of time. Please do not ask questions 3 > about implementation as we are in a VERY!!! early : > stage of planning and obviously this is not a commitment > that we'll actually do it....  >  > Thank you for your feedback. >  > Guy Peleg  > OpenVMS engineering    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:15:34 GMT % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement; Message-ID: <G4Lbf.6656$Kv.5890@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>   C "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> wrote in message  $ news:436f2ad7@usenet01.boi.hp.com... > Hi folks,  > 5 > We are toying with the idea of modifying VMS BACKUP 8 > to support tape striping and tape shadowing, what does
 > it mean? >  > Tape shadowing:  > ---------------------- > 5 > The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape  > saveset concurrently.  >  > Tape striping  > ------------------------ > 8 > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped5 > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives.  > 9 > Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the % > strip to be loaded into the drives.  >  > What do you think? > : > I'm looking for feedback like yes this is a good idea or7 > no it is a waste of time. Please do not ask questions 3 > about implementation as we are in a VERY!!! early : > stage of planning and obviously this is not a commitment > that we'll actually do it....  >   D I would rather see the effort spent a new file system that includes K enhancements that can make backup better and easier for all OpenVMS users.  ' Whatever happened to Snapshot services?    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:37:37 -0800 4 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com>6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement% Message-ID: <1131381453.181142@smirk>    Guy Peleg wrote:  5 > We are toying with the idea of modifying VMS BACKUP 8 > to support tape striping and tape shadowing, what does
 > it mean?  8 > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped5 > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives.  > 9 > Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the % > strip to be loaded into the drives.   : I am concerned about the possible increased risk caused by; a damaged tape.   If by "striping", you mean writing pieces : of each file on different tapes (like disk striping), then; a single bad tape means (I think) that you lose everything.   9 For example, let's say that a disk backup takes two tapes 8 to hold everything.   Half of the files are on the first> tape and half are on the second (ignoring boundary conditions,; etc.).   If the second tape is damaged, but my desired file ) is on the first one, I can restore it OK.   8 If striping causes pieces of my file to be spread across9 two tapes, then no files from either tape can be restored  if one tape is bad.    Can you address this fear?   Thanks,  Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:47:18 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement< Message-ID: <qyLbf.22898$Av1.5938@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   John Vottero wrote:   F > I would rather see the effort spent a new file system that includes M > enhancements that can make backup better and easier for all OpenVMS users.  ) > Whatever happened to Snapshot services?   F Snapshot backups was one of the design goals of Spiralog. When it was D dropped we were promised Snapshot services - then that was dropped. L Again there were claims of problems but a Google search finds this rebuttal: =====  Newsgroups: comp.os.vms F From: "Kevin Playford" <kevin.playf...@virgin.net> - Find messages by  this author $ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:00:44 -0000 Local: Wed, Nov 1 2000 8:00 pm0 Subject: Re: What happened to Snapshot Services?    A I guess my question was a loaded one as I'd worked on the product  previously.   G The core of Snapshot Services still lives, I believe, in the Windows NT  product.  H As for the product not working in a cluster. Well I'm not going to argue against L the posted view about problems working in a cluster. There were problems but2 I don't believe they were insurmountable problems.  " Water under the bridge I'm afraid.   Kevin ) Ex Project Lead for VMS Snapshot Services  ========  H DEC/Compaq/HP didn't need much of an excuse to cut a project throughout  the never ending downsizing.     --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 09:01:06 -0800 % From: "Antoniov" <antoniov@shs-av.it> 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancementC Message-ID: <1131382866.125627.240930@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   G I posted the same question to Italian people who can't speak english at < http://it.openvms.org/itopenvmsforum/viewtopic.php?p=109#1091 As soon as possible I'll post translated answers.     Antonio    ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:04:14 +0000 (UTC). From: Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com>6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement, Message-ID: <dko1ee$63k$1@reader2.panix.com>  Y On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:22:13 +0200, Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> wrote: 5 > We are toying with the idea of modifying VMS BACKUP 8 > to support tape striping and tape shadowing, what does
 > it mean? > Tape shadowing:  > ----------------------5 > The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape  > saveset concurrently.  > Tape striping  > ------------------------8 > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped5 > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives. 9 > Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the % > strip to be loaded into the drives.   % I think both of these will be useful.   A I know that you only asked for comments on these two changes, but 6 since you're in there making changes, I'd like to see:+   1. BACKUP/STATISTICS like SORT/STATISTICS    2. BACKUP ... BACKUP1.ZIP/ZIP ? which someone else already mentioned.  Of course, the zip would * have to keep the VMS file attributes, too.   --  7 Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com> (lose the Q's)    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 09:14:35 -0800  From: "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com>6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancementC Message-ID: <1131383675.578596.258870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Guy,  C Another feature that I wish VMS Backup could have would be to allow @ multiplexing of multiple data streams onto the tape.   This is aE feature that I have seen in other backup products from other vendors. C This way you can have multiple threads gathering data from multiple E files and another thread gathering them and streaming them all to the @ tape drive in a multiplexed fashion(and doing the data integrityD calculations). This provides a significant speedup in the feeding of@ the tape drive(s).  This kind of feature could also be immenselyG helpful for sending data to multiple tapes.  In fact you could have the C multiplexor thread(s) directing data traffic to multiple outputs in 7 parallel almost as easily as to a single stream to one.   C I see the biggest challenge with the multiple drive output scenario F being the issue of how do you read it back in if you have fewer drivesC available on another system when you need to do a disaster recovery  restore?  F Tape shadowing sounds like a great idea.  I have the same comment thatF has already been made about how do you deal with EOT when you know theD tapes will not be identical in length?   Do you do the End-of-VolumeC processing for all the media in the shadowset when the shortest one F hits EOT?  What if the media are really dissimilar (TK88,TK89 or other pairs like that)???    Robert   Guy Peleg wrote: > Hi folks,  > 5 > We are toying with the idea of modifying VMS BACKUP 8 > to support tape striping and tape shadowing, what does
 > it mean? >  > Tape shadowing:  > ---------------------- > 5 > The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape  > saveset concurrently.  >  > Tape striping  > ------------------------ > 8 > Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped5 > up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives.  > 9 > Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the % > strip to be loaded into the drives.  >  > What do you think? > : > I'm looking for feedback like yes this is a good idea or7 > no it is a waste of time. Please do not ask questions 3 > about implementation as we are in a VERY!!! early : > stage of planning and obviously this is not a commitment > that we'll actually do it....  >  > Thank you for your feedback. >  > Guy Peleg  > OpenVMS engineering    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:19:58 -0500( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement0 Message-ID: <00A4C71E.08989206.23@tachysoft.com>  4 >From: "Big John" <john.powers@airwidesolutions.com> >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms7 >Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement   >Date: 7 Nov 2005 08:05:53 -0800' >Organization: http://groups.google.com      > G >Well, were I work at the moment, I don't really need it, but I am sure * >that in general it will be well received. > H >Indeed where I used to work 9 years ago we had the first option already >availiable!  O Absolutely.  tapesys (or rather the embedded product tshad) has been able to do O this since at least 1992, when I first started working with software partners.  K Indeed, tshad was the first product I worked on when I started consulting.  G Looking at the comments in the source, tshad was first created in 1988.    > C >(I am amazed Wayne Sewell has not responded to this, he is usually = >sharp as a button at spotting opportunities to publicise his  >creations!)  N Yeah, I was kind of asleep at the wheel on this one.  Thanks for mentioning myO name.  I have news scanning software running in background scanning for certain 9 keywords, and it sent me mail when my name appeared.  :-)    > D >Tapesys has this option already available. I know, as in the past IH >used it and found it a real boon. In my new job (not very new actually,D >I have been here 7 years now), I don't need it and haven't seen anyD >installation of it in many years, but I am sure it is still around.  M Not only that, but it is running on itanium!  Not yet released, as testing is > still in progress, but there are no currently open bugs on it.   > H >Maybe if this is still in the planning, cerebral phase, and you haven'tF >yet put finger to keyboard about it, you could save a lot of time and@ >effort re-inventing it, by offering to buy a copy of their tape6 >shadowing software, and get it out in half the time.   E Or better yet, just encourage people to buy tapesys/tshad and get the  functionality today.  :-)    >(I believe that is & >very similar to is how SLS was born).  O yes, the original sls was a snapshot of tapesys from sometime back in the 80s.  @ They have diverged since, but there are still many similarities.  N Interestingly, tapesys and sls are coming back together in a sense.  Since slsO is not being taken to itanium and tapesys is already running on it, many of the J sls customers are considering tapesys as the closest alternative.  The slsN databases are very similar to tapesys 5.2, so the database conversion from slsN to tapesys 6.2 is virtually no different from the conversion during an upgradeH from older tapesys.  I have successfully converted several live customer sls databases.O =============================================================================== N Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html    O =============================================================================== P Jake Blues:"You traded the Caddy for a microphone? ...... Okay, I can buy that."   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 11:11:29 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.org6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement3 Message-ID: <$3cBWYc7ztd+@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <1131381453.181142@smirk>, Alan Frisbie <Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> writes: > Guy Peleg wrote: > 6 >> We are toying with the idea of modifying VMS BACKUP9 >> to support tape striping and tape shadowing, what does  >> it mean?  > 9 >> Backup of large data stores can be substaintially sped 6 >> up by writing the save set to multiple tape drives. >>  : >> Restoring the saveset will require all tapes making the& >> strip to be loaded into the drives. > < > I am concerned about the possible increased risk caused by= > a damaged tape.   If by "striping", you mean writing pieces < > of each file on different tapes (like disk striping), then= > a single bad tape means (I think) that you lose everything.  > ; > For example, let's say that a disk backup takes two tapes : > to hold everything.   Half of the files are on the first@ > tape and half are on the second (ignoring boundary conditions,= > etc.).   If the second tape is damaged, but my desired file + > is on the first one, I can restore it OK.  > : > If striping causes pieces of my file to be spread across; > two tapes, then no files from either tape can be restored  > if one tape is bad.  >  > Can you address this fear?  F Clearly, it can be addressed.  RAID 0+1 or RAID 5 are both applicable.  E Just write one or more parity tapes in parallel with your data tapes.   G Or one could simply realize that this is a niche product and the people D who need performance may be willing to live with the increased risk.H If I save my backup on a save set that spans 5 reels, and I lose a reel,E the backup is, for many purposes, just as useless whether those are 5 % reels in sequence or 5 reels striped.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 09:16:37 -0800 % From: "Antoniov" <antoniov@shs-av.it> 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancementB Message-ID: <1131383797.290550.88920@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Hi, F I think both features may be interesting for VMS users. But in my mindF it's more important backup should make a sort of snapshot before start it. B Any system administrator 24x7 would like to backup while system is= running and everyone knows how dangerous is /IGNORE=INTERLOCK @ qualifier. I even heard, next OpenVMS version don't support this
 qualifier.   Antonio  http://it.openvms.org    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 12:02:10 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.org6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement3 Message-ID: <LUWZVMU1gn85@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <1131383675.578596.258870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com> writes: > Guy, > E > Another feature that I wish VMS Backup could have would be to allow B > multiplexing of multiple data streams onto the tape.   This is aG > feature that I have seen in other backup products from other vendors. E > This way you can have multiple threads gathering data from multiple G > files and another thread gathering them and streaming them all to the B > tape drive in a multiplexed fashion(and doing the data integrityF > calculations). This provides a significant speedup in the feeding ofB > the tape drive(s).  This kind of feature could also be immenselyI > helpful for sending data to multiple tapes.  In fact you could have the E > multiplexor thread(s) directing data traffic to multiple outputs in 9 > parallel almost as easily as to a single stream to one.  > E > I see the biggest challenge with the multiple drive output scenario H > being the issue of how do you read it back in if you have fewer drivesE > available on another system when you need to do a disaster recovery 
 > restore? > H > Tape shadowing sounds like a great idea.  I have the same comment thatH > has already been made about how do you deal with EOT when you know theF > tapes will not be identical in length?   Do you do the End-of-VolumeE > processing for all the media in the shadowset when the shortest one H > hits EOT?  What if the media are really dissimilar (TK88,TK89 or other > pairs like that)???   I Yes.  You do EOV processing for all reels when any one of them approaches ' EOT.  That's how TAPESYS does it today.   I The alternatives do not bear much contemplation.  If you decouple logical A EOV from physical EOV, for instance, how are you going to support 0 skip record reverse that spans physical volumes?  D Just how much operator intervention are you going to tolerate in the% neighborhood of the first EOT marker?   E I do not speak for VMS engineering.  It just seems obvious to me that 3 there's exactly one reasonable implementation path.    	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 10:08:49 -0800 ! From: kenneth.randell@verizon.net 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancementC Message-ID: <1131386929.749592.126550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Guy Peleg wrote: > Hi folks,  >  >  > What do you think? >   G Just to be contrary, I'd vote this is waste of time, or at least asking ' here in comp.os.vms is a waste of time.    Why?  < 1) TAPESYS already exists, works well, and is well supported  B 2) I think there are other priorities the limited resources of VMSF Engineering should be working on, not the least of which is making our- porting lives easier -- fork() comes to mind.   G 3) At times it's mentioned that for a particular VMS feature request, a F 'business case' is needed or should be submitted.  Folks who lurk hereE I suspect are not the ones in control of the $$$, so what's the point ? of asking lots of VMS enthusiasts here if they would like a new F feature? Where's the business case for tinkering with BACKUP now after8 some 20 years after it's introduction (VMS 2.5 I think)?   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 12:25:01 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement3 Message-ID: <pWfe0NlIUtjp@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <1131384044.504645.52550@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com> writes: C > If /IGNORE=INTERLOCK won't be supported, and there is no snapshot A > service available, VMS backups will become nearly impossible to  > accomplish in 24x7x365 shops.  >   > Where did you hear this rumor?  C Your post quoted no context showing anyone talking about any rumor. @ Do not assume that everybody's newsreading software is identical: to your own, or that they receive posts in the same order.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:43:21 -0500( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement/ Message-ID: <00A4C729.AE2D42E7.3@tachysoft.com>   2 >X-MX-Warning:   Warning -- Invalid "From" header.8 >From: "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms3 >Subject: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement % >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:22:13 +0200      > 4 >We are toying with the idea of modifying VMS BACKUP7 >to support tape striping and tape shadowing, what does 	 >it mean?  >  >Tape shadowing: >----------------------  > 4 >The ability to write two (or more) copies of a tape >saveset concurrently. >   N As has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, tapesys customers have had thisG capability for the last 17 years.  tapesys itself does not perform tape O shadowing, but includes an embedded optional product called tshad.  There is no N extra cost for tshad.  As far as I know there never has been.  If you have the( cdrom, all you have to do is install it.  M Usage is trivially easy.  One merely adds "copies == 2" (or some other number F greater than 1, limited to the number of physical tape drives that areO available) to the backup definition file.  If copies > 1, tapesys automatically J activates tshad, allocates the multiple drives and tapes, and performs theJ concurrent backup.  Since the duplicate tapes have separate records in theM tapesys database, they can independently be marked as onsite and offsite, and O the offsite copy can processed by the tapesys autovault system with no operator M intervention.  At the same time, the onsite copy is treated as just a regular M tape.  And both copies appear in the tapesys history and summary information, # making them available for restores.   K I have described the inner workings of tshad before, but here it is again.  L When you create the shadow set, a virtual tape drive is created and bound toN the specified number of physical tape drives.  (Note: tshad operates at driverP level, so you cannot mismatch drive types.  They have to all be the same type.) M VMS backup sees only the virtual drive and thinks it is dealing with a single I drive with a single tape and a single label.  (The multiple labels on the N multiple tapes are handled behind the scenes.)  Therefore tshad works with any version of vms backup.  J tshad works at the qio level.  Any qio issued to the virtual tape drive byK backup (read, write, rewind, setmode, sensemode, whatever) is replicated to L each of the physical drives.  When all of the duplicate operations complete,L the virtual operation is posted complete.  If all return codes are good, theI return code for the virtual op is good.  A failure on any drive becomes a K failure on the virtual drive, so backup performs its normal error handling, M even though not all drives actually had an error.  This may cause unnecessary M rewriting on some of the drives, but the savesets remain logically identical.   L It is possible for different drive/tape combinations to reach end of tape atM different times, especially open reel tapes, which can be radically different H in length.  But the error processing above holds in this case.  When theM shortest reel hits end of tape, they all hit end of tape, even though all but N one may actually have tape left.  At this point, tapesys loads the next set ofL tapes, and backup continues, just as if there had just been a single drive. 7 Again, all savesets continue to be logically identical.    Wayne O =============================================================================== N Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html    O =============================================================================== P Jake Blues:"You traded the Caddy for a microphone? ...... Okay, I can buy that."   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 07:21:21 -0800  From: mckinneyj@saic.com) Subject: Re: TCPDUMP like utility for LAT C Message-ID: <1131376881.089611.180830@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   C Using MultiNet I've been successful in using TCPDUMP to observe LAT A packets by specifying an "ether host" or "ether proto" expression B argument (separately or in combination) - perhaps the TCPDUMP withG other stacks offers similar capability. Anyway, the syntax for MultiNet  is as follows:  G $ mu tcpdump/ether/hex/snap=1500/dev=ewa0: ether host AA-00-04-00-D8-6D   : $ mu tcpdump/ether/hex/snap=1500/dev=ewa0: ether proto lat   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 14:10:47 GMT . From: JONESD@ecr6.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)! Subject: Re: VMS magtape handling : Message-ID: <dknn97$ja4$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  0 In message <BF9430A1.1774C%roktsci@comcast.net>,-    Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net> writes: A On 11/6/05 6:54 PM, in article Hlzbf.10445$7s1.6578@fe04.lga, "Z"  <Z@no.spam> wrote:   > Alan Frisbie wrote: L >>> Two successive tape marks with no interventing data records signify "end >>> of tape  > = >> Not always true!   If you have an ANSI-formatted mag tape, @ >> and one of the files is empty (has no records), you will have< >> two tape marks with no intervening data records.   We got> >> caught by this when making copies of an old RT-11 DECUS SIG? >> tape with exactly this situation.   The "standard" tape copy ? >> program of the time, TPC, had to be modified (with an option  >> switch) to handle this. >  > Then how do you locate EOT?   L >While this is true that you can have two consecutive file marks that do notL >signify the end of volume in an ANSI formatted tape when the file length isK >zero, the MTACP knows this because it was immediately preceded by a header J >file which just told you the file name and the number of tape blocks thatI >follow (ie zero). In an ANSI tape volume, after the Volume header files, L >each named file stored on the tape is actually made up of two physical tapeK >files; first the header file (which describes the attributes of the file),  >followed by the data file.  >   < Actually, it's 3 files: header labels, data, trailer labels.  G On a VMS 8.2 Alpha, I just tried creating a tape volume on a TLZ07 with I several files, the second of which having no data records.  There were no G problems writing the files, but RMS directory operations get thoroughly O confused by the double file mark and won't read any files past the second file. M If you mount the tape foreign, you can read past the double tape mark and see % that the other files are on the tape.   K >The ANSI specification does state that two consecutive file marks found in A >place of the header file does indeed indicate the end of volume.   K The magnetic tape driver is documented to set the EOV status bit whenever a M skipfile operation sees 2 tape marks in a row.  It doesn't look like MTACP is & properly recognizing the spurious EOV.      < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 271-6718- Ohio State University        |      Internet: L 140 W. 19th St.              |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Nov 2005 08:23:04 -0800  From: tomarsin2015@comcast.net3 Subject: WTB Pathworks V6.0A  cd or 4.X on diskette C Message-ID: <1131380584.834058.177760@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    Hello F I'm looking for either version. I would like the complete package, (ie docs and media). thanks phil   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:16:08 +0100( From: "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de>8 Subject: ZFS from Sun, what's about a new FS for OpenVMS3 Message-ID: <005001c5e384$45083080$994614ac@wat153>    Hello,G Suns new file system (Zettabyte File System) is a great new innovation. B I am missing something like that within OpenVMS. Is there any fileF system greater then 32bit under OpenVMS? What's the future of OpenVMS,5 if we don't get anything like ZFS in the near future?  Best regards R. Wingert    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 10:30:04 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>< Subject: Re: ZFS from Sun, what's about a new FS for OpenVMS< Message-ID: <M0Gbf.20404$Av1.8581@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   Rudolf Wingert wrote:  > Hello,I > Suns new file system (Zettabyte File System) is a great new innovation. D > I am missing something like that within OpenVMS. Is there any fileH > system greater then 32bit under OpenVMS? What's the future of OpenVMS,7 > if we don't get anything like ZFS in the near future?   I The VMS new file system (Spiralog/TNFS/Files-64) was done and cancelled.   Overview still available:   E "Overview of the Spiralog File System (1996)  (Make Corrections)  (8  
 citations) James Johnson, William Laing; Digital Technical Journal of Digital Equipment Corporation"    http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/rd/42119472%2C348843%2C1%2C0.25%2CDownload/http%3AqSqqSqresearch.compaq.comqSqwrlqSqDECarchivesqSqDTJqSqDTJM00qSq..qSqDTJM01qSqDTJM01PF.PDF   9 or try http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/johnson96overview.html  if that link doesn't work.   > Best regards R. Wingert  >    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 10:40:03 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>< Subject: Re: ZFS from Sun, what's about a new FS for OpenVMS= Message-ID: <7aGbf.20497$Av1.13253@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   F A better link is http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol8num2/toc.htm @ which is direct link to Digital Technical Journal Volume 8 No 2  discussing Spiralog.]   F The official story is that it was cancelled because of insurmountable B performance problems - the reason the developers gave is that the F project was cancelled to save money and all staff on the project made I redundant. All cited performance issues were already being addressed and  G were expected in the first release. At least that's what the team told    me just before they were sacked.   --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 07:22:29 -0600 (CST)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)8 Subject: ZFS from Sun, what's about a new FS for OpenVMS2 Message-ID: <05110707222955_202AAB19@antinode.org>  ( From: "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de>   > [...]  Is there any fileH > system greater then 32bit under OpenVMS? What's the future of OpenVMS,7 > if we don't get anything like ZFS in the near future?   E    About which 32-bit limit are you talking?  Are you bothered by the ! file_size > 1TB problem, or what?   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:46:36 +0100( From: "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de>< Subject: Re: ZFS from Sun, what's about a new FS for OpenVMS3 Message-ID: <000901c5e3b2$70d41c00$994614ac@wat153>    Hallo,   Alan Greig wrotes  < ... and cancelled.  C I think a cancelled FS is no good solution and not very innovative.    Best regards R. Wingert    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.622 ************************