1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 14 Nov 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 636       Contents:8 Re: ALL printers are electronic thieves (Was just Epson) copy [000000...]*.*  Re: copy [000000...]*.*  Re: copy [000000...]*.*  Re: copy [000000...]*.*  Re: copy [000000...]*.*  Re: copy [000000...]*.* " DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n& Re: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n& Re: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n& Re: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n& Re: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n& Re: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n. Re: FW: OT: Microsoft drop more Itanic support+ Re: OT: Sun's Andy Bechtolsheim  on Itanium - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement - Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement % Re: Strange Network performance issue G Re: Will Rich Marcello either come clean or do some proper marketingand G Re: Will Rich Marcello either come clean or do some proper marketingand P Would ya tie it up with wy-er. . .just to keep the show on the road? Hey true bl  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:43:05 GMT  From: murray@jbmsystems.com A Subject: Re: ALL printers are electronic thieves (Was just Epson) : Message-ID: <vsGdndsTmLcMP-XenZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@comcast.com>   Here is an option.  K OctoTools is an easy to use document management tool suite that encompasses L Forms Design, Report Formatting, Electronic Distribution, Printing, and Text to PDF conversion.L Advanced features include GUI based design environment, Built-in Post ScriptJ and PCL printer output, Drag and Drop placement of all elements, AutomaticK dynamic text and forms merge, Text boxes for dynamic and static text & Data L Design elements, objects, images & text boxes, User defined "green bar" typeI striping, "Watched" directory support, Conditional based data formatting, G Dynamic switch of overlays based on data, Barcodes including 2D pdf417, F Email, URL, or whole file, Multiprocessor support, Variable opacity of# elements and backgrounds, and more.  visit us at www.jbmsystems.com   --   Mike mike@jbmsystems.com  978-535-7676, OctoTools(tm) Squeezes More From Your Budget   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:33:52 -0500 + From: Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu>  Subject: copy [000000...]*.*5 Message-ID: <dla78g$aua$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>   > Is there a copy utility that will copy specified directories, 3 sub-directories, and all files under directories on G a specific volum and node to another node and volume and do it without    loosing any file permissions and protections?   Thanks,  Chuck    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:48:41 -0500 + From: Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu>   Subject: Re: copy [000000...]*.*5 Message-ID: <dla849$bas$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>    Alan,   C Yes, I can use backup but I was looking to see if there might be a  0 utility out there that I can use during run-timeE that will allow me to get all the files without loosing any that are  ' currently being accessed. If not, I can 5 shutdown the system for image backups and do it then.            Alan Greig wrote:    >  >  > Chuck Aaron wrote: > A >> Is there a copy utility that will copy specified directories,  6 >> sub-directories, and all files under directories onB >> a specific volum and node to another node and volume and do it + >> without loosing any file permissions and  >> protections?  >  > F > BACKUP. Be more specific if you think there's some reason you can't 
 > use BACKUP.  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 14:38:53 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>  Subject: Re: copy [000000...]*.*= Message-ID: <1k1ef.15374$Es4.13091@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    Chuck Aaron wrote:  @ > Is there a copy utility that will copy specified directories, 5 > sub-directories, and all files under directories on I > a specific volum and node to another node and volume and do it without  " > loosing any file permissions and > protections?  H BACKUP. Be more specific if you think there's some reason you can't use  BACKUP.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:59:56 +0000 (UTC) < From: gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens (Christoph Gartmann)  Subject: Re: copy [000000...]*.*) Message-ID: <dlac9s$nn4$1@news.BelWue.DE>   c In article <dla849$bas$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>, Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> writes:  >Alan, > D >Yes, I can use backup but I was looking to see if there might be a 1 >utility out there that I can use during run-time F >that will allow me to get all the files without loosing any that are ( >currently being accessed. If not, I can6 >shutdown the system for image backups and do it then.  % Still BACKUP with /IGNORE=INTERLOCK .    Regards,    Christoph Gartmann    --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:06:23 -0800 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>  Subject: Re: copy [000000...]*.*0 Message-ID: <BF9DF5FF.17CE1%roktsci@comcast.net>  H On 11/14/05 6:48 AM, in article dla849$bas$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu,. "Chuck Aaron" <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> wrote:   > Alan,  > D > Yes, I can use backup but I was looking to see if there might be a2 > utility out there that I can use during run-timeF > that will allow me to get all the files without loosing any that are) > currently being accessed. If not, I can 7 > shutdown the system for image backups and do it then.  >  >  >  >  >  > Alan Greig wrote:  >  >>   >>   >> Chuck Aaron wrote:  >>  A >>> Is there a copy utility that will copy specified directories, 7 >>> sub-directories, and all files under directories on B >>> a specific volum and node to another node and volume and do it, >>> without loosing any file permissions and >>> protections? >>   >>  F >> BACKUP. Be more specific if you think there's some reason you can't >> use BACKUP. >>  I Backup is your utility. It will do exactly what you are saying. There are G two ways. One if you just want to copy the directories from one disk to G another and the second if you want to make a "Clone of the first disk".   @ $BACKUP/IGNORE=INTER source-disk:[*...]*.*;*  target-disk:[*...]8 (Note do not use [000000...]*.*;* as the specification).  5 $BACKUP/IMAGE/IGNORE=INTER source-disk:  target-disk:    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:58:46 GMT 3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)   Subject: Re: copy [000000...]*.*4 Message-ID: <G75ef.16386$AP4.13717@news.cpqcorp.net>  c In article <dla849$bas$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>, Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> writes:  >Alan, > D >Yes, I can use backup but I was looking to see if there might be a 1 >utility out there that I can use during run-time F >that will allow me to get all the files without loosing any that are  >currently being accessed...  J If you copy files that are "currently being accessed" it does *NOT* matterD if you are using COPY, BACKUP or some other generaly copy mechanism.G You cannot be sure that you will get a consistent, usable copy of those  files.  H The only way to get certain good copies of files that are being accessedI is either an application specific program, or the snapshot/on-line backup 0 capablities of some data base managment systems.  D It might help you to get better ideas if you explain in more detail $ the problem you are trying to solve.   --  J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Nov 2005 07:56:26 -0800 From: carfer@gmail.com+ Subject: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n C Message-ID: <1131983786.376736.310190@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Hi, all    New question relating DCPS.   A With a lpr/lpd queue the command print/copies=n just does that. N  copies of the same document.  G When using the same command with a dcps queue I see that no FormFeed is  done between the pages.   D Is this the normal behaviour? Do I have to solve it with some setup?  F The queue is setup as /noburst/noflag using default form Dcps$default.  	 Any hint?    TIA    Carlos Fernandez   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Nov 2005 08:29:02 -0800 From: carfer@gmail.com/ Subject: Re: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n C Message-ID: <1131985742.951404.279810@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   C They are text ascii files. Printed as /param=data=pcl, because they , have inside a small escape secuence. (ESC(0N ESC(s0p10.00h12.0v0s0b3T').   5 PRINT /QUE=SYS$PRINT_3 FILE.TXT/PARAM=DATA=PCL /COP:2    If printed one, is Ok.E If printed more than one, no FF (formfeed) is done so the second copy  just goes in the same page.      You can try,  + Edit a text file with this escape secuence.   D Put some lines of text inside. And print them. What I get is all the copies in the same page.   Que details. ALPHA >SH QUE SYS$PRINT_3 /FULL F Printer queue SYS$PRINT_3, idle, on DS10L::"IP_RawTCP/laser4300:9100", mounted form DEFAULT<   /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FORM=DEFAULT) /NOENABLE_GENERICA   /LIBRARY=DCPS_LIB Lowercase /OWNER=[SYSTEM] /PROCESSOR=DCPS$SMB 2   /PROTECTION=(S:M,O:D,G:R,W:S) /SCHEDULE=(NOSIZE)   Carlos   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Nov 2005 17:56:07 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)/ Subject: Re: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n , Message-ID: <4378cfb7$1@news.langstoeger.at>  \ In article <1131985742.951404.279810@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, carfer@gmail.com writes:D >They are text ascii files. Printed as /param=data=pcl, because they- >have inside a small escape secuence. (ESC(0N  >ESC(s0p10.00h12.0v0s0b3T'). > 6 >PRINT /QUE=SYS$PRINT_3 FILE.TXT/PARAM=DATA=PCL /COP:2   Shouldn't this be   B $ PRINT /QUE=SYS$PRINT_3 FILE.TXT/PARAM=(DATA=PCL,SHEET_COUNT=2) ?   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Nov 2005 10:06:34 -0800 From: carfer@gmail.com/ Subject: Re: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n C Message-ID: <1131991594.929288.185590@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    As from the 2.4 User manual  "1.5 Specifying Multiple Copies E To make multiple copies of a file, use any of the following commands:  =B7 PRINT/JOB_COUNT=3Dn  Prints the entire job n times. =B7 PRINT/COPIES=3Dn Prints each file n times. & =B7 PRINT/PARAMETERS=3DSHEET_COUNT=3DnD Prints each sheet of the print job n times. Copies are not collated, unlessB you print to the COLLATOR tray of a printer that has such a tray."   Anyway thanks for the point.   Carlos   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Nov 2005 10:13:34 -0800 From: carfer@gmail.com/ Subject: Re: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n C Message-ID: <1131992014.264075.201250@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   . Have tested with sheet_count = 2 and it works.  @ But still not working if instead of sheet_count = copies you put /copies = 2.  F It states clear in the User Manual, 2.4 version, that you get the same8 results from one way and the other, so it must be a bug.   regards    Carlos   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Nov 2005 10:25:13 -0800 From: carfer@gmail.com/ Subject: Re: DCPS and form feeds with /copies=n C Message-ID: <1131992713.036141.228300@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   
 More testing.   F Even worse, Sheet_count =N print N copies of the same file. Not always desired., /copies=N, prints N copies of the text file.  D For instance, what you get with the first one in a 10 page text fileD with five copies is, five times page 1, five more page 2....till the end.  G With /copies=5 you get page from 1 to 10, five times, so it's easier to  manipulate.   E I''be testing more, meanwhile I'm working with a telnetsym queue with  no problems of this kind.    Regards    Carlos   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:35:44 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 7 Subject: Re: FW: OT: Microsoft drop more Itanic support 0 Message-ID: <11nhin7ko5e8ofb@corp.supernews.com>   Dave Froble wrote:I >> Which of the following options would you pick if you were in charge of  >> OpenVMS:  >>H >> Option A: build in more UNIX compatibility, new file system, build inC >> new performance features, virtualization and workload management 4 >> features, get new ISV's on current platform or... >>G >> Option B. Port to a new x86 platform and put option A on hold for 2+ 	 >> years.  >  > J > Obviously option B.  But that supposes that the itanic will continue to F > be manufactured.  There seem to be plenty of people, with no vested ; > interest either way, that are rather doubtful about that.   # Ooops, should have read "option A".    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:44:53 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>4 Subject: Re: OT: Sun's Andy Bechtolsheim  on Itanium0 Message-ID: <Oq6dnSkdNYSsUOXeRVn-ow@bresnan.com>   Alan Greig wrote:    > Obviously he's biased but:$ > Business Week - November 14th 2005O > http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/nov2005/tc20051114_612409.htm   >  > @ > "Where do you see Intel's Itanium processor in the context of  > high-performance computing?    At SGI.   D > Bechtolsheim: If you look at the market reality, the shipments of I > Itanium are so low, anybody would ask why they're even putting it out.  E > Actual shipment rates last quarter were, like, 6,000 systems. That  J > compares to AMD Opteron, shipping close to 10 million shipments a year. J > Itanium was always more expensive, and it wasn't faster. The only place K > Itanium is left today is Hewlett-Packard's (HPQ) systems, which are very  
 > expensive."  > H > Maybe HP should just buy back Itanium. If it can't resurrect Alpha at K > least it would send a message it was serious. Especially as a lot of the  G > negative Itanium press coverage now seems to be leaking out of Intel  	 > itself.  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:24:13 +0000 0 From: Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement4 Message-ID: <dl9l3u$onm$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>   Bob Koehler wrote:i > In article <dl1nec$14u$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>, Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes:  > B >>I can see the value, although personally I wouldn't need either. >>@ >>What I'd like is functionality to write to exactly ONE tape ;)  G >    What you want is exactly what I don't want.  The current behaviour F >    lets me start backups overnight, change tapes in the morning, and7 >    rest assured that ALL my data is safely backed up.   @ I wasn't suggesting it as universal behaviour - your wishes are  perfectly reasonable. H But I don't want my backup starting tape 2 and filling it in prime-time.B I do want everything finished first thing, and I'm content with a 4 partial backup. I want an option to behave this way.  F >    Meanwhile, one simple "reply/abort" and you can actually get what >    you're looking for. >  >    OPCOM is a great friend.   I That's all very well, but it requires someone logged in, privileged, and   trained.   Chris    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Nov 2005 14:13:21 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement, Message-ID: <43789b81$1@news.langstoeger.at>  g In article <dl9l3u$onm$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes:  >Bob Koehler wrote: G >>    Meanwhile, one simple "reply/abort" and you can actually get what  >>    you're looking for.  >>   >>    OPCOM is a great friend. > J >That's all very well, but it requires someone logged in, privileged, and 	 >trained.   J Not really. If you have no operator (means also not OPA0 enabled) then theB requests aborts itself immediately with "no operator available..."   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Nov 2005 07:42:49 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement3 Message-ID: <hbuCKk7dUMzQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <3tkb0lFte96dU1@individual.net>, Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch> writes:H >> I can see the tax people now.  "What do you mean that you don't have @ >> supporting data for this $20,000,000 deduction?  Disallowed!" >>   > 3 > Giving that example is just being sensationalist.   /    That example is reality, sensational or not.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:45:34 +0000 0 From: Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>6 Subject: Re: Request for feedback - BACKUP enhancement4 Message-ID: <dlabeu$a92$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:i > In article <dl9l3u$onm$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes:  >  >>Bob Koehler wrote: >>G >>>   Meanwhile, one simple "reply/abort" and you can actually get what  >>>   you're looking for.  >>>  >>>   OPCOM is a great friend. >>K >>That's all very well, but it requires someone logged in, privileged, and  
 >>trained. >  > L > Not really. If you have no operator (means also not OPA0 enabled) then theD > requests aborts itself immediately with "no operator available..."  ) Didn't particularly want to disable OPA0. F I can live with this (wrote nightwatchman to enable me to do so), but  don't like it.   Chris    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:52:42 +0100 ( From: "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de>. Subject: Re: Strange Network performance issue3 Message-ID: <005101c5e8f0$6432e7e0$994614ac@wat153>    Hello,   Jeff Cameron wrotes:  1 > Nodes are connected through a single common Hub   E This should be impossible. A hub is a common collision domain. Within ? one collision domain could be only one speed and full duplex is . impossible. So I think you will have a switch.  H > Decnet Copy and FTP Speeds are consistent with one an other, and shown here:   G Please use the DTsend utility to test the speed between the nodes. This H will test memory to memory speed and is much better then other tests. AsB I could see, you have one slow node (10Mb/s) and two fast EthernetE nodes. With DTSEND you should get  80% throughput of the slowest node C speed at least (e.g. MAUI to PELE ! KUPUA > 8Mb/s, between PELE and   KUPUA > 80Mb/s [Mb = Mega bit]).H Communication between fast node and slow node can become down in case ofH loosing packages. Reason: the slow node can fetch the packages only withB 10Mb/s, but the fast node sends with 100Mb/s ten times faster. TheE switch must store the packages. If you will get buffer overflow, then F you will loose packages and bus speed will slow down. Set the PIPELINEH quota on the Fast Ethernet nodes to a small value (e.g. 4*1496Bytes). SoF the nodes will send only e few packages and then wait for acknowledge.; The connection should speed up in case of  no loose pakage.   ' Hope this help. Best regards R. Wingert    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Nov 2005 09:18:43 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) P Subject: Re: Will Rich Marcello either come clean or do some proper marketingand3 Message-ID: <X87B7jtZxZS2@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <4376D51D.2CCE330E@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > "Main, Kerry" wrote:H >> The NSK folks have already stated they will be using standard ItaniumF >> systems in a triplicated configuration that is essentially software( >> based to achieve its fault tolerance. >  > % > When was this announced ? In 2004 ?  >   : 	I doubt that your interested or you would more often than6 	not answer your own question, circle back and show us, 	what you found.  But that's not your style.  
 	Here, enjoy:   k http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=3044&Thread=113&entryID=45371&roomID=11   J Future IPF MPUs will be essentially impossible to run in cycle-locksteppedK pairs, whether co-located on same die or on separate chips. Intel's Foxtron K games with self-controlled dynamically overclocked frequencies and voltages M will preclude having big domains running a single synchronous clock. So we've L abandoned our usual cycle-lockstepped dual designs, and gone to plan B. ThisK uses loosely-coupled duplex or triplex MPUs, with separate memories, voting L only at bus-synchronized I/O events. This works for our message-based OS and; transaction workloads, but it won't generalize to Unix etc.   I Tandem once made a Unix box using 4 MPUs per logical processor. MPUs were M paired as cycle-lockstepped processors to get total hardware fault detection, L and spares of those pairs were used to get automatic hardware fault recoveryN after a pair declared itself dead. This had half of the thruput per MPU as theO NSK design, but it could run near-standard Unix in a fault tolerant way, and it M could handle SMP-style software. The only thing that still survives from that H Unix product is its name "Integrity", which HP has since re-applied to aM totally unrelated IPF Unix box with no redundancy and with conventional kinds  of reliability.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:00:59 +0100 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> P Subject: Re: Will Rich Marcello either come clean or do some proper marketingand= Message-ID: <4378c2c1$0$78285$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Bill Todd wrote: > Karsten Nyblad wrote: . >> Even software comparison may not be enough. >  > F > Yes, they are:  they are just much slower than hardware comparisons. > E > The situation you describe is solved by conventional transactional  : > mechanisms - it has nothing to do with hardware failure. >  > - bill  F You need software comparisons when ever a process locks a resource or F chances the state of some system wide data.  Basicly a process on one G computer trying to lock a resource may not continue before the sibling  I processes on the other computers try to lock the same resource, and then  E all the sibling processes must get the same answer on the request to  E lock the resource.  This includes getting resources like virtual and  H physical memory.  If a process on one of the computers wants to page in E a page of virtual memory, then it should only be allowed to continue  F when the sibling processes on the other computers want to page in the E same page.  Why?  Because there is a small chance that paging a page  K will cause something to fail because of lack of virtual or physical memory.   H An this is not a conventional transaction problem.  In the conventional H transaction world two computer systems are not expected to generate the G same output---at least not expected to always generate the same output.   E But I think that we basicly agree that doing what Tandem systems are  < doing will be very difficult to do without hardware support.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:36:41 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> Y Subject: Would ya tie it up with wy-er. . .just to keep the show on the road? Hey true bl 1 Message-ID: <dl9ltk$mtf$1@news-02.connect.com.au>   	 Hi Kerry,   ' "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote   J [Lots of stuff about Web Services that I am in violent agreement with. ButK you really must read up about WS-Transactions to appreciate the true horror J of what is being proposed! The one thing I will slightly disagree with youH about is .NET. Only 'cos from first hand experience in London and Perth,I there's a lot of it about. Don't know what exactly is being done with it, % just that there sure is a lot of it!]   G "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> then stuck the stylus in the same old % groove and banged on relentlessly :-)   I > RTR is a good solution that raises OpenVMS cluster very HA capabilities D > to software fault tolerant levels. Hence, even if a cpu dies and aI > system crashes, the RTR middleware ensures the committed transaction is 9 > re-tried on another system to ensure it gets completed.   L Once again the keywords being "a COMMITTED transaction is RE-TRIED"! What if# the re-try can no longer succeed???   F Let me tell you how it's supposed to work. A transaction simply cannotI COMMIT unless all participants (Resource managers like Rdb and SQL Server K and Transaction Managers like hotTIP and MTS/DTC) replied "Too bloody right K I can!" when they were asked if they were able to PREPARE. Now come hell or L high-water, earthquake or Tsunami, all  transaction participants conspire toJ preserve the ACID properties of this beautiful distributed transaction. IfI the link to the coordinator is down then hotTIP and MTS/DTC will continue A attempts to re-establish communication so that the outcome of the L transaction can be resolved. In the mean time Rdb steadfastly refuses to letK anyone have access to what could well be invalid data. (As an optimization, L SQL Server has already Committed because its Transaction Manager is also the; Coordinator and it knows that everyone has voted PREPARED.)   L Transactions can be resolved manually or heuristically in isolation if (evenJ in this HA world)  communication cannot be re-established in an acceptable time interval.  J Yep, DECdtm is a brilliant product! Why don't you ever have a good word to say about that?   C Now, as we both agreed earlier, this functionality is by no means a L requirement of everyone or every application, but it should be mandatory forL a lot more of them than it is today! I'm sure there are plenty of successfulG transactionless systems out there and even with transactions, different L isolation levels can aid concurrency and boost performance if business rulesH allow. No one size fits all. Even fencing-wire and gaffa-tape have their/ place - Just stop telling us it's a Silk Purse!   C >Here is a pointer to some additional RTR info that you can review:   G Yeah, and here's the address of the State Reference Library :-) Come on L Kerry, the Reader's Digest version if you please! Just show me the site thatJ isn't using RTR for Store-and-forward and isn't using DECdtm and I promise to read every bit of it!  A "What does the RTR part of the application do?" and "Why are they  replicating?".  J Can you please also provide us with pointers to the MQSeries testimonials.E Doesn't it have a very useful store-and-forward capability? I believe K MQSeries is also used in one or two sites of note. What is it with your RTR  fettish?   Cheers Richard  G PS. "The best way to replicate data is not at all." - Mark Bradley (Rdb  engineering something or other)   C PPS. Looking at all those sites using RTR filled me with joy in the L knowledge of all of the lovely license dollars that come flowing back to VMSL development. What's that? It's so good a product and in such demand that youI decided to give it away for free? I'm not a business guru and I'm sure it  makes cents?  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageL news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB70CC54@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... > -----Original Message-----: > From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com]! > Sent: November 13, 2005 9:10 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Will Rich Marcello either come clean or do some > proper marketingand  >  > Hi Kerry,  > F > > RTR has the ability to find alternate network routes to complete aE > > transaction. Hence, if one link or router went down, it will find  > > another path.  > ? > OK. If that was the analogy you were making to Tandem's fault  > tolerance then > I misunderstood. > # > > And if they are using true 2PC,  > 8 > And *IF* they are using "true 2PC" then they are using > DECdtm! Even if RTR = > sits on top of it. Let me make something clear the diffence  > between productsH > such as RTR and true transaction managers such as (MTS/DTC, hotTIP and: > DECdtm) is that the later speak directly to the resource > managers (Rdb, SQL5 > Server,10g etc) whereas RTR speaks to your specific  > application code. via ; > SYS$VOTEX (or whatever the name is. It's been a long time  > since I looked at > > it too :-) So for RTR to "work" correctly one must apply the > convention of ? > *only* modifying the data source with RTR-aware applications.  > (Once again, > unless it's using DECdtm)  > = > No one's told Rdb that RTR will be replaying this txn until  > its receipt is< > acknowledged, so Rdb is quite happy to let every bloke and > his dog rape, % > pilage and plunder the target data.  > 4 >  > . . .and the application error handler kicks in > ; > Or, the way I personally like to see it, a combination of  > Resource ManagerG > and Transaction Manager error handling kicks in to guarantee the ACID E > properties of a true two-phase commit, and preserve data integrity.  > : > > Keep in mind that many stock exchanges use this today, > E > Whoopdidoo! And so bloody what? I'll have you know that the top 500 7 > companies in the world all use Post-it notes! Are you  > suggesting that their = > backup strategies involve transcribing the overnight run to  > those little9 > yellow bits of paper? They probably have a lot of Excel  > spreadsheets as > > well, is that also supposed to impress me or have me shaking > in my boots? > < > These types of "Amazon does millions of web transactions a > day! and then < > there's Ebay!" arguments are beneath you Kerry but, sadly, > that's about as = > much science as we get out of Rdb and VMS conferences these  > days when it > comes to web transactions :-(  >   	 Richard -   F I have seen and heard all the Web Services religion discussions. GreatG stuff. It will solve world hunger if only the application developers of C the world would just drop what they are doing and get on board with  either .Net or J2EE.  G In some respects, this Web Services religion is not unlike the "Windows F and Linux are going to take over the world" religion. Lots of passion,+ lots of religion, lots of heated arguments.   E While there certainly is a place for Web Services, the problems I see " with the technology is as follows:  A 1. Regardless of whether you choose .Net or J2EE, both are object F oriented programming languages which means a huge, huge learning curveD for all of those Fortran, Cobol, C, Basic and yes, even Visual BasicB programmers out there. I am sure you know that VB.Net is a totally5 different and totally incompatible language than VB6.   E Yes, tools help, but only to a small degree as a Web Services program E implemented poorly is no different than any other program implemented & poorly - there will be major problems.  F 2. Security with Web Services is only now becoming acceptable for mostH large corporations. The common joke around Web Services is the guy  withH the label "security" on his back chasing the train that has already left the station.  B 3. The benefits of Web Services sharing re-useable code is at bestG theoretical as most large corporations do not work like this. There are D typically many different App development groups and the sad truth isF that they just do not talk to each other - let alone develop long termD application sharing strategies and web services code using UDDI type
 technologies.   H Quick question from the past - ever try and get a common data dictionary implemented in a large company?   E That is the challenge facing web services with all of its benefits of H shared library code. Great in theory and it would be wonderful if it wasF done, but we both know what a pain a common data dictionary was to getF established in any company. The issues are not technical but political and cultural ones.  B 4. Last, but not least, it is possible, but extremely difficult toB integrate web services code with existing code that is running theG business. This is especially true if the existing code does any type of  terminal or screen based IO.  @ By the way, I love the typical answer I have heard about the VB6E developer complaining about the fact that VB.Net is incompatible with G the tons of VB6 code they have in their company - "VB.Net is so easy to D use and has so much more flexibility that you would be better off to- simply re-write all that VB6 code in VB.Net."   7 Now, think about that and consider the previous points.   H Again, I am not saying Web Services does not have a place, but there areG some real challenges facing any company embarking on this new road. One F just needs to fully understand what it is they are getting into before+ they simply drink the kool-aid and jump in.   > > I've never worked at a Stock Exchange but I have worked at a > few banks and H > other prestigious financial institutions in London, and I think I knowH > enough about the finance industry in general, to not hold it up as theG > bastion of best-IT-practice, any more than any other industry. As you ; > alluded to in another note, it all seems to hang together  > betwen twelve and G > two and if anything goes wrong it's just tough-titties! "Tell 'em the 9 > figures are a day old and not to quote anything without  > checking systems a, = > b and c.". But then, the banks have managed expectations to  > such an extent< > that I can xfer GBP in one account to AUD in aother at the > same bank and : > have it take 3 days to get there. And I just take it :-( > Where else can you > get away with shit like that?  >  > > so are you are/ > > stating that you know something they don't?  > > > Maybe. You tell me what *exactly* they're doing with RTR and > I'll be very: > happy to cast a critical eye over it. I for one would be > *very* interested.8 > If they have a store-and-forward or guranteed-delivery > requirement then I'm< > sure that RTR hits the spot nicely. Or maybe BMQ, Tibco or > MQSeries for* > portability. The right tool for the job. >   B Here is a pointer to some additional RTR info that you can review:/ http://www.hp.com/products1/rtr/literature.html   = > > Keep in mind that in many critical cases, you are talking 
 > about using H > > RTR in conjunction with a multi-site OpenVMS cluster with host based; > > volume shadowing, so the data will always be consistent  > between sites. > > > So why do you keep singling out RTR and banging on about how > wonderful *it* > is.   G RTR is a good solution that raises OpenVMS cluster very HA capabilities B to software fault tolerant levels. Hence, even if a cpu dies and aG system crashes, the RTR middleware ensures the committed transaction is 7 re-tried on another system to ensure it gets completed.   	 [snip...]     
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)   4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.636 ************************