1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 25 Nov 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 658       Contents:* Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie* Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie* Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie1 Re: DECpark (Reading, UK) to close after 25 years 1 Re: DECpark (Reading, UK) to close after 25 years 1 Re: DECpark (Reading, UK) to close after 25 years 1 Re: DECpark (Reading, UK) to close after 25 years = Re: Selling Alphaserver 256MB memory modules & other stuff... = Re: Selling Alphaserver 256MB memory modules & other stuff...   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 25 Nov 2005 09:08:22 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)3 Subject: Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie , Message-ID: <4386d486$1@news.langstoeger.at>  q In article <1132874749.400832.280950@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "jfragemann" <jfragemann@hotmail.com> writes: B >Can't wait to get started. Unfortunately it is a bit hard to findH >Alphas here in Europe (Denmark), but I'll just have to keep looking for >a EV56 or EV6...   E Alphas are not that hard to find. Cheap _and_ modern Alphas are hard. B You can have Alphas for 20.- and up (and sometimes even for free).H eg. a DS10 6/600 with 1-2GB and disks for total < 800.- would be fine...I Even better would be a DS15 6/1000 but they are still out of scope (>10k)   I Eg. http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5832401110 is a EV4 D with enough memory (=>not cheap). But you won't like its performanceG (which is enough to learn VMS but IMHO isn't for MOZILLA, JAVA, APACHE)   I Eg. http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5831781651 is a EV6 F with enough CPU/RAM/Disk. But you won't like its power consumption ;-)  	 and so on    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Nov 2005 02:06:24 -0800# From: "H Vlems" <hvlems@freenet.de> 3 Subject: Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie C Message-ID: <1132913184.792139.259920@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Jurgen,   E check Ebay for Digital Server auctions. The Digital Server 3000, 5000 E and 7000 series are equivalent to the AlphaServer 800, 1200 and 4100. F These so called white box Alpha's were intended to run WindowsNT only,D but a small (and easy to apply) software modification makes them runA VMS and Tru64. I have a Digital Server 5305 and it runs VMS 7.3-2 B flawlessly. Since WNT support for Alpha was dropped, the prices ofD these systems have gone down considerably. Of course there's no suchF thing as HP support for VMS on a white box alpha so this solution only works for hobbyist users.    Hans   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Nov 2005 06:08:12 -0800+ From: "jfragemann" <jfragemann@hotmail.com> 3 Subject: Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie B Message-ID: <1132927692.524319.87190@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Hello,   H Vlems wrote:G > check Ebay for Digital Server auctions. The Digital Server 3000, 5000 G > and 7000 series are equivalent to the AlphaServer 800, 1200 and 4100.   D Thanks for the suggestion. I can see that there are a couple on ebay
 right now.  ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D5834413668 ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D5834417436   F Currently, no one seems to be bidding.  Which system would you choose?   A Digital Server 5000  Part number: FR-K8F5W-AA       * Alpha 5/533MHz CPU     * 128MB Memory     * 3 x 4GB SCSI Discs     * Graphics Card      * CDRom      * Floppy Disc    OR   A Digital Server 3000  Part number: FR-K7F4W-WA       * Alpha 500MHz CPU     * 256MB Memory     * 4 x 9GB SCSI Discs     * Mylex Raid Controller      * S3 Graphics Card     * DE500 Ethernet     * CDRom      * Floppy Disc 
     * No O/S?   @ As a newcomer, I have no idea which system is perferrable to runB OpenVMS on. Also, I understand that they would need to be patched.  E Well, "5000" sounds cooler and better, and the enclosure looks nicer, 5 but choosing a system based on that would be lame ;-)   G Thanks for your help guys. I dunno why more people aren't interested in  VMS.   Regards, J=FCrgen    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Nov 2005 02:10:25 -0800# From: "H Vlems" <hvlems@freenet.de> : Subject: Re: DECpark (Reading, UK) to close after 25 yearsC Message-ID: <1132913425.438938.313730@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E I still have a Coral-66 manual. Never saw the compiler itself because . the company decided to use VAX-PASCAL instead.A There's no hobbyist license for Coral-66 by any chance, is there?    Hans   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:11:36 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> : Subject: Re: DECpark (Reading, UK) to close after 25 years( Message-ID: <ops0s0lmzvzgicya@hyrrokkin>  > On 25 Nov 2005 05:47:33 -0800, Ian Miller <ijm@uk2.net> wrote:  I > As far as I'm aware the original DEC CORAL compiler, which probably did 1 > use VCG, has not been available for many years.  > D > However, there is another CORAL compiler implementation for VAX onF > OpenVMS that was originally produced by Systems Designers Limited in3 > the early 1980s; this is still available from EDS 3 > (http://www.swep-eds.com/CORAL/CORAL%20Page.htm).   I Did these two implementations use the same front-end?  I was aware that    thisI offering produced Macro, which is somewhat of a regressive step since VCG H optimized the code so well, that you would be hard-pressed to write moreH efficient code in Macro, than even such a powerful language as PL/I.  Of" course, it makes it more portable. > E > The CORAL compiler is also available on Alpha and will be available  > shortly on Itanium.  > H > These CORAL compilers actually produce VAX Macro. On VAX, the HP MacroH > assembler is used to generate object code. On Alpha (and Itanium), the7 > HP Macro-32 compiler is used to generate object code.  >    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Nov 2005 09:01:26 -0800" From: chris_doran@postmaster.co.uk: Subject: Re: DECpark (Reading, UK) to close after 25 yearsC Message-ID: <1132937397.965103.176800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    Ian Miller wrote: I > As far as I'm aware the original DEC CORAL compiler, which probably did 1 > use VCG, has not been available for many years.  > D > However, there is another CORAL compiler implementation for VAX onF > OpenVMS that was originally produced by Systems Designers Limited in3 > the early 1980s; this is still available from EDS 3 > (http://www.swep-eds.com/CORAL/CORAL%20Page.htm).  > E > The CORAL compiler is also available on Alpha and will be available  > shortly on Itanium.  > H > These CORAL compilers actually produce VAX Macro. On VAX, the HP MacroH > assembler is used to generate object code. On Alpha (and Itanium), the7 > HP Macro-32 compiler is used to generate object code.   G This sounds very like the successor to the "freebie" one we used, which @ was written by Robert Firth (I think) of the UK's Royal MilitaryB College of Science. It was based on a BCPL compiler and written inF BCPL. It produced an intermediate code which was converted to MACRO byA a codegenerator ("COCO"). We got the RSX version free via a local D Ministry of Defence contact, though it was also marketed (along withC some of my bug-fixes :). We had to pay for the VMS one having found B DEC's to be too incompatible. I had plans for writing backends forF microprocessors, but was overruled and we bought the Whitesmiths' ones instead.  D For those who are wondering what all this is about, CORAL was one ofC the languages specified by the UK MoD around the 1980s (I think the F other was RTL-2) for military projects. The US DoD went for Ada, which turned out huge and cumbersome.   D We got into CORAL in the hope of getting military contracts. I don'tC think we ever succeeded in this, but it was a good block-structured E alternative to the then-available FORTRANs. For some reason we didn't C consider Pascal, and C wasn't available from DEC until a lot later. E Access to the DECUS library and SIG tapes was difficult in the UK, as F orders had to go through Switzerland and took for ever, so that option was impracticable.  D Unfortunately, the CORAL designers didn't learn from the mistakes of; Algol, on which it was heavily based, and failed to specify G file/terminal read and write functions, leaving every implementation to A define its own. these were often radically different (compare C's D printf and C++'s cout...). Also, in RMCS CORAL, the keywords were in? upper case and user symbols usually in lower, whereas DEC CORAL @ followed a common Algol convention of putting keywords in singleF quotes. Hence translating from one CORAL dialect to another was a real pain in the proverbial.   G Reverting to DEC; I can't answer the question about the VCG backend, as E I don't know what it is, but I do remember something being said about F DEC FORTRAN being involved somehow in the original RSX implementation; probably just the OTS.   Chris    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 09:23:47 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> : Subject: Re: DECpark (Reading, UK) to close after 25 years( Message-ID: <ops0s3xxapzgicya@hyrrokkin>  D On 25 Nov 2005 09:01:26 -0800, <chris_doran@postmaster.co.uk> wrote:   >  > Ian Miller wrote: J >> As far as I'm aware the original DEC CORAL compiler, which probably did2 >> use VCG, has not been available for many years. >>E >> However, there is another CORAL compiler implementation for VAX on G >> OpenVMS that was originally produced by Systems Designers Limited in 4 >> the early 1980s; this is still available from EDS4 >> (http://www.swep-eds.com/CORAL/CORAL%20Page.htm). >>F >> The CORAL compiler is also available on Alpha and will be available >> shortly on Itanium. >>I >> These CORAL compilers actually produce VAX Macro. On VAX, the HP Macro I >> assembler is used to generate object code. On Alpha (and Itanium), the 8 >> HP Macro-32 compiler is used to generate object code. > I > This sounds very like the successor to the "freebie" one we used, which B > was written by Robert Firth (I think) of the UK's Royal MilitaryD > College of Science. It was based on a BCPL compiler and written inH > BCPL. It produced an intermediate code which was converted to MACRO byC > a codegenerator ("COCO"). We got the RSX version free via a local F > Ministry of Defence contact, though it was also marketed (along withE > some of my bug-fixes :). We had to pay for the VMS one having found D > DEC's to be too incompatible. I had plans for writing backends forH > microprocessors, but was overruled and we bought the Whitesmiths' ones
 > instead. > F > For those who are wondering what all this is about, CORAL was one ofE > the languages specified by the UK MoD around the 1980s (I think the H > other was RTL-2) for military projects. The US DoD went for Ada, which! > turned out huge and cumbersome.  > F > We got into CORAL in the hope of getting military contracts. I don'tE > think we ever succeeded in this, but it was a good block-structured G > alternative to the then-available FORTRANs. For some reason we didn't E > consider Pascal, and C wasn't available from DEC until a lot later. G > Access to the DECUS library and SIG tapes was difficult in the UK, as H > orders had to go through Switzerland and took for ever, so that option > was impracticable. > F > Unfortunately, the CORAL designers didn't learn from the mistakes of= > Algol, on which it was heavily based, and failed to specify I > file/terminal read and write functions, leaving every implementation to C > define its own. these were often radically different (compare C's F > printf and C++'s cout...). Also, in RMCS CORAL, the keywords were inA > upper case and user symbols usually in lower, whereas DEC CORAL B > followed a common Algol convention of putting keywords in singleH > quotes. Hence translating from one CORAL dialect to another was a real > pain in the proverbial.  > I > Reverting to DEC; I can't answer the question about the VCG backend, as G > I don't know what it is, but I do remember something being said about H > DEC FORTRAN being involved somehow in the original RSX implementation; > probably just the OTS.  L VCG was the common backend initially produced for PL/I (and was written in   PL/I) L which later also had front-ends for Pascal, C, Scan, Pearl, and Coral-66.    ItI built an acyclic graph of the program and did a full flow optimization,    staring K the usual suspects, register colouring, Lifetime analysis, etc.  There is    a good book  that describes it Z http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0932376193/103-7387317-0788663?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance Tom  >  > Chris  >    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Nov 2005 02:16:53 -0800# From: "H Vlems" <hvlems@freenet.de> F Subject: Re: Selling Alphaserver 256MB memory modules & other stuff...C Message-ID: <1132913812.993204.295090@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   C Actually, the systems you mention are no longer new nor in the high F performance category. A hobbyist user might be attracted to a DS20 butD if you're in Italy then you've got to sell them dirt cheap otherwiseD shipping will make the deal too exxpensive for (us) hobbyists. 5/500D class Alpha's are big heavy beasts and usually they're given away orC thrown away. I'd have no problem driving to Italy to get a DS20 for : free, but that price wouldn't very much please you, right?E Which is probably why you'll have problems selling these systems at a & price that makes it worth your effort.   Hans   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Nov 2005 07:18:01 -0800 From: vanjkos@gmail.com F Subject: Re: Selling Alphaserver 256MB memory modules & other stuff...A Message-ID: <1132931880.979976.3260@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   8 You're right.:-) But since we passed to Dell's PoweredgeE servers,instead of throwing all this stuff away(and having to pay for > it),i placed them all in my garage.So i would be happy gettingG something for them.At least the ram memory and/or the other small/light  things. D On web sites of companies that sell used/refurbished alpha systems,iC saw that they still give "much" worth for similar configurations to E these that i have.Perhaps i should try on Ebay or somewhere else.Also C because i'd be happy to give something to someone here,but you know D that not all people are honest,i wouldn't like to send something for/ free hehe :-).Thanx for your thoughts Hans.Ciao    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.658 ************************                                                                              oUjO]۾/88ҏ+B[KnZ}YbjCt~sWHgnԸh	Qm+|G!_z'>A?wP!X3Bܟm
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