1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 30 Nov 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 666       Contents:! Re: $GETDVI suggestions requested ! Re: $GETDVI suggestions requested ! Re: $GETDVI suggestions requested ! Re: $GETDVI suggestions requested 7 Re: Announcing: New Tier3 and hotTIP test kit available 7 Re: Announcing: New Tier3 and hotTIP test kit available 7 Re: Announcing: New Tier3 and hotTIP test kit available ' Re: Beginner: nesting DCL command files ' Re: Beginner: nesting DCL command files G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? 4 Re: CSWS PHP 1.3 and GD support (PHP Version 4.3.10)4 Re: CSWS PHP 1.3 and GD support (PHP Version 4.3.10)* Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie* Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie* Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie) Re: DECwindows on a graphics-less machine " Re: DVD writer for a 600au and VMS DVD writer for a 600au and VMS" Re: DVD writer for a 600au and VMS" Re: DVD writer for a 600au and VMS" Re: DVD writer for a 600au and VMS exciting ISSC Conference Re: EXECSYMB on VMS V8.2+ ?  Re: EXECSYMB on VMS V8.2+ ?  Re: EXECSYMB on VMS V8.2+ ?  Re: EXECSYMB on VMS V8.2+ ? / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today $ HTML version of I/O Reference Manual& Re: Java App crashes under user SYSTEM& Re: Java App crashes under user SYSTEM7 Re: Need help: Applying multiple ECO kits and rebooting 6 Performance advisor for OpenVMS, (Computer Associates): Re: Performance advisor for OpenVMS, (Computer Associates): Re: Performance advisor for OpenVMS, (Computer Associates): Re: Performance advisor for OpenVMS, (Computer Associates)& Please Respond - VMS Technical Journal* Re: Please Respond - VMS Technical Journal* Re: Please Respond - VMS Technical JournalD Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactiveK Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive sessio K Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive sessio J Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive session??N Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive session??N Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive session??P Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive session?? sP Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive session?? s& Re: question about set file/attributes& Re: question about set file/attributes& Re: question about set file/attributes" Re: rdb5.1 and fortran date type ? Re: SSH password expiry fixed  Re: System services and DCL 6 VERITAS NetBackup 5.0 MP5 OpenVMS Client now available VMS performance parameters Re: VMS performance parameters Re: VMS performance parameters Re: VMS performance parameters VMS web site bug) Re: Will Oracle RDB 7.0 run on VMS 7.3-1? ) Re: Will Oracle RDB 7.0 run on VMS 7.3-1? ) Re: Will Oracle RDB 7.0 run on VMS 7.3-1? , Re: [ORACLE 10G] Installing on OpenVMS Alpha, Re: [ORACLE 10G] Installing on OpenVMS Alpha, Re: [ORACLE 10G] Installing on OpenVMS Alpha  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 28 Nov 2005 14:34:30 -0600. From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks)* Subject: Re: $GETDVI suggestions requested, Message-ID: <N1rgUGPMi18a@cuebid.zko.hp.com>   "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com> writes:  G > On the other hand, from a purist architectural perspective why in the H > world was the information ever put into SHOW DEVICE output if it's notF > "device" information?  I understand that the information is actuallyA > VOLUME information and not exactly purely DEVICE information.     - Well, there is no $ SHOW VOLUME command . . .   A I believe that it is reasonable to mix the display of device- and M volume-related information, because most of the time (aside from bound-volume L sets, host-based volume shadowing, and software RAID), the device and volumeJ are one and the same (from a user perspective), assuming a mounted device.  F > If it can't be done from $GETDVI, where can it be done from?   If itI > can't be done from a system service routine, can it be done from an RTL B > call?  And can't you then make the information available through' > F$GETDVI or another lexical function?   K The problems with doing it "correctly" from $GETDVI would also exist in any I API, whether it is a system service, run-time library routine, or lexical 	 function.   G > Another rant related to how many times a particular volume is mounted D > -- which probably goes into a new topic:  why is it that if a nodeD > tries to boot into a cluster with a system disk which has the sameF > volume label as a disk that is already mounted somewhere else in theH > cluster that the system crashes with a very cryptic crash symptom that* > leaves you to guess what has happened?    ? You do get a status back of %x7280B4, which translates to . . .    $ exit %x7280B4 @ %MOUNT-F-VOLALRMNT, another volume of same label already mounted   > Why can't the boot sequence F > which has quite a bit of code already loaded by that point just handH > back a nice little message saying the equivalent of "Excuse me but youH > can't boot into the cluster with a disk that has the same volume labelH > as an already mounted different device(giving nodename and device nameF > where the volume is previously mounted)" or "boot device  <offendingC > device>: volume label <offending label> not unique in cluster" or G > something similar?  I don't know if this is still an issue with V8.2, < > but as I recall it was still there with V7.2-2 and V7.3-2.  I I think that is too early in the boot sequence to have loaded the various B message files that contain the text translation of error statuses.   --    L Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 10:20:47 -0600. From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks)* Subject: Re: $GETDVI suggestions requested, Message-ID: <r+91DlLmcTJm@cuebid.zko.hp.com>  4 David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:   > o F$MULTIPATH() I > To the find the AVAILABLE_PATHS_LIST (MPDEV_PATHS_LIST) for each device G > (Seems a fairly simple loop, apparently, and seems it could be easily H > coded into F$GETDVI() (much faster/"cheaper" than doing it DCL ala theG > example shown in HELP Lexical F$MULTIPATH()) so the list of available 5 > paths could be returned as a comma-separated list.)   H $GETDVI does not return any string item in a comma-delimited format, norG are there any plans to do that.  The correct way to return an item that I can have multiple values would be through the use of a context parameter,  allowing for iterative calls.   9 There are no plans to add a context parameter to $GETDVI.   K The use of SYS$DEVICE_PATH_SCAN and F$MULTIPATH is the supported way to get  the list of paths.  E On another front, I am making progress with respect to adding several  LAN device-specific item codes.    --    L Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 07:36:40 -0800$ From: "roger" <rogerntucker@msn.com>* Subject: Re: $GETDVI suggestions requestedC Message-ID: <1133278599.989016.254270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   = GETDVI also needs to be updated to support 64 bit item lists.   2 -------Here is a summary last time I checked------  G Your right, looking at the documenation and 7.1 source code (the latest 2 I have), getdvi() only supports 32 bit item lists.  G getsyi() in routine putdata appears to write a 16 bit value to a 64 bit G item list descriptor. I think this is a bug, although it does match the  documentation.  B getjpi() in routine $write_retlen checks for and writes a quadwordB return length address. This is the only get... system service thatD appears to handle 64 bit item lists with a 64 bit return length, but the documentation is wrong.   = getlki() in routine movit appears to write a longword and the E documenation is also correct. getlki() doesn't appear to allow 64 bit  item lists.   + getqui() doesn't support 64 bit item lists.  Documenation is correct.  G Forgot one, trnlnm() also appears to write a 64 bit return item length, & but the documenation also says a word.  A So in summary, I could only find two system services that seem to C support 64 bit item lists and they handle the return length address  differently.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 10:26:30 -0800 From: "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com>* Subject: Re: $GETDVI suggestions requestedC Message-ID: <1133288790.400602.174750@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Rob Brooks wrote:   > "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com> writes: > C > I believe that it is reasonable to mix the display of device- and O > volume-related information, because most of the time (aside from bound-volume N > sets, host-based volume shadowing, and software RAID), the device and volumeL > are one and the same (from a user perspective), assuming a mounted device.  D I agree -- it just seems that now with enhancements to shadowing andG other aspects of device management there's a whole laundry list of SHOW G options like SHOW SHADOW and others.  I didn't mean to imply it's a bad @ thing -- it just gives the impression at the user level that the8 information is integrated in the system device database. > H > > If it can't be done from $GETDVI, where can it be done from?   If itK > > can't be done from a system service routine, can it be done from an RTL D > > call?  And can't you then make the information available through) > > F$GETDVI or another lexical function?  > M > The problems with doing it "correctly" from $GETDVI would also exist in any K > API, whether it is a system service, run-time library routine, or lexical  > function.   G I gues I'm missing something.  What's the difference in context between F what happens fin an executable image and an RTL routine that is calledC from Supervisor mode(by the DCL interpreter) that would make it any * harder than what SHOW DEVICE already does?   > I > > Another rant related to how many times a particular volume is mounted F > > -- which probably goes into a new topic:  why is it that if a nodeF > > tries to boot into a cluster with a system disk which has the sameH > > volume label as a disk that is already mounted somewhere else in theJ > > cluster that the system crashes with a very cryptic crash symptom that* > > leaves you to guess what has happened? > A > You do get a status back of %x7280B4, which translates to . . .  >  > $ exit %x7280B4 B > %MOUNT-F-VOLALRMNT, another volume of same label already mounted > F The problem with this status code is that when your system is crashingE during boot, it isn't the first thing you think of to run off to find B another system that's up and running to interpret the crash statusG code.  I suppose a completely cool calm and collected person would, but F sometimes in the heat of getting a system back online it would be niceA to get the message spelled out right at the point that the system  decides to punt.  F There must be plenty of message text loaded, because if the 20000 bootG flag is turned on the system dumps out TONS of messages that are coming A from somewhere.  And the crash puts out a text string -- just not E anything about a volume mount problem.  The problem seems to me to be C more of the issue that the boot termination path results in a crash C with a PROCGONE message as was mentioned in another message in this  thread. @ In order to find the status code you refer to it is necessary toE actually crawl into the dump to find it on the stack as I recall from D the last time I failed to recognize the symptoms and called for dump analysis support.    Robert   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 09:41:00 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> @ Subject: Re: Announcing: New Tier3 and hotTIP test kit available1 Message-ID: <dmgcgi$goo$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Ian,    Thanks for doing that.   Cheers Richard Maher.   + "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message = news:1133184132.449822.194050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...  >  > Richard Maher wrote: > L > > Please be advised that Tier3 Software has made available a new Beta-Test kit I > > for Tier3/hotTIP V3.1 for both VAX and Alpha. It is planned that this  willH > > be the final beta release before shipping, so if you are not already testing I > > or evaluating Tier3 at your site then please get in touch and we will  e-mail > > a copy to you ASAP. I > can you supply a web site, email address or something so people can get 
 > in touch >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 09:53:17 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> @ Subject: Re: Announcing: New Tier3 and hotTIP test kit available1 Message-ID: <dmgcgl$goo$2@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Tom,    > Does this use SSL?  E No it's all in-the-clear. If you're looking at Internet as opposed to G Intranet, then I suggest a VPN type setup. When UCX supports IPsec then 4 we'll also see what, if anything, that has to offer.   Regards Richard Maher   . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message" news:ops0yee30rzgicya@hyrrokkin...3 > On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:39:10 +0800, Richard Maher & > <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote: > J > >  Persistent Network Connection. Once accepted, the network connectionK > > between client and communication server is maintained until either your K > > client or your server code asks specifically for it to be dropped. This A > > removes the overhead of having to obtain a channel, request a  connection, J > > and pass authorization, each time a client needs to access your server > > application. >  > Does this use SSL? > Tom    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Nov 2005 21:02:23 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) @ Subject: Re: Announcing: New Tier3 and hotTIP test kit available3 Message-ID: <IRifqvPKhTaV@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <dmgcgl$goo$2@news-02.connect.com.au>, "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes:    >> Does this use SSL?  > G > No it's all in-the-clear. If you're looking at Internet as opposed to , > Intranet, then I suggest a VPN type setup.  B It is a mistake to presume that all threats originate from outside some boundary line.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:10:27 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>0 Subject: Re: Beginner: nesting DCL command files+ Message-ID: <438BB893.25C524AF@comcast.net>    Alder wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:: > > Alder wrote: > > K > >>I've added command files to my SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM file to define various D > >>logicals and symbols and to call other command files that defineF > >>logicals and symbols.  I know the first level of command files getF > >>called, but the second-level command files are not.  Is this to beH > >>expected for some reason?  This is OVMS 7.3-2 and I did RTFM.  Did I0 > >>miss something about nesting DCL procedures? > >> >  > <snip> >  > >  > > # > > I'm kinda stumped on that, too.  > > K > > I have a set of "sysconfig" commands supplied by the application vendor F > > which are invoked from TCPIP$SYSTARTUP.COM *AFTER* the point whereH > > TCPIP$DEFINE_COMMANDS.COM is invoked, and the global symbols are not% > > found resulting in IVVERB errors.  > >  > H > Does JF Mezei's reply to my post apply to your situation?  That is, ifI > TCPIP$DEFINE_COMMANDS is called from SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM then its symbols , > evaporate when the startup procedure ends.  = No. This is a series of DCL proc.'s that get invoked *DURING* F SYSTARTUP_VMS. TCPIP$DEFINE_COMMANDS is supposed to set up the symbols? in the STARTUP process's global symbol table, so that my proc., F TCPIPV5_SETTINGS.COM should be able to use the foreign commands set upE as global symbols. Yet, each executable line in that file produces an E IVVERB error. The proc.'s are invoked, in the sequence mentioned here E during TCPIP$SYSTARTUP.COM which is invoked by TCPIP$STARTUP which is  invoked during SYSTARTUP_VMS.   B ...and yes, before anyone asks - it all works just fine outside of SYSTARTUP_VMS.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:41:08 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>0 Subject: Re: Beginner: nesting DCL command files+ Message-ID: <438D1143.91D92E2D@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote: A > > No. This is a series of DCL proc.'s that get invoked *DURING* J > > SYSTARTUP_VMS. TCPIP$DEFINE_COMMANDS is supposed to set up the symbolsC > > in the STARTUP process's global symbol table, so that my proc., J > > TCPIPV5_SETTINGS.COM should be able to use the foreign commands set upI > > as global symbols. Yet, each executable line in that file produces an  > > IVVERB error.  > # > Are you sure nothing is spawned ?    Yes.   > : > Also, between the TCPIP$DEFINE_SYMBOLS and invoking your< > TCIPV5_SETTINGS, is it possible any intevening code does a > DELETE/SYMBOL/GLOBAL/ALL ?   No.   1 > What you can do in your TCPIPV5_SETTINGS is to:  > I > $IF F$TYPE(TRACEROUTE) .EQS. "" THEN @SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$DEFINE_COMMANDS  >   > And if you're really paranoid: >  > $LOOP:! > $IF F$TYPE(TRACEROUTE) .EQS. ""  > $       THEN4 > $               @SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$DEFINE_COMMANDSO > $               REQUEST "WARNING: TCP$DEFINE_COMMANDS isn't defining commands  > properly, FIX it ASAP" > $               WAIT 00:01:00  > $               GOTO LOOP  > $ENDIF >  > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)   , I may just open a ticket with the CSC on it.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:31:45 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???( Message-ID: <ops0y167vjzgicya@hyrrokkin>  . On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:28:23 -0500, JF Mezei  % <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:   J > You can trust the first received: header. It is added by your system andJ > contains the IP of the sending system. vYou can trust but don't bet yourF > life on it. (the IP can be forged, but I doubt spammers obother withG > this since their prefered method is simply to use an infected machine - > somewhere on the net to do the dirty work).   G A lot of those I have checked are forged, which makes it increasingly   	 difficult . to filter without examing the body of the text   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:44:56 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???( Message-ID: <ops0y5k6h3zgicya@hyrrokkin>  . On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:53:48 -0500, JF Mezei  % <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:    > Tom Linden wrote: H >> A lot of those I have checked are forged, which makes it increasingly >> difficult1 >> to filter without examing the body of the text  > D > Are you sure the IPs of the sending server (in the first Received:G > header created by your server) is forged ? I was under the impression F > that it is just rogue bots running coverting in infected widnows PCs > that send out spam.   D I don't know enough about it to properly respond, but I think I haveI added rejection rules base on first IP in RECEIVED field  and subsquently E gotten spam.  How is this IP made known to the receiving SMTP server?    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:04:34 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???( Message-ID: <ops0y89wxpzgicya@hyrrokkin>  . On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:05:39 -0500, JF Mezei  % <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:    > Tom Linden wrote: G >> I don't know enough about it to properly respond, but I think I have B >> added rejection rules base on first IP in RECEIVED field  and   >> subsquentlyH >> gotten spam.  How is this IP made known to the receiving SMTP server? > G > Part of the TCPIP call establishement process involves exchange of IP H > adresses. So the SMTP Receiver knows, from the VMS TCPIP stack, the IPI > address of the calling party.  It is this IP which is used to build the J > Received: header line at the top, as well as checking whether that IP is > blocked or part of an RBL.  F But is it not correct to asser that the SMTP receiver doesn't know forG certain that the message actually cam from that IP, since there is no   
 handshake. > E > Spoofing that IP requires the sender make some pretty hefty work to " > forge his IP at the TCPIP level.  J Well considering that some trojan horses for Windows servers install theirJ own SMTP server, I would say that they have the skills, the motive and the opportunity:-)   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Nov 2005 03:13:57 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???, Message-ID: <3v1vbkF13oahlU1@individual.net>  ( In article <ops0y89wxpzgicya@hyrrokkin>,& 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:0 > On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:05:39 -0500, JF Mezei  ' > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:  >  >> Tom Linden wrote:H >>> I don't know enough about it to properly respond, but I think I haveC >>> added rejection rules base on first IP in RECEIVED field  and    >>> subsquently I >>> gotten spam.  How is this IP made known to the receiving SMTP server?  >>H >> Part of the TCPIP call establishement process involves exchange of IPI >> adresses. So the SMTP Receiver knows, from the VMS TCPIP stack, the IP J >> address of the calling party.  It is this IP which is used to build theK >> Received: header line at the top, as well as checking whether that IP is  >> blocked or part of an RBL.  > H > But is it not correct to asser that the SMTP receiver doesn't know forI > certain that the message actually cam from that IP, since there is no    > handshake.  @ No, SMTP uses TCP not UDP.  There most certainly is a handshake.   >>F >> Spoofing that IP requires the sender make some pretty hefty work to# >> forge his IP at the TCPIP level.  > L > Well considering that some trojan horses for Windows servers install theirL > own SMTP server, I would say that they have the skills, the motive and the > opportunity:-) >   F Writing an SMTP server capable of sending out SPAM is trivial.  PeopleH used to send forged mail using TELNET to port 25 just for grins.  That'sI how trivial the protocol really is.  In most cases the SPAMMER just grabs 9 an already written one from the net and adds his payload.   H The best first steps to eliminating SPAM are to not accept anything fromG dialup connections (using DNSBL's) and refusing to accept any mail from E a site where the HELO and the DNS don't match.  Why trust someone who  lies about who they are?   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 06:04:45 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???( Message-ID: <ops0z9d7y0zgicya@hyrrokkin>  . On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:17:39 -0500, JF Mezei  % <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:    > Bob Armstrong wrote:I >>   I occasionally (a few times a week or so) get attempts to relay thru I >> my server with an apparent source IP of 127.0.0.1!  And no, it's not a  >> worm on my VAX... > H > When you say "apparent source IP", what do you mean ? You see messagesH > on opcom about emails being rejected based on IPs ? Or you are looking > at RFC822 headers ?  >  > D >> 192.168/16, 172.16/12, etc.  I'm a little amazed that the routersH >> upstream from me pass traffic from 127.0.0.1, but apparently they do. > H > If within your own ISP, it is common. Many ISPs use unroutable IPs forH > some of their router infrasctructure within their intranet. This makesG > then unaccessible from the outside world. But it also allows customer 8 > traffic of unroutable IPs to flow within the intranet.  = The router sees them differently, here is a snippet from mine   G 5d04h: %SEC-6-IPACCESSLOGP: list 101 permitted udp 206.55.237.3(0) ->    xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx(0), 26 packetsH 5d04h: %SEC-6-IPACCESSLOGP: list 101 permitted tcp 218.235.34.69(0) ->   xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx(0), 10 packetsH 5d04h: %SEC-6-IPACCESSLOGRP: list 101 permitted ospf 206.55.246.109 ->   224.0.0.5, 30 packets    where I masked my ip,   J If you watch these you will see a lot of tcp traffic probing the ip's on  	 your site    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:19:51 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???, Message-ID: <438B827F.A38138FF@teksavvy.com>   Bob Armstrong wrote:I >   The only option I seem to have right now is to use some rather severe F > RBLs, which stop a lot of the SPAM from arriving in the first place.F > Unfortunately I'm finding that a fair amount of legitimate mail gets > rejected too.     G Another option is to use s 3rd party spam filtering. Tucows offers such E a service.  I runs under emaildefenseservice.com But not sure if what # the actual URL to find out more is.   F Basically, you point your MX to them. They get the inbound mail, checkJ for spam and if it passes, the mail is then forwarded to your SMTP server.  D Obviously, that service can't check for undeliverable emails. But it does filter out spam.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:21:59 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???, Message-ID: <438B82FF.1C3442D0@teksavvy.com>   Bob Armstrong wrote: > B > >Some use additional reasons, such as making excessive attempts. > G >   The plan I like the best, which some SMTP servers now do, is simply I > to introduce steadily increasing delays before the response.  Just kill  > the SPAMmer's thruput :-)  > E >   It's moot, though - I don't think UCX can do any of these things.     @ Yes, UCX can do this....if you run it on a Microvax II ..... :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:28:23 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???, Message-ID: <438B847E.C2953C80@teksavvy.com>   Tom Linden wrote: J > Indeed, if you examine the 822 headers from these guys, none of it is to > be believed.  H You can trust the first received: header. It is added by your system andH contains the IP of the sending system. vYou can trust but don't bet yourD life on it. (the IP can be forged, but I doubt spammers obother withE this since their prefered method is simply to use an infected machine + somewhere on the net to do the dirty work).    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:53:48 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???, Message-ID: <438B8A72.4BE1DD0B@teksavvy.com>   Tom Linden wrote: G > A lot of those I have checked are forged, which makes it increasingly  > difficult 0 > to filter without examing the body of the text  B Are you sure the IPs of the sending server (in the first Received:E header created by your server) is forged ? I was under the impression D that it is just rogue bots running coverting in infected widnows PCs that send out spam.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:05:39 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???, Message-ID: <438BA952.DEA9BF38@teksavvy.com>   Tom Linden wrote: F > I don't know enough about it to properly respond, but I think I haveK > added rejection rules base on first IP in RECEIVED field  and subsquently G > gotten spam.  How is this IP made known to the receiving SMTP server?   E Part of the TCPIP call establishement process involves exchange of IP F adresses. So the SMTP Receiver knows, from the VMS TCPIP stack, the IPG address of the calling party.  It is this IP which is used to build the H Received: header line at the top, as well as checking whether that IP is blocked or part of an RBL.  C Spoofing that IP requires the sender make some pretty hefty work to   forge his IP at the TCPIP level.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:29:22 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???, Message-ID: <438BBCED.950B95A4@teksavvy.com>   Tom Linden wrote: H > But is it not correct to asser that the SMTP receiver doesn't know forG > certain that the message actually cam from that IP, since there is no  > handshake.  G Correct. But you came fairly safely assume that it is that IP which has G connected to your server.  Any server that does not originate the EMAIL J and allows "foreigners" to relay spam through it should be banned anyways.    L > Well considering that some trojan horses for Windows servers install theirL > own SMTP server, I would say that they have the skills, the motive and the > opportunity:-)  E But then the onwer of the infected computer would not be able to surf A the net if its IP stack were conpromised and spoofed various IPs.   C Also, if you are using infected PCs as spam bots, you don't need to D forge the IP since you're using IPs of "innocent" bystanders who are running Windows.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Nov 2005 19:55:07 -0800$ From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob@jfcl.com>P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???C Message-ID: <1133236507.269742.118080@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    John Malmberg wrote:  , >Forging TCP source I.P. values requires ...  E   Difficult or not, there are plenty of SPAMmers out there that forge D source IP addresses.  Here's just one SPAM package that claims to do it:   2     http://www.codecomments.com/message316678.html  F   I occasionally (a few times a week or so) get attempts to relay thruF my server with an apparent source IP of 127.0.0.1!  And no, it's not a worm on my VAX...   G   If you haven't done it already, you should make sure that your router F or gateway drops any incoming packets with sending IPs of 127/8, 10/8,A 192.168/16, 172.16/12, etc.  I'm a little amazed that the routers E upstream from me pass traffic from 127.0.0.1, but apparently they do.    Bob    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:17:39 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???, Message-ID: <438BF262.FE2C2E97@teksavvy.com>   Bob Armstrong wrote:H >   I occasionally (a few times a week or so) get attempts to relay thruH > my server with an apparent source IP of 127.0.0.1!  And no, it's not a > worm on my VAX...   F When you say "apparent source IP", what do you mean ? You see messagesF on opcom about emails being rejected based on IPs ? Or you are looking at RFC822 headers ?     C > 192.168/16, 172.16/12, etc.  I'm a little amazed that the routers G > upstream from me pass traffic from 127.0.0.1, but apparently they do.   F If within your own ISP, it is common. Many ISPs use unroutable IPs forF some of their router infrasctructure within their intranet. This makesE then unaccessible from the outside world. But it also allows customer 6 traffic of unroutable IPs to flow within the intranet.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 09:34:23 -0800$ From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob@jfcl.com>P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???B Message-ID: <1133285663.194500.48050@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  6 >When you say "apparent source IP", what do you mean ?  2   It's the IP reported by OPCOM in the log message  0     "INTERnet ACP SMTP Accept Request from ...."   Bob    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:45:08 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???, Message-ID: <438CBDD2.8137B9DE@teksavvy.com>   Bob Armstrong wrote: > 8 > >When you say "apparent source IP", what do you mean ? > 4 >   It's the IP reported by OPCOM in the log message > 2 >     "INTERnet ACP SMTP Accept Request from ...."  < OK, then this is the "trusted" IP from the TCPIP connection.   If it is an unroutable IP '         		    10.0.0.0 - 10.255.255.255 /                     172.16.0.0 - 172.31.255.255 1                     192.168.0.0 - 192.168.255.255   F Then it is likely coming from "nearby" within your ISP. YOu can try toF traceroute to that IP to see how far it gets you before the traceroute> fails. At one point, you will hit a router that will block it.    B Question: if an IP is spoofed, can a TCPIP connection actually getF established to the point where the TCPIP  ACP issues the OPCOM messageG indicating there're an incoming call to port 25 ?  Or would the lack of B bi-directional communications stop the process of establishing the2 communicatiosn before the ACP issues the message ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:47:24 -0500 ) From: "Rick Barry" <richard.barry@hp.com> = Subject: Re: CSWS PHP 1.3 and GD support (PHP Version 4.3.10) , Message-ID: <438b7aed$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  H We're looking into it. It appears to be a glitch where not enough of the: graphics options were enabled when we built the extension.  
 Rick Barry OpenmVMS Engineering Hewlett-Packard Company   7 "Mark Daniel" <mark.daniel@vsm.com.au> wrote in message ) news:4388084d$1@duster.adelaide.on.net...  > Peter Weaver wrote: ; > > "Mark Daniel" <mark.daniel@vsm.com.au> wrote in message - > > news:43875cea$1@duster.adelaide.on.net...  > > A > >>If my reporting utility is correct this seems rather limited:  > >> > >>     * GD support: yes$ > >>     * GD Version: 2.0 or higher > >>     * FreeType Support: no  > >>     * T1Lib Support: no > >>     * GIF Read Support: no ! > >>     * GIF Create Support: no  > >>     * JPG Support: no > >>     * PNG Support: no > >>     * WBMP Support: no  > >>     * XBM Support: no/ > >>     * JIS-mapped Japanese Font Support: no  > >>...  > >  > > C > > Thank you, I posted the same thing on the VAMP board but nobody 	 responded  > J > I think with a small community such as that supporting VMS that it is inF > that communitys own interest to try and consolidate its resources as > much as possible.  > $ > The reverse seems to be happening.5 > VAMP, HPs ITRC, c.o.v., private BBSs, and so forth.  > J > I have also posted this to the ITRC.  Not that it has a better interfaceC > than c.o.v. (far from  it), just because the s/n ratio is better.  > 7 > Pity about the public USENET.  Just my AU$0.05 worth.  > L > > with either yes or no, so I started wondering if it was just me. I triedD > > recompiling PHP_GD using HAVE_LIBJPEG, it compiles with just one Information D > > error, but GD_INFO() reports the same thing. If I recompile withL > > HAVE_LIBFREETYPE I get a lot of errors in GDFT.C and PHP_GD doesn't evenJ > > load. Not being a C programmer I'm not sure how to fix all the errors. BTW:J > > I have recompiled with the default HAVE_* and PHP_GD works the same as the @ > > original version, so I assume my build procedure is correct.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:57:04 +1030 * From: Mark Daniel <mark.daniel@vsm.com.au>= Subject: Re: CSWS PHP 1.3 and GD support (PHP Version 4.3.10) - Message-ID: <438bfdd6@duster.adelaide.on.net>   ? Thanks for the FYI Rick.  There's also some discussion in ITRC.    Rick Barry wrote: J > We're looking into it. It appears to be a glitch where not enough of the< > graphics options were enabled when we built the extension. >  > Rick Barry > OpenmVMS Engineering > Hewlett-Packard Company  > 9 > "Mark Daniel" <mark.daniel@vsm.com.au> wrote in message + > news:4388084d$1@duster.adelaide.on.net...  >  >>Peter Weaver wrote:  >>: >>>"Mark Daniel" <mark.daniel@vsm.com.au> wrote in message, >>>news:43875cea$1@duster.adelaide.on.net... >>>  >>> A >>>>If my reporting utility is correct this seems rather limited:  >>>> >>>>    * GD support: yes # >>>>    * GD Version: 2.0 or higher  >>>>    * FreeType Support: no >>>>    * T1Lib Support: no  >>>>    * GIF Read Support: no  >>>>    * GIF Create Support: no >>>>    * JPG Support: no  >>>>    * PNG Support: no  >>>>    * WBMP Support: no >>>>    * XBM Support: no . >>>>    * JIS-mapped Japanese Font Support: no >>>>...  >>>  >>> B >>>Thank you, I posted the same thing on the VAMP board but nobody >  > responded  > J >>I think with a small community such as that supporting VMS that it is inF >>that communitys own interest to try and consolidate its resources as >>much as possible.  >>$ >>The reverse seems to be happening.5 >>VAMP, HPs ITRC, c.o.v., private BBSs, and so forth.  >>J >>I have also posted this to the ITRC.  Not that it has a better interfaceC >>than c.o.v. (far from  it), just because the s/n ratio is better.  >>7 >>Pity about the public USENET.  Just my AU$0.05 worth.  >> >>K >>>with either yes or no, so I started wondering if it was just me. I tried C >>>recompiling PHP_GD using HAVE_LIBJPEG, it compiles with just one  > 
 > Information  > C >>>error, but GD_INFO() reports the same thing. If I recompile with K >>>HAVE_LIBFREETYPE I get a lot of errors in GDFT.C and PHP_GD doesn't even I >>>load. Not being a C programmer I'm not sure how to fix all the errors.  >  > BTW: > I >>>I have recompiled with the default HAVE_* and PHP_GD works the same as  >  > the  > ? >>>original version, so I assume my build procedure is correct.  >  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 10:35:11 -0800+ From: "jfragemann" <jfragemann@hotmail.com> 3 Subject: Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie C Message-ID: <1133289310.987055.170270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Thanks for the suggestions!   D I'll check out his emulator. Seems to be the cheapest way of getting started.  ) Can I have it run DECwindows as well? :-)   A A Alphastation 500/500 with 256MB RAM went for US $258.00 on ebay - recently, to me it seems a fair price though.    Regards, J=FCrgen    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:50:08 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 3 Subject: Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie 0 Message-ID: <11opto6erv5fted@corp.supernews.com>   jfragemann wrote:  > Thanks for the suggestions!  > F > I'll check out his emulator. Seems to be the cheapest way of getting
 > started. > + > Can I have it run DECwindows as well? :-)  > C > A Alphastation 500/500 with 256MB RAM went for US $258.00 on ebay / > recently, to me it seems a fair price though.  >  > Regards, Jrgen  >   D David Turner may have some DS10L systems available near that price. G That would get you an EV6.  Not many PCI slots though, and no Ethernet   on the motherboard, I think.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 18:15:58 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> 3 Subject: Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie C Message-ID: <1133316958.293791.282150@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Dave Froble wrote: > jfragemann wrote:   E > > A Alphastation 500/500 with 256MB RAM went for US $258.00 on ebay 1 > > recently, to me it seems a fair price though.  > >  > > Regards, J=FCrgen  > >  > E > David Turner may have some DS10L systems available near that price. H > That would get you an EV6.  Not many PCI slots though, and no Ethernet > on the motherboard, I think.  F What you don't get is video.  The DS10L has one PCI slot.  No on-boardC video but two DE600 ethernet ports.  You have a choice of using the D lone PCI for a video card or for a SCSI card for storage. If you optF for video then your only storage option is the on-board IDE and eitherC a 10GB or 30GB drive (standard choices - probably other sizes would F work but no guarantees).  If you go with the SCSI card in the PCI slotC then what you need to do is use an X-window connection from another G system for video (or the serial console port).  On my XP1000 I replaced @ the IDE CD-ROM with a SCSI CD because the IDE was dog-slow (evenE compared to a 12x RRD46!).  The DS10L IDE interface should be a newer D design and hopefully faster, but I would be wary unless someone saysG it's reasonably fast.  You can get a combo card that has video and SCSI G but even from Island it's around $900 so it's pretty pricey.  The DS10L ; is nice, but there are some trade-offs to be aware of. That F Alphastation 500/500 wouldn't be too bad. It's an EV56 and people haveF said the Java performance isn't too hot but everything else should runB okay. I have several EV56's in the 500/533 MHZ speed and they workE nice.  I haven't gotten into the newer things like Java, PHP, etc yet  though.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:25:03 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com 2 Subject: Re: DECwindows on a graphics-less machine- Message-ID: <87d5klvu1s.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:   D > If I have a server that is without graphics card, is there a magicF > incantation during startup to cause DECwindows software to started /I > INSTALLed, but no X-server started ? (since there is no graphics head).    It is called STARTUP...   A > Essentially, I'd like to be able to do SET DISPLAY and run decw L > applications on that graphics-less node to be  displayed on a workstation.  F > I had once tried this on my all mightly Microvax II, but the startupB > procedure complained bitterly about a missing graphics card, andD > subsequent SET DISPLAY complains about a no-such-device available.  E > Is it just a question of manually doing a SYSGEN CONNECT command to # > create the WSA0 template device ?    Set DISPLAY/CREATE/ ....  A The CREATE is essential. Rest of the fruit to suit network etc...    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 06:14:42 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> + Subject: Re: DVD writer for a 600au and VMS ( Message-ID: <ops0z9usjezgicya@hyrrokkin>  8 On 29 Nov 2005 13:16:41 +0100, Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann  , <vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de> wrote:   > E > In article <87oe43g5fr.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, prep@prep.synonet.com 	 > writes: * >> Anyone got any recomendations/warnings? >> >> -- ? >> Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd., : >> +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.B >>                                             West Australia 6076- >> comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot 1 >> Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. I >> EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.  >>
 > Hi Paul, > ; > The best drive you can buy at the moment: HP (!) dvd840i:  > H > Burns all DVD media (DVD-R(W), DVD+R(W), DVD-R DL, DVD+R DL, DVD-RAM), > burns CD-R(W), too.  > J > And if you want to get the software that supports all that: use DVDwrite > (VAX,Alpha,I64)  > (150 Euro): www.dvdwrite.de   F Does your software support the Lightscribe function?  I looked at HP's: data sheet, no mention of interface, so i assume not scsi?   > 	 > regards 
 > Eberhard   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:38:00 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com ' Subject: DVD writer for a 600au and VMS - Message-ID: <87oe43g5fr.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ' Anyone got any recomendations/warnings?    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 11:43:51 -0800 From: sean@obanion.us + Subject: Re: DVD writer for a 600au and VMS B Message-ID: <1133293431.801578.33310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  @ Do you know if VMS can boot from this drive, with or without the SCSI-IDE interface?      Sean   Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote:H > In article <ops0z9usjezgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>	 > writes: 9 > >On 29 Nov 2005 13:16:41 +0100, Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann / > ><vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de> wrote:  > >  > >>H > >> In article <87oe43g5fr.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, prep@prep.synonet.com > >> writes:- > >>> Anyone got any recomendations/warnings?  > >>>  > >>> --B > >>> Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,= > >>> +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. E > >>>                                             West Australia 6076 0 > >>> comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot4 > >>> Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.L > >>> EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. > >>> 
 > >> Hi Paul,  > >>> > >> The best drive you can buy at the moment: HP (!) dvd840i: > >>K > >> Burns all DVD media (DVD-R(W), DVD+R(W), DVD-R DL, DVD+R DL, DVD-RAM),  > >> burns CD-R(W), too. > >>D > >> And if you want to get the software that supports all that: use > >DVDwrite  > >> (VAX,Alpha,I64)  > >> (150 Euro): www.dvdwrite.de > > I > >Does your software support the Lightscribe function?  I looked at HP's = > >data sheet, no mention of interface, so i assume not scsi?  > G > If you need a SCSI solution you have to buy a ACARD SCSI-IDE-adapter. F > This is a supported configuration for DVDwrite. Lightscribe is underG > investigation. Remember that there is no Win98/WinNT/linux support of K > Lightscribe and who writes the image editor that is needed to design your  > own label? > 
 > eberhard > F > PS: As an present (Xmas comes.) I will release a "freeware" DVDwrite	 > version F > (CD-R + DVD+R only support). It gets the full version, if you have a
 > DVDwrite > license. So stay tuned. D > ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ---------------------< > For a secure high performance FTP using SSL/TLS encryption > upgrade to SurgeFTP D > ----  See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgeftp.htm  ----   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 12:09:05 -0800 From: sean@obanion.us + Subject: Re: DVD writer for a 600au and VMS C Message-ID: <1133294945.692622.242140@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   > I'm finding the 640i and 740i for sale in the US, but no 840i.0 HP has the 640i for about $90 as a special sale.  9 What key features should we look at for DVDwrite support?      Sean   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 04:53:35 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com + Subject: Re: DVD writer for a 600au and VMS - Message-ID: <871x0z9nw0.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   E vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) writes:   ; > The best drive you can buy at the moment: HP (!) dvd840i:   H > Burns all DVD media (DVD-R(W), DVD+R(W), DVD-R DL, DVD+R DL, DVD-RAM), > burns CD-R(W), too.   I Can it output the error stats on a disk, both pre and post the correction  stages?   J > And if you want to get the software that supports all that: use DVDwrite > (VAX,Alpha,I64)  > (150 Euro): www.dvdwrite.de    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:07:43 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ! Subject: exciting ISSC Conference ( Message-ID: <ops0yvi5wezgicya@hyrrokkin>   FYI    EE Times: Latest News " CMOS, biochips to share ISSCC bill   	 
 Ron Wilson	 	  EE Times (11/28/2005 10:00 AM EST) 	    	   C San Francisco — The annual preview of coming attractions at the   L International Solid-State Circuits Conference, slated for today, will show  D a confab vastly changed from the days of ISSCC's singular focus on  0 microprocessor speeds and memory-chip densities.  G The record number of papers that will once again be presented at this   K landmark event, to be held here Feb. 5 to 9, will again topple records in   E chip density, performance and sophistication. But amid the sound of   L shattering records are more subtle themes: gradual shifts in architectural  J thinking, the quiet emergence of entirely new technologies in bioscience  C and organic circuits and the incredible continuity of silicon CMOS.   D The CMOS theme will be sounded in the first keynote of the plenary  I session, when IBM fellow Tze-Chiang Chen will suggest that, contrary to   I the hype, CMOS will continue to serve the industry for at least another   J decade. Chen will cite problems that come with that longevity, including  L the much-discussed issues of power dissipation and process variations, but  H will conclude that CMOS designers will find ways — from new tools to  ; self-healing, self-biasing circuits — to deliver systems.   J Hermann Eul, member of the management board at Infineon Technologies AG,  J and Ken Kutaragi, president and CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment, will  N take up the same theme — Eul from the perspective of mobile multimedia and  0 Kutaragi from that of interactive entertainment.  K But the real fun, as always, will come in the technical sessions. Perhaps   H the most clear-cut signal of change at the conference will come in the  L processor section. It has been widely discussed — ever since Intel Corp.  M made it acceptable to say so in public — that the pursuit of uniprocessor   F performance is at an end. And this year, for the first time in ISSCC  K history, no single-core processors will be presented. Papers range from a   I dual-core Intel Xeon CPU to a RISC-based networking system-on-chip from    Cavium Networks with 16 cores.  D This is not to say that developers have given up on performance. A  G subsequent session will describe building blocks for future processor   G cores, including a speed-leading 9-GHz integer execution unit for the   G Pentium 4 architecture and a 10.1-GHz register file, both from Intel.   A Significantly, both designs are in 65-nanometer CMOS. Even more   D significantly, the register file is specifically architected to be  ) resistant to expected process variations.   K Variation resistance is just one of the strategies that will be discussed   F for dealing with the growing design and operational problems at fine  I geometries. A paper from Philips, for example, will describe an on-chip   J network of sensors — for voltage, temperature and signal integrity —  J linked by a scan chain to give near-real-time operating data on specific  H sites on a packaged chip. While the architecture is intended for debug  C purposes, it is easy to project its use for real-time performance   9 optimization on chips that, if run open-loop, would fail.   I Nor will the problems of huge multicore chips in advanced geometries be   F limited to temperature, voltage and process variations. The enormous  I appetite for data and instructions aggregated from those processors has   L exceeded the abilities of conventional memory and interconnect ideas, as a   number of papers will indicate.   F To aid in meeting the demand, on-chip Level 2 caches have grown into  J multimegabyte monsters. And in one case, the design includes a 16-Mbyte,  % 16-way set-associative L3 on the die.   L At those speeds, I/O is clearly a problem as well. A Sun Microsystems Inc.  J eight-core Sparc design includes four DDR2 DRAM controllers in an effort  G to keep the beasts fed. At the system level, the problem will be even   G worse. The scale of the communications issue will be illustrated by a   D Fujitsu paper describing how a 1.333-Gbit/second I/O pin design is  I incorporated into a 10-chip backplane interconnect crossbar to yield an   . aggregate throughput in excess of 1 terabit/s.  K If digital design is looking to more cores and faster everything, equally   K important moves are taking place in other areas. Data converters continue   K their gains in performance, and flash memory shows continually increasing    density.  H In one paper, one of the alternatives to traditional flash, multilevel  I nitrided read-only memory, or NROM, has been used by Israeli technology   A developer Saifun Semiconductors Ltd. and memory vendor Macronix   I International Co. Ltd. to produce a 4-bit/cell, 1-Gbit flash device for    data storage applications.  E Meanwhile, ISSCC will host a surprisingly well-populated session on   H organic devices. Other papers will describe the progress being made in  M printing important circuit building blocks — including whole CPUs, analog   I signal-processing elements and SRAMs — on flexible substrates. In one   C case, a 13.56-MHz RFID transponder has been printed on an organic   
 substrate.  K In bioelectronics, one remarkable example is a flip-chip combination of a   J mixed-signal ASIC and an electrode array intended to be implanted in the  I inner ears of guinea pigs. The ASIC communicates with the outside world   D and draws power via a wireless interface. It relays signals to the  J electrode chip, which directly stimulates the animal's auditory nerve. A  J denser device could potentially be used for hearing-impaired humans. Two  J papers each will describe DNA recognition chips, retinal-implant ICs and   biosignal acquisition chips.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:41:31 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: Re: EXECSYMB on VMS V8.2+ ?( Message-ID: <ops0zdrhlkzgicya@hyrrokkin>  6 On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:17:34 -0600, David J Dachtera  " <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:  G > How 'bout getting yourself an account on HP's "TestDrive" cluster and I > building it there? They have Alpha and Itanics in that cluster with all - > the compilers fully licensed and available.   - That's odd, I know we supplied a PLI license.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:17:34 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>$ Subject: Re: EXECSYMB on VMS V8.2+ ?+ Message-ID: <438BBA3E.D310A3EA@comcast.net>    Rich Jordan wrote: > H > Has anyone installed and run Execsymb from the freeware kits on a V8.2F > Alpha system, or built it to run on a V8.2+ itanic?  Any problems orE > issues?  We don't have a V8 system yet but I need to verify if some G > Execsymb queues will continue to work if a current system is upgraded  > or replaced by an itanic.  >  > Thanks for any info.   The info on "FILESERV"? (http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?EXECSYMB) 7 indicates the source languages are Fortran and MACRO32.   E How 'bout getting yourself an account on HP's "TestDrive" cluster and G building it there? They have Alpha and Itanics in that cluster with all + the compilers fully licensed and available.    From td183.testdrive.hp.com:   TD183::DJESYS$ @shclu   >  OpenVMS Cluster founded on Friday, 21-OCT-2005 at 09:15:29.23?  by System Id 0000FFFF; Membership: 6, Total Votes: 2, Quorum:2   9 Node      System             O/S  Arch  O/S      Hardware 5 Name        Id      CSID     Name Name  Vers     Name G SPE180   0000FFFF 00010001 - VMS  Alpha V8.2     AlphaServer ES45 Model  2 ; TD183    000004B7 00010002 - VMS  IA64  V8.2     HP rx1620   (1.60GHz/3.0MB) E SPE202   0000FFFE 00010003 - VMS  Alpha V8.2     AlphaServer DS10 466  MHz A TD181    000004B5 00010004 - VMS  Alpha V8.2     AlphaServer ES40 A TD182    000004B6 00010005 - VMS  Alpha V8.2     AlphaServer ES40 C TD237    000004ED 00010008 - VMS  Alpha V7.3-2   COMPAQ AlphaServer 
 DS20E 666 MHz    TD183::DJESYS$ sh lic    Active licenses on node TD183:  > ------- Product ID --------    ---- Rating ----- -- Version --C Product            Producer    Units PPL   Activ Version Release     Termination C DFBROADCAST        DFTN           50  1     0      0.0  (none)       (none)      C DFCORE             DFTN           50  1     0      0.0  (none)       (none)      D ACMS               HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D ACMS-REM           HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D ACMS-RT            HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D BASIC              HP              0  0     1      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D C                  HP              0  0     1      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D COBOL              HP              0  0     1      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D COBOL-USER         HP             50  1     0      0.0  (none)       6-FEB-2006  D CXX-V              HP              0  0     1      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D DCE-APP-DEV        HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D DCE-CDS            HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D DCE-SECURITY       HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D DFG                HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D DFS                HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D DQS                HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D DTR                HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D DVNETEXT           HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D FMS                HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D FORMS              HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D FORMS-RT           HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D FORTRAN            HP              0  0     1      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D GKS                HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D GKS-RT             HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D OPENVMS-I64-MCOE   HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D PASCAL             HP              0  0     1      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D RTR-CL             HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D RTR-SVR            HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D SAVE-SET-MANAGER   HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D SLS                HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D SLS-REMOTE         HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D VAXSET             HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006  D X25                HP              0  1     0      0.0  (none)       1-MAY-2006     --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Nov 2005 18:32:24 -0800/ From: "David B Sneddon" <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> $ Subject: Re: EXECSYMB on VMS V8.2+ ?B Message-ID: <1133231544.787657.96250@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Rich,   F I just downloaded this and built it on an Alpha V8.2 and Itanium V8.2.2 The only message it generated was the following...   gizmo_LTA5005> @execsymb.bld           CALL DATE(CDATE) .............^F %I, Two-digit year return value may cause problems with the year 2000. Use DATE _AND_TIME instead   [DATE] at line number 2599 in file 0 SYSPROG:[DSNEDDON.SOURCE.EXECSYMB]execsymb.for;1     gizmo_LTA5005> @execsymb.link   @ I have NOT tried running it, but given that it built OK there is* probably a fair chance that it will run...   Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 12:21:17 -0800( From: "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com>$ Subject: Re: EXECSYMB on VMS V8.2+ ?C Message-ID: <1133295677.015825.173410@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Dave, E      thanks for the info.  It will probably be next week before I can F get a test system up; we'll try it then to be sure, but the successful$ compilation is at least a good sign.   Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:39:23 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <438BB14A.E81E318B@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > AEF wrote: > > > [much snippage]  > = > Sorry, I jumped the gun on the post button before snipping!  > = > > > Principles have the problem of unintended consequences.  > > : > > I'm sure the same can be said of a lack of principles. > > K > > All forms of "limits" have "unintended consequences". One paradigm that H > > most here can related to is the environment imposed by a programmingG > > language or operating environment: one learns to operate within the J > > limits imposed by a finite framework. The same can probably be said ofJ > > any forms of rules, limits, legislation, ... what-have-you. One learns > > to operate within limits.  > >  > > > I believe it is J > > > important to address such consequences, even if it means backing off+ > > > from the originating principle a bit.  > > J > > At the risk of starting yet another lengthy subthread (which I hope itH > > won't as we've already been down the "moral absolute" vs. "no rules"H > > rat-hole), I'd have to evoke Machiavelli at that this point: the end > > does not justify the means.  > > H > > One of the guiding tenets I live by is that "principles are like theD > > stars: we set our course by them, but rarely do we attain them". > I > What I meant was something like the following: Consider illegal aliens. E > One may have the priniciple that they should be caught by any legal G > means and shipped out. But what of the consequences? What if an alien E > reports a rape, but in doing so is found out by the police to be an I > alien? The alien is deported. Well, word will spread quickly and aliens  > won't report crimes anymore.  B Let's try looking at that from the other direction: Except for theF exceptionally stupid ones, do dope-heads call the cops when their dope= gets lifted? Why not? Does that stop anyone from buying dope?   + > So the next similar rape (or other crime) ; > goes unreported and this means more rapes and more crime.   B Depends. I'm sure street gangs don't inform law enforcement when aG "crime" is commited against one of theirs, yet the results will be less D than desirable for the perpetrator(s). I'm not promoting gangs, justF illustrating that even undesirable elements tend to take care of their own.   > A similar I > situation exists for aliens enrolling their children in school. Suppose H > when they enroll they are found out and deported. The consequence willD > be that aliens won't enroll their children in school. Now you have@ > innocent children out on the street, not getting an education.  B Ever heard of a "truant officer", BTW? They're gonna be found out, anyway.    > SoundsF > like a good way to breed criminals. Are these consequences we reallyB > want? What about our principle, which seemed so "okay" at first?  G Still seems o.k. Like any other situation, however, you gotta deal with G the fallout. Can't have petrol-fueled vehicles without pollution. Can't G enjoy a comfortable life without securing some form of cash flow. Can't F enjoy the fireplace without either cleaning up the ashes or paying theD gas bill. Can't rid the world of tyranny without some innocent lives being lost.    It's not a perfect world.   G > So I ask, in an admittedly "twisted" version of your saw: do the ends  > justify the means?!    Yes and no.   E Yes, there is the possibility of unwanted fallout, rather the same as D banning corporal punishment (children grow up believing they can get: away with anything at the expense of a little "time out").  ' No, illegal aliens cannot be tolerated.    > Be careful what you wish for.   9 You take the good with the bad. It's not a perfect world.   9 Unless you stand for something, you'll fall for anything.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Nov 2005 18:48:11 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayB Message-ID: <1133232491.027037.42540@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > Lurker wrote:  > > 3 > > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message @ > > news:1132844010.172444.16400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > >  > > ...  [...] K > > > 2. Unions are good/bad for workers, getting them a better/worse deal. ? > > > This includes wages and benefits, and working conditions.  > > > E > > > One thing I noticed from some is a pure "every man for himself" H > > > attitude. They argue that unions should not be allowed to lock out1 > > > non-union workers willing to work for less.  > > * > > Why should they be allowed to do that? >  > Fairness.   E Well. It could well be that unions have done some good. Obviously not G for our Bill G. and Lurker, but maybe for you and some others. But here @ in NYC all I see is that they abuse their power. Tell me how the& following article from AMny is "fair":  % Transit Union Says It Won't Back Down   C With its contract due to expire in less than three weeks, the union C representing transit workers continued to call on the MTA [New York D City's Metropolitan Transportation Authority who is in charge of twoE RR's, the subway and buses, and NYC bridges] yesterday to use some of 0 its $1 billion budget surplus to raise salaries.  A "We have the power, and we're putting the pressure on," said John F Mooney, a vice president of the Transport Workers Union Local 100, whoG was among dozens of workers who gathered for a rally yesterday in Union < Square. ["We have the power." Now there's fairness for you.]  G The contract representing about 30,000 subway and bus workers is set to ? expire on Dec. 15, and union officieals have not been shy about B discussing a possible strike if an agreement is not reached before then.   G The union is demanding a 10% increase for each of the next three years,  with no reduction in benefits.  A The MTA has said it plans to spend $450 million of its surplus on E workers' pensions, but has declined to discuss any further details of  contract negotiations.  D Union members will hold a general meeting on Dec. 10, where they may* discuss a strike or one-day work stoppage.  E A recent, seven-day strike by transit workers in Philadelphia is seen D as a model here in New York, although the same state law that allowsB public emplloyees to unionize in New York also prohibits them fromG striking. Union leaders are currently in court working on a preliminary D injunction against any punitive efforts to break up a future strike.    C OK, yes, there is a big surplus due to real estate taxes. But it is G temporary and the MTA has a LOT of debt to pay down: billions. New York G state has one of the highest debt/capitas in the U.S. So please tell me G how a demand for a net 33% increase in wages and threatening an illegal E strike is "fair". How is it fair for 30,000 workers to hold a city of F millions hostage? Hopefully, the Taylor law will be strictly enforced.E And of this surplus, why shouldn't the riders get a 33% discount? And E the surplus is temporary. When it goes away, and we all know it will, D will the unions calmly accept wage decreases back to the pre-surplus levels? Hmmmmmm?  C And why does the stupid contract end in Dec.? If there is a strike, E I'll have to walk at least 3 miles through traffic-clogged streets in D whatever weather there is and over the Brooklyn Bridge (which is, ofE course, exposed to the full force of the cold winds and precip). Yes, 6 that will be fun. And I'll be one of the lucky ones!!!  G Even if you believe unions are a good thing, you can have too much of a F "good thing". They abuse their power. I have seen it with my own eyes.   >  > > > I think that's fine to aG > > > point. I have read news about what I feel are unreasonably unsafe 5 > > > working conditions for some workers in the U.S.  > > B > > Hold on a second - if the conditions are "unreasonably unsafe"4 > > that's probably a matter for prosecution, right? > I > Depends on the occupation. Examples: coal mining (not strip), petroleum  > refinery workers.  >  > > Not for the unions.  > C > Yes, for the unions as they have enough bargaining chips to offer G > greater protection to their workers than government agencies that are ) > often lax, incompetent or non-existant.  >  > > > And then there are the> > > > sweatshops which at least one poster claims don't exist. > > ? > > Not sure if you meant me but, if you did, I claimed no such @ > > thing. What I said (from memory) was that slavery is illegal0 > > in most, if not all, of the countries today. > H > ...as are acts of terrorism and illicit drug trade. What's your point? >  > > Yes, of course, illegal @ > > things happen (surprise, surprise) that's why I suggested toA > > another poster to report to the police the cases he knows of.  > J > ...and which police would you suggest should be notified of sweat-shops,$ > child labor and other attrocities? > B > > The answer that police doesn't have jurisdiction there doesn't > > hold water >  > On what planet?  > A > > - it simply says there are no cases within that jurisdiction.  >  > Try again. > J > > And, in places where there are no police, I doubt there are any unionsG > > either. So, please explain, how staging a bus driver strike in, say @ > > Melbourne, will help sweatshop workers somewhere in SE Asia? > % > Totally missed the point, as usual.  >   F Will both of you please be clear about what sweatshops in what country and what police?     [...]    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Nov 2005 18:55:26 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1133232926.252572.110890@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > AEF wrote: > >  > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > AEF wrote: [...] J > > > One of the guiding tenets I live by is that "principles are like theF > > > stars: we set our course by them, but rarely do we attain them". > > K > > What I meant was something like the following: Consider illegal aliens. G > > One may have the priniciple that they should be caught by any legal I > > means and shipped out. But what of the consequences? What if an alien G > > reports a rape, but in doing so is found out by the police to be an K > > alien? The alien is deported. Well, word will spread quickly and aliens   > > won't report crimes anymore. > D > Let's try looking at that from the other direction: Except for theH > exceptionally stupid ones, do dope-heads call the cops when their dope? > gets lifted? Why not? Does that stop anyone from buying dope?  > - > > So the next similar rape (or other crime) = > > goes unreported and this means more rapes and more crime.  > D > Depends. I'm sure street gangs don't inform law enforcement when aI > "crime" is commited against one of theirs, yet the results will be less F > than desirable for the perpetrator(s). I'm not promoting gangs, justH > illustrating that even undesirable elements tend to take care of their > own.  F So you prefer rapists in the streets to illegal aliens doing jobs that/ Americans wouldn't do. That's your prerogative.  > 
 > > A similar K > > situation exists for aliens enrolling their children in school. Suppose J > > when they enroll they are found out and deported. The consequence willF > > be that aliens won't enroll their children in school. Now you haveB > > innocent children out on the street, not getting an education. > D > Ever heard of a "truant officer", BTW? They're gonna be found out,	 > anyway.   
 Some of them.    > 
 > > SoundsH > > like a good way to breed criminals. Are these consequences we reallyD > > want? What about our principle, which seemed so "okay" at first? > I > Still seems o.k. Like any other situation, however, you gotta deal with I > the fallout. Can't have petrol-fueled vehicles without pollution. Can't I > enjoy a comfortable life without securing some form of cash flow. Can't H > enjoy the fireplace without either cleaning up the ashes or paying theF > gas bill. Can't rid the world of tyranny without some innocent lives
 > being lost.   G But you just don't complacently accept the pollution. You take measures  to reduce it. Etc.  D Look what happened to Calif. when they went by "principles" with theE electricity crisis when they wouldn't let utilities pass the costs to  their customers. >  > It's not a perfect world.  > I > > So I ask, in an admittedly "twisted" version of your saw: do the ends  > > justify the means?!  > 
 > Yes and no.  > G > Yes, there is the possibility of unwanted fallout, rather the same as F > banning corporal punishment (children grow up believing they can get< > away with anything at the expense of a little "time out"). > ) > No, illegal aliens cannot be tolerated.    So you prefer rapists?   > ! > > Be careful what you wish for.  > ; > You take the good with the bad. It's not a perfect world.  > ; > Unless you stand for something, you'll fall for anything.   E I stand for not blindly following any principle without regard to its ) consequences. We endure the consequences.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:07:39 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <438D096A.1033DE6F@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > AEF wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > AEF wrote: > > > >  > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > > AEF wrote:	 > > [...] N > > > > > One of the guiding tenets I live by is that "principles are like theJ > > > > > stars: we set our course by them, but rarely do we attain them". > > > > O > > > > What I meant was something like the following: Consider illegal aliens. K > > > > One may have the priniciple that they should be caught by any legal M > > > > means and shipped out. But what of the consequences? What if an alien K > > > > reports a rape, but in doing so is found out by the police to be an O > > > > alien? The alien is deported. Well, word will spread quickly and aliens $ > > > > won't report crimes anymore. > > > H > > > Let's try looking at that from the other direction: Except for theL > > > exceptionally stupid ones, do dope-heads call the cops when their dopeC > > > gets lifted? Why not? Does that stop anyone from buying dope?  > > > 1 > > > > So the next similar rape (or other crime) A > > > > goes unreported and this means more rapes and more crime.  > > > H > > > Depends. I'm sure street gangs don't inform law enforcement when aM > > > "crime" is commited against one of theirs, yet the results will be less J > > > than desirable for the perpetrator(s). I'm not promoting gangs, justL > > > illustrating that even undesirable elements tend to take care of their
 > > > own. > > J > > So you prefer rapists in the streets to illegal aliens doing jobs that3 > > Americans wouldn't do. That's your prerogative.  > E > Actually, on 2nd thought, it's worse than that. You'd simply end up F > with the same number of aliens, minus the first one who reported theI > crime, and more could-have-been-reported rapists on the loose. I really * > don't see how that  is a better outcome.   No one said it was.   G However, immigration enforcement does not stop just because one illegal ! reports a rape and gets deported.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:06:07 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today* Message-ID: <438D090F.E323BEF@comcast.net>  
 AEF wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > AEF wrote: > > >  > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > AEF wrote: > [...] L > > > > One of the guiding tenets I live by is that "principles are like theH > > > > stars: we set our course by them, but rarely do we attain them". > > > M > > > What I meant was something like the following: Consider illegal aliens. I > > > One may have the priniciple that they should be caught by any legal K > > > means and shipped out. But what of the consequences? What if an alien I > > > reports a rape, but in doing so is found out by the police to be an M > > > alien? The alien is deported. Well, word will spread quickly and aliens " > > > won't report crimes anymore. > > F > > Let's try looking at that from the other direction: Except for theJ > > exceptionally stupid ones, do dope-heads call the cops when their dopeA > > gets lifted? Why not? Does that stop anyone from buying dope?  > > / > > > So the next similar rape (or other crime) ? > > > goes unreported and this means more rapes and more crime.  > > F > > Depends. I'm sure street gangs don't inform law enforcement when aK > > "crime" is commited against one of theirs, yet the results will be less H > > than desirable for the perpetrator(s). I'm not promoting gangs, justJ > > illustrating that even undesirable elements tend to take care of their > > own. > & > So you prefer rapists in the streets  G I prefer law enforcement which tolerates neither rapists near illegals.   # > to illegal aliens doing jobs that  > Americans wouldn't do.  E That's baloney. For illegals - either illiterate or not conversant in B the dominant language (English), the less-"desirable" jobs are theG mostthey can hope for in many cases. Americans will do those same jobs, D though perhaps not in such great numbers and not as willingly (since= it's not "cool" and does not promote "affluence" as quickly).   E It may be interesting to note that in some places youngsters entering > the work force are seeking out the very trade unions that someH participants of this thread eschew, and for some surprising reasons: jobD security (in so far as that remains possible), mobility (the skilledH trades can work anywhere in the U.S.), steady work (the housing boom mayF be slowing in some places, but building continues if one is is willingF to go where the work is). According to the article I was reading, someE youths even commented that they wanted to do something more rewarding D than "shuffling papers or playing point-and-click all day". (..and I) thought I came up with that...! Far out!)    > That's your prerogative.  C Indeed. I choose to accept the forseen (no "un") but less desirable @ consequences. If you want to eat scrambled, ya gotta break eggs.   > > > A similar M > > > situation exists for aliens enrolling their children in school. Suppose L > > > when they enroll they are found out and deported. The consequence willH > > > be that aliens won't enroll their children in school. Now you haveD > > > innocent children out on the street, not getting an education. > > F > > Ever heard of a "truant officer", BTW? They're gonna be found out, > > anyway.  >  > Some of them.   A Again, it's not a perfect world. You been hangin' out with "Z" or 
 something?   > >  > > > SoundsJ > > > like a good way to breed criminals. Are these consequences we reallyF > > > want? What about our principle, which seemed so "okay" at first? > > K > > Still seems o.k. Like any other situation, however, you gotta deal with K > > the fallout. Can't have petrol-fueled vehicles without pollution. Can't K > > enjoy a comfortable life without securing some form of cash flow. Can't J > > enjoy the fireplace without either cleaning up the ashes or paying theH > > gas bill. Can't rid the world of tyranny without some innocent lives > > being lost.  > I > But you just don't complacently accept the pollution. You take measures  > to reduce it. Etc.  H ...but I don't let it run - or ruin - my life. If I can reduce it, fine.D Until someone comes up with an alternative to batteries and internal# combustion engines, ... guess what?   F > Look what happened to Calif. when they went by "principles" with theG > electricity crisis when they wouldn't let utilities pass the costs to  > their customers.  2 Oopsie! Looks like you were taken in by the media.  F Read up on the Enron debacle to learn to the true source of CA's power	 problems.    > > It's not a perfect world.  > > K > > > So I ask, in an admittedly "twisted" version of your saw: do the ends  > > > justify the means?!  > >  > > Yes and no.  > > I > > Yes, there is the possibility of unwanted fallout, rather the same as H > > banning corporal punishment (children grow up believing they can get> > > away with anything at the expense of a little "time out"). > > + > > No, illegal aliens cannot be tolerated.  >  > So you prefer rapists?  G I prefer law enforcement which tolerates neither rapists near illegals.    > > # > > > Be careful what you wish for.  > > = > > You take the good with the bad. It's not a perfect world.  > > = > > Unless you stand for something, you'll fall for anything.  > G > I stand for not blindly following any principle without regard to its + > consequences. We endure the consequences.   F ...but we do not need to rehash what has already been thought through.F Even the proponents of prohibition knew there would be a backlash. TheG "war on drugs" still probably breeds more users than it prevents, yet I C doubt anyone views legalization of such addictive intoxicants as an  acceptable alternative.   E As Bill Murray's character said in "Groundhog Day", "You make choices  and you live with them!"   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:28:28 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <438D0E4C.D9A9E474@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Lurker wrote:  > > > 5 > > > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message B > > > news:1132844010.172444.16400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > > 	 > > > ...  > [...] M > > > > 2. Unions are good/bad for workers, getting them a better/worse deal. A > > > > This includes wages and benefits, and working conditions.  > > > > G > > > > One thing I noticed from some is a pure "every man for himself" J > > > > attitude. They argue that unions should not be allowed to lock out3 > > > > non-union workers willing to work for less.  > > > , > > > Why should they be allowed to do that? > > 
 > > Fairness.  > G > Well. It could well be that unions have done some good. Obviously not I > for our Bill G. and Lurker, but maybe for you and some others. But here B > in NYC all I see is that they abuse their power. Tell me how the( > following article from AMny is "fair": > ' > Transit Union Says It Won't Back Down  > E > With its contract due to expire in less than three weeks, the union E > representing transit workers continued to call on the MTA [New York F > City's Metropolitan Transportation Authority who is in charge of twoG > RR's, the subway and buses, and NYC bridges] yesterday to use some of 2 > its $1 billion budget surplus to raise salaries. > C > "We have the power, and we're putting the pressure on," said John H > Mooney, a vice president of the Transport Workers Union Local 100, whoI > was among dozens of workers who gathered for a rally yesterday in Union > > Square. ["We have the power." Now there's fairness for you.]  F The transit agency has a $1 billion surplus. "Now there's fairness for you."    > [snip]E > OK, yes, there is a big surplus due to real estate taxes. But it is @ > temporary and the MTA has a LOT of debt to pay down: billions.  # Why have those debts not been paid?   A I keep reading about pensions and such in arrears, which *ARE* an F obligation that employers somehow feel entitled to shirk. "Now there's fairness for you."  
 > New YorkI > state has one of the highest debt/capitas in the U.S. So please tell me I > how a demand for a net 33% increase in wages and threatening an illegal G > strike is "fair". How is it fair for 30,000 workers to hold a city of  > millions hostage?   B Non sequitur. No government or other agency is required to provideD transit, public or otherwise. Use of mass transit is a choice, not a requirement.  6 > Hopefully, the Taylor law will be strictly enforced.G > And of this surplus, why shouldn't the riders get a 33% discount? And G > the surplus is temporary. When it goes away, and we all know it will, F > will the unions calmly accept wage decreases back to the pre-surplus > levels? Hmmmmmm?  C Question: If the surplus is sourced by property taxes, what form of < abatement will cause the source of that surplus to "dry up"?  E > And why does the stupid contract end in Dec.? If there is a strike, G > I'll have to walk at least 3 miles through traffic-clogged streets in F > whatever weather there is and over the Brooklyn Bridge (which is, ofG > course, exposed to the full force of the cold winds and precip). Yes, 8 > that will be fun. And I'll be one of the lucky ones!!!  ? By the way: it is not unusual for mass transit to operate under G deficits. Read up on the Chicago area's Metra and Pace agencies, not to H mention Amtrak and the major airlines that have been in the news so much lately.   I > Even if you believe unions are a good thing, you can have too much of a H > "good thing". They abuse their power. I have seen it with my own eyes.  H Depends. You view it as abuse. They view it as a last resort. Obviously,H negotiating isn't working. Why? Question: since the union cannot legallyF call a strike, what is the transit agency's motivation to negotiate in- good faith? ("Now there's fairness for you.")    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 18:56:44 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1133319404.619215.207060@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > AEF wrote: > >  > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > AEF wrote: > > > >  > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > > AEF wrote:	 > > [...] N > > > > > One of the guiding tenets I live by is that "principles are like theJ > > > > > stars: we set our course by them, but rarely do we attain them". > > > > O > > > > What I meant was something like the following: Consider illegal aliens. K > > > > One may have the priniciple that they should be caught by any legal M > > > > means and shipped out. But what of the consequences? What if an alien K > > > > reports a rape, but in doing so is found out by the police to be an O > > > > alien? The alien is deported. Well, word will spread quickly and aliens $ > > > > won't report crimes anymore. > > > H > > > Let's try looking at that from the other direction: Except for theL > > > exceptionally stupid ones, do dope-heads call the cops when their dopeC > > > gets lifted? Why not? Does that stop anyone from buying dope?  > > > 1 > > > > So the next similar rape (or other crime) A > > > > goes unreported and this means more rapes and more crime.  > > > H > > > Depends. I'm sure street gangs don't inform law enforcement when aM > > > "crime" is commited against one of theirs, yet the results will be less J > > > than desirable for the perpetrator(s). I'm not promoting gangs, justL > > > illustrating that even undesirable elements tend to take care of their
 > > > own. > > ( > > So you prefer rapists in the streets > I > I prefer law enforcement which tolerates neither rapists near illegals.   A But my way you'd have nearly the same number of aliens, but fewer  rapists on the loose.   G I'm not saying there should be no enforcement of immigration laws. Just * that some ways may do more harm than good.   > % > > to illegal aliens doing jobs that  > > Americans wouldn't do. > G > That's baloney. For illegals - either illiterate or not conversant in D > the dominant language (English), the less-"desirable" jobs are theI > mostthey can hope for in many cases. Americans will do those same jobs, F > though perhaps not in such great numbers and not as willingly (since? > it's not "cool" and does not promote "affluence" as quickly).    Well, this is controversial.   > G > It may be interesting to note that in some places youngsters entering @ > the work force are seeking out the very trade unions that someJ > participants of this thread eschew, and for some surprising reasons: jobF > security (in so far as that remains possible), mobility (the skilledJ > trades can work anywhere in the U.S.), steady work (the housing boom mayH > be slowing in some places, but building continues if one is is willingH > to go where the work is). According to the article I was reading, someG > youths even commented that they wanted to do something more rewarding F > than "shuffling papers or playing point-and-click all day". (..and I+ > thought I came up with that...! Far out!)  >  > > That's your prerogative. > E > Indeed. I choose to accept the forseen (no "un") but less desirable B > consequences. If you want to eat scrambled, ya gotta break eggs.  & What do eggs have to do with anything?   >  > > > > A similar O > > > > situation exists for aliens enrolling their children in school. Suppose N > > > > when they enroll they are found out and deported. The consequence willJ > > > > be that aliens won't enroll their children in school. Now you haveF > > > > innocent children out on the street, not getting an education. > > > H > > > Ever heard of a "truant officer", BTW? They're gonna be found out,
 > > > anyway.  > >  > > Some of them.  > C > Again, it's not a perfect world. You been hangin' out with "Z" or  > something?  A Well, I got this idea from Ed Koch who was mayor of NYC for three F years. He said it on his radio show. Maybe he's wrong, but having been< mayor for 12 yrs. he probably knows what he's talking about.   >  > > >  > > > > SoundsL > > > > like a good way to breed criminals. Are these consequences we reallyH > > > > want? What about our principle, which seemed so "okay" at first? > > > M > > > Still seems o.k. Like any other situation, however, you gotta deal with M > > > the fallout. Can't have petrol-fueled vehicles without pollution. Can't M > > > enjoy a comfortable life without securing some form of cash flow. Can't L > > > enjoy the fireplace without either cleaning up the ashes or paying theJ > > > gas bill. Can't rid the world of tyranny without some innocent lives > > > being lost.  > > K > > But you just don't complacently accept the pollution. You take measures  > > to reduce it. Etc. > J > ...but I don't let it run - or ruin - my life. If I can reduce it, fine.F > Until someone comes up with an alternative to batteries and internal% > combustion engines, ... guess what?   F You're flying off the handle. I'm just taking your example and showing@ how sticking to a principle results in more pollution than doing something abou tit.    > H > > Look what happened to Calif. when they went by "principles" with theI > > electricity crisis when they wouldn't let utilities pass the costs to  > > their customers. > 4 > Oopsie! Looks like you were taken in by the media. > H > Read up on the Enron debacle to learn to the true source of CA's power > problems.   > I didn't mean that that caused the whole problem. But it was aB principle that led to that regulation that only made things worse.   >  > > > It's not a perfect world.  > > > M > > > > So I ask, in an admittedly "twisted" version of your saw: do the ends  > > > > justify the means?!  > > >  > > > Yes and no.  > > > K > > > Yes, there is the possibility of unwanted fallout, rather the same as J > > > banning corporal punishment (children grow up believing they can get@ > > > away with anything at the expense of a little "time out"). > > > - > > > No, illegal aliens cannot be tolerated.  > >  > > So you prefer rapists? > I > I prefer law enforcement which tolerates neither rapists near illegals.   A But my way you'd have fewer rapists and nearly the same number of  "illegals".    >  > > > % > > > > Be careful what you wish for.  > > > ? > > > You take the good with the bad. It's not a perfect world.  > > > ? > > > Unless you stand for something, you'll fall for anything.  > > I > > I stand for not blindly following any principle without regard to its - > > consequences. We endure the consequences.  > H > ...but we do not need to rehash what has already been thought through.H > Even the proponents of prohibition knew there would be a backlash. TheI > "war on drugs" still probably breeds more users than it prevents, yet I E > doubt anyone views legalization of such addictive intoxicants as an  > acceptable alternative.   F You just made a good case for ending the war on drugs. Not all illegal3 drugs are addictive and at least one legal drug is.    > G > As Bill Murray's character said in "Groundhog Day", "You make choices  > and you live with them!" >  > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  >  > Coming soon:( > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 18:57:57 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1133319477.860130.100060@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > AEF wrote: > >  > > AEF wrote: > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > AEF wrote:	 > > > > > ! > > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > > > AEF wrote: > > > [...] P > > > > > > One of the guiding tenets I live by is that "principles are like theL > > > > > > stars: we set our course by them, but rarely do we attain them".	 > > > > > Q > > > > > What I meant was something like the following: Consider illegal aliens. M > > > > > One may have the priniciple that they should be caught by any legal O > > > > > means and shipped out. But what of the consequences? What if an alien M > > > > > reports a rape, but in doing so is found out by the police to be an Q > > > > > alien? The alien is deported. Well, word will spread quickly and aliens & > > > > > won't report crimes anymore. > > > > J > > > > Let's try looking at that from the other direction: Except for theN > > > > exceptionally stupid ones, do dope-heads call the cops when their dopeE > > > > gets lifted? Why not? Does that stop anyone from buying dope?  > > > > 3 > > > > > So the next similar rape (or other crime) C > > > > > goes unreported and this means more rapes and more crime.  > > > > J > > > > Depends. I'm sure street gangs don't inform law enforcement when aO > > > > "crime" is commited against one of theirs, yet the results will be less L > > > > than desirable for the perpetrator(s). I'm not promoting gangs, justN > > > > illustrating that even undesirable elements tend to take care of their > > > > own. > > > L > > > So you prefer rapists in the streets to illegal aliens doing jobs that5 > > > Americans wouldn't do. That's your prerogative.  > > G > > Actually, on 2nd thought, it's worse than that. You'd simply end up H > > with the same number of aliens, minus the first one who reported theK > > crime, and more could-have-been-reported rapists on the loose. I really , > > don't see how that  is a better outcome. >  > No one said it was.  > I > However, immigration enforcement does not stop just because one illegal # > reports a rape and gets deported.   B I didn't say that it did. But my way you have one more illegal butE fewer rapists. Your way you have the same number of illegals but more  rapists on the loose.    >  > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  >  > Coming soon:( > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 19:18:05 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1133320685.145463.312400@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   
 AEF wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > AEF wrote: > > >  > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > Lurker wrote: 	 > > > > > 9 > > > > > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message F > > > > > news:1132844010.172444.16400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...	 > > > > > 
 > > > > > ...  > > > [...]  [...]  >   / Sorry to have to correct myself, but here goes:   I > I don't know but your dodging the issue. First of all, the union should    make that shouldn't.  E > get a 33% raise and they certainly shouldn't be threatening to shut I > down the city to get it, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE VERY SAME LAW THAT ALLOWS 4 > THEM TO HAVE A UNION FORBIDS THEM FROM STRIKING!!! > E > > I keep reading about pensions and such in arrears, which *ARE* an J > > obligation that employers somehow feel entitled to shirk. "Now there's > > fairness for you." > F > You're dodging the issue. In fact, the article said that half of theD > surplus was going to the pensions. So now it's only half a billion
 > dollars.  F Not only that, the almost half the suprlus, this $450 million is goingA to the workers (their pensions)! They're already getting half the ( surplus and somehow that's not enough!!!   Give me a f***ing break.!    [...]   F Ya know, I even admit that there may be or at least may have been someB good from the unions, but you seem to be claiming that nothing theC union does or could do is unreasonable. How about if they resort to G suicide bombing? Would that be enough to make you think they're abusing D their power? They're already threatening the break the very law thatC allows them to be and still you don't see anything wrong with that.    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 19:06:38 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1133319998.845460.286840@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > AEF wrote: > >  > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > Lurker wrote:  > > > > 7 > > > > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message D > > > > news:1132844010.172444.16400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > > >  > > > > ... 	 > > [...] O > > > > > 2. Unions are good/bad for workers, getting them a better/worse deal. C > > > > > This includes wages and benefits, and working conditions. 	 > > > > > I > > > > > One thing I noticed from some is a pure "every man for himself" L > > > > > attitude. They argue that unions should not be allowed to lock out5 > > > > > non-union workers willing to work for less.  > > > > . > > > > Why should they be allowed to do that? > > >  > > > Fairness.  > > I > > Well. It could well be that unions have done some good. Obviously not K > > for our Bill G. and Lurker, but maybe for you and some others. But here D > > in NYC all I see is that they abuse their power. Tell me how the* > > following article from AMny is "fair": > > ) > > Transit Union Says It Won't Back Down  > > G > > With its contract due to expire in less than three weeks, the union G > > representing transit workers continued to call on the MTA [New York H > > City's Metropolitan Transportation Authority who is in charge of twoI > > RR's, the subway and buses, and NYC bridges] yesterday to use some of 4 > > its $1 billion budget surplus to raise salaries. > > E > > "We have the power, and we're putting the pressure on," said John J > > Mooney, a vice president of the Transport Workers Union Local 100, whoK > > was among dozens of workers who gathered for a rally yesterday in Union @ > > Square. ["We have the power." Now there's fairness for you.] > H > The transit agency has a $1 billion surplus. "Now there's fairness for > you."   G It's a fluke. No, the MTA aren't angels. But I'm not aware of any gov't F or agency surplus living long. The MTA and New York state are BILLIONSA in debt. So it's not really a surplus. And why should the transit G workers get a 33% raise from that anyway? If they STOLE the $1 billion,  that would be unfair.     
 > > [snip]G > > OK, yes, there is a big surplus due to real estate taxes. But it is B > > temporary and the MTA has a LOT of debt to pay down: billions. > % > Why have those debts not been paid?   G I don't know but your dodging the issue. First of all, the union should C get a 33% raise and they certainly shouldn't be threatening to shut G down the city to get it, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE VERY SAME LAW THAT ALLOWS 2 THEM TO HAVE A UNION FORBIDS THEM FROM STRIKING!!!  C > I keep reading about pensions and such in arrears, which *ARE* an H > obligation that employers somehow feel entitled to shirk. "Now there's > fairness for you."  D You're dodging the issue. In fact, the article said that half of theB surplus was going to the pensions. So now it's only half a billion dollars.   >  > > New YorkK > > state has one of the highest debt/capitas in the U.S. So please tell me K > > how a demand for a net 33% increase in wages and threatening an illegal I > > strike is "fair". How is it fair for 30,000 workers to hold a city of  > > millions hostage?  > D > Non sequitur. No government or other agency is required to provideF > transit, public or otherwise. Use of mass transit is a choice, not a > requirement.  < What? this justifies holding the city hostage? this is not aC non-sequiter at all. It is at the very heart of the issue. It's not F like these union workers are being paid slave wages. And it's not likeD the union will go back to current wages when the surplus evaporates.   > 8 > > Hopefully, the Taylor law will be strictly enforced.I > > And of this surplus, why shouldn't the riders get a 33% discount? And I > > the surplus is temporary. When it goes away, and we all know it will, H > > will the unions calmly accept wage decreases back to the pre-surplus > > levels? Hmmmmmm? > E > Question: If the surplus is sourced by property taxes, what form of > > abatement will cause the source of that surplus to "dry up"?  F I think it's from sales taxes of housing sales. The real estate bubbleF will burst and dry it up. We can't keep selling housing at ever-risingF prices to each other forever! In fact there are already signs that the% housing market is starting to go bad.    > G > > And why does the stupid contract end in Dec.? If there is a strike, I > > I'll have to walk at least 3 miles through traffic-clogged streets in H > > whatever weather there is and over the Brooklyn Bridge (which is, ofI > > course, exposed to the full force of the cold winds and precip). Yes, : > > that will be fun. And I'll be one of the lucky ones!!! > A > By the way: it is not unusual for mass transit to operate under I > deficits. Read up on the Chicago area's Metra and Pace agencies, not to J > mention Amtrak and the major airlines that have been in the news so much	 > lately.    Has nothing to do with this.   > K > > Even if you believe unions are a good thing, you can have too much of a J > > "good thing". They abuse their power. I have seen it with my own eyes. > J > Depends. You view it as abuse. They view it as a last resort. Obviously,J > negotiating isn't working. Why? Question: since the union cannot legallyH > call a strike, what is the transit agency's motivation to negotiate in/ > good faith? ("Now there's fairness for you.")   = Last resort for what? For getting outlandish, undeserved wage C increases? I don't really care what they view it as. Criminals view   themselves as innocent. So what?   >  > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  >  > Coming soon:( > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:33:17 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> - Subject: HTML version of I/O Reference Manual 1 Message-ID: <dmj6jm$hfj$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi,   G What's happened to the online HTML version of the I/O Reference Manual? 
 Under repair?    Regards Richard Maher    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:07:35 +0000 (UTC) - From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) / Subject: Re: Java App crashes under user SYSTEM . Message-ID: <dmg2jn$e8d$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   Bernhard Dorninger <bernhard.dorningerATscchDOTat> writes in article <Xns971C182C61687bdscch@193.171.255.23> dated 28 Nov 2005 01:22:35 GMT  : E >We have a Java app running under OpenVMS 7.3.1 with HP's latest Java # >1.4.2 VM (including the patch p2)   > E >The app is started as a detached process and starts subprocesses via  >Java's runtime.exec method. > P >It runs quite fine under an ordinary user account we have set up, but the wholeO >VM crashes under user SYSTEM with the following trace info. It crashes exactly Q >at the instruction Runtime.exec. Obviously, the Java VM tries to load an OpenVMS P >system library. No idea which, though. In our main process' code we do not load >any native libraries   J To execute a native command, Runtime.exec() would naturally need to call a# native library.  No surprise there.   ) >The arguments given to Runtime.exec are:  >JAVA$JRE_HOME_VMS/bin/java -Xms64m -Xmx128m -Djava.class.path=server.jar:pmapi.jar:types.jar at.xyz.pmp.scheduler.PMAPI.remote.server.ModelServer -port 12899 -model BLENDEModelWrapper -version 1.0.0 -debug > P >I have no access to the process quotas of SYSTEM, but the admin assured me that4 >they are the same as for the ordinary user account.  
 Sanity check:   H Are you launching the detached main process from the user account in theB exact same way as the system account does it?  The presence of theE /AUTHORIZE qualifier on the run command makes a difference in quotas.   I To see what you get without /AUTHORIZE, do a "mc sysgen show pql*".  What F you get by default is the lower of the PQL_D and PQL_M value, I think.  E But why would you even WANT to use SYSTEM?  Best practice for running H system-level servers is to create a different account for each differentL (software-wise) daemon.  TCPIP alone has created 16 different accounts on myJ cluster.  If one of those ever went crazy, it would be easy to isolate and2 shut down that server while I look at the problem.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:17:25 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: Java App crashes under user SYSTEM , Message-ID: <438CFD99.182CD438@teksavvy.com>   Bernhard wrote: H > Uhh, it is good to hear that. We have no idea why our customer insistsI > on running the app under SYSTEM. It is NOT even a system level service.   H A good system manager will insist the vendor justify every privilege the application requires.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 22:38:11 +0100 & From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch>@ Subject: Re: Need help: Applying multiple ECO kits and rebooting, Message-ID: <3v1bm2F13akc3U1@individual.net>  
 AEF wrote:D > I want to bring some VMS 6.2 systems up to date w.r.t. ECO kits. IG > recently did this on such a system and did many reboots. Do I have to G > reboot between each one if I do them all at once? Note that these ECO H > kits will be applied during down time. No one will be using the system) > between while I am applying these kits.  >  > These are the kits I applied:  > 3 > vaxclusio01_062.release_notes   24-Nov-2005 01:43 3 > vaxy2k02_062.release_notes      24-Nov-2005 01:58 3 > vaxf11x06_062.release_notes     24-Nov-2005 02:07 3 > vaxsysa02_062.release_notes     24-Nov-2005 02:24 3 > vaxsysb02_062.release_notes     24-Nov-2005 02:29 3 > vaxshad10_062.release_notes     24-Nov-2005 02:32 3 > vaxqman05_062.release_notes     24-Nov-2005 02:38 3 > vaxrms04_062.release_notes      24-Nov-2005 02:40 3 > vaxlat03_062.release_notes      24-Nov-2005 02:46 3 > vaxscsi01_062.release_notes     24-Nov-2005 02:51 3 > vaxmail02_062.release_notes     24-Nov-2005 03:05 3 > vaxdwmotmup01_062.release_notes 24-Nov-2005 03:07 3 > vaxvmsmup01_062.release_notes   24-Nov-2005 03:57  > > > Some of the kits strongly recommend a reboot to avoid systemE > instability. OK, I guess I should do that for them. But do I really ' > need to reboot for any of the others?   I It's many years since I upgraded to 6.2 and applied then available kits,  I but I clearly remember that careful reading of the release notes gave me  ;   a clear idea of how to batch the updates between reboots.    > F > At least one said "no reboot is necessary after installation of this  > kit". OK, that's pretty clear. > C > Others say "The images in this kit will not take effect until the I > system is rebooted" or similar. Do I HAVE to reboot after these, or can I > I just continue to pile on the remaining ECO kits and do a final reboot I > (and the reboots to avoid system instability for those kits)? Remember: D > I am installing these kits in a single "session" -- "all at once". >   ! I'd say don't reboot after these.   I What do the release notes say about each kit? I use a minimum boot where  I possible to apply kits which warn of possible instability. Given a quick  I glance at your list, a minimum boot will ensure that Qman, LAT, mail and   Motif aren't running anyway.  H > Note: The dependencies among these are that these four must be done in/ > this order: VAXCLUSIO, Y2K02, F11X06, SHAD10.  >    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 06:59:51 -0800( From: "denny" <denny_rich@ameritech.net>? Subject: Performance advisor for OpenVMS, (Computer Associates) C Message-ID: <1133276391.650300.116310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   
 Good morning, @ We are running the former DECPS product, now published by CA andF licensed by us last year. This product displays "Unicenter TNG" as theG window title. I don't know how to get version information, but this was B installed and licensed last year (nov or dec), so it is reasonably current.  G OpenVMS V7.3-1, ES45 cluster (3 nodes), ES40 (one node, not running the E performance product). VMS is reasonably up to date on patches. Common  system disk.  F I want to display a custom graph of inswaps per second, and it appears< my only documentation (purchased long ago) may be defective.  F Documentation for Polycenter Performance Advisor V2.3, page 7-38, saysE I should be able to graph a number of system quantities. I have tried A many, and for the most part, they work. For example, this command  WORKS:  C  $ advise perform graph/type=custom=system_metrics=(DISK_SWAPPING)- 1         /out=2005-11-28_DISK_SWAPPING.ps        - !         /begin="YESTERDAY"      - !         /end="TODAY"            - 0         /form=postscript=(characteristic=color)-$         /node=(xxxx01,xxxx03,xxxx04)  D In fact, except for one, I can substitute any quantity listed in the table starting on page 7-36.  G The one that doesn't work is ISWPCNT. For this one, I get the following  error.  < $ advise perform graph/type=custom=system_metrics=(ISWPCNT)-)         /out=2005-11-28_ISWPCNT.ps      - !         /begin="YESTERDAY"      - !         /end="TODAY"            - 0         /form=postscript=(characteristic=color)-$         /node=(xxxx01,xxxx03,xxxx04): %PSPA-F-UNRECMETELE, Unrecognized system metric, "ISWPCNT"  D I suspect the documentation that I have is incorrect because i found8 ISWPCNT in the table, sandwiched between INPROCINACT andF INTERACTIVE_PROCESSES. Looks as if the table entry is a misprint. So IE tried inswpcnt, iswapcnt, inswap....and as many variations as I could  imagine, all with no success.   C Question 1.  Does anyone know the correct symbol to specify for the  inswap rate?  G Question 2.  Is there a way to dump a list of all the symbols that PSPA  knows about?   Thanks   denny    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 07:32:30 -0800( From: "denny" <denny_rich@ameritech.net>C Subject: Re: Performance advisor for OpenVMS, (Computer Associates) C Message-ID: <1133278350.126349.264360@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   D Update: I didn't look in the right place, but nothing has changed as? the docs on the CD reflect my really old paper docs.  2 points:    First part:     I found the version information: xxxx03> advise perf sho ver   A  Unicenter TNG Performance Advisor Module version V2.4-0105 built  29-MAY-2001  xxxx03>    Second part:D The distribution CD _does_ have documentaton on it, but it shows theD same error as my V2.3 book.  From the V2.4 doc, AdviseIT for OpenVMS+ Performance Administrator Guide, Page 6-36:   . INPROCACT Number of active inswapped processes2 INPROCINACT Number of inactive inswapped processes> ISWPCNT Inswaps per second   <==== here's what I think i want.5 INTERACTIVE_PROCESSES Number of interactive processes 7 INTERRUPT Percent CPU time spent on the interrupt stack    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 08:36:22 -0800( From: "denny" <denny_rich@ameritech.net>C Subject: Re: Performance advisor for OpenVMS, (Computer Associates) C Message-ID: <1133282182.552781.237480@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Hmmmmm.....i found it.  + it was in a Figure, on page 4-21.   INSWAP.   D who's law?  as soon as you ask the dumb question, you stumble across the answer?    :-)    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 13:25:12 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) C Subject: Re: Performance advisor for OpenVMS, (Computer Associates) 3 Message-ID: <tdimQjbIR6Ga@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <1133276391.650300.116310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "denny" <denny_rich@ameritech.net> writes: > I > The one that doesn't work is ISWPCNT. For this one, I get the following  > error.  H   Are you sure you wnt the inswap rate and not the hard page fault rate?  H   Most interactive systems don't do much swapping these days.  It's beenA   a long time since I tuned a system to increase swapping of idle    processes.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 15:06:26 -0800) From: "Sue" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> / Subject: Please Respond - VMS Technical Journal B Message-ID: <1133305586.919543.59980@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   Dear Distribution Lists,  @ Can you please take a moment and respond to the survey about the/ OpenVMS Technical Journal (VTJ) which is now on ; http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Survey_Introduction .   C Just so you are aware the next issue of the next VTJ will be out in F January and has already received over 40,000 views this year.  The VTJ( is done on a completely voluntary basis.   Thank you very much,  
 Sue Skonetski  VTJ Team Leader/Editor   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:27:14 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> 3 Subject: Re: Please Respond - VMS Technical Journal 1 Message-ID: <dmio6c$rrk$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Sue,   L Ok. I've done that. Now how about the Oz/Asia-Pacific (whatever) VMS Forums?G Doesn't have to be as detailed as your European sojourn but a few lines  would be good!   Cheers Richard Maher  L PS. If the Author of the upcoming VTJ article on Web Transactions would likeH someone to proof-read his/her article then I'd be interested in having a look.   4 "Sue" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote in message< news:1133305586.919543.59980@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... > Dear Distribution Lists, > B > Can you please take a moment and respond to the survey about the1 > OpenVMS Technical Journal (VTJ) which is now on = > http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Survey_Introduction .  > E > Just so you are aware the next issue of the next VTJ will be out in H > January and has already received over 40,000 views this year.  The VTJ* > is done on a completely voluntary basis. >  > Thank you very much, >  > Sue Skonetski  > VTJ Team Leader/Editor >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:47:42 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 3 Subject: Re: Please Respond - VMS Technical Journal + Message-ID: <438CF6A4.47993F5@teksavvy.com>   
 Sue wrote:E > Just so you are aware the next issue of the next VTJ will be out in A > January and has already received over 40,000 views this year.     F Sue, you are damned good at this ! The thing isn't out yet, and you've1 already had 40,000 people read it :-) :-) :-) :-)   X BTW, for V6 located at: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/v6/openvms_journal.pdf  E Am I the only one to have problems with some characters missing, some D characters overlapping each other and other typographical problems ?  B I don't like the newer versions of the PDF Reader because they are bloated and much slower.   ------------------------------   Date: 29 NOV 2005 23:13:49 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> M Subject: Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive 2 Message-ID: <29NOV05.23134941@feda34.fed.ornl.gov>  L In a previous article, Alan Frisbie <Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> wrote: > R Boyd wrote: J > > Because of the complications of the various sources of FT device typesK > > logging in on VMS, there are some times when I would like to be able to F > > have SYS$SYLOGIN execute a SET TERM/INQUIRE and others where it is% > > absolutely the wrong thing to do.  >   @ > I would like some additional information about the "terminal".C > When I log in, I have to spend quite a bit of time futzing around @ > setting all the terminal sizes and characteristics on all four> > of the window "panes".   For instance, on pane three, I keep? > four DECterms open for working on a particular project.   Two > > of them are 90x40 characters, have SYSPRV enabled, broadcast; > disabled, and are set to the project's default directory. B > The other two windows on this "pane" are set to different sizes,> > positions, directories, etc.   In addition, each one needs a< > different set of logical names defined.   To top it off, I; > want some set to tiny characters and others set to large.  >   @ > Every time I log in, the FT device numbers are different, so I? > cannot use that.   It would be really nice if there were some + > way to automate this setup at login time.  >   ? > If I knew which "pane" (is this the correct term?) a terminal 4 > were on, and which window it was, I could do this.  / I think you mean "workspace" instead of "pane".   = > Another nice thing would be the ability to set the position = > and state (minimized or maximized) of the DECterm from DCL. ; > I would do this with the old VWS software by using escape  > sequences.  F You can specify a number of window characteristics when you create theD DECterm with CREATE/TERM/WINDOW, including location, size, fonts andE initial state.  I added choices to the root menu (in [.dt]dtwmrc.dat) F that allow me to right click on the background and select which windowB to create (I invoke a .COM with the appropriate p1 parameter to do the actual create/term).  G You can specify a process name via CREATE/TERM/PROCESS=name.  You could D use the process name to determine which terminal you're "in" and set? privs, define the appropriate logicals, etc. in your LOGIN.COM.   @ I believe [.dt.sessions]sessionetc.com is invoked as part of theC DECwindows login so you may be able to automate some of the startup  procedures there.   D I don't think you can specify which workspace to put a window in - ID think it always goes to the current workspace.  But you could createG a .COM for each workspace to generate the usual windows you want there.    Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOV H Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Nov 2005 20:41:34 GMT. From: JONESD@ecr6.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)T Subject: Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive sessio: Message-ID: <dmiedu$hnb$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  C References: <1133289443.318788.201330@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> ' Organization: The Ohio State University   C In message <1133289443.318788.201330@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,     "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com> writes:G >Is there any reliable way to tell the difference between an FT session G >that is actually connected to a DECterm or SSH terminal emulator (like G >PuTTy) and an FT session created for a non-terminal session DECWindows 
 >application?   I For FT devices, the field holding internal PID of the job whose bytlm was N charged for the UCB (UCB$L_CPID) overlays UCB$L_LOCKID, so you can retrieve itM using sys$getdvi with the LOCKID item code.  You can convert the internal PID O to an external PID and then sleuth the process that created the pseudo-terminal ' (e.g. DECW$TE_xxxx would be a decterm).       < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 271-6718- Ohio State University        |      Internet: L 140 W. 19th St.              |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 15:01:20 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) T Subject: Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive sessio3 Message-ID: <S6RhSqv3knVF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <dmiedu$hnb$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, JONESD@ecr6.ohio-state.edu (David Jones) writes:   K > For FT devices, the field holding internal PID of the job whose bytlm was P > charged for the UCB (UCB$L_CPID) overlays UCB$L_LOCKID, so you can retrieve itO > using sys$getdvi with the LOCKID item code.  You can convert the internal PID Q > to an external PID and then sleuth the process that created the pseudo-terminal ) > (e.g. DECW$TE_xxxx would be a decterm).    Neat !!!   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 10:37:23 -0800 From: "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com>S Subject: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive session?? C Message-ID: <1133289443.318788.201330@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F Because of the complications of the various sources of FT device typesG logging in on VMS, there are some times when I would like to be able to B have SYS$SYLOGIN execute a SET TERM/INQUIRE and others where it is! absolutely the wrong thing to do.   F Is there any reliable way to tell the difference between an FT sessionF that is actually connected to a DECterm or SSH terminal emulator (likeF PuTTy) and an FT session created for a non-terminal session DECWindows application?  G I'm wondering if there's something buried in the DEVCHARx or DEVDEPENDx  info that would give me a hint?   D I searched the archives but I didn't find any answers other than theD workaround of skipping set term/inquire for FT devices.   Has anyoneE figured out how to detect that an FT device is associated with an SSH # connection?  That would be a start.    Thanks for any help on this,   Robert Boyd    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 10:45:33 -0800 From: "R Boyd" <bob@hax.com>W Subject: Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive session?? C Message-ID: <1133289933.493108.221180@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   C Here's a code fragment I've used many many years ago -- but I don't G have any documentation to spell out why this worked, so I can't tell if > this is meaningful with current versions of DECWindows and SSH   $! detect_decterm.com > $! If the terminal type is unknown, do a set term/inquire even* $! though it clears the type-ahead buffer.# $  if f$getdvi("tt","devtype").eq.0  $  THEN  $      set term/inquire  $  ELSE  $    if L ((f$getdvi("tt","tt_drcs").eqs."FALSE").and.(f$getdvi("tt","devtype").eq.1))	 $    THEN ? $       this_node=f$edit(f$getsyi("SCSNODE"),"upcase,collapse") A $       username=f$edit(f$getjpi(0,"USERNAME"),"upcase,collapse") @ $       write sys$output "<ESC>]2L;*** ''this_node'::''username'
 ***<ESC>\"@ $       write sys$output "<ESC>]21;*** ''this_node'::''username'
 ***<ESC>\"	 $    else  $       set term/inquire
 $    ENDIF $  endif   > H > Is there any reliable way to tell the difference between an FT sessionH > that is actually connected to a DECterm or SSH terminal emulator (likeH > PuTTy) and an FT session created for a non-terminal session DECWindows > application? > I > I'm wondering if there's something buried in the DEVCHARx or DEVDEPENDx ! > info that would give me a hint?  >    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 17:08:21 -0800! From: kenneth.randell@verizon.net W Subject: Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive session?? C Message-ID: <1133312901.060322.156400@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    John Malmberg wrote: > F > All my terminals and emulators are at least VT300 compliant, and theI > /REGIS characteristics do not seem to be used by any application that I  > have.  >   F So you aren't using $EDIT/FDL to design your indexed files and looking at the pretty graphs?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:15:16 -0500 7 From: John Malmberg <malmberg@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec> Y Subject: Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive session?? s . Message-ID: <Z82jf.246$qc.21@news.cpqcorp.net>  
 R Boyd wrote: H > Because of the complications of the various sources of FT device typesI > logging in on VMS, there are some times when I would like to be able to D > have SYS$SYLOGIN execute a SET TERM/INQUIRE and others where it is# > absolutely the wrong thing to do.  > H > Is there any reliable way to tell the difference between an FT sessionH > that is actually connected to a DECterm or SSH terminal emulator (likeH > PuTTy) and an FT session created for a non-terminal session DECWindows > application?  F I simply do not use SET TERM/INQUIRE in login scripts.  It slows down F the script and if I type before it completes the inquiry, what I type 5 gets lost, and the terminal type gets set to unknown.   D All my terminals and emulators are at least VT300 compliant, and theH /REGIS characteristics do not seem to be used by any application that I  have.   - $ is_terminal = f$getdvi("sys$command","TRM")  $ mode = f$mode()  $! $ if mode .eqs. "Interactive"  $ then $     if is_terminal
 $     then& $	! You are a real interactive session- $	if f$getdvi("SYS$COMMAND","devtype") .eq. 0  $	then2 $	    ! you do not know your terminal type already $	    set term/inquire $!5 $!	    Note, if you know that your terminal type will 5 $!	    always be a VTxxx series, it is much faster to 5 $!	    just set the terminal to that type than to use  $!	    /inquire. $! $	    set term/insert  $	else6 $!	    ! The system thinks it knows what terminal type7 $!	    ! you have.  In most cases it is probably right.  $	endif 
 $     else? $       ! You are probably an X-11 session with out a terminal.  $     endif  $ endif    -John ! malmberg@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec  Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:03:56 -0800 4 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com>Y Subject: Re: Q: How can I detect that an FT device type is a real interactive session?? s % Message-ID: <1133294613.146318@smirk>   
 R Boyd wrote: H > Because of the complications of the various sources of FT device typesI > logging in on VMS, there are some times when I would like to be able to D > have SYS$SYLOGIN execute a SET TERM/INQUIRE and others where it is# > absolutely the wrong thing to do.   > I would like some additional information about the "terminal".A When I log in, I have to spend quite a bit of time futzing around > setting all the terminal sizes and characteristics on all four< of the window "panes".   For instance, on pane three, I keep= four DECterms open for working on a particular project.   Two < of them are 90x40 characters, have SYSPRV enabled, broadcast9 disabled, and are set to the project's default directory. @ The other two windows on this "pane" are set to different sizes,< positions, directories, etc.   In addition, each one needs a: different set of logical names defined.   To top it off, I9 want some set to tiny characters and others set to large.   > Every time I log in, the FT device numbers are different, so I= cannot use that.   It would be really nice if there were some ) way to automate this setup at login time.   = If I knew which "pane" (is this the correct term?) a terminal 2 were on, and which window it was, I could do this.  ; Another nice thing would be the ability to set the position ; and state (minimized or maximized) of the DECterm from DCL. 9 I would do this with the old VWS software by using escape 
 sequences.   Alan Frisbie   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:05:12 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>/ Subject: Re: question about set file/attributes + Message-ID: <438BB757.7F07962B@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote: 3 > > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:  > > > < > > > In article <3urq90FvnvpjU1@individual.net>, Paul Sture# > > > <paul.sture@decus.ch> writes:  > > >  > > > > $ @FOO.COM/OUT=TB > > > > $ convert/fdl=nl: T * ! convert to variable instead of VFC > > > 7 > > > Why can't I do the same thing with SET FILE/ATTR?  > > J > > Because changing the attributes of a file does not change the contentsK > > of the file, only how RMS will attempt to interpret those contents when  > > you try to read the file.  > G > Right. When you write a file, you write it in a particular format and F > it specifies what format was used in the attributes part of the fileG > header. Now, when some application later reads this file, it needs to G > know the format. RMS gets this information from the attributes in the I > file header. So if you want to convert a file from one type to another, E > you must change both the format of the file and the file attributes  > data in the file header. > @ > SET FILE/ATTRIBUTES changes ONLY what the file header says theG > attributes are, i.e., the metadata in the fileheader. It is useful if F > you come across a file whose "attributes" are "incorrect"; i.e., theH > attributes specified in the file header are not the TRUE attributes of > the file.   G Hey - here's one that will "bake your noodle", as the lady in the first : "Matrix" movie said (this actually happens to me at work):  E A file whose EOF size is around 1572864, contains <CR> delimited data - and a <LF> as the very last byte in the file.   D The file's record format shows as Stream_LF. Hence, RMS sees it as a? single 3/4-gigabyte record - even DUMP/RECORD will choke on it.    Is the file "corrupt"?  C What, in your opinion, should be the correct record format setting?    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:22:31 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>/ Subject: Re: question about set file/attributes G Message-ID: <Y9CdnV2Kzpj1JhbenZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:    ...   G > A file whose EOF size is around 1572864, contains <CR> delimited data / > and a <LF> as the very last byte in the file.  > F > The file's record format shows as Stream_LF. Hence, RMS sees it as aA > single 3/4-gigabyte record - even DUMP/RECORD will choke on it.  >  > Is the file "corrupt"?  E That depends on what its creator's intent was - but unless it was to  6 create a single humongous record, the answer is 'yes'.   > E > What, in your opinion, should be the correct record format setting?   C If the data really *is* <CR>-delimited, then the answer is clearly  C Stream_CR (or undefined, if it's not intended to be interpreted by  H anything but block I/O).  Whether RMS-32 will have any problem with the G last byte not being followed by a delimiter if it's called Stream_CR I  ( don't know, but I'd suspect it wouldn't.  E There's no possibility that the file actually uses <CR><LF> pairs as  D delimiters, is there?  IIRC that's a legitimate RMS format (Stream).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:36:40 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>/ Subject: Re: question about set file/attributes + Message-ID: <438D1038.74F4E68A@comcast.net>    Bill Todd wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  >  > ...  > I > > A file whose EOF size is around 1572864, contains <CR> delimited data 1 > > and a <LF> as the very last byte in the file.  > > H > > The file's record format shows as Stream_LF. Hence, RMS sees it as aC > > single 3/4-gigabyte record - even DUMP/RECORD will choke on it.  > >  > > Is the file "corrupt"? > F > That depends on what its creator's intent was - but unless it was to8 > create a single humongous record, the answer is 'yes'. >  > > G > > What, in your opinion, should be the correct record format setting?  > D > If the data really *is* <CR>-delimited, then the answer is clearlyD > Stream_CR (or undefined, if it's not intended to be interpreted byI > anything but block I/O).  Whether RMS-32 will have any problem with the H > last byte not being followed by a delimiter if it's called Stream_CR I* > don't know, but I'd suspect it wouldn't. > F > There's no possibility that the file actually uses <CR><LF> pairs asF > delimiters, is there?  IIRC that's a legitimate RMS format (Stream).  F Privacy and HIPAA requirements prevent me from posting a DUMP segment. The content is HL7 data.    F I can tell you that it would look something like this in a "raw" form:  h SomeData<CR>SomeMoreData<CR>YetMoreData<CR>StillMoreData<CR>EvenMoreData<CR>EnoughAlreadyWithTheData<LF>   Rather a tough call, really.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:32:14 -0700 4 From: Norman Lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>+ Subject: Re: rdb5.1 and fortran date type ? * Message-ID: <438CE4FE.7031B85A@oracle.com>  , I'd suggest getting in touch with Oracle Rdb+ support directly.  I'm sure that they'll be / able to assist you with CDD and Rdb precompiler 0 issues.  You may also want to consider upgrading/ to supported VMS and Rdb versions at some point 
 in time...   kyle katarn wrote: >  > Hello, > ! > format for date_vms for RDB 5.1  > ; > We are trying to remove the CDD on an Fortran application  > (VMS 6.2, RDB 5.1 on AXP). > 5 > There is a problem with the RDB date type DATE_VMS.  > 7 > The SQL$PRE accept SQL_DATE_VMS (which is REAL*8) and , > a OBJ is well generate (for .SFO programs)- > (i found that in the sql$example directory)  > 6 > For fortran program (wich use DICTinary but not SQL)8 > the frotran builder don't accept SQL_DATE_VMS but only	 > REAL*8.  > 2 > Pb : the type REAL*8 is not accepted by SQL$PRE. > ' > So, i had to create 2 include files : ) > one for the .SFO program (SQL_DATE_VMS) # > one for the .FOR program (RAL*8).  > - > is-there a solution to avoid this problem ? ! > (and use only one include file)  > 
 > thanks !   --  	 - - - - - 0  opinions expressed here are mine and mine alone.  and certainly are not intended in any way to 0  express or represent any opinions or commitment  of oracle corporation.   *  norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 08:35:31 -0800- From: "dickon champion" <d.champion@rl.ac.uk> & Subject: Re: SSH password expiry fixedC Message-ID: <1133282131.017784.148470@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   C I forgot to say that you have to have the ECO patches for tcpip 5.4  installed for it to work.....    dc  
 R Boyd wrote: G > I will give it a try today -- I have held off broadcasting the use of I > PuTTy to SSH enabled systems just because of the possible problems with   > password expiration weirdness. >  > Thanks for the notice! >  > Robert >  > d.champion@rl.ac.uk wrote: >  > > you can now set  > > ( > > allowvms(non)loginwithexpiredpw  yes > > J > > in the config file and when a user logs in with an expired password itJ > > will allow the packets to be exchanged properly and a new password canG > > be set by the user. i have tested this on my system and it seems to K > > work. if other people could test it i think they would be happy to hear 
 > > from you.  > > + > > see the link below for more information  > > X > > http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/wishlist/ssh2-password-expiry.html > >  > > *HOORAY* > > 
 > > dickon   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:57:03 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>$ Subject: Re: System services and DCL+ Message-ID: <438BB56F.C73FEBC0@comcast.net>    Tom Linden wrote:  > 6 > On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:30:24 -0600, David J Dachtera$ > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: >  > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >>A > >> In article <43877B61.169894D8@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera ( > >> <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > >>$ > >> > Well, how 'bout, for example: > >> > > >> > $ x = F$SYSCALL( -  > >> >       "routine_name", -( > >> >       "DESCRIPTOR=symbol_name", -' > >> >       "REFERENCE=symbol_name", -  > >> >       "VALUE=expression"  > >> >               . > >> >               . > >> >               . > >> >       ) > >>E > >> At that point, one might as well use a compiled language and get F > >> the performance advantages as well.  By choosing a strongly typed: > >> compiled language one even gets detection of defects. > > H > > ...except that compiled languages do not integrate well with DCL (noB > > provision for "F$USLF()" (User Supplied Lexical Function(s))). > >  > How does bash do it?  G How does bash do what? Isn't bash just another interpretive shell, like  DCL?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:50:37 +0000 ( From: "Alan Fay" <alan_fay@symantec.com>? Subject: VERITAS NetBackup 5.0 MP5 OpenVMS Client now available 4 Message-ID: <dmhiok$fm1$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>     2   VERITAS NetBackup 5.0 MP5 OpenVMS Client Release.   --------------------------------------------   E   The downloadable NetBackup 5.0 MP5 (Maintenance Pack Five) OpenVMS  4   Client release is now available for VAX and Alpha.   F   Please see the full release notes in the NetBackup 5.0 User's Guide 7   for OpenVMS which is available from VERITAS support:-    D   ftp://ftp.emea.veritas.com/pub/support/Products/NetBackup_OpenVMS/       nbu_v5_0_vms_pdf.zip     
   Alan Fay   Symantec Corporation   Roseville Engineering          ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 03:22:15 -0800= From: "SanthoshfromJay@gmail.com" <SanthoshfromJay@gmail.com> # Subject: VMS performance parameters C Message-ID: <1133263335.627724.317060@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Hi ,  E   OPen VMS monitor utility let us know curent , average , max and min F values of various performance parameters like Direct I/O ,  page faultF rate , buffered I/O , CPU tick rate etc .. I have a fair idea of theseE parameters  but i know less about  the optimum or threshold values of  these parameters .  G LIke..   if monitor output says that  direct I/O rate (average) is  3.8 G  then  how can i judge it is  a matter  of concern or not . basically i C want to know the threshold  values of important parameters(cpu tick F rate, page fault , direct I/O , dir data hit % , split transfer rate )D . I also want to know which are prime parametrs to be considered forG the performance management .   I reffered the HP open VMS documentation < for the threshold values of these parameters but  no luck ..  , Can someone(VMS expert)  help me out ... :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 05:18:10 -0800 From: bill@wcschmidt.com' Subject: Re: VMS performance parameters B Message-ID: <1133270290.659525.95270@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  B I would be more concerned with I/O queue length, and possible diskA fragmentation, data placement on drives, along with enabling disk  cache.  E Tuning VMS is more of an art, than hard numbers, most of this depends 3 on the applications that are installed and running.    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 05:38:28 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com ' Subject: Re: VMS performance parameters B Message-ID: <1133271507.977115.18570@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  ; most vms systems require little tuning except for some user > parameters (i.e. WS) ... and apps give you required parameters; in the directions ... buy raxco performance suite and watch  your performance sizzle ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:50:37 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>' Subject: Re: VMS performance parameters + Message-ID: <438D137D.8A200B48@comcast.net>   " "SanthoshfromJay@gmail.com" wrote: >  > Hi , > G >   OPen VMS monitor utility let us know curent , average , max and min H > values of various performance parameters like Direct I/O ,  page faultH > rate , buffered I/O , CPU tick rate etc .. I have a fair idea of theseG > parameters  but i know less about  the optimum or threshold values of  > these parameters . > I > LIke..   if monitor output says that  direct I/O rate (average) is  3.8 I >  then  how can i judge it is  a matter  of concern or not . basically i E > want to know the threshold  values of important parameters(cpu tick H > rate, page fault , direct I/O , dir data hit % , split transfer rate )F > . I also want to know which are prime parametrs to be considered forI > the performance management .   I reffered the HP open VMS documentation > > for the threshold values of these parameters but  no luck .. > . > Can someone(VMS expert)  help me out ... :-)  3 Well, I think Ian's post hits the nail on the head.   D That said, you should really read up on VMS Performance Management.   @ This will take you to the OpenVMS on-line documentation website:  http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/doc  A Find the link on the left-hand side that reads "OpenVMS operating B system", click it, and on the page it pulls up, find the links for! "OpenVMS Performance Management".   ? All of these metrics will be items that you will get to know by C observing your system in action. Once you are familiar with what it G does, you can then begin to explore ways to improve it. First, however, @ you must understand what you are seeing and that simply comes by learning your system.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:44:53 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: VMS web site bug + Message-ID: <438D201F.D43F548@teksavvy.com>   A http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/doc  gets me the documentation page.   H http://www.hp.com/go/vms/doc  gets me some random user registration pageH for I have no idea what purpose. Oh, I tried again and this time it gave me a "page not found".    E Shouldn't  go/vms  give me the same options as that longer go/openvms 
 thing ???????     B Also, is there a list of shortcuts one can add after the go/vms or go/openvms ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:30:48 -0700 4 From: Norman Lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>2 Subject: Re: Will Oracle RDB 7.0 run on VMS 7.3-1?* Message-ID: <438CE4A8.97F6CAB4@oracle.com>  - I'd suggest first reviewing the rdb supported - versions maxtrix at www.oracle.com/rdb.  That . shows you the minimum and maximum VMS versions for various Rdb releases.   + The current Rdb 70 release supports OpenVMS + Alpha from V6.1 through V8.2.  I would also + strongly urge that you use either V7.3-2 or  V8.2 of VMS.   ade@nowhere.com wrote: > F > We currently have an Alpha system running VMS 7.1-1H1 and may have aI > project that requires upgrading to at least 7.3-1. Will the RDB product K > still run OK on the newer version? The documentation on Oracles site just L > mentions VMS Alpha V6.1 or greater, but Oracle being Oracle, I thought I'd! > ask those who might know better  > 	 > Thanks,  >  > Ade    --  	 - - - - - 0  opinions expressed here are mine and mine alone.  and certainly are not intended in any way to 0  express or represent any opinions or commitment  of oracle corporation.   *  norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 05:07:13 -0800 From: bill@wcschmidt.com2 Subject: Re: Will Oracle RDB 7.0 run on VMS 7.3-1?C Message-ID: <1133269633.145912.238550@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   D RDB 7.0 is not an issue on VMS7.3-?, I would be more concerned about6 the other software products these you can check out at  5 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/swroll/73-2.HTML    Bill Schmidt   ade@nowhere.com wrote:F > We currently have an Alpha system running VMS 7.1-1H1 and may have aI > project that requires upgrading to at least 7.3-1. Will the RDB product K > still run OK on the newer version? The documentation on Oracles site just L > mentions VMS Alpha V6.1 or greater, but Oracle being Oracle, I thought I'd! > ask those who might know better  > 	 > Thanks,  >  > Ade    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Nov 2005 10:48:21 -0800, From: "rcyoung" <rcyoung@aliconsultants.com>2 Subject: Re: Will Oracle RDB 7.0 run on VMS 7.3-1?C Message-ID: <1133290101.363399.227360@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   G Should not be a problem. Rdb is very nice that way. The V6.1 or greater - is largely the Y2K issues of a few years ago.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 04:07:39 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 5 Subject: Re: [ORACLE 10G] Installing on OpenVMS Alpha / Message-ID: <11oo6h1607uk76@corp.supernews.com>    Martin Vorlaender wrote:* > Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: > " >>Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: >>K >>>I find the recommendation of SYSGEN PQL_Mxxxxx values uhhhm interesting. G >>>I understand CHANNELCNT and UAF parameters, but not the SYSGEN PQL_M 
 >>>hammer. >>C >>The PQL_M* parameters are minimums for processes created without  + >>LOGINOUT, so I don't see their relavence?  >  > I > As Oracle creates a lot of detached processes, and seemingly from a lot J > of places in their code, they suggest PQL_M* adjustments for performanceG > reasons instead of going through the hassle to work out decent quotas 7 > for each and every ORA* process. A big hammer indeed.  >  > cu, 
 >   Martin  G I would think that the PQL_D* parameters would be more appropriate for  ) such?  Am I misunderstanding their usage?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:39:28 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>5 Subject: Re: [ORACLE 10G] Installing on OpenVMS Alpha + Message-ID: <438D10E0.588DF2F4@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > Martin Vorlaender wrote:, > > Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: > > $ > >>Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: > >>M > >>>I find the recommendation of SYSGEN PQL_Mxxxxx values uhhhm interesting. I > >>>I understand CHANNELCNT and UAF parameters, but not the SYSGEN PQL_M  > >>>hammer. > >>D > >>The PQL_M* parameters are minimums for processes created without- > >>LOGINOUT, so I don't see their relavence?  > >  > > K > > As Oracle creates a lot of detached processes, and seemingly from a lot L > > of places in their code, they suggest PQL_M* adjustments for performanceI > > reasons instead of going through the hassle to work out decent quotas 9 > > for each and every ORA* process. A big hammer indeed.  > >  > > cu,  > >   Martin > H > I would think that the PQL_D* parameters would be more appropriate for+ > such?  Am I misunderstanding their usage?   H Well, remember that the "D" stands for "Default", and the "M" stands forF "Miminum" In PQL_D and PQL_M, respectively. The Minimums over-ride theA Default (or UAF) quotas only when the Minimum is greater than the  Default (or UAF) quota.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:28:05 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 5 Subject: Re: [ORACLE 10G] Installing on OpenVMS Alpha 0 Message-ID: <11oqagrkmculu91@corp.supernews.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >  >>Martin Vorlaender wrote: >>+ >>>Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  >>>  >>> $ >>>>Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: >>>> >>>>M >>>>>I find the recommendation of SYSGEN PQL_Mxxxxx values uhhhm interesting. I >>>>>I understand CHANNELCNT and UAF parameters, but not the SYSGEN PQL_M  >>>>>hammer. >>>>D >>>>The PQL_M* parameters are minimums for processes created without- >>>>LOGINOUT, so I don't see their relavence?  >>>  >>> J >>>As Oracle creates a lot of detached processes, and seemingly from a lotK >>>of places in their code, they suggest PQL_M* adjustments for performance H >>>reasons instead of going through the hassle to work out decent quotas8 >>>for each and every ORA* process. A big hammer indeed. >>>  >>>cu, >>>  Martin  >>H >>I would think that the PQL_D* parameters would be more appropriate for+ >>such?  Am I misunderstanding their usage?  >  > J > Well, remember that the "D" stands for "Default", and the "M" stands forH > "Miminum" In PQL_D and PQL_M, respectively. The Minimums over-ride theC > Default (or UAF) quotas only when the Minimum is greater than the  > Default (or UAF) quota.  >   G Right.  So leave the minimums alone, and set the defaults for what you  I need.  That's what you'll get.  At least, that's the way I've been doing   it for the last 25 years.   G I had a customer that thought the M stood for MAX.  She set one of the  F parameters extremely high, and the system almost came to a standstill.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.666 ************************