1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 01 Oct 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 547       Contents: Re: CREATE file  Re: CREATE file  Re: CREATE file  Re: CREATE file  Re: CREATE file  Re: CREATE file  Re: CREATE file  Re: CREATE file  Re: CREATE file  Re: CREATE file 0 Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?0 Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?4 Re: freeware openVMS plugin for Microsoft Virtual PC Re: HP : Moving forward  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius Re: Quotation marks  Re: Quotation marks  Re: Quotation marks  Re: Quotation marks ( Re: Thought you would enjoy this posting( Re: Thought you would enjoy this posting( Re: Thought you would enjoy this posting Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Vamp Hacked! Re: Vamp Hacked! Re: VMS on the |nquirer  Re: VMS on the |nquirer  Re: VMS on the |nquirer  Re: VMS on the |nquirer  Re: VMS on the |nquirer 6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 RE: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 RE: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?4 Re: [Q] DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:46:53 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> Subject: Re: CREATE file= Message-ID: <hSe%e.20808$VI6.20623@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    Simon Clubley wrote: > / >>%CREATE-E-READERR, error reading SYS$INPUT:.;  >>-RMS-F-RER, file read error $ >>-SYSTEM-W-DATAOVERUN, data overrun >>4 >>I tried $ SET TERM/WIDTH=511/WRAP  but same result >>
 >>What to do?  >  >  > Try: >  > 	$ set term/hostsync  G But you may also need to put the typeahahead buffers up. Sysgen params  H tty_typahdsz and alttypahdsz (set ter/alt) or something close enough to C that to find in the docs. Buffers can overrun with the default VMS  K values if the sender does not respond (quickly enough or at all) to an XOFF    > Simon. >    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:45:40 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Re: CREATE file( Message-ID: <opsxxfmehnzgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:15:26 GMT, Hoff Hoffman <hoff@hp.nospam> wrote:  J > In article <opsxxb960bzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  	 > writes:  > I >   Something somewhere within the cut-and-paste is apparently eating the G >   line endings, or there are no line endings within same.  Obviously.  > I >   Some of the mail servers I've seen use run-on lines in mail messages. K >   (I haven't checked if this is legal within the RFCs, but I do know that H >   various SMTP servers do have line length limits -- I don't know what7 >   the SMTP line length limits are, if any are cited.)  > K >   Try this using the VTstar terminal emulator available off the Freeware, J >   as a test of Putty, then try this with a non-SSH session or similar --J >   look to see if this is something in the user interface, within the SSHI >   implementation, in the terminal emulator, or in the processing of the  >   command itself.  > H >   Also try saving the message from the particular mail client out into# >   one of the MS-DOS line formats.  > I >   I'd also try forwarding the message from the Windows 2000 mail client K >   over to the OpenVMS box, and I'd try a few different mail clients, too.   J  From the PuTTY window which is SSH'd to a 7.3-2 system I connect to a 7.3H system with SET HOST and now no problem, so obviously there is somethingK set on the latter that needs to be set on the former.  How do I compare the & two, and what should I be looking for?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:53:57 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Re: CREATE file( Message-ID: <opsxxfz7ttzgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:45:40 -0700, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  K > From the PuTTY window which is SSH'd to a 7.3-2 system I connect to a 7.3 J > system with SET HOST and now no problem, so obviously there is somethingK > set on the latter that needs to be set on the former.  How do I compare    > the ( > two, and what should I be looking for?     Strike that, was mistaken.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:31:49 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> Subject: Re: CREATE file< Message-ID: <pwf%e.19209$iW5.9204@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   Tom Linden wrote:    >  > L >  From the PuTTY window which is SSH'd to a 7.3-2 system I connect to a 7.3J > system with SET HOST and now no problem, so obviously there is somethingM > set on the latter that needs to be set on the former.  How do I compare the ( > two, and what should I be looking for?  C Further to my previous response Kermit recommends the following to   resolve this problem   MIN_TTY_TYPAHDSZ = 2064   H You may find another workaround but this should work. SET TTY/ALT might = be enough without a sysgen change depending on current value.  --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 11:35:28 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: CREATE fileC Message-ID: <1128105328.711894.136640@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Tom Linden wrote: 8 > Occasionally we will receive a code fragment by email,5 > which is read on a W2K box.  It would be convenient 9 > to cut and paste into a window running Putty and logged  > in to a VMS box. > 7 > Now, I can cut and paste from the same window or from 9 > another PuTTY window logged into anothe VMS without any 6 > problems, but if I try to do so it causes a problem.    F I think you just contradicted yourself here. Oh, your copying the code/ snippet from a Windows email client window? OK.     8 > For example, if I cut and paste the first paragraph to+ > a PuTTY window logged in to VMS via SSH :  >  >  > HAFNER> create scratch8 > Occasionally we will receive a code fragment by email,5 > which is read on a W2K box.  It would be convenient  > to cut and paste into a wi/ > %CREATE-E-READERR, error reading SYS$INPUT:.;  > -RMS-F-RER, file read error $ > -SYSTEM-W-DATAOVERUN, data overrun >  > 4 > which means that it is expecting 132 char records? > 4 > I tried $ SET TERM/WIDTH=511/WRAP  but same result > 
 > What to do?     F I'd open a new file with EVE, paste, exit EVE. (This works better than EDT with hostsync set.)   @ Then I'd open the file again with EDT and clean it up if needed.  D I can see at least one potential problem: Windows windows often haveA very long lines of text that if you're lucky are actually wrapped F properly by the app. You may have to manually cut up such lines on the? VMS side. I'm all ears if someone has a better way to deal with 1 too-long lines copied from Windows to a VMS file!    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:41:25 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> Subject: Re: CREATE file< Message-ID: <pFf%e.32525$RW.14109@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   Alan Greig wrote:   J > You may find another workaround but this should work. SET TTY/ALT might   9 Good grief I'm back in TOPS-10 land :-) SET TER obviously   ? > be enough without a sysgen change depending on current value.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 13:51:03 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net>  Subject: Re: CREATE fileB Message-ID: <1128113463.133062.80590@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  
 AEF wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: : > > Occasionally we will receive a code fragment by email,7 > > which is read on a W2K box.  It would be convenient ; > > to cut and paste into a window running Putty and logged  > > in to a VMS box. > > 9 > > Now, I can cut and paste from the same window or from ; > > another PuTTY window logged into anothe VMS without any 8 > > problems, but if I try to do so it causes a problem. >  > H > I think you just contradicted yourself here. Oh, your copying the code1 > snippet from a Windows email client window? OK.  >  > : > > For example, if I cut and paste the first paragraph to- > > a PuTTY window logged in to VMS via SSH :  > >  > >  > > HAFNER> create scratch: > > Occasionally we will receive a code fragment by email,7 > > which is read on a W2K box.  It would be convenient  > > to cut and paste into a wi1 > > %CREATE-E-READERR, error reading SYS$INPUT:.;  > > -RMS-F-RER, file read error & > > -SYSTEM-W-DATAOVERUN, data overrun > >  > > 6 > > which means that it is expecting 132 char records? > > 6 > > I tried $ SET TERM/WIDTH=511/WRAP  but same result > >  > > What to do?  >  > & > I'd open a new file with EVE, paste,    D Pasting into an editor has always worked for me and I've never had a
 data overrun.   # > exit EVE. (This works better than  > EDT with hostsync set.) B > Then I'd open the file again with EDT and clean it up if needed. >   % Or, just stay in EVE and clean it up.   F > I can see at least one potential problem: Windows windows often haveC > very long lines of text that if you're lucky are actually wrapped H > properly by the app. You may have to manually cut up such lines on theA > VMS side. I'm all ears if someone has a better way to deal with 3 > too-long lines copied from Windows to a VMS file!   C If you've $SET TERM tt:/NOWRAP and EVE is SET NOWRAP, then the only G cleanup to do will be on the lines that were cobbled in the source doc.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:01:19 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam>  Subject: Re: CREATE file+ Message-ID: <1tj%e.19376$wg7.7150@fe06.lga>    Tom Linden wrote: 8 > Occasionally we will receive a code fragment by email,5 > which is read on a W2K box.  It would be convenient 9 > to cut and paste into a window running Putty and logged  > in to a VMS box. > 7 > Now, I can cut and paste from the same window or from 9 > another PuTTY window logged into anothe VMS without any 6 > problems, but if I try to do so it causes a problem. > 8 > For example, if I cut and paste the first paragraph to+ > a PuTTY window logged in to VMS via SSH :  >  >  > HAFNER> create scratch8 > Occasionally we will receive a code fragment by email,5 > which is read on a W2K box.  It would be convenient  > to cut and paste into a wi/ > %CREATE-E-READERR, error reading SYS$INPUT:.;  > -RMS-F-RER, file read error $ > -SYSTEM-W-DATAOVERUN, data overrun >  > 4 > which means that it is expecting 132 char records? > 4 > I tried $ SET TERM/WIDTH=511/WRAP  but same result > 
 > What to do?   I It must be your SSH/TCP/PuTTY ... I just copied your entire post from my  F Windows newsreader and pasted it int a PuTTY terminal window on a VMS . system running OpenVMS 7.3-2, TCPIP 5.4 ECO 4:     $ create scratch6 Occasionally we will receive a code fragment by email,3 which is read on a W2K box.  It would be convenient 7 to cut and paste into a window running Putty and logged  in to a VMS box.  5 Now, I can cut and paste from the same window or from 7 another PuTTY window logged into anothe VMS without any 4 problems, but if I try to do so it causes a problem.  6 For example, if I cut and paste the first paragraph to) a PuTTY window logged in to VMS via SSH :      HAFNER> create scratch6 Occasionally we will receive a code fragment by email,3 which is read on a W2K box.  It would be convenient  to cut and paste into a wi- %CREATE-E-READERR, error reading SYS$INPUT:.;  -RMS-F-RER, file read error " -SYSTEM-W-DATAOVERUN, data overrun    2 which means that it is expecting 132 char records?  2 I tried $ SET TERM/WIDTH=511/WRAP  but same result   What to do?      Exit $ type scratch.;6 Occasionally we will receive a code fragment by email,3 which is read on a W2K box.  It would be convenient 7 to cut and paste into a window running Putty and logged  in to a VMS box.  5 Now, I can cut and paste from the same window or from 7 another PuTTY window logged into anothe VMS without any 4 problems, but if I try to do so it causes a problem.  6 For example, if I cut and paste the first paragraph to) a PuTTY window logged in to VMS via SSH :      HAFNER> create scratch6 Occasionally we will receive a code fragment by email,3 which is read on a W2K box.  It would be convenient  to cut and paste into a wi- %CREATE-E-READERR, error reading SYS$INPUT:.;  -RMS-F-RER, file read error " -SYSTEM-W-DATAOVERUN, data overrun    2 which means that it is expecting 132 char records?  2 I tried $ SET TERM/WIDTH=511/WRAP  but same result   What to do?    $    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:36:54 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: CREATE file, Message-ID: <433DE833.F6DB5390@teksavvy.com>  - re: Pasting test in a create command failing.     A You need to make sure that your terminal emulator uses CR as line   terminators when you paste text.  H If you are selecting text from a GUI window, the text-select function ofG your windows platform may only see the raw text in the GUI buffer which # may have just LFs separating lines.   F When you paste it into the terminal emulator window, if there is no CRE separating lines, the CREATE function may see just one very very long J line and at one point, you get a buffer full and/or line too long message.  E Try a test of a 2-3line selection pasted into create, and then try to > dump/record the created file on VMS. You'll see if the pasting$ geneerated one or 2-3 lines of text.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:04:27 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: CREATE file+ Message-ID: <433DEEAA.823C1DEB@comcast.net>    Tom Linden wrote:  > . > On 30 Sep 2005 12:24:42 -0500, Simon Clubley7 > <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:  >  > > Try: > > $ set term/hostsync  >  > Already tried that.   A Make sure your terminal program is set for XON/XOFF flow control.   C /HOSTSYNC *IS* the fix, unless your terminal( program) is not using 	 XON/XOFF.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 12:09:33 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? C Message-ID: <1128107373.250028.325980@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    H Vlems wrote:3 > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht ? > news:1128004522.682818.200010@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  > >  > > H Vlems wrote:I > > > This kind of up/down pattern is what you got when heartbeat was not H > > > enabled on a transceiver when it was needed (or vice versa). SVA-0G > > > indicates a microVAX or VAXstation 3100 kind of system. It wasn't K > > > fitted with an external transceiver, was it? These older systems have  > > < > > Yes. All my MicroVAX systems have external transceivers. > > J > > > AUI and thinwire, no support for UTP; an external transceiver solvesM > > > that problem but the heartbeat switch (or SEQ or squelch) may be in the  > > > wrong position.  > > >  > > > Two other possibilities:J > > > - the system is on an ethernet segment with a *lot* of traffic (LAVc5 > > > clusters, lots of ethertalk or netbeui clients)  > > & > > It was off hours, so probably not. > > M > > > - the system was accidentally converted from an endnode to a router and 3 > > > does not have the appropriate DECnet license.  > > H > > Licenses are okay. This is the first time I've ever seen a node that/ > > dropped itself! How can a node drop itself?  > > > Well, the most common is a license mismatch, like it or not.J > Why don't you post the output of this command, executed on the node that > drops - > itself and one of the others that are fine:  >  > $ MC NCP SHO EXEC CHAR     >From the bad node:   8 Node Volatile Characteristics as of 30-SEP-2005 19:02:24   Executor node = 1.xxx (NODE_X)  6 Identification           = DECnet for OpenVMS VAX V6.1! Management version       = V4.0.0  Incoming timer           = 45  Outgoing timer           = 60 " Incoming Proxy           = Enabled" Outgoing Proxy           = Enabled! NSP version              = V4.1.0  Maximum links            = 256 Delay factor             = 80  Delay weight             = 5 Inactivity timer         = 60  Retransmit factor        = 10 ! Routing version          = V2.0.0 % Type                     = routing IV  Routing timer            = 600 Broadcast routing timer  = 180 Maximum address          = 1023  Maximum circuits         = 16  Maximum cost             = 1022  Maximum hops             = 30  Maximum visits           = 63  Maximum area             = 63  Max broadcast nonrouters = 64  Max broadcast routers    = 32  Maximum path splits      = 1 Area maximum cost        = 1022  Area maximum hops        = 30  Maximum buffers          = 100 Buffer size              = 576! Nonprivileged user id    = DECNET 0 Default access           = incoming and outgoing Pipeline quota           = 4032  Alias maximum links      = 32 ! Path split policy        = Normal  Maximum Declared Objects = 31      >From a good node:   $ NCP SHOW EXEC CHAR    8 Node Volatile Characteristics as of 30-SEP-2005 19:03:21   Executor node = 1.XXX (XXXXX)   6 Identification           = DECnet for OpenVMS VAX V6.1! Management version       = V4.0.0  Incoming timer           = 45  Outgoing timer           = 60 " Incoming Proxy           = Enabled" Outgoing Proxy           = Enabled! NSP version              = V4.1.0  Maximum links            = 256 Delay factor             = 80  Delay weight             = 5 Inactivity timer         = 60  Retransmit factor        = 10 ! Routing version          = V2.0.0 % Type                     = routing IV  Routing timer            = 600 Broadcast routing timer  = 180 Maximum address          = 1023  Maximum circuits         = 16  Maximum cost             = 1022  Maximum hops             = 30  Maximum visits           = 63  Maximum area             = 63  Max broadcast nonrouters = 64  Max broadcast routers    = 32  Maximum path splits      = 1 Area maximum cost        = 1022  Area maximum hops        = 30  Maximum buffers          = 100 Buffer size              = 576! Nonprivileged user id    = DECNET 0 Default access           = incoming and outgoing Pipeline quota           = 4032  Alias maximum links      = 32 ! Path split policy        = Normal  Maximum Declared Objects = 31      No difference.   > M > You did mention that your systems have external transceivers. I assume that  > you've checked the8 > heartbeat switch and found it in the correct position.N > Second assumption: these UTP transceivers run in one mode only: 10 Mb/s half	 > duplex. K > What kind of network device do they connect to and is that network device  > configured forL > 10 Mb/s hd operation? If it is set to autonegotiate then you might want to > override that.  
 10 Mb/s hd   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 12:26:26 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? C Message-ID: <1128108386.410471.304430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   
 AEF wrote: > Colin Butcher wrote:O > > When you talk of "redundancy transceivers" - what make are they? How do the  > > > I'll check tomorrow. I'm at home and can't look at them now.    # OK. Here in NYC we have two brands:   ( CenterCOM 210T twisted pair transceivers   and   ( Madge LE 46T transceiver with redundancy    E It's probably the same in London. They guy I need to talk to there is ; on vacation, and I will soon be on vacation. So stay tuned.     M > > transceivers make a decision to flip over which path they talk over - and M > > back again? How are the switches the transceivers connect to connected to  >  > I don't know.  >  > > the rest of the network? > ' > They are plugged into Cisco switches.   F Oops. Wrong answer. I don't know. We have lots of systems in each dataA center. In London, where the problem is, there are Windows, Unix, D Linux, Stratus, and VMS boxes all connected to the network. The full@ answer to this question would be pretty involved and perhaps not appropriate for public posting.      [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:02:43 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: freeware openVMS plugin for Microsoft Virtual PC + Message-ID: <433DE033.CC995117@comcast.net>    Mister Scary wrote:  > F > It's 75 miles.  Does the $30 disk have what I need to run with SimH?  2 Should be all you need once you have SimH running.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:52:19 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>  Subject: Re: HP : Moving forward+ Message-ID: <433DEBD2.6B840870@comcast.net>    kashe@sonic.net wrote: > 6 > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:11:13 -0500, David J Dachtera$ > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: > ! > >... (is that HIPAA compliant?)  > < >         It's my understanding that Windows was known to beF > non-compliant, but the basic MS argument was, "Do you really want toH > try to get the majority of hospitals and doctors change to another OS?  G Hospitals and doctors don't care about o.s.-es. As long as it has a GUI B that everyone can understand and the database servers have uptimes9 measured with someone beyond an hourglass, they're happy.   C > You know they will slay HIPAA if that's a condition." So the govt < > stamped Windows as compliant and just grandfathered it in.  H I guess they'll have to learn the hardway. Of course, they don't "learn"G really, they just go into denial and blame the hackers instead of their  own ridiculous choices.   & Where I would be going if I were them:   Where we are today:   C Windows <-> Windows+Citrix <-> VMS or AIX + Oracle + backend server 
 components  & Where I would be going if I were them:  A (Windows + Reflection/X) or (Linux + X) <-> VMS or AIX + Oracle + > backend server components + front-end client/server components  D That is, reduce three tiers down to two or less. Let the actual userA application run on the same machine(s) as the middle-ware and the + database. Only the GUI runs on the desktop.   G No more Citrix hassles, and the middle-ware and backend/database remain 8 safely out of the reach of worms, viruses, trojans, etc.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:17:39 +0200 & From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch>& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :+ Message-ID: <3q5hakFd7n9vU1@individual.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:- > In article <433B3C3E.304352A6@comcast.net>, 7 > 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > N >>>                  Where's the US economy?  Near record growth.  Near record >> >>...high... >> >> >>>unemployment.   >  > I > You're the second one in two days to bring up unemployment as a measure ( > of economy.  Let's look at some facts. > 7 >               2005             2004              2003 7 > US            4.9%             5.4%              6.4% 7 > CANADA        6.8%             7.1%              7.2% 7 > GERMANY      11.4%            10.5%              9.8% 7 > FRANCE       10.2%            10.0%              9.8% 7 > UK            4.7%             4.7%              5.1% 7 > JAPAN         4.5%             4.7%              5.3%  > E > Looks like Japan and the UK are the only ones who actually beat the . > US and that by rather insignificant numbers.   UK unemployment stats:  A I cannot speak for the other countries, but going back to the UK  D recession of the early 1980s, there was a definite massaging of the I unemployment statistics by various schemes. Youth Training Scheme (YTS),  F and Youth Opportunites Scheme (YOPS) were 2 which took school leavers B out of the unemployment statistics, and in the late 1980s I heard G numerous tales of people being persuaded by the authorities to sign on  : as sick, also removing them from the unemployment figures.  K I'm afraid I've lost touch with the latest situation, but remain sceptical.    > Especially when you D > consider the difference in the size of the population and the fact@ > that the US still has a high and constant influx of uneducatedA > third-world refugees (both legal and illegal) who help to swell  > the ranks of the unemployed.  > > OK, next red herring!  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:23:03 +0200 & From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch>& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :+ Message-ID: <3q5hknFdadjnU1@individual.net>   , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:X > In article <3q25muFcs3ilU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > ; >>In article <YtJ_e.7026$cq2.778690@news20.bellglobal.com>, . >>	"Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >>6 >>>"Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message > >>>news:6.1.2.0.2.20050928180257.07caca08@raptor.psccos.com... >>> , >>>>At 05:10 PM 9/28/2005, Neil Rieck wrote: >>>  >>>[...snip...]  >>> O >>>>I remember in the late 80's: the Japanese were going to own America.  They  M >>>>made everything cheaper, they had all the money, they *gasp* were buying  H >>>>American real estate and American companies.  Where is the Japanese ? >>>>economy today?  Pretty much still in the tank.  As are the  I >>>>heavily-socialized and government-subsidized economies of France and  M >>>>Germany (and to a lesser extent, the UK).  Where's the US economy?  Near  F >>>>record growth.  Near record unemployment.  With a better-educated  >>>>workforce than ever before.  >>>> >>>  >>>##### >>> L >>>While the value of the yen has dropped by a factor of 4 from the 80's to M >>>now, they have a very high standard of living (which is probably the only  N >>>economic indicator that human beings should pay any attention to) and they @ >>>have no where near the unemployment figures seen in the USA.  >>
 >>Excuse me??  >>6 >>             2005             2004              20037 >>US            4.9%             5.4%              6.4% 7 >>JAPAN         4.5%             4.7%              5.3%  >>I >>Difference seems rather insignificant, especially considering they have J >>half the population the US has and virtually no immigration (immigrationJ >>playing a role in this as it tends to be the un-educated, un-trained and >>un-skilled who emigrate).  >  > N > Last I looked, the vast majority of low-skill (and often illegal) immigrantsJ > came in for off-the-books work, often below minimum wage.  The illegals N > probably aren't showing up in unemployment figures, and if they were, they'd > be showing up as employed. > G But surely there will be a reflection in the unemployment figures from  ; those who would have otherwise done that work on-the-books.    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Sep 05 17:15:57 EDT) From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :! Message-ID: <H+PTrphgCWeF@wvnvms>   e In article <gpZ_e.7449$cq2.864664@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: 8 > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message ' > news:3q25muFcs3ilU2@individual.net...  >> >> Excuse me?? >>7 >>              2005             2004              2003 8 >> US            4.9%             5.4%              6.4%8 >> JAPAN         4.5%             4.7%              5.3% >>J >> Difference seems rather insignificant, especially considering they haveK >> half the population the US has and virtually no immigration (immigration K >> playing a role in this as it tends to be the un-educated, un-trained and  >> un-skilled who emigrate). >>K > Both Canada and the US publish incorrect unemplyment statistics. In both  M > cases the stats are only generated by those people collecting unemployment  K > insurance pay outs; when UI runs out the (statistical) problem magically  + > disappears. Hello "Wal-Mart greeter" job.   J This is simply not true at least in the US (I wouldn't be at all surprisedE if Canada was that screwed up).  Unless I missed a major change since F getting my Economics degree, the "unemployment rate" is defined as theG percentage of the "labor force" which is unemployed.  The "labor force" I consists of those who are employed or actively seeking employment.  It is C true that those collecting unemployment insurance are automatically K included in the percentage, but it also includes those with no unemployment H insurance (either ran out or not eligible) who continue to register with the unemployment agencies.  I Anyone too lazy to remain on the registration rolls doesn't belong in the . statistics since they are likely unemployable.  D I suspect the unemployment rate is actually overstated.  I have knowG numerous people receiving unemployment insurance who actively tried not I to find another job as long as they were receiving unemployment benefits. E My mother, for example, was a seasonal worker who worked about 2/3 of D every year and received unemployment benefits the other 1/3.  If notE for unemployment insurance, she would probably have been able to find 1 a job for the other 1/3, but she didn't even try.   F One person I know with a criminal record and bad work habits goes thruH multiple jobs each year.  The unemployment rate locally is about 5%, butB he never has a problem getting a job anytime he wants one (usuallyG starts the next day).  Another felon (the relative of a friend) now has : a decent paying job less than a year after exiting prison.  E Even though the unemployment rate is 5%, anyone at all who is willing H to work hard and show up on time can have a decent paying (significantlyD higher than minimum wage, but perhaps not enough to support a familyA of four) job.  To put it another way, 5% unemployment should more > properly be seen as full employment.  Many economists actuallyD consider anything below 5 or 6% to be full employment; anything muchF below 5% causes major inflationary pressures.  Employers start biddingH up the wages of the limited number of workers who actually want to work.     George Cook  WVNET    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:24:29 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :9 Message-ID: <dWi%e.2858$l03.599842@news20.bellglobal.com>   7 "George Cook" <cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> wrote in message   news:H+PTrphgCWeF@wvnvms...  >  [...snip...] > L > This is simply not true at least in the US (I wouldn't be at all surprisedG > if Canada was that screwed up).  Unless I missed a major change since H > getting my Economics degree, the "unemployment rate" is defined as theI > percentage of the "labor force" which is unemployed.  The "labor force" K > consists of those who are employed or actively seeking employment.  It is E > true that those collecting unemployment insurance are automatically A > included in the percentage, but it also includes those with no   > unemploymentJ > insurance (either ran out or not eligible) who continue to register with > the unemployment agencies. >   - This is true and an adavnced google search of  Unemployment  and "fall off"> will provide 115,000 page hits of mostly relavent information.   #####    This quote:   M "Millions of jobs lost. First administration since Hoover to have a net loss  M of jobs. Unemployment benefits are running out without there being new jobs,  K so they fall off the unemployment rolls and are not counted. Remember, you  K need 150,000 jobs each month just to account for population increases. The  L unemployment rate is failing to show what the other unemployment statistics 5 clearly show: a bad job market that's getting worse."   + was taken from my very first hit on Google. J Now I know there is a lot of incorrect information on the web; and I know L that a sample of "one" is no sample of all; but check it out and you'll see - this is happening in both the USA and Canada.    #####   K On a related topic, Canada renamed "Unemployment Insurance" to "Employment  L Insurance" because the latter doesn't sound as negative. Also, we no longer L publish "Unemployment Stats" but rather "Employment Stats". The politicians I think we're so stupid (which we are because we elected them) as to think  @ that 94% employment is better than 6% unemployment. What a scam.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:29:46 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :9 Message-ID: <a%i%e.2859$l03.600018@news20.bellglobal.com>   7 "George Cook" <cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> wrote in message   news:H+PTrphgCWeF@wvnvms...  > L > This is simply not true at least in the US (I wouldn't be at all surprisedG > if Canada was that screwed up).  Unless I missed a major change since H > getting my Economics degree, the "unemployment rate" is defined as theI > percentage of the "labor force" which is unemployed.  The "labor force" K > consists of those who are employed or actively seeking employment.  It is E > true that those collecting unemployment insurance are automatically A > included in the percentage, but it also includes those with no   > unemploymentJ > insurance (either ran out or not eligible) who continue to register with > the unemployment agencies. > D Oops, I forgot one point. Economists can do what ever they want but M politicians will always spin economic information the way they wish. Try not  D applying too much logic to their actions. They fiddle while we burn.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 00:03:25 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :6 Message-ID: <00A4A969.556A221C@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  T In article <3q5hknFdadjnU1@individual.net>, Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch> writes:- >Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:  >>   >>  O >> Last I looked, the vast majority of low-skill (and often illegal) immigrants K >> came in for off-the-books work, often below minimum wage.  The illegals  O >> probably aren't showing up in unemployment figures, and if they were, they'd  >> be showing up as employed.  >>  H >But surely there will be a reflection in the unemployment figures from < >those who would have otherwise done that work on-the-books.  J I don't really think so, at that low end.  Sweatshop owners, etc, probablyI wouldn't be hiring illegals if they could get legal workers at the rates  A they're willing to pay - or they'd be hiring fewer legals.  (You  1 have to pay legal workers at least minimum wage.)    -- Alan    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 01:42:56 GMT + From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (leslie) & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :6 Message-ID: <AQl%e.4080$zw5.2588@tornado.texas.rr.com>  * George Cook (cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu) wrote: : L : This is simply not true at least in the US (I wouldn't be at all surprisedG : if Canada was that screwed up).  Unless I missed a major change since H : getting my Economics degree, the "unemployment rate" is defined as theI : percentage of the "labor force" which is unemployed.  The "labor force" K : consists of those who are employed or actively seeking employment.  It is E : true that those collecting unemployment insurance are automatically M : included in the percentage, but it also includes those with no unemployment J : insurance (either ran out or not eligible) who continue to register with : the unemployment agencies. :     4 The official U.S. unemployment rate is the U-3 rate:  1    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t12.htm =    Table A-12. Alternative measures of labor underutilization   >   "U-6 Total unemployed, plus all marginally attached workers,?        plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a >        percent of the civilian labor force plus all marginally        attached workers   ;    U-3 Total unemployed, as a percent of the civilian labor *        force (official unemployment rate)"    B But the U-6 rate, discussed in the following article, is a better 0 representation of the slack in the labor market:  )    http://makeashorterlink.com/?M17342198 G    Boston.com / Business / U.S. jobless rate misses "hidden" unemployed   & The original link, wrapped to 2 lines:  6    http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2004/06/14/,    us_jobless_rate_misses_hidden_unemployed/G    Boston.com / Business / U.S. jobless rate misses "hidden" unemployed   /   "U.S. jobless rate misses "hidden" unemployed     By Reuters  |  June 14, 2004   E    NEW YORK -- Buried inside the official U.S. employment report each H    month is a little-known figure that gives a much less rosy picture of'    the labor market than the headlines.   A    The government agency that produces the data also publishes an I    alternative measure that tries to capture the hidden unemployed, those E    who are not included in the official unemployment rate for various     statistical reasons.   F    That broader measure is dramatically higher, at 9.7 percent in May,3    compared with the official level of 5.6 percent.   F    That's an extra 5.96 million people, in addition to the 8.2 millionG    "officially" unemployed, who are waiting on the sidelines and may at -    some point step back into the labor force.   	    [snip]       DISCOURAGED WORKERS  I    The Labor Department's adjusted measure of unemployment adds in people F    it describes as "marginally attached" to the labor force. These areH    workers who have not actively looked for work in the past four weeks,E    including "discouraged workers" who have given up altogether. They F    also include those who have given up looking for full-time jobs and+    have settled for part-time work instead.   H    None of the unemployment measures include the 1.7 percent of the maleE    wage-earning population who are in prison, or another 1.36 million 6    men, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.  G    "We have had this unprecedented withdrawal from the labor force over B    the past three years," said Lee Price, research director at theE    independent Economic Policy Institute. "The traditional measure of I    labor market slack, the unemployment rate, is giving us a misleadingly     tight picture."  D    Indeed, the labor force participation rate is at its lowest level:    since 1988 -- lower even than in the last recession..."  A The official unemployment rate doesn't reflect the high share of   unemployed:   C    http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_11102004 =    Unemployment rate masks high share of long-term unemployed   "   "Snapshot for November 10, 2004.  =    Unemployment rate masks high share of long-term unemployed E    In March 2002 Congress enacted the Temporary Extended Unemployment E    Compensation (TEUC) program, giving most workers who had exhausted F    their regular unemployment insurance (UI) benefits an additional 13G    weeks of coverage in most states, and an additional 26 weeks in high     unemployment states.   H    When the TEUC program was enacted, the national unemployment rate wasE    5.7%. Of those who were unemployed, 8.5%--about 700,000 unemployed 7    workers--had been unemployed for more than 39 weeks.   D    Share of total unemployed who have been unemployed longer than 39#    weeks, and the unemployment rate   F    As the figure shows, the unemployment rate for the third quarter ofI    2004 was 5.5%--not much lower than when TEUC was enacted. However, the I    share of the unemployed who had been unemployed for more than 39 weeks @    in the third quarter of 2004 was 14.5%, or 1.2 million of theF    unemployed--much higher than when TEUC was enacted. Historically, aD    share this high has been associated with much higher unemploymentG    rates. For example, the share of very long-term unemployed was 16.4% H    in the fourth quarter of 1992 when the unemployment rate was 7.4%--atG    which time extended federal unemployment benefits were available..."    : G : Even though the unemployment rate is 5%, anyone at all who is willing J : to work hard and show up on time can have a decent paying (significantlyF : higher than minimum wage, but perhaps not enough to support a familyC : of four) job.  To put it another way, 5% unemployment should more @ : properly be seen as full employment.  Many economists actuallyF : consider anything below 5 or 6% to be full employment; anything muchH : below 5% causes major inflationary pressures.  Employers start biddingJ : up the wages of the limited number of workers who actually want to work. :   H No, employers start whining to Congress to raise or eliminate H-1B visa  quotas, to keep wages down.   E The H-1B visa program is a another government subsidy (aka "corporate  welfare") per Milton Friedman:  *     http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q2C7236EB7     H-1B Is Just Another Gov't. Subsidy - Computerworld   % The original URL, wrapped to 2 lines:   B     http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/labor/story/     0,10801,72848,00.html 7     H-1B Is Just Another Gov't. Subsidy - Computerworld   E     "...But Nobel economist Milton Friedman scoffs at the idea of the D     government stocking a farm system for the likes of Microsoft andF     Intel. "There is no doubt," he says, "that the [H-1B] program is aG     benefit to their employers, enabling them to get workers at a lower 1     wage, and to that extent, it is a subsidy..."    H The H-1B visa is aso being used to replace American school teachers with cheaper foreign teachers:   # H-1B Visa Gang Wants Teachers' Jobs   /    http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/050826_vfl.htm -    VDARE.com: 08/26/05 - View From Lodi, CA:  7    Look Out Teachers; The H-1B Visa Gang Wants Your Job   I   "...The Filipino teachers are legally in the U.S. on non-immigrant H-1B H    visas. And that fact begs a bigger question: did Clark County exhaustF    every opportunity to hire an American before traveling to the other    side of the globe?   I    Rob Sanchez, who tracks non-immigrant visa issues and is the Webmaster H    for the invaluable www.zazona.com, says school districts fail to lookG    at unemployed local professionals. Many laid off software engineers, B    for example, have gone back to school to get education degrees.  .    Wrote Sanchez in his August 3rd newsletter:  G    "School districts all over the United States are actively recruiting D    foreign teachers for our schools. In this case, Filipino math and>    science teachers on H-1B visas have just arrived in Nevada.  H    I have talked to many engineers and programmers that have been unableG    to get teaching jobs in math and science, despite the fact that they D    went back to school to get education degrees. Despite the growingF    number of desperate unemployed high-tech workers states like NevadaF    still claim there is a shortage of these types of teachers. This isE    just another cruel insult to the growing number of highly educated 2    professionals that can't find meaningful work."  I    And when Sanchez says that recruitment of foreign teachers is going on      nationwide, he isn't kidding.  E      o  In 2003, Arizona educators traveled to New Delhi for teachers I         even though the local Scottsdale Unified School District cut 175  I         jobs during the same period. [Teachers Recruited from India, Pat  1         Kossan, Arizona Republic, March 22, 2003]   B      o  In June 2004, the New York Department of Education, cryingL         "shortage," added 200 additional teachers from Jamaica to its staff.K         The state offered two additional bonuses: free legal advice so that J         they could convert their visas into permanent residency status and         free temporary housing.   >      o  In September 2001, Cleveland hired 50 math and specialN         education teachers from India. This year 500 pink slips are being sent;         out in what the Cleveland Plain-Dealer describes as   B                "The first wave in what will be deep staff cuts in %                 the school district."   G         [Nearly 500 Teachers Will Be Cut, Janet Okoben and Ebony Reed,            April 23, 2005]  G    At the beginning of my column I warned that teachers should be leery     of the trend to hire H-1Bs.  G    Conservative estimates put the number of teachers with non-immigrant '    visas at about 15,000...and growing.   H    If you wonder why the attraction to H-1Bs is so strong, read the 2004B    National Education Association report Trends in Foreign Teacher    Recruitment.       From the NEA report:     H     "...Some foreign teachers receive lower pay than comparable teachers      in their schools."       And:   F      "...Some school districts pay their nonimmigrant employees as newC       teachers, regardless of their experience and qualifications."   C Offshoring and non-immigrant work visas are being used to decimate   the U.S. middle class.     --Jerry Leslie9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Sep 2005 23:59:54 EDT) From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :! Message-ID: <JU1Nask7rDTg@wvnvms>   e In article <dWi%e.2858$l03.599842@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: 9 > "George Cook" <cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> wrote in message   > news:H+PTrphgCWeF@wvnvms...  >> > [...snip...] >>M >> This is simply not true at least in the US (I wouldn't be at all surprised H >> if Canada was that screwed up).  Unless I missed a major change sinceI >> getting my Economics degree, the "unemployment rate" is defined as the J >> percentage of the "labor force" which is unemployed.  The "labor force"L >> consists of those who are employed or actively seeking employment.  It isF >> true that those collecting unemployment insurance are automaticallyB >> included in the percentage, but it also includes those with no  >> unemployment K >> insurance (either ran out or not eligible) who continue to register with  >> the unemployment agencies.  >> > / > This is true and an adavnced google search of  > Unemployment  and "fall off"@ > will provide 115,000 page hits of mostly relavent information.  @ It is true that the unemployment rate does not include those whoA drop out ("fall off") of the labor force, but as Jerry Leslie has D so ably documented in another post, it is not simply those currently@ receiving unemployment insurance.  One, 100 or 115,000 web pages' saying otherwise does not make it true.   C Statistics are very often bogus or incorrectly interpreted.  My own A take on the US unemployment statistics are that they are bogus in D that they are too high.  I live in an area with a rate a little overC 5%, but I see help wanted signs in almost every store including for ( unskilled union positions with good pay.     George Cook  WVNET    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:11:10 GMT  From: ST <tringali@yahoo.com>   Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?( Message-ID: <i5g%e.983$kl3.527@trnddc08>   FredK wrote:  M > But it doesn't help him.  He wants to not have the interactive issues of an M > active X11 application (be it the debugger, or VNC) on the same X11 server. D > This can be an issue, because simply changing focus can change the* > state of the application being debugged.  H That is why you run the debug *target* inside the VNC - it has it's own , virtualized X server unaffected by anything.  C If there's no VNC server for VMS, simply run the server on another  / (Linux) box and remote display to it.  Example:   1    vmsbox: run your reals X server and VNC client      linuxbox: runs the VNC server  @ On vmsbox, start your debugger.  Tell it to run "myapp -display . linuxbox:1" where "linuxbox:1" is a VNC server  B If there is no VNC client for VMS, simply run the *client* on the H another box and remote display back to your VMS box (vncviewer -display F vmsbox:0 linuxbox:1".  I doubt this since the VNC client is so simple ! that it can run in a web browser.   H Trust me, I do this ALL the time for weird UNIX boxes, and I never need & to compile any VNC servers or clients.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 02:08:13 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>  Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?3 Message-ID: <hcm%e.13622$Rh3.2683@news.cpqcorp.net>   * "ST" <tringali@yahoo.com> wrote in message" news:i5g%e.983$kl3.527@trnddc08... > FredK wrote: > L > > But it doesn't help him.  He wants to not have the interactive issues of anG > > active X11 application (be it the debugger, or VNC) on the same X11  server. F > > This can be an issue, because simply changing focus can change the, > > state of the application being debugged. > I > That is why you run the debug *target* inside the VNC - it has it's own . > virtualized X server unaffected by anything. > D > If there's no VNC server for VMS, simply run the server on another1 > (Linux) box and remote display to it.  Example:  > 3 >    vmsbox: run your reals X server and VNC client " >    linuxbox: runs the VNC server > A > On vmsbox, start your debugger.  Tell it to run "myapp -display 0 > linuxbox:1" where "linuxbox:1" is a VNC server > C > If there is no VNC client for VMS, simply run the *client* on the I > another box and remote display back to your VMS box (vncviewer -display G > vmsbox:0 linuxbox:1".  I doubt this since the VNC client is so simple # > that it can run in a web browser.  > I > Trust me, I do this ALL the time for weird UNIX boxes, and I never need ( > to compile any VNC servers or clients.  I Interesting, if perverse, hack.  There are some downsides to it, since it F will not model the actual run time environment exactly, but for simple3 application debug - sounds like a interesting idea.   E Unfortunately, in Joe's case (since I know where he works) - they are D running a complex 2D and 3D environment - that I doubt they would be0 able to bounce sucessfully through a VNC client.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:23:41 GMT # From: "GM" <logquality@hotmail.com> ' Subject: Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius , Message-ID: <1hg%e.196529$wr.99684@clgrps12>   I went back to Gentoo Live CD   8 Trying to find how to install to HD and install packages  > The good news is.... I can get both Gentoo and Debian to Load.   It's a start     GM5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message % news:3q4jogFd3bn9U1@individual.net... - > In article <433CA2D5.E7123A88@comcast.net>, 6 > David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:
 > > GM wrote:  > >> > >> I did it......  > >> > >> It work.....  > >> > >> Holy Shite......  > >> > >> Got Debian netinst CD > >>B > >> Used my Gentoo milo floppy....did a quick draw cd change when/ > >> rebooting.......and it installed debian...  > >> > >> wow > >> > >> now I'm back to this  > >> > >> # > >> > >> well......actually this > >> debian:~# > >># > >> but hey.......better than BSOD  > >>3 > >> Now I gotta figure out how to install a GUI...  > > , > > Are you sure it isn't already installed? > > & > > Does it respond to a command like: > > 	 > > # dwm  > >  > > ...or... > >  > > # xstart > G > Actually, that would be "startx".  And if he didn't configure it yet, 8 > although it is very likely on the disk, it won't work. >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:57:33 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>' Subject: Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius + Message-ID: <433DED0D.2080DC26@comcast.net>   	 GM wrote:  >  > I went back to Gentoo Live CD  > : > Trying to find how to install to HD and install packages > @ > The good news is.... I can get both Gentoo and Debian to Load. >  > It's a start   Sounds like a good start.   E There is a comp.os.linux.alpha newsgroup. I took the liberty of cross ) posting this reply to that group as well.   < Perhaps some of those nice folks will correspond with you...   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:55:21 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>' Subject: Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius + Message-ID: <433DEC89.1D0C640C@comcast.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <433CA2D5.E7123A88@comcast.net>, > >         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:
 > > GM wrote:  > >> > >> I did it......  > >> > >> It work.....  > >> > >> Holy Shite......  > >> > >> Got Debian netinst CD > >>B > >> Used my Gentoo milo floppy....did a quick draw cd change when/ > >> rebooting.......and it installed debian...  > >> > >> wow > >> > >> now I'm back to this  > >> > >> # > >> > >> well......actually this > >> debian:~# > >># > >> but hey.......better than BSOD  > >>3 > >> Now I gotta figure out how to install a GUI...  > > , > > Are you sure it isn't already installed? > > & > > Does it respond to a command like: > > 	 > > # dwm  > >  > > ...or... > >  > > # xstart > $ > Actually, that would be "startx".   $ Been a while since I played with it.  $ > And if he didn't configure it yet,8 > although it is very likely on the disk, it won't work.  F Depends. The install may have run the config; but if he didn't set theB right run level, it'll come up to a shell prompt or a login prompt  instead of the GUI login screen.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:10:33 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam>  Subject: Re: Quotation marks+ Message-ID: <HBj%e.19378$wg7.1505@fe06.lga>   # nathanbloomfield@hotmail.com wrote:  > I > I'm a very novice VMS (DCL) user trying to get my head around something & > that's probably staring right at me. > = > I'm tring to include quotation marks in the RFILTER string.   ( This is one of DCL's biggest weaknesses.  G Be warned, there are also issues processing input data read from files  + when double quotes are present in the data.    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 17:12:54 -0700" From: nathanbloomfield@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Quotation marksC Message-ID: <1128125574.617176.283250@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   A Thankyou all for your replies, I will be testing these approaches 	 tomorrow.   B >What's the particular goal here -- getting quotes into the string; >translation of the logical name itself, or something else?   C Yes, I need to include the quotes in the translation of the logical G name.  The logical is being used in a Xentis report.  If the variable I A am passing is numerical then I do not need to include the quotes, C however if the variable is a string I need to include the quotation  marks in the logical.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:01:04 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Quotation marks+ Message-ID: <433DEDDF.A6D55A7A@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  > % > nathanbloomfield@hotmail.com wrote:  > > 
 > > Hi there,  > > K > > I'm a very novice VMS (DCL) user trying to get my head around something ( > > that's probably staring right at me. > > ? > > I'm tring to include quotation marks in the RFILTER string.  > >  > > $ RFILTER = "23-002-1"2 > > $ DEFINE/TABLE=XEN$SYMBOLS TESTFILTER 'RFILTER$ > > $ SHOW LOGICAL/TABLE=XEN$SYMBOLS >  > One way to do it:  >  > $RFILTER = "23""""002""""1" / > $define/table=mytable testfilter "''rfilter'"    Another way to do it: 2 $ define/table=mytable testfilter """''rfilter'"""   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 21:42:49 -0700" From: nathanbloomfield@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Quotation marksB Message-ID: <1128141769.592819.70700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  C I've got it working using Albrecht's suggestion below.  Thankyou to D everyone for your assistance, I know I would have never figured thisF one out on my own.  I'm sure theres going to be situations where I can@ utilise each of the various approaches suggested in this thread.   Regards, Nathan  D >use one (") to delimit the string and two ("") to represent one (")A >within the string (and ''RFILTER' instead of 'RFILTER within the 	 >string):  >  >$ RFILTER = "23-002-1" ) >$ DEFINE/JOB TESTFILTER """''RFILTER'"""  >$ SHOW LOGICAL TESTFILTER2 >   "TESTFILTER" = ""23-002-1"" (LNM$JOB_8176F2C0)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:07:33 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> 1 Subject: Re: Thought you would enjoy this posting , Message-ID: <Tyj%e.19377$wg7.18019@fe06.lga>   William Hymen wrote:. > I found this posting on a Windoze newsgroup.1 > (should I have just told him to switch to VMS?)   2 No; he'll be screwed as soon as he gets to ;32767.  G Most 3rd party apps for Unix/Windows system don't have that limitation.    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 17:57:55 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>1 Subject: Re: Thought you would enjoy this posting C Message-ID: <1128128275.967436.141300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Z wrote: > William Hymen wrote:0 > > I found this posting on a Windoze newsgroup.3 > > (should I have just told him to switch to VMS?)  > 4 > No; he'll be screwed as soon as he gets to ;32767. > I > Most 3rd party apps for Unix/Windows system don't have that limitation.     A Well, Windows would probably blue screen long before reaching the  32767th version!  ; Having multiple versions of files is a mixed blessing, IMO.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:14:36 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> 1 Subject: Re: Thought you would enjoy this posting , Message-ID: <uan%e.19977$wg7.12140@fe06.lga>  
 AEF wrote:/ >>>I found this posting on a Windoze newsgroup. 2 >>>(should I have just told him to switch to VMS?)  4 >>No; he'll be screwed as soon as he gets to ;32767.I >>Most 3rd party apps for Unix/Windows system don't have that limitation.   C > Well, Windows would probably blue screen long before reaching the  > 32767th version!= > Having multiple versions of files is a mixed blessing, IMO.   B Ok, now THAT I agree with! Too many people think the VMS way with H multiple versions is always the best. "Mixed blessing" is closer to the  truth, IMO.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:09:38 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net># Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! * Message-ID: <433DE1D2.76FDF0D@comcast.net>  , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > ^ > In article <433C98A5.5F9A29F5@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > [snip] > > I > >It doesn't matter that VMS would be just a small blip. It matters that I > >VMS on the 8086 would have far greater potential for sales/growth than L > >on a sinking IA64 brick with no market momentum and terrible media image. > G > I'm not arguing with _you_.  I'm arguing with Bob's insane claim that I > Oracle and Microsoft pay off Digital/Compaq/HP execs not to port VMS to  > x86.  F Perhaps "pay off" is the wrong term. To extend a metaphor from anotherG thread, it may be more accurate to say that they decline to intimidate, C impede or hinder those who staunchly refuse to port VMS to the most # ubiquitous processor on the planet.   4 There's certainly no logical business reason for it.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 01:12:06 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)# Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! 6 Message-ID: <00A4A972.EDC3105E@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  _ In article <433DE1D2.76FDF0D@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: - >Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:  >>  _ >> In article <433C98A5.5F9A29F5@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: 	 >> [snip]  >> >J >> >It doesn't matter that VMS would be just a small blip. It matters thatJ >> >VMS on the 8086 would have far greater potential for sales/growth thanM >> >on a sinking IA64 brick with no market momentum and terrible media image.  >>  H >> I'm not arguing with _you_.  I'm arguing with Bob's insane claim thatJ >> Oracle and Microsoft pay off Digital/Compaq/HP execs not to port VMS to >> x86.  > G >Perhaps "pay off" is the wrong term. To extend a metaphor from another H >thread, it may be more accurate to say that they decline to intimidate,D >impede or hinder those who staunchly refuse to port VMS to the most$ >ubiquitous processor on the planet.  K I think it's irrelevant to Bill and Larry.  Oracle gets its license fees on L whatever platform it runs on, and active-active VMS clustering may result inJ fewer licenses than having to have fully-licensed multiple backup systems.  O MS has little reason to care whether VMS runs on x86?  Their cash cow is in the ? desktop space, which gets their foot in the door for servers.     5 >There's certainly no logical business reason for it.   N On Digital/Compaq/HPs part, yeah.  But we shouldn't blame Oracle and Microsoft; for it.  (There's plenty of other stuff to blame them for.)    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:51:23 -0400 ' From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: Vamp Hacked! H Message-ID: <7dd80f60509301051h4f6eac38t8dc500142039c5e4@mail.gmail.com>  , On 30 Sep 2005 13:43:47 -0400, Rich Alderson& <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:  L > PHP may have only BASIC's control structures, but I doubt it--it was crea= ted  > post-DDH.   A No, PHP is much like C or C++, not a goto in sight. You can write > Object Oriented code in PHP. The documentation can be found at <http://www.php.net/>    Ken    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:47:18 -0500 ( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com> Subject: Re: Vamp Hacked! 0 Message-ID: <00A4A990.FE1AA8E6.11@tachysoft.com>  3 >NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:39:26 -0500 , >Message-ID: <433CA591.64CC91EB@comcast.net>& >Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:40:17 -05003 >From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> & >Reply-To: djesysno@spam.earthlink.net >Organization: DJE Systems0 >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >Subject: Re: Vamp Hacked!   >Larry Kilgallen wrote:  >>  c >> In article <433C99E8.DE91FB83@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >>  H >> > I guess the lesson here is that even the most unhackable o.s. can't4 >> > prevent applications from having weak security. >>  D >> Whereas I would say the lesson is to avoid importing applications6 >> that are "good enough" for other operating systems. >   >...and the alternative is ... ? >     M Yes, good question.  I am not aware of any native-vms bulletin board, picture J gallery, chat, or bugtracking systems, which are the PHP applications I amK using.  Sure, the applications can get trashed, but the hackers can't break K through to the containing OS.  With regular backups, I am not worried about   these non-critical applications.O =============================================================================== N Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html    O =============================================================================== P Jake Blues:"You traded the Caddy for a microphone? ...... Okay, I can buy that."   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:08:00 -0700 , From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com>  Subject: Re: VMS on the |nquirer+ Message-ID: <dhjuu1$nqn$1@news01.intel.com>    Alan Greig wrote: I > Worth a look at www.theinquirer.net right now. Note the Intel VMS story C > and the clickable "If VMS is your god" pic(top left) from Digital  > India.  ; I don't tend to comment on such postings, but I did look at : the Intel VMS (on Alpha) story.  It's major two points are: flat wrong.  I know, since I support these systems in both8 D1C and D1D, the development fabs noted.  More than this I should not say...        -Ken --  6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:25:52 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>  Subject: Re: VMS on the |nquirer= Message-ID: <Qqf%e.21294$VI6.19978@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    Ken Fairfield wrote:   > Alan Greig wrote:  > J >> Worth a look at www.theinquirer.net right now. Note the Intel VMS storyD >> and the clickable "If VMS is your god" pic(top left) from Digital	 >> India.  >  > = > I don't tend to comment on such postings, but I did look at < > the Intel VMS (on Alpha) story.  It's major two points are< > flat wrong.  I know, since I support these systems in both: > D1C and D1D, the development fabs noted.  More than this > I should not say...   H Oh go on you can tell us that the top secret VMS on Opteron really runs ' all the fabs. That's a joke by the way.   	 >    -Ken    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 11:52:41 -0700  From: mike.magee@theinquirer.net  Subject: Re: VMS on the |nquirerC Message-ID: <1128106361.414656.123310@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    Ken Fairfield wrote: > Alan Greig wrote: K > > Worth a look at www.theinquirer.net right now. Note the Intel VMS story E > > and the clickable "If VMS is your god" pic(top left) from Digital 
 > > India. > = > I don't tend to comment on such postings, but I did look at < > the Intel VMS (on Alpha) story.  It's major two points are< > flat wrong.  I know, since I support these systems in both: > D1C and D1D, the development fabs noted.  More than this > I should not say...  > 
 >     -Ken > --8 > I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... >  > Ken Fairfield # > D1C Automation VMS System Support $ > who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield > where: intel dot com    G Sometimes I wish Intel would just say what it means. It doesn't hurt to 	 do so....   E Still, the fact you're in D1C Automation VMS System Support speaks, I  suppose, volumes...    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 11:59:08 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com   Subject: Re: VMS on the |nquirerC Message-ID: <1128106748.823234.157460@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   F can you throw some code into the itanium fab routines to make cheap 1P itaniums like HP promised us? :)    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 12:05:02 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com   Subject: Re: VMS on the |nquirerC Message-ID: <1128107102.624232.300340@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   G I got levitte.org and it says itanium is still in announcement mode ...  :(   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:01:22 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? = Message-ID: <DJOdnSl1CrXo4KDeRVn-qg@metrocastcablevision.com>   
 AEF wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >  >>Main, Kerry wrote: >> >>>>-----Original Message-----8 >>>>From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]$ >>>>Sent: September 29, 2005 3:03 PM >>>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com C >>>>Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  >>>> >>>>"Main, Kerry" wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>1. Although it would be nice, Itanium does not need to be >>>> >>>>the leader in  >>>> >>>>> >>>>>latest speeds-n-feeds in order to be successful.  It just >>>> >>>>needs to be  >>>> >>>>I >>>>>competitive. Heck, Sun has proven that over the years and as slow as  >>>>>SPARC was,  >>>> >>>>H >>>>There is a big difference here. SPARC was succesfull, considered the= >>>>"industry standard" for Unix and was widely regarded as a  >>>>safe platform. >>>>J >>>>IA64 has none of those attributes. It doesn't have an established userH >>>>base, it is new and already talk of killing it because it just isn'tI >>>>what it promised it would be. And more importantly, HP and Intel have E >>>>already started to cannabalise it by limiting its market niche to I >>>>supercomputers, and then there is the writing on the wall with the 64 < >>>>bit 8086 which Intel swore woudl never happen, coming to >>>>further reduce >>>>IA64's remaining niche.  >>>> >>>  >>> / >>>Wow, where have you been getting this stuff?  >>J >>I'll answer that question just to keep you honest, Kerry - though that's >>always a difficult task. >>H >>"There is a big difference here" indeed, and he goes on to explain it, >>point by point:  >>I >>"SPARC was successful" - very much so, to the point that it established C >>a loyal user base large enough to have weathered years of sub-par E >>performance and still remain the largest single Unix customer base.  >  > 0 > Uh, Kerry also said that SPARC was successful.  I Don't try so hard to be obtuse.  Kerry tried to claim that because SPARC  H was successful despite sub-par performance Itanic could be as well.  JF A observed that the situations were totally different:  being very  H successful (based in part on a history of very competitive performance) G is what *allows* a platform to ride through even an extended period of  C inferiority, and has nothing to do with whether an *unestablished*   platform can do the same.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:10:32 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? = Message-ID: <CMSdnY9bibsG4qDeRVn-qQ@metrocastcablevision.com>    Main, Kerry wrote:   ...   I > If any business system from 2-128cpu's is what JF and you refer to high I > end or supercomputers, then so be it. You are correct that that is what / > Intel and HP have decided to "limit" IA64 to.   G Wrong yet again, Kerry:  Intel's primary focus for business systems in  E the 1 - 4 (possibly even 1 - 8) processor range is clearly Xeon, not  I Itanic - in fact, that's where it sells virtually *all* its Xeons, sales  H which make Itanic sales look like absolute peanuts.  With the advent of F CSI that range will expand even higher (quite possibly all the way to ? the top of what Itanic can reach in terms of processor counts).   G It may not be good business for HP to be advising its Itanic customers  E to stick close to the lifeboats, of course.  And HP certainly hasn't  C been letting ethics get in the way of what it perceives as its own  H interests lately (nor have you ever demonstrated any tendencies in this  direction).   . So keep spinning away:  it's what you do best.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:38:43 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> ? Subject: RE: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB70BFEC@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----4 > From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]=20" > Sent: September 30, 2005 2:11 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com A > Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: >=20 > ...  >=20@ > > If any business system from 2-128cpu's is what JF and you=20 > refer to high A > > end or supercomputers, then so be it. You are correct that=20  > that is what1 > > Intel and HP have decided to "limit" IA64 to.  >=20@ > Wrong yet again, Kerry:  Intel's primary focus for business=20 > systems in=20 I > the 1 - 4 (possibly even 1 - 8) processor range is clearly Xeon, not=20 @ > Itanic - in fact, that's where it sells virtually *all* its=20 > Xeons, sales=20 B > which make Itanic sales look like absolute peanuts.  With the=20 > advent of=20J > CSI that range will expand even higher (quite possibly all the way to=20A > the top of what Itanic can reach in terms of processor counts).  >=20  D Bill, Bill .. I did not state that 2-128CPU business systems was the range of Itanium only. =20  B Of course there will be overlaps in different areas and Xeons with= Wintel/Linux/misc others will obviously have a place as well.   F I am simply pointing out that Intel and HP have not limited Itanium to* "supercomputers" alone as JF indicated.=20  F Will Itanium sales someday be as large as Xeons? Perhaps, perhaps not.D However, Itanium sales do not have to be any where near the level of  Xeons in order to be successful.    A > It may not be good business for HP to be advising its Itanic=20  > customers=20I > to stick close to the lifeboats, of course.  And HP certainly hasn't=20 G > been letting ethics get in the way of what it perceives as its own=20 9 > interests lately (nor have you ever demonstrated any=20  > tendencies in this=20 
 > direction).  >=200 > So keep spinning away:  it's what you do best. >=20 > - bill  C My apologies - I should know better than to offend the moderator of  comp.os.vms.=20   F In future, I will try to ensure all my posts related to HP and ItaniumH are depressing and full of doom-n-gloom as I know you would like them to be.    :-) :-)    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 11:52:07 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com ? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? C Message-ID: <1128106327.839827.227670@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   B and that is exactly why long time vms users like us may have to go: to sun or IBM because we have multiple 2-10 user workgroup> environments where 1P is needed at a cost that was promised usB when alpha was dropped!  And by limiting yourself to the high end,= how will you ever grow vms?  VMS flourished by selling to the = middle and low end also ... PDP11 minicomputers ran the first @ small accounting office I worked in along with many others along: with real time manufacturing and VAX/VMS extended that ...8 now you have renigged on your cheap 1P itanium boxes you9 promised as part of the reasoning alpha was being dumped!    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:53:59 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? = Message-ID: <4J-dndnAqu1KCqDeRVn-vg@metrocastcablevision.com>    Main, Kerry wrote: >>-----Original Message-----2 >>From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net] " >>Sent: September 30, 2005 2:11 PM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com A >>Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  >> >>Main, Kerry wrote: >> >>...  >> >>= >>>If any business system from 2-128cpu's is what JF and you   >> >>refer to high  >>> >>>end or supercomputers, then so be it. You are correct that  >> >>that is what >>0 >>>Intel and HP have decided to "limit" IA64 to. >>> >>Wrong yet again, Kerry:  Intel's primary focus for business 
 >>systems in  G >>the 1 - 4 (possibly even 1 - 8) processor range is clearly Xeon, not  > >>Itanic - in fact, that's where it sells virtually *all* its  >>Xeons, sales  @ >>which make Itanic sales look like absolute peanuts.  With the  >>advent of H >>CSI that range will expand even higher (quite possibly all the way to A >>the top of what Itanic can reach in terms of processor counts).  >> >  > F > Bill, Bill .. I did not state that 2-128CPU business systems was the > range of Itanium only.    G No:  what you tried to suggest was that the full range of server sizes  5 from 2 processors on up was what Itanic was aimed at.   I This is patently false.  While Intel and HP will sell you Itanic systems  F down to the 2-processor level (I mean, there has to be *some* kind of > development platform available, even though they're no longer I characterized as 'workstations'), their focus clearly is on that portion  E of the market *above* the area satisfied by their Xeon products - an  F upper range which truly *is* reasonably characterizable as 'high end'.  I Intel didn't even bother to upgrade its own aging (and already inferior)  I chipset that supports the lower end of the Itanic range - hardly the act  > of a vendor who considers that portion of the range important.  D Spin it though you may, Intel's message is clear:  now that AMD has H forced it to add 64-bit support to Xeon, Xeon is its entry of choice in I the fierce battle going on in the 2- to 8-core server range (a battle in  C which Itanic is almost invisible) - with Itanic available (via its  B partners) if you want something larger in an Intel-based platform.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:31:29 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> ? Subject: RE: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB70BFF8@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----; > From: bob@instantwhip.com [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com]=20 " > Sent: September 30, 2005 2:52 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com A > Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  >=20D > and that is exactly why long time vms users like us may have to go< > to sun or IBM because we have multiple 2-10 user workgroup@ > environments where 1P is needed at a cost that was promised usD > when alpha was dropped!  And by limiting yourself to the high end,? > how will you ever grow vms?  VMS flourished by selling to the ? > middle and low end also ... PDP11 minicomputers ran the first B > small accounting office I worked in along with many others along< > with real time manufacturing and VAX/VMS extended that ...: > now you have renigged on your cheap 1P itanium boxes you; > promised as part of the reasoning alpha was being dumped!  >=20 >=20   Bob -   H Again, "high end" is anything from 2-128 processors, so that is a pretty wide spectrum.  F The ever increasing single cpu MHZ race has peaked due to heat issues,G hence multi-core is seen as the way forward to resolve this. And due to G extreme competition, multi-core solutions are increasingly being priced 2 very close to what single cpu solutions were at ..  E With the exception of low end (e.g. PDA type devices), just about all D workstation and above platforms are moving to multi-core - including= those from AMD. Workstations are evolving in the same manner.   D While Itanium workstations are not a major focus right now, there isE nothing to say that this could not be re-visited in the future.  Will * it? I have no idea, but time will tell ...   :-)    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:49:32 -0600  From: Dan Notov <d9nn0@hp.com>? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? , Message-ID: <433da4dc$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   Keith Parris wrote:  > bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > D >> We all read about all these big vms users so excited that vms wasD >> moving to an "industry standard" platform ...  they all knew thatD >> itanium wasn't even close to alpha and never will be according toI >> DEC engineering reports, but they persisted in their idiocy regardless  >> ... why?  >  > I > VMS customers as a whole don't believe what the doom-and-gloomers here  G > say. (In fact, a lot of VMS customers don't even bother to read this  F > newsgroup anymore, because it's gotten so depressing. They hang out I > instead in places like the HP ITRC Forums on OpenVMS, asking technical  B > questions and getting good answers, without streams of vitriol. K > Sometimes I wonder why anyone from HP comes here anymore, given how much   > abuse is dished out.)  > D It's sorta like passing an accident on the road. You can't not look.   /danno   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 14:31:12 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? C Message-ID: <1128115872.940693.324660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    Bill Todd wrote: > AEF wrote: > > Bill Todd wrote: > >  > >>Main, Kerry wrote: > >>  > >>>>-----Original Message-----: > >>>>From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]& > >>>>Sent: September 29, 2005 3:03 PM > >>>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com E > >>>>Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  > >>>> > >>>>"Main, Kerry" wrote: > >>>> > >>>>@ > >>>>>1. Although it would be nice, Itanium does not need to be > >>>> > >>>>the leader in  > >>>> > >>>>@ > >>>>>latest speeds-n-feeds in order to be successful.  It just > >>>> > >>>>needs to be  > >>>> > >>>>K > >>>>>competitive. Heck, Sun has proven that over the years and as slow as  > >>>>>SPARC was,     = OK Bill. Here we have Kerry saying that SPARC was successful.    > >>>> > >>>>J > >>>>There is a big difference here. SPARC was succesfull, considered the    F Here we have JF saying that there is a big difference here, that SPARCB was successful. But that's exactly the same thing that Kerry said.  8 SO HOW CAN THE SAME THING BE DIFFERENT FROM ITSELF? A=A.    ? > >>>>"industry standard" for Unix and was widely regarded as a  > >>>>safe platform. > >>>>L > >>>>IA64 has none of those attributes. It doesn't have an established userJ > >>>>base, it is new and already talk of killing it because it just isn'tK > >>>>what it promised it would be. And more importantly, HP and Intel have G > >>>>already started to cannabalise it by limiting its market niche to K > >>>>supercomputers, and then there is the writing on the wall with the 64 > > >>>>bit 8086 which Intel swore woudl never happen, coming to > >>>>further reduce > >>>>IA64's remaining niche.  > >>>> > >>>  > >>> 1 > >>>Wow, where have you been getting this stuff?  > >>L > >>I'll answer that question just to keep you honest, Kerry - though that's > >>always a difficult task. > >>J > >>"There is a big difference here" indeed, and he goes on to explain it, > >>point by point:  > >>   *****   K > >>"SPARC was successful" - very much so, to the point that it established E > >>a loyal user base large enough to have weathered years of sub-par G > >>performance and still remain the largest single Unix customer base.    *****   C AHA! Here you are agreeing with Kerry. Kerry said it was successful G despite being slow. So how is that different when you are agreeing with  him?????   > >  > > 2 > > Uh, Kerry also said that SPARC was successful. > J > Don't try so hard to be obtuse.  Kerry tried to claim that because SPARCI > was successful despite sub-par performance Itanic could be as well.  JF   D Woah, skip the Itanic part. I just showed above that your own quote,G the one between the *****'s -- WHICH SAYS NOTHING ABOUT ITANIC -- is in B complete agreement with Kerry. Yet both you and JF say it is a bigC difference. Forget the rest. I'm not talking about the Itanic part. A Yes, that part is different. But: BOTH YOU AND JF CLAIM THAT YOUR G AGREEMENT WITH KERRY THAT SUN HAD A SUCCESSFUL PLATFORM, SPARC, DESPITE ? THE FACT THAT SPARC WAS NOT A GREAT PERFORMER, IS SOMEHOW A BIG  DIFFERENCE.   @ And even better, I pointed out in another post how JF's argument becomes anti-circular.    E IOW: Kerry says A, JF says there is a big difference including A. You F reinforce JF's statement that A is different. But A=A! I can't make it any plainer than that.  B I think it's ironic and funny. Maybe you should get IDG's new bookE "Humor for Dummies". You're so angry that you've completely lost your  sense of humor.   B > observed that the situations were totally different:  being veryI > successful (based in part on a history of very competitive performance)   < Ah, finally we see something useful about the SPARC success.  H > is what *allows* a platform to ride through even an extended period ofD > inferiority, and has nothing to do with whether an *unestablished* > platform can do the same.   F So Itanium can't be successful until it's successful. Got it! (Note to Bill: I'm kidding.) :-)   > The bottom line, of course, is: nothing succeeds like success.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:40:09 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? = Message-ID: <bvednf4ALOt-UaDeRVn-iw@metrocastcablevision.com>   
 AEF wrote:  G Nothing worth responding to:  I guess you really are a moron, not just  ( someone who occasionally looks like one.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Sep 2005 17:44:04 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? C Message-ID: <1128127444.751080.147180@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bill Todd wrote: > AEF wrote: > H > Nothing worth responding to:  I guess you really are a moron, not just* > someone who occasionally looks like one. >  > - bill    ) Guess what you like. No one really cares.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:30:43 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? , Message-ID: <433DE6C1.7CAE408C@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:H > I am simply pointing out that Intel and HP have not limited Itanium to) > "supercomputers" alone as JF indicated.   D Mr Main, do you at least acknowledge that Intel and HP have over theH last few years, especially in 2004, made a string of announcements whichH have reduced the target market for IA64 to what is now just the high end of enterprise ?   D It doesn't mean that they don't have smaller systems available. TheyH still have small servers that can be configured as a workstation (but no= sound support for VMS). But do you see them marketing them ?      D And for VMS, it is a real hindrance to be limited to a platform that3 gets targetted only at a small volume niche market.   H Were VMS available on both the 8086 and that IA64 thing, it could targetH a greater installed base and would benefit from all the 8086 advertising being done.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:43:25 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? , Message-ID: <433DE9BA.38E6D7F5@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:  F > While Itanium workstations are not a major focus right now, there isG > nothing to say that this could not be re-visited in the future.  Will , > it? I have no idea, but time will tell ...   "Not a major focus" ????  E Do you deny that in 2004, both HP and Intel admitted that IA64 wasn't H cut out for the workstation market and HP announced it would stop making IA64 based workstations ?   H (Yes, I know you can still get some servers configured as a workstation,A but the message last year was quite clear: No IA64 workstations.)   F Do you deny that Intel has repeatedly made statements to define IA64's$ target market as the very high end ?  G If you deny the above, then we live in different dimensions intersected  only by comp.os.vms.    @ Note that as an HP employee, it is permitted for you to not denyF something HP has said/done. If HP publically says they don't make IA640 workstations, you don't have to pretend they do.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 22:42:01 +0200 & From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch>= Subject: Re: [Q] DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? + Message-ID: <3q5m8qFdctdsU1@individual.net>   
 AEF wrote: > Hello, > ; > How can a node drop itself? See below. What does it mean?  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.76  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_X# > DECnet event 4.18, adjacency down 3 >>From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.72 I > Circuit SVA-0, Dropped by adjacent node, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.76  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_X! > DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 3 >>From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.73 / > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  >   D I've definitely seen these before, and they were down to either bad  cabling or network storms.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.547 ************************