1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 09 Oct 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 564       Contents:1 Do info-vax subscribers see the Newsgroups: line? # Re: Double-postings via home.ne.jp? & Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255* Re: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255/ Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today  Re: HP's strategy explained : P Re: Intel Itanium is for "Big Iron" (was: Re: Why did VMS users go along with th Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s!1 Re: VMS compatible terminal emulator for Mac OS X  VMS logo feedback needed Re: VMS logo feedback needed6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:07:11 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>: Subject: Do info-vax subscribers see the Newsgroups: line?< Message-ID: <PJ72f.96743$RW.15957@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>  = I notice the Nomen Nescio nonsense was duplicated across the  E cross-posted newsgroups. This can't happen if the messages are being  I re-inserted by an info-vax subscriber unless the Newsgroups: header line  < is intact. Can someone on info-vax say whether it is or not?   --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:18:34 +1300$ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>, Subject: Re: Double-postings via home.ne.jp?5 Message-ID: <Sl42f.16867$iM2.1382950@news.xtra.co.nz>   5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 6 news:A2d1f.813$R62.692@news-virt.s-kddi1.home.ne.jp...  ; > Between Google and the Japs we're up to six copies!!  :-)   / Hmm, how about hiring a hit-man to go knock-out  a server or two?   >  > bill >  > --  L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h> >    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 07:48:05 -0700 * From: "Mark  Round" <mark.round@gmail.com>/ Subject: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255 C Message-ID: <1128869285.831597.117390@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   F I have an AlphaStation 255 that I'd like to use with OpenVMS, although@ it is currently running the AlphaBIOS firmware. From reading theD various FAQs out there, I have discovered that I need to upgrade theF firmware and switch to SRM before I can continue. To do this, it would? appear that I need to create a floppy with the firmware on it - G however, this particular system does not have a floppy drive installed.   D Am I right in thinking that I can take any floppy drive from a PC orD similar box and connect it up and it will work ? Alternativley, someE documentation seems to indicate that I can place the firmware on a CD C and update from that. Is there any specific documentation on how to C acheive this? All I could find on the "Ask the wizard" site was the G phrase "It is also typically quite easy to acquire the firmware via the G CD-ROM distribution kit, and use the CD-ROM to switch firmware", but no  actual detail.   Thanks in advance,   -Mark    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 17:29:16 -0200 6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)3 Subject: Re: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255 * Message-ID: <4349536c@news.langstoeger.at>  p In article <1128869285.831597.117390@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Mark  Round" <mark.round@gmail.com> writes:G >I have an AlphaStation 255 that I'd like to use with OpenVMS, although A >it is currently running the AlphaBIOS firmware. From reading the E >various FAQs out there, I have discovered that I need to upgrade the G >firmware and switch to SRM before I can continue. To do this, it would @ >appear that I need to create a floppy with the firmware on it -H >however, this particular system does not have a floppy drive installed.  A You can also boot the firmware update via MOP from another system F like another VMS (or Tru64) system (where the .SYS firmware file comesI into the game) or from a locally attached (SCSI) (system( disk (where the F .EXE firmware files come into the game). I don't think a floppy is the4 only possible solution (though I never had a AS255).  E >Am I right in thinking that I can take any floppy drive from a PC or 1 >similar box and connect it up and it will work ?    Don't know but I think so.  F >                                                  Alternativley, someF >documentation seems to indicate that I can place the firmware on a CD >and update from that.  J Yes and no, the current Alpha firmware collection is available as a zippedG .ISO file which you can download, unzip and burn to a CD. But the AS255 8 firmware is IIRC not in the current firmware collection.  / 	http://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/   E >                       Is there any specific documentation on how to D >acheive this? All I could find on the "Ask the wizard" site was theH >phrase "It is also typically quite easy to acquire the firmware via theH >CD-ROM distribution kit, and use the CD-ROM to switch firmware", but no >actual detail.   I Follow the readme/instructions on the Alpha Systems Firmware homepage and  also check the VMS FAQ  " 	http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq/   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:13:47 +1300$ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today5 Message-ID: <3p32f.16855$iM2.1382528@news.xtra.co.nz>   ? "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message % news:4348279E.F50AC337@comcast.net...  > Lurker wrote:   C > > Don't you realise that fighting to keep jobs in UK means taking @ > > away jobs in "emerging European countries" as you call them. > C > You can't "lose" what you never had. Nothing is being taken away.   D You can. I've been in that situation before. Say you have a contract> lined up and ready to go when, out of the blue, some govermentE agency or a union steps in and scraps it. Yep, you do lose something.   J > Well, yes and no. No number of wrongs *EVER* makes a right, call it what > you will.   = Have you noticed that I said it's neither right nor *wrong* ?    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:17:24 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today= Message-ID: <4348d214$0$78285$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>   
 Lurker wrote: 6 > "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message4 > news:AH91f.3055$R4.475957@news20.bellglobal.com... >>2 >> "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com> wrote in message2 >> news:RoM0f.16157$iM2.1328350@news.xtra.co.nz...E >>> What about the customers? What about 3rd party people? What about  >>> the damage0 >>> the strikers are doing to their own economy? >>>  >>E >> It's funny that almost no one raises the same questions when upper C >> management decides to down size you and ship your job to a third  >> world country.  > G > Could it be because that decision doesn't affect (or, at least, isn't E > expected to affect) either the customers, 3rd party or the economy? = > Or it might even (horror!) actually affect them positively?  > F >> What happens to your economy when the only person making good money >> is in upper management? > A > What happens when unions run out of control? Remember Moulinex? B > The main reason cited in the press for it's demise was that it'sB > repeated attempts to restructure (euphemism, right?) were always? > blocked by the unions and state regulations. Where is it now?   H OK.  I give up.  I notice that I have several Moulinex appliances in my  kitchen though.   ! Just what has become of Moulinex?   # Dweeb (too tired to chase google).     ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 14:14:58 +0100 K From: pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.68.40) 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today! Message-ID: <O6w$Gwi3mqZ+@sinead>   \ In article <43481E84.5BA7116F@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: [...] G > If I were Dell right now, I would announce some new support centre in D > France and hire some workers. Even if it is a small centre, the PR/ > goodwill woudl sway many sales over to Dell.    L They listen to you :-) Dell has hired aboit 300 people since the begining ofK 2005. They have now 1000 empolees at Montpellier (in the south of France).  . I'm happy we buy more Dell than HP at CENA ...   Patrick  --O =============================================================================== N pmoreau@ath.cena.fr              ______      ___   _          (Patrick MOREAU)4 DSNA/DTI/SDER (ex CENA)         / /   /     / /|  /|J Athis-Mons France              / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/              http://membres.lycos.fr/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 06:52:08 -0700  From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1128865928.266623.188920@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   I > > Like it or else, your employees are your business partners as much as + > > your vendors, investors or anyone else.  > 7 > Employees - yes, they are. Unions - no, they are not.   1 Of course they are. Ask the germans for instance/    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 06:55:12 -0700  From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1128866112.494641.214570@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   J >It is interesting that it is the cuts in France that are making the >news >and not the ones on Germany  < It will come soon. there has been already a strike in Italy.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 06:58:30 -0700  From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1128866310.382680.306530@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   6 >Dell has hired aboit 300 people since the begining ofK >2005. They have now 1000 empolees at Montpellier (in the south of France). / >I'm happy we buy more Dell than HP at CENA ...   = Hum. Speak with Dell employees about their work conditions...   H And if you can tell me which unions are represented in Dell France :-) ?   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 15:04:50 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <3qspsiFghttbU2@individual.net>   < In article <BWV1f.999$R62.312@news-virt.s-kddi1.home.ne.jp>,5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >  > I > Well, let's see now: we have fewer workers, so we can only provid eless + > product or less service at the same cost.  >   
 Non-sequitor.   E I used to work in a papermill.  I made paper towels and toilet paper. D A team consisted of about 10 people.  It took 3-4 to run the machineB at any given point in time.  All the rest stuffed finished productC into cardboard boxes.  Today, stuffing the boxes is all done by yet A another machine.  Which, actually, can do the job faster than the D humans could.  Should the company continue to pay the 6-7 people who> used to stuff the boxes even though they are no longer needed?J Most unions would say yes, which is where we got the term feather-bedding.A It would not surprise me to find railroads still employ brakemen.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:23:58 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <4349441E.33EFA46E@comcast.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > > In article <BWV1f.999$R62.312@news-virt.s-kddi1.home.ne.jp>,> >         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > >  > > K > > Well, let's see now: we have fewer workers, so we can only provid eless - > > product or less service at the same cost.  > >  >  > Non-sequitor.  > G > I used to work in a papermill.  I made paper towels and toilet paper. F > A team consisted of about 10 people.  It took 3-4 to run the machineD > at any given point in time.  All the rest stuffed finished productE > into cardboard boxes.  Today, stuffing the boxes is all done by yet C > another machine.  Which, actually, can do the job faster than the F > humans could.  Should the company continue to pay the 6-7 people who@ > used to stuff the boxes even though they are no longer needed?L > Most unions would say yes, which is where we got the term feather-bedding.C > It would not surprise me to find railroads still employ brakemen.   2 ...as required by the FRA, not to mention firemen.  G The 6-7 box-stuffers can be put to work in some other capacity. Someone H has has to load packaging material into the boxing machines. Someone hasA to move the filled boxes to the shipping area. Someone has to ...   F There's always a way to keep automation from limiting your capacity to produce by reducing staff.  C At the factory I worked in 30 years ago, if we'd had people loading H coils of slit steel onto the spools while we were running the productionH line, our downtome to respool could have been cut more than in half, andF my spinal injury due to a winch malfunction could have been prevented. (No union = no protection.)   > Reducing staff *NEVER* increases productivity. It's a physical impossibility.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:17:16 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <4349428C.FDC0B542@comcast.net>   
 Lurker wrote:  > A > "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message ' > news:43482691.74A28823@comcast.net...  > I > > Like it or else, your employees are your business partners as much as + > > your vendors, investors or anyone else.  > 7 > Employees - yes, they are. Unions - no, they are not.   A The union is there to protect the employees and keep the employer  honest.    Are unions perfect? No   Are employers perfect? No.   Are employees perfect? NO.  # It's all about checks and balances.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:27:01 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <434944D4.A1897802@comcast.net>   
 Lurker wrote:  > A > "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message ' > news:4348279E.F50AC337@comcast.net...  > @ > > How can anyone "fight" for something that doesn't exist yet? > 1 > How about a "fight" for a really good contract?   C That's a "fight" to improve an existing contract. Even an unwritten D agreement to work is a "verbal" (or tacit) contract of sorts, so the? agreement already exists. The effort is to improve, not create.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:30:23 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <4349459F.1AC14F86@comcast.net>   
 Lurker wrote:  > A > "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message ' > news:4348279E.F50AC337@comcast.net...  > > Lurker wrote:  > E > > > Don't you realise that fighting to keep jobs in UK means taking B > > > away jobs in "emerging European countries" as you call them. > > E > > You can't "lose" what you never had. Nothing is being taken away.  > F > You can. I've been in that situation before. Say you have a contract@ > lined up and ready to go when, out of the blue, some govermentG > agency or a union steps in and scraps it. Yep, you do lose something.   E Well, no, not really. The only tangible loss is time, and potentially F some goodwill between between the parties negotiating. If the contract@ was not signed an in force, it only "existed" in concept, not in	 practice.   L > > Well, yes and no. No number of wrongs *EVER* makes a right, call it what
 > > you will.  > ? > Have you noticed that I said it's neither right nor *wrong* ?   9 Did you notice the disagreement expressed by the context?    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 19:33:52 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today= Message-ID: <43495480$0$78280$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>? >> In article <BWV1f.999$R62.312@news-virt.s-kddi1.home.ne.jp>, ? >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >>>  >>> E >>> Well, let's see now: we have fewer workers, so we can only provid 3 >>> eless product or less service at the same cost.  >>>  >> >> Non-sequitor. >>H >> I used to work in a papermill.  I made paper towels and toilet paper.G >> A team consisted of about 10 people.  It took 3-4 to run the machine E >> at any given point in time.  All the rest stuffed finished product F >> into cardboard boxes.  Today, stuffing the boxes is all done by yetD >> another machine.  Which, actually, can do the job faster than theG >> humans could.  Should the company continue to pay the 6-7 people who A >> used to stuff the boxes even though they are no longer needed? < >> Most unions would say yes, which is where we got the termD >> feather-bedding. It would not surprise me to find railroads still >> employ brakemen.  > 4 > ...as required by the FRA, not to mention firemen. > A > The 6-7 box-stuffers can be put to work in some other capacity. F > Someone has has to load packaging material into the boxing machines.D > Someone has to move the filled boxes to the shipping area. Someone > has to ... >   K Well, you should visit some totally automated warehousing and distribution   systems sometime. 5 They are a marvel for the lack of human intervention.   H > There's always a way to keep automation from limiting your capacity to > produce by reducing staff. > E > At the factory I worked in 30 years ago, if we'd had people loading ? > coils of slit steel onto the spools while we were running the C > production line, our downtome to respool could have been cut more E > than in half, and my spinal injury due to a winch malfunction could 2 > have been prevented. (No union = no protection.) >   D Most civilised countries have legislatively mandated work codes and  compensation systems. J I am truly sorry your injury predated this time, or if you live in a less  civilised land.   @ Upon the broken bones and toil of men are nations built - sadly.  @ > Reducing staff *NEVER* increases productivity. It's a physical > impossibility.  K That seems somewhat counterintuitive - if not in fact mathematically false.    Dweeb.     ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 07:01:39 -0700  From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :C Message-ID: <1128866499.304686.324290@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    http://www.globalisation.com/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:47:37 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> Y Subject: Re: Intel Itanium is for "Big Iron" (was: Re: Why did VMS users go along with th = Message-ID: <4348cb19$0$78288$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote:H > I put big iron in quotes because I read an article interviewing intels@ > new boss and he stated that word for word ... that itanium wasA > being made for big iron, no workstations, no 1P boxes, no sales > > to small and medium firms that don't need a superdome to runG > small 2-4 user offices ... that was on one of the major IT news sites ! > straight from the horses mouth!   = A link would be nice :-)  I'd like to read what the man said!    Dweeb    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 03:12:55 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> # Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! 0 Message-ID: <11khgbttcs64oa1@corp.supernews.com>   Doc. wrote: - > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in & > news:3qpvbgFg408nU1@individual.net:  >  > 2 >>In article <11ketalc66q7fd4@corp.supernews.com>,0 >>     Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  >  > <snip> > F >>>I bring up this customer at this point, since the person who pushedG >>>for windows is deceased, (some might say my timing was off), and the G >>>users are complaining about having to point and click.  They realize G >>>that for all day long work, the mouse just slows them down.  Now the H >>>requests are for modifications that minimize the need for the mouse. & >>>Hey, the money spends just as well. >>E >>A number of years ago when the PS2 was in vogue our local BlueCross D >>would not take any hardware that did not say IBM on it.  They evenB >>willingly paid a premium for memory because of demanding the IBM? >>name on the box, even though at that time IBM memory was just , >>re-badged (and re-priced) Kingston Memory. >>D >>"I don't care which one wins as long as it says VAX on the front." >>5 >>There was a time when DEC was riding that wave too.  >>  ; >>Style's don't change, only the brand in the king's favor.  >  > K > Actually, Dave is describing something slightly different.  The WinTendo  K > operating system is so widespread that this is where you are most likely   > to notice the problem. > K > I've been closely involved with data entry for at least 15 years now.  I  D > saw the tail end of "key-punch-girls" prepping data for mainframe K > processing right through to current systems.  I'd vote to confiscate the  A > mouse, and banish the browser interfaces that are springing up.   $ The browser interface is two things.   1) platform independant.   2) slow and inefficient.  
 > Someone L > who spends all day, every day, entering sales orders is getting less work 4 > done than their predecessor who had a VT terminal. > I > What is it about pretty graphics that makes people completely clueless  K > about the actual job that has to be done, and how to most efficiently do   > it?   ) There have been various factors involved.   D Managers (those who get to say what happens) don't like to get into G involved detail.  For someone who really isn't involved with the work,  F and has to do is periodically, might feel that the point and click is G easier to use.  For the infrequent user, it probably is.  They haven't  G developed the detail knowledge to use the terminal interface.  So they  2 dictate windows, and the data entry people suffer.  H When PCs first appeared in the office, everyone wanted one.  Data entry G people would suffer the less efficient interface in order to have a PC   on their desk.  H The GUI is a good user interface for some types of work.  But not for a G sales order entry person.  Unless the terminal interface for the sales  < order entry person doesn't offer all required functionality.  F >  I'm waiting for our Chinese customers to say the current system is K > too slow, but perhaps they've never had what I consider old computers to  $ > compare the data entry speed with. >  >  > Doc.     --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 03:40:24 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> # Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! , Message-ID: <4348C968.3E5FDB04@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:& > The browser interface is two things. >  > 1) platform independant. > 2) slow and inefficient.  B More importantly, the browser interface does not allow intelligent* navigation and automatic field completion.  G For instance in ALLIN1 forms, one can setup a field so that if there is C only one record whose key begins with CHO, typing CHO followed by a D <TAB> will automatically complete it to CHOCOLATE and go to the next; field. Can't have that level of interactivity in a browser.   H However, compared to a 3270 terminal, the browser is not at such a greatC disadvantage. You can use javascript intelligently to validate some & fields , which you can't do on a 3270.    I > The GUI is a good user interface for some types of work.  But not for a H > sales order entry person.  Unless the terminal interface for the sales> > order entry person doesn't offer all required functionality.  D You can have an intelligently designed GUI for data entry. One whichB does not require the mouse or menus for high throughput data entryC functions, but allows you to switch to mouse and menus when you are F stopping high throughut data entry to go to other applications such as
 email etc.      H Where the browser has made huge inroads is in customer support. ConsiderG a customer support organisation that has installed google-like software C on their server. CSR gets call from customer who has a certain type H handset with certain telephone problem. You key in the handset model andB description of problem and an intranet google-like serache pull up5 various pages documenting this problem and solutions.   G Those are ready-made solution that use raw horsepower to index searches 0 and give CSR very powerful searching capability.  F (And gives far more versatility compared to an application such as carG licence plate searching which is very specialised application with very G limited searching criteria (even if behind the scenes, the search would 9 be very sophisticated, progressively interrogating varous 2 state/provincial databases until a match is found)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 12:33:26 +0200 & From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch># Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! + Message-ID: <3qs9vmFgeu8nU1@individual.net>    Doc. wrote: - > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in & > news:3qpvbgFg408nU1@individual.net:  >  > 2 >>In article <11ketalc66q7fd4@corp.supernews.com>,0 >>     Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  >  > <snip> > F >>>I bring up this customer at this point, since the person who pushedG >>>for windows is deceased, (some might say my timing was off), and the G >>>users are complaining about having to point and click.  They realize G >>>that for all day long work, the mouse just slows them down.  Now the H >>>requests are for modifications that minimize the need for the mouse. & >>>Hey, the money spends just as well. >>E >>A number of years ago when the PS2 was in vogue our local BlueCross D >>would not take any hardware that did not say IBM on it.  They evenB >>willingly paid a premium for memory because of demanding the IBM? >>name on the box, even though at that time IBM memory was just , >>re-badged (and re-priced) Kingston Memory. >>D >>"I don't care which one wins as long as it says VAX on the front." >>5 >>There was a time when DEC was riding that wave too.  >>  ; >>Style's don't change, only the brand in the king's favor.  >  > K > Actually, Dave is describing something slightly different.  The WinTendo  K > operating system is so widespread that this is where you are most likely   > to notice the problem. > K > I've been closely involved with data entry for at least 15 years now.  I  D > saw the tail end of "key-punch-girls" prepping data for mainframe K > processing right through to current systems.  I'd vote to confiscate the  K > mouse, and banish the browser interfaces that are springing up.  Someone  L > who spends all day, every day, entering sales orders is getting less work 4 > done than their predecessor who had a VT terminal.  D Well said! Back in the late 1970s I we had a sales order system (forD vehicle parts) running on a PDP 11/34. Every month each of our 30-40D customers would submit a monthly stock order of up to thousand lines> apiece. The folks entering the orders were not the traditionalH "data-entry-girls", but skilled users who understood what each part did.  G Paperwork on the LHS of the keyboard, with left hand on a ruler to mark D the current line, right hand on the numeric keypad, using <ENTER> toD advance between fields, these folks could really motor through those
 large orders.   D And let's not forget the role of typeahead here. They didn't have toH wait for the part description to be displayed before continuing with theF rest of the line. Or for that matter starting to enter the next line -G the young girl in that department was so blindingly fast, and accurate, E that she'd happily be working a few lines ahead, letting the computer ) catch up when she had to turn a page. :-)   3 Now consider that this was 25 years, and more, ago.    > I > What is it about pretty graphics that makes people completely clueless  K > about the actual job that has to be done, and how to most efficiently do   > it?   E Beats me. But then again, when I was a kid we didn't need fancy Lycra G getup and crash helmets to ride a bike, we considred ourselves lucky to  have the bike!  F >  I'm waiting for our Chinese customers to say the current system is K > too slow, but perhaps they've never had what I consider old computers to  $ > compare the data entry speed with. >     E I'd be interested in feedback on that one. Given that they won't have D been subject to a lifetime of adverts and commercials, will they be + swayed by the graphics or see through them?    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 14:54:08 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)# Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! + Message-ID: <3qsp8gFghttbU1@individual.net>   0 In article <11khgbttcs64oa1@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
 > Doc. wrote: . >> bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in' >> news:3qpvbgFg408nU1@individual.net:   >>   >>  3 >>>In article <11ketalc66q7fd4@corp.supernews.com>, 1 >>>     Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>   >>  	 >> <snip>  >>  G >>>>I bring up this customer at this point, since the person who pushed H >>>>for windows is deceased, (some might say my timing was off), and theH >>>>users are complaining about having to point and click.  They realizeH >>>>that for all day long work, the mouse just slows them down.  Now theI >>>>requests are for modifications that minimize the need for the mouse.  ' >>>>Hey, the money spends just as well.  >>> F >>>A number of years ago when the PS2 was in vogue our local BlueCrossE >>>would not take any hardware that did not say IBM on it.  They even C >>>willingly paid a premium for memory because of demanding the IBM @ >>>name on the box, even though at that time IBM memory was just- >>>re-badged (and re-priced) Kingston Memory.  >>> E >>>"I don't care which one wins as long as it says VAX on the front."  >>> 6 >>>There was a time when DEC was riding that wave too. >>> < >>>Style's don't change, only the brand in the king's favor. >>   >>  L >> Actually, Dave is describing something slightly different.  The WinTendo L >> operating system is so widespread that this is where you are most likely  >> to notice the problem.  >>  L >> I've been closely involved with data entry for at least 15 years now.  I E >> saw the tail end of "key-punch-girls" prepping data for mainframe  L >> processing right through to current systems.  I'd vote to confiscate the B >> mouse, and banish the browser interfaces that are springing up. > & > The browser interface is two things. >  > 1) platform independant. >  > 2) slow and inefficient. >  >> Someone  M >> who spends all day, every day, entering sales orders is getting less work  5 >> done than their predecessor who had a VT terminal.  >>  J >> What is it about pretty graphics that makes people completely clueless L >> about the actual job that has to be done, and how to most efficiently do  >> it? > + > There have been various factors involved.  > F > Managers (those who get to say what happens) don't like to get into I > involved detail.  For someone who really isn't involved with the work,  H > and has to do is periodically, might feel that the point and click is I > easier to use.  For the infrequent user, it probably is.  They haven't  I > developed the detail knowledge to use the terminal interface.  So they  4 > dictate windows, and the data entry people suffer. > J > When PCs first appeared in the office, everyone wanted one.  Data entry I > people would suffer the less efficient interface in order to have a PC   > on their desk. > J > The GUI is a good user interface for some types of work.  But not for a I > sales order entry person.  Unless the terminal interface for the sales  > > order entry person doesn't offer all required functionality. >   E I still remember my first "PC" project as an applications programmer. A The "PC" was an LSI-11 based Terak MicroComputer.  The job was to C write a program to totally emulate thei locally written online data E entry system from CTS on a Univac 1100.  Data entry people would type E their data into the Terak with it being saved on 8" floppies.  At the C end of the day a supervisor would run another program (also written B by me) that would connect to the Univac through the Gandalf SwitchB just as the data entry people used to and emulate them typing veryB fast to upload all the data.  The savings were not having the dataF entry people tie up a scarce resource (the Gandalf Switch connections)H for the whole day as they slowly typed in data.  The biggest requirementE was that it look and function exactly like the Univac user interface. E Re-training the data entry people was seen as a non-starter.  I wrote H it in UCSD-Pascal after spending my free time during a two week vacationE learning Pascal.  I got the job because after looking at the Terak my G peers all said there was no way anything usable could be written to run B in only 28K words of memory.  How things have changed.  Instead ofC learning to program more efficiently we just threw more hardware at % the problem and let the bloat begin!!    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:16:08 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> # Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! = Message-ID: <43493438$0$78288$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:2 > In article <11khgbttcs64oa1@corp.supernews.com>,+ > Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >> Doc. wrote:/ >>> bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in ' >>> news:3qpvbgFg408nU1@individual.net:  >>>  >>> 5 >>>> In article <11ketalc66q7fd4@corp.supernews.com>, 2 >>>>     Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>>  >>> 
 >>> <snip> >>> B >>>>> I bring up this customer at this point, since the person whoC >>>>> pushed for windows is deceased, (some might say my timing was C >>>>> off), and the users are complaining about having to point and E >>>>> click.  They realize that for all day long work, the mouse just C >>>>> slows them down.  Now the requests are for modifications that D >>>>> minimize the need for the mouse. Hey, the money spends just as >>>>> well.  >>>>H >>>> A number of years ago when the PS2 was in vogue our local BlueCrossG >>>> would not take any hardware that did not say IBM on it.  They even E >>>> willingly paid a premium for memory because of demanding the IBM B >>>> name on the box, even though at that time IBM memory was just/ >>>> re-badged (and re-priced) Kingston Memory.  >>>>G >>>> "I don't care which one wins as long as it says VAX on the front."  >>>>8 >>>> There was a time when DEC was riding that wave too. >>>>> >>>> Style's don't change, only the brand in the king's favor. >>>  >>> C >>> Actually, Dave is describing something slightly different.  The E >>> WinTendo operating system is so widespread that this is where you * >>> are most likely to notice the problem. >>> D >>> I've been closely involved with data entry for at least 15 yearsC >>> now.  I saw the tail end of "key-punch-girls" prepping data for G >>> mainframe processing right through to current systems.  I'd vote to D >>> confiscate the mouse, and banish the browser interfaces that are >>> springing up.  >>' >> The browser interface is two things.  >> >> 1) platform independant.  >> >> 2) slow and inefficient.  >> >>> Someone C >>> who spends all day, every day, entering sales orders is getting @ >>> less work done than their predecessor who had a VT terminal. >>> A >>> What is it about pretty graphics that makes people completely F >>> clueless about the actual job that has to be done, and how to most >>> efficiently do it? >>, >> There have been various factors involved. >>F >> Managers (those who get to say what happens) don't like to get intoC >> involved detail.  For someone who really isn't involved with the E >> work, and has to do is periodically, might feel that the point and D >> click is easier to use.  For the infrequent user, it probably is.B >> They haven't developed the detail knowledge to use the terminalA >> interface.  So they dictate windows, and the data entry people 
 >> suffer. >>D >> When PCs first appeared in the office, everyone wanted one.  DataE >> entry people would suffer the less efficient interface in order to  >> have a PC on their desk.  >>D >> The GUI is a good user interface for some types of work.  But notE >> for a sales order entry person.  Unless the terminal interface for : >> the sales order entry person doesn't offer all required >> functionality.  >> > G > I still remember my first "PC" project as an applications programmer. C > The "PC" was an LSI-11 based Terak MicroComputer.  The job was to E > write a program to totally emulate thei locally written online data G > entry system from CTS on a Univac 1100.  Data entry people would type G > their data into the Terak with it being saved on 8" floppies.  At the E > end of the day a supervisor would run another program (also written D > by me) that would connect to the Univac through the Gandalf SwitchD > just as the data entry people used to and emulate them typing veryD > fast to upload all the data.  The savings were not having the dataH > entry people tie up a scarce resource (the Gandalf Switch connections)> > for the whole day as they slowly typed in data.  The biggestC > requirement was that it look and function exactly like the Univac A > user interface. Re-training the data entry people was seen as a E > non-starter.  I wrote it in UCSD-Pascal after spending my free time D > during a two week vacation learning Pascal.  I got the job because? > after looking at the Terak my peers all said there was no way F > anything usable could be written to run in only 28K words of memory.? > How things have changed.  Instead of learning to program more , > efficiently we just threw more hardware at' > the problem and let the bloat begin!!  >  > bill  L And hands up for those who have have dealt with WSU data entry applications  in RPG-II for the S/34 - :-)' A thought almost to painfull to recall.   
 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 04:33:58 -0700 # From: "Galen" <gltackett@gmail.com> : Subject: Re: VMS compatible terminal emulator for Mac OS XC Message-ID: <1128857638.585742.198120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   J > > There's also aterm, which I've built and tried with limited success onH > > OS X V10.3.9: http://www.afterstep.org/aterm.php will get you there., > > You have to have X11 installed, however. > C > > You can use aterm's resource file to remap the keyboard, if you  > K > hmm - reading its source to refresh my memory just now, I don't see that. M > It has a handful of pertinent resources such as backspace/delete selection, E > but nothing that could be regarded as able to "remap" the keyboard.  >   A Thomas, could you be looking at an older version of aterm? I have G V1.0.0, which has some code in source file xresources.c that appeart it F might do this. The man page for V1.0.0 also documents how to use theseG resources, though older versions don't. I haven't checked to see if the ( code actually does what I think, though.  2 I downloaded V1.0.0 from SourceForge at this link:9 http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=888    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 04:03:43 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ! Subject: VMS logo feedback needed , Message-ID: <4348CEDD.C8CE594C@teksavvy.com>  C With the inclement weather upon the northern hemisphere, cycling is ? slowly winding down, giving some time to play with other stuff.   G I've begun to play with a new VMS logo image to replace the traditional = 2d square with circle in middle and shark, and openvms on it.    the traditional one can be seen A at:http://wiz.openvms.org/images/vms_shark_hp.png  for instance.    H This logo is very early-1990s in terms of technology with pretend-3d for the square.   B I have a begun to build a new one. It is very preliminary. Haven'tG finished working wioth the materials (except for the shark which is now ? its own light source, so it is brighter), nor finished with the E lighting, and am not yet satisfied with the 3d look of the background , plaque. Below is a low resolution rendering:  / http://www.vaxination.ca/vms/shark/pastille.jpg   
 Questions:  2 -Should the HP logo be put on it ?  If so, where ?  3 -Should the OpenVMS be on top or below the shark ?    G Any suggestions  for colour of the "OpenVMS" text/object ? Would a gold   metallic material be desirable ?  G My goal is to make the background plaque metal/light blue, and probably F with sharper edges to accentuate the 3d look. (right now, the beveling is rounded).    C Any suggestions on what content should be included are appreciated.   F Also, once a final version is ready, how large an image should it be ?8 Would 512*512 be large enough ? Or should it be bigger ?        O (Yes, I have to rebuild the "OpenVMS" objects, the e wasn't extruded properly).    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:20:46 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> % Subject: Re: VMS logo feedback needed = Message-ID: <4349354d$0$78280$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    JF Mezei wrote: E > With the inclement weather upon the northern hemisphere, cycling is A > slowly winding down, giving some time to play with other stuff.  > = > I've begun to play with a new VMS logo image to replace the G > traditional 2d square with circle in middle and shark, and openvms on  > it.  > ! > the traditional one can be seen B > at:http://wiz.openvms.org/images/vms_shark_hp.png  for instance. > F > This logo is very early-1990s in terms of technology with pretend-3d > for 
 > the square.  > D > I have a begun to build a new one. It is very preliminary. Haven'tE > finished working wioth the materials (except for the shark which is  > now A > its own light source, so it is brighter), nor finished with the G > lighting, and am not yet satisfied with the 3d look of the background . > plaque. Below is a low resolution rendering: > 1 > http://www.vaxination.ca/vms/shark/pastille.jpg  >  > Questions: > 4 > -Should the HP logo be put on it ?  If so, where ? > 4 > -Should the OpenVMS be on top or below the shark ? > D > Any suggestions  for colour of the "OpenVMS" text/object ? Would a' > gold metallic material be desirable ?  > @ > My goal is to make the background plaque metal/light blue, and
 > probablyH > with sharper edges to accentuate the 3d look. (right now, the beveling > is rounded). >  > E > Any suggestions on what content should be included are appreciated.  > H > Also, once a final version is ready, how large an image should it be ?: > Would 512*512 be large enough ? Or should it be bigger ? >  >  >  > F > (Yes, I have to rebuild the "OpenVMS" objects, the e wasn't extruded > properly).  @ I like it - though the sea is a little "deep blue" for my taste.L It does have a cold hard feel to it though - so whatever rocks your boat :-)  
 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 15:15:27 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? + Message-ID: <3qsqgfFghttbU3@individual.net>   0 In article <11kfv4gpgk4vab5@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > K > Wonder how many people have a clue on how to begin to write such drivers?  >   F I couldn't even hazard a guess, but it seems there would be real valueG in some of them getting together and writting a detailed book on how to + do it.  I, for one,  would buy such a book.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 16:20:18 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? + Message-ID: <3qsua2Fg7pcmU1@individual.net>   + In article <434941F9.A771E582@comcast.net>, 5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >  > Back-end Tier:   > (GS-Class/Superdome)	 > OpenVMS  > DECwindows/MOTIF > SWB  > OpenOffice > Oracle, RdB or mySQL >  > Middle Tier:   > (ES-Class / Integrity)	 > OpenVMS  > Middleware Applications ! > database components (as needed)  > $ > Front-End (GUI application) Tier: 0 > (ES or GS-Class as needed to suport user load)	 > OpenVMS  > DECwindows/MOTIF >  > User-Interface Tier:" > Embedded Linux on IA32 or x86-64  > Why Linux rather than BSD?  What possible advantage does Linux offer?   > X  > D > The Front-end and Back-end tiers could conceiveably be combined toI > achieve better utilization of shared resources on the GS-Class machines , > (global sections, shareable images, etc.). > 8 > (Notice the total lack of Micro$lop in this scenario.)  / This is by far the best part of your proposal!!    bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:14:49 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? + Message-ID: <434941F9.A771E582@comcast.net>    "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----2 > > From: Dave Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com]! > > Sent: October 8, 2005 1:13 PM  > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com C > > Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  > >  > > Nigel Barker wrote: : > > > On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 20:57:45 -0500, David J Dachtera > > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>  > > > wrote: > > >  > > >  > > >>FredK wrote: > > >>
 > > >>>[snip] J > > >>>The voices in your head are suggesting that if VMS were to run on aJ > > >>>PC, that VMS would arbitrarily support any hardware...  and that is$ > > >>>beyond even wishful thinking. > > >>* > > >>Well, no - that seems a bit extreme. > > >>F > > >>The truth is, however, that with the major roadblock obliteratedF > > >>(getting VMS natively onto IA32 and/or x86-64), the "impossible"> > > >>suddenly becomes possible - and from there, anything can > > happen. It'sJ > > >>just a question of who is willing to do the work (write the drivers,G > > >>etc.). In the open source world, there seems little doubt that if  > > >>someone can, they will.  > > >>; > > >>We see that even in this group. Frequent posters here  > > certainly being = > > >>among the ones most likely to roll their own, necessity  > > being the mother > > >>of invention.  > > >  > > > ? > > > Where are the people currently writing device drivers for  > > sound cards, graphics @ > > > cards, wireless LAN cards etc? These are just a few of the > > unsupported orA > > > partially supported devices that have been discussed on the  > > newsgroup in theA > > > last few days. What makes you think that if VMS were on yet  > > another hardware@ > > > architecture that this would be any more likely to happen? > > >  > > > -- > > > Nigel Barker% > > > Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur  > > >  > > F > > Sounds like something that should come out of the hobbyist people.F > > There are already places that could make such available.  Or a newG > > distribution site could be set up for drivers written by hobbyists.  > > ? > > Wonder how many people have a clue on how to begin to write  > > such drivers?  > >  > > --8 > > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04508 > > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596B > > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com > > 170 Grimplin Road  > > Vanderbilt, PA  15486  > >  > J > Or perhaps there are some interested in assisting with the OpenOffice to > OpenVMS project? >  > Reference:  > http://www.oooovms.dyndns.org/  H In pondering this and considering all the past arguments quetsioning theB value of an office automation package on OpenVMS, I think I have a better picture in my head:   Back-end Tier:   (GS-Class/Superdome) OpenVMS  DECwindows/MOTIF SWB 
 OpenOffice Oracle, RdB or mySQL  
 Middle Tier:   (ES-Class / Integrity) OpenVMS  Middleware Applications  database components (as needed)   " Front-End (GUI application) Tier: . (ES or GS-Class as needed to suport user load) OpenVMS  DECwindows/MOTIF   User-Interface Tier:  Embedded Linux on IA32 or x86-64 X   B The Front-end and Back-end tiers could conceiveably be combined toG achieve better utilization of shared resources on the GS-Class machines * (global sections, shareable images, etc.).  6 (Notice the total lack of Micro$lop in this scenario.)   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.564 ************************