1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 10 Oct 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 565       Contents:F =?us-ascii?Q?Re:_Do_info-vax_subscribers_see_the_Newsgroups:_line=3F?=8 Re: ALL printers are electronic thieves (Was just Epson)5 Re: Do info-vax subscribers see the Newsgroups: line? # Re: Double-postings via home.ne.jp? # Re: Double-postings via home.ne.jp? * Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves* Re: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255* Re: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255* Re: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255* Re: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255/ Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today : Re: looking for VMS/Fortran/Rdb/OSU job in northern Europe) Re: TCPIP V5.4, SMTP & non-existant users ) Re: TCPIP V5.4, SMTP & non-existant users ) Re: TCPIP V5.4, SMTP & non-existant users ) Re: TCPIP V5.4, SMTP & non-existant users  Re: VMS logo feedback needed RE: VMS logo feedback needed Re: VMS logo feedback needed Re: VMS logo feedback needed Re: VMS logo feedback needed6 RE: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:10:57 -0500( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>O Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?Re:_Do_info-vax_subscribers_see_the_Newsgroups:_line=3F?= B Message-ID: <1128892258.115a83629c654800178f3dcb9ae3164b@teranews>  @ On 10/09/2005 07:07:11 Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> wrote:  K > I notice the Nomen Nescio nonsense was duplicated across the cross-posted L > newsgroups.  This can't happen if the messages are being re-inserted by anH > info-vax subscriber unless the Newsgroups: header line is intact.  Can/ > someone on info-vax say whether it is or not?   = If you look at the headers of the mail from info-vax you see:    X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms   E on all messages.  If the message was crossposted, you see those also.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:50:05 -0700 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>A Subject: Re: ALL printers are electronic thieves (Was just Epson) 0 Message-ID: <BF6F410D.155AA%roktsci@comcast.net>  K In a world where Gasoline prices are rising, but is still less than bottled 3 water, here are some comparative prices of liquids.   Items                   $/gallon! Gasoline                $    3.00 ! Milk                    $    2.99 ! Coca-Cola               $    2.84 ! Gatorade                $    5.20 ! Evian Water             $    5.60 ! Orange Juice            $    6.64 ! Crisco Oil              $    7.44 ! Perrier Water           $    8.16 ! Snapple                 $   10.32 ! Scope Mouthwash         $   27.20 ! Lemon Oil               $   27.22 ! Olive Oil               $   51.04 ! Shampoo                 $   40.44 ! Real Maple Syrup        $   57.08 ! Jack Daniel's Bourbon   $  101.12 ! Visine Eye Drops        $  995.84 ! Nasacort Nasal Spray    $2,615.28 ! Printer ink             $8,895.72   C Calculation based on HP Ink jet cartridge number 58, which contains 7 17 ml of black ink at the typical list price of $39.95.   : All prices are in US dollars, and are subject to change... Jeff Cameron  > Reference: http://www.vpcga.com/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=152     On 10/9/05 9:33 AM, in article< 43494643$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk, "Dr. Dweeb"( <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote:   > Gentlemen, > N > I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both incompetant> > and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses. > , > I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device. > J > Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5 > read between 23-28% H > I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink. > I > After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink.  > # > I decided to print the test page.  >  > Failure - and worse. > N > 1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message.  This6 > will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!!2 > 2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0%J > 3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not yet > having printed 1 character > N > Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot print andK > I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (even of alternative 4 > branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise. > M > The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me.  It is E > both amoral and illegal.  There is no technical reason for what has D > happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson9 > cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right.  > L > I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give up ?E > Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally apprpriate ?  > ! > Where do I get my money back ??  >  > Dr. Dweeb  >  >    >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:46:17 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>> Subject: Re: Do info-vax subscribers see the Newsgroups: line?= Message-ID: <Jcg2f.85653$iW5.57156@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    Wayne Sewell wrote:   ? > If you look at the headers of the mail from info-vax you see:  >  > X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms  > G > on all messages.  If the message was crossposted, you see those also.   I Thanks. I think that means it's unlikely that the postings are being fed  F back in via info-vax as no mail to nntp gateway is going to change an A X-newsgroups: header back to a Newsgroups: Well not without some   explicit programming anyway.  C I notice the echo seems to have gone quiet though. Maybe we've got  F through to someone. Or maybe it's just storing up a couple of hundred # postings to fire back in one go :-(    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:56:19 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> , Subject: Re: Double-postings via home.ne.jp?, Message-ID: <4349AE10.FDD9E695@teksavvy.com>  
 Good news:  . I have received an email from Mr Ito in Japan.  G He has indicated that he has shut down his NNTP posting system and will H investigate and fix the problem, and sends his apologies to participants in comp.os.vms.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:47:11 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>, Subject: Re: Double-postings via home.ne.jp?* Message-ID: <4349D62F.7FDBA1A@comcast.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Good news: > 0 > I have received an email from Mr Ito in Japan. > I > He has indicated that he has shut down his NNTP posting system and will J > investigate and fix the problem, and sends his apologies to participants > in comp.os.vms.   % I hope his first name is not Victor.     --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 17:53:39 GMT # From: Beach Runner <bob@nospam.com> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves = Message-ID: <DOc2f.181083$p_1.174566@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>    Dr. Dweeb wrote: > Gentlemen, > O > I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both incompetant  > > and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses. > , > I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device. > K > Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5   > read between 23-28% H > I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink. > I > After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink.  > # > I decided to print the test page.  >  > Failure - and worse. > O > 1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message.  This  6 > will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!!2 > 2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0%K > 3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not yet   > having printed 1 character > O > Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot print and  L > I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (even of alternative 4 > branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise. > N > The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me.  It is F > both amoral and illegal.  There is no technical reason for what has E > happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson  9 > cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right.  > L > I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give up ?E > Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally apprpriate ?  > ! > Where do I get my money back ??  >  > Dr. Dweeb  >  >    >  >   = Well consider HP is Digital/compaq, I'd go for an HP printer.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 20:15:32 -0200 6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves , Message-ID: <43497a64$1@news.langstoeger.at>  c In article <DOc2f.181083$p_1.174566@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>, Beach Runner <bob@nospam.com> writes: > >Well consider HP is Digital/compaq, I'd go for an HP printer.  C Nope. HP is not DEC and even worse than EPSON in inks. Try CANON...    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:12:15 GMT $ From: measekite <inkystinky@oem.com>3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves 7 Message-ID: <jYd2f.15$kQ5.7@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>    Dr. Dweeb wrote:   >Gentlemen,  > N >I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both incompetant = >and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses.  > + >I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device.  > J >Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5  >read between 23-28%G >I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink.  > H >After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink. > " >I decided to print the test page. >  >Failure - and worse.  >    > I THAT SOUNDS GREAT.  YOU SHOULD HAVE USED EPSON OEM INK AND YOU WOULD NOT   HAVE THE PROBLEM.   N >1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message.  This 5 >will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!! 1 >2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0% J >3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not yet  >having printed 1 character  > N >Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot print and  >I am REALLY pissed off.   > H IT IS BETTER TO BE PISSED OFF THEN PISSED ON.  YOU GOT PISSED ON BY THE ) AFTERMARKET WHORE YOU BOUGHT THE INK FROM   2 >Check how much 6 cartridges (even of alternative 3 >branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise.  >    > D BUY A NEW PRINTER ON SALE.  THEY USUALLY COST ABOUT THE SAME AS THE F INK.  NOW THAT IS TRUE FOR THE PRINTER ONLY.  IF YOU HAD NOT BOUGHT A 3 MFD THEN YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO REPLACE THE SCANNER.   M >The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me.  It is   >both amoral and illegal.    > H IF IT WAS ILLEGAL THEY WOULD NOT DO IT.  IMORAL, WELL SO ARE THE WHORES D THAT SELL AFTERMARKET INK AND WILL NOT TELL YOU WHAT YOU ARE BUYING.  + >There is no technical reason for what has  D >happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson 8 >cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right. > K >I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give up ? D >Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally apprpriate ? >   >Where do I get my money back ?? >    > ' FROM THE WHORE YOU BOUGHT THE INK FROM.   
 >Dr. Dweeb >  >  >  >  >    >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:10:57 +0200 & From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch>3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves + Message-ID: <3qt8a1Fg04q0U1@individual.net>     Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:e > In article <DOc2f.181083$p_1.174566@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>, Beach Runner <bob@nospam.com> writes:  > ? >>Well consider HP is Digital/compaq, I'd go for an HP printer.  >  > E > Nope. HP is not DEC and even worse than EPSON in inks. Try CANON...  > D I'll second Canon. Mine still worked for monochrome when the colour 8 cartridge ran out, and third party cartridges work fine.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:10:37 -0000 
 From: Tony <> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves - Message-ID: <part1of1.1.csE5a1FoM#r5FQ@ue.ph>   4 "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote: >Gentlemen,  > N >I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both incompetant = >and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses.  > + >I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device.  > J >Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5  >read between 23-28%G >I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink.  > H >After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink. > " >I decided to print the test page. >  >Failure - and worse.  > N >1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message.  This 5 >will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!! 1 >2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0% J >3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not yet  >having printed 1 character  > N >Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot print and K >I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (even of alternative  3 >branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise.  > M >The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me.  It is  E >both amoral and illegal.  There is no technical reason for what has  D >happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson 8 >cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right. > K >I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give up ? D >Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally apprpriate ? >   >Where do I get my money back ?? > 
 >Dr. Dweeb   Terrible practice I agree.P Have you tried using the driver software to change all the cartridges again but K using the *same* cartrdiges? I have seen this work. You need to change one  L cartridge at a time. It will not work from the printer so you have to do it N from the maintenance/service or whatever tab in the printer driver and choose  to replace the cartridge early.  Tony   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:16:44 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves , Message-ID: <43497AAA.B3F13988@teksavvy.com>   "Dr. Dweeb" wrote:N > Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot print andK > I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (even of alternative 4 > branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise.  > Go to a printer cartridge refill place and buy the gizmo which7 electronically resets the cartridges and some bulk ink.   E You can then inject ink into cartridges, apply the gizmo to the epson , cartridge and snap it back into the printer.  H Note that there was an article on CNET recently about how now about halfH the people prefer to just go to some photo shop to have pictures printedF versus fiddling with their own printer/paper and INK, especially sinceH photo shops now cost much less for each image than printing it yourself.    G > The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me.    D HP is the same. HP even prevents you from using cartridges that wereE sold on another continent. They are desperate for revenus and will do B anything to ensure thatthey have a monopoly on their ink business.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:34:49 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves , Message-ID: <43497EE5.425D1A68@teksavvy.com>   Tony wrote: Q > Have you tried using the driver software to change all the cartridges again but 5 > using the *same* cartrdiges? I have seen this work.     G EPSON cartridges can only be inserted into te printer once. If you take E a brand new cartridge, put it in printer, then take it out and put it ? back it, it will indicate 0 even though it is full. You need to E electronically reset the cartridge so it thinks it was never inserted  into a printer before.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:41:15 GMT - From: "Anna Daptor" <Anna@radio.active.co.uk> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves 6 Message-ID: <%7g2f.15063$4Q.7143@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:43497EE5.425D1A68@teksavvy.com...
 > Tony wrote: I >> Have you tried using the driver software to change all the cartridges   >> again but6 >> using the *same* cartrdiges? I have seen this work. >  > I > EPSON cartridges can only be inserted into te printer once. If you take G > a brand new cartridge, put it in printer, then take it out and put it 5 > back it, it will indicate 0 even though it is full.   I No it won't. Epson carts have a chip that remembers the ink level so you  I *can* take them out of the printer and it'll know how much ink is in the   cart when you replace it.   
 > You need to G > electronically reset the cartridge so it thinks it was never inserted  > into a printer before.  ) That's true if you've refilled the cart.     ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:41:15 GMT - From: "Anna Daptor" <Anna@radio.active.co.uk> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves 7 Message-ID: <%7g2f.15064$4Q.14222@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>   ? "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote in message  7 news:43494643$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...  > Gentlemen, > C > I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both  J > incompetant and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses. > , > I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device. > K > Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5   > read between 23-28% H > I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink. > I > After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink.  > # > I decided to print the test page.  >  > Failure - and worse. > I > 1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message.  ; > This will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!!   M So? That's no Epsons fault that the 3rd party inks you fitted don't identify   themselves correctly it is?   2 > 2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0%  H Again, not exactly Epsons fault that 3rd party inks screwed up your ink  level settings.    [snip]   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 22:00:26 +0000 (UTC)1 From: "Shooter" <photoman52003-shoot@yahoo.co.uk> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves ? Message-ID: <dic3tq$ag6$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>   I This discussion now brings up again that Epson will not honour a warranty F claim if third party ink is used or can be proved to be used. it is myH opinion that if they do not state plainly that other ink can not be usedL then in the UK there could be room for litigation for misrepresentation as aL buyer is buying only a printer and is not and should not be tied to OEM ink. Any views on this.  > "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote in message7 news:43494643$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...  > Gentlemen, > B > I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both incompetant > > and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses. > , > I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device. > J > Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5 > read between 23-28% H > I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink. > I > After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink.  > # > I decided to print the test page.  >  > Failure - and worse. > H > 1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message. This6 > will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!!2 > 2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0%J > 3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not yet > having printed 1 character > J > Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot print and K > I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (even of alternative 4 > branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise. > J > The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me.  It isE > both amoral and illegal.  There is no technical reason for what has D > happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson9 > cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right.  > L > I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give up ?E > Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally apprpriate ?  > ! > Where do I get my money back ??  >  > Dr. Dweeb  >  >  >  >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:58:29 +02003 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves = Message-ID: <43499285$0$78279$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Dr. Dweeb wrote: > Gentlemen, > B > I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is bothC > incompetant and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little  > asses., > I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device. > B > Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the > other 5 read between 23-28% H > I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink. > D > After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the > ink.# > I decided to print the test page.  >  > Failure - and worse. > ? > 1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" E > message.  This will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!! 2 > 2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0%F > 3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not  > yet having printed 1 character > D > Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannotF > print and I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (evenC > of alternative branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise.  > M > The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me. It is  A > both amoral and illegal.  There is no technical reason for what H > has happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson9 > cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right.  > G > I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give = > up ? Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally  > apprpriate ?! > Where do I get my money back ??  >  > Dr. Dweeb    Guys,   > The printer (an RX600 by the way, a typo before) is brand new.1 This is the first attempt to change a cartridge !   K Also, Epson sells different models in different markets and the ink is not  L interchangeable.  Generally speaking, for example, you cannot buy RX600 ink J in say, Thailand - since the model does not exist there.  A geek in a BKK J ink shop said he did not think a Thai resetter would work, since the Thai K cartridges were a different part number with a different chip.  I took his  H word, though in retrospect I should have paid the 10 bucks just in case.  J Also, AFAICS that % full idea is a piece of crap.  It is in no related to J the amount of ink in the cartridge, just on some arbitrary curve based on % the number of pages through the loop.   * All in all, a pretty depressing situation.  7 It sure printed and scanned nice for a while though :-(   	 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:03:11 +0200 3 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves = Message-ID: <4349939e$0$78284$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Anna Daptor wrote:< > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message( > news:43497EE5.425D1A68@teksavvy.com... >> Tony wrote:> >>> Have you tried using the driver software to change all the >>> cartridges again but7 >>> using the *same* cartrdiges? I have seen this work.  >> >>E >> EPSON cartridges can only be inserted into te printer once. If you F >> take a brand new cartridge, put it in printer, then take it out and= >> put it back it, it will indicate 0 even though it is full.  > F > No it won't. Epson carts have a chip that remembers the ink level soG > you *can* take them out of the printer and it'll know how much ink is " > in the cart when you replace it. >   H I am not certain who is correct here, though I have seen others than JF ! mention this somewhere else IIRC.   L The printer "decided" that the cartridge was empty rather arbitrarily - the I final page printed flawlessly.  The % full for the colours seems to dive  L pretty rapidly, even when the only colour printed was some trivial 10 pixel  logo.   J I think it is a giant scheme of deceit and lies and I am really mad about  it.   M Sadly, like almost everything else in the computer world, no one gives a FF.  J and there is no where to lodge a complaint.  Well maybe there is - I will L try during the week to harass support here and see what happens.  I predict  abject failure.   	 Dr. Dweeb    >> You need toH >> electronically reset the cartridge so it thinks it was never inserted >> into a printer before.  > + > That's true if you've refilled the cart.     ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:22:25 -0400+ From: "Marky" <Akwaaaaaarat8@symfartico.ca> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves 7 Message-ID: <Rdi2f.261$vD4.44201@news20.bellglobal.com>   > "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote in message7 news:4349939e$0$78284$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...  > Anna Daptor wrote:> > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message* > > news:43497EE5.425D1A68@teksavvy.com... > >> Tony wrote:@ > >>> Have you tried using the driver software to change all the > >>> cartridges again but9 > >>> using the *same* cartrdiges? I have seen this work.  > >> > >>G > >> EPSON cartridges can only be inserted into te printer once. If you H > >> take a brand new cartridge, put it in printer, then take it out and? > >> put it back it, it will indicate 0 even though it is full.  > > H > > No it won't. Epson carts have a chip that remembers the ink level soI > > you *can* take them out of the printer and it'll know how much ink is $ > > in the cart when you replace it. > >  > I > I am not certain who is correct here, though I have seen others than JF # > mention this somewhere else IIRC.  > I > The printer "decided" that the cartridge was empty rather arbitrarily -  the J > final page printed flawlessly.  The % full for the colours seems to diveG > pretty rapidly, even when the only colour printed was some trivial 10  pixel  > logo.   D If the ink cartridges that you are not changing have not updated theL information for the driver (unless you are using one of the standalones withH the LCD readout) it may be that the level was lower than was showing andG when you charged the black ink cartridge the other levels were reset...   L One thing about Epson printers and their 'Smart Cartridges' is they are onlyG as smart as the last update to the driver...and they do not have actual L sensors but the ink levels are calculated based on number of sheets printed,G cleaning cycles performed, on/off processing, and cartridge charging...   F This is not the best design but it works fairly accurately most of theL time...and I'd imagine that a better design would probably increase MSRP out' of the competitors leagues initially...    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:24:18 -0400+ From: "Marky" <Akwaaaaaarat8@symfartico.ca> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves 7 Message-ID: <Cfi2f.262$vD4.44850@news20.bellglobal.com>   > "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote in message7 news:43499285$0$78279$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...  > Dr. Dweeb wrote: > > Gentlemen, > > D > > I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is bothE > > incompetant and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little 
 > > asses.. > > I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device. > > D > > Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the > > other 5 read between 23-28% J > > I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink. > > F > > After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the > > ink.% > > I decided to print the test page.  > >  > > Failure - and worse. > > A > > 1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" G > > message.  This will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!! 4 > > 2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0%H > > 3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not" > > yet having printed 1 character > > F > > Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannotH > > print and I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (evenE > > of alternative branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise.  > > K > > The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me. It  isC > > both amoral and illegal.  There is no technical reason for what J > > has happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson; > > cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right.  > > I > > I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give ? > > up ? Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally  > > apprpriate ?# > > Where do I get my money back ??  > > 
 > > Dr. Dweeb  >  > Guys,  > @ > The printer (an RX600 by the way, a typo before) is brand new.3 > This is the first attempt to change a cartridge !  > L > Also, Epson sells different models in different markets and the ink is notI > interchangeable.  Generally speaking, for example, you cannot buy RX600  ink K > in say, Thailand - since the model does not exist there.  A geek in a BKK K > ink shop said he did not think a Thai resetter would work, since the Thai L > cartridges were a different part number with a different chip.  I took hisJ > word, though in retrospect I should have paid the 10 bucks just in case. > K > Also, AFAICS that % full idea is a piece of crap.  It is in no related to K > the amount of ink in the cartridge, just on some arbitrary curve based on ' > the number of pages through the loop.  > , > All in all, a pretty depressing situation. > 9 > It sure printed and scanned nice for a while though :-(   D Have you tried changing the other ink cartridges with Epson and thenK swapping the third party carts back in? Sometimes this works...sometimes it 
 doesn't...   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:04:37 GMT - From: "Anna Daptor" <Anna@radio.active.co.uk> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves 6 Message-ID: <pei2f.15605$4Q.4704@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>  = "Shooter" <photoman52003-shoot@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message  9 news:dic3tq$ag6$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... K > This discussion now brings up again that Epson will not honour a warranty ? > claim if third party ink is used or can be proved to be used.   M Since when? There's *nothing* stopping anybody using 3rd party inks in Epson  K or any other printer. Epson are just employing scare tactics in an attempt  F at ensuring their cash cow. Using 3rd party inks has no baring on any  warranty claims.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:11:12 +0200 3 From: "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves = Message-ID: <4349b1a0$0$78285$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Shooter wrote:B > This discussion now brings up again that Epson will not honour aB > warranty claim if third party ink is used or can be proved to beE > used. it is my opinion that if they do not state plainly that other G > ink can not be used then in the UK there could be room for litigation F > for misrepresentation as a buyer is buying only a printer and is not7 > and should not be tied to OEM ink. Any views on this.  >   H It is clearly a dubious practice - and likely illegal.  Was there not a M principle case on this matter in the US courts against HP on this very issue   ? (memory fuzzy on this)   Dweeb @ > "Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote in message9 > news:43494643$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk... 
 >> Gentlemen,  >>C >> I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both D >> incompetant and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little	 >> asses.  >>- >> I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device.  >>C >> Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the  >> other 5 read between 23-28%? >> I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from  >> Gold-Ink. >>E >> After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the  >> ink.  >>$ >> I decided to print the test page. >> >> Failure - and worse.  >>@ >> 1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah"E >> message. This will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!! 3 >> 2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0% G >> 3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not ! >> yet having printed 1 character  >>E >> Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot G >> print and I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (even D >> of alternative branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise. >>G >> The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me. C >> It is both amoral and illegal.  There is no technical reason for D >> what has happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing aD >> non-Epson cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right. >>C >> I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I C >> give up ? Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally  >> apprpriate ?  >>" >> Where do I get my money back ?? >>
 >> Dr. Dweeb     ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:33:13 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves / Message-ID: <11kjgr33cjv018@corp.supernews.com>    Dr. Dweeb wrote: > Gentlemen, > O > I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both incompetant  > > and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses. > , > I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device. > K > Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5   > read between 23-28% H > I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink. > I > After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink.  > # > I decided to print the test page.  >  > Failure - and worse. > O > 1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message.  This  6 > will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!!2 > 2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0%K > 3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not yet   > having printed 1 character > O > Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot print and  L > I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (even of alternative 4 > branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise. > N > The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me.  It is F > both amoral and illegal.  There is no technical reason for what has E > happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson  9 > cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right.  > L > I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give up ?E > Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally apprpriate ?  > ! > Where do I get my money back ??  >  > Dr. Dweeb   F Maybe your next printer should ba a laser printer, not an inkjet.  If C you need color, such exist.  Myself, I will never purchase another  + inkjet type printer.  (Or take a free one.)   G When selecting a printer, be sure to check out the cost of replacement  F parts, toner, drum, and such.  Also check out the tech support.  Stay E away from the companys where you have to pay to talk to tech support.   B The above suggestions were obtained through trial and much error. ; Printer companies are at the top of my permanant s**t list.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:03:52 GMT $ From: measekite <inkystinky@oem.com>3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves > Message-ID: <c_j2f.14154$6e1.12903@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>   Tony wrote:   5 >"Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote:  >    >  >>Gentlemen, >>O >>I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both incompetant  > >>and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses. >>, >>I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device. >>K >>Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5   >>read between 23-28% H >>I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink. >>I >>After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink.  >># >>I decided to print the test page.  >> >>Failure - and worse. >>O >>1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message.  This  6 >>will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!!2 >>2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0%K >>3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not yet   >>having printed 1 character >>O >>Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot print and  L >>I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (even of alternative 4 >>branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise. >>N >>The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me.  It is F >>both amoral and illegal.  There is no technical reason for what has E >>happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson  9 >>cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right.  >>L >>I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give up ?E >>Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally apprpriate ?  >>! >>Where do I get my money back ??  >> >>Dr. Dweeb  >>     >> >  >Terrible practice I agree. Q >Have you tried using the driver software to change all the cartridges again but  L >using the *same* cartrdiges? I have seen this work. You need to change one M >cartridge at a time. It will not work from the printer so you have to do it  O >from the maintenance/service or whatever tab in the printer driver and choose    >to replace the cartridge early. >Tony  >    > 0 TONY DA TIGER IS IN DA BUSINESS $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:11:43 GMT $ From: measekite <inkystinky@oem.com>3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves = Message-ID: <z5k2f.14160$6e1.5275@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>    Dr. Dweeb wrote:   >Anna Daptor wrote:  >    > < >>"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message( >>news:43497EE5.425D1A68@teksavvy.com... >>     >> >>>Tony wrote:	 >>>        >>> > >>>>Have you tried using the driver software to change all the >>>>cartridges again but7 >>>>using the *same* cartrdiges? I have seen this work.  >>>>         >>>>E >>>EPSON cartridges can only be inserted into te printer once. If you F >>>take a brand new cartridge, put it in printer, then take it out and= >>>put it back it, it will indicate 0 even though it is full. 	 >>>        >>> F >>No it won't. Epson carts have a chip that remembers the ink level soG >>you *can* take them out of the printer and it'll know how much ink is " >>in the cart when you replace it. >> >>     >> > I >I am not certain who is correct here, though I have seen others than JF  " >mention this somewhere else IIRC. > M >The printer "decided" that the cartridge was empty rather arbitrarily - the  J >final page printed flawlessly.  The % full for the colours seems to dive M >pretty rapidly, even when the only colour printed was some trivial 10 pixel   >logo. > K >I think it is a giant scheme of deceit and lies and I am really mad about   >it. > N >Sadly, like almost everything else in the computer world, no one gives a FF. K >and there is no where to lodge a complaint.  Well maybe there is - I will  M >try during the week to harass support here and see what happens.  I predict   >abject failure. > 
 >Dr. Dweeb >  >    >  >>>You need toH >>>electronically reset the cartridge so it thinks it was never inserted >>>into a printer before. 	 >>>        >>> + >>That's true if you've refilled the cart.   >>     >> >  >    >   # I AM ENJOYING THIS THREAD IMMENSELY    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:08:45 GMT $ From: measekite <inkystinky@oem.com>3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves & Message-ID: <4349CD2D.7030106@oem.com>   Anna Daptor wrote:  < >"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ' >news:43497EE5.425D1A68@teksavvy.com...  >    > 
 >>Tony wrote:  >>     >>I >>>Have you tried using the driver software to change all the cartridges   >>>again but6 >>>using the *same* cartrdiges? I have seen this work.	 >>>        >>> I >>EPSON cartridges can only be inserted into te printer once. If you take G >>a brand new cartridge, put it in printer, then take it out and put it 5 >>back it, it will indicate 0 even though it is full.  >>     >> > J >No it won't. Epson carts have a chip that remembers the ink level so you J >*can* take them out of the printer and it'll know how much ink is in the  >cart when you replace it. >  >    > 
 >>You need to G >>electronically reset the cartridge so it thinks it was never inserted  >>into a printer before. >>     >> > * >That's true if you've refilled the cart.  >    >  GREAT    >  >    >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:09:32 GMT $ From: measekite <inkystinky@oem.com>3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves = Message-ID: <w3k2f.14157$6e1.8253@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>    Anna Daptor wrote:  @ >"Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote in message 8 >news:43494643$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk... >    >  >>Gentlemen, >>C >>I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both  J >>incompetant and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses. >>, >>I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device. >>K >>Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5   >>read between 23-28% H >>I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink. >>I >>After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink.  >># >>I decided to print the test page.  >> >>Failure - and worse. >>I >>1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message.  ; >>This will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!!  >>     >> > N >So? That's no Epsons fault that the 3rd party inks you fitted don't identify  >themselves correctly it is? >  >    > 2 >>2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0% >>     >> > I >Again, not exactly Epsons fault that 3rd party inks screwed up your ink   >level settings. >  >[snip]  >    > 4 THATS RIGHT BUT IT IS GREAT.  A NICE LESSON LEARNED.   >  >    >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:10:27 GMT $ From: measekite <inkystinky@oem.com>3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves = Message-ID: <n4k2f.14158$6e1.2249@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>    Shooter wrote:  J >This discussion now brings up again that Epson will not honour a warranty? >claim if third party ink is used or can be proved to be used.   >   E WHY SHOULD THEY LOOSE MONEY BECAUSE SOME WHORE CLOGGED THE PRINTHEAD.   	 >it is my I >opinion that if they do not state plainly that other ink can not be used M >then in the UK there could be room for litigation for misrepresentation as a M >buyer is buying only a printer and is not and should not be tied to OEM ink.  >Any views on this.  > ? >"Dr. Dweeb" <NOSPAM_5msg0h202@sneakemail.com> wrote in message 8 >news:43494643$0$78282$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk... >    >  >>Gentlemen, >>B >>I have reached the conclusion that the Epson corporation is both >>     >> >incompetant >    > > >>and corrupt.  Someone should sue their scrawny little asses. >>, >>I have an RX500 - a high end combi-device. >>J >>Today, the reading on my black ink cartridge hit zero, while the other 5 >>read between 23-28% H >>I replaced the black cartridge with a 3rd party product from Gold-Ink. >>I >>After installation the printer informed me that it was loading the ink.  >># >>I decided to print the test page.  >> >>Failure - and worse. >>H >>1: "The ink cartridge is different from Epson blah blah blah" message. >>     >> >This  >    > 6 >>will now appear EVERY time I try to print !!!!!!!!!!2 >>2: The device reset all 5 other cartridges to 0%J >>3: The device has the black cartridge now pegged at 83%, despite not yet >>having printed 1 character >>J >>Because the other 5 cartridges now MUST be replaced I still cannot print >>     >> >and >    > K >>I am REALLY pissed off.  Check how much 6 cartridges (even of alternative 4 >>branbd) ink costs - this is an expensive exercise. >>J >>The audacity of these assholes to pull this sort of stunt amazes me.  It >>     >> >is  >    > E >>both amoral and illegal.  There is no technical reason for what has D >>happenned to me - it is just punishment for installing a non-Epson9 >>cartridge - something I believe is my commercial right.  >>L >>I mean, how much money do I have to spend on cartridges before I give up ?E >>Is an ERROR message at EVERY print job even marginally apprpriate ?  >>! >>Where do I get my money back ??  >> >>Dr. Dweeb  >> >> >> >> >>     >> >  >  >    >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:12:38 GMT $ From: measekite <inkystinky@oem.com>3 Subject: Re: Epson printers are electronic theieves = Message-ID: <q6k2f.14161$6e1.1029@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>    Anna Daptor wrote:  > >"Shooter" <photoman52003-shoot@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message : >news:dic3tq$ag6$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... >    > K >>This discussion now brings up again that Epson will not honour a warranty ? >>claim if third party ink is used or can be proved to be used.  >>     >> > N >Since when? There's *nothing* stopping anybody using 3rd party inks in Epson L >or any other printer. Epson are just employing scare tactics in an attempt G >at ensuring their cash cow. Using 3rd party inks has no baring on any   >warranty claims.  >    >   3 THERE IS NOTHING STOPPING ANYONE FROM BEING A FOOL.    >  >  >  >    >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:14:29 GMT  From: "Jim" <j.n@nospam.com>3 Subject: Re: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255 7 Message-ID: <p_d2f.47$Zv5.8@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>   5 "Mark Round" <mark.round@gmail.com> wrote in message  = news:1128869285.831597.117390@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... G >I have an AlphaStation 255 that I'd like to use with OpenVMS, although B > it is currently running the AlphaBIOS firmware. From reading theF > various FAQs out there, I have discovered that I need to upgrade theH > firmware and switch to SRM before I can continue. To do this, it wouldA > appear that I need to create a floppy with the firmware on it - I > however, this particular system does not have a floppy drive installed.  > F > Am I right in thinking that I can take any floppy drive from a PC orF > similar box and connect it up and it will work ? Alternativley, someG > documentation seems to indicate that I can place the firmware on a CD E > and update from that. Is there any specific documentation on how to E > acheive this? All I could find on the "Ask the wizard" site was the I > phrase "It is also typically quite easy to acquire the firmware via the I > CD-ROM distribution kit, and use the CD-ROM to switch firmware", but no  > actual detail. >  > Thanks in advance, >  > -Mark  > G It has been a long time since I had one of these things.  However, the  D firmware came on a CD.  I never looked into what format the CD had. / However, to use it, you shut down the computer. J Then you remove the jumper which prevents flashing the memory.  Next, you J put the CD into the drive, and boot the computer.  The computer sends you G some messages and quits.  So, you shutdown the computer, reinstall the  L jumper, remove the CD, and reboot..  Just be sure that the power is working 5 OK because an incorrect flash results in no computer. ; As for how to get the program(s) on the disk, I don't know.  Jim    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 12:38:45 -0700 * From: "Mark  Round" <mark.round@gmail.com>3 Subject: Re: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255 C Message-ID: <1128886725.642423.248550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Thanks.   D I should have mentioned that I don't have any other system I can useD for a network upgrade. Thanks for the link to the firmware site - itG would appear that the AS255 firmeare is not available on CD, so I'll be 3 stuck with trying to get a PC floppy working on it.   ? Unless there is anyone that would be prepared to lend/copy/etc. B (subject to licenses, of course) me the AS255 firmware CD or imageE thereof ? Unless of course, it's too old for VMS 7.3-1, which is what E I'll be installing on it. If that's the case, then, it looks like the + floppy is the only route available to me...   
 Thanks again,    -Mark    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:19:14 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>3 Subject: Re: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255 + Message-ID: <4349CFA2.E3434915@comcast.net>    Mark Round wrote:  > 	 > Thanks.  > F > I should have mentioned that I don't have any other system I can useF > for a network upgrade. Thanks for the link to the firmware site - itI > would appear that the AS255 firmeare is not available on CD, so I'll be 5 > stuck with trying to get a PC floppy working on it.  > A > Unless there is anyone that would be prepared to lend/copy/etc. D > (subject to licenses, of course) me the AS255 firmware CD or imageG > thereof ? Unless of course, it's too old for VMS 7.3-1, which is what G > I'll be installing on it. If that's the case, then, it looks like the - > floppy is the only route available to me...  >  > Thanks again,   " Do you have CD burning capability?  F If so, is there anyway I can send you a 388MB ZIPped .ISO image of the V5.1 firmware CD?    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:59:25 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>3 Subject: Re: Firmware update on an AlphaStation 255 + Message-ID: <4349D90C.FA5B39AF@comcast.net>    Mark Round wrote:  > 	 > Thanks.  > F > I should have mentioned that I don't have any other system I can useF > for a network upgrade. Thanks for the link to the firmware site - itI > would appear that the AS255 firmeare is not available on CD, so I'll be 5 > stuck with trying to get a PC floppy working on it.  > A > Unless there is anyone that would be prepared to lend/copy/etc. D > (subject to licenses, of course) me the AS255 firmware CD or imageG > thereof ? Unless of course, it's too old for VMS 7.3-1, which is what G > I'll be installing on it. If that's the case, then, it looks like the - > floppy is the only route available to me...  >  > Thanks again,   B E-mail me privately. How to demung the Reply-to should be obvious.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 18:27:42 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <3qt5ouFgmfokU1@individual.net>   + In article <4349441E.33EFA46E@comcast.net>, 5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>  ? >> In article <BWV1f.999$R62.312@news-virt.s-kddi1.home.ne.jp>, ? >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >> > >> >L >> > Well, let's see now: we have fewer workers, so we can only provid eless. >> > product or less service at the same cost. >> > >>   >> Non-sequitor. >>  H >> I used to work in a papermill.  I made paper towels and toilet paper.G >> A team consisted of about 10 people.  It took 3-4 to run the machine E >> at any given point in time.  All the rest stuffed finished product F >> into cardboard boxes.  Today, stuffing the boxes is all done by yetD >> another machine.  Which, actually, can do the job faster than theG >> humans could.  Should the company continue to pay the 6-7 people who A >> used to stuff the boxes even though they are no longer needed? M >> Most unions would say yes, which is where we got the term feather-bedding. D >> It would not surprise me to find railroads still employ brakemen. > 4 > ...as required by the FRA, not to mention firemen.   And that's a good thing?   > I > The 6-7 box-stuffers can be put to work in some other capacity. Someone J > has has to load packaging material into the boxing machines. Someone hasC > to move the filled boxes to the shipping area. Someone has to ...   D Those jobs already existed and were being done by other people.  TheF jobs done by those 6-7 people were eliminated by automation.  It makesG the product cheaper and requires less people to do the job.  welcome to  the industrial revolution.   > H > There's always a way to keep automation from limiting your capacity to > produce by reducing staff.  B Don't understand this.  Automation did limit anything.  Having the@ work done by people did. Since replacing those menial tasks with robots production has gone up.   > E > At the factory I worked in 30 years ago, if we'd had people loading J > coils of slit steel onto the spools while we were running the productionJ > line, our downtome to respool could have been cut more than in half, andH > my spinal injury due to a winch malfunction could have been prevented. > (No union = no protection.)  > @ > Reducing staff *NEVER* increases productivity. It's a physical > impossibility.  D That's absurd.  I can think of thousands of jobs that are being doneE more efficiently by machines that used to be done by hand in the past I and in all cases, replacing the humans with machines increased production F and in most cases eliminated a menial, physically damaging (RSI) humanG job.  Mechanical tasks can always be done faster and better by machines F than by humans.  (Human with screwdriver vs. robot with electric screwC -driver.)  John Henry is a cute story, but has no basis in reality.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:02:46 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today, Message-ID: <43497765.D1574A01@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: C > The union is there to protect the employees and keep the employer 	 > honest.   H And in a communist state, the people help each other and nobody needs toH own anything because all assets are communally owned. (Look at Kibitz in) Israel for an example of true communism).   E In the 1990s, when Canadian Airlines started to have big problems, it D was the union who stepped in and offered salary cuts in exchange forE equity in the company and a seat on the board. That brought in enough @ cash to save the airline this time, combined with a new investorD (american airlines). And it was the union who approached the airline3 with the offer, not the airline begging the union.    E On the other hand, the union for Eastern Airlines maintenance workers F did not want its members to agree to pay cuts because if they did, the? union would then see other airlines demand similar pay cuts for D mechanics who were part of same union.  So the union prefered to seeG Eartern go belly up rather than jeoperdize the salary of its members at  other airlines.   D The problem is that one hears most often the "bad" sides of unions.     E Large unions tend to have agendas which are far greater than just the E good of local employees at one employer. And that is when things turn G against employees. Yes, they have greater finanicla strength to provide G some salary to striking workers, something a small local union couldn't F do. But then again, a small local union would have far more motivation> to avoid a strike exactly because it knows it can't afford it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:11:34 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <43497974.E4C233E@teksavvy.com>    David J Dachtera wrote: @ > Reducing staff *NEVER* increases productivity. It's a physical > impossibility.    A Depends on your definition of productivity. At the higher levels, < (politicians, CEOs) which are totally detached from reality,G "productivity" is simply a macro measure of the value of goods produced # versus how many people are working.   F So, you jack up prices for your gizmos and keep staff levels the same,) and your productivity has just increased.     A At the micro level, plant managers and engineers look at the real F productivity issues. (eg: modify design of the gizmo so that it is farF easier to assemble, modify packaging so you can stick more gizmos into3 the same box, reducing handling costs etc etc etc).     H In an office, increasing productivity doesn't mean putting a windows boxG on a secretary's desk. It means having some application where you enter G the destination name/address, and it spits out the pre-printed envelope F and then puts you into the workd processor with the name/address, date? etc already added so the secretary can simply type in the text.   A Having WORD versus ALLIN1 on a VT220 in no way increases employee F productivity. In fact, the secretary might take longer in Word to playC with the menus, fonts etc than the employee using wpsplus. And with H ALLIN1, the filing system uyses long meaningful names, whereas WORD used 8.3 names for such a long time.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:31:53 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <43497E34.7BAFDED@teksavvy.com>    "Dr. Dweeb" wrote:L > Well, you should visit some totally automated warehousing and distribution > systems sometime. 7 > They are a marvel for the lack of human intervention.   G There are situations where humans just couldn't do the job.  Consider a B FedEx sorting plant, or large airport luggage sorting systems (forF instance Schiphol in Amsterdam). When you look at the volume they mustN handle in a short period of time, there is no way to make this "human tended".  C Schiphol has the equivalent of a huge roller coaster system to move H luggage from one area to another at high speeds, as well as an automatedE storage area to store luggage that is in transit for a flight that is F not yet loading. Once the flight is ready to be loaded at a gate, thatE stored luggage automatically comes out of its storage slot, re-enters G the roller coaster system to get to the area where the luggage is being @ put into the containers for that specific flight. BBC once put aG camera/suitcase items though its luggage systems to film it, and it was - pretty scary because of the speeds involved.    H This was done out of necessity due to the volumes and speeds required toE process luggage in the shortest possible amount of time.   But if you E have an operation that is working well with 50 staff, and the task is E not so much to increase production rates but rather cut the number of D staff, it becomes a very different issue. Do the low volumes justifyF spending megabucks for greatly automating the process ? Are staff custD being done just for the sake of management being able to claim staff cuts ?    D When offices went from electric typewriters to first generation wordC processors, that provided a HUGE increase in productivity. But when A Bosses realises how easy it was to make changes to a letter, they A started to constantly revise their letters, so that resulted in a C decrease in productivity :-)  Subsequent word processor generations D didn't really increase productivity, the made the output look nicer.      E > Most civilised countries have legislatively mandated work codes and  > compensation systems.   H Yep. And those government agencies make very sure that employers provideE a secure environment. Here, employers really dislike when an employee H makes a complaint to the CSST (worker health/safety board). So they haveG motivation to have a good working environment. (but that doesn't affect + pay and benefits, just working conditions).    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2005 23:32:54 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <3qtnl5Fgq8qoU1@individual.net>   + In article <4349A2DB.DCC5FE48@comcast.net>, 5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: >>   >> David J Dachtera wrote: >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >> >> B >> >> In article <BWV1f.999$R62.312@news-virt.s-kddi1.home.ne.jp>,B >> >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: >> >>> >> >>>H >> >>> Well, let's see now: we have fewer workers, so we can only provid6 >> >>> eless product or less service at the same cost. >> >>> >> >>  >> >> Non-sequitor.  >> >> K >> >> I used to work in a papermill.  I made paper towels and toilet paper. J >> >> A team consisted of about 10 people.  It took 3-4 to run the machineH >> >> at any given point in time.  All the rest stuffed finished productI >> >> into cardboard boxes.  Today, stuffing the boxes is all done by yet G >> >> another machine.  Which, actually, can do the job faster than the J >> >> humans could.  Should the company continue to pay the 6-7 people whoD >> >> used to stuff the boxes even though they are no longer needed?? >> >> Most unions would say yes, which is where we got the term G >> >> feather-bedding. It would not surprise me to find railroads still  >> >> employ brakemen. >> >7 >> > ...as required by the FRA, not to mention firemen.  >> >D >> > The 6-7 box-stuffers can be put to work in some other capacity.I >> > Someone has has to load packaging material into the boxing machines. G >> > Someone has to move the filled boxes to the shipping area. Someone  >> > has to ...  >> > >>  M >> Well, you should visit some totally automated warehousing and distribution  >> systems sometime.8 >> They are a marvel for the lack of human intervention. >>  K >> > There's always a way to keep automation from limiting your capacity to  >> > produce by reducing staff.  >> >H >> > At the factory I worked in 30 years ago, if we'd had people loadingB >> > coils of slit steel onto the spools while we were running theF >> > production line, our downtome to respool could have been cut moreH >> > than in half, and my spinal injury due to a winch malfunction could5 >> > have been prevented. (No union = no protection.)  >> > >>  F >> Most civilised countries have legislatively mandated work codes and >> compensation systems.L >> I am truly sorry your injury predated this time, or if you live in a less >> civilised land. >>  C >> Upon the broken bones and toil of men are nations built - sadly.  >>  C >> > Reducing staff *NEVER* increases productivity. It's a physical  >> > impossibility.  >>  N >> That seems somewhat counterintuitive - if not in fact mathematically false. > J > Please explain how lowering the ability to produce increases the output.  % Number of staff != ability to produce   G One old lady tating lace can not produce the same as a machine designed G for the same job.  The machine, which requires one operator can produce B as much lace as several old ladies in the same period of time.  AnG industrial robot installing carriage bolts, washers and nuts in the bed G of a pick-up truck can do as many in an hour as several (perhaps dozens  of) humans.     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 18:08:11 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <4349A2DB.DCC5FE48@comcast.net>    "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>A > >> In article <BWV1f.999$R62.312@news-virt.s-kddi1.home.ne.jp>, A > >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > >>>  > >>> G > >>> Well, let's see now: we have fewer workers, so we can only provid 5 > >>> eless product or less service at the same cost.  > >>>  > >> > >> Non-sequitor. > >>J > >> I used to work in a papermill.  I made paper towels and toilet paper.I > >> A team consisted of about 10 people.  It took 3-4 to run the machine G > >> at any given point in time.  All the rest stuffed finished product H > >> into cardboard boxes.  Today, stuffing the boxes is all done by yetF > >> another machine.  Which, actually, can do the job faster than theI > >> humans could.  Should the company continue to pay the 6-7 people who C > >> used to stuff the boxes even though they are no longer needed? > > >> Most unions would say yes, which is where we got the termF > >> feather-bedding. It would not surprise me to find railroads still > >> employ brakemen.  > > 6 > > ...as required by the FRA, not to mention firemen. > > C > > The 6-7 box-stuffers can be put to work in some other capacity. H > > Someone has has to load packaging material into the boxing machines.F > > Someone has to move the filled boxes to the shipping area. Someone > > has to ... > >  > L > Well, you should visit some totally automated warehousing and distribution > systems sometime. 7 > They are a marvel for the lack of human intervention.  > J > > There's always a way to keep automation from limiting your capacity to > > produce by reducing staff. > > G > > At the factory I worked in 30 years ago, if we'd had people loading A > > coils of slit steel onto the spools while we were running the E > > production line, our downtome to respool could have been cut more G > > than in half, and my spinal injury due to a winch malfunction could 4 > > have been prevented. (No union = no protection.) > >  > E > Most civilised countries have legislatively mandated work codes and  > compensation systems. K > I am truly sorry your injury predated this time, or if you live in a less  > civilised land.  > B > Upon the broken bones and toil of men are nations built - sadly. > B > > Reducing staff *NEVER* increases productivity. It's a physical > > impossibility. > M > That seems somewhat counterintuitive - if not in fact mathematically false.   H Please explain how lowering the ability to produce increases the output.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 18:24:49 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <4349A6C0.F569BDE1@comcast.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <4349441E.33EFA46E@comcast.net>, > >         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>A > >> In article <BWV1f.999$R62.312@news-virt.s-kddi1.home.ne.jp>, A > >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > >> > > >> >N > >> > Well, let's see now: we have fewer workers, so we can only provid eless0 > >> > product or less service at the same cost. > >> > > >> > >> Non-sequitor. > >>J > >> I used to work in a papermill.  I made paper towels and toilet paper.I > >> A team consisted of about 10 people.  It took 3-4 to run the machine G > >> at any given point in time.  All the rest stuffed finished product H > >> into cardboard boxes.  Today, stuffing the boxes is all done by yetF > >> another machine.  Which, actually, can do the job faster than theI > >> humans could.  Should the company continue to pay the 6-7 people who C > >> used to stuff the boxes even though they are no longer needed? O > >> Most unions would say yes, which is where we got the term feather-bedding. F > >> It would not surprise me to find railroads still employ brakemen. > > 6 > > ...as required by the FRA, not to mention firemen. >  > And that's a good thing?  E See the Chicago Tribune Archives Re: the recent Metra crash of a Rock H Island District train on a Saturday morning about two weeks ago. Had theG engineer been one of two people in the cab(car) and not alone up there, E this (Metra's first-ever fatal) crash would likely have been averted.    > > K > > The 6-7 box-stuffers can be put to work in some other capacity. Someone L > > has has to load packaging material into the boxing machines. Someone hasE > > to move the filled boxes to the shipping area. Someone has to ...  > B > Those jobs already existed and were being done by other people.    WHOA!!! Time out...   = 6-7 box stuffers were augmented by people handing them boxes?    > The H > jobs done by those 6-7 people were eliminated by automation.  It makes> > the product cheaper and requires less people to do the job.   A Well, not quite. The "product being cheaper" depends a lot on the D amortization (or lease) of the equipment, and the point at which theE equipment "pays for itself" as income from sales are applied to those C requirements. If leased, you never reach that point - leases are an E on-going expense. If capitalized, the equipment is amortized, and the : expense of that offset (at least in part) by depreciation.  H Yeah, you can juggle the numbers to produce any desired apparent effect,A but consider Sarb/Ox and the events leading to its genesis before C chalking up reduced production costs against the loss of production / capability inflicted by the reduction of staff.   ' > welcome to the industrial revolution.   ! Welcome (back) to the real world.    > > J > > There's always a way to keep automation from limiting your capacity to > > produce by reducing staff. > D > Don't understand this.  Automation did limit anything.  Having theB > work done by people did. Since replacing those menial tasks with  > robots production has gone up.  C ProducTION or statistical producTIVITY per employee? (*VERY* *VERY*  important distinction!!!).   > > G > > At the factory I worked in 30 years ago, if we'd had people loading L > > coils of slit steel onto the spools while we were running the productionL > > line, our downtome to respool could have been cut more than in half, andJ > > my spinal injury due to a winch malfunction could have been prevented. > > (No union = no protection.)  > > B > > Reducing staff *NEVER* increases productivity. It's a physical > > impossibility. > F > That's absurd.  I can think of thousands of jobs that are being doneG > more efficiently by machines that used to be done by hand in the past K > and in all cases, replacing the humans with machines increased production H > and in most cases eliminated a menial, physically damaging (RSI) human > job.    E Well, yes and no. Once the robotic lines are up and running, they can D crank out product tirelessly, if fed a constant source of materials.  F I suppose the trucks/trains/ships/etc. load/unload themselves as well?  C ...and when the robotic line breaks down, well, I'll leave room for > others to insert their own first-hand anecdotes at this point.  E Sorry, but its a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY to reduce staff (read: reduce H ability to produce) and increase productivity, no matter how you "juggle
 the numbers".   C > Mechanical tasks can always be done faster and better by machines H > than by humans.  (Human with screwdriver vs. robot with electric screwE > -driver.)  John Henry is a cute story, but has no basis in reality.   C Never worked in factory, have you? (You just said you did; so, that $ claim about "John Henry" is absurd.)   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Oct 2005 00:02:21 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <3qtpccFgniboU1@individual.net>   + In article <4349A6C0.F569BDE1@comcast.net>, 5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>  . >> In article <4349441E.33EFA46E@comcast.net>,? >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >> >> B >> >> In article <BWV1f.999$R62.312@news-virt.s-kddi1.home.ne.jp>,B >> >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: >> >> >  >> >> > O >> >> > Well, let's see now: we have fewer workers, so we can only provid eless 1 >> >> > product or less service at the same cost.  >> >> >  >> >>  >> >> Non-sequitor.  >> >> K >> >> I used to work in a papermill.  I made paper towels and toilet paper. J >> >> A team consisted of about 10 people.  It took 3-4 to run the machineH >> >> at any given point in time.  All the rest stuffed finished productI >> >> into cardboard boxes.  Today, stuffing the boxes is all done by yet G >> >> another machine.  Which, actually, can do the job faster than the J >> >> humans could.  Should the company continue to pay the 6-7 people whoD >> >> used to stuff the boxes even though they are no longer needed?P >> >> Most unions would say yes, which is where we got the term feather-bedding.G >> >> It would not surprise me to find railroads still employ brakemen.  >> >7 >> > ...as required by the FRA, not to mention firemen.  >>   >> And that's a good thing?  > G > See the Chicago Tribune Archives Re: the recent Metra crash of a Rock J > Island District train on a Saturday morning about two weeks ago. Had theI > engineer been one of two people in the cab(car) and not alone up there, G > this (Metra's first-ever fatal) crash would likely have been averted.   C And how would having a brakeman and a fireman riding in the caboose E (because they don't really have a job) have averted anything?  Add to F that the fact that there is no reason to believe a second person wouldE have helped the situation rather than provide yet another distraction # making the driver even more unsafe.    >  >> >L >> > The 6-7 box-stuffers can be put to work in some other capacity. SomeoneM >> > has has to load packaging material into the boxing machines. Someone has F >> > to move the filled boxes to the shipping area. Someone has to ... >>  C >> Those jobs already existed and were being done by other people.   >  > WHOA!!! Time out...  > ? > 6-7 box stuffers were augmented by people handing them boxes?   C Of course.  Boxes were delivered to the line by a Production Supply C Technician.  Finished product in cases was removed from the line by E another Production Supply Technician.  Line workers stuffed the right E combination of paper products into those cases.  Today, a robot train E delivers the raw cases.  One man removes them from the train and puts C them into the hopper of the packing machine.  Robot packers put the B finished product into the cases.  Conveyer system moves the packedD cases to the warehouse.  So, actually, not only have the 6-7 packersD been replaced by one worker and an industrial robot, but so too have  2 Production Supply Technicians.   >  >> TheI >> jobs done by those 6-7 people were eliminated by automation.  It makes ? >> the product cheaper and requires less people to do the job.   > C > Well, not quite. The "product being cheaper" depends a lot on the F > amortization (or lease) of the equipment, and the point at which theG > equipment "pays for itself" as income from sales are applied to those E > requirements. If leased, you never reach that point - leases are an G > on-going expense. If capitalized, the equipment is amortized, and the < > expense of that offset (at least in part) by depreciation.  H True, and all the equipment is purchaesed as capital investments and notH leased.  Plus, the cost of the equipment is, in many cases less than oneE years employee costs (remembering that there is much more to employee J costs than just salary.) and decreases through depreciation while employee costs constantly increase.   > J > Yeah, you can juggle the numbers to produce any desired apparent effect,C > but consider Sarb/Ox and the events leading to its genesis before E > chalking up reduced production costs against the loss of production 1 > capability inflicted by the reduction of staff.  > ( >> welcome to the industrial revolution. > # > Welcome (back) to the real world.   G Again, reduction of staff does not imply guaranteed loss of production.    >  >> >K >> > There's always a way to keep automation from limiting your capacity to  >> > produce by reducing staff.  >>  E >> Don't understand this.  Automation did limit anything.  Having the C >> work done by people did. Since replacing those menial tasks with ! >> robots production has gone up.  > E > ProducTION or statistical producTIVITY per employee? (*VERY* *VERY*  > important distinction!!!).  H Well, if production goes up and number of employees goes down, obviouslyM productivity per employee goes up.  But profits are not based on productivity I per employee.  They are based on costs coming in and quantity of products  going out.     >  >> >H >> > At the factory I worked in 30 years ago, if we'd had people loadingM >> > coils of slit steel onto the spools while we were running the production M >> > line, our downtome to respool could have been cut more than in half, and K >> > my spinal injury due to a winch malfunction could have been prevented.   >> > (No union = no protection.) >> >C >> > Reducing staff *NEVER* increases productivity. It's a physical  >> > impossibility.  >>  G >> That's absurd.  I can think of thousands of jobs that are being done H >> more efficiently by machines that used to be done by hand in the pastL >> and in all cases, replacing the humans with machines increased productionI >> and in most cases eliminated a menial, physically damaging (RSI) human  >> job.  > G > Well, yes and no. Once the robotic lines are up and running, they can F > crank out product tirelessly, if fed a constant source of materials. > H > I suppose the trucks/trains/ships/etc. load/unload themselves as well?  J No, but I didn't say that every job can be done by a machine.  But, in theH case of a truck, it would take several men hours to empty or load what aH single man with a fork truck can do in a fraction of the time.  Ever seeJ a modern harbor?  Used to be product was loaded case by case into the holdK of the ships by large numbers of stevedors.  Today robot cranes load truck- 3 loads at a time with only one person operating it..    > E > ...and when the robotic line breaks down, well, I'll leave room for @ > others to insert their own first-hand anecdotes at this point.  9 And when the human calls in sick?  (even when he isn't!!)    > G > Sorry, but its a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY to reduce staff (read: reduce J > ability to produce) and increase productivity, no matter how you "juggle > the numbers".    staff != ability to produce   3 And we won't even go into "The Mythical Man Month".    > D >> Mechanical tasks can always be done faster and better by machinesI >> than by humans.  (Human with screwdriver vs. robot with electric screw F >> -driver.)  John Henry is a cute story, but has no basis in reality. > E > Never worked in factory, have you? (You just said you did; so, that & > claim about "John Henry" is absurd.)  G Why John Henry beat the machine but it reulted in his death.  Kind of a  Pyhrric victory.   bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 20:09:03 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today, Message-ID: <4349B10B.FD63C43F@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: G > Sorry, but its a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY to reduce staff (read: reduce J > ability to produce) and increase productivity, no matter how you "juggle > the numbers".    That is wrong.  H Buy adding additional/new infrastructure, you can either decrease number( of people needed and/or increase output.  G In cases where the company is bloated due to a merger, you can cut much F staff without impacting productivity as long as the the saff being cut is truly redundant.   C But intelligent cutting is usually something which you can announce H after the cuts have been made: "following streamlining of department X Y9 and Z, we have been able to reduce payroll byu X people."    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 20:58:55 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today0 Message-ID: <11kjeqkqsre558e@corp.supernews.com>  6 Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.68.40 wrote:^ > In article <43481E84.5BA7116F@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > [...]  > G >>If I were Dell right now, I would announce some new support centre in D >>France and hire some workers. Even if it is a small centre, the PR/ >>goodwill woudl sway many sales over to Dell.   >  > N > They listen to you :-) Dell has hired aboit 300 people since the begining ofM > 2005. They have now 1000 empolees at Montpellier (in the south of France).  0 > I'm happy we buy more Dell than HP at CENA ...  C So, if you hire more people when your business grows, what are you   saying when you let people go?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:11:38 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today, Message-ID: <4349BFB2.2E2C06CF@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:D > So, if you hire more people when your business grows, what are you  > saying when you let people go?  6 You don't brag about it. You do it quietly and slowly.    F Corporations must not only listen to Wall Street Casino analysts. TheyL must be consious of their social ties in the countries in which the operate.  G HP announcing job cuts in Germany in the middle of an election was seen < as a very inept faux-pax or HP getting involved politically.  G Is HP jeoperdizing its growth potential outside the USA with such inept  news announcements ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:41:44 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <4349D4E8.E3590573@comcast.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <4349A6C0.F569BDE1@comcast.net>, > >         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>0 > >> In article <4349441E.33EFA46E@comcast.net>,A > >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:  > >> >> D > >> >> In article <BWV1f.999$R62.312@news-virt.s-kddi1.home.ne.jp>,D > >> >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:	 > >> >> > 	 > >> >> > Q > >> >> > Well, let's see now: we have fewer workers, so we can only provid eless 3 > >> >> > product or less service at the same cost. 	 > >> >> >  > >> >>  > >> >> Non-sequitor.  > >> >> M > >> >> I used to work in a papermill.  I made paper towels and toilet paper. L > >> >> A team consisted of about 10 people.  It took 3-4 to run the machineJ > >> >> at any given point in time.  All the rest stuffed finished productK > >> >> into cardboard boxes.  Today, stuffing the boxes is all done by yet I > >> >> another machine.  Which, actually, can do the job faster than the L > >> >> humans could.  Should the company continue to pay the 6-7 people whoF > >> >> used to stuff the boxes even though they are no longer needed?R > >> >> Most unions would say yes, which is where we got the term feather-bedding.I > >> >> It would not surprise me to find railroads still employ brakemen.  > >> >9 > >> > ...as required by the FRA, not to mention firemen.  > >> > >> And that's a good thing?  > > I > > See the Chicago Tribune Archives Re: the recent Metra crash of a Rock L > > Island District train on a Saturday morning about two weeks ago. Had theK > > engineer been one of two people in the cab(car) and not alone up there, I > > this (Metra's first-ever fatal) crash would likely have been averted.  > E > And how would having a brakeman and a fireman riding in the caboose @ > (because they don't really have a job) have averted anything?   F Commuter trains don't have cabooses. There's a "cab" at both ends: oneG in the loco, one in the "cab car" at the other end. Each seats two: the % engineer and a conductor or brakeman.   H Current speculation is that the engineer, being a last minute substituteE and being unfamiliar with the fact that train was slowed and switched F between tracks at no more than 10 m.p.h. at the crash point, proceededD past both amber and lunar signals at circa. 70 m.p.h. Had a brakemanG been present, he could have alerted the man to his error, and if he did H not desist, he could have either called the conductor up to either siezeH control or throw the train into emergency braking or open the engineer'sF compartment with his key and physically sieze control of the train, orD the brakeman could have climbed over and siezed control of the trainG himself after notifying the rail dispatcher of the impending emergency.   A Most freight trains today don't have cabooses, either. The little G flashing light at the tail end of the train also houses a remote camera E which the engineer can use (in daylight) to monitor the tracks behind B the train for tell-tale signs of deraileur, such as scored ties or flying debris.   > Add toH > that the fact that there is no reason to believe a second person wouldG > have helped the situation rather than provide yet another distraction % > making the driver even more unsafe.    See the above.   > >  > >> >N > >> > The 6-7 box-stuffers can be put to work in some other capacity. SomeoneO > >> > has has to load packaging material into the boxing machines. Someone has H > >> > to move the filled boxes to the shipping area. Someone has to ... > >>D > >> Those jobs already existed and were being done by other people. > >  > > WHOA!!! Time out...  > > A > > 6-7 box stuffers were augmented by people handing them boxes?  > E > Of course.  Boxes were delivered to the line by a Production Supply E > Technician.  Finished product in cases was removed from the line by G > another Production Supply Technician.  Line workers stuffed the right G > combination of paper products into those cases.  Today, a robot train G > delivers the raw cases.  One man removes them from the train and puts E > them into the hopper of the packing machine.  Robot packers put the D > finished product into the cases.  Conveyer system moves the packedF > cases to the warehouse.  So, actually, not only have the 6-7 packersF > been replaced by one worker and an industrial robot, but so too have" > 2 Production Supply Technicians.  5 ..and who provides materials to the supply train? ;-)    > >  > >> TheK > >> jobs done by those 6-7 people were eliminated by automation.  It makes @ > >> the product cheaper and requires less people to do the job. > > E > > Well, not quite. The "product being cheaper" depends a lot on the H > > amortization (or lease) of the equipment, and the point at which theI > > equipment "pays for itself" as income from sales are applied to those G > > requirements. If leased, you never reach that point - leases are an I > > on-going expense. If capitalized, the equipment is amortized, and the > > > expense of that offset (at least in part) by depreciation. > J > True, and all the equipment is purchaesed as capital investments and notJ > leased.  Plus, the cost of the equipment is, in many cases less than oneG > years employee costs (remembering that there is much more to employee L > costs than just salary.) and decreases through depreciation while employee > costs constantly increase.  F ...unless, of course, we're talking about the Kingdom of Far, Far AwayE where perhaps the Fairy Godmother provides industrial equipment at no  cost.   > Seriously, the Cost-To-Acquire of most industrial equipment isD non-trivial. The only financial justification lies in the differenceG between benefits and secondary expenses and the base salary/wage of the  workers "displaced".   > > L > > Yeah, you can juggle the numbers to produce any desired apparent effect,E > > but consider Sarb/Ox and the events leading to its genesis before G > > chalking up reduced production costs against the loss of production 3 > > capability inflicted by the reduction of staff.  > > * > >> welcome to the industrial revolution. > > % > > Welcome (back) to the real world.  > I > Again, reduction of staff does not imply guaranteed loss of production.   ) Doesn't guarantee against it, either. ;-)    > >  > >> >M > >> > There's always a way to keep automation from limiting your capacity to ! > >> > produce by reducing staff.  > >>G > >> Don't understand this.  Automation did limit anything.  Having the E > >> work done by people did. Since replacing those menial tasks with # > >> robots production has gone up.  > > G > > ProducTION or statistical producTIVITY per employee? (*VERY* *VERY*  > > important distinction!!!). > J > Well, if production goes up and number of employees goes down, obviouslyO > productivity per employee goes up.  But profits are not based on productivity K > per employee.  They are based on costs coming in and quantity of products  > going out.  7 ...which is where the cost of the gear comes into play.    > >  > >> >J > >> > At the factory I worked in 30 years ago, if we'd had people loadingO > >> > coils of slit steel onto the spools while we were running the production O > >> > line, our downtome to respool could have been cut more than in half, and M > >> > my spinal injury due to a winch malfunction could have been prevented. " > >> > (No union = no protection.) > >> >E > >> > Reducing staff *NEVER* increases productivity. It's a physical  > >> > impossibility.  > >>I > >> That's absurd.  I can think of thousands of jobs that are being done J > >> more efficiently by machines that used to be done by hand in the pastN > >> and in all cases, replacing the humans with machines increased productionK > >> and in most cases eliminated a menial, physically damaging (RSI) human 	 > >> job.  > > I > > Well, yes and no. Once the robotic lines are up and running, they can H > > crank out product tirelessly, if fed a constant source of materials. > > J > > I suppose the trucks/trains/ships/etc. load/unload themselves as well? > L > No, but I didn't say that every job can be done by a machine.  But, in theJ > case of a truck, it would take several men hours to empty or load what aJ > single man with a fork truck can do in a fraction of the time.  Ever seeL > a modern harbor?  Used to be product was loaded case by case into the holdM > of the ships by large numbers of stevedors.  Today robot cranes load truck- 5 > loads at a time with only one person operating it..   E ...at the dock. Little or no product is distributed directly from the ! dock, either now or historically.    > > G > > ...and when the robotic line breaks down, well, I'll leave room for B > > others to insert their own first-hand anecdotes at this point. > ; > And when the human calls in sick?  (even when he isn't!!)   B ...that's when you call your second line of support (the vendor?).   > > I > > Sorry, but its a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY to reduce staff (read: reduce L > > ability to produce) and increase productivity, no matter how you "juggle > > the numbers".  >  > staff != ability to produce   6 ...in all cases; however, this is frequently the case.  5 > And we won't even go into "The Mythical Man Month".    Not "myth", numerical fact!    > > F > >> Mechanical tasks can always be done faster and better by machinesK > >> than by humans.  (Human with screwdriver vs. robot with electric screw H > >> -driver.)  John Henry is a cute story, but has no basis in reality. > > G > > Never worked in factory, have you? (You just said you did; so, that ( > > claim about "John Henry" is absurd.) > I > Why John Henry beat the machine but it reulted in his death.  Kind of a  > Pyhrric victory.   Pyhrric ...or prophetic?   Too OT to debate further.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:45:54 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <4349D5E2.5DB5CF99@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote: I > > Sorry, but its a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY to reduce staff (read: reduce L > > ability to produce) and increase productivity, no matter how you "juggle > > the numbers".  >  > That is wrong.  
 No, it isn't.   J > Buy adding additional/new infrastructure, you can either decrease number* > of people needed and/or increase output.  A Depends. Reduction of staff != reduced operating costs. Costs may B actually (and frequently do) increase; so, increased production isC needed to cost-justify the automation. THis gives the appearance of E increased productivity when actually it's nothing more than an effort  balance costs versus revenue.   I > In cases where the company is bloated due to a merger, you can cut much H > staff without impacting productivity as long as the the saff being cut > is truly redundant.   E Depends. We've all seen cases where mergers followed by reductions in H "redundant" staff led to significant (if not catastrophic) reductions in service or quality levels.  E > But intelligent cutting is usually something which you can announce J > after the cuts have been made: "following streamlining of department X Y; > and Z, we have been able to reduce payroll byu X people."   H Reducing payroll is one thing. Actually producing an improved service or# product is something else entirely.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:46:21 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today, Message-ID: <4349F1F7.D424C3F4@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: C > Depends. Reduction of staff != reduced operating costs. Costs may D > actually (and frequently do) increase; so, increased production isE > needed to cost-justify the automation. THis gives the appearance of G > increased productivity when actually it's nothing more than an effort  > balance costs versus revenue.   E Yes, but consider that high end management read that some Wall Street H Casino analyst has criticised his company for having too many employees.G CEO then makes public big plans to layoff tons of employees. They don't H make veryt public that in order to do that, they have to spend megabucks4 to buy new machinery which will end up costing more.  F Or is many cases, large corporations have laid off employees and hiredF them back as consultants at higher rates. CEO can still claim employee count reductions.    G > Depends. We've all seen cases where mergers followed by reductions in J > "redundant" staff led to significant (if not catastrophic) reductions in > service or quality levels.  G That is because the CEO orders corporate-wide blind employee reductions B instead of focusing only on those departments where the merger did create duplicated employees.  B Consider La Carly who wanted to "complete" the merger ASAP and was@ applauded for her work, whereas Pfeiffer was more realistic withB integration of Digital and more patient, and was ousted because he didn't act quickly enough.      J > Reducing payroll is one thing. Actually producing an improved service or% > product is something else entirely.     F Exactly. And CEOs don't have the leadership skills to tell Wall StreetE Analysts to go and <reproductive act> themselves because the CEO will A streamline the company intelligently while improving products and  service levels.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 23:38:53 +0200 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>C Subject: Re: looking for VMS/Fortran/Rdb/OSU job in northern Europe ) Message-ID: <43498DED.5000404@vajhoej.dk>   : vmsfortranrdbosu@gNOmSPAMx.nREMOVEeCAPITAL_LETTERSt wrote:K > I have several years' experience with VMS, Fortran (77--95), Rdb and the  J > OSU HTTP server.  I am currently employed at a permanent position where I > I use some of these skills (and the others I keep polished elsewhere),  J > and at some time have been paid to use each of these skills (though not  > always all at once). > B > I am looking for a similar job in Sweden, Norway, Denmark or theJ > Netherlands.  Neither language nor residence/work permits are a problem. > K > I am looking for a permanent job, the plan being to move house once more  K > in my life.  It doesn't matter much where in these countries the job is,  1 > and travel as part of the job is not a problem.  > A > What is the best way to look for such jobs, for obvious reasons G > anonymously at first, in these countries?  What fraction of such jobs J > are advertised via, say, Monster?  Is it worth checking with individual E > companies?  If so, which ones?  What about contacting a headhunter  F > directly---does anyone have any experience with that and can anyone ! > recommend any good headhunters?    Denmark job sites:    http://www.jobworld.dk/    http://www.jobeasy.dk/   2 There are extremely few VMS jobs in Denmark today.   Maybe chances in Sweden    Arne   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:22:26 -0500( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>2 Subject: Re: TCPIP V5.4, SMTP & non-existant usersB Message-ID: <1128892947.6daa320ae2f61d1495917605ea31f234@teranews>  E On 10/08/2005 19:21:29 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:      > Funny, I woudl have put in:   K > Receiver-Checks-DeliverabilityL TRUE or FALSE.  This would have been fart  > more obvious.   N Yes, most farts are rather obvious.  Except for the Silent But Deadly variety, of course.  :-)  :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 18:27:19 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>2 Subject: Re: TCPIP V5.4, SMTP & non-existant users+ Message-ID: <4349A756.F339AC2B@comcast.net>    Wayne Sewell wrote:  > G > On 10/08/2005 19:21:29 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:  >  > > Funny, I woudl have put in:  > M > > Receiver-Checks-DeliverabilityL TRUE or FALSE.  This would have been fart  > > more obvious.  > P > Yes, most farts are rather obvious.  Except for the Silent But Deadly variety, > of course.  :-)  :-)  C I'd settle for SBD. Unfortunately, I more frequently experience the  "cheek flapper" variety...   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 23:18:42 -0500 % From: JORDAN <rjordan@mindspring.com> 2 Subject: Re: TCPIP V5.4, SMTP & non-existant users1 Message-ID: <t_Odnb5D4NdQQ9TeRVn-uA@megapath.net>    Steven M. Schweda wrote:1 > Subj:	Re: TCPIP V5.4, SMTP & non-existant users - >                                    existent - >                                    ========  >  > From: jordan@ccs4vms.com >  > D >>In one of the ECOs to TCPIP V5.4 for Alpha the ability to have theC >>receiver (as opposed to the actual SMTP symbiont) check for valid H >>addresses before accepting mail was added.  I'm pretty sure it was ECO; >>2, and its mentioned in the release notes for that patch.  >  > 4 >    I see it in SYS$HELP:TCPIP54ECO04.RELEASE_NOTES >  > > >>You can add the line "Symbiont-Checks-Deliverability" to theD >>SMTP.CONFIG file; set to TRUE to keep the current behavior, set toF >>FALSE makes the receiver check the existence of the recipient before >>accepting the mail.  >  > 6 >    It sounds good, but I still see bounces like this; > (SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$SMTP]TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.LOG;10246):  >  > $ Set NoOn1 > $ VERIFY = F$VERIFY(F$TRNLNM("SYLOGIN_VERIFY")) ; >    "SYS$REM_NODE" = "24.199.198.158::" (LNM$JOB_818D1040) s > send buf=220 alp.antinode.org V5.4-15F, OpenVMS V7.3-2 Alpha ready at Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:23:25 -0500 (CDT) \0d\0a + > recv buf=EHLO AENIGMADC.aenigma.net\0d\0a h > send buf=250 alp.antinode.org Hello rrcs-24-199-198-158.midsouth.biz.rr.com, pleased to meet you\0d\0a > recv buf=MAIL FROM:<>\0d\0a $ > send buf=250 <>... Sender OK\0d\0a9 > recv buf=RCPT TO:<abitallvagthibran@antinode.org>\0d\0a G > send buf=250 <<abitallvagthibran@antinode.org>>... Recipient OK\0d\0a  > recv buf=DATA\0d\0a = > send buf=354 Start mail input; end with <CRLF>.<CRLF>\0d\0a  > [...]  > : > There is no such user here, and my SMTP.CONFIG includes: > H > ! New in TCPIP V5.4 ECO 4: Reject bad user _before_ accepting message.' > Symbiont-Checks-Deliverability: FALSE * > !!! Symbiont-Checks-Deliverability: TRUE > G >    If anyone knows why all these (randomly generated) Recipient names < > would be considered "OK", I'd be pleased to hear about it. > I >    My (current) tale of woe involves a pharmaceutical dealer with a Web I > server in Korea (220.80.107.187, with a zillion domain names) who seems A > to have decided to use/forge my domain name in bulk junk e-mail J > solicitations.  For some weeks now I've been getting more than 1000 SMTPH > connection per hour.  Many are just this sort of bounce message, and aH > hundred or two get delivered most days.  On the bright side, since theD > hardware upgrade from an AlpSta 200 4/233 to a 500MHz XP1000, I've= > stopped getting the innumerable "service limit" complaints.  > @ >    The other bit of good news is that my latest version numberH > down-shift procedure seems to be working properly, so that my modifiedI > TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.COM can keep the ;32767 problem at bay.  It's a bad F > idea, I decided, to have two copies of the version number down-shift> > procedure running simultaneously.  Everything's complicated. > I >    As I've learned the hard way a couple of times now, it's also a good J > idea to keep a copy of a modified TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.COM file in a safeG > place, as it seems that every upgrade and ECO replaces the thing, and ! > discards the old one(s).  Grrr.  > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 6 >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98185 >    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org  >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547  >   D I assume you restarted the SMTP services after modifying the config H file?  I know its working at our customer sites because I was having to @ clean out the mail files every day or two (and I had to write a F reversion utility too), but after turning on that option the problems  cleared up almost completely.   E Try sending mail from an external source to bogus email addresses on  B your node and see what happens.  This is what I get on one of the F systems (though its still running TCPIP V5.4 ECO2, I haven't upgraded G past that yet due to scheduling conflicts).  Perhaps there's a problem  D with the feature in later ECOs?  I'll have to check that now before ! scheduling any further updates...     * $ telnet mail2.mysecretdomain.com /port=25, %TELNET-I-TRYING, Trying ... ###.###.###.###E %TELNET-I-SESSION, Session 01, host mail2.mysecretdomain.com, port 25 E 220 mail2.mysecretdomain.com V5.4-15D, OpenVMS V7.3-2 Alpha ready at   Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:11:38 -0600 HELO megapath.net H 250 mail2.mysecretdomain.com Hello ip-111-222-333-444.chi.megapath.net,  pleased to meet you  MAIL FROM: user@megapath.net$ 250 <user@megapath.net>... Sender OK& RCPT TO: mainten222@mysecretdomain.com@ 550 < mainten222@mysecretdomain.com> ... Addressee undeliverable& RCPT TO: systemyada@mysecretdomain.com@ 550 < systemyada@mysecretdomain.com> ... Addressee undeliverable quit  H Sympathies on having your domain abused by the scum; one of my personal G domains has been hit (so far lightly) by the same kind of thing; I get  F about 20 bounces a day to it, and a few snarky complaints a week from G folks who can't be bothered to determine that it didn't originate from  B my domain (and my website even has a disclaimer due to the abuse).     Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:55:41 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 2 Subject: Re: TCPIP V5.4, SMTP & non-existant users+ Message-ID: <4349F426.92B21C2@teksavvy.com>   
 JORDAN wrote: E > I assume you restarted the SMTP services after modifying the config 	 > file?     C Actually, the rexceiver starts a new process from scratch for every C incoming message. So you don't need to TCPIP> stop/start MAIL after G you've made changes to config file lines that affect only the receiver.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 17:54:23 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: VMS logo feedback needed , Message-ID: <43499185.FAEEC875@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:H > On the size question - just need to remember that it would not be good; > to have it so big that it slowed down web page loading ..   G The image can be scaled down once rendered. People have asked me in the H past to provide large images so that they can be scaled  down to desiredE size. So once this one is done, I'll provide as large format image as D well as probably once of the common size seen for the existing logo.  F I am having difficulty giving the scene some 3d look in a full frontalE view where everything is flat with no poerspective. So I have to play @ with the lighting and spacing of objects to provide some shading	 effects.    D For instance, if the shark (which is just a paper thin cutout of itsH outline with the picture of shark placed on it) is set right against the? background, it  casts no shadow, and if placed too far ahead of F background, it appears to just float without any physical relationship% to the background, giving a 2d look.    F Now, if I had a 3d model of the shark, it would be really different, I' could really make the shark stand out !    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:54:26 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> % Subject: RE: VMS logo feedback needed R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB70C1F5@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]=20  > Sent: October 9, 2005 5:54 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ' > Subject: Re: VMS logo feedback needed  >=20 > "Main, Kerry" wrote:A > > On the size question - just need to remember that it would=20 
 > not be good = > > to have it so big that it slowed down web page loading ..  >=20B > The image can be scaled down once rendered. People have asked=20 > me in the B > past to provide large images so that they can be scaled  down=20 > to desiredG > size. So once this one is done, I'll provide as large format image as F > well as probably once of the common size seen for the existing logo. >=20H > I am having difficulty giving the scene some 3d look in a full frontalG > view where everything is flat with no poerspective. So I have to play B > with the lighting and spacing of objects to provide some shading
 > effects.=20  >=20F > For instance, if the shark (which is just a paper thin cutout of itsA > outline with the picture of shark placed on it) is set right=20 
 > against the A > background, it  casts no shadow, and if placed too far ahead of H > background, it appears to just float without any physical relationship) > to the background, giving a 2d look.=20  >=20H > Now, if I had a 3d model of the shark, it would be really different, I) > could really make the shark stand out !  >=20  $ Perhaps these might be of interest -9 http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/231017 B http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-183338.html (enter shark in search	 criteria)     
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:48:05 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: VMS logo feedback needed , Message-ID: <4349C83B.62E126D5@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:& > Perhaps these might be of interest -; > http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/231017 D > http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-183338.html (enter shark in search > criteria)     E First one is quite impressive. But my old software doesn't know about H the .max format. And steep price just to know if I can handle it or not.% But defnitely a web site to bookmark.   D I have one 3d shark that came with the software, but it really ins,tF detailed enoughto be usable instead of the image. I'd have to make allC the teeth for instance, and generate the articulation of the body.  6 (yes, that is why real 3d models are quite expensive).   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:57:25 GMT 6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com>% Subject: Re: VMS logo feedback needed = Message-ID: <pMk2f.40142$ua.1584842@twister.southeast.rr.com>   ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:4348CEDD.C8CE594C@teksavvy.com... > 1 > http://www.vaxination.ca/vms/shark/pastille.jpg  >  > Questions: > 4 > -Should the HP logo be put on it ?  If so, where ? > 4 > -Should the OpenVMS be on top or below the shark ?   Looks good.   I Wouldn't hurt if something outlined the OpenVMS so it can be seen easier.   J Being able to change sizes would be great as you mentioned.  Can you make ' variations of it?  Like a 88x31 button.   J The ability to have seperate image files for the layers would be nice for 0 making 468x60, 125x125 or 130x130 banner images.       Ken   % _____________________________________  Kenneth Farmer <>< 336-736-7376 3 www.OpenVMS.org | dba.OpenVMS.org | dcl.OpenVMS.org  HP OpenVMS News and Info   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:53:32 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: VMS logo feedback needed + Message-ID: <4349F3A6.BACC318@teksavvy.com>    Kenneth Farmer wrote: K > Wouldn't hurt if something outlined the OpenVMS so it can be seen easier.   G Yep, the text will have to stand out far more. I want to give it a more  shiny and bright look.  K > Being able to change sizes would be great as you mentioned.  Can you make ) > variations of it?  Like a 88x31 button.   G Yes I can make variations. However, right now I have to focus on making G the scene. Once it is done, I can then render it and then take high res % images and scale them with photoshop.     K > The ability to have seperate image files for the layers would be nice for 2 > making 468x60, 125x125 or 130x130 banner images.  H I can give a TIFF file with alpha channel. This way you can overlay thatG image over another one or extract the alpha channel to generate a mask.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 15:46:28 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> ? Subject: RE: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB70C1EF@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----> > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@comcast.net]=20  > Sent: October 9, 2005 12:15 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com A > Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  >=20 > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > >=20  > > > -----Original Message-----4 > > > From: Dave Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com]# > > > Sent: October 8, 2005 1:13 PM  > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com E > > > Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  > > >  > > > Nigel Barker wrote: < > > > > On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 20:57:45 -0500, David J Dachtera! > > > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>  > > > > wrote: > > > >  > > > >  > > > >>FredK wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>[snip] > > > > >>>The voices in your head are suggesting that if VMS=20 > were to run on aB > > > >>>PC, that VMS would arbitrarily support any hardware...=20 >  and that is& > > > >>>beyond even wishful thinking. > > > >>, > > > >>Well, no - that seems a bit extreme. > > > >>H > > > >>The truth is, however, that with the major roadblock obliteratedH > > > >>(getting VMS natively onto IA32 and/or x86-64), the "impossible"@ > > > >>suddenly becomes possible - and from there, anything can > > > happen. It'sB > > > >>just a question of who is willing to do the work (write=20 > the drivers,> > > > >>etc.). In the open source world, there seems little=20 > doubt that if  > > > >>someone can, they will.  > > > >>= > > > >>We see that even in this group. Frequent posters here  > > > certainly being ? > > > >>among the ones most likely to roll their own, necessity  > > > being the mother > > > >>of invention.  > > > >  > > > > A > > > > Where are the people currently writing device drivers for  > > > sound cards, graphics B > > > > cards, wireless LAN cards etc? These are just a few of the > > > unsupported orC > > > > partially supported devices that have been discussed on the  > > > newsgroup in theC > > > > last few days. What makes you think that if VMS were on yet  > > > another hardwareB > > > > architecture that this would be any more likely to happen? > > > > 
 > > > > -- > > > > Nigel Barker' > > > > Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur  > > > >  > > > H > > > Sounds like something that should come out of the hobbyist people.H > > > There are already places that could make such available.  Or a newA > > > distribution site could be set up for drivers written by=20  > hobbyists. > > > A > > > Wonder how many people have a clue on how to begin to write  > > > such drivers?  > > >  > > > --: > > > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450: > > > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596D > > > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com > > > 170 Grimplin Road  > > > Vanderbilt, PA  15486  > > >  > >=20A > > Or perhaps there are some interested in assisting with the=20  > OpenOffice to  > > OpenVMS project? > >=20 > > Reference:" > > http://www.oooovms.dyndns.org/ >=20= > In pondering this and considering all the past arguments=20  > quetsioning the D > value of an office automation package on OpenVMS, I think I have a > better picture in my head: >=20 > Back-end Tier:=20  > (GS-Class/Superdome)	 > OpenVMS  > DECwindows/MOTIF > SWB  > OpenOffice > Oracle, RdB or mySQL >=20 > Middle Tier:=20  > (ES-Class / Integrity)	 > OpenVMS  > Middleware Applications ! > database components (as needed)  >=20& > Front-End (GUI application) Tier:=200 > (ES or GS-Class as needed to suport user load)	 > OpenVMS  > DECwindows/MOTIF >=20 > User-Interface Tier:" > Embedded Linux on IA32 or x86-64 > X  >=20D > The Front-end and Back-end tiers could conceiveably be combined to: > achieve better utilization of shared resources on the=20 > GS-Class machines , > (global sections, shareable images, etc.). >=208 > (Notice the total lack of Micro$lop in this scenario.) >=20     David,  2 And to add some fuel to the discussion, check out:H http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/apps/story/0,10801, 104885,00.html "Rise of the Virtual PC"  	 [snip...] F "If nothing else, this experiment lends credence to the idea that mostF people don't require 90% of what's in most desktop applications today.E But it also shows how IT can overcome configuration and manageability G challenges in innovative ways. Technology is blurring the lines between B applications and data, between local and remote execution, between client and server."    [snip..]   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 15:53:07 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? , Message-ID: <43497522.34986522@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: J > In pondering this and considering all the past arguments quetsioning theD > value of an office automation package on OpenVMS, I think I have a > better picture in my head: >  > Back-end Tier: > (GS-Class/Superdome)	 > OpenVMS  > DECwindows/MOTIF > SWB  > OpenOffice > Oracle, RdB or mySQL  E Until VMS management agree to put DECwindows/Motif on te VMS roadmap, ) should anyone be betting the bank on it ?   D Consider that on VMS, especially VAX, Motix is woefully out of date.B Does Open Motif make use of widgets which are not present on VMS ?    B In my opinion, the first step in getting VMS back into some ort ofH office automation usefulness would be to write CDA converters for modernG WORD as well as the now Open Document standard (XML) for both input and C output, as well as HTML output at least (HTML input would be nice).    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.565 ************************