1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 23 Aug 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 469       Contents: 60 GB IPOD deal found D Re: AlphaServer 4100 CPU speed upgrade and/or backplane speed ranges Another Inquirer rumor Re: Another Inquirer rumor Re: Australian DECUSI Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS! I Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS! I Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS! I RE: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS! I RE: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS! P Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS! run VMP Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS! VMS!VMP Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals shouldrun   VMS!   VMSH Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals shouldrun VMS!P Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals shouldrun VMS! VMS!VMSP Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals shouldrun VMS! VMS!VMS* Re: Chaining a .COM  or .EXE from an image* Re: Chaining a .COM  or .EXE from an image* Re: Chaining a .COM  or .EXE from an image encryption for backup  Re: encryption for backup  Re: encryption for backup  Re: HP 3rd quarter financials  Re: HP 3rd quarter financials * Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* RE: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?* Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem.( Re: Next project, C programming problem. Re: RAM 3 Re: Rumor Mill:  OpenVMS moving from Itanic to x86?  Re: SET FILE/ATTRIB LRL vs MRS Simh. How to triple the speed ! Re: Simh. How to triple the speed   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 11:37:48 -0700+ From: "spiglitz485" <adamfsmooth@gmail.com>  Subject: 60 GB IPOD deal foundC Message-ID: <1124735868.710242.325690@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E I just completed this offer for a 60 gb photo ipod and it is awesome! E My friend got one from it and he is waving it in my face and taunting A me! Anyways, all you have to do is complete a promotion offer and D cancel it before the 30 days trial is up and then get 8 referrals. IG recommend doing the rhapsody promotion because it is only $0.99 and you E get instant credit towards your ipod and 5 free song downloads. It is  so cool. Check it out.  ) http://www.freephotoiPods.com/?r=21360900    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:02:26 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.net M Subject: Re: AlphaServer 4100 CPU speed upgrade and/or backplane speed ranges * Message-ID: <SqoOe.6417$137.3703@trnddc08>  / Duncan Brown <brown_du@eisner.decus.org> wrote:  > Norman Lastovica wrote:   F > > for certain install all the available VMS patches.  it is entirelyE > > possible that you've changed timing on the system enough to cause H > > problems that have already been fixed.  the TQE format bugcheck sure, > > makes me suspect something in that area.  J > Hmm, good point.  I was so convinced I had done a hardware no-no that I H > didn't think about having tripped up on some latent VMS problem.  I'd H > still like to hear some voice (or PDF file...) of authority bless the G > basic concept of putting a 533MHz CPU board in a box that originally    > came with 400MHz ones, though.  E I had a 4100 at home that I upgraded from 300MHz CPUs to 533MHz CPUs. F I didn't have to change any hardware.  I did upgrade the firmware whenF I first installed them as the firmware in them was old.  I already hadE VMS (V7.3-1 at the time, later V7.3-2) installed and updated with all  the patches.  7 I've since sold the system and replaced it with a DS20.   C I can sympathize on the power costs.  I've got a lot running in the B computer room at home and have to use a window AC unit to help the house AC cool the room.  --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:31:34 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Another Inquirer rumor 0 Message-ID: <11gl9dkb2ji0gb0@corp.supernews.com>  G Ok, it's the Inquirer, so it's a rumor.  But for those counting on the   itanic competing with Power:  H Montvale, the 3.0GHz wonder child that was going to vault them over the G top of Power? Well, that chip just lost 900MHz along with the previous  I 25nm of process width. The thing that will have to hold the line against  D Power 5, 5+ and possibly 6 will be a 2.1GHz Montvale, and that just 
 won't cut it.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:31:45 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net># Subject: Re: Another Inquirer rumor = Message-ID: <AOSdnT_PkK1eKZfeRVn-iw@metrocastcablevision.com>    Dave Froble wrote:I > Ok, it's the Inquirer, so it's a rumor.  But for those counting on the   > itanic competing with Power: > J > Montvale, the 3.0GHz wonder child that was going to vault them over the I > top of Power? Well, that chip just lost 900MHz along with the previous  K > 25nm of process width. The thing that will have to hold the line against  F > Power 5, 5+ and possibly 6 will be a 2.1GHz Montvale, and that just  > won't cut it.   8 Well, some rumors are a bit more credible than others...  G Long ago Montecito was expected to release at over 2 GHz (since it's a  I full process generation beyond Madison, which debuted at 1.5 GHz and has  G now struggled up to 1.667 GHz).  In the continuing saga of diminishing  F Itanic expectations, for quite a while it then was widely expected to F release at 2 GHz.  Current indications however point to 1.8 GHz (with H rumors that it's having some difficulty even hitting that - e.g., AFAIK F the only benchmark numbers yet discussed are for 1.6 GHz parts), with + *perhaps* a 2 GHz release next March or so.   B Montvale originally was planned to be a process generation beyond D Montecito (65 nm. vs. 90 nm.), hence likely noticeably faster (this I could be where that surprisingly recent HP presentation got its '2.5 - 3  E GHz' estimate from).  But months ago Intel announced that instead of  F being a significantly improved product in the next process generation C Montvale would only be a warmed-over Montecito in the same process  C generation - making '2.5 - 3 GHz' look about as realistic as Rob's  G prediction about 4 years ago that McKinley (which never made it past 1  4 GHz) would clock at 1.4 GHz and perhaps even higher.  H So while "Just wait for Montecito!" is rapidly becoming as laughable as I "Just wait for McKinley!" and "Just wait for Madison!" turned out to be,  C "Just wait for Montvale!" (which ISTR being voiced here even quite  0 recently) is also starting to sound pretty thin.  F What will the next refrain be?  The new version of Tukwila (no longer E the new core that the Alpha team was working on but just yet another  F in-bred re-spin of the McKinley core, though with an improved on-chip G support structure around it) is still nominally scheduled for 2007 but  I increasingly looking more like about December 85, 2007.  That's probably  H far enough out to let the true believers chant "Just wait for Tukwila!" E for at least the next 18 months - and if the on-chip facilities that  E Intel's x86 products should have already acquired by then look good,  H they'll likely  puff out their chests and explain how Tukwila will make F *even better* use of them (just 'way too late, as usual).  "Just wait I for Poulson!" would come next, except that rumor has it that Poulson may  2 never make it out of the complete vaporware stage.  I I'd be tempted to say that time will tell, except that every time Itanic  G has come up short for the past 4 years its cheerleaders here have just  @ shifted their focus ahead to the next yet-unreleased (and hence F yet-unchallengeable) product.  So time may only tell for those better F grounded in reality, and the predictions of Itanic supremacy may ring I out until Intel publicly scuttles the thing beyond question (and perhaps  G even beyond, considering how some people have clung to the possibility  E of resurrecting Alpha for years past the obvious point of no return).    - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:13:46 +0000 (UTC) ? From: Graham Burley <burley.not-this@encompasserve-or-this.org>  Subject: Re: Australian DECUS 9 Message-ID: <430A1608.2D04476B@encompasserve-or-this.org>    John Proctor wrote:   F > Can I join any other 'DECUS' chapter so that I can get access to the > hobbyist programme  8 Yes, you can join as an Associate at www.encompassus.org   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 11:48:38 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com R Subject: Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS!C Message-ID: <1124736517.984701.320400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   . vms can certainly and should certainly replace0 windows in any server environment, that includes, web, mail, database ... and once some office+ package is ported, then the desktop becomes 1 doable ... with decwindows and mozilla and word11 2 and 20/20 and graphics outlook and wordperfect out4 there for vms, it certainly is possible now ... with, powerterm or some other vt emulator now on a/ thin client which you can buy, we have replaced  windoze on the desktop ...   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:58:56 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)R Subject: Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS!6 Message-ID: <00A48ABA.DD63307F@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  _ In article <1124736517.984701.320400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes: / >vms can certainly and should certainly replace 1 >windows in any server environment, that includes - >web, mail, database ... and once some office , >package is ported, then the desktop becomes2 >doable ... with decwindows and mozilla and word113 >and 20/20 and graphics outlook and wordperfect out 5 >there for vms, it certainly is possible now ... with - >powerterm or some other vt emulator now on a 0 >thin client which you can buy, we have replaced >windoze on the desktop ...   M Dude, seriously, Word-11 as a word-processing solution?  I think they'll sell K it to you, but it's not like a cursory glance can even _find_ it on the DPD  website.  K It was great for industrial strength Wang-style word processing, but so was M MultiMate on the PC, and where is MultiMate now?  How much money do you spend M on  training people to use Word-11, and for that matter where do you get  the  special keycaps any more?   H (I think MS Word is ludicrous overkill for most of the stuff that peopleJ use it for, but in fact you can plop somebody down in front of it and theyF can write a memo without having to know anything except how to use theH mouse.  The learning challenge rises steeply when you want to use it forI more than the basics, or want to override some of the defaults.  But plop J somebody down in front of a  VT-emulated terminal and have them figure out? the mapping to Word-11 and then try to actually do anything? My F administrative users _hate_ Word-11 and use MS Word whenever they can,I which makes them hate Word-11 even more because what proficiency they had I tends to erode.  I am not an apologist for MS Word; I use EVE and DSR for   everything I can get away with.)     -- Alan    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:05:56 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)R Subject: Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS!6 Message-ID: <00A48AD4.FD088D94@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  \ In article <430A6B64.E673A707@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:- >Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: K >> (I think MS Word is ludicrous overkill for most of the stuff that people M >> use it for, but in fact you can plop somebody down in front of it and they I >> can write a memo without having to know anything except how to use the 
 >> mouse.  >  > I >But when you compare WORD for DOS with ALL-IN1/WPSPLUS, DEC had a better G >products with ALLIn1 keyboards and intuitive commands and full fledged 2 >email at a time when Microsoft didn't have email. > A >And DEC had a GUI wordprocessor (DECWRITE) well before Microsoft  >migrated WORD to MS-Windows.  > G >DEC had clustering of worksttation well before Microsoft had a working F >"file server" (a far inferior solution), DEC had security well before, >Windows had a pretense of username/password >  > G >DEC also had the CDA/DDIF architecture that, if developped, could have / >transparently supported a ton of file formats.  > B >The potential was there. Not quite as good as MACs back then, but/ >running on a real OS and with great potential.   : But Bob is suggesting that, _today_, his list of 80s-styleK character-cell-oriented VMS software removes the need for PC desktops, and   he includes Word-11 on it.  J Yes, it might have been possible to have continued development of a robustJ GUI office suite on VMS, but it didn't happen!  (It may still be possible,I with the Unix porting initiative, to get OpenOffice or the various Linux  H products up on VMS - opening it to some application vulnerabilities, no + doubt - but that's not where we are today.)    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:23:48 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> R Subject: RE: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS!R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB6B20B5@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing=20, > [mailto:winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU]=20  > Sent: August 22, 2005 10:06 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com = > Subject: Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why=20  > hospitals should run VMS!  >=20: > In article <430A6B64.E673A707@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei=20( > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:/ > >Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > > >> (I think MS Word is ludicrous overkill for most of the=20 > stuff that people = > >> use it for, but in fact you can plop somebody down in=20  > front of it and they? > >> can write a memo without having to know anything except=20  > how to use the > >> mouse.=20 > >  > > A > >But when you compare WORD for DOS with ALL-IN1/WPSPLUS, DEC=20  > had a better? > >products with ALLIn1 keyboards and intuitive commands and=20  > full fledged4 > >email at a time when Microsoft didn't have email. > > C > >And DEC had a GUI wordprocessor (DECWRITE) well before Microsoft  > >migrated WORD to MS-Windows.  > > B > >DEC had clustering of worksttation well before Microsoft had=20 > a working H > >"file server" (a far inferior solution), DEC had security well before. > >Windows had a pretense of username/password > >  > > A > >DEC also had the CDA/DDIF architecture that, if developped,=20  > could have1 > >transparently supported a ton of file formats.  > > D > >The potential was there. Not quite as good as MACs back then, but1 > >running on a real OS and with great potential.  >=20< > But Bob is suggesting that, _today_, his list of 80s-styleA > character-cell-oriented VMS software removes the need for PC=20  > desktops, and=20 > he includes Word-11 on it. >=207 > Yes, it might have been possible to have continued=20  > development of a robust B > GUI office suite on VMS, but it didn't happen!  (It may still=20 > be possible,? > with the Unix porting initiative, to get OpenOffice or the=20  > various Linux=208 > products up on VMS - opening it to some application=20 > vulnerabilities, no=20- > doubt - but that's not where we are today.)  >=20	 > -- Alan  >=20   Alan,   = Do not forget DECwrite. As someone who used it in a Motif GUI C environment on OpenVMS WS's for a number of years, it really was an G excellent gui editor - as you say, you could sit someone down and start  typing.   H DECwrite even had some nice features which I have not seen in any of theG so called GUI editors today. As an example, you could embed codes (kind B of like WP codes) that allowed you to write one document, but whenC printing, by specifying different values for symbols, you could get F different outputs. As an example, <internal> or <external> definitionsH could determine what version of the document got printed to PS or to the printer.  G I am not saying I believe that DECwrite will return, but with Microsoft > moving to adopt XML as a std format, it will open the door for+ alternative editors on different platforms.    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 04:42:51 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)R Subject: RE: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS!6 Message-ID: <00A48AEA.E8FFAA4C@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  Y In article <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB6B20B5@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, " Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes:  D [snippage of quoting of me slagging Bob for suggesting Word-11 as an2 adequate word processor that makes MS unnecessary] > > >Do not forget DECwrite. As someone who used it in a Motif GUID >environment on OpenVMS WS's for a number of years, it really was anH >excellent gui editor - as you say, you could sit someone down and start >typing. >   I Yes, it was pretty nice; I used it too.  The ability to embed and display ; PostScript was pretty helpful for making pretty documents.    I >DECwrite even had some nice features which I have not seen in any of the H >so called GUI editors today. As an example, you could embed codes (kindC >of like WP codes) that allowed you to write one document, but when D >printing, by specifying different values for symbols, you could getG >different outputs. As an example, <internal> or <external> definitions I >could determine what version of the document got printed to PS or to the 	 >printer.   O Ooh, never got into that.  I liked the Document approach for that.  (Basically, G I wanted DECwrite for WYSIWYG and Document for well-organized output in  different formats.)    > H >I am not saying I believe that DECwrite will return, but with Microsoft? >moving to adopt XML as a std format, it will open the door for , >alternative editors on different platforms.  J One hopes.  (I have trouble believing MS's embrace of XML is anything but  "embrace, extend, extinguish.")    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:06:16 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Y Subject: Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS! run VM 0 Message-ID: <11gl4dq7p4kt1a1@corp.supernews.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:2 > In article <11gifqe14a4oha4@corp.supernews.com>,, > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>3 >>>In article <11gfhh5ahbroqe4@corp.supernews.com>, - >>>	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>>  >>>  >>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> >>>>H >>>>>In article <1124565228.925988.212330@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,! >>>>>	bob@instantwhip.com writes:  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>> J >>>>>>"This is a good example of why you can't protect a weak OS with someL >>>>>>router only because if something happens from tyhe inside, you are hit >>>>>>just as badly."  >>>>>>8 >>>>>>so why haven't all these windoze cios figured this" >>>>>>out yet and switched to vms? >>>>>  >>>>> J >>>>>Because the security provided by VMS carries with it the same penalty< >>>>>as a secured windows box.  No real world functionality. >>>>> 	 >>>>>bill  >>>>>  >>>>! >>>>Now that I'll not agree with.  >>>  >>> 3 >>>Wether you agree or not does not change reality.  >>F >>If I'm right it defines reality.  You write as if reality is as you  >>define it. >  > H > No, I just think there are many people here (in c.o.v) who's vision ofC > reality somehow has VMS in a much loftier place than it currently F > occupies.  Don't get me wrong, I find my job moving more and more toE > Windows, just like everyone else and like most of the people here I F > don't like it either.  It's more work and a lot more headaches.  But6 > the position MS holds in the IT industry is reality!   We will agree on that reality.  L >>>>If you define real world functionality being able to run MS Office, and K >>>>some do, then you have a point.  But MS Office isn't the only thing in   >>>>the world worth doing. >>>  >>> F >>>What is the current function of the largest percentage of computers >>>in use today? >>H >>First, we could get into a lengthly and meaningless argument over the J >>definition of 'a computer'.  That deviates from the topic, so let's not. >>H >>It could be argued that 'upgraded typewriters' are one of the largest A >>segments of computing today.  I'll agree with that.  Ditto for  $ >>calculators, telephones, and such. >  > G > Well, the origin of this discussion was "Why not replace Windows with H > VMS?" so I think we can eliminate typewriters, phones and calculators.  F Correct.  DEC/Compaq/HP not only lost VMS on the desktop, they didn't 
 even compete.   K >>Large segments of the whole are not everything.  Majority, yes.  All, no.  >> >>9 >>> Server apps?  Or Desktop apps?  Where are the largest H >>>number of Windows boxes that get infected with the virus-du-jour?  In' >>>the server room?  Or on the desktop?  >>5 >>I'd expect the desktop, gameroom, gossip tool, etc.  >> >>I >>>So, where does VMS have to take over to have any impact on the current E >>>situation?  And, what possibility is there of that ever happening?  >>2 >>Whoops!  Hold on there.  Don't change the topic. >  > G > Not changing the subject.  That was the original subject.  Brought up E > by Boob. He, once again, suggested that VMS could replace all these 8 > infected Windows boxes and reality is that it can not. > G >>The topic, and you named it, is whether a secured VMS system has any   >>real world functionality.  >  > H > No, it wasn't. The original subject was VMS ability to replace all theH > virus infected Windows boxes.  And my argument was that if you look atJ > what the majority of those machines are doing, VMS lacks that real world > functionality.  ( Quoting you, regardless of boob's topic:  F "Because the security provided by VMS carries with it the same penalty8 as a secured windows box.  No real world functionality."  * I replied to those last 4 words you wrote.  I >>I design, write, install, and support real world applications that run  C >>on VMS systems.  Unfortunately, I do the same for windoz systems.  >  > I > Sure, but what percentage of either class of machines are running those E > particular applications?  Like it or not, the majority of the virus D > infected machines are running things like Web Browsers and Office.I > Can VMS replace them to the level that the user community would demand?    No, it cannot!  F >>Not one of my customers using VMS has ever had any type of security H >>issue, not even a minor issue.  Why?  Because security is an integral E >>part of the design and implementation and operations.  An employee  F >>leaves?  A pre-determined set of procedures takes place.  Users are I >>formally trained to avoid sharing security information.  User tracking  E >>is built into the application, not tacked on afterward.  Users are  G >>instructed that if a transaction shows up with their identification,  G >>they are responsible for the transaction, regardless of who actually  
 >>entered it.  >>H >>Ok, you may ask what role VMS plays in such a scenario.  The security K >>design and implementation is really OS independent.  The reason for such  J >>designed in security comes from a long background of being aware of the E >>importance of security.  A VMS environment tends to encourage such  J >>considerations.  Your typical windoz user and shop do not.  They could,  >>but normally do not. >> >> >>>Sorry, reality check. >>D >>Yes, a reality check.  Using even one customer, I can refute your I >>statement about a secured VMS system.  From my experience, starting in  H >>1973, I can state that with VMS it's easier to implement security, in F >>the application, and in the environment.  My experience with windoz 1 >>tends to make me appreciate VMS more than ever.  >  > G > Once again, the point is missed.  I am not and have never argued that F > VMS isn't secure.  I said it is irrelevant because the users can notF > do what they want to do on a VSM system.  They could, but the ownersG > of VMS choose not to make that possibility a reality.  At this point, F > even if they could it is unlikely that VMS could regain that market.E > Heck, Linux is free and it still hasn't driven MS from the desktop.   F True about the owners of VMS.  A very important statement about Linux.  G >>I'm a VMS bigot and advocate.  I'm not a glutton for punishment.  My  D >>e-mail, newsreader, and office stuff in done on a PC.  A decently C >>protected network environment, prompted by a VMS background, and  1 >>vindicated by today's insanity on the Internet.  >  > H > And I'm not any kind of a bigot.  I have used more OSes than I care toJ > remember all had their strengths and their weaknesses (Ok, some may onlyJ > have weaknesses) and just like in the language debate I think you shouldH > use the OS that best fits the job.  VMS "could" be the right fit for aL > lot more than it currently is, but that is up to HP and they do not appearH > to agree.  All the bigots int he world can't fix that.  Unless you you? > consider them all monkeys and give them all keyboards........   G Agreed.  HP is the party falling down with respect to VMS.  As for the  H desktop, they are content to push wintel.  Doesn't make them any money,  but they are content.   B Another point that didn't come up.  VMS on the desktop, using new B hardware and software, is not price competitive.  Not even close. F Another HP issue.  They don't have to price for the desktop, and they H don't.  It's a choice they've made.  So even if a third party developed G a GUI and office automation products for VMS, they could not sell them  ( because of the price of the base system.  E HP may state that they need specific margins for VMS systems, but no  ; matter the percentage, multiplied by zero still gives zero.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:19:01 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> Y Subject: Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals should run VMS! VMS!VM , Message-ID: <430A6B64.E673A707@teksavvy.com>  , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:J > (I think MS Word is ludicrous overkill for most of the stuff that peopleL > use it for, but in fact you can plop somebody down in front of it and theyH > can write a memo without having to know anything except how to use the	 > mouse.      H But when you compare WORD for DOS with ALL-IN1/WPSPLUS, DEC had a betterF products with ALLIn1 keyboards and intuitive commands and full fledged1 email at a time when Microsoft didn't have email.   @ And DEC had a GUI wordprocessor (DECWRITE) well before Microsoft migrated WORD to MS-Windows.  F DEC had clustering of worksttation well before Microsoft had a workingE "file server" (a far inferior solution), DEC had security well before + Windows had a pretense of username/password     F DEC also had the CDA/DDIF architecture that, if developped, could have. transparently supported a ton of file formats.  A The potential was there. Not quite as good as MACs back then, but . running on a real OS and with great potential.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:08:48 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Y Subject: Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals shouldrun   VMS!   VMS 0 Message-ID: <11gl4if77ca8260@corp.supernews.com>   GreyCloud wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: >  >>GreyCloud wrote: >> >>>David J Dachtera wrote: >>>  >>>  >>>>GreyCloud wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>bob@instantwhip.com wrote:  >>>>>  >>>>> ; >>>>>>what have you been drinking?  I can give any user any ? >>>>>>functionality I want ... what real world functionality is  >>>>>>missing in your world? >>>>> > >>>>>I still don't understand, after all the noise made by the? >>>>>insecurity of M$ windows, that those responsible for their $ >>>>>IT budget still buy M$ windows. >>>>7 >>>>See http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?addiction  >>>> >>>  >>> 6 >>>So sad. Windows is such a waste of productive time. >>C >>No.  Office automation has been a great increase in productivity. A >>Unfortunately, past knowledge was ignored by those new to using @ >>computers as part of their job, and that has been exploited by >>Microsoft, and others. >>G >>There is more than a little fault to be assessed to IT professionals, H >>and I use the term loosely.  I can remember how DP treated users, whenI >>users were a captive audience.  "You'll get it when we're ready to give G >>it to you.  Your problems and deadlines and such aren't our problem." I >>When the audience gained some freedom, in some cases the IT people were J >>the last to be listened to, and some decisions were probably made solely4 >>because they were the opposite of what IT advised. >>C >>In some cases the audience doesn't want to give up their freedom.  >> >  > ; > I can remember when DP said that to us as well.  When the > > main chain of command asked "Where is that report?", we told< > them that DP wasn't serving our needs so no report yet.  A= > day or so later, DPs attitude was one of 'Ooh, all right...  > here.'  D Yep, go far enough up the ladder, and the hammer became big enough. H Those weilding the hammer many times were the wintel advocates, because D they were tired of putting up with the self inflated DP people, who   didn't realize why they existed.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:16:49 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> Q Subject: Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals shouldrun VMS! , Message-ID: <430A9504.5BF69D8D@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:G > Correct.  DEC/Compaq/HP not only lost VMS on the desktop, they didn't  > even compete.   F Palmer acually cannabalised it. Signed a deal with gates which saw DECC drop ALL-IN-1 development (a few months after it had been announced G All-in-1 was being ported to Tru64 and Windows-NT, and remember that A1 G supported Office through a MAPI interface and well as Teamlinks Windows B (and MAC) software so it wasn't just a character cell application)  G Same with email.  Palmer used the migration to Alpha to kill DEC's main E position in email backbones by abandonning message router and forcing B customers to buy licences for mailbus 400 with 0 credit for the MRF software they had.  (years later, when it was too late, it did finally& offer and upgrade from MR to Mailbus).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:18:32 -0600 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>Y Subject: Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals shouldrun VMS! VMS!VMS ( Message-ID: <430A3318.8AAE53BC@mist.com>   Dave Froble wrote: >  > GreyCloud wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > >  > >>GreyCloud wrote: > >> > >>>bob@instantwhip.com wrote:  > >>> ; > >>>>what have you been drinking?  I can give any user any ? > >>>>functionality I want ... what real world functionality is  > >>>>missing in your world? > >>> > > >>>I still don't understand, after all the noise made by the? > >>>insecurity of M$ windows, that those responsible for their $ > >>>IT budget still buy M$ windows. > >>7 > >>See http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?addiction  > >> > >  > > 7 > > So sad. Windows is such a waste of productive time.  > C > No.  Office automation has been a great increase in productivity. A > Unfortunately, past knowledge was ignored by those new to using @ > computers as part of their job, and that has been exploited by > Microsoft, and others. > G > There is more than a little fault to be assessed to IT professionals, H > and I use the term loosely.  I can remember how DP treated users, whenI > users were a captive audience.  "You'll get it when we're ready to give G > it to you.  Your problems and deadlines and such aren't our problem." I > When the audience gained some freedom, in some cases the IT people were J > the last to be listened to, and some decisions were probably made solely4 > because they were the opposite of what IT advised. > C > In some cases the audience doesn't want to give up their freedom.  >   9 I can remember when DP said that to us as well.  When the < main chain of command asked "Where is that report?", we told: them that DP wasn't serving our needs so no report yet.  A; day or so later, DPs attitude was one of 'Ooh, all right...  here.'   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:34:10 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Y Subject: Re: Cerner hopefully is using Zotob to show why hospitals shouldrun VMS! VMS!VMS 0 Message-ID: <11gl9igokise871@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > G >>Correct.  DEC/Compaq/HP not only lost VMS on the desktop, they didn't  >>even compete.  >  > H > Palmer acually cannabalised it. Signed a deal with gates which saw DECE > drop ALL-IN-1 development (a few months after it had been announced I > All-in-1 was being ported to Tru64 and Windows-NT, and remember that A1 I > supported Office through a MAPI interface and well as Teamlinks Windows D > (and MAC) software so it wasn't just a character cell application) > I > Same with email.  Palmer used the migration to Alpha to kill DEC's main G > position in email backbones by abandonning message router and forcing D > customers to buy licences for mailbus 400 with 0 credit for the MRH > software they had.  (years later, when it was too late, it did finally( > offer and upgrade from MR to Mailbus).  I Don't mention palmer to me, unless you've got a rope, and know where the   bastard is.   # Some memories are just too painful.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:15:16 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 3 Subject: Re: Chaining a .COM  or .EXE from an image 0 Message-ID: <11gl4uicg7bj937@corp.supernews.com>    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:i > In article <dechj8$gpt$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>, Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes:  > " >>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>L >>>LIB$DO_COMMAND writes the command to a "buffer" for DCL and signals it to( >>>execute the command in this "buffer". >>> M >>>There are mechanics in DCL to "CHAIN" programs as well but there is no RTL M >>>to access this.  One must built build a dispatch block and inform DCL that N >>>a chain is desired.  Simple enough to do but it will require elevated/priv- >>>ileged access.  >> >>There's also lib$run_program >  > J > This requires the image specification.  I don't believe this will accept > block chains.  >  > K >>I'd guess the basic rtl has some kind of chain, too, since chain is part   >>of the basic language. >  >  > Basic?   Well, somebody has to say it.    You got a problem with BASIC?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:52:45 +0000 7 From: David B Sneddon - bigpond <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> 3 Subject: Re: Chaining a .COM  or .EXE from an image * Message-ID: <430A9D8D.1080702@bigpond.com>  ! Dave Froble mentioned in passing: " > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > F >> In article <dechj8$gpt$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>, Chris Sharman ' >> <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes:  >>$ >>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>> I >>>> LIB$DO_COMMAND writes the command to a "buffer" for DCL and signals  
 >>>> it to* >>>> execute the command in this "buffer". >>>>I >>>> There are mechanics in DCL to "CHAIN" programs as well but there is   >>>> no RTL G >>>> to access this.  One must built build a dispatch block and inform  
 >>>> DCL that B >>>> a chain is desired.  Simple enough to do but it will require  >>>> elevated/priv-  >>>> ileged access.  >>>  >>>   >>> There's also lib$run_program >> >> >>K >> This requires the image specification.  I don't believe this will accept  >> block chains. >> >>H >>> I'd guess the basic rtl has some kind of chain, too, since chain is  >>> part of the basic language.  >> >> >>	 >> Basic?  >  >  > Well, somebody has to say it.  >  > You got a problem with BASIC?  >   ? The CHAIN statement in BASIC is implemented via LIB$RUN_PROGRAM    Regards, Dave --  B David B Sneddon (dbs) VMS Systems Programmer dbsneddon@bigpond.comB Sneddo's quick guide ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/B DBS freeware   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:37:13 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 3 Subject: Re: Chaining a .COM  or .EXE from an image 0 Message-ID: <11gl9o7ai3qkq48@corp.supernews.com>    David B Sneddon - bigpond wrote:# > Dave Froble mentioned in passing:  > # >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  >>G >>> In article <dechj8$gpt$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>, Chris Sharman  ( >>> <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes: >>> % >>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  >>>>J >>>>> LIB$DO_COMMAND writes the command to a "buffer" for DCL and signals  >>>>> it to + >>>>> execute the command in this "buffer".  >>>>> J >>>>> There are mechanics in DCL to "CHAIN" programs as well but there is  >>>>> no RTLH >>>>> to access this.  One must built build a dispatch block and inform  >>>>> DCL thatC >>>>> a chain is desired.  Simple enough to do but it will require   >>>>> elevated/priv- >>>>> ileged access. >>>> >>>> >>>>! >>>> There's also lib$run_program  >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> L >>> This requires the image specification.  I don't believe this will accept >>> block chains.  >>>  >>> I >>>> I'd guess the basic rtl has some kind of chain, too, since chain is    >>>> part of the basic language. >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> 
 >>> Basic? >> >> >>  >> Well, somebody has to say it. >>  >> You got a problem with BASIC? >> > A > The CHAIN statement in BASIC is implemented via LIB$RUN_PROGRAM  > 
 > Regards, > Dave  F Yep, and VMS was modified to support the old RSTS core common concept 8 for communication between invoking and invoked programs.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 13:42:50 -0700 From: JimStrehlow@data911.com  Subject: encryption for backupC Message-ID: <1124743370.561929.132860@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   1 I am interested in OpenVMS ENCRYPTION for BACKUP. F I might test the product to recommend to some of our customers who may be interested.   I noticed a Nov. 2004 article 6 http://www.openvms.org/phorum/read.php?f=5&i=356&t=356  A How accurate is the reported problem with encrypting/decrypting a  BACKUP save_set? Has that been fixed?6 Do YOU use Encryption for OpenVMS on backup save_sets?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:34:11 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> " Subject: Re: encryption for backup, Message-ID: <430A44CD.272AF8FA@teksavvy.com>  6 OK, you asked about how to redefine the cobol command:   in SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGIN.COM:   # $COB*OL :== "@dev:[dir]mycobol.com"   E If you wish to restrict this to only students, and students will have A accounts created in a certain group, you could have code such as:   G $IF F$GETJPI("","GRP") .eq. 200 then COB*OL :== "@dev:[dir]mycobol.com"   : For other users, the cobol command would not be redefined.       and in mycobol.com:    $! commands to fix the file  $ SET FILE 'p1/attr=xxxxxx' $COBOLX 'p1 'p2 'p3 'p4 'p5 'p6 'p7 'p8  $!  G by using "COBOLX", it mypasses the symbol substitution and instead goes 3 thorugh the DCLTABLES to execude the COBOL command.     A Note that the above assumes a command would always be entered as:   * COBOL mypgm.cob /anyoption /option /option   (eg: filename first.)   C One could modify the command procedure to use f$search to test each Q parameter to see if it is a file and use the SET FILE commands on that paremeter.    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 15:49:09 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com " Subject: Re: encryption for backupC Message-ID: <1124750949.774090.133920@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   ) the product was called DECENCRYPT and the , last time I checked several years ago it was/ still available for purchase ... just call your + HP sales rep ... it may take a few hours to * find someone who knows about it, but it is still there ...    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 18:54:04 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>& Subject: Re: HP 3rd quarter financialsC Message-ID: <1124762044.414708.160440@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote: ( > Media are pointing to HP as a success.   That's good!   > Relevant to us:  >  > ##  > Enterprise Storage and Servers > J >   Enterprise Storage and Servers (ESS) reported revenue of $4.0 billion,? > up 20% over the prior-year period. On a year-over-year basis, C > industry-standard server revenue increased 28%, business-critical G > systems (BCS) revenue grew 7% and networked storage revenue grew 15%. J > Within BCS, revenue in HP Integrity servers grew 113% year-over-year andJ > HP-UX revenue grew 8%. ESS reported an operating profit of $150 million,F > or 3.8% of revenue, up from a loss of $211 million in the prior-year	 > period.  >  > ##  E Please pardon my ignorance, but how is ESS different from BCS? Aren't E business critical systems part of enterprises? Don't enterprises need G BCS? Isn't there considerable overlap at least? OK. I guess ESS doesn't A include software. But doesn't "systems" (as in BCS) comprise both F hardware and software? It would seem so since HP Integrity servers andE HP-UX are "within BCS", but why aren't Integrity servers part of ESS?  ... You get the idea.    Clarification welcome.   TIA.  # > HP-UX is mentioned. Why not VMS ?    Good point.    [...]   F > Also, why is it Enterprise Storage and Servers instead of EnterpriseH > Servers and Storage ? Is this a sign that the storage guy (is it still  E 'Sounds better. More practically, perhaps it's an effort to emphasize / storage to help hp regain market share therein.    [...]    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 03:01:35 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) & Subject: Re: HP 3rd quarter financialsL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2208052301330001@user-105n8re.dialup.mindspring.com>  I In article <1124762044.414708.160440@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF"  <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote:    >JF Mezei wrote:) >> Media are pointing to HP as a success.  > 
 >That's good!  >  >> Relevant to us: >> >> ## ! >> Enterprise Storage and Servers  >>K >>   Enterprise Storage and Servers (ESS) reported revenue of $4.0 billion, @ >> up 20% over the prior-year period. On a year-over-year basis,D >> industry-standard server revenue increased 28%, business-criticalH >> systems (BCS) revenue grew 7% and networked storage revenue grew 15%.K >> Within BCS, revenue in HP Integrity servers grew 113% year-over-year and K >> HP-UX revenue grew 8%. ESS reported an operating profit of $150 million, G >> or 3.8% of revenue, up from a loss of $211 million in the prior-year 
 >> period. >> >> ##  > F >Please pardon my ignorance, but how is ESS different from BCS? Aren'tF >business critical systems part of enterprises? Don't enterprises needH >BCS? Isn't there considerable overlap at least? OK. I guess ESS doesn'tB >include software. But doesn't "systems" (as in BCS) comprise bothG >hardware and software? It would seem so since HP Integrity servers and F >HP-UX are "within BCS", but why aren't Integrity servers part of ESS? >... You get the idea.    J BCS is part of ESS.  ISS is another part of ESS.  Storage is another part.  J Integrity servers are within BCS, as are OpenVMS, HP-UX, AlphaServers, andH various other stuff.  AlphaServers includes the remaining Alpha hardware business, and Tru64 Unix.   I VMS used to be part of AlphaServers, but it was moved directly into BCS a  while after the HP merger.  A HP-UX is a BIG portion of BCS, which is why it is often mentioned G explicitly in financial reports.  They don't report the level of detail D where VMS numbers would be significant, which is probably why VMS is# rarely mentioned in the financials.   F The Integrity server business is still small compared to HP-UX, but itF gets public mention because it is "new" and is expected to show strongH growth.  Integrity is supposed to become a much bigger proportion of the% BCS business over the next few years.   ? In rough terms, HP-UX is the most important part of current BCS E financials, and Integrity is the most important part of the future of E BCS.  So these two businesses pretty much hove to be discussed in any  report about BCS.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:55:29 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? , Message-ID: <430A1187.7DEC071E@teksavvy.com>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:H > The article on the Inquirer is pure rumor please ignore it, it is justF > wasting everyone's time.  I promise if I hear anything I will let my > distribution lists know.      F In fairness Sue, you will probably not hear any officiall announcement& before we do. Remember June 25 2001 ?   = Terry Shannon managed to get the scoop just a few days early.   C Right now, the speculation about IA64's retirement is just based on F context/circumstances.  HP isn't ready to make a formal annnouncement,C nor should it. It made a big mistake of pre-annoucing the murder of H Alpha years before IA64 was able to come close to Alpha. So HP must waitF for the 64 bit 8086 to mature and gain system interfaces that allow itG to scale to enterprise systems before it can make a formal announcement   or replacing IA64 with the 8086.  : The writing may be on the wall, but it isn't official yet.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:59:16 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? , Message-ID: <430A126A.344606B0@teksavvy.com>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > ) > where there is smoke there is fire ...      B Yes bob. and we may smell the smoke from afar. But the role of the0 newpaper is to point to the actual fire (facts).  F I would be quite surprised if HP announced retirement of IA64 prior toE 2007.  What might change this is if credible news of porting VMS, NSK H and HP-UX to the 8086 come out. HP may then have to admit that IA64 is aC costly dud, and that to have its enterprise systems run on industry E standard commodity chips (the original promise) means that they would  run on the 8086.  , > customers cannot ignore this because we do/ > not want to have to port back to alpha or x86   > just after porting to itanium!  H Which is why so many are sticking to Pa-Risc and Alpha and not moving to that IA64 thing.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:01:12 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? 3 Message-ID: <YhpOe.10734$ga7.6950@news.cpqcorp.net>   & <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message< news:1124727101.955899.54860@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com.../ > where there is smoke there is fire ... we the , > customers cannot ignore this because we do/ > not want to have to port back to alpha or x86   > just after porting to itanium! >   @ There is no smoke, nor is there a fire.  What we apparently have1 is a very slow August, and a very lazy columnist.    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 11:58:50 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com 3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? C Message-ID: <1124737130.816465.228610@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E Well, in that case we have had folks saying we were dead for the last C 20 years, that is some slow burning fire.  We are still here, still G working, still coding, still working with our customers, still selling. C  Obviously we are not allowed to give out numbers but we had a good F quarter too. 8.2-1 is coming out, if you are on email distribution youF are getting regular updates on what is going on.  If you are coming toF the boot camps you are probably getting more information than you wantA about VMS.  We are on Alpha and on Integrity and still on VAX and  emulators.  Not dead yet.    sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:24:41 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? , Message-ID: <430A3488.EDB9A750@teksavvy.com>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote: > G > Well, in that case we have had folks saying we were dead for the last , > 20 years, that is some slow burning fire.   F Eventually the slow burning fire does kill the roots. Sue, VMS used toC be from desktop to datacentre. Is is now just some niche datacentre : applications. Nowhere near as widespread as it used to be.     > We are still here, stillI > working, still coding, still working with our customers, still selling.   E Where's the advertising ?  VMS may still be orderable, but I wouldn't H say that HP is activelly selling/pitching VMS to potential customers. It: is waiting for people to knock on the door to ask for VMS.    4 >  Obviously we are not allowed to give out numbers   D That is another issue. All other HP products are allowed to give outH numbers, some even brag about them in press releases. But for VMS, it isE always nebulous, and there is always an "we're not allowed to" excuse  for not marketing VMS.    C > about VMS.  We are on Alpha and on Integrity and still on VAX and  > emulators.  Not dead yet.   F Still on VAX ? Is VAX back into the roadmap ? Is VAX getting a new VMSD version, is VAX getting new version of TCPIP Services ?  Seems to meF that VAX is now "mature" in practice but that HP doesn't have the guts to put it on paper.   F Does HP still own the VAX and VMS trademarks ? If not, then you shouldF always end yor messages with "VAX and VMS are registered trademarks by <whoeever owns them now>.     G Microsoft changes its OS name often, but do you think for a millisecond B that it would allow "Windows NT" or "DOS" trademarks to expire andF become available to anyone ????  That is what Compaq/HP have done with& the stuff they inherited from Digital.      F Sue, I realise you may not like the tone of the above. And if you everG meet me in person, you can slap me with a foam bat all you want. But it F does show you that there are 2 sides to a coin. You may get to see theD shiny side, but many see the other side which isn't so shiny, and weA feel it is important that you also get to see that point of view.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:15:53 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? * Message-ID: <t8sOe.6536$137.4537@trnddc08>   JF Mezei wrote: $ > susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote: > G >>Well, in that case we have had folks saying we were dead for the last , >>20 years, that is some slow burning fire.  >  > H > Eventually the slow burning fire does kill the roots. Sue, VMS used toE > be from desktop to datacentre. Is is now just some niche datacentre < > applications. Nowhere near as widespread as it used to be. >  >  >  >>We are still here, stillI >>working, still coding, still working with our customers, still selling.  >  > G > Where's the advertising ?  VMS may still be orderable, but I wouldn't J > say that HP is activelly selling/pitching VMS to potential customers. It< > is waiting for people to knock on the door to ask for VMS. >  >  > 4 >> Obviously we are not allowed to give out numbers  >  > F > That is another issue. All other HP products are allowed to give outJ > numbers, some even brag about them in press releases. But for VMS, it isG > always nebulous, and there is always an "we're not allowed to" excuse  > for not marketing VMS. >  >  > C >>about VMS.  We are on Alpha and on Integrity and still on VAX and  >>emulators.  Not dead yet.  >  > H > Still on VAX ? Is VAX back into the roadmap ? Is VAX getting a new VMSF > version, is VAX getting new version of TCPIP Services ?  Seems to meH > that VAX is now "mature" in practice but that HP doesn't have the guts > to put it on paper.  > H > Does HP still own the VAX and VMS trademarks ? If not, then you shouldH > always end yor messages with "VAX and VMS are registered trademarks by > <whoeever owns them now>.  >  > I > Microsoft changes its OS name often, but do you think for a millisecond D > that it would allow "Windows NT" or "DOS" trademarks to expire andH > become available to anyone ????  That is what Compaq/HP have done with( > the stuff they inherited from Digital. >   H Microsoft *CAN'T* own "DOS".  There were IBM and DEC DOSes (and probably& others) long before Microsoft existed.   >  > H > Sue, I realise you may not like the tone of the above. And if you everI > meet me in person, you can slap me with a foam bat all you want. But it H > does show you that there are 2 sides to a coin. You may get to see theF > shiny side, but many see the other side which isn't so shiny, and weC > feel it is important that you also get to see that point of view.      --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 15:41:30 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com 3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? C Message-ID: <1124750490.636516.289320@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   7 how much does HP make from emulators?   Emulators exist ; because customers are basically told to go jump in the lake  by the vendor ...    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 16:09:15 -0700! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com 3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? C Message-ID: <1124752155.776406.264550@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   C Actually the only thing that I will respond to is the comment about B Terry.  Everything else has been flogged to death a thousand timesG before in this newsgroup and I will not go there again. Ever again if I B have a choice.  And I am bound by my employment commitment to onlyG communicate publically what my mangment gives me the ok to do so.  That - said I have very customer commited managment.   F Yes Terry did get the information early, and where do you think he got> it from?  There was a consultant briefing done. And there were. customers that were also told under NDA early.  D Folks you can think that the Inquirer has real news and if you thinkF that Elvis is still alive thats up to you.  I can only tell you what IC know to be true from my perspective, and what we are marching to in / engineering its up to you what you do with it.   sue    Sue    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 16:36:35 -0700 From: perfnerd@yahoo.com3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? C Message-ID: <1124753795.383111.109190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:E > Actually the only thing that I will respond to is the comment about D > Terry.  Everything else has been flogged to death a thousand timesI > before in this newsgroup and I will not go there again. Ever again if I D > have a choice.  And I am bound by my employment commitment to onlyI > communicate publically what my mangment gives me the ok to do so.  That / > said I have very customer commited managment.     @ There is some 'official' information you could report.  From the5 transcript of the quarterly earnings conference call: K http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/investor/financials/quarters/2005/q3transcript.pdf    On page 5, Mark Hurd: E "... Revenue in business-critical systems grew 7% year-over-year with E HP-UX revenue up 8% and continued strength in Integrity where revenue - more than doubled over the prior year period.   D Integrity now represents 24% of business critical server revenue and< during the quarter we crossed the 5,000 mark in terms of ISPE application support, well ahead of our earlier expectation of 4500 by  the end of the calendar year."  E While it doesn't speak specifically about VMS, it does say that HP is / seeing increased acceptance and use of Itanium.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:31:11 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? , Message-ID: <430A6E3D.C8182A9D@teksavvy.com>  " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:F > Folks you can think that the Inquirer has real news and if you think- > that Elvis is still alive thats up to you.      G The problem with the inquirer is that every now and then, is has a real ? story. So any stories they publish is worth investigating. This E particular one was clearly just an opinion. And it was obvious it was  just an opinion.    F But it does show that the opinion is held by more than one guy, and it$ is credible enough to get published.  G If IA64 had a sure future, people wouldn't be speculating about when it  would be replaced by the 8086.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 18:23:18 -0700* From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? B Message-ID: <1124760198.713640.72120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  G HP gets a one-time $2,000 to transfer existing licenses to the emulated  system.   D That doesn't count the HP server sale -- most customers go Proliant.  H Or the companies that can continue their VAX support contract with HP...   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 18:35:07 -0700* From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? B Message-ID: <1124760907.613123.62290@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  I > With all the supported Charon-VAX sales taking place maybe there really % is a market for enhanced VAX support.   F Perhaps.  In my experience as a CHARON-VAX reseller, "large" ("really,F really important") systems have VAX support, and it is continued after
 migration.  B Probably 75% of my sales are for little MicroVAX 3100 systems in aG broom closet.  They don't typically have HP support.  Heck, most of the F owners don't know that anyone owns VMS anymore.  Basically, the system4 works and just needs to run for another 10-20 years.  G That being said, I have sold some copies of CHARON-VAX that are for NEW ? systems, with brand-new HP licenses.  I've also sold new TCP/IP C licenses for systems that only had DECnet.  So, there are *new* VAX  opportunities out there.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:33:00 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> 3 Subject: RE: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB6B20B6@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: perfnerd@yahoo.com [mailto:perfnerd@yahoo.com]=20  > Sent: August 22, 2005 7:37 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 5 > Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha?  >=20 >=20$ > susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:G > > Actually the only thing that I will respond to is the comment about F > > Terry.  Everything else has been flogged to death a thousand times> > > before in this newsgroup and I will not go there again.=20 > Ever again if I F > > have a choice.  And I am bound by my employment commitment to onlyA > > communicate publically what my mangment gives me the ok to=20  > do so.  That1 > > said I have very customer commited managment.  >=20 >=20B > There is some 'official' information you could report.  From the7 > transcript of the quarterly earnings conference call: @ > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/investor/financials/quarters/2005/q3t > ranscript.pdf  >=20 > On page 5, Mark Hurd: G > "... Revenue in business-critical systems grew 7% year-over-year with G > HP-UX revenue up 8% and continued strength in Integrity where revenue / > more than doubled over the prior year period.  >=20F > Integrity now represents 24% of business critical server revenue and> > during the quarter we crossed the 5,000 mark in terms of ISPG > application support, well ahead of our earlier expectation of 4500 by   > the end of the calendar year." >=20G > While it doesn't speak specifically about VMS, it does say that HP is 1 > seeing increased acceptance and use of Itanium.  >=20 >=20  B And ISV's are obviously not porting their OpenVMS app's to ItaniumB because they think it is cool .. They have done their homework.=20  @ Perhaps a virus free, ultra high secure solution with multi-siteA active-active clustering up to 800km apart does have an appeal to 
 Customers?    
 Reference:< http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/i64partner_A.html   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:59:05 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? 0 Message-ID: <11gl7gtt2lr7r75@corp.supernews.com>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote:+ > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25573  >    boob,     Anybody with half a brain knows:  , Current Alpha could be produced indefinitely  G Anybody that had anything to do with future Alphas is long gone from HP   I The Inquirer sometimes explores the edges.  Fine.  As long as the reader  F recognizes that they may be doing just that, exploring the edges, and  beyond.   E Sometimes I think the Inquirer caters to wishful thinking.  Reviving  E Alpha at this time is just that, wishful thinking.  If anyone was to  H make an effort of that magnatude, something newer and better would be a H more realistic goal.  Face it, Alpha is truly dead.  You don't like it. %   I don't like it.  But it's reality.   F Keep up with such postings, and we'll be talking about much less than 
 half a brain.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:08:52 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 3 Subject: Re: HP to dump itanium - bring back alpha? 0 Message-ID: <11gl8374vplre43@corp.supernews.com>   Stanley F. Quayle wrote:I > HP gets a one-time $2,000 to transfer existing licenses to the emulated 	 > system.   G Ok, nobody has to agree with me, and it appears that HP really doesn't  E agree with me, but that's gouging.  I can buy a new Microsoft OS for  C several hundred dollars.  Why $2000 to transfer a product that was  @ already paid for once?  Only one valid answer, HP doesn't value I customer's past actions.  HP only cares about what they can get now, and  @ if the customer has no other options, then HP gets all they can.  F > That doesn't count the HP server sale -- most customers go Proliant.  0 A good reason to transfer the licenses for free.  J > Or the companies that can continue their VAX support contract with HP...  F Another good reason to transfer the already paid for license for free.  ' Both of the above could be conditional.   F Screw the customer enough times, and when they're doing something new 4 and have options, you won't be one of those options.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 22 Aug 2005 18:11:34 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. , Message-ID: <3muiqmF1880lcU1@individual.net>  * In article <430A13AB.23340F@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:I >> The subject is correct.  I was writting a C Program to handle cleaning I >> up the incoming COBOL source files and something the documentation for  >> C says was wrong. >  > OK, that clears things up. > J > I recall somewhere, perhaps a bad dream, some logicals that could defineH > defaulst for the C run time file IO. Perhaps SAMBA defines/SYSTEM suchG > logicals which cause your simple C program to use strange file format . > defaults instead of the expected behaviour ?  G ANd people don't see this as a serious problem?  Installing one program H can completely change the behavior of other totally unrelated programs??3 I can just imagine a user trying to debug that one.    > % > does SHOW LOG DECC* show anything ?    Nothing:   %SHOW-S-NOTRAN   > G >> No, they are coming over as Stream but for whatever reason the COBOL 8 >> Compiler didn't like recordds terminated with an LF.  > E > Ok, this is why we asked for DIR/FULL and a DUMP of a block or two.  > G > It is quite possible that the RIGHT SET FILE/ATTRIB command would fix F > this all in one shot without requiring you write a program, and moreA > importantly, would be done in-situ without creating a new file.   A And you seriously think I could ask a bunch of undergrads with no A previous exposure to VMS to do this to all their files after they C have moved them over?  I'm trying to get people to want to use VMS, E not make them fall on the floor laughing and then go to the Professor 7 to ask why we don't have a Windows or Unix alternative.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:04:37 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. * Message-ID: <430A13AB.23340F@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:H > The subject is correct.  I was writting a C Program to handle cleaningH > up the incoming COBOL source files and something the documentation for > C says was wrong.    OK, that clears things up.  H I recall somewhere, perhaps a bad dream, some logicals that could defineF defaulst for the C run time file IO. Perhaps SAMBA defines/SYSTEM suchE logicals which cause your simple C program to use strange file format , defaults instead of the expected behaviour ?  # does SHOW LOG DECC* show anything ?   F > No, they are coming over as Stream but for whatever reason the COBOL7 > Compiler didn't like recordds terminated with an LF.    C Ok, this is why we asked for DIR/FULL and a DUMP of a block or two.   E It is quite possible that the RIGHT SET FILE/ATTRIB command would fix D this all in one shot without requiring you write a program, and more? importantly, would be done in-situ without creating a new file.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:31:04 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. , Message-ID: <430A19DC.AF0BB569@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:I > ANd people don't see this as a serious problem?  Installing one program J > can completely change the behavior of other totally unrelated programs??5 > I can just imagine a user trying to debug that one.   E That is why VMS has logical names that affect process, job, group and C system (and now cluster). If an aopplication misbehaves and defines F something /SYSTEM when it doesn't need to, then that is a problem with the application.    A fopen without specific arguments should NOT create rfm=fix files.    you could do the following:   ' pipe show log * | search sys$input rfm    E This might feret out some obscure logical name that may affect your C  program's behaviour.  C > And you seriously think I could ask a bunch of undergrads with no C > previous exposure to VMS to do this to all their files after they  > have moved them over?       F As I said, you could simply create a COBOL symbol to execute a commandG procedure which would fix the file organisation if needed and then call A the cobol compiler. It would be totally transparent to the users.   8 Or better yet, get SAMBA to transfer the files properly.   doing a quick google search:  L http://compnetworking.about.com/od/softwareapplicationstools/l/aa062499b.htm # H Unix and Windows systems implement the end-of-line  (EOL) convention for; ASCII text files differently.  Windows uses a two character C carriage-return/line-feed (CRLF) sequence, whereas Unix uses only a H single  character (the LF). Unlike the Unix mtools package,   Samba doesG not perform EOL conversion during file  transfer. Unix text files (such @ as HTML pages) appear as  one very long single line of text when/ transferred to a   Windows computer with Samba.  #    Another:: http://www.ku.edu/acs/documentation/docs/samba/index.shtml # E These added carriage returns are, however, likely to cause trouble in E situations where the text in your file represents fields of data that A must be carefully formated, such as data exported from an   Excel H spreadsheet (created in a Windows environment) that is to be used with aD program such as SAS or  SPSS on your central computing system systemG account (UNIX).  If you need to move such a file from your   desktop to F your UNIX account, SAMBA is not the method of choice.  Instead, use anA FTP (file transfer  protocol) program such as WS_FTP.  If you are < unfamiliar with WS_FTP, see our How-to documentation   here. #   I So as you see, this isn't just with VMS, Unix to Windows is affected too.   @ And if you had a COBOL compiler on Unix, you would probably also' encounter the same problem as with VMS.    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 13:39:08 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. 3 Message-ID: <QWlAt6jxg+R2@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <3muiqmF1880lcU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: , > In article <430A13AB.23340F@teksavvy.com>,2 > 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  K >> I recall somewhere, perhaps a bad dream, some logicals that could define I >> defaulst for the C run time file IO. Perhaps SAMBA defines/SYSTEM such H >> logicals which cause your simple C program to use strange file format/ >> defaults instead of the expected behaviour ?  > I > ANd people don't see this as a serious problem?  Installing one program J > can completely change the behavior of other totally unrelated programs??  G That is why programs should only define system logicals that start with  their own facility prefix.   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Aug 2005 18:51:10 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. , Message-ID: <3mul4tF191d8hU1@individual.net>  , In article <430A19DC.AF0BB569@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:J >> ANd people don't see this as a serious problem?  Installing one programK >> can completely change the behavior of other totally unrelated programs?? 6 >> I can just imagine a user trying to debug that one. > G > That is why VMS has logical names that affect process, job, group and E > system (and now cluster). If an aopplication misbehaves and defines H > something /SYSTEM when it doesn't need to, then that is a problem with > the application.  F But one application should not be able to drasticly alter the behaviorF of every other program on the system.  Your telling me on VMS this is, in fact, possible.   >  > C > fopen without specific arguments should NOT create rfm=fix files.  >  > you could do the following:  > ) > pipe show log * | search sys$input rfm   > G > This might feret out some obscure logical name that may affect your C  > program's behaviour.  D Yes, but I have a real job and troubleshooting VMS isn't part of it.   > D >> And you seriously think I could ask a bunch of undergrads with noD >> previous exposure to VMS to do this to all their files after they >> have moved them over?   >  > H > As I said, you could simply create a COBOL symbol to execute a commandI > procedure which would fix the file organisation if needed and then call C > the cobol compiler. It would be totally transparent to the users.   E I haven't a clue how to do it and I am not about to try this close to G the beginning of the semester.  I already see this as a disaster in the  making.    > : > Or better yet, get SAMBA to transfer the files properly.  J As I said, before you will convice me that SAMBA should do anything beyondK binary transfer you will need to tell me just how SAMBA is supposed to tell K what the contrents of the file actually are.  And for every example you can K come up with I will show you a case where it won;t work and all it takes is 5 one counter-example to prove it is a really bad idea.    >  > doing a quick google search: > N > http://compnetworking.about.com/od/softwareapplicationstools/l/aa062499b.htm > # J > Unix and Windows systems implement the end-of-line  (EOL) convention for= > ASCII text files differently.  Windows uses a two character E > carriage-return/line-feed (CRLF) sequence, whereas Unix uses only a J > single  character (the LF). Unlike the Unix mtools package,   Samba doesI > not perform EOL conversion during file  transfer. Unix text files (such B > as HTML pages) appear as  one very long single line of text when1 > transferred to a   Windows computer with Samba.  > #  > 
 > Another:< > http://www.ku.edu/acs/documentation/docs/samba/index.shtml > # G > These added carriage returns are, however, likely to cause trouble in G > situations where the text in your file represents fields of data that C > must be carefully formated, such as data exported from an   Excel J > spreadsheet (created in a Windows environment) that is to be used with aF > program such as SAS or  SPSS on your central computing system systemI > account (UNIX).  If you need to move such a file from your   desktop to H > your UNIX account, SAMBA is not the method of choice.  Instead, use anC > FTP (file transfer  protocol) program such as WS_FTP.  If you are > > unfamiliar with WS_FTP, see our How-to documentation   here. > #  > K > So as you see, this isn't just with VMS, Unix to Windows is affected too.   F So what?  I knew that.  Been dealing with this sa long as NFS has beenF around.  DOS2UNIX and UNIX2DOS used to be common commands.  Why do youF think I was able to write Unix versions in a matter of minutes.  It isD only VMS that makes you jump through hoops to get such a simple task. done.  Tell me again why this is a good thing?   > B > And if you had a COBOL compiler on Unix, you would probably also) > encounter the same problem as with VMS.   A And the utility to handle the conversion would have taken about 5 A minutes to write.  I could easily have the students convert their ? file before moving it to VMS bu tthen that would involve having A them logged iknto the Unix system and running Unix commands.  The A purpose of this whole exercise is to get the students to use VMS. C If they have to do things on Unix in order to use VMS their obvious % argument will be why bother with VMS.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 22 Aug 2005 18:56:45 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. , Message-ID: <3mulfdF191d8hU2@individual.net>  , In article <430A19DC.AF0BB569@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > C > fopen without specific arguments should NOT create rfm=fix files.  >  > you could do the following:  > ) > pipe show log * | search sys$input rfm      ( $ pipe show log * | search sys$input rfm   "ERRFMT$_SEND_MAIL" = "TRUE"   "ERRFMT$_SEND_TO" = "SYSTEM"  ( > pipe show log * | search sys$input rfm   And you think Unix is arcane!!   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:16:01 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. , Message-ID: <430A3281.2887A527@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:H > But one application should not be able to drasticly alter the behaviorH > of every other program on the system.  Your telling me on VMS this is, > in fact, possible.  > Given privileges, yes. And I assume that SAMBA is given enoughD privileges to do this since it simulate devices that get mounted etcH etc. It would be poor design if the SAMBA folks who ported it to VMS didG it. Or it could also be some other application  on the system that does F this. It shouldn't be done. And I am not saying that it has been done," just giving you possible scenario.    J > > As I said, you could simply create a COBOL symbol to execute a command  G > I haven't a clue how to do it and I am not about to try this close to I > the beginning of the semester.  I already see this as a disaster in the 	 > making.   G Which is why I have asked for DIR/FULL as well as DUMP/BLOCK=COUNT=2 of @ a sample file. With that, we would be able to give you the exactD commands needed to make the file usable on VMS. Without this, we can only give you various ideas.    F > only VMS that makes you jump through hoops to get such a simple task0 > done.  Tell me again why this is a good thing?  G If the answer to your problem is a simple set file /attrib command, you # call than "jumping through hoops" ?   E We just need to know *exactly* what you are starting with in terms of  file format.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:30:41 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> 1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. * Message-ID: <PBqOe.7950$ih4.7673@fe02.lga>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:G >>That is why VMS has logical names that affect process, job, group and E >>system (and now cluster). If an aopplication misbehaves and defines H >>something /SYSTEM when it doesn't need to, then that is a problem with >>the application.  H > But one application should not be able to drasticly alter the behaviorH > of every other program on the system.  Your telling me on VMS this is, > in fact, possible.  H Of course it's possible. It's a necesary consequence of mechansims that & facilitate interprocess communication.  7 You _WANT_ one process to be able to influence another.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:36:12 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. , Message-ID: <430A4545.626CCA44@teksavvy.com>  ' oops, had posted it under wrong subject   6 OK, you asked about how to redefine the cobol command:   in SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGIN.COM:   # $COB*OL :== "@dev:[dir]mycobol.com"   E If you wish to restrict this to only students, and students will have A accounts created in a certain group, you could have code such as:   G $IF F$GETJPI("","GRP") .eq. 200 then COB*OL :== "@dev:[dir]mycobol.com"   : For other users, the cobol command would not be redefined.       and in mycobol.com:    $! commands to fix the file  $ SET FILE 'p1/attr=xxxxxx' $COBOLX 'p1 'p2 'p3 'p4 'p5 'p6 'p7 'p8  $!  G by using "COBOLX", it mypasses the symbol substitution and instead goes 3 thorugh the DCLTABLES to execude the COBOL command.     A Note that the above assumes a command would always be entered as:   * COBOL mypgm.cob /anyoption /option /option   (eg: filename first.)   C One could modify the command procedure to use f$search to test each Q parameter to see if it is a file and use the SET FILE commands on that paremeter.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:17:32 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. , Message-ID: <430A40E6.C3855BCD@teksavvy.com>    re: fopen creating rfm=fix files  6 I found the follwing via google, dated from last year:  C  Something that also can surprise RMS programmers, when using the C  creat >   > function is that by default, the new file inherits certain attributes from @   > the existing version of the file unless those attributes are
 specified in  <   > the creat call. The following attributes are inherited: $   >   a.. Record format (fab$b_rfm) *   >   b.. Maximum record size (fab$w_mrs) '   >   c.. Carriage control (fab$b_rat)     >   d.. File protection .   > So it does not look like it applies here.      > Met vriendelijke groetjes,  
   > Hein.   # NOTE: fopen() behaves like creat().     E So if your utility is trying to overwrite a "binary" file of the same H name with a newer version, you would have to specify the file attributesH in the fopen call of your utility to override those of the existing file you wish to replace.   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Aug 2005 23:16:48 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. , Message-ID: <3mv4n0F18lhb3U1@individual.net>  * In article <CUsOe.6548$137.1578@trnddc08>,# 	John Santos <john@egh.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:/ >> In article <430A19DC.AF0BB569@teksavvy.com>, 3 >> 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  >>   >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>> K >>>>ANd people don't see this as a serious problem?  Installing one program L >>>>can completely change the behavior of other totally unrelated programs??7 >>>>I can just imagine a user trying to debug that one.  >>> H >>>That is why VMS has logical names that affect process, job, group andF >>>system (and now cluster). If an aopplication misbehaves and definesI >>>something /SYSTEM when it doesn't need to, then that is a problem with  >>>the application.  >>   >>  I >> But one application should not be able to drasticly alter the behavior I >> of every other program on the system.  Your telling me on VMS this is,  >> in fact, possible.  > G > This is all f***ing B***S***.  JF was speculating on a method whereby D > SAMBA *might* affect the behavior of the C compiler (by defining aD > system-wide logical that C looks at.)  Since it turned out that noI > such logicals are defined, this couldn't be the cause of the C problem. F > SAMBA is not the direct cause of the behavior you are seeing, and toB > condemn VMS for a non-existent problem is stupid and pejorative.  ? I don't condemn anything and I'm not the one who suggested such @ nehavior might exist.  If it does, then I see that as a problem.C If it doesn't, all the better.  But I was not the one who suggested " it might exist in the first place.   > E > Someone else mentioned the possibility that C is creating new files E > with the same format as existing files if a file with the same name F > (but lower version number) already exists.  This I think is the mostF > likely explanation, and if so points to a documentation error in the- > C documentation, and not necessarily a bug.   > And you would be wrong.  The file involved is a temporary fileA specifically picked so that there is no possibility of a collison A with an already existing file.  I do know about VMS's versioning. < I may not be an expert, but I have used VMS for a long time.   > C > But this has nothing to do with solving your fundamental problem, E > which is not why doesn't C behave as you expect, but how to get the A > COBOL source files onto your VAX in a format that the VAX COBOL  > compiler can cope with.   0 As I said, I have, in fact, solved that problem.   > E > Most likely a "$ SET FILE/ATTR=" command will do the trick.  JF has G > posted a method to redefine the "COBOL" command to point to a command E > file that does the necessary stuff before invoking the compiler.  I D > haven't looked at it in detail to see if it checks the file formatF > before resetting the attributes, or if it passes compiler qualifiersC > on to the compiler, or if it handles multiple input files.  (Does I > COBOL accept multiple input files?  Does it do "includes", or something D > similar, so that there may be more than one source file that needs
 > fixing up?)  > E > It may also be that there are default attributes that SAMBA can put E > on files that will cure the problem (at least for files copied from D > Windows vs. files copied form Unix.)  STREAM_LF is appropriate forB > Unix files, but I think STREAM or STREAM_CR might be correct for
 > Windows. > < > But this is all speculation.  Please post the DIR/FULL and? > DUMP/BLOCK=COUNT=1 of a typical problem file that people have  > repeatedly requested.  >   G The problem is solved.  My original method works.  And it is acceptable C to the Professor teaching the class because it so closely resembles D what he remembers having to do back in the early days of DOS when we% were a Sun shop and ran lot's of NFS.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:07:14 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. * Message-ID: <CUsOe.6548$137.1578@trnddc08>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:. > In article <430A19DC.AF0BB569@teksavvy.com>,2 > 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>J >>>ANd people don't see this as a serious problem?  Installing one programK >>>can completely change the behavior of other totally unrelated programs?? 6 >>>I can just imagine a user trying to debug that one. >>G >>That is why VMS has logical names that affect process, job, group and E >>system (and now cluster). If an aopplication misbehaves and defines H >>something /SYSTEM when it doesn't need to, then that is a problem with >>the application. >  > H > But one application should not be able to drasticly alter the behaviorH > of every other program on the system.  Your telling me on VMS this is, > in fact, possible.  E This is all f***ing B***S***.  JF was speculating on a method whereby B SAMBA *might* affect the behavior of the C compiler (by defining aB system-wide logical that C looks at.)  Since it turned out that noG such logicals are defined, this couldn't be the cause of the C problem. D SAMBA is not the direct cause of the behavior you are seeing, and to@ condemn VMS for a non-existent problem is stupid and pejorative.  C Someone else mentioned the possibility that C is creating new files C with the same format as existing files if a file with the same name D (but lower version number) already exists.  This I think is the mostD likely explanation, and if so points to a documentation error in the+ C documentation, and not necessarily a bug.   A But this has nothing to do with solving your fundamental problem, C which is not why doesn't C behave as you expect, but how to get the ? COBOL source files onto your VAX in a format that the VAX COBOL  compiler can cope with.   C Most likely a "$ SET FILE/ATTR=" command will do the trick.  JF has E posted a method to redefine the "COBOL" command to point to a command C file that does the necessary stuff before invoking the compiler.  I B haven't looked at it in detail to see if it checks the file formatD before resetting the attributes, or if it passes compiler qualifiersA on to the compiler, or if it handles multiple input files.  (Does G COBOL accept multiple input files?  Does it do "includes", or something B similar, so that there may be more than one source file that needs fixing up?)   C It may also be that there are default attributes that SAMBA can put C on files that will cure the problem (at least for files copied from B Windows vs. files copied form Unix.)  STREAM_LF is appropriate for@ Unix files, but I think STREAM or STREAM_CR might be correct for Windows.  : But this is all speculation.  Please post the DIR/FULL and= DUMP/BLOCK=COUNT=1 of a typical problem file that people have  repeatedly requested.                --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:27:48 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. 6 Message-ID: <00A48ABE.E5ABE83A@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  W In article <3muiqmF1880lcU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: + >In article <430A13AB.23340F@teksavvy.com>, 1 >	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: J >>> The subject is correct.  I was writting a C Program to handle cleaningJ >>> up the incoming COBOL source files and something the documentation for >>> C says was wrong.  >>   >> OK, that clears things up.  >>  K >> I recall somewhere, perhaps a bad dream, some logicals that could define I >> defaulst for the C run time file IO. Perhaps SAMBA defines/SYSTEM such H >> logicals which cause your simple C program to use strange file format/ >> defaults instead of the expected behaviour ?  > H >ANd people don't see this as a serious problem?  Installing one programI >can completely change the behavior of other totally unrelated programs?? 4 >I can just imagine a user trying to debug that one. >  >>  & >> does SHOW LOG DECC* show anything ? > 	 >Nothing:  >  >%SHOW-S-NOTRAN  >  >>  H >>> No, they are coming over as Stream but for whatever reason the COBOL9 >>> Compiler didn't like recordds terminated with an LF.   >>  F >> Ok, this is why we asked for DIR/FULL and a DUMP of a block or two. >>  H >> It is quite possible that the RIGHT SET FILE/ATTRIB command would fixG >> this all in one shot without requiring you write a program, and more B >> importantly, would be done in-situ without creating a new file. > B >And you seriously think I could ask a bunch of undergrads with noB >previous exposure to VMS to do this to all their files after theyD >have moved them over?  I'm trying to get people to want to use VMS,F >not make them fall on the floor laughing and then go to the Professor8 >to ask why we don't have a Windows or Unix alternative.  I I think the idea is that you'd have a globally-readable command procedure L with a symbol defined so they'd just type it like a command after uploading;  3 $ UNIX2VMS :== @sys$sysdevice:[scripts]unix2vms.com   L and unix2vms.com could loop through everything in your current directory and run set file/attrib on it.  K People are suggesting things like running convert, etc, as things that keep I you from having to write a C program to do the conversion, since you can  J just write DCL to invoke those utilities; they're not suggesting that eachH of your users learn anything more than they'd have to learn to run your  little unix2vms program.   -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:07:28 -0400 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> 1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. 1 Message-ID: <as-dnR8NnI5f9ZfeRVn-2g@adelphia.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >   @ > Given privileges, yes. And I assume that SAMBA is given enoughF > privileges to do this since it simulate devices that get mounted etc > etc.  8 SAMBA on VMS and most platforms does not do any of that.  E LINUX is the only platform that SAMBA can currently simulate devices  H that get mounted because that is the only one that the operating system  was modified to support it.   = Samba's use of privileges is primarily limited to the server  A impersonating the VMS user that is mapped to the username of the   connecting client system.   I None of the VMS ports of SAMBA set any DECC feature logicals while it is  ' running or in any of the setup scripts.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:36:29 -0400 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> 1 Subject: Re: Next project, C programming problem. 1 Message-ID: <R5Sdneuh4KoS8pfeRVn-rQ@adelphia.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:. > In article <430A19DC.AF0BB569@teksavvy.com>,2 > 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>J >>>ANd people don't see this as a serious problem?  Installing one programK >>>can completely change the behavior of other totally unrelated programs?? 6 >>>I can just imagine a user trying to debug that one.  @ And all this speculation about something that SAMBA does not do.  H > But one application should not be able to drasticly alter the behaviorH > of every other program on the system.  Your telling me on VMS this is, > in fact, possible.  F Yes, a privileged application can set SYSTEM logical names that break H everything else.  The CRTL has features that are controlled by a lot of 	 features.   D In the case of SAMBA, none of the ports to VMS use the DECC feature 2 logicals or affect the behavior of other programs.   > : >>Or better yet, get SAMBA to transfer the files properly. >  > L > As I said, before you will convice me that SAMBA should do anything beyondM > binary transfer you will need to tell me just how SAMBA is supposed to tell M > what the contrents of the file actually are.  And for every example you can M > come up with I will show you a case where it won;t work and all it takes is 7 > one counter-example to prove it is a really bad idea.   I At the binary level, there is no difference between a STREAM-LF file and    a fixed record side binary file.  I Some versions of SAMBA on VMS open the file to be transfered in a binary  G context and then adjust the file attributes and trim the size when the   file is closed.   H In SAMBA 2.2.x it is configurable at run time as to if the files should / show up as STREAM or STREAM_LF on the VMS side.   J It apparently does this by spawning a DCL command when the file is closed.  A If the server runs out of resources, then the file format is not  4 changed, and apparently not even an error is logged.   >>doing a quick google search: >>N >>http://compnetworking.about.com/od/softwareapplicationstools/l/aa062499b.htm >># J >>Unix and Windows systems implement the end-of-line  (EOL) convention for= >>ASCII text files differently.  Windows uses a two character E >>carriage-return/line-feed (CRLF) sequence, whereas Unix uses only a J >>single  character (the LF). Unlike the Unix mtools package,   Samba doesI >>not perform EOL conversion during file  transfer. Unix text files (such B >>as HTML pages) appear as  one very long single line of text when1 >>transferred to a   Windows computer with Samba.  >>#   G That refers to the SAMBA on UNIX behavior only.  SAMBA on VMS has some  D extra stuff in it to handle VMS text files and convert them to UNIX.  E I have not looked very carefully at this port of SAMBA for VMS, as I  % have been involved in other projects.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:49:26 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: RAM0 Message-ID: <11gl6ukqjt54g02@corp.supernews.com>   Reinhard Eigner wrote:9 > "Arne Vajhj" <arne@vajhoej.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag  8 > news:430a0b78$0$85749$edfadb0f@dread16.news.tele.dk... >  >>Reinhard Eigner wrote: >>3 >>>"Jim" <none@example.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag  B >>>news:ra-dnZ2dnZ3PhrrhnZ2dnTmpmN6dnZ2dRVn-0J2dnZ0@comcast.com... >>> 3 >>>>"Reinhard Eigner" <antispam@garnix.de> wrote in + >>>>news:de2p8o$4qo$01$1@news.t-online.com:  >>>>D >>>>>The AS1000A needs the good old 72pin PS/2 SIMMs (of course with
 >>>>>Parity).  >> >>>>SIMMs, eh? >>P >>>Yes! The memory modules which were in your 80486 or Pentium 1/Pro computer... >>. >>Will 486/Pentium SIMM's work in an AS1000A ? >> >  > E > Well, if you have fast page memory (FPM) SIMMs with parity (36bit).  > AFAIK EDO SIMMs don't work.  >  >    Correct, on both counts.  G Speed may be an issue.  For example, an AlphaStation 200 4/233 used 70  H nanosecond memory.  60 ns seems to work well.  The AlphaServer 1000A is / of similar vintage.  Don't get too fast for it.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2005 19:09:52 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) < Subject: Re: Rumor Mill:  OpenVMS moving from Itanic to x86?3 Message-ID: <qNHUS2X8x$fN@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <96BA6B167wspenceraporg@216.168.3.30>, wspencer@ap.dontspamme.org (Warren Spencer) writes: I > A fertile source of OpenVMS *rumors* - The Inq' - speculates HP may be  < > dumping Itanic:  http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25573 >   4 	Yeah... just as Ed Wilts pointed out the other day:   Charlie writes:   ) http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=20242   ! Wednesday 15 December 2004, 16:18    Storage O Then came storage. Read these articles if you are not familiar with the storage J story so far. 1, 2 and 3. The nub is HP was canning their internal storageK arrays, the EVA line. If you ask HP, it will deny it all, but the engineers L have disappeared, so it is pretty hard to see how it is going to do anything new.   And yet:  B http://h18006.www1.hp.com/products/storageworks/eva8000/index.html9 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2005/050516b.html    LAS VEGAS, May 16, 2005 P --------------------------------------------------------------------------------        N In the most significant expansion of its storage portfolio in company history,L HP today unveiled numerous new products and services that address customers'M most pressing storage challenges and extend the company's share of the global C storage market, estimated at more than $63 billion according to IDC     E HP StorageWorks 4000, 6000 and 8000 Enterprise Virtual Arrays - major N enhancement and expansion of EVA family maintains industry's lowest disk array total cost of ownership;   ---   5 	But re-read what Charlie wrote. A given that EVA was 3 	doomed. Any kind of take back? I've yet to see (as  	Ed pointed out) a correction.  @ 	Agenda driven reporting my friends.... agenda driven reporting.   				Rob   N "Of the whole rabble of thieves, the fools are the worst; they rob you of both+  time and peace of mind."         --Goethe     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:56:46 -0400 $ From: "Hein" <hein.nomail@hp.nomail>' Subject: Re: SET FILE/ATTRIB LRL vs MRS , Message-ID: <430a11e0$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:430A0F39.C25D3E5F@teksavvy.com...
 > Hein wrote:  >> $ cre tmp.tmp( >> aap noot mies teun vuur boom kees zus > G > Ok, there is something about monkeys, fire, trees. But couldn't get a 4 > real translation of this. (I assume it is dutch ?)  J It is from an ancient Dutch learning method : "leesplank" = reading board.M The method probably was more about pronounciation than reading because there  L is no obvious relation between the words and the pictures. There is, but is  is not consistent.  * http://www.stanford.edu/~sipma/prexlp.html   Hein.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:19:50 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>& Subject: Simh. How to triple the speed< Message-ID: <q4tOe.24756$Il.19819@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>  F Anyone running the current distributed VAX simh binaries (3.4-0) with I ethernet support should note that these binaries are compiled with debug  D code and no optimization. The problem is not present in the version G without ethernet support. The upshot of this is that your emulated VAX  H will go nearly three times as fast if you recompile from source and set . the optimization level to -02 in the makefile.  H I've been in touch with Bob Supnik and he is aware of this so hopefully C updated binaries will appear soon on http://simh.trailing-edge.com/   F I can supply a pre-built vax.exe if you trust Windows executables and  can't wait.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:20:18 -0500 " From: bugs@pu.net (Mark Hittinger)* Subject: Re: Simh. How to triple the speed0 Message-ID: <6MCdnRqjELp_GpfeRVn-qg@comcast.com>  * Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:H >                          The upshot of this is that your emulated VAX I >will go nearly three times as fast if you recompile from source and set  / >the optimization level to -02 in the makefile.   M Faster still if you use the Intel compiler and turn on all the optimizations.    Later    Mark Hittinger bugs@pu.net    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.469 ************************