1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 02 Sep 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 489       Contents: Re: crmpsc INVALIDARG  Re: crmpsc INVALIDARG  Re: crmpsc INVALIDARG  CSWB browser troubles...# Re: DCPS generic queue form problem # Re: DCPS generic queue form problem " Freely distributable FMS runtime ?
 Re: Gamers0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code4 Re: Mixed interconnect VAX VMS 6.2 cluster challenge4 Re: Mixed interconnect VAX VMS 6.2 cluster challenge" Re: Pass arguments to a .com file." Re: Pass arguments to a .com file. Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:16:49 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: crmpsc INVALIDARG0 Message-ID: <11hekjt9ivaeie6@corp.supernews.com>   briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: \ > In article <11he6d1falp3o6a@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > 
 >>saee wrote:  >>I >>>My application needs huge amount of memory..Number of files are loaded F >>>with crmpsc. At some point of time I got Virtual memory full error.H >>>I wanted to assure that when any memory is deallocated..same could be& >>>used for others.so I try to 'reuse' >>>  >>J >>No!  Don't try to manage memory.  VMS does that.  You can never be sure K >>what sections of physical, or virtual, memory is available.  You ask VMS  G >>for memory, and it will give you what you ask for, if it's available.  >  > 7 > As Hein has already posted, this is completely false.  >  > G >>The things you should be looking at, as another posted specified, is  K >>pfquota and the size of your pagefile(s), if physical memory is an issue.  >  > D > If your application is leaking VM the proper approach is to REDUCEF > its PGFLQUOTA.  Rather than throwing memory at the problem, you needE > to take it away until somebody fixes the damned thing.  (Of course, ? > in the real world, this approach is not uniformly effective).  >  > 	John Briggs  ; Ok, I'm missing something here.  Same old territory for me.   I Is the OP asking for more memory for the process, or is the OP trying to  1 re-use memory previously assigned to the process.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:09:10 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> Subject: Re: crmpsc INVALIDARG3 Message-ID: <GdJRe.11623$1o.10530@news.cpqcorp.net>   4 "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message* news:11hekjt9ivaeie6@corp.supernews.com...! > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: @ > > In article <11he6d1falp3o6a@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > >  > >>saee wrote:  > >>K > >>>My application needs huge amount of memory..Number of files are loaded H > >>>with crmpsc. At some point of time I got Virtual memory full error.J > >>>I wanted to assure that when any memory is deallocated..same could be( > >>>used for others.so I try to 'reuse' > >>>  > >>K > >>No!  Don't try to manage memory.  VMS does that.  You can never be sure L > >>what sections of physical, or virtual, memory is available.  You ask VMSI > >>for memory, and it will give you what you ask for, if it's available.  > >  > > 9 > > As Hein has already posted, this is completely false.  > >  > > H > >>The things you should be looking at, as another posted specified, isF > >>pfquota and the size of your pagefile(s), if physical memory is an issue. > >  > > F > > If your application is leaking VM the proper approach is to REDUCEH > > its PGFLQUOTA.  Rather than throwing memory at the problem, you needG > > to take it away until somebody fixes the damned thing.  (Of course, A > > in the real world, this approach is not uniformly effective).  > >  > > John Briggs  > = > Ok, I'm missing something here.  Same old territory for me.  > J > Is the OP asking for more memory for the process, or is the OP trying to3 > re-use memory previously assigned to the process.  >   H The OP is trying to successively map/unmap multiple global sections of aF large size in P0 space.  Because many things can cause the creation ofA new VA space, you can end up with fragmented memory such that you D can't map a new section because the free VA space doesn't have a big; enough hole and you've run into the maximum address reange.   F They can either try some custom management of a range of VA space thatH is created early and large enough - or they might want to use P2 space -L which can have it's own set of issues since they will need to teach the code about 64-bit pointers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 23:43:47 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: crmpsc INVALIDARG0 Message-ID: <11hfiajloo46m45@corp.supernews.com>   FredK wrote:6 > "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message, > news:11hekjt9ivaeie6@corp.supernews.com... > ! >>briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:  >>? >>>In article <11he6d1falp3o6a@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble  >  > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >  >>>>saee wrote:  >>>> >>>>K >>>>>My application needs huge amount of memory..Number of files are loaded H >>>>>with crmpsc. At some point of time I got Virtual memory full error.J >>>>>I wanted to assure that when any memory is deallocated..same could be( >>>>>used for others.so I try to 'reuse' >>>>>  >>>>K >>>>No!  Don't try to manage memory.  VMS does that.  You can never be sure L >>>>what sections of physical, or virtual, memory is available.  You ask VMSI >>>>for memory, and it will give you what you ask for, if it's available.  >>>  >>> 8 >>>As Hein has already posted, this is completely false. >>>  >>>  >>> H >>>>The things you should be looking at, as another posted specified, isF >>>>pfquota and the size of your pagefile(s), if physical memory is an >  > issue. >  >>> E >>>If your application is leaking VM the proper approach is to REDUCE G >>>its PGFLQUOTA.  Rather than throwing memory at the problem, you need F >>>to take it away until somebody fixes the damned thing.  (Of course,@ >>>in the real world, this approach is not uniformly effective). >>>  >>>John Briggs >>= >>Ok, I'm missing something here.  Same old territory for me.  >>J >>Is the OP asking for more memory for the process, or is the OP trying to3 >>re-use memory previously assigned to the process.  >> >  > J > The OP is trying to successively map/unmap multiple global sections of aH > large size in P0 space.  Because many things can cause the creation ofC > new VA space, you can end up with fragmented memory such that you F > can't map a new section because the free VA space doesn't have a big= > enough hole and you've run into the maximum address reange.  > H > They can either try some custom management of a range of VA space thatJ > is created early and large enough - or they might want to use P2 space -N > which can have it's own set of issues since they will need to teach the code > about 64-bit pointers. >  >  >   B Ok, I had to go back and read the original post again.  I see the  potential problems.   H He didn't indicate that the third section being mapped was less than or D equal in size to the first section mapped.  If not, and there isn't G enough address space past the end of section #2, then he's out of luck  I (address space).  Or, as you indicated, possibly something else has been  8 given some part of the address space used in section #1.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:41:08 -0400 9 From: Brad Hamilton <brMadAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcaAstP.neSt> ! Subject: CSWB browser troubles... 0 Message-ID: <oNKdnUdDU_oYHoreRVn-pQ@comcast.com>  5 I'm just a hobbyist, but I'm hoping someone can help.    Environment:# VMS V7.3-2 with all current patches # TCPware V5.6-2, all current patches  DWMotif V1.3-1, ECO2 CSWB V1.7-8    I've installed the CSWB images.   B CSWB "hangs" (no I/O after an initial start-up); I've enabled all H logging (that I can see) using the logicals NSPR_LOG_MODULES(FILE), and < the NSPR log spits out the following message, over and over:   "PR_Poll timed out" # "calling PR-Poll [active=0 idle=0]"   = I'm at a loss - has anyone seen this (or know how to fix it)?    --   Bradford J. Hamilton "All opinions are my own" * "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' with @"   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:10:36 GMT * From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>, Subject: Re: DCPS generic queue form problem5 Message-ID: <010920051545351466%paul.anderson@hp.com>   2 In article <1125590194.521352@smirk>, Alan Frisbie( <Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> wrote:  F > I didn't know that I could do that.  Is there an example anywhere (I  > didn't see one in the manual)?  F Put the queue qualifier specifying the form in P5 in DCPS$STARTUP.COM:  B    $  IF .NOT. SETUP_MODE THEN @SYS$STARTUP:DCPS$EXECUTION_QUEUE -          my_dcps_queue -,          [node::]"protocol/printer[:port]" -          DCPS_LIB - 
          "" -           "/FORM=FRISBIE"   Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:32:52 -0400- From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> , Subject: Re: DCPS generic queue form problem7 Message-ID: <8660a3a105090113326c5b8ac4@mail.gmail.com>   ) ------=_Part_10914_15689516.1125606772846 , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Content-Disposition: inline   9 On 9/1/05, William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> wrote:  >=20 >=20 >=208 > On 9/1/05, Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com> wrote: > >=206 > > In article <1125536816.334119@smirk>, Alan Frisbie, > > <Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> wrote: > >=20J > > > The problem is that (as far as I can tell), generic queues cannot=20J > > > have forms associated with them. I can manually enter a PRINT /FORM= =3D E > > > command and it works just fine. However, when printing from the < > > > user's application, there is no way to specify a form. > > >=20> > > > Can someone give me a hint of how to solve this problem? > >=20J > > Besides using Layup, as previously suggested, you could create anotherK > > execution queue, with the desired form as default, pointing to the same  > > printer. > >=20 > > Paul > >=20 > > -- > > Paul Anderson  > > OpenVMS Engineering  > > Hewlett-Packard Company  > >=20 >=20J > I used to have departments using LNO8As with the large capacity input=20, > trays as well as the two regular trays.=20 >=20J > I had *three* execution queues feeding into each printer, and different= =20 J > forms in each of the three trays- plain paper, letterhead and statement= =20  > paper. >=20J > Worked like a dream. However, this was before 1996 so don't ask me to=20: > remember exactly what I did with DCPS to make it happen. >=20 > WWWebb=20  >=20 > --=20 H > NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related=20 > correspondence. H > All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for=20= > services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at=20 ( > http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/=20    K Remembered something else: I had to get used to the fact that if one queue=  =20 J was printing something, the other two would show up as "stalled" until it= =20 	 finished.    WWWebb   --=20 F NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related=20 correspondence. L All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for service= s=202 pursuant to the terms and conditions located at=20# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/   ) ------=_Part_10914_15689516.1125606772846 + Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Content-Disposition: inline   L <br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9/1/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sende=L rname">William Webb</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:william.w.webb@gmail.com">wil=L liam.w.webb@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=L " style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0= 8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> L <div><span class=3D"e" id=3D"q_10612618ea053318_0"><br><br><div><span class=L =3D"gmail_quote">On 9/1/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Paul Anderson</b>=L  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul.anderson@hp.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"r=- eturn top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> L paul.anderson@hp.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=L  style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.= 8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> L In article &lt;1125536816.334119@smirk&gt;, Alan Frisbie<br>&lt;<a href=3D"=L mailto:Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return=L  top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com</a>= &gt; wrote: L <br><br>&gt; The problem is that (as far as I can tell), generic queues can= not L <br>&gt; have forms associated with them.&nbsp;&nbsp;I can manually enter a=L  PRINT /FORM=3D<br>&gt; command and it works just fine.&nbsp;&nbsp;However,=L  when printing from the<br>&gt; user's application, there is no way to spec= ify a form.<br>&gt; L <br>&gt; Can someone give me a hint of how to solve this problem?<br><br>Be=L sides using Layup, as previously suggested, you could create another<br>exe=H cution queue, with the desired form as default, pointing to the same<br>  L printer.<br><br>Paul<br><br>--<br> Paul Anderson<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;OpenVMS Eng=L ineering<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;Hewlett-Packard Company<br></blockquote></div><br><=L /span></div>I used to have departments using LNO8As with the large capacity=.  input trays as well as the two regular trays. <br> <br>G I had *three* execution queues feeding into each printer, and different G forms in each of the three trays- plain paper, letterhead and statement 
 paper.<br> <br>E Worked like a dream.&nbsp; However, this was before 1996 so don't ask H me to remember exactly what I did&nbsp; with DCPS to make it happen.<br> <br>L WWWebb <br clear=3D"all"><span class=3D"sg"><br>-- <br>NOTE: This email add=F ress is only used for noncommerical VMS-related correspondence.<br>All? unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located atJ <a href=3D"http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/" target=3D"_blank" onclick=L =3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://bellsouthpwp.net/w= /e/webbww/</a>  E </span></blockquote></div><br>Remembered something else: I had to get D used to the fact that if one queue was printing something, the other? two would show up as &quot;stalled&quot; until it finished.<br>  <br>L WWWebb<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>NOTE: This email address is only used fo=2 r noncommerical VMS-related correspondence.<br>All? unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located atL <a href=3D"http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/">http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e= /webbww/</a>  + ------=_Part_10914_15689516.1125606772846--    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:29:26 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> + Subject: Freely distributable FMS runtime ? , Message-ID: <4317D51A.E300CB81@teksavvy.com>  G Since FMS has been mature since the early 1990s, how difficult would it D be to convince VMS management to make FMS run time included in VMS ?H They could include a "public" license on the freeware site, and the nextH time FMS is recompiled, have it check for a VMS licence instead of a FMS% run time or development license ?????     C By having FMS run time available to all remaining VMS customers, it F would allow people to generate open source software that relies on FMSE and not have to worry about users having to scrounge for the licence.   > (To those not aware, FMS was available in 2 versions: the fullF (development) version that includes the editor and other utilities (asD well as the run time shareable images), and the FMS Run Time licence2 which includes only the run time shareable image.)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:32:35 -04004 From: "Peter Weaver" <newsgroup@weaverconsulting.ca> Subject: Re: Gamers + Message-ID: <3novq7F2cgfgU1@individual.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote:B >> Games are pretty much tied to the x86 architecture and windows. >  > B > Early on, Alpha had a shot for gamers running NT.  The window ofD > opportunity was squandered (of course). Had there been enough of aE > push, Alpha's speed edge would have gotten it the gaming crowd. But @ > Alpha remained just a wet dream for gamers because the lack ofB > marketing by Digital resulted in their favourite games not being$ > available on their dream platform.  D When my nephew was still in school he knew I that my worked involvedH computers somehow but all he cared about was games. One time he asked meG if I had ever heard about Alpha computers. IIRC he said something along H the lines of "They are so fast, there's going to be great games on them.F If I ever hit a lottery the first thing I'm going to buy is an Alpha."   --   Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.  Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAX  www.weaverconsulting.ca    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:22:29 GMT % From: Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hp.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) 2 Message-ID: <FFHRe.11594$Td.9972@news.cpqcorp.net>  F >> I think the problems at hand would be better solved if the airliftsD >> were used to bring in supplies, so let the busses take folks out.  C What should the planes take with them when the leave the NO area to  get more supplies?  E >> Meanwhile, I don't think there are any large airfields above water  >> in New Orleans.  B I'd heard something about one of the airports being able to handle limited flights at this point.  + > Chinooks don't need large airfields.  :-)   F But can they hold as many or more people than a bus, and can take them all the way to Houston?   
 rick jones --  B No need to believe in either side, or any side. There is no cause.E There's only yourself. The belief is in your own precision.  - Jobert F these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)D feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 14:57:22 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) , Message-ID: <43174F0D.E1446A8D@teksavvy.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:H >    I think the problems at hand would be better solved if the airliftsF >    were used to bring in supplies, so let the busses take folks out.  B More efficient to use airlifts to bring in supplies and leave with  people instead of leaving empty.  G Also, just the superdome people, 23,000 will require some 4600 busloads G to move. Trains and planes are far more effective at evacuating people. G Even ships would be better. You could probably fit 10,000 passengers on J an aircraft carrier and move them over a period of 2 days to another port.  G >    Meanwhile, I don't think there are any large airfields above water  >    in New Orleans.  E The airport re-opened the day after for relief operations. It has one G major runway that is fully usable. American Airlines and Southwest each G brought in planes with water/food yesterday and started to take out the @ passengers that had been left stranded at the airport during theC hurricane (about 300) when they prematurely closed the airport well  before the storm began.   A I am not impressed with the response. FEMA said that 4-5 days was @ acceptable.  The military should have been in there with the bigE artillery within HOURS of the winds dying down, along with amphibious H vehicles capable of moving on dry portions of streets as well as floodedG portions of streets. But the military can't do anything until the mayor A asks the governor to ask the president to allow the military in.    A They had warned that there would be serious flooding.  Stationing B hundreds of trucks outside of the danger zone is neat, but in mostH hurricanes, roads are impassable due to fallen trees, and in the case ofH New Orleans, it was a big bet that at least one bridge/road would remainF opened, and what do you do when half your trucks are positioned on theB wrong side and have to make a huge detour around to get to the one remaining bridge ?  C After the tsunami, the USA used its big artillery from its aircraft D carriers to help the destitute people ASAP until the rest of the aidF organisations could arrive. But for New Orleans, there was a huge void until aid arrives.  F The mayors, governmors and Bush should have agreed to deploy military G BEFORE the hurricane so that the military could be on site within hours  (not days) of the storm.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:11:43 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) , Message-ID: <43175269.2A267544@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:C > You'd still have to get people to and from airfields.  That means F > busses.  Since the distance isn't very far, involving aircraft might > actually slow things down.  G If you bring people to airport in a say 30 minute ride, it means that a F bus can fully turn around in say 90 minutes. Each bus can therefore 16H trips per day, or carry 800 passengers per day. With 10 buses , it takes9 3 days to move people to the airport. 8000 people per day   3 (And you'd need 10 buses at the other end as well).     H Right now, the media have talked of 500 buses, which would take one day,8 but I think that the real term is probabbly "bus loads".   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:17:29 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) + Message-ID: <431753C3.1000558@teksavvy.com>    Bob Koehler wrote:J >    The Bush administration has been critized before for poor performance: >    by FEMA.  I suspect in this case they will be, again.  B FEMA may get the blame because it is easy to point fingers at them without hurting politicians.  F In the end, the decision to deploy the really big guns to help in thisG rests with politicians at city, state and washington levels. Yesterday, E when Bush annoucned he was to make a public annoucement at 17:00, the B speculation was that he would deploy the military to help with theG effort. He didn't.  He has the constitutional authority to "impose" the N military, but the expected behaviour is to wait until the state governor asks.  F So people are suffering because politicians don't want to go over each
 other's head.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:26:58 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) , Message-ID: <431755FB.44E43988@teksavvy.com>   Rick Jones wrote: H > But can they hold as many or more people than a bus, and can take them > all the way to Houston?   C Lack of imagination.  When they have refugee situations, they setup F temporary camps with lots of tents, portable toilets etc etc. The army# is fully equipped to provide this.    C Do you really think that kids now sequestered in the Astrodome will   actually travel to some school ?  F It might be better to have folks in some glorified campground setup byF the army and have the teachers who are in the camp as refugees provide" schooling to the kids in the camp.  B After hurricane Tracy which destroyed Darwin in 1974, there was anF evacuation, with only about 10,000 alowed to remain (based on what wasC left, and the need to rebuild). later studies showed that evacuated B people didn't fare as well as the people who stayed in their city.  D Yes, flooding makes things somewhat different, but not all "flooded"B areas have water to the rooftops. Many areas have only a few cm of- water, which would make homes still liveable.   H On the other hand, evacuating means that the few "rats" that remain will* go on looting rampages, set fires etc etc.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 14:44:23 -0500 2 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) 3 Message-ID: <$qUhv3LijWM8@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3nod3sF2hhsoU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:+ > Chinooks don't need large airfields.  :-)   D I heard today that someone shot at one of them, and they pulled out.  J > I can't, for the life of me, figure out why my Unit (and me with them!) E > isn't down there fishing surviviors from the roofs of buildings and D > moving emergency supplies into the areas where survivors are still > stranded!!  H Or perhaps bring back some of our Guard troops from Iraq and deploy them inthe gulf coast...    --  O   Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< E Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  I         You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a C         reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about I         repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the 7         struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard     ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 14:45:52 -0500 2 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) 3 Message-ID: <TEMjgpXbpawM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <FFHRe.11594$Td.9972@news.cpqcorp.net>, Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hp.com> writes:G >>> I think the problems at hand would be better solved if the airlifts E >>> were used to bring in supplies, so let the busses take folks out.  > E > What should the planes take with them when the leave the NO area to  > get more supplies?  D Water. Looters. Either of which can be dumped back into the ocean or	 wherever.    --  O   Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< E Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  I         You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a C         reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about I         repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the 7         struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard     ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 20:21:03 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) + Message-ID: <3np65fF2lkmbU1@individual.net>   3 In article <tolLzK4M8bsc@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:X > In article <3nod3sF2hhsoU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>  K >> I can't, for the life of me, figure out why my Unit (and me with them!)  F >> isn't down there fishing surviviors from the roofs of buildings andE >> moving emergency supplies into the areas where survivors are still 
 >> stranded!!  > H >    Politics.  I was happy to hear that our governor deployed our (MD)  >    guard to Mississippi. > G >    But the management of emergency response takes manpower and money. F >    Some politicians are willing to short them in hopes they won't be* >    needed during that politician's term. > J >    The Bush administration has been critized before for poor performance: >    by FEMA.  I suspect in this case they will be, again. > C >    IMHO the current speed and size of the response by the federal D >    government is tragic.  I can only hope the many state and localA >    governments who are responding can in part make up for this.   E I have been saying since the rain stopped and they started announcing E death-tolls that FEMA stepped on it big time.  I can not remember any F other huricane where they feared the death toll was going to be in the; thousands.  After all, this isn't some third world country.    E And the bad news is, I just spoke with my Unit (an Aviation Brigade!) E and they said we have not been tasked for any support and they do not C expect us to be for this one.  Whoever is running the show has said C they have all the aircraft they need.  So I guess I don;t get to go  south to give them a hand.  :-(    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 20:28:27 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) + Message-ID: <3np6jbF2lkmbU2@individual.net>   + In article <431753C3.1000558@teksavvy.com>, 0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:K >>    The Bush administration has been critized before for poor performance ; >>    by FEMA.  I suspect in this case they will be, again.  > D > FEMA may get the blame because it is easy to point fingers at them > without hurting politicians. > H > In the end, the decision to deploy the really big guns to help in thisI > rests with politicians at city, state and washington levels. Yesterday, G > when Bush annoucned he was to make a public annoucement at 17:00, the D > speculation was that he would deploy the military to help with theI > effort. He didn't.  He has the constitutional authority to "impose" the P > military, but the expected behaviour is to wait until the state governor asks.  G Actually, that isn't exactly true.  It is very difficult to utilize the E military within our own borders (remember when people kept asking for G Bush to use the Army to patrol the borders to control illegals and were ? told they can't do that!).  That is the domain of the Guard and F the States.  I am surprised that they have allowed as much active ArmyE participation so far as I've seen.  I know a number of the Blackhawks  came from Ft. Hood, TX.    > H > So people are suffering because politicians don't want to go over each > other's head.   E I still lay the blame primarily on FEMA.  They are supposed to be the J ones to take control at a higher level to prevent this kind of politicing.E Plus, I think the lead up was badly managed.  All the well to do were H evacuated while large numbers of the poor, who would be less prepared toH cope with a disaster of this magnitude, were left in the city and herdedL into badly selected "shelters".  I sure wouldn't hve chosen a domed footballJ stadium as my first choice for shelter.  It may hold a lot of people, but,G as has been demonstrated so far, it totally lacks the needed facilities 
 for such use.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:39:20 -0400- From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) 7 Message-ID: <8660a3a10509011339189a9e37@mail.gmail.com>   ) ------=_Part_10938_15737275.1125607160631 , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Content-Disposition: inline    <snip>  D Stationing hundreds of trucks outside of the danger zone is neat,=20   <snip>  L That would require advance knowledge of where the "danger zone" ends and th= e=20L "safe zone" begins. The Psychic Hot Line was otherwise occupied during that= =20  time, evidently.  I Katrina was a *big* storm, folks, and although NOAA predicted its path=20 K fairly well, you never *really* know where a hurricane is going until it's=  =20 
 almost there.    WWWebb --=20 F NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related=20 correspondence. L All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for service= s=202 pursuant to the terms and conditions located at=20# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/   ) ------=_Part_10938_15737275.1125607160631 + Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Content-Disposition: inline    &lt;snip&gt;<br>
 &nbsp;<br>L Stationing hundreds of trucks outside of the danger zone is neat, <br clear=
 =3D"all"><br>  &lt;snip&gt;<br> <br>L That would require advance knowledge of where the &quot;danger zone&quot; e= nds J and the &quot;safe zone&quot; begins.&nbsp;&nbsp; The Psychic Hot Line was3 otherwise occupied during that time, evidently.<br>  <br>G Katrina was a *big* storm, folks, and&nbsp; although NOAA predicted its D path fairly well, you never *really* know where a hurricane is going until it's almost there.<br> <br>L WWWebb<br>-- <br>NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VM=  S-related correspondence.<br>All? unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located atL <a href=3D"http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/">http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e= /webbww/</a>  + ------=_Part_10938_15737275.1125607160631--    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 20:32:38 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) + Message-ID: <3np6r6F2lkmbU3@individual.net>   2 In article <FFHRe.11594$Td.9972@news.cpqcorp.net>,( 	Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hp.com> writes: > E > What should the planes take with them when the leave the NO area to  > get more supplies?  ? The planes that are carrying supplies are not equiped to handle A pasengers.  You can't just herd them in like sheep. and have them  stand around during flight.    > , >> Chinooks don't need large airfields.  :-) > 7 > But can they hold as many or more people than a bus,    ; Hell, they can hold the whole damn bus!!  And slingload one  from the bottom, too!   H >                                                      and can take them > all the way to Houston?    = Easily, but that isn't really necessary.  They could move all ? the people out to a place where it is easier to get them preped @ for travel and loaded onto the buses or even passenger aircraft.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 14:39:40 -0600 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) ( Message-ID: <4317670C.FF6FCB50@mist.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 5 > In article <1lYAAhIpgVh0@eisner.encompasserve.org>, G >         koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: ` > > In article <4315D67C.DAAB8968@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > >>L > >> As an indication of how long this will take: Houston has just cancelledK > >> its Astrodome's schedule because they will bus people from New Orleans L > >> to Houston, and they've zapped all events there until December already.> > >> (shouldn't they use military airlifts instead of buses ?) > > J > >    I think the problems at hand would be better solved if the airliftsH > >    were used to bring in supplies, so let the busses take folks out. > > I > >    Meanwhile, I don't think there are any large airfields above water  > >    in New Orleans. > >  > + > Chinooks don't need large airfields.  :-)  > I > I can't, for the life of me, figure out why my Unit (and me with them!) E > isn't down there fishing surviviors from the roofs of buildings and D > moving emergency supplies into the areas where survivors are still > stranded!! >   : Well, FEMA is supposed to be able to have the authority to move large populations. ( Apparently, they've become beaureacrats.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:59:07 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) , Message-ID: <43176B8E.82988B37@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:I > Actually, that isn't exactly true.  It is very difficult to utilize the ! > military within our own borders   F From what i heard, it is not easy,m but the president ahs authority toF do so. And a state governor has the authority to ask the president for military help.    G > I still lay the blame primarily on FEMA.  They are supposed to be the L > ones to take control at a higher level to prevent this kind of politicing.  H Perhaps FEMA can specifically be granted the autyhority to call upon the$ military to help for such disasters.  F What i find interesting is that the politicians had no problems sayingE that military assets would be at their disposal right from the start, G but an aircraft carrier only now left port to travel to the gulf. After F the tsunami, US (and other countries') aircraft carriers were directed to the area faster.   G > Plus, I think the lead up was badly managed.  All the well to do were J > evacuated while large numbers of the poor, who would be less prepared to) > cope with a disaster of this magnitude,   C FEMA should have been involved from the second the mayor called for ? mandatory evacuation, and brought in large military transports, H commandeer amtrak trains and even freight trains/box cars to get as many people out as possible.     N > into badly selected "shelters".  I sure wouldn't hve chosen a domed football+ > stadium as my first choice for shelter.     H This is a difficult decision. From a hurricane shelter point of view, it2 may have been a good choice for a 6-12 hour stay.   A When Montreal had its ice storm, many shelters were setup. In the C suburbs, they used school gyms for shelters. They are equipped with E locker rooms , showers etc.  The city fop montreal decided to use its F convention centre. Not a single shower and inadequate toilets for longA term stay of so many people. They were quite criticised for this.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:04:03 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) , Message-ID: <43176CB5.A41C905B@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:A > The planes that are carrying supplies are not equiped to handle C > pasengers.  You can't just herd them in like sheep. and have them  > stand around during flight.   D This is an emergency. Yes you can. They don't stand, they sit on theH floor.  When they evacuated Darwin after Tracy, Qantas put people in the cargo hold of 747s.     ? > Easily, but that isn't really necessary.  They could move all A > the people out to a place where it is easier to get them preped B > for travel and loaded onto the buses or even passenger aircraft.    @ I find it ironic that Amtrak was created in part to maintain theH capability to move large number of people in emergencies, and rail isn'tH mentioned at all. In fact, putting generators to power the pipeline thatF feeds Atlanta's airconditioned SUVs seems to have bigger priority than" powering hospitals in New Orleans.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:17:11 GMT 6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com>9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) < Message-ID: <rdKRe.11971$ou5.75748@twister.southeast.rr.com>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:43176B8E.82988B37@teksavvy.com... > Bill Gunshannon wrote:J >> Actually, that isn't exactly true.  It is very difficult to utilize the" >> military within our own borders > H > From what i heard, it is not easy,m but the president ahs authority toH > do so. And a state governor has the authority to ask the president for > military help. >  > H >> I still lay the blame primarily on FEMA.  They are supposed to be theB >> ones to take control at a higher level to prevent this kind of  >> politicing. > J > Perhaps FEMA can specifically be granted the autyhority to call upon the& > military to help for such disasters. > H > What i find interesting is that the politicians had no problems sayingG > that military assets would be at their disposal right from the start, I > but an aircraft carrier only now left port to travel to the gulf. After H > the tsunami, US (and other countries') aircraft carriers were directed > to the area faster.     M The carrier group was already close (Singapore), steaming toward the Persian  L Gulf.  I had a brother-in-law who helped out with assisting tsunami victims * in that MEU (Marine Expeditionaire Unit?).    H >> Plus, I think the lead up was badly managed.  All the well to do wereK >> evacuated while large numbers of the poor, who would be less prepared to * >> cope with a disaster of this magnitude, > E > FEMA should have been involved from the second the mayor called for A > mandatory evacuation, and brought in large military transports, J > commandeer amtrak trains and even freight trains/box cars to get as many > people out as possible.  >  > G >> into badly selected "shelters".  I sure wouldn't hve chosen a domed   >> football * >> stadium as my first choice for shelter. > J > This is a difficult decision. From a hurricane shelter point of view, it3 > may have been a good choice for a 6-12 hour stay.  > C > When Montreal had its ice storm, many shelters were setup. In the E > suburbs, they used school gyms for shelters. They are equipped with G > locker rooms , showers etc.  The city fop montreal decided to use its H > convention centre. Not a single shower and inadequate toilets for longC > term stay of so many people. They were quite criticised for this.          --     Ken   % _____________________________________  Kenneth Farmer <>< 336-736-7376 3 www.OpenVMS.org | dba.OpenVMS.org | dcl.OpenVMS.org  HP OpenVMS News and Info   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:25:30 GMT 6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com>9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) < Message-ID: <elKRe.12000$ou5.76341@twister.southeast.rr.com>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:43174F0D.E1446A8D@teksavvy.com... > Bob Koehler wrote:I >>    I think the problems at hand would be better solved if the airlifts G >>    were used to bring in supplies, so let the busses take folks out.  > D > More efficient to use airlifts to bring in supplies and leave with" > people instead of leaving empty. > I > Also, just the superdome people, 23,000 will require some 4600 busloads I > to move. Trains and planes are far more effective at evacuating people. I > Even ships would be better. You could probably fit 10,000 passengers on L > an aircraft carrier and move them over a period of 2 days to another port. > H >>    Meanwhile, I don't think there are any large airfields above water >>    in New Orleans.  > G > The airport re-opened the day after for relief operations. It has one I > major runway that is fully usable. American Airlines and Southwest each I > brought in planes with water/food yesterday and started to take out the B > passengers that had been left stranded at the airport during theE > hurricane (about 300) when they prematurely closed the airport well  > before the storm began.  > C > I am not impressed with the response. FEMA said that 4-5 days was B > acceptable.  The military should have been in there with the bigG > artillery within HOURS of the winds dying down, along with amphibious J > vehicles capable of moving on dry portions of streets as well as floodedI > portions of streets. But the military can't do anything until the mayor B > asks the governor to ask the president to allow the military in. > C > They had warned that there would be serious flooding.  Stationing D > hundreds of trucks outside of the danger zone is neat, but in mostJ > hurricanes, roads are impassable due to fallen trees, and in the case ofJ > New Orleans, it was a big bet that at least one bridge/road would remainH > opened, and what do you do when half your trucks are positioned on theD > wrong side and have to make a huge detour around to get to the one > remaining bridge ? > E > After the tsunami, the USA used its big artillery from its aircraft F > carriers to help the destitute people ASAP until the rest of the aidH > organisations could arrive. But for New Orleans, there was a huge void > until aid arrives.    K I replied to an earlier message about this.  The carrier group was already  H in Singapore steaming west when the tsunami hit.  It couldn't have been  planned any better.     G > The mayors, governmors and Bush should have agreed to deploy military I > BEFORE the hurricane so that the military could be on site within hours  > (not days) of the storm.     --     Ken   % _____________________________________  Kenneth Farmer <>< 336-736-7376 3 www.OpenVMS.org | dba.OpenVMS.org | dcl.OpenVMS.org  HP OpenVMS News and Info   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:28:56 GMT 6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com>9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) < Message-ID: <soKRe.12024$ou5.76468@twister.southeast.rr.com>  1 > "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> wrote > > in message news:8660a3a10509011339189a9e37@mail.gmail.com... >  > <snip> > C > Stationing hundreds of trucks outside of the danger zone is neat,  >  > <snip> > A > That would require advance knowledge of where the "danger zone" ? > ends and the "safe zone" begins.   The Psychic > Hot Line was 1 > otherwise occupied during that time, evidently.   @ > Katrina was a *big* storm, folks, and  although NOAA predictedA > its path fairly well, you never *really* know where a hurricane # > is going until it's almost there.      Good point Chip.  > In addition, the flooding didn't start until the levees broke.  I Too much arm chair quarterbacking going on here.  Then again, what's new.          Ken   % _____________________________________  Kenneth Farmer <>< 336-736-7376 3 www.OpenVMS.org | dba.OpenVMS.org | dcl.OpenVMS.org  HP OpenVMS News and Info   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:38:16 -0500 (CDT)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) 2 Message-ID: <05090116381685_2040835C@antinode.org>  - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   F    Would it be possible to solve this problem in some forum other thanA comp.os.vms?  I doubt that the FEMA people will be following this F discussion, and thus will miss all the brilliant advice offered here.  Please contact them directly.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 16:57:25 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) 3 Message-ID: <hNFgCnprWHoe@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <05090116381685_2040835C@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: / > From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  > H >    Would it be possible to solve this problem in some forum other thanC > comp.os.vms?  I doubt that the FEMA people will be following this H > discussion, and thus will miss all the brilliant advice offered here.  > Please contact them directly.    Amen.    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 22:50:41 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) + Message-ID: <3npeu1F2molfU1@individual.net>   , In article <43176B8E.82988B37@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:J >> Actually, that isn't exactly true.  It is very difficult to utilize the" >> military within our own borders > H > From what i heard, it is not easy,m but the president ahs authority toH > do so. And a state governor has the authority to ask the president for > military help.  G Yes, and there are laws in place to prevent the abuse of such practices   which tend to complicate things.   >  > H >> I still lay the blame primarily on FEMA.  They are supposed to be theM >> ones to take control at a higher level to prevent this kind of politicing.  > J > Perhaps FEMA can specifically be granted the autyhority to call upon the& > military to help for such disasters.  E Never going to happen.  The Chain of Command is in place for a reason F and having some civilian from the outside with the ability to break itF would never work.  It would also be way to dangerous and even Congress$ is bright enough to understand that.   > H > What i find interesting is that the politicians had no problems sayingG > that military assets would be at their disposal right from the start,   C Poiticians are very adept at making promises.  That's what they do.   D > but an aircraft carrier only now left port to travel to the gulf.   G Do you have any idea what it takes to get an aircraft carrier underway? ) Rhetorical question, of course you don't.   I >                                                                   After H > the tsunami, US (and other countries') aircraft carriers were directed > to the area faster.   G Except that those carriers were already in the region and in operation,  not in port.   > H >> Plus, I think the lead up was badly managed.  All the well to do wereK >> evacuated while large numbers of the poor, who would be less prepared to * >> cope with a disaster of this magnitude, > E > FEMA should have been involved from the second the mayor called for  > mandatory evacuation,    Agreed.   A >                       and brought in large military transports,   F Not their venue.  And, just what are these "large military transports"F you mention?  In 1972 my entire Battalion deployed to Europe.  We flewE over on an Eastern Airlines jet.  The military does not possess large  fleets of passenger transports.    > commandeer amtrak trains    > Not legally.  You seem to have mistaken us for the Communists.  J >                          and even freight trains/box cars to get as many > people out as possible.   G Which shows how little you really understand about all this.  You can't > herd people like sheep.  For both legal and liability reasons.D Being an armchair quarterback is easy when you won't be the one held responsible.   >  > O >> into badly selected "shelters".  I sure wouldn't hve chosen a domed football , >> stadium as my first choice for shelter.   > J > This is a difficult decision. From a hurricane shelter point of view, it4 > may have been a good choice for a 6-12 hour stay.   @ Planning on as short a stay as that considering the level of theD threat and experience with much smaller hurricanes was rather silly.> Because of how low (below sea level) NO is it should have beenB obvious that the first things that would be lost would be drinkingA water and sanitary facilities.  Even I can remember pictures from B previous huricanes of the water coming back up through the manhole covers.    > C > When Montreal had its ice storm, many shelters were setup. In the E > suburbs, they used school gyms for shelters. They are equipped with G > locker rooms , showers etc.  The city fop montreal decided to use its H > convention centre. Not a single shower and inadequate toilets for longC > term stay of so many people. They were quite criticised for this.   D There was  no doubt that much if not all of NO was going to be under@ water.  Planning on keeping all those people downtown was a plan doomed from the start.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 22:59:24 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) + Message-ID: <3npfecF2molfU2@individual.net>   3 In article <$qUhv3LijWM8@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 5 	kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes: X > In article <3nod3sF2hhsoU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:, >> Chinooks don't need large airfields.  :-) > F > I heard today that someone shot at one of them, and they pulled out.  A They may have withdrawn for the moment, but it is highly unlikely B they "pulled out".  Of course, there is a solution to this problem too.   > K >> I can't, for the life of me, figure out why my Unit (and me with them!)  F >> isn't down there fishing surviviors from the roofs of buildings andE >> moving emergency supplies into the areas where survivors are still 
 >> stranded!!  > J > Or perhaps bring back some of our Guard troops from Iraq and deploy them > inthe gulf coast...   H There are plenty of Guard troops still here.  And lots of us are willing? to leave our jobs for as  long as it takes to get the job done.    bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 23:21:04 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) + Message-ID: <3npgmvF2mnjkU1@individual.net>   , In article <43174F0D.E1446A8D@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:I >>    I think the problems at hand would be better solved if the airlifts G >>    were used to bring in supplies, so let the busses take folks out.  > D > More efficient to use airlifts to bring in supplies and leave with" > people instead of leaving empty.  I Well, there is obviously no way to convince you of the reality of things, H but you can't load passengers on  cargo planes.  Unless, of course, yourH willing to provide us with a letter personally accepting all liability!!   > I > Also, just the superdome people, 23,000 will require some 4600 busloads  > to move.    4 Get bigger buses. That's only 5 people per busload!!  I >          Trains and planes are far more effective at evacuating people.   I You have to move them to the planes and then, you have to have the planes F and the crews and the fuel and, and, and......  Nice being an armchairB quarterback and not having to look at the whole picture, isn't it.  I > Even ships would be better. You could probably fit 10,000 passengers on L > an aircraft carrier and move them over a period of 2 days to another port.  A You have never been on an aircraft carrier, have you.  They don't ? have the facilities to handle 10,000 pasengers.  Definitely not @ enough toilets.  And just think what the environmentalists wouldB say about all those people taking aleak over the rail!!  You thinkD the melting ice-caps are going to raise the level of the seas!!  :-)   > H >>    Meanwhile, I don't think there are any large airfields above water >>    in New Orleans.  > G > The airport re-opened the day after for relief operations. It has one I > major runway that is fully usable. American Airlines and Southwest each I > brought in planes with water/food yesterday and started to take out the B > passengers that had been left stranded at the airport during theE > hurricane (about 300) when they prematurely closed the airport well  > before the storm began.    Your opinion.      > C > I am not impressed with the response. FEMA said that 4-5 days was B > acceptable.  The military should have been in there with the bigG > artillery within HOURS of the winds dying down, along with amphibious J > vehicles capable of moving on dry portions of streets as well as flooded > portions of streets.    7 Amphibious vehicles!!  What army are you talking about?   J >                       But the military can't do anything until the mayorC > asks the governor to ask the president to allow the military in.   > C > They had warned that there would be serious flooding.  Stationing D > hundreds of trucks outside of the danger zone is neat, but in mostJ > hurricanes, roads are impassable due to fallen trees, and in the case ofJ > New Orleans, it was a big bet that at least one bridge/road would remainH > opened, and what do you do when half your trucks are positioned on theD > wrong side and have to make a huge detour around to get to the one > remaining bridge ? > E > After the tsunami, the USA used its big artillery from its aircraft F > carriers to help the destitute people ASAP until the rest of the aidH > organisations could arrive. But for New Orleans, there was a huge void > until aid arrives. > H > The mayors, governmors and Bush should have agreed to deploy military I > BEFORE the hurricane so that the military could be on site within hours  > (not days) of the storm.  @ As usual, you don't know what your talking about.  Stick to VMS.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:05:33 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) , Message-ID: <43179735.F15D22D6@teksavvy.com>   Kenneth Farmer wrote: @ > In addition, the flooding didn't start until the levees broke.    D There was flooding before that, but not as major as what came after.E More importantly, the flooding had been predicted (hence evacuation). G And it is not a surprise that waters rose after the hurricane as ground 4 water drained into the lake from a very large area.   2 They knew New Orleans was a high risk of flooding.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:45:27 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) , Message-ID: <4317A08C.CF7968EA@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:K > Well, there is obviously no way to convince you of the reality of things, J > but you can't load passengers on  cargo planes.  Unless, of course, yourJ > willing to provide us with a letter personally accepting all liability!!  D If Qantas was able to load passengers on the cargo deck of a 747 and@ exceed the legal limits for the 747 to help evacuate Darwin, why! couldn't it be done in the USA ?    F We are talking about an emergency situation/evacuation of a city here. Forget liability.     K > You have to move them to the planes and then, you have to have the planes H > and the crews and the fuel and, and, and......  Nice being an armchairD > quarterback and not having to look at the whole picture, isn't it.  H Moving people in buses to the airporrt for a 30 minute trip requires farG fewer buses and can carry more people per hour since you can re-use the G bus many many times during the day. In term of fuel, aircraft only need G to fuel up at the other city and make sure the distance is such that it   has enough fuel left to return.   C > You have never been on an aircraft carrier, have you.  They don't 2 > have the facilities to handle 10,000 pasengers.   F If it is for an overnight trip to another port, they can put people onG the top deck. Far better than the people stuck in the convention centre C with absolutely NOTHING for days. Not talking about carrier hosting 4 people for days. Just providing mass transportation.    E Where there is a will, there is a way.  If they can lift a lot fo EPA F regulations to allow oil to flow, surely they can lift FAA regulations that limit aircraft capacity.   E In terms of Amtrak, if they can commandeer 500 buses, surely they can G commandeer Amtrak trains, especially since Amtrak is government owned.  E They can get charter carriers to bring in 747s to carry people if you . really don't want to use military transports.   G Let me ask you this: when their hoist people up onto those helicopters, G do you think this is FAA approved treatment for civilians ? Do they get G an armchair  once they are pulled into the helicopter, or are they just  kept on the floor ?   E ITS AN EMERGENCY. FORGET ABOUT COMFORTS AND SECURITY. SAVING LIVES IS 
 WHAT COUNTS.    E Today, things seemed to get better in terms of influx of help.  But a I lot more could have been done in the immediate hours after the hurricane.   F The convention centre is a good example of media miscoverage: they hadE ignored that area because it wasn't damaged/flooded (media never show # undamaged areas after a disaster).    H at http://www.digitalglobe.com , there have some images that do show theE central part of New Orleans and there are many key areas that are dry C and undamaged, although the focus is on the flooded area. (only the ( peripheral areas to the picture are OK).   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:55:48 GMT 1 From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) : Message-ID: <slrndhf8oi.vt0.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx>  = On 2005-09-02, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote: G > Where there is a will, there is a way.  If they can lift a lot fo EPA H > regulations to allow oil to flow, surely they can lift FAA regulations > that limit aircraft capacity.   J They can lift FAA regulations. They can't lift the laws of physics. ThingsH like maximum gross weight and center of gravity limits are there because2 airplanes fall out of the sky if you violate them.  G > In terms of Amtrak, if they can commandeer 500 buses, surely they can I > commandeer Amtrak trains, especially since Amtrak is government owned.    . Sure. Can they comandeer nonexistent trackage?   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2005 01:28:24 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) + Message-ID: <3npo5nF2gnieU1@individual.net>   , In article <4317A08C.CF7968EA@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:L >> Well, there is obviously no way to convince you of the reality of things,K >> but you can't load passengers on  cargo planes.  Unless, of course, your K >> willing to provide us with a letter personally accepting all liability!!  > F > If Qantas was able to load passengers on the cargo deck of a 747 andB > exceed the legal limits for the 747 to help evacuate Darwin, why# > couldn't it be done in the USA ?    = I don't know.  Maybe Aussies aren't as litigous as Americans.    > H > We are talking about an emergency situation/evacuation of a city here. > Forget liability.     H Only if your willing to personally assume all the liability.  Otherwise,H you can't expect the person who is going tobe hit with the multi-million# dollar lawsuit to forget liability.    > L >> You have to move them to the planes and then, you have to have the planesI >> and the crews and the fuel and, and, and......  Nice being an armchair E >> quarterback and not having to look at the whole picture, isn't it.  > J > Moving people in buses to the airporrt for a 30 minute trip requires farI > fewer buses and can carry more people per hour since you can re-use the I > bus many many times during the day. In term of fuel, aircraft only need I > to fuel up at the other city and make sure the distance is such that it " > has enough fuel left to return.   G And where are you keeping all these aircraft and crew?  Why haven't you 
 donated them?    > D >> You have never been on an aircraft carrier, have you.  They don't3 >> have the facilities to handle 10,000 pasengers.   > H > If it is for an overnight trip to another port, they can put people on > the top deck.   D Now I know you have never been on an aircraft carrier.  And we won't% even get into liability once again.     I >               Far better than the people stuck in the convention centre E > with absolutely NOTHING for days. Not talking about carrier hosting 6 > people for days. Just providing mass transportation.  H How do you get 10,000 people out an aircraft carrier that probably can'tG come within 3-5 miles of NO?  Where are the sanatary facilities for the G 10,000 people you have sitting on deck?  Many of whom will probably get I seasick as they are not used to travelling that way.  And no, an aircraft F carrier does n ot ride as smoothly on the sea as The Pacific Princess.G How long to load up and then get to the nearest port cpable of handling E the aircraft carrier and all those people? More than 6 hours? Now you J have to feed them.  Overnight?  Now you have to provide them with sleepingD accomodations.  And we keep coming back to sanitary facilities.  NotF much chance of putting 100 job-johnies on the deck.  Aircraft carriersB were not designed for transporting refugees.  They don't even haveF enough crew to control 10,000 people.  Can you even imagine what wouldE happen if they hit rough seas and those people started to panic?  And % then we are back to liability again!!    >  > G > Where there is a will, there is a way.  If they can lift a lot fo EPA H > regulations to allow oil to flow, surely they can lift FAA regulations > that limit aircraft capacity.   E The possibility for massive deaths is a bit greater when you lift FAA G regulations.  There are many who think FAA regulations are too lax now.    > G > In terms of Amtrak, if they can commandeer 500 buses, surely they can I > commandeer Amtrak trains, especially since Amtrak is government owned.    G Amtrak is not as great as you seem to think.  Rails in this country are F really pretty useless.  Plus, I would imagine most of them int he area0 have been wrecked at least as much as the roads.  G > They can get charter carriers to bring in 747s to carry people if you 0 > really don't want to use military transports.   I You going to pay for this?  Or are you going to expect the airlines, most H of whom already have one foot in bancruptcy court, to foot the bill?  OhI wait, I forgot, socialist, you expect the government to magically come up  with the money.    > I > Let me ask you this: when their hoist people up onto those helicopters, I > do you think this is FAA approved treatment for civilians ? Do they get I > an armchair  once they are pulled into the helicopter, or are they just  > kept on the floor ?   G You have never been in a Blackhawk or a Huey either, I guess.  They sit H in a seat with a seatbelt and shoulder harness.  It's not 1st class, butH it's safe.  And you don't pick up more people than you can safely carry.F No one is "just kept on the floor".  Even when they transport soldiersH into and out of combat you only carry the number of people you have real7 seats for. Trust me, I have ridden in plenty of Huey's.    > G > ITS AN EMERGENCY. FORGET ABOUT COMFORTS AND SECURITY. SAVING LIVES IS  > WHAT COUNTS.    F OK, I'm still waiting for your personal letter assuming all liability.   Armchair quarterbacks!!    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 20:54:53 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) 3 Message-ID: <GrBiPPVBlkDi@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3npo5nF2gnieU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:. > In article <4317A08C.CF7968EA@teksavvy.com>,2 > 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  H >> In terms of Amtrak, if they can commandeer 500 buses, surely they canJ >> commandeer Amtrak trains, especially since Amtrak is government owned.  > I > Amtrak is not as great as you seem to think.  Rails in this country are H > really pretty useless.  Plus, I would imagine most of them int he area2 > have been wrecked at least as much as the roads.  A Presuming there was no damage to railbeds, my recollection of the @ rail connection to the Amtrak station (quite near the Superdome)A is that it is a single track.  This means you cannot have inbound - traffic at the same time as outbound traffic.   @ So I guess it is good that people are spouting off theories hereA rather than wasting the telephone circuits passing these hints on  to the government.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 22:13:52 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) + Message-ID: <4317B55C.8FD0BA1@teksavvy.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:C > Presuming there was no damage to railbeds, my recollection of the B > rail connection to the Amtrak station (quite near the Superdome)C > is that it is a single track.  This means you cannot have inbound / > traffic at the same time as outbound traffic.   C Who said trains would get to the downtown section ? Initially, they E could only get to the outskirts where railbed isn't flooded/damaged.    C 2- Even with single track, you can have service.  Think half duplex F communications instead of full duplex. Inbound train enters the singleE track section while train at station is loading. Then, as the inbound H train arrives, the outbound train can leave, and inbound train can startG loading and then wait for track to be clear before it leaves. Railroads L are used to operate on single tracks, just like IBM was used to half duplex.  % Where there is a will there is a way.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 22:01:26 -0600 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) ( Message-ID: <4317CE96.55D654A9@mist.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > * > In article <4317670C.FF6FCB50@mist.com>,. >         GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com> writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>8 > >> In article <1lYAAhIpgVh0@eisner.encompasserve.org>,J > >>         koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:c > >> > In article <4315D67C.DAAB8968@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  > >> >> O > >> >> As an indication of how long this will take: Houston has just cancelled N > >> >> its Astrodome's schedule because they will bus people from New OrleansO > >> >> to Houston, and they've zapped all events there until December already. A > >> >> (shouldn't they use military airlifts instead of buses ?)  > >> >M > >> >    I think the problems at hand would be better solved if the airlifts K > >> >    were used to bring in supplies, so let the busses take folks out.  > >> >L > >> >    Meanwhile, I don't think there are any large airfields above water > >> >    in New Orleans.  > >> > > >>. > >> Chinooks don't need large airfields.  :-) > >>L > >> I can't, for the life of me, figure out why my Unit (and me with them!)H > >> isn't down there fishing surviviors from the roofs of buildings andG > >> moving emergency supplies into the areas where survivors are still  > >> stranded!!  > >> > > > > > Well, FEMA is supposed to be able to have the authority to > > move large populations. , > > Apparently, they've become beaureacrats. >  > Were they ever any more?  < Worse.  They can get very dictatorial over community lakes. 7 Our community had to hire a good attorney to keep those 6 thugs at bay.  They actually wanted to dictate that we8 needed to make our dam compliant to some ridiculous 5000 year flood plan.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:04:30 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>' Subject: Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance 2 Message-ID: <i9JRe.11618$Nn.3882@news.cpqcorp.net>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message, news:iGGRe.11581$lc.4913@news.cpqcorp.net... > Bob Koehler wrote:; > >   Early Alphas didn't even have word and byte access to C > >   memory, which was corrected in later Alphas because the extra I > >   instructions to get to bytes and words were at least as slow as the , > >   complications to the memory subsystem. > H > Early Alphas avoided word and byte access on purpose to achieve higher > overall performance. > H > Late in Alpha's life, byte instructions were added to the architectureI > and subsequent implementations under pressure because Windows NT device E > drivers used a lot of byte accesses and it was hard to port them to B > Alpha. Ironically, Windows support for Alpha was dropped shortly
 afterward. > C > I'll agree that certain specific byte-oriented operations are now H > faster, but I believe the compromise likely resulted in a reduction in: > overall chip performance due to the trade-offs required.  @ Not really true.  Yes, the original design left out partial word instructionsL with the thought that it would add complexity to the chip.  It turned out toE not be as hard as they thought, it also was found to be important for C source compatability between some x86 drivers and Alpha (since byte B IO had to be done through sparse space).  It's not clear that byte
 operationsF on memory are that much faster than the instruction sequence needed toL load/shift/mask - but it certainly helps code size somewhat.  And as Nick inD the comp.arch files likes to point out - without it, some classes of threadedL (or even those with interrupts/AST's) can have false sharing if they believe@ that adjacent partial word values can be independently modified.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:36:31 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>' Subject: Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance ; Message-ID: <z0ORe.2201$bi5.1040@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    Rob Young wrote:  J >>Did you notice Rob that the above paragraph beginning "After Montecito" K >>isn't in quotes but the previous paragraph was? That's because he didn't  8 >>say it. The journalist just decided to say it for him. >> >  > ? > 	Sure.  So that somehow diminishes its truthfulness?  Here... . > 	how about this as an exercise.. click here:  H I am just pointing out what was said, or rather not said, in the public ; webcast speeches and my own interpretation. Simple as that.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:18:17 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ' Subject: Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance 0 Message-ID: <11hfkb64qbh9n4d@corp.supernews.com>   Rob Young wrote:j > In article <QxBRe.49264$jr4.39026@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> writes: >  >> >>Rob Young wrote: >> >> >>>Stephen Shankland >>>CNET News.com >>>August 31, 2005, 13:30 BST  >>> P >>>"Montecito will deliver a huge step up in performance, more than doubling theR >>>performance capabilities of today's Madison family of products," Gelsinger said
 >>>last week.  >> >>Note the quotes above. >> >>Q >>>After Montecito comes a close relative called Montvale, in 2006. Then in 2007, R >>>Intel plans to introduce a four-core Itanium called Tukwila, a design that will> >>>be succeeded by another four-core chip, code-named Poulson. >>>  >>J >>Did you notice Rob that the above paragraph beginning "After Montecito" K >>isn't in quotes but the previous paragraph was? That's because he didn't  8 >>say it. The journalist just decided to say it for him. >> >  > ? > 	Sure.  So that somehow diminishes its truthfulness?  Here... . > 	how about this as an exercise.. click here: > O > https://www28.cplan.com/cv82/sessions_catalog.jsp?ilc=82-9&ilg=english&ip=yes  > ; > 	Find the .pdfs that contain Itanium future info and note = > 	the references to Montvale and follow-ons (look at Fujitsu * > 	presentations and Intel presentations).I > 	That's the fall 2005 IPF.  The username is ipf , password is fall2005  * > 	(found on realworldtech and elsewhere). > B > 	But I suppose all that doesn't matter.  You wouldn't believe itF > 	anyhow , would you?  So... in 2007 when Tukwila is shipping, you'll; > 	be dissing Poulson and follow-ons?  Or will you find it  F > 	"very very interesting" that at the fall 2007 IPF, they have little6 > 	to say about Itanium - 2 generations in the future?  G That's not the real problem.  Yes, there can be roadmaps and such.  In  G 2007, if even one vendor's x86 CPUs are faster/better/cheaper than the  7 itanic, what do you think most people are going to buy?   B Remember, as mentioned earlier, it appears like intel is throwing G everything including the kitchen sink at x86-64, or is that AMD-64, so  + it's possibly that itanic will be eclipsed.   F You jumped on the itanic bandwagon real quickly when Alpha was killed H for being low volume, too few users with respect to the entire computer E industry, etc.  Well, what will happen to itanic when it has too few  H users, and an owner who has lots less to lose than Compaq did when they I killed Alpha?  All Intel has is the CPUs.  Compaq had the entire VMS and  F T64 user base.  Compaq's solution, move to itanic.  Intel's solution, 5 move to Xeon.  AMD's position, we're waiting for you.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:23:18 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance , Message-ID: <4317D3AA.2AE0C8C0@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:G > You jumped on the itanic bandwagon real quickly when Alpha was killed I > for being low volume, too few users with respect to the entire computer  > industry, etc.    D And the HP apologists will do the same when HP announces, in 2007 orH before, that  it will streamline its platforms on the 8086.  It will useB the exact same arguments that were used to murder Alpha: a move to@ industry standard, high volume commodity and low cost platform.   D Until this happens, the HP apologists are mentally forced to toe theE corporate line and express what the current public roadmaps indicate, 3 even if they are fully aware of the coming reality.    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 23:10:31 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ' Subject: Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance 3 Message-ID: <WY5pYJnO3DIf@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <z0ORe.2201$bi5.1040@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> writes: >  >  > Rob Young wrote: > K >>>Did you notice Rob that the above paragraph beginning "After Montecito"  L >>>isn't in quotes but the previous paragraph was? That's because he didn't 9 >>>say it. The journalist just decided to say it for him.  >>>  >>   >>  @ >> 	Sure.  So that somehow diminishes its truthfulness?  Here.../ >> 	how about this as an exercise.. click here:  > J > I am just pointing out what was said, or rather not said, in the public = > webcast speeches and my own interpretation. Simple as that.  >   1 	Well... referring to this most fud ridden quote:   D "The presentations are all available for replay on Intel's web site.C Worth checking out. Itanic did get a brief 10 minute mention on day H three. Very, very tellingly nothing was even hinted at beyond Montecito.L And the presentation with SGI seemed just to be going through the motions. "  @ 	I'm pointing out that in the presentations there are and indeed8 	reference post-Montecito developments.  This statement:  C "Very, very tellingly nothing was even hinted at beyond Montecito."   ? 	Is puffery.  Go click around on the .pdfs of the presentations > 	and verify.  You may not have heard it, but it was presented.   				Rob    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2005 00:38:36 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ' Subject: Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance 3 Message-ID: <vdpTmbrsh3FR@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <11hfkb64qbh9n4d@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:   > I > That's not the real problem.  Yes, there can be roadmaps and such.  In  I > 2007, if even one vendor's x86 CPUs are faster/better/cheaper than the  9 > itanic, what do you think most people are going to buy?  > D > Remember, as mentioned earlier, it appears like intel is throwing I > everything including the kitchen sink at x86-64, or is that AMD-64, so  - > it's possibly that itanic will be eclipsed.  > H > You jumped on the itanic bandwagon real quickly when Alpha was killed J > for being low volume, too few users with respect to the entire computer G > industry, etc.  Well, what will happen to itanic when it has too few  J > users, and an owner who has lots less to lose than Compaq did when they K > killed Alpha?  All Intel has is the CPUs.  Compaq had the entire VMS and  H > T64 user base.  Compaq's solution, move to itanic.  Intel's solution, 7 > move to Xeon.  AMD's position, we're waiting for you.  >   ? 	You talk in generalities.   There is a pretty good reason that ? 	Power5 is thriving.  It is a high performing CPU.  Look at how ? 	narrow its market is and yet it is doing well.  It runs on IBM ; 	hardware with 2 OSes to its name.  As Gelsinger points out  	about Itanium:   K But Intel has convinced Unisys, NEC, SGI, Fujitsu and Hitachi to join HP in B designing mammoth Itanium systems and bringing them to the market.  O "The industry has lined up--all but one--with Itanium as the platform of choice L for RISC replacement and mainframe platforms for the future," Pat Gelsinger,J general manager of Intel's digital enterprise group, said last week at the( Intel Developer Forum in San Francisco.     < 	Montecito will pull past Power5 in performance and there is? 	speculation in realworldtech.com that it will match Power5+ in 9 	performance (where it counts - tpmC).  Power5, Power5+,  = 	Montecito, Montvale , Tukwila will be in a different segment > 	compared to commodity server parts (Xeon, Opteron).  It isn't> 	as if Hitachi, NEC, SGI, Fujitsu, HP, Unisys are all guessing@ 	at what is coming... Intel is/has been briefing them all along.D 	There is serious money involved - you don't do billion+ investments? 	like Fujitsu for example if you didn't have a long term future B 	in the architecture of choice.  Don't talk Alpha.  Alpha's owners@ 	never had the scale to do what Intel is doing with Itanium (1).   				Rob   E (1)  Still a big Alpha fan I am.  But it is fading into the sunset.         Get over it.    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Sep 2005 00:45:24 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ' Subject: Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance 3 Message-ID: <KBRiD$rh4PKY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <4317D3AA.2AE0C8C0@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  F > Until this happens, the HP apologists are mentally forced to toe theG > corporate line and express what the current public roadmaps indicate, 5 > even if they are fully aware of the coming reality.   3 	What coming reality... your hinting at Death again  	aren't you?  The death of VMS?    http://tinyurl.com/acwr9  : From: Jean-Francois Mezei <"[nospam]jfmezei"@videotron.ca>> Subject: Re: An Open Letter to Mr Robert Palmer, CEO, Digital. Date: 1997/03/09  B "10 years is a very long time in IT terms. It is a darn shame thatH Digital has decided to quicken the death of VMS  when VMS could have hadF quite a few more good years of high quality life. Considering that the@ popular systems are striving to become VMS-like with clustering,J networking etc, VMS isn't that far off from what folks want in features. "   				Rob    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 13:29:32 -0500  From: gleason@encompasserve.org  Subject: Re: Macro code 3 Message-ID: <M1Hrzp+SYElI@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <11he7rps3tb7mfb@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Neil Rieck wrote:  > L >> Getting back to your question, if you are doing any low-level stuff like O >> writing a device driver, then languages like C or BLISS are the only way to  H >> go. You would never use HP-BASIC to produce something like an Apache  >> web-server. :-) > < > 'Never' is a bit too strong of a word to use in the above. > H > Basic could be used to implement a web server.  There is nothing like B > that now since most such software originates on non-VMS systems. >   H   HP Basic, with its excellent dynamic string handling capabilities, andB easy and flexible interface to RMS files, seems like a natural for2 writing a web server...I'd pick it over C any day.   Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:04:58 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: Macro code , Message-ID: <431750D4.B0F5FF61@teksavvy.com>   John Reagan wrote:E > BTW, Macro-64 is slightly more than just as assembler.  It actually G > includes GEM's peepholer and instruction scheduler.  So what goes in,  > isn't exactly what comes out.   G Out of curiosity, do the Macro "compilers" on Alpha and that IA64 thing F still provide proper association of registers, or are registers in theC source code virtualised and the compiler makes its own decisions on F which registers to use , and when to backup one register to use it for0 another purpose and restore its contents later ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 19:59:02 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> Subject: Re: Macro code 2 Message-ID: <a4JRe.11617$io.6509@news.cpqcorp.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:431750D4.B0F5FF61@teksavvy.com... > John Reagan wrote:G > > BTW, Macro-64 is slightly more than just as assembler.  It actually I > > includes GEM's peepholer and instruction scheduler.  So what goes in, ! > > isn't exactly what comes out.  > I > Out of curiosity, do the Macro "compilers" on Alpha and that IA64 thing H > still provide proper association of registers, or are registers in theE > source code virtualised and the compiler makes its own decisions on H > which registers to use , and when to backup one register to use it for2 > another purpose and restore its contents later ?  E Registers are 1:1, but are remapped because the standard set of Alpha B registers and usage differs from IA64.  This is transparent to the
 programmerK until they try to debug it and look at the generated IA64 code.  There is a G translation table someplace in the documentation, someone also had some : mouse pads nicely made up with the mapping and IA64 usage.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:05:50 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Macro code 0 Message-ID: <11her0angaj8k57@corp.supernews.com>    gleason@encompasserve.org wrote:\ > In article <11he7rps3tb7mfb@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  >>Neil Rieck wrote:  >> >>L >>>Getting back to your question, if you are doing any low-level stuff like O >>>writing a device driver, then languages like C or BLISS are the only way to  H >>>go. You would never use HP-BASIC to produce something like an Apache  >>>web-server. :-) >>< >>'Never' is a bit too strong of a word to use in the above. >>H >>Basic could be used to implement a web server.  There is nothing like B >>that now since most such software originates on non-VMS systems. >> >  > J >   HP Basic, with its excellent dynamic string handling capabilities, andD > easy and flexible interface to RMS files, seems like a natural for4 > writing a web server...I'd pick it over C any day.  C All a web server is, is a program that accepts incoming connection  < requests, grants a connection, and satisfy's requests.  The I implementation should be rather easy.  It's the specification of what it  L should be set up to do that's the hard part.  Uh.. make that very hard part.  H I've done some services and clients that use sockets for communication. C   Written in Basic and uses the system service routines for socket  I communications.  It's the sissy C programmers that have to have a socket  
 library.  :-)    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 19:30:49 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  Subject: Re: Macro code 9 Message-ID: <R9MRe.8568$884.760724@news20.bellglobal.com>   4 "John Reagan" <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote in message - news:hYDRe.11543$y_7.1149@news.cpqcorp.net...  > Neil Rieck wrote:  >  >>L >> In a nut shell, MACRO-32 was an assembler targeted at VAX while MACRO-64  >> was targeted at Alpha.  >>9 >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware40/MACRO64/ A >> http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/alpha_diary.html#macro64  >>G >> In the modern world of RISC-based systems, topics like "instruction  M >> scheduling" have made assemblers almost obsolete for public use. The very  K >> best performance can usually be gained by employing a C-compiler with a  < >> built-in optimizer. (HP-C for OpenVMS Alpha for example). > F > BTW, Macro-64 is slightly more than just as assembler.  It actually H > includes GEM's peepholer and instruction scheduler.  So what goes in,  > isn't exactly what comes out.  >   I Thanks for the info. I've done a little hacking with MACRO-64 but didn't  " know about the peephole optimizer.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada." http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 19:42:28 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  Subject: Re: Macro code 9 Message-ID: <MkMRe.8580$884.763247@news20.bellglobal.com>   - <gleason@encompasserve.org> wrote in message  - news:M1Hrzp+SYElI@eisner.encompasserve.org... ? > In article <11he7rps3tb7mfb@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble   > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >> Neil Rieck wrote: >>L >>> Getting back to your question, if you are doing any low-level stuff likeM >>> writing a device driver, then languages like C or BLISS are the only way   >>> toH >>> go. You would never use HP-BASIC to produce something like an Apache >>> web-server. :-)  >>= >> 'Never' is a bit too strong of a word to use in the above.  >>H >> Basic could be used to implement a web server.  There is nothing likeC >> that now since most such software originates on non-VMS systems.  >> > I >  HP Basic, with its excellent dynamic string handling capabilities, and D > easy and flexible interface to RMS files, seems like a natural for4 > writing a web server...I'd pick it over C any day. >   E I agree. We've got both BASIC and C compliers on our system and it's  I tempting (or lazy?) to always choose one over the other. I'm not one for  E using a slot screwdriver when I should be using a chisel; likewise I  M sometimes need to force myself to put away the BASIC compiler and use C. I'd  K estimate that 90% of my work is done in BASIC and this is what my employer   prefers.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada." http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 19:46:07 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  Subject: Re: Macro code 9 Message-ID: <coMRe.8584$884.763760@news20.bellglobal.com>   5 "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message  * news:11her0angaj8k57@corp.supernews.com..." > gleason@encompasserve.org wrote:@ >> In article <11he7rps3tb7mfb@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble   >> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >> >>>Neil Rieck wrote: >>>  >>> M >>>>Getting back to your question, if you are doing any low-level stuff like  M >>>>writing a device driver, then languages like C or BLISS are the only way  L >>>>to go. You would never use HP-BASIC to produce something like an Apache  >>>>web-server. :-)  >>> = >>>'Never' is a bit too strong of a word to use in the above.  >>> I >>>Basic could be used to implement a web server.  There is nothing like  C >>>that now since most such software originates on non-VMS systems.  >>>  >> >>K >>   HP Basic, with its excellent dynamic string handling capabilities, and E >> easy and flexible interface to RMS files, seems like a natural for 5 >> writing a web server...I'd pick it over C any day.  > E > All a web server is, is a program that accepts incoming connection  M > requests, grants a connection, and satisfy's requests.  The implementation  M > should be rather easy.  It's the specification of what it should be set up  = > to do that's the hard part.  Uh.. make that very hard part.  > J > I've done some services and clients that use sockets for communication. C > Written in Basic and uses the system service routines for socket  K > communications.  It's the sissy C programmers that have to have a socket   > library.  :-)  >   M I've used BASIC to do quite a bit of work with TCPware (both Telnet and FTP)  L but realize that C does seem to have its place in Open-Source projects like  Apache.   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada." http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:08:18 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: Macro code 6 Message-ID: <00A492A0.362FBAB7@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  e In article <ybMRe.8570$884.761085@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: 6 >"Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message + >news:11he7rps3tb7mfb@corp.supernews.com...  >> Neil Rieck wrote: >>M >>> Getting back to your question, if you are doing any low-level stuff like  M >>> writing a device driver, then languages like C or BLISS are the only way  L >>> to go. You would never use HP-BASIC to produce something like an Apache  >>> web-server. :-)  >>= >> 'Never' is a bit too strong of a word to use in the above.  >>N >> Basic could be used to implement a web server.  There is nothing like that > >> now since most such software originates on non-VMS systems. > N >You could also implement a web server in DCL but I can't think of any reason  >why you would want to :-)  F But if you wanted to be equally silly, there's at least one web server; implemented in Perl, which ought to run on VMS with libwww.    -- Alan    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:19:48 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com> Subject: Re: Macro code + Message-ID: <EUMRe.16687$um2.4936@trnddc03>    Neil Rieck wrote: 7 > "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message  , > news:11her0angaj8k57@corp.supernews.com... > # >> gleason@encompasserve.org wrote:  >>  A >>> In article <11he7rps3tb7mfb@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble  ! >>> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>>  >>>  >>>> Neil Rieck wrote: >>>>   >>>>   >>>>  C >>>>> Getting back to your question, if you are doing any low-level B >>>>> stuff like writing a device driver, then languages like C orC >>>>> BLISS are the only way to go. You would never use HP-BASIC to 6 >>>>> produce something like an Apache web-server. :-) >>>>  ? >>>> 'Never' is a bit too strong of a word to use in the above.  >>>>  = >>>> Basic could be used to implement a web server.  There is A >>>> nothing like that now since most such software originates on  >>>> non-VMS systems.  >>>>   >>>  >>> 8 >>> HP Basic, with its excellent dynamic string handlingE >>> capabilities, and easy and flexible interface to RMS files, seems D >>> like a natural for writing a web server...I'd pick it over C any >>> day. >>  E >> All a web server is, is a program that accepts incoming connection ? >>  requests, grants a connection, and satisfy's requests.  The C >> implementation should be rather easy.  It's the specification of B >> what it should be set up to do that's the hard part.  Uh.. make >> that very hard part.  >>  ; >> I've done some services and clients that use sockets for > >> communication. Written in Basic and uses the system serviceD >> routines for socket communications.  It's the sissy C programmers+ >> that have to have a socket library.  :-)  >>   >  > E > I've used BASIC to do quite a bit of work with TCPware (both Telnet < > and FTP) but realize that C does seem to have its place in# > Open-Source projects like Apache.   H Much as I prefer BASIC over C, I think that HP BASIC is not thread-safe,E and threads seem to be a natural and efficient way to implement a web G server (though maybe you can do much the same thing just as efficiently  using ASTs.)  E Also BASIC is not very good at creating dynamic objects.  You have to G do tricks like allocate a string of the right size in one routine, then C pass the string to a function or subroutine that expects its arg to E be a record of the appropriate type.  Or you have to pre-allocate all D your objects in enormous arrays (that might never be needed) and useB the array index to designate which thread should use it.  (Or moreC complex schemes where you create a smaller pool of objects as array F elements and set of routines to allocate and deallocate them, and then- worry about what happens when you run out...)   C There is something to be said for object-oriented languages, or for F languages so primitive (like Macro-32 or C) that you can emulate OOL's
 in them.  :-)   < > Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. # > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:09:24 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Macro code + Message-ID: <4317B453.FE1886F8@comcast.net>    S wrote: > 	 > Hi all,  > J > Could someone please drop me a link to read about that Macro language(?) > thing?I > I'm quite curious because I see it always mentioned as a roadblock when H > porting an OS to another platform. VMS has issues with it, Windows hasF > issues with it, so why did people use it, why do they keep using it,E > what's the big deal with it, and what's wrong going with assembler?   A Some posters have mentione dthat "Macro" *IS* the assembler. It's A shortened form of the name "macro-assembler". Even IBM's BAL is a  macro-assembler.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:41:48 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  Subject: Re: Macro code 9 Message-ID: <UYORe.8750$884.793725@news20.bellglobal.com>   3 "John Reagan" <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote in message - news:hYDRe.11543$y_7.1149@news.cpqcorp.net...  > Neil Rieck wrote:    [snip]  E > BTW, Macro-64 is slightly more than just as assembler.  It actually G > includes GEM's peepholer and instruction scheduler.  So what goes in,  > isn't exactly what comes out.  > B > We also have provided an assembler for Itanium.  It is more of aC > traditional assembler.  No real optimization, but it does have an J > auto-bundler so you don't have to worry about templates and where to put > in nop instructions.   [snip]  
 > John Reagan 1 > HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  > Hewlett-Packard Company   H For people interested in MACRO-64 and/or RISC, check out the book "AlphaI RISC Architecture for Programmers" published by  Prentice Hall in 1999. I J just pulled it off the shelf and am looking at chapter #12 titled "LookingJ at Output from Compilers". A small demo program is provided which is codedL in FORTRAN, Pascal and C. The author then runs them through their respectiveK compilers without, and then with, optimization enabled. The example in C is C really cool because after the optimizer is done there are only two   instructions remaining:    MAIN::
     MOV 1, R0      RET R26   L The FORTRAN program still had 48 instructions while the Pascal program still had 37.   F p.s. I just located copies of this book at http://www.alibris.com/ and http://www.amazon.com   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:23:50 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Macro code 0 Message-ID: <11hfklinanjq019@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > John Reagan wrote: > E >>BTW, Macro-64 is slightly more than just as assembler.  It actually G >>includes GEM's peepholer and instruction scheduler.  So what goes in,  >>isn't exactly what comes out.  >  > I > Out of curiosity, do the Macro "compilers" on Alpha and that IA64 thing H > still provide proper association of registers, or are registers in theE > source code virtualised and the compiler makes its own decisions on H > which registers to use , and when to backup one register to use it for2 > another purpose and restore its contents later ?  B You're talking about the MACRO-32 compiler, or MACRO-64 assembler?  H For MACRO-32, the registers are what you expect, but the PC and I think G a few other items, AP, are read only, ie; not the real thing.  You can  D change their value, (maybe), but it won't do anything for you since I they're not the real PC and such.  Interesting for MACRO programmers who   took 'liberties' on VAX.  G I was bit by the AP.  Incrementing it's value when reading an argument  
 list.  :-)   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:37:34 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Macro code 0 Message-ID: <11hflfadkbpil1c@corp.supernews.com>   John Santos wrote: > Neil Rieck wrote:  > 8 >> "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message - >> news:11her0angaj8k57@corp.supernews.com...  >>$ >>> gleason@encompasserve.org wrote: >>> B >>>> In article <11he7rps3tb7mfb@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble " >>>> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Neil Rieck wrote:  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>> D >>>>>> Getting back to your question, if you are doing any low-levelC >>>>>> stuff like writing a device driver, then languages like C or D >>>>>> BLISS are the only way to go. You would never use HP-BASIC to7 >>>>>> produce something like an Apache web-server. :-)  >>>>>  >>>>> @ >>>>> 'Never' is a bit too strong of a word to use in the above. >>>>> > >>>>> Basic could be used to implement a web server.  There isB >>>>> nothing like that now since most such software originates on >>>>> non-VMS systems. >>>>>  >>>> >>>>9 >>>> HP Basic, with its excellent dynamic string handling F >>>> capabilities, and easy and flexible interface to RMS files, seemsE >>>> like a natural for writing a web server...I'd pick it over C any 	 >>>> day.  >>>  >>> F >>> All a web server is, is a program that accepts incoming connection@ >>>  requests, grants a connection, and satisfy's requests.  TheD >>> implementation should be rather easy.  It's the specification ofC >>> what it should be set up to do that's the hard part.  Uh.. make  >>> that very hard part. >>> < >>> I've done some services and clients that use sockets for? >>> communication. Written in Basic and uses the system service E >>> routines for socket communications.  It's the sissy C programmers , >>> that have to have a socket library.  :-) >>>  >> >>F >> I've used BASIC to do quite a bit of work with TCPware (both Telnet= >> and FTP) but realize that C does seem to have its place in $ >> Open-Source projects like Apache. >  > J > Much as I prefer BASIC over C, I think that HP BASIC is not thread-safe,G > and threads seem to be a natural and efficient way to implement a web I > server (though maybe you can do much the same thing just as efficiently  > using ASTs.)  F Not thread safe, as far as I know.  There are always multiple ways to  solve a problem.  : > Also BASIC is not very good at creating dynamic objects.  F Actually, I don't think it can create dynamic objects, totally within E BASIC.  But C is not the only language that can do the equivalent of  6 malloc.  Rundown handlers will of course be necessary.  
 > You have to I > do tricks like allocate a string of the right size in one routine, then E > pass the string to a function or subroutine that expects its arg to & > be a record of the appropriate type.  $ Still doable, and not too difficult.  ! > Or you have to pre-allocate all F > your objects in enormous arrays (that might never be needed) and useD > the array index to designate which thread should use it.  (Or moreE > complex schemes where you create a smaller pool of objects as array H > elements and set of routines to allocate and deallocate them, and then/ > worry about what happens when you run out...)   $ The RECORD statement is rather nice.  0 Frame set-up and break-down is rather expensive.  E > There is something to be said for object-oriented languages, or for H > languages so primitive (like Macro-32 or C) that you can emulate OOL's > in them.  :-)   I I'll admit that I resort to MACRO-32 when I need to do some of the shady  E stuff.  That common calling standard that all (as far as I know) VMS  . languages except C adhere to is rather useful.     --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 14:58:48 -0500 2 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)= Subject: Re: Mixed interconnect VAX VMS 6.2 cluster challenge 3 Message-ID: <wrw0izWhcuf4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   m In article <1125521214.303523.283590@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "syslost" <wm.reynolds@gmail.com> writes: D > We have a VAX VMS 6.2 mixed interconnect cluster configured as so:  > Site 1 is 25 miles from Site 2 > 3 >     Site 1                                 Site 2 8 >  x______x______x__100MBTelnet/DECNet___x_____x_______xD >  | x____|_x____|_x_____________________|_x___|_x_____|_x 100MB SCS: >  | |    | |    | |                     | |   | |     | |: > ----   ----   ----                    ----   ----   ----; > |v1 |  |v3 |  |v4 |                   |v2 |  |v4 |  |v6 | : > ----   ----   ----                    ----   ----   ----9 >   |      |      |                       |      |      | 9 >   |      |      |                       |      |      | 9 >   |      |      |                       |      |      | 9 >   |      |      |                       |      |      | > >  ------------------ Star coupler       ------------------ SC9 >   |     |      |                         |     |      | : > ----  ----   ----                      ----  ----   ----E > |hsj| |hsj|  |hsj| 24 HSJ 50           |hsj| |hsj|  |hsj| 16 HSJ 50 ; > |   | |   |  |   |                     |   | |   |  |   | : > ----  ----   ----                      ----  ----   ----< > Lots of rz40's, all                    Lots of rz40's, all: > dual ported, most                      dual ported, most/ > shadowed                               shadow   K Is one of your network links exclusively for cluster traffic, and the other L exclusively network? if so, and assuming that each cluster member has 1 voteC and quorum is thus 4, a failure of that link will lock the cluster.    --  O   Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< E Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  I         You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a C         reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about I         repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the 7         struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard     ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 22:41:03 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> = Subject: Re: Mixed interconnect VAX VMS 6.2 cluster challenge 2 Message-ID: <3sLRe.11653$Au.2754@news.cpqcorp.net>   Bob Kaplow wrote: M > Is one of your network links exclusively for cluster traffic, and the other  > exclusively network?  L  From the diagram, it looks like it. I missed that detail on the first pass.  G Rather than trying to figure all this out by yourself and hope you get  I it right, you should seriously consider purchasing the Disaster Tolerant  E Cluster Services package of consulting and tools to get the job done  C right. That includes help in planning, design, implementation, and  > training, and monitoring tools to help you build and manage a ( disaster-tolerant cluster properly. See ? http://h20219.www2.hp.com/services/cache/10597-0-0-225-121.aspx    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:58:00 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com+ Subject: Re: Pass arguments to a .com file. Q Message-ID: <OF71EFB85B.CF8BAB88-ON8525706F.0060FF42-8525706F.0062B1A9@metso.com>   I koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote on 09/01/2005  08:42:19 AM:  E > In article <df5gba$ple$1@news01.intel.com>, Ken Fairfield <my.full.  > name@intel.com> writes: H > >      Right.  $ DEL*ETE == "DELETE/CONFIRM" is especially frustratingC > > when you're wanting to do a DELETE/ENTRY or DELETE/SYMBOL, etc.  > I >    If DEL*ETE == "DELETE/CONFIRM" then DELETE/SYMBOL will complain, but 5 >    will work when you DELETE/SYMBOL/GLOBAL DELETE .  > , >    Which has always served me well enough. > J This has in the past been particularly vexing when using the LOG option ofH VMSINSTAL.COM which turns for example DELETE into DELETE/LOG and results9 in VMSINSTAL attempting DELETE/LOG/SYMBOL with the result  $ xxx="foo"  $ delete/log/symbol xxx B %DCL-I-IGNQUAL, qualifiers appearing before this item were ignored	  \SYMBOL\  $ sho symbol xxx= %DCL-W-UNDSYM, undefined symbol - check validity and spelling  $ 0 that the operation works, but the console shows:  B %DCL-I-IGNQUAL, qualifiers appearing before this item were ignored	  \SYMBOL\   * which is somewhat cryptic with verify off.' Also the /LOG option is not toggled ON.   B That is of course because DELETE/SYMBOL is positional, but I oftenA wondered why DCL didn't try changing DELETE/something/SYMBOL into C DELETE/SYMBOL/something before just omitting the /something as -I-.   @ It took even the CSC a long time to grok what this message meantB since most customers did not use the LOG option during VMSINSTALs.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:10:53 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com+ Subject: Re: Pass arguments to a .com file. Q Message-ID: <OF1D73F1C3.765C6390-ON8525706F.0062BC26-8525706F.0063DFA0@metso.com>   I koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote on 09/01/2005  08:40:17 AM:  B > In article <iDlRe.4072$aR1.3063@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes: > J > > Users I run across seem to _love_ $DEL*ETE :== ... in their LOGIN.COMsB > > and using the full spelling of DELETE doesn't circumvent that. > = >    That's what DELETEE is for.  I use it in lots of places.  > H That's a KLUDGE, but when using it I prefer "DELETE_ " as more readable.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 14:50:16 -0500 2 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)% Subject: Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX 3 Message-ID: <rkbqH2bPvoBx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <1125527346.583792.77300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: H > I don't see why people tend to like the term "VAXen". It reminds me ofH > fauna, centaurs, oxen, and fairy-tale space -- not exactly what I like" > to think of when I think of VAX. > H > (What a cool name: VAX. Then there's the ever popular VAX/VMS. And theH > older VAX-11. Hard to beat! How can you beat -- VAX -- or -- VAX/VMS?) > D > Do you pay taxen and send faxen to order VAXen which come in boxen7 > dragged by oxen? Do you cut open the boxen with axen?  > ! > I prefer VAXes or VAX systems.    + I thought the plural of VAX was VAXcluster.   L Although I've liked and used VAXen ever since I first heard the term. My dad= used to quote the old cartoon strip line "Ox Oxen Box Boxen".   D I recently asked my wife the corresponding question about Alpha. Her+ response was that Alpha IS the plural form.    --  O   Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< E Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  I         You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a C         reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about I         repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the 7         struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard     ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:50:22 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)% Subject: Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX $ Message-ID: <df7t2u$jj2$2@online.de>  3 In article <rkbqH2bPvoBx@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 5 kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes:    N > Although I've liked and used VAXen ever since I first heard the term. My dad? > used to quote the old cartoon strip line "Ox Oxen Box Boxen".   G I think it's pretty obvious that it is modelled after Germanic plurals. H The "en" suffix occurs a lot in German, in many different contexts.  At B an airport on Tenerife, I recall an Englishman being amused by an G advertisement (in German) which said "Wir wnschen Ihnen einen schnen   Urlaub".   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Sep 2005 18:35:40 -0700 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>% Subject: Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX C Message-ID: <1125624940.479176.274500@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Bob Kaplow wrote: k > In article <1125527346.583792.77300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: J > > I don't see why people tend to like the term "VAXen". It reminds me ofJ > > fauna, centaurs, oxen, and fairy-tale space -- not exactly what I like$ > > to think of when I think of VAX. > > J > > (What a cool name: VAX. Then there's the ever popular VAX/VMS. And theJ > > older VAX-11. Hard to beat! How can you beat -- VAX -- or -- VAX/VMS?) > > F > > Do you pay taxen and send faxen to order VAXen which come in boxen9 > > dragged by oxen? Do you cut open the boxen with axen?  > > " > > I prefer VAXes or VAX systems. > - > I thought the plural of VAX was VAXcluster.  > N > Although I've liked and used VAXen ever since I first heard the term. My dad    = It doesn't make you think of dainty fauna prancing through an  "enchanted forest"?   ) Yeah, what a great image for VAX systems.     4 Looks like I'm outvoted, though. Dainty fauna it is.     [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:41:54 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> % Subject: Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX 0 Message-ID: <11hflnb5l85kcbc@corp.supernews.com>   Bob Kaplow wrote:   F > I recently asked my wife the corresponding question about Alpha. Her- > response was that Alpha IS the plural form.   ! Ok, ask her the plural of itanic.    Fleet?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:40:55 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX , Message-ID: <4317D7CB.9AA3BA57@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:# > Ok, ask her the plural of itanic.  >  > Fleet?   Itanium -> Itania    Itanic -> Itanics    Sinking -> Sinking   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.489 ************************