1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 04 Sep 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 493       Contents: Re: Another PHP solution... 0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15)0 Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance' Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64 + Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64 + Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64 + Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64 < Re: Newbie - Booting Alphaserver 4/266 and third party disks Re: NTP Under UCX Questions  Re: RD drive unit numbers  Re: RD drive unit numbers   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 01:20:00 GMT 0 From: Michael Austin <nospam@firstdbasource.com>$ Subject: Re: Another PHP solution...; Message-ID: <4ZrSe.1851$ZL4.490@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>    healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:4 > Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote: > L >>So, I found TR Newsportal WebNewsReader and installed it on my VMS server J >>at home.  I made the appropriate edits to the config file to add my ISP  >  > 
 > URL please.     Z I don't recall, but I think it was from the hotscripts site...  http://www.hotscripts.com/ then search for newsportal  Z Oh, one other minor change that I made was to change the form type to POST instead of GET., When posting it just seems to work better...   Michael Austin.   2 > Also, does this allow you to post, or just read? > 
 > 	Thanks, > 	    Zane    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 18:15:16 GMT % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) : Message-ID: <UKlSe.2608$Kk1.78@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>  6 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message % news:3ns694F348t0U1@individual.net... ; > In article <ER1Se.983$pm2.725@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, , > Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> writes: >> >> >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>L >>>>"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," she said. "These troopsL >>>>know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and >>>>I expect they will." >>>  >>> K >>> We will see.  But it will have to wait till I stop laughing and can get  >>> back up in my chair. >>I >> Well take it up with the governor, the mayor and the president who are D >> all saying the same thing. In fact they had a discussion on WWLTVH >> (Channel 4 News New Orleans which was still streaming on the InternetH >> from makeshift studios at the bottom of their transmission tower whenI >> everything else in NO was off the air) on this very subject. The mayor F >> said people with your viewpoint are just plain wrong in the current >> circumstances.  > F > Depends on what you think my viewpoint is.  I am totally in favor ofE > shooting.  Anyone with a gun that isn't miltary ot law enforcement. H > No questions asked.  But reality where the National Guard is concerned  L Don't think that people have the right to carry their guns for self defense?  G Shouldn't there be at least a hint of hostility before the military or   police open fire?    ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 13:23:26 -0500 (CDT)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) 2 Message-ID: <05090313232651_2040B07B@antinode.org>  ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>   K > >    All the off-topic content dilutes the technical content to the point E > > where it's too much trouble to wade through the trash to find the G > > treasure.  This degrades, and could eventually destroy, what should  > > remain a valuable resource.  > A > Degrades, some.  Destroy, not unless there are too many rigid,    > inflexible, intolerant people.  7    So, are you saying that degrading it "some" is good?   J > It seems to me that when a valid technical question comes up, there are I > usually quite a few good helpful replies.  So the technical stuff gets  I > serviced on a priority basis.  The rest is just the small talk between  I > friends (as Bob mentioned) when there isn't a burning technical issue.  3 > It seems some like things this way, others don't.   F    My point is not that small talk between friends is bad, merely that= it should occur SOMEWHERE ELSE.  What do I need, double-high,   double-wide, bold, and flashing?  ?    How do you justify the loss from annoying potentially useful C contributors (whether or not they're "rigid, inflexible, intolerant A people") to the point that they go away?  (Wow.  Both rigid _and_ ' inflexible.  They must be real stiffs.)   K > >    And the Info-VAX users getting this dreck by e-mail need to cull the 0 > > crap manually, which can be a real nuisance. >  > Yeah, that's a real problem.  D    I'm still waiting to hear the benefits of degrading the forum andH causing a real problem, other than providing a bit of social contact for
 the isolates.   D    You may expect no more from me on this topic here.  I'd prefer toC reduce the clutter rather than increase it, and it appears that the E logic of my argument is powerless in the face of a typical tragedy of  the common.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2005 18:31:22 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) + Message-ID: <3nu8fpF3c8ihU2@individual.net>   : In article <UKlSe.2608$Kk1.78@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>,( 	"John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:8 > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message ' > news:3ns694F348t0U1@individual.net... < >> In article <ER1Se.983$pm2.725@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,- >> Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:  >>>  >>>  >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> M >>>>>"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," she said. "These troops M >>>>>know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and  >>>>>I expect they will."  >>>> >>>>L >>>> We will see.  But it will have to wait till I stop laughing and can get >>>> back up in my chair.  >>> J >>> Well take it up with the governor, the mayor and the president who areE >>> all saying the same thing. In fact they had a discussion on WWLTV I >>> (Channel 4 News New Orleans which was still streaming on the Internet I >>> from makeshift studios at the bottom of their transmission tower when J >>> everything else in NO was off the air) on this very subject. The mayorG >>> said people with your viewpoint are just plain wrong in the current  >>> circumstances. >>G >> Depends on what you think my viewpoint is.  I am totally in favor of F >> shooting.  Anyone with a gun that isn't miltary ot law enforcement.I >> No questions asked.  But reality where the National Guard is concerned  > N > Don't think that people have the right to carry their guns for self defense?  H No more than they can do that here and now.  I do no know anyone who canL legitimately claim they own a gun for self-defense.  Hunting, plinking cans,J shooting at targets, but not self-defense.  And most ordinary citizens areI not capable of it either.  Have you ever looked a man straight in the eye J and then shot him?  Ordinary citizens haven't.  Criminals frequently have.   > I > Shouldn't there be at least a hint of hostility before the military or   > police open fire?   F So what, if the other guy shoots you and you don't die then it's OK toG shoot back?  That was a major problem in the later days of VietNam. Had H to call back for permission to return fire.  It didn't work there and itK won't work here.  Anyone in NO carrying a gun is a thug.  Ordinary citizens J just don't act that way.   If the police were more willing  and capable ofI using the guns they carry there would be a lot less crime on the streets.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2005 11:21:58 -0700 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) B Message-ID: <1125771718.577399.99800@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Dave Froble wrote: > AEF wrote: > 6 > > Once the Air Force was late to thwart the attacks, > J > Not really sure what you were implying, but regardless I'm going to jump# > all over you for that little bit.   F And hang yourself in the process. When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.   > J > The Air Force is not tasked to routinely fly combat air patrols over any > part of the nation.    Agreed.    > D > Until Sept 11, 2001, not very many people even considered multipleJ > airliners would be used for such an attack.  Until that date, hijackings2 > usually affected the passengers on the aircraft. > I > Air Force pilots aren't in the habit of shooting down airliners full of J > innocent people.  I sure wouldn't want the to be so.  You shouldn't wantI > them to be so.  "Hey, look!  There's an airliner.  We haven't shot down J > anything lately.  Fire a missle at it."  Not in the USA!  Hell, not even  D Don't be ridiculous. It is the Air Force's job to defend the nation.C Sometimes that may entail shooting down a passenger jet. Admittedly D this is not something that most people would expect to have to worryA about, but some did suggest so. The PA (Port Authority, owner and D builder of WTC) was asked if the WTC towers could withstand a directF hit by a large airplane well before 9/11, and perhaps even before they were built.   E > in Russia when the German kid flew a Cessna to Red Square.  The air F > defense people knew the magnatude of the potential harm, and did the= > right thing.  Wait for him to land, and then spank his ass.  > ? > Finally, don't blame the Air Force for the actions of others.     @ I was blaming the Air Force for being late, not for the disaster= itself. The blame for the disaster obviously belongs with the A terrorists. Whether it is reasonable to expect that the Air Force F should have been there on time at that time is not something I wish to' comment on. But the Air Force WAS late.   G Perhaps I should have said "Once the planes struck the towers" instead. F That might have been better. But I was thinking in terms of a responseG to JF's post about comparing the NO and NYC disasters and was trying to F show that Giuliani wasn't always in control (I'm almost surprised thatG JF didn't complain that Giuliani didn't get the Air Force jets there in F time!) In fact, Giuliani almost got himself killed by being too close!D After the towers came down he did pretty well. But he didn't have toG contend with nearly all of Manhattan being flooded with people stranded C on roofs without food, water, and electricity. And he didn't have a G Superdome disaster to deal with either. Such changes would make it more A comparable. I think JF is being unduly harsh on the NO mayor both G because the disasters are NOT COMPARABLE and because not all mayors can  be Giuliani.  B BTW, I was six blocks from WTC when it went down. I still remember> standing on the pier, after both towers had collapsed, hearingG high-speed jets roar overhead. I was thinking: "Are these ours? I think ? they are, but if they are they're a little late. Are there more E terrorists on their way?" All this while the cloud of dust and debris F slowly floated towards me. Fortunately, there was a ferry there that I took to Brooklyn.   G Yes, the 9/11 disaster is the fault of the terrorists. But I can't help 6 but be a little angry that we hadn't responded better.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2005 11:35:09 -0700 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) C Message-ID: <1125772509.578677.168470@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > AEF wrote:H > > Uh, if you're still comparing him to Giuliani, what did he do to aid= > > any evacuation? The subways were ordered to stop. Period.  > I > I wasn't refering to general evacuation skills, just general leadership J > abilities (from the viewer's point of view).  Guiliani presented himselfI > as someone in control, inspired confidence. The New Orleans mayor seems I > to be powerless and doesn't present himself as somone capable of saving  > the city.  > E > It could simply be that Guiliani is much more media savvy and hence G > appears much better to TV viewers. Bit that is still a very important  > quality required of a leader.   I 1=2E) The situations are not comparable. Imagine all of Manhattan flooded F with people trapped on the roofs without food, water, and electricity.  I 2=2E) Giuliani is exceptional. It is unreasonable to expect all mayors to  be like him.   >  > I > > and/or took ferries. These were people at work trying to get home. In J > > NO you have people trapped by flood waters on the roofs of their homesK > > trying to get out, but have no home to go to once they get out, if they  > > get out. > H > From a mayor's point of view, he has a role to inform his constituentsD > via the media etc on what is being done and when it is being done.G > Right now, it seems that there are a gazillion sources of information D > coming from various government agencies, so it doesn't provide the* > impression that the mayor is in control.  C Not being in NO you are merely speculating. People trapped on roofs E without water, food, or electricity don't have much to go on. What do B you expect the mayor to do? Drop poratble radios from heilcopters?? Should he get a row boat and a megaphone to supply information?    >  > K > > Many people could walk to working transportation on 9/11. People in New J > > Orleans are trapped on their roofs or fighting each other for food and
 > > water. > G > But the media don't mention the portions of NO which are not flooded. F > Are there people there getting any food/water ? Are they getting any > policing ?   ???    >  > I > > And just how is he going to get all these things running when they're > > > covered by feet of water that came from levees that broke? > D > Convention centre, from the look of it, was not on a flooded area. > D > And even if flooded, helicopters can bring food, water and porableH > toilets, generators, medical supplies, and some authority with workingG > communications device (sat phone, walky talky etc). This was not done  > for days.   9 I think you underestimate the magnitude of the situation.    > 
 > > Do youI > > expect his police to swim to the levees with sandbags on their backs?  > I > Since this is a VMS group and disaster recovery is a hot topic, I would J > expect the city might have had levee repair "kits" strategically locatedE > near the levees, perhaps already on barges during hurricane season. G > Interesting that they are bringing the bags one by one  by helicopter ' > when the canal seems to be navigable.   B The city was unprepared. So what? We weren't prepared for 9/11? So? what? What is your point (try to keep it to less than 250 words  please!)    . > > I thought pretty much nothing was working. > J > That is what the media is making it look like. However, I have read thatE > there is telephone service in some of the industrial areas, notably E > Michoud, where the make the ETs). NASA's Stennis also has telephone F > service. (possibly via satellite links). The airport is operational,@ > they have power, ventilation.  Generators can be provided too.  G Obviously that's not enough. "Generators can be provided too". That's a F little to vague to be of much worth. That's like saying, "Water can be! pumped out. Levees can be fixed."    >  > & > If you look at the satellite images,L > http://www.digitalglobe.com/images/katrina/new_orleans_msi_aug31_2005_dg.= jpg  > G >  you'll see that west of one of the canal, it is dry. (but they don't E > show much of it since it is not of interest to news media who don't , > report on undamaged sections of the city). >  > J > yes, the flooded area is large. But the picture doesn't show how much ofJ > that area is covered with a few cm of water versus metres of water. Just: > that one picture does show dry areas around new orleans. >  > F > Remember that the media hadn't even bothered to visit the conventionD > centre. They have definitely not gone to every area of the city toC > report what works and what doesn't.  If they focus on the central F > (flooded) portion, then of course, they will have mobility problems. > G > It is quite possible that areas west of the cana are functioning very D > well with some of the people who sayed living a fairly normal lifeF > (relatively) but might need food supplies. We don't know because the > media aren't reporting.   8 Well, if we don't know there isn't much to say about it.   >  > I > When we have the ice storm in Montreal in 1998, even on radio, we heard H > regular reports from Hydro Qu=E9bec on what parts of southern qu=E9becH > worked and didn't work, and which regions would require much more timeG > to restore than others. And we knew that even portions that had power J > inside of montreal were are risk of power failures due to load shedding.E >  The subways system had all escalators shut down to save power, and G > there were periods where portions of the subway were shutdown to save  > power.  G Again, apples and oranges. Acutally, mice and elephants. No comparison.    > I > For new orleans, they aren't reporting on regions, they are just saying D > that all fo its is flooded/dead. The media were reluctant to bringF > reporters to the airport since they woudl be shoring portiosn of theL > city that are working and that would diminish the sensationalism of the r=	 eporting.   9 Fine. Maybe a small portion of the city is okay. So what?   E > The problem is that when politicians rely on sensationalistic media J > reports, they make decisions which may or may not be right. If the mediaG > say that all of NO is flooded, then of course the mayor will call for J > total evacuation. But if they media were to rteport that there are largeG > sectiosn west fo the canal which are not flooded, including parks X Y G > and Z, perhaps decisions to evacuate (post hurricane) might have been L > different sicn it might have been possible to setup tent cities in those = areas.  - Again you conclude much based on very little.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 16:06:30 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) , Message-ID: <431A0243.B0A47008@teksavvy.com>  
 AEF wrote:F > Don't be ridiculous. It is the Air Force's job to defend the nation.  G Yep. And even on 9-11, they were ready. Aren't they in a constant state E of readiness ? It is a question of them being given orders. Until the % orders come, they don't take action.    I > to JF's post about comparing the NO and NYC disasters and was trying to - > show that Giuliani wasn't always in control   E There is a big difference here. 9-11 itself happened very quickly and E without warning.  At first, they didn't even know how big a plane had G hit the north tower.  So the mayor couldn't have called the airforce to H shoot down the second one because he didn't even know there was a second* one.  And this was happening in real time.  H New Orleans happened in slow motion, over a period of days from the timeE weatherman started to say New Orleans was to be a target for Katrina.     E > on roofs without food, water, and electricity. And he didn't have a * > Superdome disaster to deal with either.   1 The superdome "disaster" was the mayor's making.  + 	1- Not providing transportation for people 9 	2- Not beginning evacuation as soon as storm had passed.   C The arguments that the structure was well suited to protect tens of H thousands of people for a few hours was sound. But FOR A FEW HOURS. ThatD buys you time to arrange for something else after the imminent storm danager has passed.   D It doesn't take einstein to know that a stadium cannot cater to thatB many people for long durations (lack of showers for one thing, andF insufficient toilets). A facility can be designed to hold a very largeG number of people for 3-4 hours, but when you hold them for more than 24 E hours, toilet requirements rise significantly because guys won't just  use urinals.  F What I find interesting is the issue of generators. The montreal ForumH had a stanley cup final the night qubec went dark due to unusual auroraF borealis up north which induced currents into long transmissions lines and tripped the network.  H The forum continued to operate, and so did the networks broadcasting theE game. Big lights and all, as well as the rtefrigiration units to keep F the ice. (it was in may).  They opened all doors at street level (withC guards) and opened traps on ceiling of structure to provide natural Q ventilation. (the heat from lights up above would cause a fairly big air current.   E So I am somewhat perplexed that a facility the city knew was the best @ structure to house people durring a hurricane wouldn't have been$ equipped with sufficient generators.    C > comparable. I think JF is being unduly harsh on the NO mayor both I > because the disasters are NOT COMPARABLE and because not all mayors can  > be Giuliani.    # Ok, let me rephrase my "complaint".   F Giuliani was providing factual updates to his people, what was workingH ,what wasn't working, whaty they were working on, what problems they areC having and how they were going to fix this. He gave confidence that E things would improve.  He appeared to be on top of things and to know C what was going on and inspired confidence that the authorities were ' taking actions that were intelligent.     E The NO mayor is complaining about everything going wrong, complaining H about not getting troups in in time, complaining about this and that andG isn't mentioning what works, what doesn't work. He just doesn't inspire F confidence that the city is on top of things and has a plan to restore the city to order and function.   F There have been plenty of studies down over the years about what wouldE happen should the levies break. The mayor should be aware of this and H should have been able to provide more detailed plans to the media on how< restoring the city would work (various progess "steps" etc).    H Alan Grieg says that the mayor had been warning CNN about the conventionF centre since very early on. I had not heard of this. And I listened toF CNN.  The FEMA director hadn't heard of this and he no only listens toE CNN (like most politicians in Washington), but should also be getting   reports from the city directly.   ? The *impression* I have is that the mayor is in his home with a F telephone and doesn't dare go out. If the town hall is inaccessible byH car because water is too high, then he should have moved the "town hall"E to another location where it is dry, generators can be setup and make C damned sure he gave a very clear impression that the city was still G operating (as opposed to all city administrators having bailed and left A the stranded people to fend for themselves until the army arrives E whenever it feels like it), and that they were working hard to rescue " people from the damaged sections.     G It could be that the mayor is expremenly competent, but he doesn't come 8 across as such. And that is part of being a good leader.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 16:37:37 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) , Message-ID: <431A098B.8DF743BC@teksavvy.com>  
 AEF wrote:G > without water, food, or electricity don't have much to go on. What do D > you expect the mayor to do? Drop poratble radios from heilcopters?A > Should he get a row boat and a megaphone to supply information?   B Megaphones from boats or helicopters. YES.   Informing citizens isF extremely important. You not only give them hope they will be rescued,F but can also give them instructions on how to prepare to be rescued to7 make rescues faster (hence rescue more people per day).     ; > I think you underestimate the magnitude of the situation.   > Nop. I think the media are overestimating the magnitude of theC situation.  The flooded areas are bad, very bad. There are a lot of D residential homes under a lot of water. But the city is not entirely	 flooded.    H I think that one problem was that city workers, including police, bailedH and left, combined with the fact that the mayor didn't make pressure forH the government to set things in motion to get the troups in within hoursG of the storm being over. There just wasn't enough staff left to operate = the city and police to get to the convention centre and help.     B > The city was unprepared. So what? We weren't prepared for 9/11?   G The city had repeatedly been warned about this exact scenario. They had F little excuse for not having a plan on how to handle this (the initialD evacuation, the post hurrican handling, and post flooding handling.)  I > Obviously that's not enough. "Generators can be provided too". That's a H > little to vague to be of much worth. That's like saying, "Water can be# > pumped out. Levees can be fixed."   H vague ? They had no problems providing generators to power some pipelineG that feeds the east coast.  Couldn't they have brough generators to the ? Superdome to provide some basic services for the people there ?   E They chose to evacuate by bus, a slow tedious process that would take B many many days. Just because you've made the decision that you areG evacuating the superdome doesn't mean that you need not take care ofthe E people still stuck in there. I get the feeling that the authorities , G once they decided that that the superdome neede to be evacuated, washed F their hands from the issue , declared it closed and moved to somethingC else, forgetting all the people stuck in there (and forgetting that C people in the city would congregate there to catch a bus out of the N city, and thus not reduce the need for food/water/hygiene, power, lights etc.)   Look at the difference between:   H "We are going to evacuate the 23,000 people from superdome and send them t the astrodome by bus"    and   E "We will move the 23,000 from the superdome to other cities, but this F will take time, and until it is complete, we will bring generators andM additional supplies to the superdome to make people's lives a little better."   E Furthermore: the city should have also added something like  "We will A also be providing regular bus service out of New Orleans from the F following pickup points where we ask citizens are asked to congregate C (followed by list of points within the city where buses will pickup E people), food and water will be made availahble at those points while  people wait for the buses..     # That is what I mean by leadership.    ; > Fine. Maybe a small portion of the city is okay. So what?   F You are using the word "small" without having facts. Why do not of theH media and satellite picture providers show the greater metropolitan area
 from above ?    F The port is dry and undamaged. Airport is functional and is being usedE (finally). I bet there are a lot of parks that could be used to setup G tent cities to house people. Remember that even when the water recedes, D when people come back to survey the damage to their homes, they will need to be housed temporarily.    / > Again you conclude much based on very little.   S Which is another flaw for the city. They need to provide more complete information.   H Let me ask you this: does the mayor of New Orleans have any jurisdictionC over area that are not flooded ? Does he have jurisdiction over the 8 airport for instance ? Or is that in a different city ?   E If he only has jurisdiction over the flooded area and the non flooded D areas are outside his jurisdiction, is there anyone who can speak onF behalf of the whole metro area ?  The media seem to be assuming the NO4 mayor is speaking on behalf of the whole metro area.  G In the above scenario, of course the mayor woudln't even be speaking of ? restoring electrical power, water, gas since very little of his H jurisdiction is able to see such services. But what about other areas ofF the metro area ? Shouldn't the media be showing whatever work is goingB on there to restore services and give lots of hope that things are improving ?     @ Giuliani had leadership role over the whole metro area, and even> coordinated with new jersey towns. Is the mayor of new orleans. coordinating with mayors of adjoining cities ?   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2005 21:11:01 -0700 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) C Message-ID: <1125807061.819268.153620@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Dave Froble wrote: > AEF wrote: > > Dave Froble wrote: > >  > >>AEF wrote: [...big snip...] > >  > E > All I'll say is that the Air Force could only be late, if they were F > tasked with an operation.  Until the jets flew into the WTC, the AirL > Force was, as far as I know, not tasked with protecting against airliners.  D OK. Point taken. But they were late, but once they launched I'm sureF they performed as well as they could. The element of surprise is worthD quite a lot, of course, and our chain of command wasn't fast enough,B and, of course, we really weren't prepared. Sorry, I didn't intendF blame the Air Force for all this. My chioce of words was poor. (Yes, ID know it's hard to believe, but I do make a mistake from time to time (!) :-)    > E > As you state, once they were called upon, they did show up.  Rather I > quickly.  Don't know the closest available aircraft, that would be able E > to respond quickly.  Say it was the F-15s from the base outside DC. J > What's the distance to NYC?  300 miles or so?  Best they can do is 1,650  ? More like 200 to 250 miles. By air it's probably closer to 200.   G > MPH, and that's clean, on burner.  Clean means no missles to use when E > they get there.  On burner means that they probably are out of fuel  > before they get there.  ? Aren't there any bases in NJ? Billions of dollars spent on such E equipment and they run out of fuel in 300 miles? From NJ it would, of ) course, be much less than even 200 miles.   F > I just think that saying they were late, regardless of what you were4 > implying, is an underserved slap at the Air Force.  B *** Originally, I was just saying "they were late" as the point of inevitablity. ***   G You turned this into something much more. You claimed, by putting words @ into my mouth, that I was blaming the Air Force for the 9/11 WTC@ disaster. So I was just trying to say that I was just saying, orC blaming them (as I unfortunately wrote), for being late. The pilots D almost certainly did as well as could reasonably be expected and the fault lies elsewhere.   F I never meant to slap the Air Force. I shouldn't have written "blamingE them for being late". I was trying to distinguish between causing the E disaster and arriving too late to minimize it. My choice of words was  poor and I apologize.   C Maureen Dowd writes in The NY Times today, "Who on earth could have D known that Osama bin Laden wanted to attack us by flying planes intoD buildings? Any official who bothered to read the trellis of pre-9/11G intelligence briefs." If this really holds, then we probably could have 7 been better prepared had the right people taken notice.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2005 21:35:22 -0700 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) C Message-ID: <1125808522.466993.307840@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > AEF wrote:H > > Don't be ridiculous. It is the Air Force's job to defend the nation. > I > Yep. And even on 9-11, they were ready. Aren't they in a constant state G > of readiness ? It is a question of them being given orders. Until the & > orders come, they don't take action. > K > > to JF's post about comparing the NO and NYC disasters and was trying to / > > show that Giuliani wasn't always in control  > G > There is a big difference here. 9-11 itself happened very quickly and G > without warning.  At first, they didn't even know how big a plane had I > hit the north tower.  So the mayor couldn't have called the airforce to J > shoot down the second one because he didn't even know there was a second, > one.  And this was happening in real time. > J > New Orleans happened in slow motion, over a period of days from the timeG > weatherman started to say New Orleans was to be a target for Katrina.   C Now your getting off point by going into poor planning. Suppose the D mayor did evacuate NO and suppose that the levees didn't break? WhatE then? Admittedly, that's always a difficult call. Volcanologists have E to deal with such things. You don't want to appear to be crying wolf. G And I don't recall much discussion about the levees breaking until they & did. Could be I just missed that part.  G > > on roofs without food, water, and electricity. And he didn't have a + > > Superdome disaster to deal with either.  > 2 > The superdome "disaster" was the mayor's making.- > 	1- Not providing transportation for people ; > 	2- Not beginning evacuation as soon as storm had passed.  > E > The arguments that the structure was well suited to protect tens of J > thousands of people for a few hours was sound. But FOR A FEW HOURS. ThatF > buys you time to arrange for something else after the imminent storm > danager has passed.   G Apparently, the mayor didn't anticipate the levees not holding. Had the 0 levees held, things would have been MUCH better.   > F > It doesn't take einstein to know that a stadium cannot cater to thatD > many people for long durations (lack of showers for one thing, andH > insufficient toilets). A facility can be designed to hold a very largeI > number of people for 3-4 hours, but when you hold them for more than 24 G > hours, toilet requirements rise significantly because guys won't just  > use urinals.  + Guys won't use urinals after 24 hours pass?   H > What I find interesting is the issue of generators. The montreal ForumL > had a stanley cup final the night qu=E9bec went dark due to unusual auroraH > borealis up north which induced currents into long transmissions lines > and tripped the network. > J > The forum continued to operate, and so did the networks broadcasting theG > game. Big lights and all, as well as the rtefrigiration units to keep H > the ice. (it was in may).  They opened all doors at street level (withE > guards) and opened traps on ceiling of structure to provide natural L > ventilation. (the heat from lights up above would cause a fairly big air = current. > G > So I am somewhat perplexed that a facility the city knew was the best B > structure to house people durring a hurricane wouldn't have been& > equipped with sufficient generators. >  > E > > comparable. I think JF is being unduly harsh on the NO mayor both K > > because the disasters are NOT COMPARABLE and because not all mayors can  > > be Giuliani. >  > % > Ok, let me rephrase my "complaint".  > H > Giuliani was providing factual updates to his people, what was workingJ > ,what wasn't working, whaty they were working on, what problems they areE > having and how they were going to fix this. He gave confidence that G > things would improve.  He appeared to be on top of things and to know E > what was going on and inspired confidence that the authorities were ' > taking actions that were intelligent.  > G > The NO mayor is complaining about everything going wrong, complaining J > about not getting troups in in time, complaining about this and that andI > isn't mentioning what works, what doesn't work. He just doesn't inspire   C How do you know he isn't informing people or trying to? He could be G doing that on radio stations and you'd never know it from watching your  news channels on TV.  H > confidence that the city is on top of things and has a plan to restore! > the city to order and function.   A Giuliani didn't need all this help once the towers came down. Our G Naitonal Guard wasn't largely tied up in the other disaster, Iraq. What G help did arrive was the Feds advising on how to put out the fire in the @ pit of the complex using some special foam or something. The NYCG firefighers resisted for a long time. I don't know how that finally got 	 resolved.   H > There have been plenty of studies down over the years about what wouldG > happen should the levies break. The mayor should be aware of this and J > should have been able to provide more detailed plans to the media on how> > restoring the city would work (various progess "steps" etc).  ? Yes, planning was poor. But there was some poor planning in the G response to the WTC disaster also. Radios didn't work in the tower, for B one thing. Lack of cooperation between police and firefighters was another.  J > Alan Grieg says that the mayor had been warning CNN about the conventionH > centre since very early on. I had not heard of this. And I listened toH > CNN.  The FEMA director hadn't heard of this and he no only listens toG > CNN (like most politicians in Washington), but should also be getting ! > reports from the city directly.   C I am not familiar with the convention center issue, so I'll refrain 
 from comment.    > A > The *impression* I have is that the mayor is in his home with a H > telephone and doesn't dare go out. If the town hall is inaccessible byJ > car because water is too high, then he should have moved the "town hall"G > to another location where it is dry, generators can be setup and make E > damned sure he gave a very clear impression that the city was still I > operating (as opposed to all city administrators having bailed and left C > the stranded people to fend for themselves until the army arrives G > whenever it feels like it), and that they were working hard to rescue # > people from the damaged sections.    Can't comment on this either.  >  > I > It could be that the mayor is expremenly competent, but he doesn't come : > across as such. And that is part of being a good leader.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 01:23:48 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: Hp Technology forum (New Orleans sept 12-15) , Message-ID: <431A84B5.94534D27@teksavvy.com>  
 AEF wrote:E > Now your getting off point by going into poor planning. Suppose the A > mayor did evacuate NO and suppose that the levees didn't break?   H In this particular case, the devastating destruction east of New OrleansH (because Katrina veered a vit east at last minute) would still have been? a reminder of what could have happened in terms of destruction.   G And had troups beem mobilised beforehand, they could have stayed in the H region until water levsl in the lake/river were low enough and then goneF home. They could have also sent some to patrol the evacuated city. AndS they would still have needed to ensure anyone still in city had basic food/medical.     I > And I don't recall much discussion about the levees breaking until they ( > did. Could be I just missed that part.  G You missed that part big time. It was feared that the ocean swell would H overwhelm the levees. What they didn't discuss is the flow of water fromH the heavy rains overwhelming the levees not necessarily immediatly sicne5 it takes time for water to flow down into the region.   H However, studies made years ago had all outlined those dangers. This wasF no surprise. And the fact that the mayor ordered evacuation of city is@ also an indiaction that they really did fear the major flooding.  I > Apparently, the mayor didn't anticipate the levees not holding. Had the 2 > levees held, things would have been MUCH better.  H It would still have been quite a disaster in Mississipi. And there wouldC still have been large power outages in lousiana.  The media however H wouldn't focus their attention onto downtown new orleans and may instead@ be shwoing buldozers clearling streets from falled branches, and# electrical workers restoring power.   - > Guys won't use urinals after 24 hours pass?   E OK, let me be more graphic. In a 2-3 hours sports game, most men will D need only to use urinals. But stay over 24 hours, and they'll need aF toilet. Facilities in stadiums are sized with users only staying thereF for a few hours and only a small percentage needing to use toilet. ButE for 24 or more hours, 100% of men will need toilets. And if you doN't ; have enough to cater to 23,000 people that causes problems.     E > How do you know he isn't informing people or trying to? He could be I > doing that on radio stations and you'd never know it from watching your  > news channels on TV.  G Perhaps. Nevertheless, a mayor wishing to inform a population would use D all means possible. During our long power outage in 1998, one day, IE walked a few km to the hardware store which had power and was able to H watch TV (they had a whole bunch of TV setup) and got to see maps of theG affeted areas. But it was the same speech as we would be hearing on the A radio (except on radio you wouldn't see the maps shown during the   regularly held news conferences)  G The Hydro Qubec news conferences were listened to by everyone as often  as they occured.  A Granted perhaps BBC and CNN didn't cover them. But the candian TV E networks covered them, and would always show summary on evening news.   C > Giuliani didn't need all this help once the towers came down. Our E > Naitonal Guard wasn't largely tied up in the other disaster, Iraq.    C Sorry, I don't accept the Iraq invasion as an excuse. Right now, it G doesn't seem like the USA has any problem finding troups to go into the F disaster area. So they are available. The question is that they didn'tH begin the staging/deployment ASAP upon realisng there was a cat 5 comingC onto a major city. (it downgraded to 4 only in the wee hours before  hitting land).   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2005 18:19:13 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance + Message-ID: <3nu7p1F3c8ihU1@individual.net>   0 In article <11hjeas6sqkf17e@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  > E > When VMS migrated to a 64 bit system, IA-32 became a useless idea.  I > Before then, well, I'm not convinced.  People who make devices for PCs  C > write their own drivers for windows.  Some may write drivers for  G > Linux/Unix, I don't really know.  Without good drivers, VMS on IA-32  D > wouldn't be competitive.  Would you want to have to move graphics > > drivers into the kernel, with more crashes than windoz gets?  D Just like VMS on Alpha does n ot support every generic PCI card, theF same could have been true here.  Pick a set of devices that are needed3 and do what VMS users do and limit support to them.   K > With the emulators, you can have such.  Don't know about Charon-VAX, but  G > the rest aren't packaged for a novice.  Never get anywhere that way,  1 > but, perhaps getting anywhere was never a goal.   E Packaging is probably the smallest part of the game.  FreeBSD is much F better than and has more effort put into it than RedHat, but RedHat isE easier to install.  It just takes somone with the interest to package  it properly.  J > There would still be the hugh issue of device drivers.  Not saying that B > cannot be solved, but without a good solution, you'd still have 3 > 'supported' devices, and nothing else would work.   F Or, you could use the VirtualPC attack.  Virtual PC presents a certainC set of devices to the user (interestingly, they chose the DEC Tulip C for network!) and hides the real devices leaving management of them G to Windows.  The same could be done with a HAL that recognizes and uses H Windows class drivers while always presenting one set of devices to VMS.   > 8 > Possibly USB would be part of a solution.  Don't know.  C USB is not all it's cracked up to be.  I hqve some real war stories = I can tell you about USB's shortcomings if you want sometime.    > K >> Linux came out of nowhere because it was available on the 8086. Versions H >> on other platforms are small niches and are insignificant compared to >> Linux on 8086 numbers.  > B > Not all devices work on Linux.  It's not as good as you suggest.  C Plus, and this should come as  no surprise to people here, the only @ thing Linux really has going for it is marketing.  There are anyB number of more technically proficient Unix like OSes available butA none that markets like Linux.  As for VMS and devices, if VMS was B a serious player in the game, everybody would provide a deiver forD their devices.  But, we al know who's fault it is that they are not.   bill    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 15:32:16 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: Itanium Solutions Alliance , Message-ID: <4319FA3F.37B0456D@teksavvy.com>   re: device drivers on 8086  F It is a given that VMS couldn't use the widows device drivers, neither can Linux for that matter.  D It is a given that VMS would have to have its own rock solide device( drivers for selected classes of devices.  G But it is also given that VMS currently supports PCI bus, and that IA64 5 is moving towards 8086 system architecture (by 2007).   D Also consider that current device driver support on IA64 is minimal,& since VMS is still an infant on IA64.   D If/when they decide to port VMS to the 8086, of course device driver; support will initially be limited. That is to be expected.    G However, once there, it can grow. Both in market and in device drivers. A Why ? because once on th 8086, there won't be much question about : porting to future platforms, not for a long while anyways.  B The software availability of Windows on the 8086 won't benefit VMSG directly. But it is what is preventing Intel from dumping the 8086, and ? that makes the 8086 a rock solid platform on which to grow VMS.   D VMS has no growth potential on IA64. (in terms of installed base andC market potential). They may be able to brag about sales growth from ? quarter to quarter, but that doesn't necessarily translate into H installed base, and definitely not into market potential for ISVs askingF how many VMS customers are still spending money to buy new software on their remaining VMS machines.   ? Moving VMS to the 8086 would once again open up a wide world of B opportunities for VMS and give it access to low cost machines fromG laptops to datacenter servers. (I didn't state it would give it instant H access, it would have to be tested/qualified but it would still be a far( bigger potential than sticking to IA64).    D Rob Brown and other HP apologists may be pointing out how great IA64C promises to be in its remaining high end niche. But that doesn't do H anything to help VMS grow.  Cray and CDC may have been the kings in high< performance computing in the 1980s, but where are they now ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 17:18:21 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 0 Subject: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64, Message-ID: <431A1314.F018D2CE@teksavvy.com>  g http://news.com.com/Microsoft+limits+Longhorns+Itanium+job+duties/2100-1006_3-5846226.html?tag=nefd.top     C Microsoft's Longhorn Server version of Windows will support Intel's H Itanium processor, but only for a limited number of higher-end jobs, the! software company said on Friday.   ...   B "Longhorn Server for Itanium won't run all workloads," a Microsoft# representative said in a statement.   G The operating system is designed for three specific types of higher-end G tasks: databases, custom jobs and line-of-business applications such as C accounting and customer relationship mananagment, or CRM. Among the ? tasks it won't be able to handle are "fax server, Windows Media B Services, Windows SharePoint Services, file and print servers, and& others," Microsoft said in a bulletin.  F Microsoft's move is the latest illustration of the less-ambitious role projected for Itanium.     ...   F The proscribed role for Longhorn on Itanium dovetails with Microsoft'sE plans for an earlier server operating system, Windows Server 2003 R2, L which is due out at the end of this year and won't be available for Itanium.   ...   G Novell's Suse Linux Enterprise Server and Red Hat Enterprise Linux also C run on Itanium. And Hewlett-Packard, which began the development of C Itanium and cooperated for years with Intel on the chip, offers its E HP-UX version of Unix for Itanium, as well as its OpenVMS and NonStop  operating systems.   ---------------------      HEY  ! VMS GOT MENTIONED !    H But not that great when you consider that VMS is being asosciated with a
 sinking ship.   > The message from Microsoft to ISVs is very clear: don't botherG developping on IA64 for windows sicne there will only be 3 applications 5 that will run on it and very little market potential.   E I think that Longhorn on IA64 will be the last version of Windows for C IA64. Microsoft is probably constractually obligated to release it.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 00:05:14 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>4 Subject: Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64< Message-ID: <_SqSe.11356$hv5.6340@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   JF Mezei wrote:      > G > I think that Longhorn on IA64 will be the last version of Windows for E > IA64. Microsoft is probably constractually obligated to release it.   G Hahahahaha. Microsoft contractually obliged? What happened - they sack   all the lawyers or something?   F  > Microsoft's Longhorn Server version of Windows will support Intel'sG  > Itanium processor, but only for a limited number of higher-end jobs,    Zero is a limited number.   E  > "Longhorn Server for Itanium won't run all workloads," a Microsoft &  > representative said in a statement.  , If it ran none that statement would be true.  J  > The operating system is designed for three specific types of higher-endJ  > tasks: databases, custom jobs and line-of-business applications such asF  > accounting and customer relationship mananagment, or CRM. Among the  ' Designed for makes no promises forward.   B  > tasks it won't be able to handle are "fax server, Windows MediaE  > Services, Windows SharePoint Services, file and print servers, and )  > others," Microsoft said in a bulletin.   4 "Among the tasks it won't be able to run." Please...   --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 06:14:55 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> 4 Subject: Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64= Message-ID: <431a74be$0$78279$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    JF Mezei wrote: i > http://news.com.com/Microsoft+limits+Longhorns+Itanium+job+duties/2100-1006_3-5846226.html?tag=nefd.top @ > The message from Microsoft to ISVs is very clear: don't botherI > developping on IA64 for windows sicne there will only be 3 applications 7 > that will run on it and very little market potential.   H No, It means that Windows on IA64 will stay confined to the niche it is B currently confined to.  The current Windows on IA64 is not a full F Windows.  It lacks many of the features used by desktop users, and M$ I says it is going to stay that way.  That also means that Windows on IA64  I is in a position, where it could get killed should x86-64 start to scale   to large machines.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 01:05:25 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 4 Subject: Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64, Message-ID: <431A8067.272896FC@teksavvy.com>   Karsten Nyblad wrote: C > currently confined to.  The current Windows on IA64 is not a full G > Windows.  It lacks many of the features used by desktop users, and M$ J > says it is going to stay that way.  That also means that Windows on IA64J > is in a position, where it could get killed should x86-64 start to scale > to large machines.  H Makes one wonder if Intel/HP should be allowed to advertise "Windows" asG being available on IA64.  Perhaps they should be forced to qualify this M with "A subset of Windows" or a "variant of Windows" runs on that IA64 thing.    ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 21:57:14 +0000 (UTC)7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) E Subject: Re: Newbie - Booting Alphaserver 4/266 and third party disks ( Message-ID: <dfd67q$o9e$2@pcls4.std.com>   healyzh@aracnet.com writes:   ' >Steven Falvey <steve@ddt.co.nz> wrote: & >> setting affinity to the primary CPU >> jumping to bootstrap codeI >> %APB-F-BADSYSROOT, System root [SYSA.] does not exist, check bootflags   D >I'm suspecting that your problem is that the system was setup for a: >non-standard [SYSA.], and the new install created [SYS0.]  L >I forget the exact syntax to correct this, based on the first part above it >might be as simply as:    >b dka0 -flags 0  L >However, in the long run you'll most likely want to change the default your; >SRM console has set from "A" to "0" (note that is a zero).   : Sounds like the system was originally set up to boot Unix.  G Do this at the >>> prompt to change the default boot flags to something 
 VMS likes:   >>> set boot_osflags 0,0  D Change the first 0 to a different number if you are using a non zero8 root.  If you don't know what that means, leave it at 0.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 06:49:25 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com $ Subject: Re: NTP Under UCX Questions- Message-ID: <877jdx3gy2.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   8 "Alex Daniels" <AlexNoSpamDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes:  + > <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message  " >> VMS really needs a current ntp.  E > The NTP port in TCP/IP Services 5.5 (shipped with V8.2) is based on 
 > NTP 4.2.0 ( H > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82FINAL/tcprn/TCPIP055_RELEASE_NOTES.PDF > ).  2 > NTP 4.2.0 is the current stable release of NTP (U > http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Main/SoftwareDownloads#Current_versions_of_NTP_Download  > )    Yah, thank you TCP group...    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 06:47:53 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com " Subject: Re: RD drive unit numbers- Message-ID: <87br393h0m.fsf@prep.synonet.com>    dooleys@snowy.net.au writes:   > Off Topic   D > I don't know if you are selling this or already bidding, but there@ > is an Alphaserver 2000 4/233 on ebay in Perth currently at $20    o > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Digital-Alphaserver-2000-4-233_W0QQitemZ5804069095QQcategoryZ11214QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem   @ You are ex-OTC AIR? E-mail back if so, I have some questions....   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 20:07:00 -0500 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> " Subject: Re: RD drive unit numbers2 Message-ID: <431A48B4.1030109@applied-synergy.com>   prep@prep.synonet.com wrote:8 > I can't find the old info on this, so does anyone know: > the correct unit numbers to set on RD drives for 4 and 65 > button BA23s and also World Box distribution cards.  >  > Ditto for floppies.   E For systems with distribution cards, set the drives to DS3 (numbered  ! from 1) or DS2 (numbered from 0).    --  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.493 ************************