1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 09 Sep 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 503       Contents: Anyone need MultiNet manuals? # Re: ARCH_NAME nomenclature question # Re: ARCH_NAME nomenclature question # Re: ARCH_NAME nomenclature question E Re: creating/manipulating user accounts programmatically from Windows  Re: DCPS port 9100 printing  EFI/console general question HP Forum location  Re: HP Forum location  Re: HP Forum location ( RE: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( RE: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13( Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code Re: Macro code+ Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64 + Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64 + Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64 + Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64 + Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64 + RE: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64  Prior version support  RE: Prior version support  Re: Prior version support  Re: Security - John the Ripper1 Re: tcp connection that looks like a serial port? 1 Re: tcp connection that looks like a serial port? 1 Re: tcp connection that looks like a serial port?  Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2005 13:50:41 -0700 ) From: "doub1eedge" <doub1eedge@yahoo.com> & Subject: Anyone need MultiNet manuals?B Message-ID: <1126212641.085736.60460@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  # Posted this to comp.sys.dec on 9/4.  Posting here just in case.  F I have a set of old TGV MultiNet/OpenVMS manuals if anyone wants/needs them.    Publish Date - Oct. 1995   5 seperate books:  Introduction to MultiNet Installation Guide& Messages and Troubleshooting Reference User's Guide Administrator's Reference   + For free, if you pay shipping ... (MN, USA)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:41:29 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>, Subject: Re: ARCH_NAME nomenclature question+ Message-ID: <4320DA39.DC4DE63E@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > JF Mezei wrote:  > >  > >>David J Dachtera wrote:  > >>< > >>>Well, dashes are legal - if confusing - in filespec.'s. > >>4 > >>But not for symbols. (and not sure for logicals) > >> > >>I > >>>...though exactly what string will be returned on OpenVMS for x86-64  > >>>remains to be seen. > >>" > >>I vote for "8086"  :-) :-) :-) > >  > > H > > Since that's an 8/16 bit processor, I'd vote for "X8664" or "I64" to! > > represent the 32/64 bit CPUs.  > >  > 5 > Since we're playing a naming game, with no meaning.  > C > AMD64.  What else?  Would there be an x86-64 if not for AMD?  Not G > likely.  Intel would be winding down IA-32 and telling us all that we  > WILL run on the itanic.   , Hhmmm... that sort of sounds like ... ALPHA!  H Let's see now... Alpha's down the drain, with VMS circling lazily around the edges of that eddy.   4 Will history repeat itself? ...and take VMS with it?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:38:27 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>, Subject: Re: ARCH_NAME nomenclature question+ Message-ID: <4320D983.CF537FEE@comcast.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > b > In article <431F95AF.F6AAFBDE@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > > J > > At some point, stock holders may demand that Intel stop stuffing money > > down that rathole. > H >    Right, just like stockholders are demanding that Sun give up SPARC,  G SPARC doesn't represent decades of promises, vaporware and ... well, no A need to repeat what we've all heard and read so many times in the * various trade media and financial reports.  9 >    HP give up PCs, and Microsoft sell quality software.   H That'd break Micro$lop! Too many other providers in the market who wouldF keep the shelves well stocked with stuff that "sort of" works - maybe.  G >    How many stockholders did it take to pressure Compaq into dropping  >    Alpha and merging with HP?   > Probably just a few influential people with a vested interest.  G >    Stockholders are interested only in the bottom line and haven't in D >    most cases got a clue as to what technology a technical company >    should be persuing.  @ ...except when it becomes a rathole down which their profits are  stuffed. Then, they care plenty!   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 22:46:27 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> , Subject: Re: ARCH_NAME nomenclature question0 Message-ID: <11i1tj4c57sa2a3@corp.supernews.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > Bob Koehler wrote: > b >>In article <431F95AF.F6AAFBDE@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: >>I >>>At some point, stock holders may demand that Intel stop stuffing money  >>>down that rathole.  >>H >>   Right, just like stockholders are demanding that Sun give up SPARC, >  > I > SPARC doesn't represent decades of promises, vaporware and ... well, no C > need to repeat what we've all heard and read so many times in the , > various trade media and financial reports. >  > 9 >>   HP give up PCs, and Microsoft sell quality software.  >  > J > That'd break Micro$lop! Too many other providers in the market who wouldH > keep the shelves well stocked with stuff that "sort of" works - maybe. >  > G >>   How many stockholders did it take to pressure Compaq into dropping  >>   Alpha and merging with HP?  >  > @ > Probably just a few influential people with a vested interest. >  > G >>   Stockholders are interested only in the bottom line and haven't in D >>   most cases got a clue as to what technology a technical company >>   should be persuing. >  > B > ...except when it becomes a rathole down which their profits are" > stuffed. Then, they care plenty! >   E The only problem with that thought is that Intel is making plenty of  D money.  They have too many products, many fabs, and many customers. 7  From a bottom line perspective, Intel is a big winner.   F They won't dump the itanic because of any non-technical reasons.  Now K once they realize what a bad idea EPIC is, then some decisions may be made.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:46:05 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>N Subject: Re: creating/manipulating user accounts programmatically from Windows+ Message-ID: <4320DB4D.8815AA4F@comcast.net>    mabbuttg@yahoo.ca wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  >  > <snip> >  > > C > > In general, using a "toy" like Windows to automate a commercial L > > computing platform like VMS is rather frowned upon. Windows has too manyF > > issues with stability and security for many "regulation compliant" > > environments, also.  >  > I agree with the sentiment,   F Not sentiment, REQUIREMENT! In some of VMS's market niches, complianceE with government regulations goes well beyond Sarb/Ox, and even beyond  HIPAA!  - > but the other half of this equation is that E > we also have a decent-sized Windows environment, and therefore also E > create/modify Windows accounts on a regular basis as well.  So, I'm G > looking to create a "master" script/program that will prompt for both D > Windows and OpenVMS account information and create (and eventually > modify) accounts as needed.   E Have you considered a larger scale of authentication? Something (that ( can be) common to all your environments?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 18:16:02 GMT * From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>$ Subject: Re: DCPS port 9100 printing5 Message-ID: <080920051348540887%paul.anderson@hp.com>   C In article <1126200715.858371.302780@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, * <paul.santangelo@nssg.konicabt.com> wrote:  C > I'm trying to figure out the OpenVMS init command to setup a DCPS F > queue for an HP color printer printing to port 9100 with the NO_SYNC  > parameter, I just dont get it.  B First, are you sure you need NO_SYNC?  What printer are you using?  B If you need NO_SYNC, it's defined as a logical name that has to be defined when the queue starts.  5    $ DEFINE /SYSTEM /EXEC DCPS$queuename_NO_SYNC TRUE   B Then DCPS will skip the PostScript status query (control-T) at the beginning of the job.    Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 01:08:44 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: EFI/console general question , Message-ID: <432118C6.D0F44C87@teksavvy.com>  @ Just trying to understand relationship between CPU and the rest.  A When a chip built/designed, is it console/boot medium agnostic ?    C Does the CPU simply branch to a specific memory location when it is E powered on/halted ? If so, it is *theoretically* possible to create a G VAX board using already fabricated Microvax II chips, but put in an EFI A console ROM that would have been compiled for VAX and which would E support  Q-BUS access to a hard drive (so it can find the rest of the  EFI program/os loader) ?  G Could one go one more step and just replace the ROM chip on an existing D Microvax II board (example) with a new ROM containing an EFI consoleG written to support the MVII chip and the specific support chips on that  board ?   G Or are CPUs FABBed with specific support for a specific console program  ?     F When a CPU powers up or is halted (or whatever other signal), is it asG simple as simply branching to a predetermined physical memory address ? & Or is it far more involved than this ?    $ OK, different twist to the question:  H If intel makes a certain model Pentium chip, could HP build an EFI basedH motherboard/system while Dell would build a BIOS based console, but both using the same CPU  ?    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:08:00 -0400? From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <david@hpaq.net>  Subject: HP Forum location0 Message-ID: <11i0vcs7tg95n3b@corp.supernews.com>  B I wonder why HP has never used Savannah GA for one of these events  I Beautiful place (v. similar to how New Orleans used to be) warm, loads of  Hotels, restaurants   L Brand new HUGE conference centre on Hutchison Island - a 1 minute ferry ride. across the Savannah river to historic downtown This place is very large.   G If anyone wants info I know someone in the Savannah Gov responsible for  booking    DT   --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html   ) <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote in message K news:OF904E71B8.A134D6F5-ON85257074.00570595-85257074.0057DFC5@metso.com...  >  > Z http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/recovery/story/0,10801,104332,00.html > : > You may retrieve this story by entering QuickLink# 56550 >  > Has HP Forgotten?  >  > Opinion by Don Tennant > L > SEPTEMBER 05, 2005 (COMPUTERWORLD) - I couldn't have been the only one whoF > was stunned last Monday when Hewlett-Packard said it didn't yet knowG > whether its HP Technology Forum, slated to be held in New Orleans two  weeks J > later, would need to be postponed. That decision, HP said, would be made by > the end of the week. >  > F > It was kind of surreal to read that on the conference Web site whileJ > toggling to various news sites to read about and view the devastation ofI > New Orleans. "Are they kidding?" I asked myself. "The place is a wreck! L > There's absolutely no way they can go ahead with the conference. Why can't > they see that?"  >  > K > A bit of light was shed on the matter when someone forwarded me an e-mail L > that the HP Technology Forum team sent to registered attendees last MondayK > afternoon. The e-mail stated that HP was monitoring the situation closely K > and that a decision on the "direction" of the conference would be made on H > or before Sept. 2. Then came the kicker: "Please be cognizant that theI > media coverage of an event of this magnitude can be sensationalized for G > effect. While some areas have withstood damage, others may have not."  >  > J > Now, I have no problem with a healthy skepticism of media reports. We inD > the media have goofed up frequently enough to have brought that onC > ourselves. But I do have a problem with HP sending out a sweeping D > accusatory message under these circumstances. I have no idea how aF > journalist would even begin to go about sensationalizing this story. NobodyH > has been making this stuff up. We've seen the devastation with our ownG > eyes, and we've heard vivid firsthand accounts of the enormity of the H > hurricane's impact. Why trivialize all that with a suggestion of media > sensationalism?  >  > J > When I asked HP why it felt it necessary to convey an accusatory messageH > like that, Don Gentile, an HP PR director, e-mailed me an explanation. >  > J > He said the message I have quoted above "was generated quickly by the HPI > Americas events team just as the hurricane's initial impact on the Gulf L > Coast was being covered. They subsequently explained to us (in PR) that atJ > that time they didn't want attendees to hastily cancel their plans basedL > solely on media images -- we all remained 'cautiously optimistic' that NewL > Orleans had been spared the worst of it. Other areas were showing signs ofI > severe damage and it would be understandably easy to confuse locations. E > When the levee situation degraded within the city, they immediately  changed I > the message on the Web site and of course they sent out a second e-mail 3 > message postponing the event shortly thereafter."  >  > L > OK, but I still question the indecisiveness -- there simply was no need toJ > leave hundreds of users in limbo, even for a day. And it's irresponsible toK > couch the indecision in distrust of the media. I can't think of any other J > vendor that would have taken that tack. But then again, I can't think ofH > any other vendor that has such an awkward relationship with its users. >  > D > As we approach the four-year anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks,J > I can't help but flash back to the events of that horrendous day. No oneJ > accused the media of sensationalizing that story. Perhaps that's becauseK > there was no paralysis to explain. Tough decisions -- yes, even decisions H > as relatively inconsequential as canceling IT conferences -- were made' > boldly, promptly and with no excuses.  >  > C > Consider that one more very good reason to never forget that day.  >  >   > [signature image]  Don Tennant >  > I > Don Tennant is editor in chief of Computerworld. You can contact him at   > don_tennant@computerworld.com. >  >  >    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2005 18:27:18 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HP Forum location+ Message-ID: <3obe46F5116gU3@individual.net>   0 In article <11i0vcs7tg95n3b@corp.supernews.com>,B 	"David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <david@hpaq.net> writes:D > I wonder why HP has never used Savannah GA for one of these events > K > Beautiful place (v. similar to how New Orleans used to be) warm, loads of  > Hotels, restaurants   G I'll second that.  I only got to spend a day there, but I would love to / go back for a longer stay to just play tourist.    bill    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:25:21 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>  Subject: Re: HP Forum locationA Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050908122310.023f1298@raptor.psccos.com>   H Works for me.  My daughter, her husband, and our brand-new granddaughter3 live just outside Savannah at Fort Stewart...<grin>   L *BUT* - one thing I think that would weigh heavily for me for a choice wouldL be the availability of cheap and easy access to the place by air and withoutJ changing planes.  That's where a city like St Louis, NO, Ananheim and even Denver has a big advantage.   C At 12:08 PM 9/8/2005, David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote: C >I wonder why HP has never used Savannah GA for one of these events  > J >Beautiful place (v. similar to how New Orleans used to be) warm, loads of >Hotels, restaurants > M >Brand new HUGE conference centre on Hutchison Island - a 1 minute ferry ride / >across the Savannah river to historic downtown  >This place is very large. > H >If anyone wants info I know someone in the Savannah Gov responsible for >booking >  >DT  >  >--  >  >David B Turner  >Island Computers US Corp  >2700 Gregory St, Suite 180  >Savannah GA 31404 >Tel: 912 447 6622 X201  >Cell: 912 447 6622 X252 >Fax: 912 201 0402 >Email: dbturner@icusc.com >Web: http://www.islandco.com & >====================================== >All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions / >of sale. These should be read before ordering. & >http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html > * ><norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote in messageL >news:OF904E71B8.A134D6F5-ON85257074.00570595-85257074.0057DFC5@metso.com... > >  > > [ >http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/recovery/story/0,10801,104332,00.html  > > < > > You may retrieve this story by entering QuickLink# 56550 > >  > > Has HP Forgotten?  > >  > > Opinion by Don Tennant > > N > > SEPTEMBER 05, 2005 (COMPUTERWORLD) - I couldn't have been the only one whoH > > was stunned last Monday when Hewlett-Packard said it didn't yet knowI > > whether its HP Technology Forum, slated to be held in New Orleans two  >weeksL > > later, would need to be postponed. That decision, HP said, would be made >by  > > the end of the week. > >  > > H > > It was kind of surreal to read that on the conference Web site whileL > > toggling to various news sites to read about and view the devastation ofK > > New Orleans. "Are they kidding?" I asked myself. "The place is a wreck! N > > There's absolutely no way they can go ahead with the conference. Why can't > > they see that?"  > >  > > M > > A bit of light was shed on the matter when someone forwarded me an e-mail N > > that the HP Technology Forum team sent to registered attendees last MondayM > > afternoon. The e-mail stated that HP was monitoring the situation closely M > > and that a decision on the "direction" of the conference would be made on J > > or before Sept. 2. Then came the kicker: "Please be cognizant that theK > > media coverage of an event of this magnitude can be sensationalized for I > > effect. While some areas have withstood damage, others may have not."  > >  > > L > > Now, I have no problem with a healthy skepticism of media reports. We inF > > the media have goofed up frequently enough to have brought that onE > > ourselves. But I do have a problem with HP sending out a sweeping F > > accusatory message under these circumstances. I have no idea how aH > > journalist would even begin to go about sensationalizing this story. >Nobody J > > has been making this stuff up. We've seen the devastation with our ownI > > eyes, and we've heard vivid firsthand accounts of the enormity of the J > > hurricane's impact. Why trivialize all that with a suggestion of media > > sensationalism?  > >  > > L > > When I asked HP why it felt it necessary to convey an accusatory messageJ > > like that, Don Gentile, an HP PR director, e-mailed me an explanation. > >  > > L > > He said the message I have quoted above "was generated quickly by the HPK > > Americas events team just as the hurricane's initial impact on the Gulf N > > Coast was being covered. They subsequently explained to us (in PR) that atL > > that time they didn't want attendees to hastily cancel their plans basedN > > solely on media images -- we all remained 'cautiously optimistic' that NewN > > Orleans had been spared the worst of it. Other areas were showing signs ofK > > severe damage and it would be understandably easy to confuse locations. G > > When the levee situation degraded within the city, they immediately  >changedK > > the message on the Web site and of course they sent out a second e-mail 5 > > message postponing the event shortly thereafter."  > >  > > N > > OK, but I still question the indecisiveness -- there simply was no need toL > > leave hundreds of users in limbo, even for a day. And it's irresponsible >to M > > couch the indecision in distrust of the media. I can't think of any other L > > vendor that would have taken that tack. But then again, I can't think ofJ > > any other vendor that has such an awkward relationship with its users. > >  > > F > > As we approach the four-year anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist	 >attacks, L > > I can't help but flash back to the events of that horrendous day. No oneL > > accused the media of sensationalizing that story. Perhaps that's becauseM > > there was no paralysis to explain. Tough decisions -- yes, even decisions J > > as relatively inconsequential as canceling IT conferences -- were made) > > boldly, promptly and with no excuses.  > >  > > E > > Consider that one more very good reason to never forget that day.  > >  > > " > > [signature image]  Don Tennant > >  > > K > > Don Tennant is editor in chief of Computerworld. You can contact him at " > > don_tennant@computerworld.com. > >  > >  > >    ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:43:36 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> 1 Subject: RE: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB6B2676@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon Clubley=20: > [mailto:clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP]=20! > Sent: September 8, 2005 1:15 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 3 > Subject: RE: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13  >=20 > In article=20 @ > <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB6B2657@tayexc19.americas.cpqc5 > orp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes:  > >=20G > > Application and database rationalization (including SAP, PeopleSoft = > > etc), integration, migration, upgrades, consolidation,=20  > virtualization, : > > data warehousing, enterprise architecture, storage,=20 > networking are allA > > prime IT "infrastructure" projects, so all Mark was saying=20  > is that heA > > thought the very high level BPR stuff would not be a prime=20  > focus for HP. A > > For those solutions requiring BPR as a component, HP would=20  > use one of+ > > its partners to jointly make proposals.  > >=20( > > Imho, that's perfectly fine with me. > >=20 >=20? > That's fine and it's nice to know that he apparently meant=20  > BPR, but someone: > needs to tell him that for future reference "business=20 > processing" does NOT, > mean BPR to many computer professionals... >=20G > My other comments about HP thinking that Dell is the competition (and = > the concerns that it will have on HP innovation and R&D)=20  > still stand however. >=20@ > BTW, are you absolutely certain that Hurd was talking about=20
 > BPR and not  > high end business computing ?  >=20 > Simon. >=20 > --=20       Did I call Mark to clarify this?   No.   H However, HP has been back and forth on this for awhile (remember the PWCD buy HP almost made?), and imho, Mark was simply clarifying BPR as an% area he saw HP not being focussed on.   F Think about it for a second. Companies buy computers to solve businessD problems. That's business processing. Linux, Windows, OpenVMS, UNIX,9 MVS, NetWare etc are all used for business processing.=20   G Does anyone really think all of these would no longer be areas of focus ) for HP since they do business processing?    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2005 18:24:09 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 + Message-ID: <3obdu9F5116gU2@individual.net>   ; In article <rs_Te.8278$k22.6867@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, + 	Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:  >  >  > Main, Kerry wrote: > B >> You are missing the point as to how these things normally flow. > G > I am intentionally missing the point on how someone *not* in the BPR  C > business would want them to flow. IBM presumably think their BPR  / > business will dove-tail with the IT business.  > J > I know all about business procurement processes thank you very much. In H > reality many I have been involved in were destined one way right from 9 > the start - then comes the (err...) creative paperwork.   = Been there, done that.....  On both sides of the table.   :-)    bill    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:08:09 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 + Message-ID: <43208C16.EC25A5E@teksavvy.com>    "Main, Kerry" wrote:I > BPR market is extremely, extremely tough and most of those in that game ! > have been struggling big time.      G This may be true. But Hurd didn't use "Business Process Re-engineering"  in his speech.    D he used "Business processing".  And said "a lot of IBM's business isC business processing". One could easily interpret his statement with  "enterprise computing".   H Fact is that Hurd made a statement that can be interpreted in many ways.    H The one statement which is fairly precice his his desire to turn HP intoF an infrastructure company.  So hardware, definitely. Operating systems< probably. Middleware and system management perhaps. End user applications, unlikely.   ! That is the way I interpreted it.   G Mr Main may have some inside scoop due to internal communications being F more precise. But it does matter how the press and customers interpretF Hurd's public statements since that is the only info they are getting.  A The message about IBM I understood is that HP will stop trying to F outgrow IBM. Remember Compaq bought Digital and Tandem in an attemp toH grow to IBM's size. Carly bought Compaq to grow to IBM's size and really+ reach into the enterprise computing market.   E So now HP will essentially stop competing against IBM, stop trying to E grow its consulting/support/outsourcing business to beat IBM. The big B question is how enterprise computing infrastructure fits in this.   E Does this mean that HP will stop the truly big iron and focus more on G midrange and low end servers ? I don't know. And we'll probably have to   wait until December to find out.    E When you look at the Oracle Grid server TV Ads in the USA being aired F every few minutes, it becomes hard to see if Tandem really have such aH big future.  HP-UX is under pressure from Linux. And unlike HP-UX, LinuxG hasn't doesn't have a platform transition ahead for customers (remember > that few customers have migrated to that IA64 thing). HP-UX is3 especially vulnerable due to its endianness issue.    E When you look at a move to the 8086 down the road, it might make more E sense to resurrect Tru64 on the 8086 and then just make it compatible H with HP-UX in terms of system management and interfaces to applications.G Essentially do what Apple did when it moved from MacOs classic to OS-X.   D So it seems to me that the long future of the "enterprise" operatingF systems at HP may not be so bright. So not sure how much emphasis HurdF would be putting in them. (Doesn't mean that they would be canned now,D as long as tyey are profitable, there is no reason to can them). ButD they may not be getting large influx of capital for new development.    : I think HP is more likely to spend R&D money on developingF non-refillable ink cartridges than to give the TCPIP Services money toF restructure the product to move all its procedures out of  SYS$MANAGER
 for instance.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:31:49 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 , Message-ID: <432091A0.9434CF35@teksavvy.com>   Tom Linden wrote:  > D > Good time to short HPQ.  Very disappointing.  "You lead, follow orJ > get out of the way" Patton.  How on earth does he think they can compete$ > with Dell?  Look at their margins.    > Ok, let me speculate big time her. Lets assume for the sake ofF discussion that the decision to ditch IA64 is already made and that HP. will focus solely on the 8086, just like Dell.  F In such an environment, HP has the systems building expertise, as wellH as software portions (OS, network management etc) expertise and productsH to build true enterprise class 8086 based servers, Dell doesn't. HP alsaF has (or had ?) local support infrastruture around the world which is a5 requirement to sell into the real enterprise market.     HP also has storage systems.  C HP may have difficulty competing against Dell in the low end. But I 5 think that they have a big advantage at the high end.   H By focusing on a single platform, HP may have an advantage over IBM with6 both 8086 and Power, and Sun with both Sparc and 8086.  A And if HP is chip manufacturer agnostic, it will be able to build D systems from the best available chips, whether from Intel or AMD. IfF Dell remains extremely religious about Intel, it will miss out on some cycles where AMD is the leader.   E Also, by putting all its resources into the 8086, HP would be able to F lower its overall costs, and may be able to cost justify some projectsF that were prevously not possible since volumes would now be higher forH such systems. (remember that right now, the HP market is very fragmentedL between the 8086, Pa-Risc, Alpha and IA64 (as well as some MIPS for Tandem).   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:45:18 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 ; Message-ID: <ix0Ue.11233$fb.4744@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    JF Mezei wrote:    >  > C > And if HP is chip manufacturer agnostic, it will be able to build F > systems from the best available chips, whether from Intel or AMD. IfH > Dell remains extremely religious about Intel, it will miss out on some! > cycles where AMD is the leader.   I I think I saw recently speculation that Dell have been in talks with Sun  I about re-selling Sun mid-range SMP Opteron servers under the Dell label.  ' That would create quite a stir if true.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 17:06:58 -0600  From: Dan Notov <d9nn0@hp.com>1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 * Message-ID: <4320c414@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   Simon Clubley wrote:^ > In article <431FF265.AFB3BEAD@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > e >>http://news.com.com/Hurd+offers+just+a+glimpse+of+HP+strategy/2100-7342_3-5853144.html?tag=nefd.top  >>H >>Hurd provided a general overview if his plans. More details to come on& >>Dec 13th in a meeting with analysts. >> >>##C >>HP's overarching game plan, Hurd said, is to be an infrastructure J >>technology company, using its vast research and development resources toF >>collectively serve as a foil against competitor Dell. HP would leave > H >                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > < >>IBM, meanwhile, to focus on business processing, he said.  > = >   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  > I > I went and read this article just to make sure that JF was not omitting K > information to order to promote an agenda, and that Hurd really is quoted  > as saying that.  > : > Hurd really is quoted as saying that in the article. :-( >  > Goodbye VMS. :-( > H > Given the comment about Dell, it appears that he wants to turn HP into > a box shifter. >  > I >>"These are very different companies. A lot of IBM's work is in business J >>processing, whereas HP is about technology and R&D...We spend a lot moreI >>on R&D than Dell," Hurd said, in response to investors' questions about C >>whether HP felt sandwiched between the other two industry titans.  >  > I > This comment is unbelievable. How can you compare the kind of R&D that  L > HP does (or did) with the kind of stuff that Dell does. Also, what does heK > think IBM's R&D labs does (assuming that he even knows that they exist) ?  > 5 > HP Labs (Old version): Unique, innovative research. N > HP Labs (New version): Determining new keyboard buttons and product colours. >  > Simon. > : Missing the point. What MH alludes to is Business Process I (Re-)Engineering, which is some that HP/DEC/Compaq never engaged in. IBM  E acquired PWC, the consulting firm, that does this type of high-level   consulting.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 17:08:57 -0600  From: Dan Notov <d9nn0@hp.com>1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 * Message-ID: <4320c48a@usenet01.boi.hp.com>   Alan Greig wrote:  >  >  > Main, Kerry wrote: > =  > F >> Most Customers I have dealt with actually have separate vendors forK >> those doing BPR vs infrastructure as it provides some isolation from one * >> area inappropriately feeding the other. >  > K > So in a major SAP bid, say, HP will bid the box and someone else will do  I > the BPR. Who will you partner with? IBM who your CEO just said was the  ( > leader in the field? That should work. > F > I see what you are saying Kerry, but it still looks to me like Hurd  > wants to be a box shifter. >  > F Accenture, Deloitte & a host of others. Most of the time, these firms 4 are in there way before platform decisions are made.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:37:46 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 0 Message-ID: <11i1ihcp68ka7ce@corp.supernews.com>   Main, Kerry wrote:    J > "Mr. Customer - I know you have been in business 20+ years, but you needH > to totally change the way you do your business, change this, adopt newE > financial accounting processes, adopt new BOD governance processes, > > change the way your traders handle stock trades, etc etc .."  I Here's where I have a problem.  If someone has been in a business for 20  I years, then they know the business much better than any outsider.  While  G they may not know the details of how to do what they need, they pretty  G much know what they need.  Many times they know what could make things  ( better, but don't know how to get there.   So what to do.  H 1) Get good technical people who can be taught what you need to do, and A then provide some methods to do what you need in a better manner.    or  3 2) Get SAP, who tells you how to run your business.   F Many have chosen #2, because they were sold on the solution being the = best they could do.  Many have deep teeth marks on their ass.   I If a company is doing well in their business, it's because they can face  I the competition, many times because they have a better product/solution.  I   Giving up the advantage and becoming just another SAP me-too is a good   way to lose market share.   A What do the consultants and SAP care, they already got the money.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 20:03:31 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 , Message-ID: <4320D151.A3CE7AE3@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:K >> Here's where I have a problem.  If someone has been in a business for 20 C > years, then they know the business much better than any outsider.      On the surface yes, I agree.  C However, consider a new exec who doesn't have much support from his F peers/superiors for major changes. By having that expensive consultingN firm, it allows the corporation to force the changes on those reluctant execs.  H Another aspect: with the major software forcing corporatiosn to adapt to< the software intead of the other way around, those expensiveE consulktants SHOULD be good to recomment which software package would A best fit the corporation as well as provide a complete context of 4 changes that the corporation will need to implement.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:11:25 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> 1 Subject: RE: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB6B26A8@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----3 > From: Dave Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com]=20 ! > Sent: September 8, 2005 7:38 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 3 > Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13  >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: >=20 >=20B > > "Mr. Customer - I know you have been in business 20+ years,=20 > but you need= > > to totally change the way you do your business, change=20  > this, adopt new G > > financial accounting processes, adopt new BOD governance processes, @ > > change the way your traders handle stock trades, etc etc .." >=20= > Here's where I have a problem.  If someone has been in a=20  > business for 20=20< > years, then they know the business much better than any=20 > outsider.  While=20 ? > they may not know the details of how to do what they need,=20  > they pretty=20? > much know what they need.  Many times they know what could=20  > make things=20* > better, but don't know how to get there. >=20 > So what to do. >=20A > 1) Get good technical people who can be taught what you need=20  > to do, and=20 C > then provide some methods to do what you need in a better manner.  >=20 > or >=205 > 2) Get SAP, who tells you how to run your business.  >=20J > Many have chosen #2, because they were sold on the solution being the=20? > best they could do.  Many have deep teeth marks on their ass.  >=20? > If a company is doing well in their business, it's because=20  > they can face=20; > the competition, many times because they have a better=20  > product/solution.=20< >   Giving up the advantage and becoming just another SAP=20 > me-too is a good=20  > way to lose market share.  >=20C > What do the consultants and SAP care, they already got the money.  >=20 > --=20 6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596@ > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com > 170 Grimplin Road  > Vanderbilt, PA  15486  >=20  E Reminds me of the story of a hot dog vendor in New York that did very G well because he based his business on good Customer service, was always G talking to his customers and always gave them extra mustard and ketchup " if they asked. Business was great.  G His son goes off to college and after a few years gets his MBA. The son H comes back and tells his Dad that times are bad and that he needs to cutF back on the mustard and ketchup. Also, he needs to speed up the way heD does things and quit talking so much to his Customers or is business will soon drop drastically.   C So, the hot dog vendor follows his sons advice - after all, he is a  college grad and has an MBA.   Guess what ?  E His son was right - the vendors hot dog business dropped drastically.    :-)    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:00:12 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 0 Message-ID: <11i1ud05rcvvm6e@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > K >>>Here's where I have a problem.  If someone has been in a business for 20  >>C >>years, then they know the business much better than any outsider.  >  >  >  > On the surface yes, I agree. > E > However, consider a new exec who doesn't have much support from his H > peers/superiors for major changes. By having that expensive consultingP > firm, it allows the corporation to force the changes on those reluctant execs.  I If a company has been in business for 20 years, and they know how to run  G their business profitably, and better than the competition, then, if a  G new exec thinks he should make changes, without knowing how to run the  @ company, the first and only thing to do is to fire the new exec.  E Want to know how so many businesses go down hill?  It's when the new  B exec has the same last name as the company founder, who built the H company to what it is, and the new exec thinks that his last name makes E him knowledgable.  Wrong.  All the name does is give him power.  Too  F many times that power is used to change things that work, into things F that don't work.  It's also such types who will listen to the outside E consultants rather than the people who have been running the company   profitably.   & Been there, seen that, too many times.  H The idiots also get sold on windoz, cause it could play all their games.  B You might get the idea that I don't think much of the "never done ; anything, know everything" consultants, and you'd be right.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:09:24 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 / Message-ID: <11i1uu81t6lh29@corp.supernews.com>    Main, Kerry wrote: >>-----Original Message-----1 >>From: Dave Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com]  ! >>Sent: September 8, 2005 7:38 PM  >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 3 >>Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13  >> >>Main, Kerry wrote: >> >> >>? >>>"Mr. Customer - I know you have been in business 20+ years,   >> >>but you need >>: >>>to totally change the way you do your business, change  >> >>this, adopt new  >>F >>>financial accounting processes, adopt new BOD governance processes,? >>>change the way your traders handle stock trades, etc etc .."  >>; >>Here's where I have a problem.  If someone has been in a   >>business for 20 : >>years, then they know the business much better than any  >>outsider.  While  = >>they may not know the details of how to do what they need,   >>they pretty = >>much know what they need.  Many times they know what could   >>make things * >>better, but don't know how to get there. >> >>So what to do. >>? >>1) Get good technical people who can be taught what you need  
 >>to do, and  C >>then provide some methods to do what you need in a better manner.  >> >>or >>5 >>2) Get SAP, who tells you how to run your business.  >>H >>Many have chosen #2, because they were sold on the solution being the ? >>best they could do.  Many have deep teeth marks on their ass.  >>= >>If a company is doing well in their business, it's because   >>they can face 9 >>the competition, many times because they have a better   >>product/solution. : >>  Giving up the advantage and becoming just another SAP  >>me-too is a good   >>way to lose market share.  >>C >>What do the consultants and SAP care, they already got the money.  >> >>--  6 >>David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 >>Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596@ >>DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com >>170 Grimplin Road  >>Vanderbilt, PA  15486  >> >  > G > Reminds me of the story of a hot dog vendor in New York that did very I > well because he based his business on good Customer service, was always I > talking to his customers and always gave them extra mustard and ketchup $ > if they asked. Business was great. > I > His son goes off to college and after a few years gets his MBA. The son J > comes back and tells his Dad that times are bad and that he needs to cutH > back on the mustard and ketchup. Also, he needs to speed up the way heF > does things and quit talking so much to his Customers or is business > will soon drop drastically.  > E > So, the hot dog vendor follows his sons advice - after all, he is a  > college grad and has an MBA. >  > Guess what ? > G > His son was right - the vendors hot dog business dropped drastically.  >  > :-)    Yep!  H His son would have learned much more about the business if he worked in I it, and then expanded into another location, and worked in that location.   G The biggest thing that I learned about application design is, before I  G can design software to help run a company, I first have to know enough  ; about the company that I could run it without the software.   D It's real interesting the things that you learn when you learn what  makes a company work.   I There was the company in the lumber business, which at one time had some  H very favorable payment terms with their suppliers.  They had low prices B and moved plenty of product.  They didn't make any money from the H product.  They had a 60 day window from when they were paid, until they H had to pay their vendors, and the float is where all profits came from. I   Without knowing that, one could not place sufficient emphasis on ultra    fast turn-around of receivables.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:10:36 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Hurd to detail strategic plan Dec 13 , Message-ID: <43210B2A.B103B6C5@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:J > If a company has been in business for 20 years, and they know how to run> > their business profitably, and better than the competition,   F Look at Digital. They had been in business for a long time. But it hadG failed to adapt. Often, some older companies start to falter due to new G competition from younger more agile businesses, and it is at that point D that they call in the BPR expensive consultants to fix the company.   H But it could be argued that the solution isn't to bring in BPW expensiveD consultants, but rather replace people responsible for the mess with competant people.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:04:44 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  Subject: Re: Macro code 9 Message-ID: <Dc5Ue.21890$vN.730819@news20.bellglobal.com>   4 "John Reagan" <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote in message . news:GaDTe.11975$AB5.11408@news.cpqcorp.net... > Bob Koehler wrote:? >   I can understand writing transportable Macro-32, or Itanium D >>    Macro (OBTW, what is that called and do we get an assembler?), > I > Yes.  The native Itanium assembler is called IAS.  You can get it open  F > source from the Intel web site.  We took that source and made a few I > enhancements (like directives to set the module name and ident string;  M > generating some OpenVMS-specific ELF extensions, etc.).  That source and a  G > prebuilt IAS.EXE is on the OpenSource CDs that came with OpenVMS I64.  > K > That assembler accepts Itanium instructions, Itanium register names, etc.  > L > Now to echo Fred's warning, writing Itanium assembly has been shown to be B > very error prone.  Besides worrying about bundling and register H > dependencies (there is a auto-bundle mode to the assembler to make it K > easier), you also have to explicitly add unwind directives to your code.  J > If you don't add the directives, you'll find that things like exception M > handling can't unwind past your frame or traceback/debug will do the wrong   > thing with your code.  > L > Anybody writing more than 30 lines of Itanium assembly is either a genius  > or a fool. >  > --  
 > John Reagan 1 > HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  > Hewlett-Packard Company   = I feel the need to add a few word onto John Reagan's warning:   G In the 1950s, compiler salesmen would use the large volume of assembly  I language instructions generated as a metric of value (with bigger output  L being better). Today everyone knows it is the other way around with smaller 9 usually being better (unless we're unrolling loops etc.).   M In an earlier post in this thread, I compared the output of FORTRAN, Pascal,  H and C compliers on the Alpha platform with the C compiler producing the < smallest amount of code by a long shot. This is really neat.  I While C is not my language of choice, I believe it should always be used  H before assembler for 99% of most tasks today. Not only is this true for M large RISC systems but also small CISC systems. About 15 years ago I wrote a  L large application in assembler for a Motorola 68HC11F1.  About 10 years ago J my client asked to have it converted to C (I decided to use Whitesmiths-C L which is now COSMIC-C. I couldn't believe the result: the binary foot print > dropped by ~10% and it became much easier to modify and debug.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html     ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 22:26:41 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: Macro code , Message-ID: <4320F2D5.253EE737@teksavvy.com>   Neil Rieck wrote: H > In the 1950s, compiler salesmen would use the large volume of assemblyJ > language instructions generated as a metric of value (with bigger outputM > being better). Today everyone knows it is the other way around with smaller ; > usually being better (unless we're unrolling loops etc.).     H Back then, compiler salesmen were trying to convince potential customersD of the how much better it was to use a 2G versus assembler. "Look, 3E lines of cobol code will replace about 70 lines of asembler, think of 2 how much more efficient your programmers will be".  D Today, you are comparing 3G and 3G languages against each other, not against assembly language.    J > While C is not my language of choice, I believe it should always be used0 > before assembler for 99% of most tasks today.     E There are occasions where the programmer really needs to know how the @ compiler behaves because it isn't obvious. So you either look atG generated assembler code if you know that platform's assembly language, D or you write a small test program that garantees that your contructsD behave exactly as desired. (consider alignment issues, bit shifting, endianness etc.   A Because compilers now optimize code, and because much weird stuff ? happens to take advantage of the chip's architecture, generated + assembler may not be so easy to understand.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:14:20 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Macro code 0 Message-ID: <11i1v7dkqbg1c10@corp.supernews.com>   Neil Rieck wrote: 6 > "John Reagan" <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote in message 0 > news:GaDTe.11975$AB5.11408@news.cpqcorp.net... >  >>Bob Koehler wrote:? >>  I can understand writing transportable Macro-32, or Itanium  >>D >>>   Macro (OBTW, what is that called and do we get an assembler?), >>I >>Yes.  The native Itanium assembler is called IAS.  You can get it open  F >>source from the Intel web site.  We took that source and made a few I >>enhancements (like directives to set the module name and ident string;  M >>generating some OpenVMS-specific ELF extensions, etc.).  That source and a  G >>prebuilt IAS.EXE is on the OpenSource CDs that came with OpenVMS I64.  >>K >>That assembler accepts Itanium instructions, Itanium register names, etc.  >>L >>Now to echo Fred's warning, writing Itanium assembly has been shown to be B >>very error prone.  Besides worrying about bundling and register H >>dependencies (there is a auto-bundle mode to the assembler to make it K >>easier), you also have to explicitly add unwind directives to your code.  J >>If you don't add the directives, you'll find that things like exception M >>handling can't unwind past your frame or traceback/debug will do the wrong   >>thing with your code.  >>L >>Anybody writing more than 30 lines of Itanium assembly is either a genius  >>or a fool. >> >>--  
 >>John Reagan 1 >>HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  >>Hewlett-Packard Company  >  > ? > I feel the need to add a few word onto John Reagan's warning:  > I > In the 1950s, compiler salesmen would use the large volume of assembly  K > language instructions generated as a metric of value (with bigger output  N > being better). Today everyone knows it is the other way around with smaller ; > usually being better (unless we're unrolling loops etc.).  > O > In an earlier post in this thread, I compared the output of FORTRAN, Pascal,  J > and C compliers on the Alpha platform with the C compiler producing the > > smallest amount of code by a long shot. This is really neat. > K > While C is not my language of choice, I believe it should always be used  J > before assembler for 99% of most tasks today. Not only is this true for O > large RISC systems but also small CISC systems. About 15 years ago I wrote a  N > large application in assembler for a Motorola 68HC11F1.  About 10 years ago L > my client asked to have it converted to C (I decided to use Whitesmiths-C N > which is now COSMIC-C. I couldn't believe the result: the binary foot print @ > dropped by ~10% and it became much easier to modify and debug. >  > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.; > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   >  >   E Rarely would I use assembler code for something I can do in a higher  G level language.  However, what about when you want to do something the  = language won't do for you?  Then things begin to be fun.  :-)    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 20:48:57 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Re: Macro code ( Message-ID: <opswtgvvb0zgicya@hyrrokkin>  G On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:14:20 -0400, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    wrote:  H > Rarely would I use assembler code for something I can do in a higher  J > level language.  However, what about when you want to do something the  : > language won't do for you?  Then things begin to be fun.  G Actually only a few constructs need to be added to  3GL to completely    replace K the need for assembler.  I did it 20 years ago with PL/I and demonstrated    thatJ I could replace any module in Berkeley Unix 4.4 whether in assembler or C.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:16:14 -0500 % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org>  Subject: Re: Macro code 5 Message-ID: <slrndi234e.su4.usenet@zappy.catbert.org>   K In article <opswtgvvb0zgicya@hyrrokkin>, Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com> wrote: I > On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:14:20 -0400, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    > wrote: > I >> Rarely would I use assembler code for something I can do in a higher   K >> level language.  However, what about when you want to do something the   ; >> language won't do for you?  Then things begin to be fun.   G > Actually only a few constructs need to be added to  3GL to completely F > replace the need for assembler.  I did it 20 years ago with PL/I andD > demonstrated  that I could replace any module in Berkeley Unix 4.4 > whether in assembler or C.  $ Including things like a boot loader?   -Dan   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2005 18:23:01 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)4 Subject: Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64+ Message-ID: <3obds5F5116gU1@individual.net>   3 In article <YemHKjSwEtNs@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:\ > In article <11i0qkvrp1la564@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>  K >> The way I read it, it would not be aimed at any particular architecure.  L >>   It would be able to be set up to 'be' any architecure desired.  If so, D >> while there may be 'better' and 'worse' systems to implement, it D >> wouldn't be a case of "aimed at one, and compatable with others". > B >    Why in the world bring back microcoded computers?  Are 11/780 >    fast enough again?   C The VAX is emulated every day at a level much higher than microcode 4 and considerably faster than the speed of an 11/780.  A Why microcode?  How long does it take to bring a new processor to A market when you find a bug in your current version? (The infamous C Pentium FP bug or how about the almost unusable 75Mhz Pentium?) How @ long to get a new version of microcode out to all your processorB users?  Or, minor tweaks of the processor done in weeks instead of months.   C Microcode seems to be yet another of those things that was just too E far ahead of its time.  And, like Virtual Machines (UCSP P-System and F JavaVM) or the Virtual OS, they are things whose time may have finallyD arrived.  Too bad we threw all that research out all those years agoD and now have to re-invent the wheel making all the same mistakes all over again.    > J >    Back in the heyday of microcoded computers there was a company (NAS?)H >    selling replacements for a wide variety of older systems, they justI >    used different microcode for different architectures.  I know a shop J >    which replaced 25 year old IBM 360/75 systems with them.  A few yearsJ >    later they went to real IBM 4341 systems (370 architecture, still had >    a 360 compatability mode).   G Pr1me 50 Series were microcoded.  There was a project up at UNH to port F Unix to it native mode (not PRIMIX which was just like WYNICE on a VAXF and just as slow) which involved new microcode to take out some of the$ wierdness that made a Pr1me a Pr1me.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:09:49 -0600 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>4 Subject: Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64( Message-ID: <4320B6AD.E1D4C273@mist.com>   Dave Froble wrote: >  > FredK wrote: > C > > But HP isn't a one trick pony, and VMS is just one part of it's G > > enterprise portfolio.  Its not targeted at taking over the desktop, B > > or leading the low-end computing space.  It is targeted at the6 > > mission critical, bet your business, server space. >  > And priced accordingly.  > H > Hey, if you keep prices at a point where small users won't buy, you'reG > the reason why sales are low.  It's as simple as that.  Today, people 3 > shop purchase price.  Most rarely look at upkeep.  >  > They bought DOS. > They bought Win95. > They bought Win98. > .  > .  > .  > They bought WinXP. > G > People keep buying, a little bit on each purchase, but add it up, and  > they've spent plenty.  > I > That's the way people buy.  Good, or bad, if you want to sell, you must 0 > give the consumer what they want and will buy. > I > Now, I don't see VMS getting enough office apps to make a difference in F > that market.  That's not the only low end usage, though it is ratherI > large.  For example, look at what I posted about games a few weeks ago. F >   300 million users!  Not saying games are your nitch either, but it, > shows that office apps are not everything. > H > The problem is, the way it's advertized, marketed, priced, etc, people@ > are DRIVEN to using windoz for other than office applications. > G > Now we both know that the promises of $1000 VMS systems and such were E > pure bullshit.  Regardless, if VMS were available on a really cheap J > platform, and priced in a manner to not drive people to windows, it just? > might sell.  In volume.  And you won't know until it's tried.  >  > Hardware:  >  > CPU             $100 > Disk 40 GB      $50  > MotherBoard     $100 >    (graphics on MB)  > Memory 512 MB   $50  > Case            $40  > DVD writer      $37.50 > E > Ok, maybe you might want some more, but I've got a few systems here G > built around Barton core Athlons with no more than $300 invested.  An   > Athlon-64 would be a bit more. >  > Not server quality, or price.  > " > You won't know until it's tried.  1 I think mass marketing has already proven itself. : Mass marketing VMS at a low price should already have been tried.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:16:14 -0600 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>4 Subject: Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64( Message-ID: <4320B82E.EC75E5FA@mist.com>   FredK wrote: > ( > <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message? > news:1126125377.266061.130330@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... 5 > > the above tadpole argument Fred would fit itanium  > > to a tee ... > > 7 > > let's see now, people are buying unix and linux now 3 > > on x86 as an alternative to windoze looking for : > > security and reliability not to mention clustering but5 > > that would never work for vms?  How much is gates @ > > paying you Fred or do you need a few more marketing classes? > >  > < > No.  Even Linux isn't "really" targeted at the laptop - or9 > really even at the generic desktop (or high-performance 4 > graphics).  The place it's making money for people$ > (other than RedHat) is in servers. > / > Let's modify what you say.  Few customers are / > switching from Windows to UNIX on x86.  There 0 > are quite a number who are switching (or would, > like to) from Windows and UNIX to Linux on3 > x86-32/x86-64 in an attempt to reach the ultimate 2 > realization of the SUN promise of "Open Systems"- > (from way back in the KO snake oil days) -- ) > "complete" vendor independence (or it's  > illusion). > : > It takes a truly committed Linux guy to run Linux on his: > laptop.  Instead of an appliance (Windows on the Laptop)5 > it needs all the care and feeding needed by a Linux ) > expert (and you had better become one).  > 8 > I can happily run my Windows laptop in ignorant bliss.5 > Comes all setup, with a quick restore CD.  Abundant 5 > software is available from everywhere (on CD from a 7 > store, from download on the net).  I can even have MS 4 > automagically download patches and updates.  Put a= > commercial anti-virus and firewall on it - and don't really 8 > even need to know what they do.  I can buy pretty much7 > any laptop from any source and be assured that all my  > applications will run on it.  ; Well, Fred, I already migrated from Windows to OS X.  I got ; tired of wasting my time maintaining a windows box that has : relatively little to no security while on the internet.  I; don't have that problem with OS X and don't need to buy all 9 the special apps that keep a PC relatively clean.  But it 6 isn't a complete solution for windows users as they'll7 eventually keep seeing new viruses, worms, malware, and < spybots infesting machines and slogging down performance.  A; fellow recently said he was glad he purchased that new 3Ghz < Intel PC with XP on it as it really needs the performance to< run XP...  well, after my first initial suspicions, I looked< at his PC for anything to slog it down... yep!  He had about8 700+ spybots and a few keyloggers in there and he wasn't8 even aware of it.  After doing a reinstall, he noticed a: vast speed improvement.  But after a week or so it started8 to slow down again.  Face it... M$ never had security in  mind when they designed the o/s.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:06:04 -0600 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>4 Subject: Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64( Message-ID: <4320B5CC.E2F2CA49@mist.com>  
 CJT wrote: >  > GreyCloud wrote: >  > > bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > > A > >>because someone is paying off HP just like they did Q to keep ? > >>OpenVMS off x86, because the day that happens windoze/linux  > >>becomes toast ...  > >  > > > > > Maybe that is what is causing Ballmer to appear sweaty all
 > > the time.  > J > According to news items, it's apparently Google and the Chinese that are > getting to Ballmer and Gates.  >   % Piracy has always gotten Gates' goat. 9 And then Linux seems to also elicite nasty responses from 
 them as well.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:41:30 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 4 Subject: Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA640 Message-ID: <11i1io7so085o78@corp.supernews.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:X > In article <3ob0aoF53q53U2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > 6 >>In article <54YTe.12098$kw6.11820@news.cpqcorp.net>,/ >>	"FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> writes:  >>- >>>Most Windows users couldn't install VMS.    >>. >>Most computer experts couldn't install VMS.  >  >  > I find that hard to believe. > E > Perhaps they would have trouble using it effectively or managing it ) > when done, but installation is trivial.    Define 'computer expert'.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:02:34 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> 4 Subject: RE: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB6B26A6@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----3 > From: Dave Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com]=20 ! > Sent: September 8, 2005 7:42 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 6 > Subject: Re: Microsoft to limit Windows apps on IA64 >=20 > Larry Kilgallen wrote:2 > > In article <3ob0aoF53q53U2@individual.net>,=20, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >=208 > >>In article <54YTe.12098$kw6.11820@news.cpqcorp.net>,1 > >>	"FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> writes:  > >>1 > >>>Most Windows users couldn't install VMS. =20  > >>2 > >>Most computer experts couldn't install VMS.=20 > >=20 > >=20  > > I find that hard to believe. > >=20G > > Perhaps they would have trouble using it effectively or managing it + > > when done, but installation is trivial.  >=20 > Define 'computer expert'.  >=20  G Expert =3D X is an unknown quantity and spert is a drip under pressure.    :-)   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2005 12:38:24 -0700 ' From: "tadamsmar" <tadamsmar@yahoo.com>  Subject: Prior version supportC Message-ID: <1126208304.745626.322930@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F Does anyone know what version of VMS is required to be able to renew a0 license without paying for prior version support   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:32:48 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> " Subject: RE: Prior version supportR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB6B2691@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: tadamsmar [mailto:tadamsmar@yahoo.com]=20 ! > Sent: September 8, 2005 3:38 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com   > Subject: Prior version support >=20H > Does anyone know what version of VMS is required to be able to renew a2 > license without paying for prior version support >=20 >=20  
 Check out:G http://h20219.www2.hp.com/services/cache/11779-0-0-225-121.aspx#OpenVMS    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:51:18 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: Prior version support+ Message-ID: <4320DC86.34F14882@comcast.net>    tadamsmar wrote: > H > Does anyone know what version of VMS is required to be able to renew a2 > license without paying for prior version support  F "Renew a license"? What VMS license do you have that has a time limit?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 8 SEP 2005 12:07:20 GMT 4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)' Subject: Re: Security - John the Ripper 5 Message-ID: <8SEP05.12072009@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>   S In a previous article, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:   J ->   dilbert5 would pass the VMS password dictionary check.  Most password% ->   guessers would pop it right out.   E Another interesting method of checking password weakness (before it's G used) would be to do a google search on the password. If not found it's G probably a fairly good password. However, I don't know of any way to do = such a search securely without exposing the clear text to the & internet, making it a bit impractical.   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison 9 --                  karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu      ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:15:22 -0700 + From: "Russell E. Owen" <rowen@cesmail.net> : Subject: Re: tcp connection that looks like a serial port?A Message-ID: <rowen-7B489E.12152208092005@gnus01.u.washington.edu>   3 In article <crITe.12028$3%5.7780@news.cpqcorp.net>, %  hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote:   O >In article <rowen-10D22C.13144407092005@gnus01.u.washington.edu>, "Russell E.  " >Owen" <rowen@cesmail.net> writes:8 >:Thank you and all the others for your helpful replies.6 >:telnet/create=permanent is exactly what I was after. > M >  I will add the MultiNet "reverse telnet" command "telnet/create=permanent" E >  into a future edition of the FAQ.  (CREATE-NTY isn't needed here?)   G The following command approximately does what I want (in Multinet 4.4): H telnet/create_nty=(permanent, name=<logname>, table=group)/port=<port#>  <ip_address_of_terminal_server>   E This creates a permanent tcp/ip connection that can be accessed as a  I serial port using the specified logical name. All processes in the group  F can see the connection and it persists after the user who created the I connection logs out (fortunately, and despite an alarming bit of text in  > the Multinet manual to the contrary). Also, the connection is D re-established if the terminal server drops it (very useful for us, A since we sometimes take over a port on the terminal server to do  " low-level maintenance on a device)  G The one serious remaining problem is that whenever a user connects (at  H least using SET TERM/DTE) one gets some garbage characters displayed. I G have a request for help into the Multinet folks on this issue, as it's  # likely to be fatal for my purposes.   : The Multinet telnet docs I used for this command are here:B <http://www.process.com/tcpip/mndocs51/USER_GUIDE/AppA.htm#E55E64>  7 The equivalent HP TCP/IP services telnet docs are here: I <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/6525/6525pro_014.html#teln_c_for_  boo_and_toplevelhlp>  I I find the name "reverse telnet" a bit confusing. For my purposes it's a  E way of making a tcp/ip connection look like a serial port to the VMS  H code. But if "serial port" and "tcp/ip" (or perhaps "telnet") appear in / the text then a search is likely to turn it up.    Regards,  
 -- Russell   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:35:59 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>: Subject: Re: tcp connection that looks like a serial port?; Message-ID: <zo0Ue.11209$fb.9673@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    Russell E. Owen wrote:  I > The one serious remaining problem is that whenever a user connects (at  J > least using SET TERM/DTE) one gets some garbage characters displayed. I I > have a request for help into the Multinet folks on this issue, as it's  % > likely to be fatal for my purposes.   E How about using Kermit to handle SET HOST/DTE and a little script to   filter the garbage?    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:56:10 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> : Subject: Re: tcp connection that looks like a serial port?0 Message-ID: <11i1jjo8s3gjk0a@corp.supernews.com>   Russell E. Owen wrote:  I > The one serious remaining problem is that whenever a user connects (at  J > least using SET TERM/DTE) one gets some garbage characters displayed. I I > have a request for help into the Multinet folks on this issue, as it's  % > likely to be fatal for my purposes.   I Don't know if it's the same thing, but, sounds like a case of needing to   flush the type-ahead buffer.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2005 11:30:28 -0700 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>% Subject: Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX C Message-ID: <1126204228.070502.244660@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Big John wrote: G > Well, now the discussion has evolved, we seem to be arguing about the F > plural of Xerox! I can handle that. I guess if I go into a butcher'sH > shop and keep taking several Xerox copies of each piece of meat on the= > slab, I will eventually end of with 'Xeroces of the liver'.  > 
 > Sorry, John     B Yikes! Consider Xeroxen as plural of Xerox. Sounds even worse thanD Vaxen as a plural. And this one actually has a CLOSER tie to ox than	 VAX does.        Ox, Xerox -- both contain OX.   VAX does not contain OX.       [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:40:50 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX , Message-ID: <432093BC.24E4E9CC@teksavvy.com>  
 AEF wrote:- > Yikes! Consider Xeroxen as plural of Xerox.   5 How about "Xerox machines" as plurial of "Xerox" ????     & "We have many vaxes in this facility".    H While I think that "Vaxen" is cute, I think that general usage in spoken english is  "vaxes"     D In french, interestingly, one would *say* VAX even in plurial. There@ doesn't seem to be some instinctive need to change it to make itF plurial.  In writen French, it might not be so evident, but I think itH would remain "VAX" with the context of the sentence dictatibng if it was singular or plurial.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:58:30 -0600- From: "Jim MacKenzie" <jim@dusykbarlow.sk.ca> % Subject: Re: VAXen as a plural of VAX + Message-ID: <432097de$1@news.accesscomm.ca>   0 "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message = news:1126204228.070502.244660@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...  > ! >   Ox, Xerox -- both contain OX.  >  > VAX does not contain OX.  E Child -> children... ("child" formerly being "childre" in English...)    Next analogy please.   Jim    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.503 ************************                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              is what he meant.  [I had a difficult time parsing theB original on my display.]  I tried it and sure enough it pulls in a; different light module.  So here are my followup questions:   I * I imagine the display address selector switch is then set to Super D in 5 order to view the rest of the pattern?  If not, what?   A * I haven't tried but does this same answer work up through V9.1?   G It's quite intesting.  I now see supervisor mode being used extensively G where it wasn't before.  This is a good sign.  However this has exposed F some bugs in my display panel emulation.  That's good as it gives me a chance to fix them.    Thanks much,   John   --   John A. Dundas III2 Director, Information Technology Services, Caltech+ Mail Code: 014-81, Pasadena, CA  91125-8100 A Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973 <mailto:dundas@caltech.edu>    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 16:03:17 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer3 Message-ID: <F43EO94ZL14m@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <b096a4ee.0308050733.53bf2840@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > B > On my W2K box you can find it with Start, Programs, Accessories,& > Command Prompt. It's not *that* bad.  F    On my Windows boxes it's on the toolbar.  After I find it, that is.E    But running "c:\WINNT\system32\CMD.EXE" is not intuitive no matter     how you get to it.  > E > On the general question in this thread: I think that PCs/Macs would ) > not have gotten so popular without GUI.   E    We had folks pushing PC's before MS shipped windows.  Even if just C    to run PC-WRITE on.  At least PC-WRITE didn't have its own ideas 9    about when and how to reformat text you didn't change.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Aug 2003 19:45:20 -0700 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)J Subject: Re: Ease of use (was: Re: Idiot (I know that's redundant) spammer= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0308051845.54629c99@posting.google.com>   v koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in message news:<F43EO94ZL14m@eisner.encompasserve.org>...p > In article <b096a4ee.0308050733.53bf2840@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > > D > > On my W2K box you can find it with Start, Programs, Accessories,( > > Command Prompt. It's not *that* bad. > H >    On my Windows boxes it's on the toolbar.  After I find it, that is.G >    But running "c:\WINNT\system32\