1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 25 Sep 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 535       Contents:4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs+ Re: How to make a DLT firmware update tape? H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. Re: Kea and VMS  RE: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  RE: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha? / Re: Semi-OT: eXcursion Server in Startup Group? 9 Re: TCP/IP Config Setting to set Network speed to 100Mbps 9 Re: TCP/IP Config Setting to set Network speed to 100Mbps   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:50:55 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs = Message-ID: <E4-dncY6j8eSPajeRVn-rA@metrocastcablevision.com>    Ron Hunter wrote:    ...   H > The wisdom of laying off employees to improve the bottom line, aside, G > the thing that amazes me is that people somehow think a company OWES  - > them a job.  WHERE did this idea come from?   A At least in this case, quite possibly from the fact that someone  F *actively compensated* the company specifically to provide those jobs.  @ Absent such considerations, I myself certainly don't think that E companies 'owe' their employees jobs (though it can provide valuable  B incentives for employee loyalty and productivity to consider them C partners rather than servants).  But I do think that they owe them  F already-accrued retirement benefits, because in that case as well one I party has *already* fulfilled its part of the bargain and it's up to the   company to fulfill theirs.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2005 13:18:45 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs C Message-ID: <1127593125.251640.154200@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    > > G > The wisdom of laying off employees to improve the bottom line, aside, F > the thing that amazes me is that people somehow think a company OWES- > them a job.  WHERE did this idea come from?  >     - 1) First it comes from HP management itself : B they keep repeating to their employees that they are the company's
 primary asset D and that HP would do everything to educate them to adapt to new jobs and technologies.  Well we see the results ...   F 2) Yes a company who is increasing its profits as HP is, thanks to the labor @ of its employees owes them something, but obviously this kind of
 consideration  exceeds your understanding.   B 3) Now even on a pure "strategic" view ie to make more profits the	 vision of  HP is short-sighted.E What is the strategy of Mark Hurd ? From the beginning everybody knew  thatF he would do in HP. Is it really necessary to spend millions of dollars to hire ) someone who will merely do a subtraction. G This is the kind of job who could be offshored,  Indians know how to do  subtractions also.D The analysts wanted a CEO for a better "execution". May be Mark HurdG is simply wrong on the acception of "execution" taking it as "taking to  death" ?  C When you are the CEO of a company at the origin of some of the most 	 brilliant E technologies in the IT industry like workstations (Apollo), Ethernet, G Vaxes, Alpha, Tru64, OpenVMS (Digital), Non-Stop Kernel (Tandem), hpux, G Itanium (HP) and many others your customers would prefer hearing you on / more interesting subjects than cost reductions.   G We are waiting with impatience to hear conferences from Mark Hurd about E his vison about the future of Operating systems, how Itanium compares 	 to Alpha, , trends in storage technolgy and many others.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:36:39 GMT $ From: measekite <inkystinky@oem.com>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs < Message-ID: <rNiZe.6421$6e1.3304@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>   Frank wrote:   > d b turner wrote:  > I >> Hell, after 1945 when AMERICA and the UK, Canada, etc.  bailed France  I >> out of occupation you would think it would be gracious to an American   >> corporation such as HP. >>G >> As for the money given by French government, I wonder how many GI's  & >> lives were taken protecting France. >>C >> After all, if it wasn't for our Grandfathers/Fathers, the Prime  > >> Minister of France would be the UnterFuhrer von Frankreich. >>F >> And maybe Pepsico, which seems to be profitable, could wake up the K >> flailing Danone Milk Company and cut some corporate garlic ridden fat...  >> >> Geez these French ! >> >> ;0) >> >> DT  >> >> >> >> >>) >> <mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message  ? >> news:1127499271.100223.41150@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  >>4 >>> France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs  >>> Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:26 AM ETK >>> OYONNAX, France, Sept 23 (Reuters) - French Prime Minister Dominique de F >>> Villepin maintained pressure on Hewlett-Packard Co. (HPQ.N: Quote,I >>> Profile, Research) on Friday, calling on the U.S. computer company to 1 >>> rethink its plan to cut 1,240 jobs in France. K >>> The conservative government, under pressure to reduce unemployment from I >>> close to 10 percent, has scheduled a meeting with the firm's European C >>> head, Francesco Serafini, and referred its job-cut plans to the # >>> European Commission for review.  >>> G >>> Villepin said HP should reimburse any public aid it has received in  >>> France.  >>> I >>> "It is important that public aid is not redirected from its purpose," J >>> Villepin said during a visit to Oyonnax in eastern France, adding that> >>> subsidies were meant to help firms with their national and >>> international strategies.  >>> F >>> "(Firms) cannot pocket aid and then put the key under the door andK >>> leave to develop elsewhere. It's a question of economic patriotism," he 	 >>> said.  >>> J >>> HP said in July it would axe about 10 percent of its work force to cutK >>> costs by $1.9 billion a year. The world's second-biggest computer maker E >>> has said a total of 2,500 jobs will go in Germany and Britain, in $ >>> addition to the 1,240 in France. >>> G >>> The EU Commission has said it has no power to prevent HP dismissing I >>> workers. But France's conservative government has stepped up rhetoric H >>> over the case this week, making clear it is ready to put up a fight. >>> G >>> Labour Relations Minister Gerard Larcher is set to meet Serafini on  >>> Monday.  >>> I >>> Villepin is trying to win back voters' confidence after they rejected I >>> the European Union's constitution in a referendum in May. Many French 8 >>> people said they voted "No" because of job concerns. >>> K >>> Under a policy he calls economic patriotism, Villepin has vowed to take D >>> a tough line against any moves by firms that are not in France's >>> interests. >>> I >>> The government is also drawing up a list of industries to keep out of  >>> foreign hands. >>> I >>> It has made clear it wants to stave off any hostile bid for food firm G >>> Danone (DANO.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) since rumours began that J >>> U.S. drinks giant PepsiCo Inc. (PEP.N: Quote, Profile, Research) might >>> make a bid.  >>> G >>> "It is time that France equips itself with an appropriate arsenal," E >>> Villepin said in an interview published by Les Echos newspaper on 3 >>> Friday. "We should compete with equal weapons."  >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> More info : 
 >>> ---------  >>>  >>> http://hpwfr.blogspot.com/ >>>  >>> http://cftchp.blogspot.com/  >>> v >>> http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh08065_2005-09-23_15-26-04_l23191877_newsml  >>>  >>>  >> >> >>A > You need only to go to France and personally find out just how  E > grateful to Americans they still are for helping to liberate their  B > country in WWII. I know because I was there.  I ate shit on the G > Normandy beach.  The bullshit we hear over here about France doesn't    > translate the same over there. > Frank    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:40:04 -0700 * From: Arthur <no.body.lives.here@xoxy.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <5ohbj11arg2ve43deqnkhiosmfqfb1spnf@4ax.com>  F Maybe we need to learn a lesson from such Socialist W Eur governments.> W Eur has become and is becoming more communist than the USSR  The left ends at communism.   5 Now lets hear the roar from the idots in the audience  Make my sunny day chumps   arthur ======9 On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:20:46 -0400,  "d b turner"  wrote:   N >Hell, after 1945 when AMERICA and the UK, Canada, etc.  bailed France out of L >occupation you would think it would be gracious to an American corporation  >such as HP. > K >As for the money given by French government, I wonder how many GI's lives   >were taken protecting France. > M >After all, if it wasn't for our Grandfathers/Fathers, the Prime Minister of  0 >France would be the UnterFuhrer von Frankreich. > M >And maybe Pepsico, which seems to be profitable, could wake up the flailing  @ >Danone Milk Company and cut some corporate garlic ridden fat... >  >Geez these French ! >  >;0) >  >DT  >  >  >  >  > ' ><mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message  = >news:1127499271.100223.41150@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... 3 >> France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs  >> Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:26 AM ET J >> OYONNAX, France, Sept 23 (Reuters) - French Prime Minister Dominique deE >> Villepin maintained pressure on Hewlett-Packard Co. (HPQ.N: Quote, H >> Profile, Research) on Friday, calling on the U.S. computer company to0 >> rethink its plan to cut 1,240 jobs in France.J >> The conservative government, under pressure to reduce unemployment fromH >> close to 10 percent, has scheduled a meeting with the firm's EuropeanB >> head, Francesco Serafini, and referred its job-cut plans to the" >> European Commission for review. >>F >> Villepin said HP should reimburse any public aid it has received in
 >> France. >>H >> "It is important that public aid is not redirected from its purpose,"I >> Villepin said during a visit to Oyonnax in eastern France, adding that = >> subsidies were meant to help firms with their national and  >> international strategies. >>E >> "(Firms) cannot pocket aid and then put the key under the door and J >> leave to develop elsewhere. It's a question of economic patriotism," he >> said. >>I >> HP said in July it would axe about 10 percent of its work force to cut J >> costs by $1.9 billion a year. The world's second-biggest computer makerD >> has said a total of 2,500 jobs will go in Germany and Britain, in# >> addition to the 1,240 in France.  >>F >> The EU Commission has said it has no power to prevent HP dismissingH >> workers. But France's conservative government has stepped up rhetoricG >> over the case this week, making clear it is ready to put up a fight.  >>F >> Labour Relations Minister Gerard Larcher is set to meet Serafini on
 >> Monday. >>H >> Villepin is trying to win back voters' confidence after they rejectedH >> the European Union's constitution in a referendum in May. Many French7 >> people said they voted "No" because of job concerns.  >>J >> Under a policy he calls economic patriotism, Villepin has vowed to takeC >> a tough line against any moves by firms that are not in France's 
 >> interests.  >>H >> The government is also drawing up a list of industries to keep out of >> foreign hands.  >>H >> It has made clear it wants to stave off any hostile bid for food firmF >> Danone (DANO.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) since rumours began thatI >> U.S. drinks giant PepsiCo Inc. (PEP.N: Quote, Profile, Research) might  >> make a bid. >>F >> "It is time that France equips itself with an appropriate arsenal,"D >> Villepin said in an interview published by Les Echos newspaper on2 >> Friday. "We should compete with equal weapons." >> >> >> >> More info : >> --------- >> >> http://hpwfr.blogspot.com/  >> >> http://cftchp.blogspot.com/ >>t >> http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh08065_2005-09-23_15-26-04_l23191877_newsml >>   >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:47:37 -0400   From: Blash <blash1@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs / Message-ID: <BF5B41B9.17A31%blash1@comcast.net>    Arthur says:  7 > Now lets hear the roar from the idots in the audience    Right.....c'mon you  i d o t s   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2005 14:57:42 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs B Message-ID: <1127599062.332935.39510@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
 Arthur wrote: H > Maybe we need to learn a lesson from such Socialist W Eur governments.   Yes ...   ? > W Eur has become and is becoming more communist than the USSR  > The left ends at communism.  >   / You probably don't even know what communism is.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:57:59 -0000 
 From: Tony <> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs - Message-ID: <part1of1.1.KuMFzN1vK6VBzw@ue.ph>   + Arthur <no.body.lives.here@xoxy.net> wrote: G >Maybe we need to learn a lesson from such Socialist W Eur governments. ? >W Eur has become and is becoming more communist than the USSR   >The left ends at communism. > 6 >Now lets hear the roar from the idots in the audience     Miaow (big yawn....zzzzzzzz)   Tony     >Make my sunny day chumps  >  >arthur    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:30:34 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <cqkbj1thgkcv8n5veb5g9fdr15ntunqcrf@4ax.com>  E On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:15:35 -0500, Ron Hunter <rphunter@charter.net>  wrote:   >mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote: >> d b turner wrote:O >>> I was in France about 4 weeks ago - beautiful along the midi-pyrenees - but N >>> the people were the rudest, most unfriendly people - and I speak French so >>> they >>> hasve no excuse. >>> < >>> (I am a Brit -mum is French Dad Brit - I live in GA USA. >>>  >>> : >>> Even the food has gotten lame since my last trip in 98L >>> And for those that are blinkered about the Frenchman's animosity towards) >>> their saviours - it's all bloody true 6 >>> Theyt hate the British and theyt detest Americans. >>   >>   >>  E >> This thread has nothing to do with your racism against the French.  >>  A >> The truth is that HP is showing the same lack of real strategy 
 >> in the US.  >>  = >> Our US HP friends are also laid off because of the current 7 >> trends of brilliant strategists backed up by no less 3 >> brilliant stock analysts who have no other ideas " >> to try to help the stock price. >>  * >> No doing a substraction is not a vision >> nor a strategy. >>   >>  - >> One difference though : French laws permit + >> a strike whereas it is almost impossible  >> within HP in the US.  >>  * >> When a company claims all the time that2 >> Ethic is important to it and that its employees2 >> are its best asset, it should not be authorized/ >> to lay off while increasing at the same time  >> its profits and distributing % >> millions of $ to its top managers.  >>  G >The wisdom of laying off employees to improve the bottom line, aside,  F >the thing that amazes me is that people somehow think a company OWES , >them a job.  WHERE did this idea come from?  < 	From the loyalty demanded while you're on the job, perhaps. It's a two-way street.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:48:52 -0700  From: Frank <fb@notspam.com>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs - Message-ID: <lJkZe.13323$GQ4.7903@fed1read05>    Blash wrote:   > Arthur says: >  > 7 >>Now lets hear the roar from the idots in the audience  >  >   > Right.....c'mon you  i d o t s >  What's an "idot"?  Frank    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:47:06 -0700  From: Frank <fb@notspam.com>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs . Message-ID: <KHkZe.13322$GQ4.13251@fed1read05>   kashe@sonic.net wrote:? > 	Thanks for the fine posting measekite. Name from Cabaret, no  > doubt. >  >  >  > B > On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:36:39 GMT, measekite <inkystinky@oem.com> > wrote: >  >  >> >>Frank wrote: >> >> >>>d b turner wrote: >>>  >>> J >>>>Hell, after 1945 when AMERICA and the UK, Canada, etc.  bailed France J >>>>out of occupation you would think it would be gracious to an American  >>>>corporation such as HP.  >>>>H >>>>As for the money given by French government, I wonder how many GI's ' >>>>lives were taken protecting France.  >>>>D >>>>After all, if it wasn't for our Grandfathers/Fathers, the Prime ? >>>>Minister of France would be the UnterFuhrer von Frankreich.  >>>>G >>>>And maybe Pepsico, which seems to be profitable, could wake up the  L >>>>flailing Danone Milk Company and cut some corporate garlic ridden fat... >>>> >>>>Geez these French !  >>>> >>>>;0)  >>>> >>>>DT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>* >>>><mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message @ >>>>news:1127499271.100223.41150@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >>>> >>>>5 >>>>>France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ! >>>>>Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:26 AM ET L >>>>>OYONNAX, France, Sept 23 (Reuters) - French Prime Minister Dominique deG >>>>>Villepin maintained pressure on Hewlett-Packard Co. (HPQ.N: Quote, J >>>>>Profile, Research) on Friday, calling on the U.S. computer company to2 >>>>>rethink its plan to cut 1,240 jobs in France.L >>>>>The conservative government, under pressure to reduce unemployment fromJ >>>>>close to 10 percent, has scheduled a meeting with the firm's EuropeanD >>>>>head, Francesco Serafini, and referred its job-cut plans to the$ >>>>>European Commission for review. >>>>> H >>>>>Villepin said HP should reimburse any public aid it has received in >>>>>France. >>>>> J >>>>>"It is important that public aid is not redirected from its purpose,"K >>>>>Villepin said during a visit to Oyonnax in eastern France, adding that ? >>>>>subsidies were meant to help firms with their national and  >>>>>international strategies. >>>>> G >>>>>"(Firms) cannot pocket aid and then put the key under the door and L >>>>>leave to develop elsewhere. It's a question of economic patriotism," he
 >>>>>said. >>>>> K >>>>>HP said in July it would axe about 10 percent of its work force to cut L >>>>>costs by $1.9 billion a year. The world's second-biggest computer makerF >>>>>has said a total of 2,500 jobs will go in Germany and Britain, in% >>>>>addition to the 1,240 in France.  >>>>> H >>>>>The EU Commission has said it has no power to prevent HP dismissingJ >>>>>workers. But France's conservative government has stepped up rhetoricI >>>>>over the case this week, making clear it is ready to put up a fight.  >>>>> H >>>>>Labour Relations Minister Gerard Larcher is set to meet Serafini on >>>>>Monday. >>>>> J >>>>>Villepin is trying to win back voters' confidence after they rejectedJ >>>>>the European Union's constitution in a referendum in May. Many French9 >>>>>people said they voted "No" because of job concerns.  >>>>> L >>>>>Under a policy he calls economic patriotism, Villepin has vowed to takeE >>>>>a tough line against any moves by firms that are not in France's  >>>>>interests.  >>>>> J >>>>>The government is also drawing up a list of industries to keep out of >>>>>foreign hands.  >>>>> J >>>>>It has made clear it wants to stave off any hostile bid for food firmH >>>>>Danone (DANO.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) since rumours began thatK >>>>>U.S. drinks giant PepsiCo Inc. (PEP.N: Quote, Profile, Research) might  >>>>>make a bid. >>>>> H >>>>>"It is time that France equips itself with an appropriate arsenal,"F >>>>>Villepin said in an interview published by Les Echos newspaper on4 >>>>>Friday. "We should compete with equal weapons." >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>More info : >>>>>--------- >>>>>  >>>>>http://hpwfr.blogspot.com/  >>>>>   >>>>>http://cftchp.blogspot.com/ >>>>> w >>>>>http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh08065_2005-09-23_15-26-04_l23191877_newsml   >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>> >>>> >>>>B >>>You need only to go to France and personally find out just how F >>>grateful to Americans they still are for helping to liberate their C >>>country in WWII. I know because I was there.  I ate shit on the  H >>>Normandy beach.  The bullshit we hear over here about France doesn't ! >>>translate the same over there.  >>>Frank >  > F Don't mind him. He is our resident pervert. He has no idea what we're H talking about let alone what or where "France" is. But he does bend all G the way over for anything canon (if you get my meaning). His signature  H response to my post is to change my wording and re-post. Brilliant huh?  The work of a mental giant! # He is nothing but a fuckwit coward. " Kill file his stupid demented ass. Frank    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:34:36 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <jvkbj1tk6184dhakpt75rebnke6kov7466@4ax.com>  ; 	Ron's pathetic little piece of puffery at the end required = quoting 130 lines of crap. People -- _that's_ why I top post.   1 	Scroll way down if you think it's worth reading.     E On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:14:17 -0500, Ron Hunter <rphunter@charter.net>  wrote:   >d b turner wrote:O >> I was in France about 4 weeks ago - beautiful along the midi-pyrenees - but  N >> the people were the rudest, most unfriendly people - and I speak French so  >> they  >> hasve no excuse.  >>  ; >> (I am a Brit -mum is French Dad Brit - I live in GA USA.  >>   >>  9 >> Even the food has gotten lame since my last trip in 98 L >> And for those that are blinkered about the Frenchman's animosity towards ( >> their saviours - it's all bloody true5 >> Theyt hate the British and theyt detest Americans.  >>  O >> And for those who want to bring up the American War of Indepence - that was  = >> 1776~ the French revolution was only 13~ years afterwards. M >> The pre-revolution French are not to be compared with the Republican Frogs  >>   >> DT  >>   >>  - >> "Frank" <fb@notspam.com> wrote in message  + >> news:CV5Ze.13215$GQ4.12013@fed1read05...  >>> d b turner wrote:  >>> O >>>> Hell, after 1945 when AMERICA and the UK, Canada, etc.  bailed France out  G >>>> of occupation you would think it would be gracious to an American   >>>> corporation such as HP. >>>>O >>>> As for the money given by French government, I wonder how many GI's lives  " >>>> were taken protecting France. >>>>N >>>> After all, if it wasn't for our Grandfathers/Fathers, the Prime Minister 7 >>>> of France would be the UnterFuhrer von Frankreich.  >>>>H >>>> And maybe Pepsico, which seems to be profitable, could wake up the M >>>> flailing Danone Milk Company and cut some corporate garlic ridden fat...  >>>> >>>> Geez these French ! >>>> >>>> ;0) >>>> >>>> DT  >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>+ >>>> <mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message  A >>>> news:1127499271.100223.41150@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  >>>>6 >>>>> France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs" >>>>> Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:26 AM ETM >>>>> OYONNAX, France, Sept 23 (Reuters) - French Prime Minister Dominique de H >>>>> Villepin maintained pressure on Hewlett-Packard Co. (HPQ.N: Quote,K >>>>> Profile, Research) on Friday, calling on the U.S. computer company to 3 >>>>> rethink its plan to cut 1,240 jobs in France. M >>>>> The conservative government, under pressure to reduce unemployment from K >>>>> close to 10 percent, has scheduled a meeting with the firm's European E >>>>> head, Francesco Serafini, and referred its job-cut plans to the % >>>>> European Commission for review.  >>>>> I >>>>> Villepin said HP should reimburse any public aid it has received in 
 >>>>> France.  >>>>> K >>>>> "It is important that public aid is not redirected from its purpose," L >>>>> Villepin said during a visit to Oyonnax in eastern France, adding that@ >>>>> subsidies were meant to help firms with their national and >>>>> international strategies.  >>>>> H >>>>> "(Firms) cannot pocket aid and then put the key under the door andM >>>>> leave to develop elsewhere. It's a question of economic patriotism," he  >>>>> said.  >>>>> L >>>>> HP said in July it would axe about 10 percent of its work force to cutM >>>>> costs by $1.9 billion a year. The world's second-biggest computer maker G >>>>> has said a total of 2,500 jobs will go in Germany and Britain, in & >>>>> addition to the 1,240 in France. >>>>> I >>>>> The EU Commission has said it has no power to prevent HP dismissing K >>>>> workers. But France's conservative government has stepped up rhetoric J >>>>> over the case this week, making clear it is ready to put up a fight. >>>>> I >>>>> Labour Relations Minister Gerard Larcher is set to meet Serafini on 
 >>>>> Monday.  >>>>> K >>>>> Villepin is trying to win back voters' confidence after they rejected K >>>>> the European Union's constitution in a referendum in May. Many French : >>>>> people said they voted "No" because of job concerns. >>>>> M >>>>> Under a policy he calls economic patriotism, Villepin has vowed to take F >>>>> a tough line against any moves by firms that are not in France's >>>>> interests. >>>>> K >>>>> The government is also drawing up a list of industries to keep out of  >>>>> foreign hands. >>>>> K >>>>> It has made clear it wants to stave off any hostile bid for food firm I >>>>> Danone (DANO.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) since rumours began that L >>>>> U.S. drinks giant PepsiCo Inc. (PEP.N: Quote, Profile, Research) might >>>>> make a bid.  >>>>> I >>>>> "It is time that France equips itself with an appropriate arsenal," G >>>>> Villepin said in an interview published by Les Echos newspaper on 5 >>>>> Friday. "We should compete with equal weapons."  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>> More info :  >>>>> ---------  >>>>>   >>>>> http://hpwfr.blogspot.com/ >>>>> ! >>>>> http://cftchp.blogspot.com/  >>>>> w >>>>> http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh08065_2005-09-23_15-26-04_l23191877_newsml  >>>>>  >>>> >>>>O >>> You need only to go to France and personally find out just how grateful to  L >>> Americans they still are for helping to liberate their country in WWII. K >>> The bullshit we hear over here about France doesn't translate the same   >>> over there. 
 >>> Frank  >>   >>  G >Well, given the lack of support from France in recent times, the next  H >time their Gallic butts need to be pulled from the fire, I say we toss = >them 5 gallons of gasoline and tell them to have a nice day.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:37:04 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <m7lbj1dh0lfft8ecva4prmua813pp155dd@4ax.com>  E On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:47:37 -0400, Blash <blash1@comcast.net> wrote:   
 >Arthur says:  > 8 >> Now lets hear the roar from the idots in the audience >  >Right.....c'mon you  i d o t s   ' 	Right, lower-than-whaleshit typo nazi.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:36:16 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <a5lbj19crsufbb1j95r99a62qnbcnln522@4ax.com>  = 	Thanks for the fine posting measekite. Name from Cabaret, no  doubt.        @ On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:36:39 GMT, measekite <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote:   >  > 
 >Frank wrote:  >  >> d b turner wrote: >>J >>> Hell, after 1945 when AMERICA and the UK, Canada, etc.  bailed France J >>> out of occupation you would think it would be gracious to an American  >>> corporation such as HP.  >>> H >>> As for the money given by French government, I wonder how many GI's ' >>> lives were taken protecting France.  >>> D >>> After all, if it wasn't for our Grandfathers/Fathers, the Prime ? >>> Minister of France would be the UnterFuhrer von Frankreich.  >>> G >>> And maybe Pepsico, which seems to be profitable, could wake up the  L >>> flailing Danone Milk Company and cut some corporate garlic ridden fat... >>>  >>> Geez these French !  >>>  >>> ;0)  >>>  >>> DT >>>  >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> * >>> <mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message @ >>> news:1127499271.100223.41150@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >>> 5 >>>> France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ! >>>> Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:26 AM ET L >>>> OYONNAX, France, Sept 23 (Reuters) - French Prime Minister Dominique deG >>>> Villepin maintained pressure on Hewlett-Packard Co. (HPQ.N: Quote, J >>>> Profile, Research) on Friday, calling on the U.S. computer company to2 >>>> rethink its plan to cut 1,240 jobs in France.L >>>> The conservative government, under pressure to reduce unemployment fromJ >>>> close to 10 percent, has scheduled a meeting with the firm's EuropeanD >>>> head, Francesco Serafini, and referred its job-cut plans to the$ >>>> European Commission for review. >>>>H >>>> Villepin said HP should reimburse any public aid it has received in >>>> France. >>>>J >>>> "It is important that public aid is not redirected from its purpose,"K >>>> Villepin said during a visit to Oyonnax in eastern France, adding that ? >>>> subsidies were meant to help firms with their national and  >>>> international strategies. >>>>G >>>> "(Firms) cannot pocket aid and then put the key under the door and L >>>> leave to develop elsewhere. It's a question of economic patriotism," he
 >>>> said. >>>>K >>>> HP said in July it would axe about 10 percent of its work force to cut L >>>> costs by $1.9 billion a year. The world's second-biggest computer makerF >>>> has said a total of 2,500 jobs will go in Germany and Britain, in% >>>> addition to the 1,240 in France.  >>>>H >>>> The EU Commission has said it has no power to prevent HP dismissingJ >>>> workers. But France's conservative government has stepped up rhetoricI >>>> over the case this week, making clear it is ready to put up a fight.  >>>>H >>>> Labour Relations Minister Gerard Larcher is set to meet Serafini on >>>> Monday. >>>>J >>>> Villepin is trying to win back voters' confidence after they rejectedJ >>>> the European Union's constitution in a referendum in May. Many French9 >>>> people said they voted "No" because of job concerns.  >>>>L >>>> Under a policy he calls economic patriotism, Villepin has vowed to takeE >>>> a tough line against any moves by firms that are not in France's  >>>> interests.  >>>>J >>>> The government is also drawing up a list of industries to keep out of >>>> foreign hands.  >>>>J >>>> It has made clear it wants to stave off any hostile bid for food firmH >>>> Danone (DANO.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) since rumours began thatK >>>> U.S. drinks giant PepsiCo Inc. (PEP.N: Quote, Profile, Research) might  >>>> make a bid. >>>>H >>>> "It is time that France equips itself with an appropriate arsenal,"F >>>> Villepin said in an interview published by Les Echos newspaper on4 >>>> Friday. "We should compete with equal weapons." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> More info : >>>> --------- >>>> >>>> http://hpwfr.blogspot.com/  >>>>  >>>> http://cftchp.blogspot.com/ >>>>w >>>> http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh08065_2005-09-23_15-26-04_l23191877_newsml   >>>> >>>> >>>  >>>  >>> B >> You need only to go to France and personally find out just how F >> grateful to Americans they still are for helping to liberate their C >> country in WWII. I know because I was there.  I ate shit on the  H >> Normandy beach.  The bullshit we hear over here about France doesn't ! >> translate the same over there.  >> Frank   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:20:18 -0400 4 From: "Peter A. Stavrakoglou" <ntotrr@optonline.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <T9lZe.12680$i%2.1892@fe10.lga>   6 "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in message 2 news:jObZe.2652$0c3.1403@bignews5.bellsouth.net...M >I was in France about 4 weeks ago - beautiful along the midi-pyrenees - but  L >the people were the rudest, most unfriendly people - and I speak French so  >they  > hasve no excuse. > : > (I am a Brit -mum is French Dad Brit - I live in GA USA. >  > 8 > Even the food has gotten lame since my last trip in 98K > And for those that are blinkered about the Frenchman's animosity towards  ' > their saviours - it's all bloody true 4 > Theyt hate the British and theyt detest Americans. > J > And for those who want to bring up the American War of Indepence - that @ > was 1776~ the French revolution was only 13~ years afterwards.L > The pre-revolution French are not to be compared with the Republican Frogs >  > DT >  > , > "Frank" <fb@notspam.com> wrote in message * > news:CV5Ze.13215$GQ4.12013@fed1read05... >>d b turner wrote:  >>J >>> Hell, after 1945 when AMERICA and the UK, Canada, etc.  bailed France J >>> out of occupation you would think it would be gracious to an American  >>> corporation such as HP.  >>> H >>> As for the money given by French government, I wonder how many GI's ' >>> lives were taken protecting France.  >>> M >>> After all, if it wasn't for our Grandfathers/Fathers, the Prime Minister  6 >>> of France would be the UnterFuhrer von Frankreich. >>> G >>> And maybe Pepsico, which seems to be profitable, could wake up the  L >>> flailing Danone Milk Company and cut some corporate garlic ridden fat... >>>  >>> Geez these French !   : At least the French Revolution is one war the French won.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:28:11 -0400   From: Blash <blash1@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs / Message-ID: <BF5B594B.17A57%blash1@comcast.net>   ! kashe@sonic.net eloquently posts:   G > On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:47:37 -0400, Blash <blash1@comcast.net> wrote:  >  >> Arthur says:  >>  9 >>> Now lets hear the roar from the idots in the audience  >>  ! >> Right.....c'mon you  i d o t s  > ( > Right, lower-than-whaleshit typo nazi.  I     If this crap wasn't cross-posted all over the net, your short-comings # would not have been exposed........    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:09:02 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com>   Ron Hunter wrote: G > Well, given the lack of support from France in recent times, the next H > time their Gallic butts need to be pulled from the fire, I say we toss> > them 5 gallons of gasoline and tell them to have a nice day.  & Friends don't let friends drive drunk.  F The rest of the world tried to prevent Bush/Bliar/Howard from startingA their war crime against Iraq. They didn't try hard enough.  Don't D consider France to be your ennemy. They tried the hardest to preventH your country from making a very tragic mistake. Now, you're going to pay= for your mistake not only in money, but also lack of respect.   < Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals.     F Simon Wisenthal didn't let german war criminals sleep and pursued themH for all his life. War criminals MUST NOT be allowed to go out scott free3 and get plush jobs at some NGO like the world bank.   9 Consider how many innocent iraqis your president killed.    G Consider how forcefully your country reacted to 3000 folks losing their F life on 9-11. Now, your presidnet has killed over 2000 americans. WhenD the count exceeds 3000, will he finally be considered more dangerousG than Bin-Laden ? (I realise americans don't consider loss of iraqi life H to be worth anything, but in the rest of the world, they have value, andG Bush has ordered the killing of over 15,000 iraqis in his jihad against @ terrorism. That is 5 times the number of people killed on 9-11.)   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:25:38 GMT $ From: "Peter" <nospam@earthlink.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs B Message-ID: <68mZe.2718$zQ3.2335@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>  a "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message news:4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com...  > Ron Hunter wrote: I > > Well, given the lack of support from France in recent times, the next J > > time their Gallic butts need to be pulled from the fire, I say we toss@ > > them 5 gallons of gasoline and tell them to have a nice day. > ( > Friends don't let friends drive drunk. > H > The rest of the world tried to prevent Bush/Bliar/Howard from startingC > their war crime against Iraq. They didn't try hard enough.  Don't F > consider France to be your ennemy. They tried the hardest to preventJ > your country from making a very tragic mistake. Now, you're going to pay? > for your mistake not only in money, but also lack of respect.  > = > Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals.   B Look at the bright side:  historians are going to have a field day with us.   <<TERROR ALERT: ELEVATED>>   LOL    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:27:16 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <4335EEE1.3A21CFBC@teksavvy.com>   Bill Todd wrote:D > partners rather than servants).  But I do think that they owe themG > already-accrued retirement benefits, because in that case as well one J > party has *already* fulfilled its part of the bargain and it's up to the > company to fulfill theirs.    C The problem is the original promises of defined benefits packages.    F When you setup your own retirement plan, you put money in and then youG get whatever the investment yields. If you have a period of years where 3 investment returns are low, your benefits are low.    B With defined benefits, during those years, your former employer isL liable and must put in real cash. That is a huge liability for the employer.  F Defined benefits aren't exactly "already accrued retirement benefits".   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:44:06 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs * Message-ID: <U9oZe.7955$845.1268@fe03.lga>   Bill Todd wrote:$ > But I do think that they owe them H > already-accrued retirement benefits, because in that case as well one K > party has *already* fulfilled its part of the bargain and it's up to the   > company to fulfill theirs.  E I agree, but the fact is that even the government gets to change the  G rules 40 years after making the original deal, to wit: Social Security.   E In a perfect world, a deal is a deal, but the government needs to be   willing to set the example.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:30:24 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs G Message-ID: <pNKdnQZTa8hMhKvenZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    Z wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: > J >> But I do think that they owe them already-accrued retirement benefits, F >> because in that case as well one party has *already* fulfilled its D >> part of the bargain and it's up to the company to fulfill theirs. >  > G > I agree, but the fact is that even the government gets to change the  I > rules 40 years after making the original deal, to wit: Social Security.   G The question being whether the rules are changed such that people will  I not get the benefits that they have *already* accrued, or just such that  4 *future* accruals will not be the same as past ones.  E The former is treachery and/or monumental incompetence and should be  $ rewarded as such, the latter is not.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:48:02 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs = Message-ID: <d4OdnUsyq5ZpgKveRVn-iA@metrocastcablevision.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Bill Todd wrote: > D >>partners rather than servants).  But I do think that they owe themG >>already-accrued retirement benefits, because in that case as well one J >>party has *already* fulfilled its part of the bargain and it's up to the >>company to fulfill theirs. >  >  > E > The problem is the original promises of defined benefits packages.    G And that problem should be that of the people responsible for carrying  E out those promises, not of the people to whom the promises were made.    > H > When you setup your own retirement plan, you put money in and then youI > get whatever the investment yields. If you have a period of years where 5 > investment returns are low, your benefits are low.    H So what?  That's a totally different subject:  what we're talking about I here is a contract to provide specified retirement benefits based on job  G performance (typically, longevity and salary), not a private plan that   some individual might set up.   E Traditional corporate retirement plans are much more like annuities:  D you make an up-front contribution, and the company guarantees you a E specified future income based on it.  What the company does with the  I applicable assets in the meantime is their business, not yours:  if they  F appreciate unusually well, you don't get extra benefits - but if they H don't, then the company should still be on the hook to make good on its 	 promises.    > D > With defined benefits, during those years, your former employer isN > liable and must put in real cash. That is a huge liability for the employer.  G Well, duh:  if they didn't care to take on that liability, they didn't  E have to.  But given that they *did* take it on, they should be stuck  6 with it:  that, after all, is the nature of contracts.   > H > Defined benefits aren't exactly "already accrued retirement benefits".  F That's exactly what they are:  future obligations of the company that I have already been accrued by the employee's past work.  When one becomes  G vested in one's retirement plan (one incentive people used to have for  G sticking with a company for a long time), one should be able to expect  > to receive those defined benefits upon retirement - and those F obligations should have equal legal precedence with other obligations > (e.g., to creditors) which the company has elected to take on.  I In fact, it is even pretty dubious to change *future* accruable benefits  F for current employees, since they may very well have been working and E planning based on what those benefits were defined to be (i.e., plan  A changes should apply only to employees hired after those changes  A occurred).  A retirement plan is every bit as much an employment  I incentive as the many other incentives that companies traditionally have  H offered, and the fact that it is a *deferred* incentive does not change 4 that (or the company's obligation) in the slightest.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:18:21 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <433624FB.8342C683@teksavvy.com>   Bill Todd wrote:H > The question being whether the rules are changed such that people willJ > not get the benefits that they have *already* accrued, or just such that6 > *future* accruals will not be the same as past ones.  B Not quite. They are being changed from what they had been promisedD (fixed revenus no matter how the economy performs) to what they haveC accrued, with revenus varying depending on investment performance.    F If they refuse the change, then the corporation has to handle the hugeE actuarial debts of the pension fund, and that creates liability large ? enough to send corporation into bankrupcy which then allows the C coproration to liquidate the pension fund and get the government to C assume the fund's liabilities, at which point pensioners get a much D smaller portion of what they could have gotten had they accepted the defined contribution scheme.    C Now, if a corporation has to account the huge actuarial debt of its G pension fund, that is money going there which could have otherwise have 0 gone into into R&D or lower prices for products.  > Consider HP vs Dell. HP is an old company with lots of retiredE employees. Dell is a young company with very few retired company. How G can HP compete with Dell if it is saddled with pension obligations that  are huge when Dell isn't ?  D The mistake was made many many years ago when the employer agreed toG defined benefits. The question now is whether the company must continue - this mistake or if it should fix the problem.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 04:27:13 GMT $ From: "Peter" <nospam@earthlink.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs B Message-ID: <BGpZe.2777$zQ3.1631@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>  a "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message news:433624FB.8342C683@teksavvy.com...   F > The mistake was made many many years ago when the employer agreed toI > defined benefits. The question now is whether the company must continue / > this mistake or if it should fix the problem.   0 And just remember, Tuesday is Soylent Green day.   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:30:06 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)4 Subject: Re: How to make a DLT firmware update tape?2 Message-ID: <05092419300680_202499B7@antinode.org>  2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>  = > > ALP $ copy ALP$DKA0:[SMS.DLT]V151D4_1_4K.IMG _ALP$MKB400: F > > %COPY-E-READERR, error reading ALP$DKA0:[SMS.DLT]V151D4_1_4K.IMG;1< > > -RMS-W-RTB, 4096 byte record too large for user's bufferO > > %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, ALP$DKA0:[SMS.DLT]V151D4_1_4K.IMG;1 not completely copied   * > Puzzling. Just tried this here (V7.2-2): > 4 > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ copy nla0: test.dat/alloc=20480H > %COPY-S-COPIED, NLA0: copied to DKA0:[DDACHTERA]TEST.DAT;2 (0 records)* > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ set file/end test.dat> > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ set file/attr=(rfm=fix,lrl=4096) test.dat( > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ copy test.dat nla0:K > %COPY-S-COPIED, DKA0:[DDACHTERA]TEST.DAT;2 copied to NLA0: (2560 records)  > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$   > 
 > Dunno...  !    More accurate would have been:   % alp $ copy nla0: test.dat /alloc=1152 K alp $ set file /attr = (ebk: 1153, rat: none, rfm: fix, lrl: 4096) test.dat   = so that DIRE /FULL looks the same, which all works here, too.    alp $ copy /log test.dat nla0:J %COPY-S-COPIED, ALP$DKA0:[SMS.DLT]TEST.DAT;1 copied to NLA0: (144 records)  G    Of course, using the actual file instead of this all-zero file still  fails.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 13:41:58 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. ) Message-ID: <oSiZe.8308$P7.7067@fe06.lga>    David J Dachtera wrote: K >>>When business proves it can be trusted to do the right thing, then there B >>>will be no need for labor to organize to protect its interests.  I >>I guess that's one way to explain the demise of labor unions in the US.   I > Non capisco. Are you saying that business in the U.S. *CAN* be trusted? ( > Ever heard of "Enron"? ..."Tyco"? ...?  1 Ever hear "the exception doesn't prove the rule?"    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:51:51 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. = Message-ID: <opSdndDzPvDlV6jeRVn-hA@metrocastcablevision.com>    Z wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote:  > H >>>> When business proves it can be trusted to do the right thing, then 
 >>>> thereD >>>> will be no need for labor to organize to protect its interests. >  > K >>> I guess that's one way to explain the demise of labor unions in the US.  >  > J >> Non capisco. Are you saying that business in the U.S. *CAN* be trusted?) >> Ever heard of "Enron"? ..."Tyco"? ...?  >  > 3 > Ever hear "the exception doesn't prove the rule?"   H What specific evidence (as distinct from personal bias) makes you think C that these constituted exceptions rather than merely slightly more  @ egregious examples of regrettably common corporate behavior and  attitudes these days?   E Contemporary American-style management is well on the way to handing  I back the world markets that we were lucky enough to dominate for so long  I to those who actually understand the concepts of vision, investment, and  I value - often having learned those concepts from earlier incarnations of  D us.  And American stockholders seem happy to sit around and applaud A management concerned primarily with lining their own pockets and  = providing at best some hope for extremely short-term returns.   I It's going to be a pretty close race between politicians and CEOs to see  H which can take us to the bottom first.  But in both cases the fact that F we (as voters or customers/stockholders) have a great deal of control A over the situation means that we'll have only ourselves to blame.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:03:10 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. * Message-ID: <MroZe.7958$845.2024@fe03.lga>   Bill Todd wrote:K >>> Non capisco. Are you saying that business in the U.S. *CAN* be trusted? * >>> Ever heard of "Enron"? ..."Tyco"? ...?  4 >> Ever hear "the exception doesn't prove the rule?"  J > What specific evidence (as distinct from personal bias) makes you think E > that these constituted exceptions rather than merely slightly more  B > egregious examples of regrettably common corporate behavior and  > attitudes these days?    The quantity, obviously.  G Yes, Tyco and Enron are egregious examples of corporate crime, but its  G wrong for you to tar the whole of Corporate America with no supporting   evidence at all.   That's just not fair, Bill.     K > It's going to be a pretty close race between politicians and CEOs to see  J > which can take us to the bottom first.  But in both cases the fact that H > we (as voters or customers/stockholders) have a great deal of control C > over the situation means that we'll have only ourselves to blame.   H Yes, yes, I know ... the whole nation is going to Hell in a handbasket, D the sky is falling and the end of the world is near. You'll have to 9 excuse me if I don't drink from that pitcher of Kool Aid.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:59:33 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. = Message-ID: <7cudnco9s6s7vaveRVn-oA@metrocastcablevision.com>    Z wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: > L >>>> Non capisco. Are you saying that business in the U.S. *CAN* be trusted?+ >>>> Ever heard of "Enron"? ..."Tyco"? ...?  >  > 5 >>> Ever hear "the exception doesn't prove the rule?"  >  > E >> What specific evidence (as distinct from personal bias) makes you  G >> think that these constituted exceptions rather than merely slightly  H >> more egregious examples of regrettably common corporate behavior and  >> attitudes these days? >  >  > The quantity, obviously. > I > Yes, Tyco and Enron are egregious examples of corporate crime, but its  I > wrong for you to tar the whole of Corporate America with no supporting   > evidence at all.  H Don't keep trying so hard to be a moron, Z;  you've already done a more  than adequate job already.  H All the evidence that you could possibly need is right under your nose: 1   you simply choose not to see it for what it is.    >  > That's just not fair, Bill.  >  > H >> It's going to be a pretty close race between politicians and CEOs to J >> see which can take us to the bottom first.  But in both cases the fact F >> that we (as voters or customers/stockholders) have a great deal of L >> control over the situation means that we'll have only ourselves to blame. >  > J > Yes, yes, I know ... the whole nation is going to Hell in a handbasket, F > the sky is falling and the end of the world is near. You'll have to ; > excuse me if I don't drink from that pitcher of Kool Aid.   C No, I will not:  there's no excuse for idiocy when it's apparently  F neither congenital nor due to insurmountable environmental conditions.  I You seem to be an idiot as a matter of choice, and will therefore richly  F deserve the consequences that you reap from it (as will so many other H Americans).  I regret that others far less responsible will also likely G be caught up in those consequences, and hope that they won't waste any  D effort or sympathy on the likes of you while they're trying to stay  afloat themselves.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2005 15:48:58 -0700 From: contracer11@gmail.com  Subject: Re: Kea and VMSC Message-ID: <1127602138.617381.130300@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    Jack Peacock wrote: A > "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message ' > news:433352D7.9DF9CA99@comcast.net...   > > contracer11@gmail.com wrote: > >>I > >> I'm using Kea for VAX emulator to access our VAX/VMS system. Can you C > >> tell me how ( in a procedure) can I get default background and J > >> foreground color ? I need create a procedure to get default FG and BG > >> KEA's color.  > > J > > Not quite sure what you're up to there since screen colors in terminalF > > programs tend to be a matter of personal preference, due mostly to$ > > biological and ergonomic issues. > > K > I assume the original poster is looking for an ESC sequence to return the K > current color settings.  I just checked the KEA VT420 (v5.10) ESC strings E > for Terminal Reports, doesn't appear to be one that retrieves color N > settings.  Since the VT420 didn't support color I wouldn't expect a terminalE > reports for it.   Was there a VT240/340 terminal reports string for  > retrieving colors? >   Jack Peacock    A Exactly, I need KEA sequence to get current color settings, but I  didn't find it in KEA manuals...  Thanks to all...   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Sep 2005 20:22:08 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: RE: Revival of Alpha?* Message-ID: <4335b570@news.langstoeger.at>  | In article <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB70BE55@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes:G >So you are speaking of your experience of about 15 years ago (microvax H >timeframe). And you think this qualifies you to describe OpenVMS today? > 	 >ROTFL ..   O But this is typical for people, who haven't seen VMS ads for over a decade now. H Don't laugh at him, better change the way your own company treats vms...   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:34:52 -0400 0 From: BRAD <bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?0 Message-ID: <xZqdnfn9-vzNAajeRVn-tw@comcast.com>   Main, Kerry wrote: >>-----Original Message-----) >>From: Kevin Handy [mailto:kth@srv.net]  " >>Sent: September 23, 2005 7:53 PM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com   >>Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha? <snip>8 >>I once tried to get UCX for a MicroVax 3100, and after7 >>a very large number of phone calls (starting with the 1 >>Compaq number from their VMS web page, and then 4 >>being passed from number to number to number ...),: >>was quoted $5000 per user. When I tried to call back and9 >>confirm, the person who gave the quote no longer worked 0 >>there, and nobody else even knew what VMS was.: >>Several other attempts were an even more dismal failure,7 >>usually involving numerous "does that run on windows"  >>questions. >>< >>I shudder just thinking about setting up a new VMS system,9 >>after all the problems I had in the past.  Even if they 9 >>aren't trying to scare away customers, they are doing a  >>very good job at it. >> >  > H > So you are speaking of your experience of about 15 years ago (microvaxI > timeframe). And you think this qualifies you to describe OpenVMS today?  >   B Please note that the OP was referring to COMPAQ, not Digital.  He I apparently had an MV3100 between four and six years ago, not the 15 with   which you wish to belittle him.   G I had similar horrible experiences with COMPAQ during that time frame,  G and can understand his frustration.  And yes, unfortunately, this does  F qualify him (and others) to speak in this manner, because the current I owners of VMS have done _nothing_ to change this perception, even though  2 they have had years in which to make such changes.  H You _must_ listen to your customers if you wish to serve them - rule #1 H in business.  Publically laughing at them does you (and your company) a  great disservice.   
 > ROTFL ..  I Your competitors (IBM, SUN, and even Dell) are the ones who are _really_   ROTFL, at your expense.   6 > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.  ' True enough- but who will ever know it?    --  . Bradford J. Hamilton "All opinions are my own"@                       "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' with @"=                       "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job"    ------------------------------   Date: 24 Sep 2005 21:29:12 GMT$ From: "Doc." <Doc@openvms-rocks.com> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?7 Message-ID: <Xns96DBEEEC48B84DCovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   9 "Alex Daniels" <AlexNoSpamDaniels@themail.co.uk> wrote in / news:4334b09f$0$22097$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk:    / > "Kevin Handy" <kth@srv.net> wrote in message  4 > news:1127519487_10701@spool6-east.superfeed.net...  = >> I shudder just thinking about setting up a new VMS system, , >> after all the problems I had in the past. > E > You've referred a couple of times to 'VAX', have you even installed  > VMS on an AXP or I64 box?  > G > I certainly don't think it's any more difficult than installing linux E > (which you appear to be running/posting from), and installing it on ! > VAX is only marginally more so.    I'm with Alex on this one.  J Installing OpenVMS on an Alpha system is dead easy.  I assume the Itanium J systems are similarly idiot-proof (for suitable values of idiot).  I plan J to replace my ancient AlphaServer 2100 sometime in the next year, and I'm = sure I could do the install, write a single side of paper of  D instructions, and get my ten year old son to do an install after me.  J Installing Windows is more grief because it doesn't ask all the questions G up front and get on with it.  Bill had it designed to keep you sitting  J through 30-60 minutes of adverts.  And sure, I can install Linux, but why H should I need to worry about chopping a disk into bits?  Storage should H only be complicated when you've got sophisticated hardware like RAID or  SAN.     Doc.   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Sep 2005 21:50:22 GMT$ From: "Doc." <Doc@openvms-rocks.com> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?7 Message-ID: <Xns96DBF2829C061DCovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   - "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in 1 news:kObZe.2653$0c3.1138@bignews5.bellsouth.net:    A > I couldn't say new customers, even though when we sell licensed . > machines most of them are now OpenVMS boxes. > E > I actually thought we did more Tru64 boxen but after looking at the G > amount we have apid in OpenVMS license purchases, the costs speak for  > them selves  > G > Probably, of the 100+ systems we shipped last month, 60 were OpenVMS, ( > and 30 of those were licensed systems.8 > The others were OpenVMS Hobbyists and spares companies  D Glad to hear you're doing good business, although I'd like to see a ) higher professional/hobbyist ratio there.   D I'll be looking for a newer Alpha machine sometime, but I know what G Belgian customs can be like.  Do Island deal with all that nonsense so  I that I can just pay a bill and get a box delivered to my door?  I'd like  F to give you the business, particularly considering your very generous  donation to Deathrow.   G Oh, and a challenge. ;)  Can you get a Thai LK keyboard for PCs?  HP's  C website makes me sick looking for anything and the other option is  E waiting until I'm next in the country and trying to find a HP dealer.      Doc.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:13:39 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?: Message-ID: <TYlZe.5315$lL1.579@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   Doc. wrote:   F > I'll be looking for a newer Alpha machine sometime, but I know what I > Belgian customs can be like.  Do Island deal with all that nonsense so  K > that I can just pay a bill and get a box delivered to my door?  I'd like  H > to give you the business, particularly considering your very generous  > donation to Deathrow.   I  From the couple of times I've ordered stuff in the UK from Island I can  H tell you its about as complicated as ordering pizza and almost as fast. G Even arrived with a UK power cable. 48 hours from order to delivery in   Europe is possible.    > I > Oh, and a challenge. ;)  Can you get a Thai LK keyboard for PCs?  HP's  E > website makes me sick looking for anything and the other option is  G > waiting until I'm next in the country and trying to find a HP dealer.  >  >  > Doc.   --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:28:18 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: Revival of Alpha?R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB70BE5B@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message----- > From: BRAD=20 H > [mailto:bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt@atarelrim03.atl.hp.com]=20" > Sent: September 24, 2005 2:35 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com   > Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > >>-----Original Message------ > >>From: Kevin Handy [mailto:kth@srv.net]=20 $ > >>Sent: September 23, 2005 7:53 PM > >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " > >>Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha? > <snip>: > >>I once tried to get UCX for a MicroVax 3100, and after9 > >>a very large number of phone calls (starting with the 3 > >>Compaq number from their VMS web page, and then 6 > >>being passed from number to number to number ...),< > >>was quoted $5000 per user. When I tried to call back and; > >>confirm, the person who gave the quote no longer worked 2 > >>there, and nobody else even knew what VMS was.< > >>Several other attempts were an even more dismal failure,9 > >>usually involving numerous "does that run on windows"  > >>questions. > >>> > >>I shudder just thinking about setting up a new VMS system,; > >>after all the problems I had in the past.  Even if they ; > >>aren't trying to scare away customers, they are doing a  > >>very good job at it. > >> > >=20 > >=20? > > So you are speaking of your experience of about 15 years=20  > ago (microvax ? > > timeframe). And you think this qualifies you to describe=20  > OpenVMS today? > >=20 >=20F > Please note that the OP was referring to COMPAQ, not Digital.  He=20A > apparently had an MV3100 between four and six years ago, not=20  > the 15 with=20! > which you wish to belittle him.  >=20? > I had similar horrible experiences with COMPAQ during that=20  > time frame,=20A > and can understand his frustration.  And yes, unfortunately,=20  > this does=20J > qualify him (and others) to speak in this manner, because the current=20A > owners of VMS have done _nothing_ to change this perception,=20  > even though=204 > they have had years in which to make such changes. >=20B > You _must_ listen to your customers if you wish to serve them=20 > - rule #1=20A > in business.  Publically laughing at them does you (and your=20  > company) a=20  > great disservice.  >=20  A Wow - this is really enlightening. After 28 years of working with B enterprise Customers in the field, this is something I never heard0 before. Thx for this great advice about rule #1.   :-) :-)   E Lets be real. Yes, there were issues with the merger in terms of Cust = support. However, do you think this was unique to OpenVMS?=20   G What about the Tru64 Cust's who were sent to HP-UX because some level I G support resource heard "UNIX". Or the HP-UX calls diverted to Tru64, or  the NSK calls diverted to ???   B I am not saying the support should not have been better because itH should have been, but that's hindsight now. Do calls still get routed toE the wrong resource today? Absolutely. However, the number of these is  much, much lower today.   E The fact that you can still actually log calls at all for these older D devices (even if best effort) is a pretty good testament to OpenVMS.  @ Wrt to the competition, I would just love to hear a Dell supportB resource's response to "Hi, I have a PC386 100Mhz with 32MB memoryH running Windows NT3.51 and I would like to log a call for support..".=20   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:23:48 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?, Message-ID: <43362642.4087259D@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:D > I am not saying the support should not have been better because itJ > should have been, but that's hindsight now. Do calls still get routed toG > the wrong resource today? Absolutely. However, the number of these is  > much, much lower today.   C Compaq was a wintel company without any notion of knowing who their H customers were. So when it bought Digital, it was quite a shock and once& can understand why they were clueless.  E HP *was* at one time an enterprise company. It had no excuses for not F properly handling the purchased of other enterprise products and theirG support.  The problem is that HP had focused on its support-less wintel B business and forgotten about its serious business. (it had shed itG original self when it spun off Agilent). The enterprise business should A have been included in Agilent because that is where the notion of  "Quality" was.    B > Wrt to the competition, I would just love to hear a Dell supportD > resource's response to "Hi, I have a PC386 100Mhz with 32MB memoryG > running Windows NT3.51 and I would like to log a call for support..".     G When you consider the level fo support Dell provides for wintel crap, I G wouldn't be surprised if you could get the same level of support as for G current machines. The drone will punch up your computer model and get a F database of texts , drivers and patches that had been written when the machine was current.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:53:50 -0400 0 From: BRAD <bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt>8 Subject: Re: Semi-OT: eXcursion Server in Startup Group?0 Message-ID: <462dnauSHrJPM6jeRVn-1A@comcast.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: , > O.k. Here's sort of an off-the-wall query: > ; > I'm wanting to do some more work on further developing an J > install-from-CD distro. of Samba V2.8-2. I'd like to be able to run SWATJ > so I can provide a more usable config file template. That means I need X8 > on the PC to run SWAT (the little Alpha is "headless")  F Question - why do you need X to run SWAT?  Pointing a browser at port H 901 (<http://rabbit:901/> , for example) is sufficient for me to access H the SWAT interface on my Alpha from within my home network.  Of course, 8 I could be completely misunderstanding your intention... <snip> --  . Bradford J. Hamilton "All opinions are my own"@                       "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' with @"   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:53:05 +0000 (UTC) . From: klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)B Subject: Re: TCP/IP Config Setting to set Network speed to 100Mbps. Message-ID: <dh4ar1$7vl$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> writes in article <LtGYe.113785$G8.18000@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> dated Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:44:59 GMT: I >You can have a lot of trouble with auto-negotiation, especially with the  >cheaper unmanaged switches.  H In my experience, you can have a lot of trouble with the cheap unmanagedI switches if you *don't* use auto-negotiation.  I got bitten when I set an K alpha to 100-full and after some very bad performance found that the switch K (SMC, I think) defaults to 100-half if no auto-negotiation is done.  When I 8 used AUTO-NEG, they had no problem negotiating 100-full.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:01:15 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>B Subject: Re: TCP/IP Config Setting to set Network speed to 100Mbps; Message-ID: <fNlZe.5266$lL1.1787@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    Keith A. Lewis wrote:  > "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> writes in article <LtGYe.113785$G8.18000@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk> dated Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:44:59 GMT:  > J >>You can have a lot of trouble with auto-negotiation, especially with the >>cheaper unmanaged switches.  >  > J > In my experience, you can have a lot of trouble with the cheap unmanagedK > switches if you *don't* use auto-negotiation.  I got bitten when I set an M > alpha to 100-full and after some very bad performance found that the switch M > (SMC, I think) defaults to 100-half if no auto-negotiation is done.  When I : > used AUTO-NEG, they had no problem negotiating 100-full.  G That's why you should lock *both* ends to 100 full duplex if possible.  G But, given the differences in behaviour across different switches, I'd  E also go with stick with what works for you. If that's auto then fine.   I I have seen real problems caused by mistakenly locking the client end to  8 full duplex when the other end was a hub not a switch...   --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.535 ************************