1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 25 Sep 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 536       Contents:4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobsH Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. Re: Kea and VMS  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha? / Re: Semi-OT: eXcursion Server in Startup Group? $ VMS consultants/experts  please read' Re: VMS consultants/experts please read ' Re: VMS consultants/experts please read   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 06:24:05 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <ijgcj15ed1h1fc2907g868q9cestnq90r8@4ax.com>  E On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:28:11 -0400, Blash <blash1@comcast.net> wrote:   " >kashe@sonic.net eloquently posts: > H >> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:47:37 -0400, Blash <blash1@comcast.net> wrote: >>   >>> Arthur says: >>> : >>>> Now lets hear the roar from the idots in the audience >>> " >>> Right.....c'mon you  i d o t s >>  ) >> Right, lower-than-whaleshit typo nazi.  > J >    If this crap wasn't cross-posted all over the net, your short-comings$ >would not have been exposed........ >    	Did you have a point in mind?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 06:26:57 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <2ngcj15rgsa0hcffrfpustr0n4okta1jih@4ax.com>  , On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:27:16 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:    >Bill Todd wrote: E >> partners rather than servants).  But I do think that they owe them H >> already-accrued retirement benefits, because in that case as well oneK >> party has *already* fulfilled its part of the bargain and it's up to the  >> company to fulfill theirs.  >  > D >The problem is the original promises of defined benefits packages.  > G >When you setup your own retirement plan, you put money in and then you H >get whatever the investment yields. If you have a period of years where4 >investment returns are low, your benefits are low.  > C >With defined benefits, during those years, your former employer is M >liable and must put in real cash. That is a huge liability for the employer.  > G >Defined benefits aren't exactly "already accrued retirement benefits".   - 	A contract is a contract, unless you have an E administration-friendly bankruptcy judge to toss it in the toilet for  you.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 06:42:05 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <bugcj1pvcicuifd1vem7801d8bm721n14h@4ax.com>  F On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:48:02 -0400, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   >JF Mezei wrote: >> Bill Todd wrote:  >>  E >>>partners rather than servants).  But I do think that they owe them H >>>already-accrued retirement benefits, because in that case as well oneK >>>party has *already* fulfilled its part of the bargain and it's up to the  >>>company to fulfill theirs.  >>   >>   >>  F >> The problem is the original promises of defined benefits packages.  > H >And that problem should be that of the people responsible for carrying F >out those promises, not of the people to whom the promises were made. >  >>  I >> When you setup your own retirement plan, you put money in and then you J >> get whatever the investment yields. If you have a period of years where6 >> investment returns are low, your benefits are low.  > I >So what?  That's a totally different subject:  what we're talking about  J >here is a contract to provide specified retirement benefits based on job H >performance (typically, longevity and salary), not a private plan that  >some individual might set up. > F >Traditional corporate retirement plans are much more like annuities: E >you make an up-front contribution, and the company guarantees you a  F >specified future income based on it.  What the company does with the J >applicable assets in the meantime is their business, not yours:  if they G >appreciate unusually well, you don't get extra benefits - but if they  I >don't, then the company should still be on the hook to make good on its  
 >promises. >  >>  E >> With defined benefits, during those years, your former employer is O >> liable and must put in real cash. That is a huge liability for the employer.  > H >Well, duh:  if they didn't care to take on that liability, they didn't F >have to.  But given that they *did* take it on, they should be stuck 7 >with it:  that, after all, is the nature of contracts.  >  >>  I >> Defined benefits aren't exactly "already accrued retirement benefits".  > G >That's exactly what they are:  future obligations of the company that  J >have already been accrued by the employee's past work.  When one becomes H >vested in one's retirement plan (one incentive people used to have for H >sticking with a company for a long time), one should be able to expect ? >to receive those defined benefits upon retirement - and those  G >obligations should have equal legal precedence with other obligations  ? >(e.g., to creditors) which the company has elected to take on.  > J >In fact, it is even pretty dubious to change *future* accruable benefits G >for current employees, since they may very well have been working and  F >planning based on what those benefits were defined to be (i.e., plan B >changes should apply only to employees hired after those changes B >occurred).  A retirement plan is every bit as much an employment J >incentive as the many other incentives that companies traditionally have I >offered, and the fact that it is a *deferred* incentive does not change  5 >that (or the company's obligation) in the slightest.  >  >- bill   ; 	Excellent statement. All we usually hear is the other side E crying poor-mouth about how harsh  life is and how they'll take their C marbles to a bankruptcy judge if the workers don't knuckle under so ( they can have their platinum parachutes.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:46:03 +0200   From: "Aka" <aka@heaven.invalid>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs / Message-ID: <11jcht87raofc7@corp.supernews.com>   B In Saint Louis we have seen the great results of the American way  of life.? No forward planning (water protection, ghetto forming, elderly  = care) - just look at those silly levees to know what America  @ stands for: a fast buck and lots of vapid sanctimonious praying  to a Coca Cola god.    Aka    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 06:53:02 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <l5icj15lrnrk8p5br315vkgq7mulc0frhn@4ax.com>  , On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:18:21 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:    >Bill Todd wrote: I >> The question being whether the rules are changed such that people will K >> not get the benefits that they have *already* accrued, or just such that 7 >> *future* accruals will not be the same as past ones.  > C >Not quite. They are being changed from what they had been promised E >(fixed revenus no matter how the economy performs) to what they have D >accrued, with revenus varying depending on investment performance.  > G >If they refuse the change, then the corporation has to handle the huge F >actuarial debts of the pension fund, and that creates liability large@ >enough to send corporation into bankrupcy which then allows theD >coproration to liquidate the pension fund and get the government toD >assume the fund's liabilities, at which point pensioners get a muchE >smaller portion of what they could have gotten had they accepted the  >defined contribution scheme.  >  > D >Now, if a corporation has to account the huge actuarial debt of itsH >pension fund, that is money going there which could have otherwise have1 >gone into into R&D or lower prices for products.  > ? >Consider HP vs Dell. HP is an old company with lots of retired F >employees. Dell is a young company with very few retired company. HowH >can HP compete with Dell if it is saddled with pension obligations that >are huge when Dell isn't ?   ? 	Poor babies. Maybe they should have been more Agilent in years  past.   :-)      > E >The mistake was made many many years ago when the employer agreed to H >defined benefits. The question now is whether the company must continue. >this mistake or if it should fix the problem.  ; 	It should honor its obligations. Will you make me the same @ offer if I become unable to make my mortgage payments? Would you< support me in stiffing the lender? Hell no, and you know it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:02:27 +1200 $ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 5 Message-ID: <VHtZe.14231$iM2.1176542@news.xtra.co.nz>   % <mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message = news:1127593125.251640.154200@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  > > > I > > The wisdom of laying off employees to improve the bottom line, aside, H > > the thing that amazes me is that people somehow think a company OWES/ > > them a job.  WHERE did this idea come from?   H > 2) Yes a company who is increasing its profits as HP is, thanks to the > labor ' > of its employees owes them something,   , Like salary? And other parts of pay package?& Sure, but once that's done, that's it.  E > When you are the CEO of a company at the origin of some of the most  > brilliant G > technologies in the IT industry like workstations (Apollo), Ethernet, B > Vaxes, Alpha, Tru64, OpenVMS (Digital), Non-Stop Kernel (Tandem)  9 Vaxes? Alpha? Tru64? VMS? Are you seriously claiming that 5 HP was at the origin of those brilliant technologies?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:26:17 +1200 $ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 5 Message-ID: <f2uZe.14238$iM2.1177692@news.xtra.co.nz>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com...  = > Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals.   ; 1: To declare someone a criminal (let alone a war criminal) , requires a court and jury - you are neither.  6 2: In fact, the claim you've made is likely to qualify< as an offence itself - libel at least. It's up to the courts
 to decide.  / 3: Don't you think that when millions of people 1 vote one way and you don't agree with the outcome 2 there is just a slim chance that you may be wrong?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:48:24 GMT $ From: "Peter" <nospam@earthlink.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs A Message-ID: <InuZe.3367$oc.1322@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>   _ "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com> wrote in message news:f2uZe.14238$iM2.1177692@news.xtra.co.nz... < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message( > news:4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com... > ? > > Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals.  > = > 1: To declare someone a criminal (let alone a war criminal) . > requires a court and jury - you are neither. > 8 > 2: In fact, the claim you've made is likely to qualify> > as an offence itself - libel at least. It's up to the courts > to decide. > 1 > 3: Don't you think that when millions of people 3 > vote one way and you don't agree with the outcome 4 > there is just a slim chance that you may be wrong?  = Pope John Paul II repeatedly said Bush's invasion of Iraq was A "neither legally nor morally justifiable".  He therefore declared  Bush to be a war criminal.  / If he was ok with this pronouncement, I am too.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 04:42:48 -0500 ' From: Ron Hunter <rphunter@charter.net> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <tiuZe.13693$L45.13480@fe07.lga>   Bill Todd wrote: > Ron Hunter wrote:  >  > ...  > I >> The wisdom of laying off employees to improve the bottom line, aside,  H >> the thing that amazes me is that people somehow think a company OWES . >> them a job.  WHERE did this idea come from? > C > At least in this case, quite possibly from the fact that someone  H > *actively compensated* the company specifically to provide those jobs. > B > Absent such considerations, I myself certainly don't think that G > companies 'owe' their employees jobs (though it can provide valuable  D > incentives for employee loyalty and productivity to consider them E > partners rather than servants).  But I do think that they owe them  H > already-accrued retirement benefits, because in that case as well one K > party has *already* fulfilled its part of the bargain and it's up to the   > company to fulfill theirs. >  > - billH I certainly agree about the retirement benefits.  I got my pension even L though the company I worked for went bankrupt, and 'disposed of its assets'.   --    Ron Hunter  rphunter@charter.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 22:35:27 +1200 $ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 5 Message-ID: <53vZe.14249$iM2.1178190@news.xtra.co.nz>   / "Peter" <nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message ; news:InuZe.3367$oc.1322@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...   ? > Pope John Paul II repeatedly said Bush's invasion of Iraq was C > "neither legally nor morally justifiable".  He therefore declared  > Bush to be a war criminal. > 1 > If he was ok with this pronouncement, I am too.   - You may be ok with this pronouncment but I am 5 not. Will you really accept it if you were pronounced 0 a thief by your local parish preacher? Won't you/ demand a court hearing? If you don't (or can't)  then forget the rule of law.  5 On the other hand, this is getting way, way off-topic 5 for all the groups, so let's stop it here and take it  somewhere else.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Sep 2005 03:47:59 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs C Message-ID: <1127645279.632068.266430@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   
 Lurker wrote:   ; > Vaxes? Alpha? Tru64? VMS? Are you seriously claiming that 7 > HP was at the origin of those brilliant technologies?     ( Of course don't you known that HP is the  result of the buyout or merge of  ) HP + APollo + Digital + Tandem + Compaq ?    I wonder who is serious here   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:27:47 -0700 8 From: "Adam Russell" <adamrussell@sbcglobal.net.invalid>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <3po11bFbbkqpU1@individual.net>   0 "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com> wrote in message / news:f2uZe.14238$iM2.1177692@news.xtra.co.nz... < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message( > news:4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com... > > >> Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals. > = > 1: To declare someone a criminal (let alone a war criminal) . > requires a court and jury - you are neither. > 8 > 2: In fact, the claim you've made is likely to qualify> > as an offence itself - libel at least. It's up to the courts > to decide.  L If Bush feels that it is libel then he has the right to sue for libel.  You L have *no* standing to make legal complaint on Bush's behalf.  Regardless of M whether Bush has or hasnt followed international law, or whether he needs to   at this point.     ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:29:27 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ; Message-ID: <HfAZe.4971$Am6.1116@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   1 "Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> wrote in message  + news:tqidnSOYT686E6neRVn-oA@giganews.com...  >d b turner wrote:H >> Hell, after 1945 when AMERICA and the UK, Canada, etc.  bailed FranceH >> out of occupation you would think it would be gracious to an American >> corporation such as HP.  I France gave HP lots of money in return for creating jobs.  Now they have  J axed the jobs and intend to keep the money.  I would be pissed off at any D foreign company doing that with british money ESPECIALLY the bloody K americans.Some utter wanker in a suit and a shed load of lawyers would get  I huge bonuses for coming for a scheme like that and getting away with it.  L You are hereby notified that any attempt to claim usa bailed out britain or I that you won the war on your own will grant all offenders a month in the  H honourable killfile.  Next to measekite the only other person from this  group in the file.     ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:42:40 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ; Message-ID: <4sAZe.4980$Am6.1530@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   & <mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message = news:1127572673.032008.162350@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...  >  > We Are All French  : > i > http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2005/commentary05092309.htm?logvisit=y&source=estmarhln001999&npu=y   L I quite agree with the american policy on oil being wrong.  If they put the I tax on fuel that they do on europe and use it wisely such as schools and  D hospitals they would have a surplus overnight.  Instead of medicare K subscriptions you pay for these things at the gas pump.  Same with college  M fees.    However no government that implimented this tax would last.  Hybrid  L cars and alternative fuel sources such as lpg conversions and vegetable oil K in diesel cars has been driven by the high cost of petrol and diesel.  For  I the single worst polluter of the world to cut back on consumption due to  8 economic pressure would extend the life of oil reserves.  J During the evacuation from 'Rita' foreign journalists noted the number of  SUVs in the traffic queue.     ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:46:40 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ; Message-ID: <QvAZe.4984$Am6.4445@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   5 "Ron Hunter" <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in message  & news:r4eZe.13058$L45.10075@fe07.lga... > mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote:  >> d b turner wrote:L >>> I was in France about 4 weeks ago - beautiful along the midi-pyrenees -  >>> but L >>> the people were the rudest, most unfriendly people - and I speak French  >>> so >>> they >>> hasve no excuse. >>> < >>> (I am a Brit -mum is French Dad Brit - I live in GA USA. >>>  >>> : >>> Even the food has gotten lame since my last trip in 98L >>> And for those that are blinkered about the Frenchman's animosity towards) >>> their saviours - it's all bloody true 6 >>> Theyt hate the British and theyt detest Americans. >> >> >>E >> This thread has nothing to do with your racism against the French.  >>A >> The truth is that HP is showing the same lack of real strategy 
 >> in the US.  >>= >> Our US HP friends are also laid off because of the current 7 >> trends of brilliant strategists backed up by no less 3 >> brilliant stock analysts who have no other ideas " >> to try to help the stock price. >>* >> No doing a substraction is not a vision >> nor a strategy. >> >>- >> One difference though : French laws permit + >> a strike whereas it is almost impossible  >> within HP in the US.  >>* >> When a company claims all the time that2 >> Ethic is important to it and that its employees2 >> are its best asset, it should not be authorized/ >> to lay off while increasing at the same time  >> its profits and distributing % >> millions of $ to its top managers.  >>L > The wisdom of laying off employees to improve the bottom line, aside, the J > thing that amazes me is that people somehow think a company OWES them a & > job.  WHERE did this idea come from?  H There are all kinds of subsidies and tax breaks given by governments to L create factories and thus jobs.  If you then take the money and run what do L you expect a government to do.  In france the past is forgotten, you can be M an ex nazi industrialist who made munitions for the nazi war machine but you  H are welcome here.  In france the past is forgotten, fought in two world M wars, want a asylum, well you can sod off.  If you want to come to france to  4 live and work you have to bring a factory with you.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:53:40 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ; Message-ID: <oCAZe.4994$Am6.4938@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:433624FB.8342C683@teksavvy.com...   > @ > Consider HP vs Dell. HP is an old company with lots of retiredG > employees. Dell is a young company with very few retired company. How I > can HP compete with Dell if it is saddled with pension obligations that  > are huge when Dell isn't ?  K That means there have been huge numbers of employees paying into a pension  F fund.  In order to be eligible you have to pay in for one the company H doesn't hand them out for free.  That money isn't to be invested in the I company itself the money is merely managed by the company it isn't to be  M used as a reserve bank account.  Look at the trouble robert maxwell got into   for doing just that.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:06:21 GMT ' From: Charles <ckraft@SAMTRAP.west.net> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <h5mdj11g426tba1rvdlnvmb112vhms510g@4ax.com>  E On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 04:42:48 -0500, Ron Hunter <rphunter@charter.net>  wrote:   >Bill Todd wrote:  >> Ron Hunter wrote: >>   >> ... >>  J >>> The wisdom of laying off employees to improve the bottom line, aside, I >>> the thing that amazes me is that people somehow think a company OWES  / >>> them a job.  WHERE did this idea come from?  >>  D >> At least in this case, quite possibly from the fact that someone I >> *actively compensated* the company specifically to provide those jobs.  >>  C >> Absent such considerations, I myself certainly don't think that  H >> companies 'owe' their employees jobs (though it can provide valuable E >> incentives for employee loyalty and productivity to consider them  F >> partners rather than servants).  But I do think that they owe them I >> already-accrued retirement benefits, because in that case as well one  L >> party has *already* fulfilled its part of the bargain and it's up to the  >> company to fulfill theirs.  >>  	 >> - bill I >I certainly agree about the retirement benefits.  I got my pension even  M >though the company I worked for went bankrupt, and 'disposed of its assets'.     A You are fortunate.  what you experienced is the way it should be. > Check out what happened to the folks that worked for Polaroid.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:59:09 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ; Message-ID: <xHAZe.4999$Am6.2542@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   0 "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com> wrote in message / news:f2uZe.14238$iM2.1177692@news.xtra.co.nz... < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message( > news:4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com... > > >> Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals. > = > 1: To declare someone a criminal (let alone a war criminal) . > requires a court and jury - you are neither. > 8 > 2: In fact, the claim you've made is likely to qualify> > as an offence itself - libel at least. It's up to the courts > to decide. > 1 > 3: Don't you think that when millions of people 3 > vote one way and you don't agree with the outcome 4 > there is just a slim chance that you may be wrong?  J Millions of people voted the otherway too.  It wasn't exactly a landslide L victory.  The first time round bush actually got less votes but the strange $ rules involved meant he won anyway.    ------------------------------   Date: 25 Sep 2005 14:44:36 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. + Message-ID: <3pnrekFb0c85U1@individual.net>   * In article <9NqZe.9287$eH2.6683@fe02.lga>, 	Z <Z@no.spam> writes: > Bill Todd wrote:G >>>> What specific evidence (as distinct from personal bias) makes you  I >>>> think that these constituted exceptions rather than merely slightly  J >>>> more egregious examples of regrettably common corporate behavior and  >>>> attitudes these days? >  >>> The quantity, obviously. >>> K >>> Yes, Tyco and Enron are egregious examples of corporate crime, but its  K >>> wrong for you to tar the whole of Corporate America with no supporting   >>> evidence at all. > K >> All the evidence that you could possibly need is right under your nose:  3 >>  you simply choose not to see it for what it is.  >  > And what evidence is that? > G > All you've done so far is hold up two very bad examples of corporate  I > behavior, wave your hands about, toss out a few insults and try to tar  G > all of Corporate America with Tyco/Enron labels, with no evidence or    > similar wrongdoing whatsoever. > K > Make your case, Bill! Cite "all the evidence" that you speak of - if you  G > can. If you can't, then maybe you should just stick to calling other   > people "morons."  F But you missed the point.  Everyone who does not share his enlightenedF position is a moron.  He has made this quite clear in the past and the< fact that you failed to grasp it just proves his point.  :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:15:32 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. + Message-ID: <4336DB34.EDA554E2@comcast.net>    Z wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote: M > >>>When business proves it can be trusted to do the right thing, then there D > >>>will be no need for labor to organize to protect its interests. > K > >>I guess that's one way to explain the demise of labor unions in the US.  > K > > Non capisco. Are you saying that business in the U.S. *CAN* be trusted? * > > Ever heard of "Enron"? ..."Tyco"? ...? > 3 > Ever hear "the exception doesn't prove the rule?"   E As Bill Todd suggests: these (and the others implied by the ellipsis) C were not "exceptions", merely the ones "dumb enough to get caught".   C ...or did you think Sarbanes/Oxley was inspired by a few "egregious  exceptions"?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:18:09 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. + Message-ID: <4336DBD1.589EFA12@comcast.net>    Z wrote: >  > Bill Todd wrote:M > >>> Non capisco. Are you saying that business in the U.S. *CAN* be trusted? , > >>> Ever heard of "Enron"? ..."Tyco"? ...? > 6 > >> Ever hear "the exception doesn't prove the rule?" > K > > What specific evidence (as distinct from personal bias) makes you think F > > that these constituted exceptions rather than merely slightly moreC > > egregious examples of regrettably common corporate behavior and  > > attitudes these days?  >  > The quantity, obviously. > H > Yes, Tyco and Enron are egregious examples of corporate crime, but itsH > wrong for you to tar the whole of Corporate America with no supporting > evidence at all. >  > That's just not fair, Bill.   D Googling for "sarbanes/Oxley" should resolve any conflicts you might find.   L > > It's going to be a pretty close race between politicians and CEOs to seeK > > which can take us to the bottom first.  But in both cases the fact that I > > we (as voters or customers/stockholders) have a great deal of control E > > over the situation means that we'll have only ourselves to blame.  > I > Yes, yes, I know ... the whole nation is going to Hell in a handbasket, E > the sky is falling and the end of the world is near. You'll have to ; > excuse me if I don't drink from that pitcher of Kool Aid.   C Better that one than the one you propose, Mr. Scrooge (unreformed).    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:22:35 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. + Message-ID: <4336DCDB.BCA85F4F@comcast.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > , > In article <9NqZe.9287$eH2.6683@fe02.lga>, >         Z <Z@no.spam> writes:  > > Bill Todd wrote:H > >>>> What specific evidence (as distinct from personal bias) makes youJ > >>>> think that these constituted exceptions rather than merely slightlyK > >>>> more egregious examples of regrettably common corporate behavior and  > >>>> attitudes these days? > >  > >>> The quantity, obviously. > >>> L > >>> Yes, Tyco and Enron are egregious examples of corporate crime, but itsL > >>> wrong for you to tar the whole of Corporate America with no supporting > >>> evidence at all. > > L > >> All the evidence that you could possibly need is right under your nose:5 > >>  you simply choose not to see it for what it is.  > >  > > And what evidence is that? > > H > > All you've done so far is hold up two very bad examples of corporateJ > > behavior, wave your hands about, toss out a few insults and try to tarH > > all of Corporate America with Tyco/Enron labels, with no evidence or" > > similar wrongdoing whatsoever. > > L > > Make your case, Bill! Cite "all the evidence" that you speak of - if youH > > can. If you can't, then maybe you should just stick to calling other > > people "morons." > H > But you missed the point.  Everyone who does not share his enlightenedH > position is a moron.  He has made this quite clear in the past and the> > fact that you failed to grasp it just proves his point.  :-)  H In that way, Bill is very much like the denizens of the UN*X newsgroups:E no patience for those who refuse to do their own research, and/or who  deny the "merely obvious".   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:24:36 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Kea and VMS* Message-ID: <4336DD54.405BBFC@comcast.net>   contracer11@gmail.com wrote: >  > Jack Peacock wrote: C > > "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message ) > > news:433352D7.9DF9CA99@comcast.net... " > > > contracer11@gmail.com wrote: > > >>K > > >> I'm using Kea for VAX emulator to access our VAX/VMS system. Can you E > > >> tell me how ( in a procedure) can I get default background and L > > >> foreground color ? I need create a procedure to get default FG and BG > > >> KEA's color.  > > > L > > > Not quite sure what you're up to there since screen colors in terminalH > > > programs tend to be a matter of personal preference, due mostly to& > > > biological and ergonomic issues. > > > M > > I assume the original poster is looking for an ESC sequence to return the M > > current color settings.  I just checked the KEA VT420 (v5.10) ESC strings G > > for Terminal Reports, doesn't appear to be one that retrieves color P > > settings.  Since the VT420 didn't support color I wouldn't expect a terminalG > > reports for it.   Was there a VT240/340 terminal reports string for  > > retrieving colors? > >   Jack Peacock > C > Exactly, I need KEA sequence to get current color settings, but I  > didn't > find it in KEA manuals...  > Thanks to all...  D If KEA emulates only ANSI text terminals, but not graphics terminalsH (ReGIS, Tektronix, etc.) it likely won't provide such support for color,G even if it honors incoming commands to set colors for background, text,  etc.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:56:22 +0100 6 From: "Alex Daniels" <AlexNoSpamDaniels@themail.co.uk> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?6 Message-ID: <43366636$0$21931$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>  0 "Doc." <Doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote in message 1 news:Xns96DBEEEC48B84DCovmsrox@212.100.160.126...  <SNIP>K > Installing OpenVMS on an Alpha system is dead easy.  I assume the Itanium K > systems are similarly idiot-proof (for suitable values of idiot).  I plan K > to replace my ancient AlphaServer 2100 sometime in the next year, and I'm > > sure I could do the install, write a single side of paper ofF > instructions, and get my ten year old son to do an install after me. <SNIP>  7 The I64 install is _almost_ identical to the Alpha one.   M There is no need to run SYS$UPDATE:LIBDECOMP after the install, and there is   no question about Galaxy.   K There is an additional section (in V8.2-1 onwards) to set up multiple boot  4 paths, you can also do that from the console or VMS.  K Of course there is also FIS (factory installed software) which you can get  D with new hardware (I've only ever seen it on Alpha, but assume it's L available with I64 as well), that even has the latest patches installed for 6 you on it and is even easier and quicker to get going.  K V8.2-1 also officially supports the very cool software InfoServer that was  M latent in V8.2 (Alpha and I64), with that you can install / upgrade over the   network.  L My perception (not timed any comparisons), having done around 55 AXP E8.2 & M V8.2 upgrades so far with it and at least a couple of installs, is that it's  K quicker that using a CD. Not tried it to upgrade/install any I64 boxes via  E it yet, but I plan to do all (but the first) V8.2-1 upgrades with it.    Alex     ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:12:12 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?+ Message-ID: <4336DA6C.E1CDAAE3@comcast.net>    "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BRADG > > [mailto:bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt@atarelrim03.atl.hp.com] $ > > Sent: September 24, 2005 2:35 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " > > Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha? > > 
 > > [snip]> > > I had similar horrible experiences with COMPAQ during that > > time frame, @ > > and can understand his frustration.  And yes, unfortunately,
 > > this does I > > qualify him (and others) to speak in this manner, because the current @ > > owners of VMS have done _nothing_ to change this perception, > > even though 6 > > they have had years in which to make such changes. > > A > > You _must_ listen to your customers if you wish to serve them 
 > > - rule #1 @ > > in business.  Publically laughing at them does you (and your > > company) a > > great disservice.  > >  > C > Wow - this is really enlightening. After 28 years of working with D > enterprise Customers in the field, this is something I never heard2 > before. Thx for this great advice about rule #1. > 	 > :-) :-)  > G > Lets be real. Yes, there were issues with the merger in terms of Cust < > support. However, do you think this was unique to OpenVMS?  B I've said it before, and I'll say it again(, and again, and again,A and... until SOMEone hears it, LISTENS to it, UNDERSTANDS it, and G RESPONDS to it in a positive way): How many wrongs does it take to make  a right?  A I forget where I heard this, but it did stick in my head for some H reason: "Don't the the fact that they're doing it wrong prevent you from doing it right!"   > [snip]B > Wrt to the competition, I would just love to hear a Dell supportD > resource's response to "Hi, I have a PC386 100Mhz with 32MB memoryG > running Windows NT3.51 and I would like to log a call for support..".   G If the customer has a support contract, why should that pose a problem?   B Do *YOU* pay for services you cannot reasonably expect to receive?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:29:17 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: Semi-OT: eXcursion Server in Startup Group?+ Message-ID: <4336DE6D.B293AF9E@comcast.net>    BRAD wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote: . > > O.k. Here's sort of an off-the-wall query: > > = > > I'm wanting to do some more work on further developing an L > > install-from-CD distro. of Samba V2.8-2. I'd like to be able to run SWATL > > so I can provide a more usable config file template. That means I need X: > > on the PC to run SWAT (the little Alpha is "headless") > G > Question - why do you need X to run SWAT?  Pointing a browser at port I > 901 (<http://rabbit:901/> , for example) is sufficient for me to access I > the SWAT interface on my Alpha from within my home network.  Of course, : > I could be completely misunderstanding your intention... > <snip>  F Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the documentation. I took it to mean thatF SWAT was a DECwindows/MOTIF GUI program. When I get that far, I'll try that and see what happens.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:31:00 -0400 * From: "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com>- Subject: VMS consultants/experts  please read 7 Message-ID: <fnzZe.5280$%H2.709@bignews4.bellsouth.net>   C We are starting to get asked quite often if we provide on-site VMS   consulting.   C We would like to hear from you if you can provide on-site services   throughout the USA and Canada.  ; Please email your resume (in PDF format only) to myself at   dbturner@islandco.com   ? We will keep all information on file until we have requirements   0 Hourly/daily/weekly rates should be fixed rates.I Hotels, transport etc. would of course be on a per case basis and billed  ? directly to the customer at cost (unless you specify otherwise.   J US Citizenship is often required but not manditory for US work. Permenant ( residents are also, of course, eligible.  F We would like to hear from Canadians also to undertake work in CANADA.  % No H1B,Ex Lx Visa holders need apply.   H This is not an offer for employment, it is purely an attempt to collect  information for future use.   K If you are looking for new employment in the VMS arena, then we could also    post your resume on our website.       Thanks   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:54:40 -0400 ' From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn@gmail.com> 0 Subject: Re: VMS consultants/experts please read6 Message-ID: <7dd80f605092508547570e050@mail.gmail.com>  5 On 9/25/05, d b turner <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote: D > We are starting to get asked quite often if we provide on-site VMS
 > consulting.     That's a nice thing to hear. :-)   > D > We would like to hear from you if you can provide on-site services  > throughout the USA and Canada. >   ? If this had come out a few months ago, I would have sent you my E resume, since I have been looking for a new VMS position for the last 	 4 months.   E I'm happy to say my search ended last Friday when I accepted an offer F from eSpeed (part of Cantor Fitzgerald)  in NYC to be a senior OpenVMS' System Manager. I start on Oct 3rd. :-)    Ken Robinson kenrbnsn (at) rbnsn (dot) com  kenrbnsn (at) gmail (dot) com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:31:34 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>0 Subject: Re: VMS consultants/experts please read+ Message-ID: <4336DEF5.778E133E@comcast.net>    Ken Robinson wrote:  > 7 > On 9/25/05, d b turner <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote: F > > We are starting to get asked quite often if we provide on-site VMS > > consulting.  > " > That's a nice thing to hear. :-) >  > > F > > We would like to hear from you if you can provide on-site services" > > throughout the USA and Canada. > >  > A > If this had come out a few months ago, I would have sent you my G > resume, since I have been looking for a new VMS position for the last  > 4 months.  > G > I'm happy to say my search ended last Friday when I accepted an offer H > from eSpeed (part of Cantor Fitzgerald)  in NYC to be a senior OpenVMS) > System Manager. I start on Oct 3rd. :-)   ! Congrats to you, Ken! Great news!   C Hope we can continue to be of help (when aren't squabbling over any # number of topics other than VMS)...    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.536 ************************