1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 26 Sep 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 537       Contents:5 Re: 553  %TCPIP-E-SMTP_COMMANDERR, SMTP command error 4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobsH Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.H Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs.( Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling), Re: Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling), Re: Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling) RE: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha?  Re: Revival of Alpha? / VAX8350 Power Supply (H7251/H7253) problems.... ( Re: VMS consultants/experts  please read' Re: VMS consultants/experts please read ' Re: VMS consultants/experts please read   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 19:39:19 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> > Subject: Re: 553  %TCPIP-E-SMTP_COMMANDERR, SMTP command error, Message-ID: <43373510.7F4E36A4@teksavvy.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:  > 9 > Recently, I've been getting several messages like this:  > A > 553  %TCPIP-E-SMTP_COMMANDERR, SMTP command error <domain-name>    Where do you see this message ?   ; The only true debugging tool available is a symbiont trace:   & $DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$SMTP_SYMB_TRACE 1% $DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$SMTP_LOG_LEVEL 2  $TCPIP STOP MAIL $WAIT 00:00:30 $TCPIP START MAIL   ; The tracing goes to $sys$disk:[sys0.tcpip$smtp]*logfile.log   G It is the only way to see the real error message. The messages reported E by TCPIP Services cannot be trusted. The stuff was written during the - Curly era and is made to lie to customers :-)    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:40:54 GMT 5 From: "Dennis D. Carter" <dennis.carter1@verizon.net> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs * Message-ID: <GiBZe.2949$211.1518@trnddc08>  L The only pollution we need to do something about is the garbage oozing from ! between your ears to the key pad.  Dennis D. Carter  1 "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> wrote in message  5 news:4sAZe.4980$Am6.1530@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...  > ( > <mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message ? > news:1127572673.032008.162350@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...  >> >> We Are All French  :  >>j >> http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2005/commentary05092309.htm?logvisit=y&source=estmarhln001999&npu=y > J > I quite agree with the american policy on oil being wrong.  If they put K > the tax on fuel that they do on europe and use it wisely such as schools  J > and hospitals they would have a surplus overnight.  Instead of medicare M > subscriptions you pay for these things at the gas pump.  Same with college  G > fees.    However no government that implimented this tax would last.  G > Hybrid cars and alternative fuel sources such as lpg conversions and  J > vegetable oil in diesel cars has been driven by the high cost of petrol I > and diesel.  For the single worst polluter of the world to cut back on  D > consumption due to economic pressure would extend the life of oil  > reserves.  > L > During the evacuation from 'Rita' foreign journalists noted the number of  > SUVs in the traffic queue. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:48:21 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <4336E2E5.D57A0CAE@comcast.net>    "Michael Johnson, PE" wrote: >  > ian lincoln wrote:4 > > "Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> wrote in message/ > > news:tqidnSOYT686E6neRVn-oA@giganews.com...  > >> d b turner wrote:K > >>> Hell, after 1945 when AMERICA and the UK, Canada, etc.  bailed France K > >>> out of occupation you would think it would be gracious to an American  > >>> corporation such as HP.  > > L > > France gave HP lots of money in return for creating jobs.  Now they haveM > > axed the jobs and intend to keep the money.  I would be pissed off at any G > > foreign company doing that with british money ESPECIALLY the bloody N > > americans.Some utter wanker in a suit and a shed load of lawyers would getL > > huge bonuses for coming for a scheme like that and getting away with it.O > > You are hereby notified that any attempt to claim usa bailed out britain or L > > that you won the war on your own will grant all offenders a month in theK > > honourable killfile.  Next to measekite the only other person from this  > > group in the file. > H > The whole idea of governments "buying" jobs through tax breaks etc. is/ > flawed, IMO.  It just masks the real problems   > The "real problems" tend to be characteristics of the economic environment.   > and does nothing to solve  > them for the long term.   G I would be hard-pressed to suggest anything a local government could do 3 that would improve the global economic environment.   ' > France should be restructuring itself E > economically to attract business by providing a strong, more market I > based economy.  The trouble is there are too many French workers out to  > protect their perks    Read: "livelihood"  2 > so nothing ever changes for the better.  I guess! > once they all loose their perks    Read: "livelihood"  ) > as a result of a very poor economy they  > will be willing to change.  0 And what changes should they be willing to make?  E Give up their homes, however modest, and move into a cardboard carton  under an overpass?  F Go "shopping" at the trash bins on garbage day rather than the grocery store on payday?  H I'm seeing in these threads a perpetuation of the flawed perception thatH workers everywhere are overpaid, lazy fat-cats, unlike the executives ofF their employers who live modestly and well within their means, are notE paid 30 to 3000 times the salary of their lowest paid hourly workers, E and who strive to re-invest profits back into the business and/or pay A dividends to their investors rather than indulge in luxurious and  extravagant lifestyles.    As always, prove me wrong.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:28:46 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <4336EC5D.F425F779@comcast.net>    "Michael Johnson, PE" wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote: 
 > > [snip]L > > I'm seeing in these threads a perpetuation of the flawed perception thatL > > workers everywhere are overpaid, lazy fat-cats, unlike the executives ofJ > > their employers who live modestly and well within their means, are notI > > paid 30 to 3000 times the salary of their lowest paid hourly workers, I > > and who strive to re-invest profits back into the business and/or pay E > > dividends to their investors rather than indulge in luxurious and  > > extravagant lifestyles.  > >  > > As always, prove me wrong. > D > I don't have to prove anything.  Just look at the current state ofB > France's economy.  The proof is already staring you in the face.  G Only proves that the model doesn't work. Doesn't identify the cause(s).   F ...unless, of course, you're suggesting that the only model that does C work is the one where the rich are obsecenely rich and the poor are G abjectly so, with little or nothing in the middle (i.e., feudal times), 6 in which case I must continue to take great exception.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:46:30 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 0 Message-ID: <11jdrq0ff2bk380@corp.supernews.com>   ian lincoln wrote:3 > "Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> wrote in message  - > news:tqidnSOYT686E6neRVn-oA@giganews.com...  >  >>d b turner wrote:  >>H >>>Hell, after 1945 when AMERICA and the UK, Canada, etc.  bailed FranceH >>>out of occupation you would think it would be gracious to an American >>>corporation such as HP. >  > K > France gave HP lots of money in return for creating jobs.  Now they have  - > axed the jobs and intend to keep the money.   C If you make a deal, you should keep your side of the bargain.  Not  E coming down on either side of the issue, just the concept of keeping  1 your word.  Anyone/anything else is just a thief.     >  I would be pissed off at any F > foreign company doing that with british money ESPECIALLY the bloody M > americans.Some utter wanker in a suit and a shed load of lawyers would get  K > huge bonuses for coming for a scheme like that and getting away with it.    H 3-day open season on lawyers and CEOs and such.  Could really take days , 2 and 3 off if a good job was done on day 1.  N > You are hereby notified that any attempt to claim usa bailed out britain or K > that you won the war on your own will grant all offenders a month in the  J > honourable killfile.  Next to measekite the only other person from this  > group in the file.    - Well, then, killfile me for facing the truth.   F LendLease for both Britain and Russia.  In the USA's best interest of  course.   H Some number of pilots who came to the RAF before the US was in the war, * and participated in the Battle of Britain.  F Convoys bringing much needed supplies through U-boat infested waters. " Both British and American sailors.  D 8th Air Force flying daylight bombing raids, with horrendous losses.   See you in a month.   A Note, I'm aware that the effort was a composite of many parties,  G including the French Underground, who were in 24 hour danger the whole  I time.  Definitely not a 100% USA effort, but probably doomed without the   USA.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:06:52 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 0 Message-ID: <11jdt05jiu7r6a8@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:   I > Consider how forcefully your country reacted to 3000 folks losing their  > life on 9-11.   G No where nearly as forcefully as the reaction to losing less people on  E December 7, 1941.  Hell JF, no one has been nuked yet.  Where's your  < sense of proportion?  Gone along with your sense of reality?  5 > Now, your presidnet has killed over 2000 americans.   B Actually, most have been killed by terrorists intent on resisting A democracy, and who were much happier when the Sunni minority was  = persucuting the Shiites and Kurds, gassing villages and such.    > WhenF > the count exceeds 3000, will he finally be considered more dangerous > than Bin-Laden ?  ! No.  Bin-Laden targets civilians.   8 > (I realise americans don't consider loss of iraqi life > to be worth anything,   G I thought it was Iraqis who didn't consider loss of Iraqi lives of any  E consequence.  What's the latest from the terrorists?  All-out war on  . Shiite civilians?  Targetting Shiite children?  0 > but in the rest of the world, they have value,  D Where?  Answer that.  Who stepped in to stop the gassing of Kurdish E villagers?  Come on, you have all the answers, just who did anything  D more than run at the mouth.  A market you have pretty well cornered.     and I > Bush has ordered the killing of over 15,000 iraqis in his jihad against  > terrorism.   Want to quote such orders?  7 > That is 5 times the number of people killed on 9-11.)    How many did Saddam kill?   E Frankly, I'm appalled at how things have turned out.  The USA is the  E major victim.  Our whole way of life has changed.  I cannot condemn,  B because I favored removing Saddam.  I really didn't see the Sunni I harboring the foreign elements that are indiscriminately killing any and  G all, including children.  It's hard for me to blame anyone else, but I  4 realize that the USA is a big loser in these events.  H And for what?  Sunnis who will kill indiscriminately?  Shiites who have F no sense of being thankful to their rescuers, but who will respond to E Iran, who will take any chance to hurt the USA?  Maybe the Kurds, in  ; spite of out 'ally' Turkey wanting to oppress these people.   H Maybe those who advocate leaving them alone, to hurt each other without , putting American lives at risk, are correct.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:10:25 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <4336F620.2B28F4F1@teksavvy.com>   ian lincoln wrote:L > That means there have been huge numbers of employees paying into a pensionG > fund.  In order to be eligible you have to pay in for one the company I > doesn't hand them out for free.  That money isn't to be invested in the J > company itself the money is merely managed by the company it isn't to be" > used as a reserve bank account.      In principle, correct.  G But in reality, there are many funds where retirees are getting part of G their revenus from contributions of current workers. When companies are F downsizing and offering early retirement, not only are there now fewerG people contributing to the fund, but also an unplanned for sudden surge " in people gettin early retirement.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:08:13 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 0 Message-ID: <11jdt2i8s6tb2d0@corp.supernews.com>  
 Lurker wrote: < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message( > news:4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com... >  > = >>Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals.  >  > = > 1: To declare someone a criminal (let alone a war criminal) . > requires a court and jury - you are neither. > 8 > 2: In fact, the claim you've made is likely to qualify> > as an offence itself - libel at least. It's up to the courts > to decide. > 1 > 3: Don't you think that when millions of people 3 > vote one way and you don't agree with the outcome 4 > there is just a slim chance that you may be wrong? >  >   
 JF wrong? !!!   	 ROTFLMAO!    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 19:17:12 GMT - From: Don S <suterdfNoSpam@NoSpamverizon.net> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ) Message-ID: <YICZe.1008$il4.651@trnddc04>   
 Aka wrote:  G > In Saint Louis we have seen the great results of the American way of   > life. I > No forward planning (water protection, ghetto forming, elderly care) -  E > just look at those silly levees to know what America stands for: a  G > fast buck and lots of vapid sanctimonious praying to a Coca Cola god.  >  > Aka   A You have it backwards, it is the perfect example of the "French"  F influence on the American way,.  If it weren't for the corrupt French > influence the levies would have been much bigger and stronger.              Don S   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:29:37 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <4336FA9F.7D929D69@teksavvy.com>   "Michael Johnson, PE" wrote:I > based economy.  The trouble is there are too many French workers out to F > protect their perks so nothing ever changes for the better.  I guessI > once they all loose their perks as a result of a very poor economy they  > will be willing to change.  F Are American consultants willing to take 50% pay cuts to prevent their job from moving to India ?  E Take this to a much longer term and increases in efficiency will mean F that only a small percentage of humans will need to work to supply allC of humanity with the goods and services.  And because there will be E competition to get those jobs, wages will be low and tax breaks high.     B Consider Boeing's selection of its head office a few years ago. ItG basically went on an RFP asking which state was willing to grant Boeing G the highest tax breaks. It chose Illinois. And everytime it has a large D project, it goes on an RFP to see which state is willing to give the. biggest tax breaks to locate the plant there.   B If Boeing, the epitome of private capitalist enterprise in the USAF depends on tax breaks, then you have to expect tax breaks to be a tool5 used by governmnets at all levels all over the world.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:34:02 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs * Message-ID: <HYCZe.15589$X6.2381@fe05.lga>   David J Dachtera wrote: D >>I don't have to prove anything.  Just look at the current state ofB >>France's economy.  The proof is already staring you in the face.  I > Only proves that the model doesn't work. Doesn't identify the cause(s).   > Color me surprised; you realize the French model doesn't work.  F But now, this makes me wonder - why do you think something similar to ' the French model would work in the USA?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:50:56 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <4336FF99.1C647BFD@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: I > I would be hard-pressed to suggest anything a local government could do 5 > that would improve the global economic environment.   H If the USA were to accept Kyoto and set targets to lower its reliance onD oil, it could then get India and China to also implement Kyoto. As aE resyult fo this, oil prices would stop having constant pressure to go 7 up. And that would gretaly benefit the world's economy.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:10:46 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ; Message-ID: <avDZe.5299$Am6.4964@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   @ "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message % news:4336EC5D.F425F779@comcast.net...  > "Michael Johnson, PE" wrote: >> >> David J Dachtera wrote: >> > [snip] I >> > I'm seeing in these threads a perpetuation of the flawed perception  	 >> > that K >> > workers everywhere are overpaid, lazy fat-cats, unlike the executives   >> > of K >> > their employers who live modestly and well within their means, are not J >> > paid 30 to 3000 times the salary of their lowest paid hourly workers,J >> > and who strive to re-invest profits back into the business and/or payF >> > dividends to their investors rather than indulge in luxurious and >> > extravagant lifestyles. >> > >> > As always, prove me wrong.  >>E >> I don't have to prove anything.  Just look at the current state of C >> France's economy.  The proof is already staring you in the face.  > I > Only proves that the model doesn't work. Doesn't identify the cause(s).  > G > ...unless, of course, you're suggesting that the only model that does E > work is the one where the rich are obsecenely rich and the poor are I > abjectly so, with little or nothing in the middle (i.e., feudal times), 8 > in which case I must continue to take great exception.  J NHS nurses and Doctors, highly educated underpaid.  NHS know sweet fa and  are paid higher.  L Police, hard tough job, up until recently admin workers were same or better  pay.  G Railways - union.  Hardly any work ever diminishing responsibility and  M skyrocketing salary.  Only job in britain where a complete Knob end can earn   30K.   D I worked for a year at jessops.  Worked in inner london.  No london L weighting allowance.  Originally told not enough experience for real money. K Then get a pay raise after a year of hitting targets and a floatation that  K raised 150million.  Chief exec gets 1 million.  I get 12pence pay raise.  I Checkout workers at WHSmiths that serve me my paper and drink on the way  J home are taking home more than me.  Ask about money company cries poverty.  L Someone else mentioned that it doesn't take a financial genius to decide to  axe jobs to save money.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:19:48 -0400 4 From: "Peter A. Stavrakoglou" <ntotrr@optonline.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <ADDZe.15446$i%2.9609@fe10.lga>   0 "Peter" <nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message ; news:InuZe.3367$oc.1322@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... 2 > "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com> wrote in message 1 > news:f2uZe.14238$iM2.1177692@news.xtra.co.nz... = >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ) >> news:4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com...  >>@ >> > Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals. >>> >> 1: To declare someone a criminal (let alone a war criminal)/ >> requires a court and jury - you are neither.  >>9 >> 2: In fact, the claim you've made is likely to qualify ? >> as an offence itself - libel at least. It's up to the courts 
 >> to decide.  >>2 >> 3: Don't you think that when millions of people4 >> vote one way and you don't agree with the outcome5 >> there is just a slim chance that you may be wrong?  > ? > Pope John Paul II repeatedly said Bush's invasion of Iraq was C > "neither legally nor morally justifiable".  He therefore declared  > Bush to be a war criminal. > 1 > If he was ok with this pronouncement, I am too.   M Are you "OK" with all of the Pope's pronouncements or only the ones that you   agree with?    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:20:28 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 9 Message-ID: <gEDZe.5340$Am6.66@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   A "Dennis D. Carter" <dennis.carter1@verizon.net> wrote in message  $ news:GiBZe.2949$211.1518@trnddc08...I > The only pollution we need to do something about is the garbage oozing  ( > from between your ears to the key pad. > Dennis D. Carter  G I suggest you leave this discussion to those with brains larger than a   grape.     ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:26:45 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs : Message-ID: <9KDZe.5362$Am6.813@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>  D "Adam Russell" <adamrussell@sbcglobal.net.invalid> wrote in message % news:3po11bFbbkqpU1@individual.net...  > 2 > "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com> wrote in message 1 > news:f2uZe.14238$iM2.1177692@news.xtra.co.nz... = >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ) >> news:4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com...  >>? >>> Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals.  >>> >> 1: To declare someone a criminal (let alone a war criminal)/ >> requires a court and jury - you are neither.  >>9 >> 2: In fact, the claim you've made is likely to qualify ? >> as an offence itself - libel at least. It's up to the courts 
 >> to decide.  > I > If Bush feels that it is libel then he has the right to sue for libel.  C > You have *no* standing to make legal complaint on Bush's behalf.  I > Regardless of whether Bush has or hasnt followed international law, or  $ > whether he needs to at this point.  I There are several regimes around the world who are committing atrocities  G everyday.  The difference with iraq is that is has a huge oil reserve.     ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:33:31 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <43370991.2A7A6433@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:C > Actually, most have been killed by terrorists intent on resisting  > democracy,  E They are resisting an invasion by a foreign power who refuses to hand G over power back to Iraqis. (contrary to what your politicians/media are G saying the USA not handed power back to Iraqis, especially not military E power and has refused requests by the semi-government to move Kurdish F troups to protect Bagdhad, allowing americans to move out of Bagdhad).  # > No.  Bin-Laden targets civilians.   H Bush targetted over 15,000 Iraqi civilians, targetted civilian telephoneC exchanges, targeted the govermment facilities, destroyed parliament C buildings (ironic move if you pretend to want to build democracy).    C Iraq was technically a democratic nation. Its constitution had full E election procedures. The only problem that needed to be fixed was the F removal of the need to approve every candidate. But the USA zapped theH whole constitution instead of using the existing constitution as a basis to rebuild.   F Note that in Afghanistan, where the USA operated under UN mandate, theE UN used a previous constitution of Afghanistan as a basis to form the G interim government and this was done very quickly. Years later, Iraq is % still without functioning government.   H > I thought it was Iraqis who didn't consider loss of Iraqi lives of anyF > consequence.  What's the latest from the terrorists?  All-out war on0 > Shiite civilians?  Targetting Shiite children?  F Guess who is interfering with all decisions in Iraq and preventing theE interim govermnent from appearing to be defending all iraqis and thus # making that government irrelevant ?   E > Where?  Answer that.  Who stepped in to stop the gassing of Kurdish  > villagers?    A More importantly, who stepped into give the gases ? It was Donald D Rumsfeld.  And the first gulf war was done under UN sanction becauseG Iraq had illegally invaded another nation. The USA invaded Iraq with as + much legitimacy as Iraq had invaded Kuwait.   F You should note that once the UN started to work in Iraq after the 1stG gulf war, the serious war crimes , using of gases etc stopped. He still I used capital punishement to control criminals, but then so does the USA.    F Hussein belonged in a war crimes tribunal. No question about that. ButF the USA invading another country illegally also deserves a trip to war crimes tribunal.  K > > Bush has ordered the killing of over 15,000 iraqis in his jihad against  > > terrorism. >  > Want to quote such orders?  B Remember the sentence "Shock and Awe" ?  Used WMDs to show massive: destruction to cripple the country as quickly as possible.    9 > > That is 5 times the number of people killed on 9-11.)  >  > How many did Saddam kill?   G If the USA is willing to compare itself against Hussein, then so be it,  You are both war criminals.   G The UN expects its members to uphold much higher standards. But I guess D americans are just happy if they are just a tad better than Hussein.C Your permanent seat at security council should be revoked. You have E abused your power and because of your veto, you cannot be punished. A  verty dangerous precedent.      4 > major victim.  Our whole way of life has changed.   H You cannot blame Saddam for this. Blame all those who did not react whenH your regime passed the Patriot act. Blame all those who laughed at thoseG few who did criticise Patriot Act.  Your way of life changed because of F your government over-reacting and blowing the dangers of terrorism outH of proportions on a permanent basis. Why ? because that was the only wayF they could get re-elected since they are so inept at all other aspects of government.    I > And for what?  Sunnis who will kill indiscriminately?  Shiites who have G > no sense of being thankful to their rescuers, but who will respond to 3 > Iran, who will take any chance to hurt the USA?     1 You are not rescuers, You are invadors. Period.     E Removing Saddam may have been a "rescue", Invading and destroying the E ocuntry, its constitution and currency is not welcome. Heck, you even > tried to change its flag and impose a US design very early on.  G Removing Saddam should have been either a very diplomatic mission, or a G tactical murder of one person (and his sons who were the real criminals K in the later years and they are the ones who continued to kill dissenters).   F And note that the rest of the world had warned on manty occasions that@ any invasion would result in major instability, civil unrest andD possibly civil war, and that the Shiites would then align themselvesG with Iran and bring islamic revolutiosn much closer to the middle east. E This is why all neighbours of IOraq were opposed to the USA invasion.   ' WE TOLD YOU SO. YOU REFUSED TO LISTEN.    F And the USA is obviously inept at fixing the problems that it caused. G You are to be held responsible for the problems you caused. And even if G you widthdraw your troups, you still need to pay to rebuild the country E (instead of sending all the money to Haliburton to hire americans are B exagerated salaries instead of hiring Iraqis who are out of work).  ? Remember that this whole invasion was just a pet project by the F Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Cheney axis of evil who found any excuse they couldF to do what they had wanted to do for a long time. (just like they toreG up the agreement clinton made with north korea as soon as they got into < power after 9-11 - they had promised to do so back in 1998).  I > Maybe those who advocate leaving them alone, to hurt each other without . > putting American lives at risk, are correct.  G The UN had succeeded in stopping  the war crimes/genocides that Hussein E had done on Kurds and Shiites. Kurds had in fact obtained significant D independance, they had their own army and local government. However,H Turkey is very concerned because it fears losing some reagions who mightE wish to separate from Turkey and join a separate Kurdistan shoudl the $ Kurds ever gain total independance.   A In the end, to keep disparate people together, you need a stronmg A government. Look at what happened after Tito died in Yougoslavia.   G Democracy is not something you can instantly impose on a country. It is G something which must evolve, especially in areas with disparate people. G But Rumsfeld didn't care, he just wanted to show that the USa was still F a huge military power and scare the rest of the world into submission.Q (again, look at his agendas that were fully documented in newamericancentury.org.   = In 2000, americans may not have known that they were electing H Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Cheney as presidents. But in 2004 they knew and still> voted for them to continue their world destabilising policies.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:43:21 GMT $ From: "Peter" <nospam@earthlink.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs A Message-ID: <JZDZe.3823$0m6.527@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>   e "Peter A. Stavrakoglou" <ntotrr@optonline.net> wrote in message news:ADDZe.15446$i%2.9609@fe10.lga... 1 > "Peter" <nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in message = > news:InuZe.3367$oc.1322@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... 3 > > "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com> wrote in message 3 > > news:f2uZe.14238$iM2.1177692@news.xtra.co.nz... ? > >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message + > >> news:4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com...  > >>B > >> > Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals. > >>@ > >> 1: To declare someone a criminal (let alone a war criminal)1 > >> requires a court and jury - you are neither.  > >>; > >> 2: In fact, the claim you've made is likely to qualify A > >> as an offence itself - libel at least. It's up to the courts  > >> to decide.  > >>4 > >> 3: Don't you think that when millions of people6 > >> vote one way and you don't agree with the outcome7 > >> there is just a slim chance that you may be wrong?  > > A > > Pope John Paul II repeatedly said Bush's invasion of Iraq was E > > "neither legally nor morally justifiable".  He therefore declared  > > Bush to be a war criminal. > > 3 > > If he was ok with this pronouncement, I am too.  > N > Are you "OK" with all of the Pope's pronouncements or only the ones that you
 > agree with?   = Not all, just most.  Especially from that particular ex-Pope.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:47:58 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <hq2ej1hf1f4ikrc81gmbl0kk4vmf8dejpk@4ax.com>  A On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:42:40 GMT, "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com>  wrote:   > ' ><mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message  > >news:1127572673.032008.162350@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... >> >> We Are All French  :  >>j >> http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2005/commentary05092309.htm?logvisit=y&source=estmarhln001999&npu=y > M >I quite agree with the american policy on oil being wrong.  If they put the  J >tax on fuel that they do on europe and use it wisely such as schools and / >hospitals they would have a surplus overnight.   ; 	Like hell we would. Bush would piss it all away on another E off-budget, unjustified war or on making his cronieseven wealthier by / handing it over to them in the frm of tax cuts.    >  Instead of medicare  L >subscriptions you pay for these things at the gas pump.  Same with college  >fees.  : 	Somehow California managed for years to have an excellentE university system at very low cost. What do you think happened in the 	 meantime?   ? 	The US used to have an excellent low-cost national park system 5 until much of it was sacrificed on the altar of being  "self-supporting".  ? 	Again, what happened? If you think jacking up fuel taxes would D have been applied to these problems, you know precious little of how things work.  I >    However no government that implimented this tax would last.  Hybrid  M >cars and alternative fuel sources such as lpg conversions and vegetable oil  L >in diesel cars has been driven by the high cost of petrol and diesel.  For  >the single worst polluter  : 	Give it a few years and we'll lose the title to China and India.  1 > of the world to cut back on consumption due to  9 >economic pressure would extend the life of oil reserves.  > K >During the evacuation from 'Rita' foreign journalists noted the number of   >SUVs in the traffic queue.  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:51:33 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <o93ej1tfsa8u17e2r68va1gug60m4aheum@4ax.com>  A On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:46:40 GMT, "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com>  wrote:   > 6 >"Ron Hunter" <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in message ' >news:r4eZe.13058$L45.10075@fe07.lga...  >> mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote: >>> d b turner wrote: M >>>> I was in France about 4 weeks ago - beautiful along the midi-pyrenees -   >>>> butM >>>> the people were the rudest, most unfriendly people - and I speak French   >>>> so 	 >>>> they  >>>> hasve no excuse.  >>>>= >>>> (I am a Brit -mum is French Dad Brit - I live in GA USA.  >>>> >>>>; >>>> Even the food has gotten lame since my last trip in 98 M >>>> And for those that are blinkered about the Frenchman's animosity towards * >>>> their saviours - it's all bloody true7 >>>> Theyt hate the British and theyt detest Americans.  >>>  >>>  >>> F >>> This thread has nothing to do with your racism against the French. >>> B >>> The truth is that HP is showing the same lack of real strategy >>> in the US. >>> > >>> Our US HP friends are also laid off because of the current8 >>> trends of brilliant strategists backed up by no less4 >>> brilliant stock analysts who have no other ideas# >>> to try to help the stock price.  >>> + >>> No doing a substraction is not a vision  >>> nor a strategy.  >>>  >>> . >>> One difference though : French laws permit, >>> a strike whereas it is almost impossible >>> within HP in the US. >>> + >>> When a company claims all the time that 3 >>> Ethic is important to it and that its employees 3 >>> are its best asset, it should not be authorized 0 >>> to lay off while increasing at the same time  >>> its profits and distributing& >>> millions of $ to its top managers. >>> M >> The wisdom of laying off employees to improve the bottom line, aside, the  K >> thing that amazes me is that people somehow think a company OWES them a  ' >> job.  WHERE did this idea come from?  > I >There are all kinds of subsidies and tax breaks given by governments to  M >create factories and thus jobs.  If you then take the money and run what do  M >you expect a government to do.  In france the past is forgotten, you can be  N >an ex nazi industrialist who made munitions for the nazi war machine but you I >are welcome here.  In france the past is forgotten, fought in two world  N >wars, want a asylum, well you can sod off.  If you want to come to france to 5 >live and work you have to bring a factory with you.   >   = 	Bullshit -- I have a friend who's lived in Paris for fifteen F years who arrived with little but the ability to think and write. He's> anmazed at what we USians putting up with from the government.  = 	His daughers also got an excellent education for very little  money.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:53:18 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <af3ej1hoq9drq5jm57gifonc1bhl7f4n75@4ax.com>  A On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:53:40 GMT, "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com>  wrote:   > < >"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ' >news:433624FB.8342C683@teksavvy.com...  >  >>A >> Consider HP vs Dell. HP is an old company with lots of retired H >> employees. Dell is a young company with very few retired company. HowJ >> can HP compete with Dell if it is saddled with pension obligations that >> are huge when Dell isn't ?  > L >That means there have been huge numbers of employees paying into a pension G >fund.  In order to be eligible you have to pay in for one the company  I >doesn't hand them out for free.  That money isn't to be invested in the  J >company itself the money is merely managed by the company it isn't to be N >used as a reserve bank account.  Look at the trouble robert maxwell got into  >for doing just that.  >   ? 	But it doesn't work that way in the real world. The corps view C the money socked away in pension funds as "wasted capital" and find E ways to plunder it before bailing out with their platinum parachutes.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:28:22 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <o45ej19ub18ul22tolkqdok5fvhqfdm6tg@4ax.com>  A On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:24:58 GMT, "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com>  wrote:   > < >"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ' >news:4336F620.2B28F4F1@teksavvy.com...  >> ian lincoln wrote: G >>> That means there have been huge numbers of employees paying into a   >>> pension I >>> fund.  In order to be eligible you have to pay in for one the company K >>> doesn't hand them out for free.  That money isn't to be invested in the L >>> company itself the money is merely managed by the company it isn't to be# >>> used as a reserve bank account.  >> >> >> In principle, correct.  >>J >> But in reality, there are many funds where retirees are getting part ofJ >> their revenus from contributions of current workers. When companies areI >> downsizing and offering early retirement, not only are there now fewer J >> people contributing to the fund, but also an unplanned for sudden surge% >> in people gettin early retirement.  > N >I've never understood how they can claim to save money.  At least in Britain N >you can only make someone redundant or early retire when their job no longer N >exists.  Not cos you want to get rid of them.  To do otherwise means 'buying L >them off' which can be expensive.  A more than usually generous redundancy N >settlement equal to a year or more wages or a higher than typical retirement M >settlement.  This means for that year of layoffs you haven't actually saved  L >on your wage bill.  So how at the end of a year you can claim savings when K >you have paid out just as much wages but not even got a years work out of  L >everyone how do you claim a saving?  You do the following year but not the 9 >first. Some creative accounting going on if you ask me.   >   6 	In the US, a week's pay per year of employment is notC uncommon, as in the last place I worked. Prior to that, I worked 28 C years for a railroad, which outsourced IT to IBM. When the railroad D was sold two years later, we were let go. IBM based severance on twoA years employment -- two weeks per year. But they had a minimum of  eight weeks, so we got that.  ? 	Some years prior, a different railroad also outsourced many of D its empliyees to an outfit which fired tham all siix months later. A@ judge finally made that railroad disgorge its standard severanceD package for all those (many 30-year) employees on the basis that theB outsourcing was merely a cover to allow the company to evade their) normal responsibility to their employees.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:35:47 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 6 Message-ID: <00A4A566.E1B6C96E@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  h In article <InuZe.3367$oc.1322@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Peter" <nospam@earthlink.net> writes:` >"Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com> wrote in message news:f2uZe.14238$iM2.1177692@news.xtra.co.nz...= >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ) >> news:4335EA9C.8CE7BF4E@teksavvy.com...  >>@ >> > Live with it. Your population re-elected the war criminals. >>> >> 1: To declare someone a criminal (let alone a war criminal)/ >> requires a court and jury - you are neither.  >>9 >> 2: In fact, the claim you've made is likely to qualify ? >> as an offence itself - libel at least. It's up to the courts 
 >> to decide.   8 I don't think you can libel a public figure in this way.   >>2 >> 3: Don't you think that when millions of people4 >> vote one way and you don't agree with the outcome5 >> there is just a slim chance that you may be wrong?   I It's extremely stupid of me to participate in this off-topic thread, but, H y'know, c'mon!  In the 2004 election, millions of people voted for Bush,K not many fewer millions voted for Kerry.  In the 2000 election, millions of N people voted for Bush; _more_ millions of people voted for Gore.  The arrow ofK your argument points both ways in this particular case, so it would have no L force even if the actual point - which seems to be "the majority is probablyM right" had any force.  (Common counter-example in the US; in the early 1800s, O abolitionists were in a distinct minority.  Should they have said "the majority K have no problem with slaverly; maybe we're wrong and should stop arguing?")      -- Alan    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:59:53 GMT 5 From: "Dennis D. Carter" <dennis.carter1@verizon.net> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <t5FZe.12469$SG3.11791@trnddc07>  L I don't give serious consideration to suggestions from a kook.  You and the L rest of the spoiled brats from the sixties are as useless and detached from * reality as the ideology you rant on about.  J I suggest you take your "larger than a grape" intellect and direct you're K failed ideological babble to a more appropriate site, like alt.politics or   alt.usenet.kooks.    Dennis D. Carter  1 "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> wrote in message  3 news:gEDZe.5340$Am6.66@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...  > C > "Dennis D. Carter" <dennis.carter1@verizon.net> wrote in message  & > news:GiBZe.2949$211.1518@trnddc08...J >> The only pollution we need to do something about is the garbage oozing ) >> from between your ears to the key pad.  >> Dennis D. Carter  > I > I suggest you leave this discussion to those with brains larger than a   > grape. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:31:25 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs * Message-ID: <4337253D.E6E0846@comcast.net>   Z wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote: F > >>I don't have to prove anything.  Just look at the current state ofD > >>France's economy.  The proof is already staring you in the face. > K > > Only proves that the model doesn't work. Doesn't identify the cause(s).  > @ > Color me surprised; you realize the French model doesn't work. > G > But now, this makes me wonder - why do you think something similar to ) > the French model would work in the USA?   ; I don't recall making any such statement. Can you quote me?    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:40:54 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <43372776.F0AAEA95@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote: K > > I would be hard-pressed to suggest anything a local government could do 7 > > that would improve the global economic environment.  > J > If the USA were to accept Kyoto and set targets to lower its reliance onF > oil, it could then get India and China to also implement Kyoto. As aG > resyult fo this, oil prices would stop having constant pressure to go 9 > up. And that would gretaly benefit the world's economy.   B I've never considered "the USA" to be a "local government", rather something much larger.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:39:12 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <43372710.CFF1D5D3@comcast.net>    ian lincoln wrote: > A > "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message ' > news:4336EC5D.F425F779@comcast.net...   > > "Michael Johnson, PE" wrote: > >> > >> David J Dachtera wrote:
 > >> > [snip] J > >> > I'm seeing in these threads a perpetuation of the flawed perception > >> > that L > >> > workers everywhere are overpaid, lazy fat-cats, unlike the executives	 > >> > of M > >> > their employers who live modestly and well within their means, are not L > >> > paid 30 to 3000 times the salary of their lowest paid hourly workers,L > >> > and who strive to re-invest profits back into the business and/or payH > >> > dividends to their investors rather than indulge in luxurious and > >> > extravagant lifestyles. > >> >! > >> > As always, prove me wrong.  > >>G > >> I don't have to prove anything.  Just look at the current state of E > >> France's economy.  The proof is already staring you in the face.  > > K > > Only proves that the model doesn't work. Doesn't identify the cause(s).  > > I > > ...unless, of course, you're suggesting that the only model that does G > > work is the one where the rich are obsecenely rich and the poor are K > > abjectly so, with little or nothing in the middle (i.e., feudal times), : > > in which case I must continue to take great exception. > K > NHS nurses and Doctors, highly educated underpaid.  NHS know sweet fa and  > are paid higher. > M > Police, hard tough job, up until recently admin workers were same or better  > pay. > H > Railways - union.  Hardly any work ever diminishing responsibility andN > skyrocketing salary.  Only job in britain where a complete Knob end can earn > 30K.  > E > I worked for a year at jessops.  Worked in inner london.  No london M > weighting allowance.  Originally told not enough experience for real money. L > Then get a pay raise after a year of hitting targets and a floatation thatL > raised 150million.  Chief exec gets 1 million.  I get 12pence pay raise.J > Checkout workers at WHSmiths that serve me my paper and drink on the wayL > home are taking home more than me.  Ask about money company cries poverty. > M > Someone else mentioned that it doesn't take a financial genius to decide to  > axe jobs to save money.   B ...but it DOES take a financial genius to understand that reducingE production capability RARELY does *ANY*thing to promote productivity.   G People are what they are. My brother-in-law is on disability after nine G years with the railroad. He still gets a railroad pension. Between that F and the money his wife earns as a benefits administrator for a locallyF prominent drug store chain keeps them afloat. They are neither wealthyC nor likely to be. His son also works for the railroad. He can't get * enough work until he gains more seniority.  E People are what they are. "Z" keeps looking for his "perfect world" - G this ain't it. Some folks will work hard and earn an honest day's wage. H Others won't but still demand their pay (not limited to hourly types, byD the way: exec.'s fall under that heading as well!). Such is the real world.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:47:38 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <4337290A.65A6D5C5@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > "Michael Johnson, PE" wrote:K > > based economy.  The trouble is there are too many French workers out to H > > protect their perks so nothing ever changes for the better.  I guessK > > once they all loose their perks as a result of a very poor economy they  > > will be willing to change. > " > Are American consultants willing   Correction: able  ' > to take 50% pay cuts to prevent their  > job from moving to India ?  F Well, let's see now: my pay gets halved but my expenses stay the same:G groceries, fuel for heating and commuting, my house payments, my debts, E cost of clothing, ... none of those go down just because my pay does. & Most of them actually go up over time.  F How well would that work for you? Work it out on a spreadsheet or justH onpaper: you pay gets halved, but your expenses continue to climb. WHere do *YOU* end up?  G > Take this to a much longer term and increases in efficiency will mean H > that only a small percentage of humans will need to work to supply allE > of humanity with the goods and services.  And because there will be G > competition to get those jobs, wages will be low and tax breaks high.   G Um, JF? This is not Star Trek. We still need to earn money to trade for G necessities. We can't just ask the "magic wall" for food and get it. We G will still need to work in some form to get money to trade for stuff we  need.   D > Consider Boeing's selection of its head office a few years ago. ItI > basically went on an RFP asking which state was willing to grant Boeing I > the highest tax breaks. It chose Illinois. And everytime it has a large F > project, it goes on an RFP to see which state is willing to give the/ > biggest tax breaks to locate the plant there.   % That's called controlling your costs.   D > If Boeing, the epitome of private capitalist enterprise in the USA  
 Debatable.  H > depends on tax breaks, then you have to expect tax breaks to be a tool7 > used by governmnets at all levels all over the world.   B Seems fair, but not as simple as it seems. Hence, this sun-thread.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:14:56 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ) Message-ID: <ObGZe.9712$P7.8922@fe06.lga>    David J Dachtera wrote: H > Well, let's see now: my pay gets halved but my expenses stay the same:I > groceries, fuel for heating and commuting, my house payments, my debts, G > cost of clothing, ... none of those go down just because my pay does. ( > Most of them actually go up over time.  B Like it or not, if the particular job you're doing can be done by I someone in Bangalore or China for much less money, then you are overpaid   and your job is at risk.  I This isn't some new revelation, some new economic way of life, it's been  A that way since the very first employee/employer and seller/buyer  D relationship. It doesn't matter if the job is buggy whip maker or a  particular job in high-tech   G Travel back 100 years and I'm sure we'd see a lot of buggy whip makers  @ very upset about their future with the advent of the automobile.  ? Now, some of those buggy whip makers chose to spend their time  A complaining and trying to resist the economic tide, while others  H understood the economic reality the future would surely bring, accepted H it and adapted. They increased their marketability in a variety of ways F - switching careers, specializing, moving into parallel trades, etc -  thus securing their future.   F I'll let you figure out which group of buggy whip makers fared better  and which group you're in.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:46:43 -0700 * From: Arthur <no.body.lives.here@xoxy.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <k3dej1dhvedbepvhvci0mvu1nngipb5r1f@4ax.com>  B The point is that if HP is so important to the French economy thenC they are in deep shit.  The W. European economy is in deep shit and E their political left and super power unions is the reason.  W. Europe F does not know what it wants to be if and when it ever grows up.  To beE fair we should also include Sweden one the most non business friendly ! places in that part of the world.    arthur ========8 On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 06:24:05 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote:  F >On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:28:11 -0400, Blash <blash1@comcast.net> wrote: > # >>kashe@sonic.net eloquently posts:  >>I >>> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:47:37 -0400, Blash <blash1@comcast.net> wrote:  >>>  >>>> Arthur says:  >>>>  ; >>>>> Now lets hear the roar from the idots in the audience  >>>>  # >>>> Right.....c'mon you  i d o t s  >>> * >>> Right, lower-than-whaleshit typo nazi. >>K >>    If this crap wasn't cross-posted all over the net, your short-comings % >>would not have been exposed........  >> >  >	Did you have a point in mind?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 19:59:41 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <433739D5.ED2C19E4@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: H > Well, let's see now: my pay gets halved but my expenses stay the same:I > groceries, fuel for heating and commuting, my house payments, my debts, G > cost of clothing, ... none of those go down just because my pay does. ( > Most of them actually go up over time.  E Yep. Same with airline pilots who get very nice pay and plush working B conditions. Problem is that once you expect such pay, you set yourE lifestyle accordingly and buy a large house with mortgage appropriate @ for your pay level, make X kids and buy Y SUVs according to yourF payscale. If they lower the payscale, you may need to ditch a few SUVs$ and kids to reduce your expenses :-)  G But in the end, if pilots are getting unsustainable salaries, they have E to go down. And that is what is happening in the USA right now.  Even H with lowered salaries, they still have 1000 times better life than folksG in the middle of africa and still well above poverty levels in your own 	 country.    H And in the case of the airline industry, it isn't just "global economy".H It is local competition from the likes of Southwest, Jetblue and AirtranE (formerly Valuejet) which are forcing the old fat legacy companies to  shape up or die.  C In the computer industry, Wintel is what is killing the "legacies". : Remember Digital that refused to compete against Wintel ?   F Look at the big expensive consulting companies. They are now competingG against low cost Indian companies, and the Indian companies are winning  big for real work.  = What the big expensive consulting companies have left are the E "political" contracts where some managers who need the clout of a big E expensive consulting company to support a decision (and being able to 1 later blame them for the failure of the project).   F So, you might still find lucrative high-hourly-rate contracts here andC there, but if VMS consultants continue to charge exhorbitant rates, H corporations will still choose WIntel simply because they can hire cheapH consultants who still have acne to install and configure point-and-click- software on their inexpensive wintel systems.   G You, of all people, who have been fighting for low cost VMS systems for G small business should know that having access to low cost VMS resources G is extremely important if one is ever to ghrow VMS back into its former : markets because those former markets now have competition.      H > How well would that work for you? Work it out on a spreadsheet or justJ > onpaper: you pay gets halved, but your expenses continue to climb. WHere > do *YOU* end up?  G You cut your expenses. So you don't live in as much luxury anymore, you E keep your SUVs a few more years and have fewer SUVs in your driveway, C don't replace your broken TV with a 50" plasma flatscreen etc etc.    B Pilots are very much like VMS experts: if you lose your job, thereG aren't any opportunities elsewhere. So better take a cut in salary then E to be without a job and get 0 salary. People adapt to lower salaries.   I > Um, JF? This is not Star Trek. We still need to earn money to trade for I > necessities. We can't just ask the "magic wall" for food and get it. We I > will still need to work in some form to get money to trade for stuff we  > need.   E Exactly. So what happens when you only need 30% of your population to 7 produce 100% of the goods and services needed by 100% ?   F Imagine the massive unemployment numbers if China had fully mechanised
 farming.         > F > > Consider Boeing's selection of its head office a few years ago. It  ' > That's called controlling your costs.   H From Boeing's point of view, correct. But it is still a subsidy when theB state gives tax breaks to lure a company. No different from France> giving HP a tax break to locate a plant in a city and generateH employment in that city. It doesn't make one's economy unsustainable. ItG is part of bnusiness life to go and beg for tax breaks from governments G when you are big enough. The irony is that the bigger job producers are F the smaller businesses which don't get such tax breaks because none ofJ the small businesses are big enough to attract the government's attention.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:07:56 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs : Message-ID: <wZGZe.5990$Am6.613@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>  @ "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message % news:4337290A.65A6D5C5@comcast.net...  > JF Mezei wrote:  >> >> "Michael Johnson, PE" wrote: L >> > based economy.  The trouble is there are too many French workers out toI >> > protect their perks so nothing ever changes for the better.  I guess L >> > once they all loose their perks as a result of a very poor economy they >> > will be willing to change.  >># >> Are American consultants willing  >  > Correction: able > ( >> to take 50% pay cuts to prevent their >> job from moving to India ?  > H > Well, let's see now: my pay gets halved but my expenses stay the same:I > groceries, fuel for heating and commuting, my house payments, my debts, G > cost of clothing, ... none of those go down just because my pay does. ( > Most of them actually go up over time. > H > How well would that work for you? Work it out on a spreadsheet or justJ > onpaper: you pay gets halved, but your expenses continue to climb. WHere > do *YOU* end up?    F You are quite right David that the india v local workforce isn't just M attitude.  10pence goes a helluva long way in india.  10 pence won't get you  I squat in England.  Similar setup if you convert to dollars.  The cost of  M living is so low in india.  Couple that with the exchange rate of the dollar  M or pound against the rupee you can't compete financially with Indian labour.  C Lets see the average indian survive on 50 cents a week in america.     ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:13:34 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ; Message-ID: <O2HZe.6007$Am6.1149@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   D "Z" <Z@no.spam> wrote in message news:ObGZe.9712$P7.8922@fe06.lga... > David J Dachtera wrote: I >> Well, let's see now: my pay gets halved but my expenses stay the same: J >> groceries, fuel for heating and commuting, my house payments, my debts,H >> cost of clothing, ... none of those go down just because my pay does.) >> Most of them actually go up over time.  > L > Like it or not, if the particular job you're doing can be done by someone L > in Bangalore or China for much less money, then you are overpaid and your  > job is at risk.  > K > This isn't some new revelation, some new economic way of life, it's been  C > that way since the very first employee/employer and seller/buyer  F > relationship. It doesn't matter if the job is buggy whip maker or a  > particular job in high-tech  > I > Travel back 100 years and I'm sure we'd see a lot of buggy whip makers  B > very upset about their future with the advent of the automobile. > M > Now, some of those buggy whip makers chose to spend their time complaining  F > and trying to resist the economic tide, while others understood the K > economic reality the future would surely bring, accepted it and adapted.  F > They increased their marketability in a variety of ways - switching J > careers, specializing, moving into parallel trades, etc - thus securing  > their future.  > L > I'll let you figure out which group of buggy whip makers fared better and  > which group you're in.  K I'm afraid the dollar, pound and euro far outvalue the rupee.  The cost of  L living in europe or usa is also several orders of magnitude higher than for M the average indian.  As it is Britain is a nation of shopkeepers and service  E providers.  Most manufacturing has gone to the east.  However due to  K technology and cheap phones the service/call centres are now outsourced to  K india.  That just leaves landlords, debt collectors and salesmen.  Perhaps  M the odd bank teller but internet banking, hole in the wall and offshore call  L centres are eroding those jobs too.  Now again the internet stiffs you over G again cos internet stores have lower overheads and undercut the retail  L chains.  If Mr Z your job is lost to I.T. or foreign labour you won't be so 
 indifferent.     ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:30:01 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <433740EF.E624D8B3@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: H > How well would that work for you? Work it out on a spreadsheet or justJ > onpaper: you pay gets halved, but your expenses continue to climb. WHere > do *YOU* end up?    5 You can start by buying your socks and underwear from F Wallmart/Kmart/Target/Dollar-stores instead of Abercrombie and Fitch. F You may not have the "snob" satisfaction that your underwear is coming@ from a fancy luxury shop, but in real life does it really make a difference ?  F Notice how even in the USA, people are shifting buying patterns to lowI cost shopping and the luxury shops are seeing their market niches narrow.     G Yes, you need to change your lifestyle when your salary is reduced. And D you may need to prioritise expenses wherea now, you buy whatever youN want whenever you want. But you can still live quite well with reduced salary.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:27:12 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs : Message-ID: <AfHZe.6052$Am6.201@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>  # <kashe@sonic.net> wrote in message  2 news:o93ej1tfsa8u17e2r68va1gug60m4aheum@4ax.com...C > On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:46:40 GMT, "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com>  > wrote: >  >>6 >>"Ron Hunter" <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in message( >>news:r4eZe.13058$L45.10075@fe07.lga... >>> mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote:  >>>> d b turner wrote:> >>>>> I was in France about 4 weeks ago - beautiful along the  >>>>> midi-pyrenees - 	 >>>>> but G >>>>> the people were the rudest, most unfriendly people - and I speak   >>>>> French >>>>> so
 >>>>> they >>>>> hasve no excuse. >>>>> > >>>>> (I am a Brit -mum is French Dad Brit - I live in GA USA. >>>>>  >>>>> < >>>>> Even the food has gotten lame since my last trip in 98G >>>>> And for those that are blinkered about the Frenchman's animosity  
 >>>>> towards + >>>>> their saviours - it's all bloody true 8 >>>>> Theyt hate the British and theyt detest Americans. >>>> >>>> >>>>G >>>> This thread has nothing to do with your racism against the French.  >>>>C >>>> The truth is that HP is showing the same lack of real strategy  >>>> in the US.  >>>>? >>>> Our US HP friends are also laid off because of the current 9 >>>> trends of brilliant strategists backed up by no less 5 >>>> brilliant stock analysts who have no other ideas $ >>>> to try to help the stock price. >>>>, >>>> No doing a substraction is not a vision >>>> nor a strategy. >>>> >>>>/ >>>> One difference though : French laws permit - >>>> a strike whereas it is almost impossible  >>>> within HP in the US.  >>>>, >>>> When a company claims all the time that4 >>>> Ethic is important to it and that its employees4 >>>> are its best asset, it should not be authorized1 >>>> to lay off while increasing at the same time ! >>>> its profits and distributing ' >>>> millions of $ to its top managers.  >>>>J >>> The wisdom of laying off employees to improve the bottom line, aside,  >>> the K >>> thing that amazes me is that people somehow think a company OWES them a ( >>> job.  WHERE did this idea come from? >>I >>There are all kinds of subsidies and tax breaks given by governments to K >>create factories and thus jobs.  If you then take the money and run what   >>doK >>you expect a government to do.  In france the past is forgotten, you can   >>beK >>an ex nazi industrialist who made munitions for the nazi war machine but   >>you I >>are welcome here.  In france the past is forgotten, fought in two world L >>wars, want a asylum, well you can sod off.  If you want to come to france  >>to5 >>live and work you have to bring a factory with you.  >> > > > Bullshit -- I have a friend who's lived in Paris for fifteenH > years who arrived with little but the ability to think and write. He's@ > anmazed at what we USians putting up with from the government. > > > His daughers also got an excellent education for very little > money.  I We have noticed how the french ignore laws they don't like especially EU  J directives.  Whereas we are stupid enough to enforce every single one.  I L especially dislike the way the farmers union and police one are linked.  So G when farmers or lorry drivers create an illegal blockade the police do  F nothing.  Further more any attempt for british lorry drivers to break M through they find police equipment such as the 'stinger' wheel trap employed  H and then the police dutifully arrest the british truck driver. It seems E everytime the french decide they are paying too much for petrol they  K blockade the docks so holding britain to ransom.  Personally if the french  I police don't do anything then the British military should clear the way.  D Same goes for the next round of sheep burning when the french start $ campaigning against the competition. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:47:42 -0700  From: Frank <fb@notspam.com>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs - Message-ID: <NyHZe.13530$GQ4.4523@fed1read05>    Bill Todd wrote: > Michael Johnson, PE wrote: >  > ...  > I >> Personally, I prefer an economic system where hard work and ingenuity  H >> is rewarded and not one where mediocrity and stagnation are the norm. >  > K > I guess that pretty much rules out the U.S. these days - but it would be  I > nice to think that such an environment survives somewhere in the world.  >  > - bill Yep...sure does. FB   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:41:56 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ) Message-ID: <ltHZe.9795$eH2.998@fe02.lga>    ian lincoln wrote:E > If Mr Z your job is lost to I.T. or foreign labour you won't be so   > indifferent.     Been there, done that.  C Not even the most recent period of protracted unemployment (9 mos)  E turned me into a complainer or a corporate hater. I used my newfound  H spare time to update and improve my skills and jump back into the labor  pool.   H It seems that many others (here) have decided to spend their spare time F less wisely, simply raging blindly against the evil corporate machine I and fantasizing about how much better life would be if only they were in  K a union. I'm not sure that "skill" will help them land a new or better job.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:01:31 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs = Message-ID: <f6qdnSfI78Xx1areRVn-gA@metrocastcablevision.com>    Dave Froble wrote:   ...   G > Frankly, I'm appalled at how things have turned out.  The USA is the  3 > major victim.  Our whole way of life has changed.   I Self-inflicted wounds do not make one a 'victim', Dave:  they just prove  I that a country is seriously deranged and/or out of control.  You already  H appear to agree about the nature of the problem (at least insofar as it D relates to internal U.S. matters):  now you just need to find a way B around the denial about who's responsible for it, and then you'll ? perhaps be ready to start trying to do something to correct it.   D Changing one person's life-long myopia at a time can be a very slow  process, but it's a start.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:46:15 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <433752E6.649DF4D6@comcast.net>    Z wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote: J > > Well, let's see now: my pay gets halved but my expenses stay the same:K > > groceries, fuel for heating and commuting, my house payments, my debts, I > > cost of clothing, ... none of those go down just because my pay does. * > > Most of them actually go up over time. > C > Like it or not, if the particular job you're doing can be done by J > someone in Bangalore or China for much less money, then you are overpaid > and your job is at risk.   Depends.   Next Lesson. Rational Thought.  C  1. Give at least three reasons why companies that sought to reduce @ their costs by off-shoirng certain functions are being forced toC "re-import" those jobs back to the U.S. Be specific, cite examples.   J > This isn't some new revelation, some new economic way of life, it's beenB > that way since the very first employee/employer and seller/buyerE > relationship. It doesn't matter if the job is buggy whip maker or a  > particular job in high-tech  > H > Travel back 100 years and I'm sure we'd see a lot of buggy whip makersB > very upset about their future with the advent of the automobile.  G  2. Describe in detail at least two economic factors to invalidate such * an assumption. Be specific, cite exmaples.  @ > Now, some of those buggy whip makers chose to spend their timeB > complaining and trying to resist the economic tide, while othersI > understood the economic reality the future would surely bring, accepted I > it and adapted. They increased their marketability in a variety of ways G > - switching careers, specializing, moving into parallel trades, etc -  > thus securing their future.  > G > I'll let you figure out which group of buggy whip makers fared better  > and which group you're in.  G  3. Cite at least three examples of adaptive trades which have remained C in the same form for roughly the time period mentioned earlier (100  years). Be specific.  C So, how are you enjoying being back in school and not having to pay D tuition (other than your internet access fees, electric bill, etc.)?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:48:55 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <43375387.50D5B295@comcast.net>    Z wrote: >  > ian lincoln wrote:F > > If Mr Z your job is lost to I.T. or foreign labour you won't be so > > indifferent. >  > Been there, done that. > D > Not even the most recent period of protracted unemployment (9 mos)F > turned me into a complainer or a corporate hater. I used my newfoundI > spare time to update and improve my skills and jump back into the labor  > pool.  > I > It seems that many others (here) have decided to spend their spare time G > less wisely, simply raging blindly against the evil corporate machine J > and fantasizing about how much better life would be if only they were inM > a union. I'm not sure that "skill" will help them land a new or better job.   G Too bad you didn't develop yourself intellectually a the sime time your D developing yourself professionally. You'd know better than make such' outlandish and indefensible statements.   C (Statement of opinion, no teaching this time - no charge for that.)    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 02:26:17 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <1tmej1561734mmc242n2gieqg973mekh77@4ax.com>  A On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:27:12 GMT, "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com>  wrote:   >  ><kashe@sonic.net> wrote  ? >> Bullshit -- I have a friend who's lived in Paris for fifteen I >> years who arrived with little but the ability to think and write. He's A >> anmazed at what we USians putting up with from the government.  >>? >> His daughers also got an excellent education for very little 	 >> money.  > J >We have noticed how the french ignore laws they don't like especially EU K >directives.  Whereas we are stupid enough to enforce every single one.  I  M >especially dislike the way the farmers union and police one are linked.  So  H >when farmers or lorry drivers create an illegal blockade the police do G >nothing.  Further more any attempt for british lorry drivers to break  N >through they find police equipment such as the 'stinger' wheel trap employed ? >and then the police dutifully arrest the british truck driver.     8 	Sounds more like the hired Pinkerton thugs during labor problems in the US long ago.   > It seems  F >everytime the french decide they are paying too much for petrol they L >blockade the docks so holding britain to ransom.  Personally if the french J >police don't do anything then the British military should clear the way.   ? 	Sure -- they can hook up ith Shrub and inade another sovereign  country.  E >Same goes for the next round of sheep burning when the french start  % >campaigning against the competition.  >>   >   " 	My corporation -- right or wrong?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:32:18 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <43375DB2.A82B4FC5@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote: J > > Well, let's see now: my pay gets halved but my expenses stay the same:K > > groceries, fuel for heating and commuting, my house payments, my debts, I > > cost of clothing, ... none of those go down just because my pay does. * > > Most of them actually go up over time. > G > Yep. Same with airline pilots who get very nice pay and plush working 
 > conditions.   D I remember in another thread you mentioned taking up flying lessons.D How's that going? Have you actually had to plan and conduct a flight= yet? (I still have my license, but haven't flown since 1989.)   F Assuming you have, consider the amount of work that went into planning@ and then conducting that flight: studying the maps, checking theC weather, filing the flight plan, doing the pre-flight, mounting the B cockpit, starting up, getting clearance, taxiing, getting take-offA clearance, departing, climbing out, taking up your first heading, G pilotage, communication, ... Now, add in the complexities of instrument D flight rules, corporate requirements, federal requirements unique toC commercial aviation, dealing with a flight crew, caterers, security F gaurds and clearances, holding hundres of lives in the same hands thatF operate the plane's flight controls ... going away and coming home two= or more days later after mandatory rest periods and such, ...   E Study up about it. You'll find that pilots do get good pay - and they C earn every cent of it, and then some. "Plush" is hardly a word many E commercial pilots would use to describe their working conditions. The H pilot's seat of a Cessna, Beech or whatever small plane is practically aF "luxury automobile" compared to the almost military envirnoment on the& flight deck of an commercial airliner.  8 > Problem is that once you expect such pay, you set yourG > lifestyle accordingly and buy a large house with mortgage appropriate B > for your pay level, make X kids and buy Y SUVs according to yourH > payscale. If they lower the payscale, you may need to ditch a few SUVs& > and kids to reduce your expenses :-)  F You've been watching too much TV or something. Given the length of theF average commercial pilot's high-paid career (most fly for "below scaleA until they "make the big time"), there's little no opportunity to  emulate the "fat cats".   I > But in the end, if pilots are getting unsustainable salaries, they have G > to go down. And that is what is happening in the USA right now.  Even J > with lowered salaries, they still have 1000 times better life than folksI > in the middle of africa and still well above poverty levels in your own 
 > country.  E Same can be said for the bulk of the middle class. What's your point?   J > And in the case of the airline industry, it isn't just "global economy".J > It is local competition from the likes of Southwest, Jetblue and AirtranG > (formerly Valuejet) which are forcing the old fat legacy companies to  > shape up or die.  H Ah. Now we're getting closer to the REAL problem: the corporate fat catsG got so used to the government subsidies and bail-outs, they didn't have G to care whether the airline was profitable or not, just reasonably safe G and relatively punctual. Now that they've got to "tighten the corporate H belt", they're into uncharted territory, and they're eminently clueless.  E > In the computer industry, Wintel is what is killing the "legacies". ; > Remember Digital that refused to compete against Wintel ?   G Well, yes and no. Certainly, the VTs we used to provide to the desktops F are now being replaced by "COE" thin-clients at twice or more the cost< of a new VT (adjusted for inflation). However, for demandingD environments such the one I work in (Healthcare), the "swiss-cheese"H security and boot every hour nature of Mickey$lop practically guaranteesH that it will never displace the back-end servers that keep our patients'  data safe, secure and available.  H > Look at the big expensive consulting companies. They are now competingI > against low cost Indian companies, and the Indian companies are winning  > big for real work.  ! Not where *I* make *MY* living...   ? > What the big expensive consulting companies have left are the G > "political" contracts where some managers who need the clout of a big G > expensive consulting company to support a decision (and being able to 3 > later blame them for the failure of the project).  > H > So, you might still find lucrative high-hourly-rate contracts here andE > there, but if VMS consultants continue to charge exhorbitant rates, J > corporations will still choose WIntel simply because they can hire cheapJ > consultants who still have acne to install and configure point-and-click/ > software on their inexpensive wintel systems.  > I > You, of all people, who have been fighting for low cost VMS systems for I > small business should know that having access to low cost VMS resources I > is extremely important if one is ever to ghrow VMS back into its former < > markets because those former markets now have competition.  E ...and that remains where we must focus our efforts, as it is crystal 0 clear that HP has no intention of ever doing so.  J > > How well would that work for you? Work it out on a spreadsheet or justL > > onpaper: you pay gets halved, but your expenses continue to climb. WHere > > do *YOU* end up? > E > You cut your expenses. So you don't live in as much luxury anymore,   F O.k. Let's explore that. First, what do *YOU* consider luxury? A warm,H dry place to sleep? Clothes that aren't full of holes and are reasonablyH presentable? A pantry and refrigerator with at least enough food for theB week? A car (not SUV) that reliably gets you to and from the train station?  F Believe it or else, *THAT* is the middle-class environment in the U.S.B Not sure what he picture in your mind might be  (what you consider
 "luxury").  G Second, without moving into an even smaller home, probably adding 30 or G 40 miles to your commute to the train station (and a 40 mile train ride F thereafter) because that where the "affordable" homes would be on yourD now-halved salary, how do you get your property taxes to actually goE down? (Hint: you don't, they never go down, only up.) ...and with the C increased commute, how do you actually get your fuel expenses to go C down? (Hint: you don't. Your fuel expenses will quadruple or more.)    What am I missing here, JF?    > you G > keep your SUVs a few more years and have fewer SUVs in your driveway,   F Granted, there was a time when I owned four vehicles, all of them usedE and quite old and all of them paid-for. A fifteen year-old panel van, 5 and three cars. The wife and I have one apiece today.   ? How many do you think the average person has (per person) now?    D > don't replace your broken TV with a 50" plasma flatscreen etc etc.  G You really have been watching too much TV, or at least, nothing of much G value on the TV. The last TV we replaced was 23+ years old, it was last F year and we replaced it with a 26-inch CRT model (not even HD-capable) using our income tax refund.  D > Pilots are very much like VMS experts: if you lose your job, thereI > aren't any opportunities elsewhere. So better take a cut in salary then G > to be without a job and get 0 salary. People adapt to lower salaries.   D ...where possible. Otherwise, they do like so many VMS professionalsD have done and go work in the commodity crap market just to eke out aC living. Of course, some do become successful entrepreneurs - that's B where the TRUE "job" security is found: between your own two ears.  K > > Um, JF? This is not Star Trek. We still need to earn money to trade for K > > necessities. We can't just ask the "magic wall" for food and get it. We K > > will still need to work in some form to get money to trade for stuff we 	 > > need.  > G > Exactly. So what happens when you only need 30% of your population to 9 > produce 100% of the goods and services needed by 100% ?   = Not likely to happen. Politically, it is too "incorrect", and G economically it is infeasible to have a market-based economy absent the G consumer market. As has been said here many times before: no market, no 9 product. No product, no business. No business, no profit.   - Shoot both your feet off and be done with it.   H > Imagine the massive unemployment numbers if China had fully mechanised
 > farming.  D Given the nature of the population, the land and the crops, not very likely.    > > H > > > Consider Boeing's selection of its head office a few years ago. It > ) > > That's called controlling your costs.  > J > From Boeing's point of view, correct. But it is still a subsidy when the+ > state gives tax breaks to lure a company.   G Well, yes and no. The company puts out less in taxes, but the community D is not financially burdened by or committed to the enterprise beyond? those tax breaks. The company must still make its own way - the ? community only suffers if the venture fails and jobs evaporate.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 02:20:51 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <4mmej11bhbdqmbrk1pn5b07771s6uu7j18@4ax.com>  4 On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:59:53 GMT, "Dennis D. Carter"# <dennis.carter1@verizon.net> wrote:   M >I don't give serious consideration to suggestions from a kook.  You and the  M >rest of the spoiled brats from the sixties are as useless and detached from  + >reality as the ideology you rant on about.    	Punk.   > K >I suggest you take your "larger than a grape" intellect and direct you're  L >failed ideological babble to a more appropriate site, like alt.politics or  >alt.usenet.kooks.  2 	... leaving alt.pompous.assholes all to yourself.   >  >Dennis D. Carter  > 2 >"ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> wrote in message 4 >news:gEDZe.5340$Am6.66@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk... >>D >> "Dennis D. Carter" <dennis.carter1@verizon.net> wrote in message ' >> news:GiBZe.2949$211.1518@trnddc08... K >>> The only pollution we need to do something about is the garbage oozing  * >>> from between your ears to the key pad. >>> Dennis D. Carter >>J >> I suggest you leave this discussion to those with brains larger than a 	 >> grape.  >>   >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 02:22:31 GMT  From: kashe@sonic.net = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <oomej1tisn1f46q5phkak91nf4nfvs187t@4ax.com>  * On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:46:43 -0700, Arthur$ <no.body.lives.here@xoxy.net> wrote:  C >The point is that if HP is so important to the French economy then D >they are in deep shit.  The W. European economy is in deep shit andF >their political left and super power unions is the reason.  W. EuropeG >does not know what it wants to be if and when it ever grows up.  To be F >fair we should also include Sweden one the most non business friendly  ; 	A truly elegant way to say that they care more about their 5 people than some global conglomerate's business plan.     " >places in that part of the world. >  >arthur 	 >======== 9 >On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 06:24:05 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote:  > G >>On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:28:11 -0400, Blash <blash1@comcast.net> wrote:  >>$ >>>kashe@sonic.net eloquently posts: >>> J >>>> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:47:37 -0400, Blash <blash1@comcast.net> wrote: >>>>   >>>>> Arthur says: >>>>> < >>>>>> Now lets hear the roar from the idots in the audience >>>>> $ >>>>> Right.....c'mon you  i d o t s >>>>  + >>>> Right, lower-than-whaleshit typo nazi.  >>> L >>>    If this crap wasn't cross-posted all over the net, your short-comings& >>>would not have been exposed........ >>>  >>  >>	Did you have a point in mind?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:37:31 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs * Message-ID: <43375EEB.962DD12@comcast.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote: J > > How well would that work for you? Work it out on a spreadsheet or justL > > onpaper: you pay gets halved, but your expenses continue to climb. WHere > > do *YOU* end up? > 7 > You can start by buying your socks and underwear from G > Wallmart/Kmart/Target/Dollar-stores instead of Abercrombie and Fitch.   " You really *DO* watch too much TV!  H > You may not have the "snob" satisfaction that your underwear is comingB > from a fancy luxury shop, but in real life does it really make a > difference ?  H Um, JF? I'm happy if my shorts don't chafe and my socks don't have holes in them.  H > Notice how even in the USA, people are shifting buying patterns to lowK > cost shopping and the luxury shops are seeing their market niches narrow.   G Actually, odd as it may sound, "niche" market shops are doing a booming D business as new home values are within reach of less than 10% of the actual work-force.  E > Yes, you need to change your lifestyle when your salary is reduced.   G Yeah, no more eating, no more electric lights or gas heat - back to the D wood-burning fireplace and savenging scrap oil to burn in the lamps.   > And F > you may need to prioritise expenses wherea now, you buy whatever you > want whenever you want.   H May I suggest a money management course at your local community college?  8 > But you can still live quite well with reduced salary.  D ...as long as you're willing to deal with the complexities of havingF filed bankruptcy and moving into a cardboard carton under an overpass, sure!    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:49:12 -0500 ! From: spiced-ham?No@big.isp (Don) = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs : Message-ID: <dIedncW_pO01_KrenZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@comcast.com>  F The west will become poorer, the east richer,until there is a balance?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:32:01 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <43376B8A.7A774E81@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: F > I remember in another thread you mentioned taking up flying lessons.  H Please disregards everything the nomen asshole says and don't mistake it for something I say.  G > Study up about it. You'll find that pilots do get good pay - and they E > earn every cent of it, and then some. "Plush" is hardly a word many D > commercial pilots would use to describe their working conditions.   F Why is it then that a jetblue pilot flying an A320 works more and getsB paid less than United Pilots who fly the A320 ? (at least prior to United's bankrupcy) ?   F And in the case of Jetblue and Southwest, their planes are the biggestG these airline fly, so there is no chance for "promotion" to bigger jets E , which is the case at United which flies up to the 747 (where pilots ' ear a lot mroe money than on the A320).   J > Ah. Now we're getting closer to the REAL problem: the corporate fat catsI > got so used to the government subsidies and bail-outs, they didn't have I > to care whether the airline was profitable or not, just reasonably safe  > and relatively punctual.    F That isn't the whole story. North american airlines made it a lifetimeF carrer to be a pilot or flight attendant. So during the course of thatF career, the workers expectd their salaries to grow even if their tasks remained the same.  E Singapore Airlines make "flight attendant" a temporary stepping stone F job leading to office work or other duries. So the real goal wasn't toE have nice pretty young FAs on the planes but rather to make sure that G they didn't have a whole bunch of very senior flight attendants with so B many years of service that they demanded executive level salaries.  E For pilots it is a bit different. If you have a 747 worth 250 million H bucks and with 375 lives, you want an experienced pilot to drive it. But9 since flight attendants don't have "work experience" with D crashes/emergencies, whether they have 1 or 25 years experience, theH training they get in the cabin simulator is the same. So the younger FAs# are just as good as the older ones.    J > > Look at the big expensive consulting companies. They are now competingK > > against low cost Indian companies, and the Indian companies are winning  > > big for real work. > # > Not where *I* make *MY* living...   H Olsen though the same about Unix/Windows never replacing VMS. Palmer andD folks like Winkler thought the opposite and made it happen. Don't beE complacent and just expect that no matter how much VMS costs, it will K remain in its niches. Its niches have grown smaller and smaller every year.   = Even the proprietary Unixes are losing market share to Linux.   H > O.k. Let's explore that. First, what do *YOU* consider luxury? A warm,J > dry place to sleep? Clothes that aren't full of holes and are reasonablyJ > presentable? A pantry and refrigerator with at least enough food for theD > week? A car (not SUV) that reliably gets you to and from the train
 > station?  5 Pilots or legacy airlines live VERY comfortably.  Not 8 millionaire-comfortable. But definitly very comfortable.  I > Second, without moving into an even smaller home, probably adding 30 or I > 40 miles to your commute to the train station (and a 40 mile train ride  > thereafter)   G No, the point is to move into a smaller home, buy smaller cars etc.  If B your competition lives that way, then continuing to live on higher. salaries can't make your employer competitive.   > What am I missing here, JF?   > The concept of lowering standard of living due to competition.  @ > How many do you think the average person has (per person) now?  F In the USA, the average person has too many cars and not enough publicF transportation. But that is another issue. Consider how much yoru costG of living would go down if you could eliminate one or more cars because F there was good public transport. Consider how much your cost of living< woudl go down if health care costs for your family went down significantly.    H A country's infrasctructure and services are a great part of deciding ifE a country is competitive on world market or not.  If the USA's helath F car costs represent 18% of GDP whilst other western nation have health? care at roughlt 12%, then your country is 6% less competitive.    F If your country requires roughly 1 car used every day for each workingD adult, then those are costs of living which are substantially higherE than countries where a larger proportion of population can use public H transport on a daily basis. (consider not only fuel, but insurance, cost9 of car, cost or maintenance/repair, parking at work etc).     I > Well, yes and no. The company puts out less in taxes, but the community F > is not financially burdened by or committed to the enterprise beyondA > those tax breaks. The company must still make its own way - the A > community only suffers if the venture fails and jobs evaporate.     B It is a subsidy. Period. A tax break is the same as the govermment1 giving a grant and then charging normal tax rate.   G Consider this irony: Boeing accuses Airbus of getting direct subsidies. B The european government arrange for financing with fully repayableE loans. Doesn't cost taxpayers any money (unless the projects flops in D which case the government garantees the loans). Boeing gets real taxE breaks from local, state and federal governments which cost taxpayers ; real money (lost revenus). Which is a subsidy again ???????   C Subsidies are intelligent strategic investments by governments. The C problem is one of fairness and preventing abusive use of subsidies.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:13:43 -0700 8 From: "Adam Russell" <adamrussell@sbcglobal.net.invalid>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <3ppactFbkk69U1@individual.net>   7 "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in message  + news:q9CdnX6Fa7NHgareRVn-rA@giganews.com...  > David J Dachtera wrote:  >> "Michael Johnson, PE" wrote:  >> >>>David J Dachtera wrote: >>> 
 >>>>[snip]L >>>>I'm seeing in these threads a perpetuation of the flawed perception thatL >>>>workers everywhere are overpaid, lazy fat-cats, unlike the executives ofJ >>>>their employers who live modestly and well within their means, are notI >>>>paid 30 to 3000 times the salary of their lowest paid hourly workers, I >>>>and who strive to re-invest profits back into the business and/or pay E >>>>dividends to their investors rather than indulge in luxurious and  >>>>extravagant lifestyles.  >>>> >>>>As always, prove me wrong. >>> E >>>I don't have to prove anything.  Just look at the current state of C >>>France's economy.  The proof is already staring you in the face.  >> >>J >> Only proves that the model doesn't work. Doesn't identify the cause(s). > M > So we all agree socialism doesn't work?  Hmmm... what was your first clue?  L > The dismal French economy or the collapse of the Soviet Union? Even China  > is embracing capitalism.  L Yes, and look at Cuba.  Its been on the brink of collapse for 50 odd years. L Soons the old man dies they will embrace capitalism again.  haha that'll be  great.     ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:21:41 -0700 8 From: "Adam Russell" <adamrussell@sbcglobal.net.invalid>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <3pparsFb99b7U1@individual.net>   D "Z" <Z@no.spam> wrote in message news:ObGZe.9712$P7.8922@fe06.lga... > David J Dachtera wrote: I >> Well, let's see now: my pay gets halved but my expenses stay the same: J >> groceries, fuel for heating and commuting, my house payments, my debts,H >> cost of clothing, ... none of those go down just because my pay does.) >> Most of them actually go up over time.  > L > Like it or not, if the particular job you're doing can be done by someone L > in Bangalore or China for much less money, then you are overpaid and your  > job is at risk.  > K > This isn't some new revelation, some new economic way of life, it's been  C > that way since the very first employee/employer and seller/buyer  F > relationship. It doesn't matter if the job is buggy whip maker or a  > particular job in high-tech   I It'll balance out.  Eventually the cost of living will fall in the US to  F what it costs in China.  I guess margins will have to adjust as well.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:36:22 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. + Message-ID: <4336E015.2D7AC7A3@comcast.net>    Z wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote: M > >>>When business proves it can be trusted to do the right thing, then there D > >>>will be no need for labor to organize to protect its interests. > K > >>I guess that's one way to explain the demise of labor unions in the US.  > K > > Non capisco. Are you saying that business in the U.S. *CAN* be trusted? * > > Ever heard of "Enron"? ..."Tyco"? ...? > 3 > Ever hear "the exception doesn't prove the rule?"   B So, by that logic, all the increased security measures we see as aA result of 9/11 are unneeded because that event was a case of "the " exception doesn't prove the rule".   Yes? No?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:38:31 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. 0 Message-ID: <11jdurgd3rvbjfb@corp.supernews.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:   D > So, by that logic, all the increased security measures we see as aC > result of 9/11 are unneeded because that event was a case of "the $ > exception doesn't prove the rule". > 
 > Yes? No? >   A 'All' the 'security measures' are a kneejerk reflexive action by  J politicians who want to be see as 'doing something'.  And what did we get?  0 Curtailing of freedom on an unprecedented scale.   National identity 'papers'.   F Fucking cowards who will choose security over freedom.  A slap in the F face to all those in the past that valued freedom enough to fight and @ die for it.  All so the cowards could squander their sacrifices.  G It's been quoted many times, but the quantity in no way diminishes the  I validity of Ben Franklin's statement, "those who would sacriface freedom   for security deserve neither".  F Note, I'm not against security, I'm against placing it above freedom, H and specifically the measures that don't improve security, just make it / look like some politician is "doing something".    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:44:45 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. , Message-ID: <4336FE26.3900CCF0@teksavvy.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: E > ...or did you think Sarbanes/Oxley was inspired by a few "egregious  > exceptions"?  E It was a political over-reaction to a couple of corporate abuses that F made the news. Had Enron not made the news, politicians would not have conjured up that law.   E Th SEC already had much power to ensure there weren't abuses. But did 2 they have resources to investigate ? big question.  C This is one reason Martha Stewart was jailed. they wanted to set an  example of 0 tolerance.   H Many in Wall Street felt they were above the law. Now, that has changed, at least for now.    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Sep 2005 12:47:21 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. C Message-ID: <1127677641.794291.238970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Dave Froble wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote:  > F > > So, by that logic, all the increased security measures we see as aE > > result of 9/11 are unneeded because that event was a case of "the & > > exception doesn't prove the rule". > >  > > Yes? No? > >  > B > 'All' the 'security measures' are a kneejerk reflexive action byL > politicians who want to be see as 'doing something'.  And what did we get? > 2 > Curtailing of freedom on an unprecedented scale. >  > National identity 'papers'.  > G > Fucking cowards who will choose security over freedom.  A slap in the G > face to all those in the past that valued freedom enough to fight and B > die for it.  All so the cowards could squander their sacrifices. > H > It's been quoted many times, but the quantity in no way diminishes theJ > validity of Ben Franklin's statement, "those who would sacriface freedom  > for security deserve neither".     That's not quite right. From. <http://news.com.com/2010-1028-5150325.html> :  F Ben Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential liberty forF temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Since the eventsD of Sept. 11 Americans have squandered an enormous amount of liberty,6 and we didn't even get any temporary safety in return.  = Those extra qualifiers "essential" and "temporary" make a big ( difference to this oft-misquoted saying.   [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:16:07 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. , Message-ID: <4337138A.5A187BA4@teksavvy.com>  
 AEF wrote:H > Ben Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential liberty forH > temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Since the eventsF > of Sept. 11 Americans have squandered an enormous amount of liberty,8 > and we didn't even get any temporary safety in return.  G In 1970, some separatist terrosists kidnapped 2 people in Montral. The D federal governmnent (Liberal party) over-reacted and enacted the warF measures act and brought in the military in montreal to protect us andD try to find the kidnapped victims. Thus suspended due legal process.@ They illegally got hold of the list of members of the separatistF political party and arrested many of the people merely on te suspicion? that they were associated with terrorists. War Measures Act was B temporary and was stopped when the hostage crisis ended (one dead, another freed).     F The Liberal party, to this day, is "black listed" in Qubec because ofF the 1970 events, mostly because the ministers who were involved in theG initial decision ended up being succesively  leaders of the party (2 of % which being elected prime ministers).   F Because both democrats and republicans supported the big mistakes madeH since 2001, it would be the perfect opportunity now for a 3 candidate toH step in. Once americans wake up to the horrors of the Bush regime,m theyH may never want to vote democrat or republican for a long time unless theH parties proceed to a big purge and rejuvenation. Keeping the same people in would be a big mistake.  F No current politician is truly able to criticise the bush regime since" they all voted for those measured.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:22:27 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. + Message-ID: <43372323.BF67B9E1@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote: G > > ...or did you think Sarbanes/Oxley was inspired by a few "egregious  > > exceptions"? > G > It was a political over-reaction to a couple of corporate abuses that H > made the news. Had Enron not made the news, politicians would not have > conjured up that law.  > G > Th SEC already had much power to ensure there weren't abuses. But did 4 > they have resources to investigate ? big question. > E > This is one reason Martha Stewart was jailed. they wanted to set an  > example of 0 tolerance.   G Ooohhh, Careful there! Martha Stweart was convicted of perjury, not any  securities-related wrongdoing.  J > Many in Wall Street felt they were above the law. Now, that has changed, > at least for now.   9 Well, yes and no. Witness: the current petroleum debacle.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:26:11 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. + Message-ID: <43372403.10CB8043@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > F > > So, by that logic, all the increased security measures we see as aE > > result of 9/11 are unneeded because that event was a case of "the & > > exception doesn't prove the rule". > >  > > Yes? No? > >  > B > 'All' the 'security measures' are a kneejerk reflexive action byL > politicians who want to be see as 'doing something'.  And what did we get? > 2 > Curtailing of freedom on an unprecedented scale. >  > National identity 'papers'.  > 9 > Fucking cowards who will choose security over freedom.    G Don't get me started, because if the (your expletive phrase) had simply D taken the hijackers out (no fire-arms, just "box knives") instead of@ cowering in fear, the twin towers would still be standing today.   > A slap in the G > face to all those in the past that valued freedom enough to fight and B > die for it.  All so the cowards could squander their sacrifices.  - NFS (and I don't mean "Network FileSystem"!).   H > It's been quoted many times, but the quantity in no way diminishes theJ > validity of Ben Franklin's statement, "those who would sacriface freedom  > for security deserve neither". > G > Note, I'm not against security, I'm against placing it above freedom, I > and specifically the measures that don't improve security, just make it 1 > look like some politician is "doing something".    Amen, bro...   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Sep 2005 21:50:10 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>Q Subject: Re: HP will have to give back 1.25 M EUR help that it got to createjobs. C Message-ID: <1127710210.551790.151370@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > AEF wrote:J > > Ben Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential liberty forJ > > temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Since the eventsH > > of Sept. 11 Americans have squandered an enormous amount of liberty,: > > and we didn't even get any temporary safety in return.    B There you go again with your selective quotes! I did not write theD above. I QUOTED it from cnet -- the mention of which you omitted. MyC post was primarily to show how so many people misquote Ben Franklin B (which I am REALLY tired of). I should have snipped off the second	 sentence.   E Again, those words "essential" and "temporary" often get dropped from D Ben Franklin's quote above and that makes a big change in its scope. OK?    [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 19:41:12 -0400 ' From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com> 1 Subject: Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling) , Message-ID: <2sudnd-6YaSpq6reRVn-pw@rcn.net>  K When Galaxy was thought of, the idea was that it was/is where the future of H computing needs to go. Now granted, the focus was on enterprise problemsK that require large scale computing with hefty guarantees about data safety, K security, and high throughput. There are many apps (and some of what I have K worked with lately in concept will add to them) where these characteristics  have been needed.   G However the Marvel boards have been announced (though enumbrated by the I planned termination of Alpha) and much effort has gone into moving VMS to N IA64, which certainly is not the Evident Next Big Thing In Computing (at least  not yet, if it ever becomes so).  I I wonder if Galaxy is still seen as where future systems will need to be?   M If not there are a few things I could imagine as interesting, though probably 0 not possible and most likely good for a laugh...  R Things like deciding that the next big architecture may come from the game consoleQ space (sort of a karmic reincarnation of Amiga?) and designing a descendant, with 1 VMS ancestry and culture, for such architectures?   L If Microsoft is serious about rebuilding its internal architecture, they mayK sometime take a look at all the calls layered on top of the NT kernel which L pass null terminated buffers with nary a size and all the assumptions aroundJ everything being able to call everything else willy-nilly, and decide thatI they could just buy rights to VMS and see who'd be interested in building L not Windows, nor VMS, but a successor to both that would be driven this timeL by VMS people to get the OS right, yet provide something close enough to theM old APIs of both that recompilation would not always be needed. I'd prefer to L see HP buying Windows for this (or having it belatedly declared to have beenF HP property all along) but am not good at imagining bobcats that could swallow a rhinoceros.   L Galaxy has some scaling properties I still really like, and the VMS layeringE is such that some of what Microsoft has been speaking of looks pretty M straightforward. For example, if you wanted to put a DBMS query language into I VMS filesystems, an optional layer that sat between RMS and the XQP which M would recognize some special quoting characters in directory names as queries M rather than names could be concocted to do DBMS searches instead of directory K lookups, filling in the database with filenames and file IDs, but also with M whatever else was convenient. It looked to me some years ago like maybe a one M man year job to get it working on a single node (servable); some more time to L solve cluster problems. The clustering issues might be difficult, but such aK thing would be useful even while it ran only on one node. Point is that the S VMS design is layered cleanly enough (and is probably cleaner now than it was then) H that functional add-ins could be tried in such a way, without taxing the entire system with them.O    The way Galaxy can move processors to load is also impressive, esp. the more K extreme flavors of that design. I thought that telling people they can buy, N say, 10 processors to do the work of 15 was a weak sell given price drops, butK having a box that can put 100 processors to work on a very parallel problem K one second and move them to 30 or 40 less parallel problems the next second J is really impressive. You can buy 50% extra processors easily, but scalingS by orders of magnitude in real time, and making it unnecessary for humans to figure . out how this should be done, can be a Godsend.  >    Is the vision of the future still Galaxy? Is anyone asking?   Glenn Everhart   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:20:47 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 5 Subject: Re: Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling) , Message-ID: <43373EC5.62511BC5@teksavvy.com>   Glenn Everhart wrote:  > M > When Galaxy was thought of, the idea was that it was/is where the future of  > computing needs to go.  G In terms of VMS, wasn't Galaxy a way to scale systems to more CPUs than 4 a single instance of VMS could comfortably support ?    K > I wonder if Galaxy is still seen as where future systems will need to be?   H Look at the current Oracle ads on TV that extoll clustering virtues of aH who bunch of wintel servers on top of each other. Galaxy takes this thisD one step further and allows each instance to have variable CPU power- depending on needs. Windows isn't there yet.    G But just like the rest of the industry are working hard to try to catch D up with  VMS' clustering capabilities, they will eventually also get Galaxy capabilities.  H Note that Sun already sells "Galaxy", so perhaps VMS will need to rename? its "Galaxy" offering so that it doesn't interfere with the Sun G trademark. (it is more likely that Sun will sue VMS for use of "Galaxy" G than VMS rightfully claiming this trademark it has had for many years).   T > Things like deciding that the next big architecture may come from the game console > space   < Not sure there is a need to assume "next big architecture".   H The computer industry started with large vacuum tube mainframes. ShiftedD to Minis and then to Wintel. Now, the Wintels are growing up back to4 Minis and Mainframes are now not all that different.  ; Clustering and networking have greatly reduced the need for H supercomputers. Supercomputers are now a collection of clustered smaller7 machines as opposed to the Cyber, Cray etc of the past.     N > If Microsoft is serious about rebuilding its internal architecture, they mayH > sometime take a look at all the calls layered on top of the NT kernel   H Not going to happen. The installed base of software is just too big. And2 null terminated bufffers are also Linux territory.  G And consider that much of the recent software on VMS has also succombed D to null terminated buffers (C socket routines for TCPIP, much of the! TCPIP services applications etc).   Q >    The way Galaxy can move processors to load is also impressive, esp. the more " > extreme flavors of that design.   9 Very cute. But will it ever make it to that IA64 thing ?    @ >    Is the vision of the future still Galaxy? Is anyone asking?  E Nobody cares about VMS outside of this newsgroup. It is irrelevant in E the industry. The wintel and Linux camps will eventually come up with ? their Galaxy equivalents in 5-10 years, just like they invented 4 clustering 2-3 years ago. (eg: re-invent the wheel).   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:41:01 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>5 Subject: Re: Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling) + Message-ID: <43375FBD.1AC5810C@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Glenn Everhart wrote:  > > O > > When Galaxy was thought of, the idea was that it was/is where the future of  > > computing needs to go. > I > In terms of VMS, wasn't Galaxy a way to scale systems to more CPUs than 6 > a single instance of VMS could comfortably support ?  B Well, actually, no. It was a way of carving up a large system into( multiple "instances" or smaller systems.  M > > I wonder if Galaxy is still seen as where future systems will need to be?  > J > Look at the current Oracle ads on TV that extoll clustering virtues of aJ > who bunch of wintel servers on top of each other. Galaxy takes this thisF > one step further and allows each instance to have variable CPU power. > depending on needs. Windows isn't there yet.  E CPUs cna be moved between instances while OpenVMS is running, but you F still cannot put 32 CPUs into a 16 CPU machine unless there is a place to put them.  I > But just like the rest of the industry are working hard to try to catch F > up with  VMS' clustering capabilities, they will eventually also get > Galaxy capabilities.   Ever heard of VMware?    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:13:57 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: Revival of Alpha?R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB70BE5F@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----> > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@comcast.net]=20" > Sent: September 25, 2005 1:12 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com   > Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha? >=20 > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > >=20  > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: BRAD > > >=20E > [mailto:bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt@atarelrim03.atl.hp.com] & > > > Sent: September 24, 2005 2:35 PM > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ > > > Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha? > > >  > > > [snip]@ > > > I had similar horrible experiences with COMPAQ during that > > > time frame, B > > > and can understand his frustration.  And yes, unfortunately, > > > this does B > > > qualify him (and others) to speak in this manner, because=20
 > the current B > > > owners of VMS have done _nothing_ to change this perception, > > > even though 8 > > > they have had years in which to make such changes. > > > C > > > You _must_ listen to your customers if you wish to serve them  > > > - rule #1 B > > > in business.  Publically laughing at them does you (and your > > > company) a > > > great disservice.  > > >  > >=20E > > Wow - this is really enlightening. After 28 years of working with F > > enterprise Customers in the field, this is something I never heard4 > > before. Thx for this great advice about rule #1. > >=20 > > :-) :-)  > >=20> > > Lets be real. Yes, there were issues with the merger in=20 > terms of Cust > > > support. However, do you think this was unique to OpenVMS? >=20D > I've said it before, and I'll say it again(, and again, and again,C > and... until SOMEone hears it, LISTENS to it, UNDERSTANDS it, and ? > RESPONDS to it in a positive way): How many wrongs does it=20  > take to make
 > a right? >=20  , How do you expect anyone to respond to that?    C > I forget where I heard this, but it did stick in my head for some < > reason: "Don't the the fact that they're doing it wrong=20 > prevent you from > doing it right!" >=20
 > > [snip]D > > Wrt to the competition, I would just love to hear a Dell supportF > > resource's response to "Hi, I have a PC386 100Mhz with 32MB memory@ > > running Windows NT3.51 and I would like to log a call for=20
 > support..".  >=20A > If the customer has a support contract, why should that pose=20  > a problem? >=20  C My point was that it is highly unlikely that you could even *get* a H contract from Dell for a piece of equipment and OS so old. When the DellD person escalates the NT3.51 call to Microsoft, what do you think the Microsoft response will be?   / [Course, I am always willing to be corrected..]     D > Do *YOU* pay for services you cannot reasonably expect to receive? >=20   You missed the point.=20   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 18:56:18 -0400 * From: "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?4 Message-ID: <acGZe.31$ST1.26@bignews4.bellsouth.net>  - of course - door to door - thats bus as usual    dt0 "Doc." <Doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote in message 1 news:Xns96DBF2829C061DCovmsrox@212.100.160.126... / > "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in 2 > news:kObZe.2653$0c3.1138@bignews5.bellsouth.net: > B >> I couldn't say new customers, even though when we sell licensed/ >> machines most of them are now OpenVMS boxes.  >>F >> I actually thought we did more Tru64 boxen but after looking at theH >> amount we have apid in OpenVMS license purchases, the costs speak for >> them selves >>H >> Probably, of the 100+ systems we shipped last month, 60 were OpenVMS,) >> and 30 of those were licensed systems. 9 >> The others were OpenVMS Hobbyists and spares companies  > E > Glad to hear you're doing good business, although I'd like to see a + > higher professional/hobbyist ratio there.  > E > I'll be looking for a newer Alpha machine sometime, but I know what H > Belgian customs can be like.  Do Island deal with all that nonsense soJ > that I can just pay a bill and get a box delivered to my door?  I'd likeG > to give you the business, particularly considering your very generous  > donation to Deathrow.  > H > Oh, and a challenge. ;)  Can you get a Thai LK keyboard for PCs?  HP'sD > website makes me sick looking for anything and the other option isG > waiting until I'm next in the country and trying to find a HP dealer.  >  >  > Doc.     ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 18:59:13 -0400 * From: "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?4 Message-ID: <bcGZe.32$ST1.22@bignews4.bellsouth.net>  $ yes but I am still married !!!!!!!!!   ;0)    dt      @ "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message % news:4336DA6C.E1CDAAE3@comcast.net...  > "Main, Kerry" wrote: >> >> > -----Original Message-----  >> > From: BRAD H >> > [mailto:bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt@atarelrim03.atl.hp.com]% >> > Sent: September 24, 2005 2:35 PM  >> > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com# >> > Subject: Re: Revival of Alpha?  >> > >> > [snip] ? >> > I had similar horrible experiences with COMPAQ during that  >> > time frame,A >> > and can understand his frustration.  And yes, unfortunately,  >> > this doesJ >> > qualify him (and others) to speak in this manner, because the currentA >> > owners of VMS have done _nothing_ to change this perception,  >> > even though7 >> > they have had years in which to make such changes.  >> >B >> > You _must_ listen to your customers if you wish to serve them >> > - rule #1A >> > in business.  Publically laughing at them does you (and your  >> > company) a  >> > great disservice. >> > >>D >> Wow - this is really enlightening. After 28 years of working withE >> enterprise Customers in the field, this is something I never heard 3 >> before. Thx for this great advice about rule #1.  >>
 >> :-) :-) >>H >> Lets be real. Yes, there were issues with the merger in terms of Cust= >> support. However, do you think this was unique to OpenVMS?  > D > I've said it before, and I'll say it again(, and again, and again,C > and... until SOMEone hears it, LISTENS to it, UNDERSTANDS it, and I > RESPONDS to it in a positive way): How many wrongs does it take to make 
 > a right? > C > I forget where I heard this, but it did stick in my head for some J > reason: "Don't the the fact that they're doing it wrong prevent you from > doing it right!" > 	 >> [snip] C >> Wrt to the competition, I would just love to hear a Dell support E >> resource's response to "Hi, I have a PC386 100Mhz with 32MB memory H >> running Windows NT3.51 and I would like to log a call for support..". > I > If the customer has a support contract, why should that pose a problem?  > D > Do *YOU* pay for services you cannot reasonably expect to receive? >  > --   > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  >  > Coming soon:) > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page     ------------------------------    Date: 25 Sep 2005 19:45:08 -0700 From: bob@jfcl.com8 Subject: VAX8350 Power Supply (H7251/H7253) problems....B Message-ID: <1127702708.807071.74640@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  C   I've got a VAX8350 (yes!) but when I power it up in standby mode, D it'll run for 30-45 seconds and then trip the breaker on the back ofA the 8350 box.  We're not talking about tripping the 30A 877 power C controller breaker; this is the breaker on the back of the 8350 box # itself, right above the power cord.   F   Measuring the AC current with a clamp on ammeter shows only about 2AD - hardly anything to get excited about.  Needless to say, there's no0 smoke, fire, or other obvious signs of distress.  ?   I can't help but notice that the breaker in question has some D suspicious extra wires on it; is this some kind of electromechanicalA trip that's intended to trip the breaker in case of ... Overtemp? & Airflow failure?  Something like that?  F   And I also notice that for the short time it is running that the fanF speed keeps changing; fast, slow, fast, slow, etc....  Is this normal?  G   Anybody got any maintenance prints for this baby?  Bitsavers has zip, 6 and all I can find on the web is an operator's manual!   Thanks, 
 Bob Armstrong    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 05:31:42 GMT % From: no spam sir <nospam@nospam.com> 1 Subject: Re: VMS consultants/experts  please read 8 Message-ID: <mn1fj1hgom9p11rc32fgjctctcskbi5a03@4ax.com>   Hi   My name is Jerrold Schiff.D  With some 25+ years of "vax vms" (programming, not on the sys admin side).   @  Off and on, I've been programming remotely on a couple of jobs.. - "got" 9 years of Ingres, 20+ years of cobol.  6 Let me know if you hear of a programming position, eh?   tutor AT cfl DOT rr DOT com    ------------------------------   Date: 25 Sep 2005 17:56:32 GMT$ From: "Doc." <Doc@openvms-rocks.com>0 Subject: Re: VMS consultants/experts please read7 Message-ID: <Xns96DCCADE0347ADCovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   I Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn@gmail.com> wrote in news:7dd80f605092508547570e050  @mail.gmail.com:  G > I'm happy to say my search ended last Friday when I accepted an offer H > from eSpeed (part of Cantor Fitzgerald)  in NYC to be a senior OpenVMS) > System Manager. I start on Oct 3rd. :-)   $ Congratulations on the new position.  , Hope it is long-term and productive for you.  K I also think Dave's idea of having a pool of VMS consultants that they can  / call on when their clients are looking is good.      Doc.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:19:26 -0400 ' From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn@gmail.com> 0 Subject: Re: VMS consultants/experts please read5 Message-ID: <7dd80f60509251119fed978f@mail.gmail.com>   @ On 25 Sep 2005 17:56:32 GMT, Doc. <Doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote:K > Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn@gmail.com> wrote in news:7dd80f605092508547570e050  > @mail.gmail.com: > I > > I'm happy to say my search ended last Friday when I accepted an offer J > > from eSpeed (part of Cantor Fitzgerald)  in NYC to be a senior OpenVMS+ > > System Manager. I start on Oct 3rd. :-)  > & > Congratulations on the new position. > . > Hope it is long-term and productive for you.  F Yes, it's a full time position (not consulting or contract). I hope to have it a long time.   Ken    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.537 ************************