1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 27 Sep 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 539       Contents:4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs$ Re: HP SWB V1.7.8 consistent crasher Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained : 2 Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas6 Re: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas6 Re: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas6 Re: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas6 Re: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas4 Re: Mixed interconnect VAX VMS 6.2 cluster challenge My DS20e Memory Upgrade  Opteron/Xeon news + OT: Military killer dolphins on the loose ! / Re: OT: Military killer dolphins on the loose ! / Re: OT: Military killer dolphins on the loose ! , Re: Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling), Re: Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling)# Re: Remote X Session to PC thru SSH # Re: Remote X Session to PC thru SSH # Re: Remote X Session to PC thru SSH  Re: SWXCR RAID Configuration" Re: Translating VAX ts to Macro-321 Re: VAX 8350/8200 - Lights on, but nobody home...  Re: Vax Needed... 
 Vax Needed... % Re: VAX Sysgen Parameter - SCSRESPCNT ' Re: VMS consultants/experts please read   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:54:11 GMT ) From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.REMOVE.ab.ca> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 9 Message-ID: <Xns96DD7915276AEfalkarcabca@198.161.157.145>   * Ron Hunter <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in$ news:e%dZe.13056$L45.1269@fe07.lga:    > zakezuke wrote: C >>> If it werent for the French, America would probably be speaking  >>> english..  >>  @ >> We can not be held accountable for keeping the integrity of aC >> language intact when a nation decides to colonize before a state # >> approved dictionary was created.  >>  H > English is quite open to taking words from other languages and making G > them a part of common usage.  It is a living, growing language, which E > is probably what makes it so pervasive.  French, on the other hand, B > (at least on the part of France) seeks to kill their language byE > making it unchanging.  That is why Latin is used for medical terms, B > and for religious terms because it is 'dead', and not subject to	 > change.   A Not quite so.  As the language of the Roman Empire, Latin became  F established as the language of the Church and of scholars long before > anyone thought of it as "dead".  Modern usage in science is a H continuation of tradition, not a concious decision to adopt an obsolete 	 language.   : > Strange that France can't see that limiting a language's > growth means it dies.  >  >        --  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca  @ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road 1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canada  http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4   http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:17:12 GMT ) From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.REMOVE.ab.ca> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 9 Message-ID: <Xns96DD7CFC52390falkarcabca@198.161.157.145>   . "Michel HERRSCHER" <mhc@herrscher.fr> wrote in/ news:4334fff4$0$5367$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr:    7 > Hello, (from France, must I say it while murmuring ?)  >  > [ Excuse my poor English ]  ' (No worse than some "native speakers".)  > E > The things are that subside to company are said to create jobs, but H > here up to now, the company hunts this subside and when got, say it is> > not the right place and move  elswhere to get more subsides.  J Subsidies of this sort are common everywhere where governments can afford F it and hope to get some benefit (and this includes the U.S.A.).  Just H north of where I work (in the laughably-named "Edmonton Research Park") K there is a building that was first occupied by some component of BNR (Bell  G Northern Research).  Not long after the incentives to locate there ran  E out, BNR found that the plant wasn't economical or no longer met the   strategic goals or whatever.I The next occupant was LSILogic, who assembled circuit boards there for a  H few years.  Then the incentives ran out, and "Gee, that plant is filled F with obsolete equipment, and we don't need to make that kind of board " anymore (at least not in Canada.)"F The current occupant is a company formed by former LSILogic staff.  I A suspect they depend on incentives (read: "subsidies") to survive.   L And this morning I noticed some digging across the street from that plant.  K This is surely the begining of the long-awaited Dell call center.  I would  G not suppose for a minute that Dell's reason for locating here was only  F because of the "highly educated work force" that the local Chamber of  Commerce likes to brag about.   H > The French Goverment, for the first time, says what the people think. F > I'm sorry for HP ( as I am a Vax MIS since 1978) but this may happen > to any other Inter'l Co    --  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca  @ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road 1                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canada  http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4   http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:21:58 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs ; Message-ID: <a%WZe.1271$iW5.1049@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   , "Dion" <dion@noreturn.com> wrote in message + news:faOdnS09o-nukKXeRVn-jg@giganews.com...  > C > "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> wrote in message + > news:XITZe.12$hp6.4889@news.uswest.net... G >> Actually, US emissions are lower than almost every country that has  	 >> signed K >> Kyoto.  This is because our state and local governments have passed laws E >> curbing emissions.  Most of the countries that signed Kyoto are in  > violation  >> of the treaty.  >>
 >> Mike Ober.  >> > K > Anyplace we could see some facts on this or is it just your opinion about H > the state of US envirnmental policy vs the rest of the world's policy?  = no where else are 15mpg SUV per capita as high as in the US.     ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:23:27 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs : Message-ID: <z0XZe.1277$iW5.713@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>  B "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> wrote in message ) news:XITZe.12$hp6.4889@news.uswest.net... L > Actually, US emissions are lower than almost every country that has signedJ > Kyoto.  This is because our state and local governments have passed lawsE > curbing emissions.  Most of the countries that signed Kyoto are in   > violation  > of the treaty. >  > Mike Ober.  J I can't see the US objecting to the signing of the treaty if this was the J case.  It is more likely that it is economically impossible for the US to   acheive using current policies.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:33:57 GMT - From: Don S <suterdfNoSpam@NoSpamverizon.net> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <paXZe.13035$y64.10188@trnddc06>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------0808080806030807040306009 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    ian lincoln wrote:  - >"Dion" <dion@noreturn.com> wrote in message  , >news:faOdnS09o-nukKXeRVn-jg@giganews.com... >    > C >>"Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> wrote in message + >>news:XITZe.12$hp6.4889@news.uswest.net...  >>     >>G >>>Actually, US emissions are lower than almost every country that has  	 >>>signed K >>>Kyoto.  This is because our state and local governments have passed laws E >>>curbing emissions.  Most of the countries that signed Kyoto are in 	 >>>        >>>  >>violation  >>     >> >>>of the treaty.  >>> 
 >>>Mike Ober.  >>> 	 >>>        >>> K >>Anyplace we could see some facts on this or is it just your opinion about H >>the state of US envirnmental policy vs the rest of the world's policy? >>     >> > > >no where else are 15mpg SUV per capita as high as in the US.  >    > H I just love statistics.  Name a country where the vehicle per capita is H higher than in the USA, then state the SUV per capita for that country, H then you have a statistic that means something and not just another one $ liner joke as you stated previously.                         Don S   & --------------080808080603080704030600) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   ? <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">  <html> <head>I   <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">    <title></title>  </head> ' <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">  ian lincoln wrote:<br>E <blockquote cite="mida%25WZe.1271$iW5.1049@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk" 
  type="cite">    <pre wrap="">"Dion" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dion@noreturn.com">&lt;dion@noreturn.com&gt;</a> wrote in message  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:faOdnS09o-nukKXeRVn-jg@giganews.com">news:faOdnS09o-nukKXeRVn-jg@giganews.com</a>...   </pre>   <blockquote type="cite">     <pre wrap="">"Michael D. Ober" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam">&lt;obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam&gt;</a> wrote in message| <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:XITZe.12$hp6.4889@news.uswest.net">news:XITZe.12$hp6.4889@news.uswest.net</a>...
     </pre>     <blockquote type="cite">W       <pre wrap="">Actually, US emissions are lower than almost every country that has   signedH Kyoto.  This is because our state and local governments have passed lawsB curbing emissions.  Most of the countries that signed Kyoto are in       </pre>     </blockquote>      <pre wrap="">violation
     </pre>     <blockquote type="cite">!       <pre wrap="">of the treaty.   
 Mike Ober.         </pre>     </blockquote> Z     <pre wrap="">Anyplace we could see some facts on this or is it just your opinion aboutF the state of US envirnmental policy vs the rest of the world's policy?
     </pre>   </blockquote>    <pre wrap=""><!---->= no where else are 15mpg SUV per capita as high as in the US.     </pre>
 </blockquote> L I just love statistics.&nbsp; Name a country where the vehicle per capita isG higher than in the USA, then state the SUV per capita for that country, G then you have a statistic that means something and not just another one ( liner joke as you stated previously.<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Don S<br> </body>  </html>   ( --------------080808080603080704030600--   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:57:34 -0700 * From: Arthur <no.body.lives.here@xoxy.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <21hgj15tjdmv5bqukd0063c95v9qsol7r1@4ax.com>  E Then why worry about a few thousand laid off workers from the big bad D industry?  Hey, they can all go work for their government.  Correct?   arthur ======8 On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 02:22:31 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote: > < >	A truly elegant way to say that they care more about their6 >people than some global conglomerate's business plan.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:05:22 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs = Message-ID: <7umdndD1DMnu26XeRVn-3w@metrocastcablevision.com>    Michael D. Ober wrote:7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message C > news:WsSdnXSxh6Cq3qrenZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com...  >  >>Michael Johnson, PE wrote: >> >>...  >> >>K >>>Personally, I prefer an economic system where hard work and ingenuity is E >>>rewarded and not one where mediocrity and stagnation are the norm.  >>J >>I guess that pretty much rules out the U.S. these days - but it would beI >>nice to think that such an environment survives somewhere in the world.  >> >>- bill >> >  >  > Long term - it can't.   I Learning to understand what you read might be a good start on correcting  
 your problem.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:10:42 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs , Message-ID: <433847AE.C421464F@teksavvy.com>   ian lincoln wrote:K > I can't see the US objecting to the signing of the treaty if this was the K > case.  It is more likely that it is economically impossible for the US to ! > acheive using current policies.     A No. Properly formulated Kyoto implementations will result in most C corporations actually saving money because they will be more energy H efficient. And it will result in citizens saving money because they willG be driving more fuel efficient cars and using public transit instead of  cars where possible.  F The ones that will hurt are the large industrial polluters such as oilA industry. And the ones that will hurt are the oil industry due to  reduced growth in consumption.  F Bush/Cheney are from the oil patch, they were funded by the oil patch.6 They will never do anything to hurt the oil companies.    G Note that with CO2 credits trading system, many companies actually make D money from Kyoto. A company that moves to meet or exceed its targetsF right away can then sell its CO2 credits to companies who have not met their targets.  G More importantly, and this is where the shortsigtedness of the USA will > really hurt it. By refusing Kyoto, the USA will fall behind inG environmentally friendly products. Already, when you look at hybrid and D small cars, the americans are not tooled to produce this and it will? take a few years to ramp up production. Meanwhile, japanese and ? europeans will be selling many more cars in the USA, and US car  manufacturers will hurt badly.    G Consider how important the car industry is to the USA economy. Not just D the car plants, but steel plants, electronics, glass, tires, all the@ various car parts plants, car dealerships, and of course, petrolD stations and car repair shops all over the USA.  Heck, many airports7 rely on revenus from their car parking lots to survive.   ; If you hurt the USA car industry, you hurt the USA economy.   D Bush's policies have delayed this "hurting", and instead of having aE gradual evolution into evvironmentally friendly economy, the USA will C eventually be forced to take radical actions and those will be in a  crisis mode.  B Katrina and Rita may not have been caused by "global warming", but5 global warming will generate more and more Katrinas.    @ And consider that Greenland alone has the potential to raise theG planet's water levels by 6 metres. (18 feet). New Orleans will need far G higher levees. Manhattan will need levees, as will most coastal cities. H Greenland IS MELTING RIGHT NOW. It isn't a question of whether or not it) will happen, but how fast it will happen.   F Also consider that with more water in the oceans, it will generate far
 more weather.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:17:08 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs G Message-ID: <r8ydnTNlOoeo1KXenZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>    Michael D. Ober wrote:L > Actually, US emissions are lower than almost every country that has signed > Kyoto.  E I think you'd either better back this up with a credible citation or  F admit that you're blowing smoke out of your ass (common behavior with E those with their heads stuck in the sand, it seems:  they'll believe  H anything they read or even think they may have read if it helps support H their fantasies).  With less than 5% of the world's population the U.S. I accounts for about 1/4 of the world's energy consumption, and most of it  G comes from fossil fuels.  Other countries with lower populations would  C have to produce greenhouse gases at truly prodigious rates to come  H anywhere near to our own, and would have to work pretty hard at it even F to approach our per-capita output - and the few countries with larger H populations lack the wealth to consume enough energy to compete in that  area.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:29:49 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs G Message-ID: <-LednbGxM5mw0aXenZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>   - David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:  > Bill >  > I am English - not American   I Thank God for small favors:  we have far too many jingoistic ignoramuses   like you as it is.  J > But I have several members of Family in UK and in the US by marriage who" > died fighting Germany in France.  = As I already observed, the American GIs in that lot died not  G 'protecting' France (they were sent *long* after France had been taken  G and not as a result of that occupation but rather as a result of Japan  F bombing Pearl Harbor and then Germany declaring war on us) but during F the general effort to prevent Germany and its allies from taking over I the *rest* of the world (and/or to prevent the Russians from doing so if  E we didn't help take some of it back ourselves:  the Russians were of  4 course well on the way back West long before D-Day).   > Enough said.  9 Apparently not, since you're still laboring under severe   misapprehensions about history.   >   Granted Japan was a decider but remember those Liberty ships- > carrying all kinds of equipment to Britain.   C No "GI's lives were taken protecting France" on those ships either.    > Or did I just imagine that?   H No, you just imagined that it somehow supported your previous drivel in 
 this area.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:36:19 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs = Message-ID: <suedndbRQ_0u0KXeRVn-hw@metrocastcablevision.com>    Don S wrote:   ...   K > Free country does not allow you to falsely accuse or to yell "fire" in a   > crowed theater.   & Unless perhaps to get the crows out...  !    There is a thing called liable   G The great thing about spell-checkers is that they can't turn gibberish  E into substance - they can only make sure that the gibberish contains  
 actual words.      where you say bad thingsE > that are not true and you have to pay for that, money or otherwise.   F Perhaps you could benefit from some legal advice regarding freedom of C expression regarding criticizing political figures as well as from   courses in typing and logic.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:43:20 -0400 ? From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <david@hpaq.net> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 0 Message-ID: <11jgjnpi97rai4f@corp.supernews.com>  I Whether that was secondary or not is irrelevant - the point is they (USA) D did, as did UK, Canada Australia,, have a direct effect in that they defended and liberated France.  L France, (to which I have travelled over 100 times in my life and was unluckyJ enough to spend a summer there with a family on the outskirts of Paris) is% still hostile and hateful of America. I They laugh at Americans, consider them massively inferior, uneducated and  common. G They cling (and remember I am talking in general) to their heritage and 3 laugh at the USA for not having any (in their eyes)   H I am not against the people of France, I am against their attitutude, an2 almost xenophobic attitude, towards everyone else.J They would never accept, with the exception of a few of France's realists,G that WE (being everyone else to the West and South of France" saved the " country from the German onslaught.  I And when it comes to historical education, we (in England) spend years of I being instructed in 1914 to 1945 history; not by choice but by nationwide  syllabus requirements   K END OF CONVERSATION - Not listening any more.. done, finished, that's all I  have to say about that.        --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html   5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message A news:-LednbGxM5mw0aXenZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com... / > David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:  > > Bill > >  > > I am English - not American  > J > Thank God for small favors:  we have far too many jingoistic ignoramuses > like you as it is. > L > > But I have several members of Family in UK and in the US by marriage who$ > > died fighting Germany in France. > > > As I already observed, the American GIs in that lot died notH > 'protecting' France (they were sent *long* after France had been takenH > and not as a result of that occupation but rather as a result of JapanG > bombing Pearl Harbor and then Germany declaring war on us) but during G > the general effort to prevent Germany and its allies from taking over J > the *rest* of the world (and/or to prevent the Russians from doing so ifF > we didn't help take some of it back ourselves:  the Russians were of6 > course well on the way back West long before D-Day). >  > > Enough said. > : > Apparently not, since you're still laboring under severe! > misapprehensions about history.  > @ >   Granted Japan was a decider but remember those Liberty ships/ > > carrying all kinds of equipment to Britain.  > E > No "GI's lives were taken protecting France" on those ships either.  >  > > Or did I just imagine that?  > I > No, you just imagined that it somehow supported your previous drivel in  > this area. >  > - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:51:25 GMT - From: Don S <suterdfNoSpam@NoSpamverizon.net> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs * Message-ID: <1jYZe.4300$WT3.2350@trnddc03>   Bill Todd wrote:   > Don S wrote: >  > ...  > G >> Free country does not allow you to falsely accuse or to yell "fire"   >> in a crowed theater.  >  > ( > Unless perhaps to get the crows out... > " >   There is a thing called liable > I > The great thing about spell-checkers is that they can't turn gibberish  G > into substance - they can only make sure that the gibberish contains   > actual words.  >  >  where you say bad things  > F >> that are not true and you have to pay for that, money or otherwise. >  > H > Perhaps you could benefit from some legal advice regarding freedom of E > expression regarding criticizing political figures as well as from   > courses in typing and logic. >  > - bill  H So your saying that you are too dumb to get the meaning of my post.  So D I misspelled crowd, of course you have never made a mistake in your G life, right.  I am no lawyer but if you make a statment that is an out  E right lie you can be held lialble even if the person lied about is a   public figure.                           Don S                     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:44:48 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs = Message-ID: <op-dnY7-uspcwKXeRVn-rQ@metrocastcablevision.com>   - David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote: K > Whether that was secondary or not is irrelevant - the point is they (USA) F > did, as did UK, Canada Australia,, have a direct effect in that they
 > defended  D You still don't get it:  America *didn't lift a finger* to 'defend' E France:  they stood by, watched it fall, said "What a shame...", and  D went on about their business (a significant amount of that business 8 still being with Germany at that very time, by the way).   > and liberated France.   I As the stepping-stone to Germany, little more:  to suggest that they did  E so for France's sake is to ignore America's previous indifference to   France's fate.   > N > France, (to which I have travelled over 100 times in my life and was unluckyL > enough to spend a summer there with a family on the outskirts of Paris) is' > still hostile and hateful of America.   F Sentiments which are shared by increasing portions of the rest of the H world, one might note.  Perhaps France was merely ahead of the curve in E understanding just how absolutely global power corrupts even nations  H which may have started out with relatively benign intentions (I seem to @ remember that they had similar experiences with England in past G centuries, so that could help explain why - not that France itself was  , immune to the excesses of power, of course).  K > They laugh at Americans, consider them massively inferior, uneducated and 	 > common.   G Well, 'uneducated and common' certainly hits the mark pretty squarely.  * Inferiority is more a subjective judgment.  I > They cling (and remember I am talking in general) to their heritage and 5 > laugh at the USA for not having any (in their eyes)   C Dubya's Wild West caricature may come the closest, though it's not  3 something I myself would be inclined to brag about.    > J > I am not against the people of France, I am against their attitutude, an4 > almost xenophobic attitude, towards everyone else.  D Right.  Nothing like that could ever happen in America, which views B *all* peoples and countries of the world with great respect.  And G England had such a raft of endearing terms with which it characterized  # especially its non-white colonials.   L > They would never accept, with the exception of a few of France's realists,I > that WE (being everyone else to the West and South of France" saved the $ > country from the German onslaught.  E You didn't actually understand much of what you saw in France, then.  G The French are very realistic - they just don't much like a lot of the   reality that they see.   > K > And when it comes to historical education, we (in England) spend years of K > being instructed in 1914 to 1945 history; not by choice but by nationwide  > syllabus requirements   I Too bad that so little of it stuck:  I guess you were as ineducable then   as you appear to be today.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:29:59 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <rLZZe.528$RW.270@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  + ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C5C2E9.D5606500  Content-Type: text/plain;  	charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     >   "Don S" <suterdfNoSpam@NoSpamverizon.net> wrote in message =& news:paXZe.13035$y64.10188@trnddc06...   ian lincoln wrote:  . "Dion" <dion@noreturn.com> wrote in message=20+ news:faOdnS09o-nukKXeRVn-jg@giganews.com... C   "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> wrote in message ) news:XITZe.12$hp6.4889@news.uswest.net... J     Actually, US emissions are lower than almost every country that has=20 signedH Kyoto.  This is because our state and local governments have passed lawsB curbing emissions.  Most of the countries that signed Kyoto are in       violation      of the treaty.  
 Mike Ober.  C       Anyplace we could see some facts on this or is it just your = 
 opinion about F the state of US envirnmental policy vs the rest of the world's policy?    =20? no where else are 15mpg SUV per capita as high as in the US.=20 H   I just love statistics.  Name a country where the vehicle per capita =C is higher than in the USA, then state the SUV per capita for that = F country, then you have a statistic that means something and not just =0 another one liner joke as you stated previously.  H   If the vehicle per capita is higher than anyone else in the world in =H the first place is not good.  The fact that so many of them are SUV is =J disgraceful.  Especially when you consider how few of those vehicles end = up on dirt roads.                            + ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C5C2E9.D5606500  Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="iso-8859-1" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE> ! <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type = ) content=3Dtext/html;charset=3DISO-8859-1> 9 <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2722" name=3DGENERATOR>  <STYLE></STYLE>  </HEAD> ' <BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff> 4 <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20C style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = 3 BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">    <DIV>"Don S" &lt;<A=20   = J href=3D"mailto:suterdfNoSpam@NoSpamverizon.net">suterdfNoSpam@NoSpamveriz= on.net</A>&gt;=20    wrote in message <A=20   = J href=3D"news:paXZe.13035$y64.10188@trnddc06">news:paXZe.13035$y64.10188@t= rnddc06</A>...</DIV>ian=20   lincoln wrote:<BR>J   <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmida%25WZe.1271$iW5.1049@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk=20H   type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">"Dion" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =J href=3D"mailto:dion@noreturn.com">&lt;dion@noreturn.com&gt;</A> wrote in =
 message=20" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =J href=3D"news:faOdnS09o-nukKXeRVn-jg@giganews.com">news:faOdnS09o-nukKXeRV= n-jg@giganews.com</A>...   </PRE>C     <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">"Michael D. Ober" <A =  class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E = J href=3D"mailto:obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam">&lt;obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.no= spam&gt;</A> wrote in message " <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =J href=3D"news:XITZe.12$hp6.4889@news.uswest.net">news:XITZe.12$hp6.4889@ne= ws.uswest.net</A>...
     </PRE>G       <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Actually, US emissions = / are lower than almost every country that has=20  signedH Kyoto.  This is because our state and local governments have passed lawsB curbing emissions.  Most of the countries that signed Kyoto are in1       </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">violation 
     </PRE>=       <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">of the treaty.   
 Mike Ober.  J       </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">Anyplace we could see some facts =( on this or is it just your opinion aboutF the state of US envirnmental policy vs the rest of the world's policy?-     </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!----> ? no where else are 15mpg SUV per capita as high as in the US.=20    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE> G   <DIV>I just love statistics.&nbsp; Name a country where the vehicle = 
 per capita=20 E   is higher than in the USA, then state the SUV per capita for that =  country,=20 G   then you have a statistic that means something and not just another =  one liner=20&   joke as you stated previously.</DIV>   <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> H   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If the vehicle per capita is higher = than anyone=20I   else in the&nbsp;world in the first place is not good.&nbsp; The fact = 
 that so=20G   many of them are SUV&nbsp;is disgraceful.&nbsp; Especially when you =  consider=20 2   how&nbsp;few of those vehicles end up on dirt=20   = J roads.</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=J bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb= sp;&nbsp;=20#   </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   - ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C5C2E9.D5606500--    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:33:13 GMT % From: "ian lincoln" <jessops@sux.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 8 Message-ID: <tOZZe.533$RW.298@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>  6 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message A news:r8ydnTNlOoeo1KXenZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com...  > Michael D. Ober wrote:G >> Actually, US emissions are lower than almost every country that has  	 >> signed 	 >> Kyoto.  > M > I think you'd either better back this up with a credible citation or admit  M > that you're blowing smoke out of your ass (common behavior with those with  J > their heads stuck in the sand, it seems:  they'll believe anything they B > read or even think they may have read if it helps support their M > fantasies).  With less than 5% of the world's population the U.S. accounts  M > for about 1/4 of the world's energy consumption, and most of it comes from  F > fossil fuels.  Other countries with lower populations would have to K > produce greenhouse gases at truly prodigious rates to come anywhere near  L > to our own, and would have to work pretty hard at it even to approach our M > per-capita output - and the few countries with larger populations lack the  : > wealth to consume enough energy to compete in that area. >  > - bill  J Smog is still a a major problem in US cities.  But as fuel prices are the J lowest in the western world why should the average american give a flying  fuck?    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:30:48 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 0 Message-ID: <11jh4bfp2c4ckfd@corp.supernews.com>   Bill Todd wrote:/ > David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:  >  >> Bill  >> >> I am English - not American >  > K > Thank God for small favors:  we have far too many jingoistic ignoramuses   > like you as it is. > K >> But I have several members of Family in UK and in the US by marriage who # >> died fighting Germany in France.  >  > ? > As I already observed, the American GIs in that lot died not  I > 'protecting' France (they were sent *long* after France had been taken  I > and not as a result of that occupation but rather as a result of Japan  H > bombing Pearl Harbor and then Germany declaring war on us) but during H > the general effort to prevent Germany and its allies from taking over K > the *rest* of the world (and/or to prevent the Russians from doing so if  G > we didn't help take some of it back ourselves:  the Russians were of  6 > course well on the way back West long before D-Day). >  >> Enough said.  >  > ; > Apparently not, since you're still laboring under severe  ! > misapprehensions about history.  > ? >  Granted Japan was a decider but remember those Liberty ships  > . >> carrying all kinds of equipment to Britain. >  > E > No "GI's lives were taken protecting France" on those ships either.   F Uh, ... Bill, ... remember how you accuse people of not understanding  what they read?   F Well, look above, and I think that David didn't claim GL's lives were J taken protecting France, it's more like "died fighting Germany in France".  G And if one wanted to take it further, US soldiers wouldn't have had to  E fight Germany in France if the French had kept them out in the first   place.  :-)   H Can we stop this stupid thread now?  It's all this "us" and "them" that / causes most of the problems in the first place.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:21:05 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs 0 Message-ID: <11jh3p8cu07hs4f@corp.supernews.com>   ian lincoln wrote:D > "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> wrote in message + > news:XITZe.12$hp6.4889@news.uswest.net...  > L >>Actually, US emissions are lower than almost every country that has signedJ >>Kyoto.  This is because our state and local governments have passed lawsE >>curbing emissions.  Most of the countries that signed Kyoto are in   >>violation  >>of the treaty. >> >>Mike Ober. >  > L > I can't see the US objecting to the signing of the treaty if this was the L > case.  It is more likely that it is economically impossible for the US to " > acheive using current policies.  >  >   G Actually, the problem is that China and India would not be part of the  G treaty.  If the environment is to be cleaned up, then it's everybody's  F job.  However, if the USA is to spend big bucks to reduce emmissions, G said big bucks will be reflected in the price of goods produced, which  H will have to compete in the marketplace with cheap goods from China and F India, who will be filling the environment with shit since they don't F have to participate, and the environment doesn't get cleaned up, then G maybe 'fuck-off' is an appropriate response.  Hey, if I want to cut my  G throat, I'll choose where and how, you don't have to apply for the job.   F Now, you get everyone to work on protecting the environment, EQUALLY,  and then we'll talk.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:38:00 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <Fv0_e.10492$eH2.2695@fe02.lga>    JF Mezei wrote: C > No. Properly formulated Kyoto implementations will result in most E > corporations actually saving money because they will be more energy  > efficient.  C If that were true, then we'd be seeing most corporations in the US  J voluntarily enforcing their own version of Kyoto as a cost-saving measure.   Has that happened?  F Just curious: do you think about the claims you make before you press  the ENTER key to post them?    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:40:14 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <Kx0_e.10494$eH2.2945@fe02.lga>    mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote: 2 > France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs  G Sorry to interrupt the name calling insult fest underway, but is there  H any more news on this?  Were the Mayor or PM able to save any jobs? Has  HP decided to return the $?    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:28:00 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs = Message-ID: <sMadnZQphJ69PaXeRVn-2g@metrocastcablevision.com>    Dave Froble wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: > 0 >> David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote: >> >>> Bill >>>  >>> I am English - not American  >> >> >>@ >> Thank God for small favors:  we have far too many jingoistic ! >> ignoramuses like you as it is.  >>L >>> But I have several members of Family in UK and in the US by marriage who$ >>> died fighting Germany in France. >> >> >>@ >> As I already observed, the American GIs in that lot died not J >> 'protecting' France (they were sent *long* after France had been taken J >> and not as a result of that occupation but rather as a result of Japan I >> bombing Pearl Harbor and then Germany declaring war on us) but during  I >> the general effort to prevent Germany and its allies from taking over  I >> the *rest* of the world (and/or to prevent the Russians from doing so  H >> if we didn't help take some of it back ourselves:  the Russians were : >> of course well on the way back West long before D-Day). >> >>> Enough said. >> >> >>< >> Apparently not, since you're still laboring under severe " >> misapprehensions about history. >>@ >>  Granted Japan was a decider but remember those Liberty ships >>/ >>> carrying all kinds of equipment to Britain.  >> >> >>F >> No "GI's lives were taken protecting France" on those ships either. >  > H > Uh, ... Bill, ... remember how you accuse people of not understanding  > what they read?   < Indeed - and you appear to suffer from that problem as well.   > H > Well, look above, and I think that David didn't claim GL's lives were L > taken protecting France, it's more like "died fighting Germany in France".  I You think wrong:  my quote was a cut-and-paste of his own words from the  C original post to which I first responded - a response which he has  B appeared to be attempting to refute since then.  Since he made no < retraction of those words but appeared to be continuing his E misrepresentation using only slightly modified phrasing I took their  F meaning in the same sense as the original, but was careful to use the I original phrasing to make it clear just how wrong he had been (since the  C later somewhat watered-down words appeared quite possibly to be an  @ attempt to weasel out of that predicament without admitting its  fundamental error).    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:18:58 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <4338AC12.B8E6F181@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > [snip]K > > Second, without moving into an even smaller home, probably adding 30 or K > > 40 miles to your commute to the train station (and a 40 mile train ride  > > thereafter)  > E > No, the point is to move into a smaller home, buy smaller cars etc.    Notice what I said above:   K > > Second, without moving into an even smaller home, probably adding 30 or K > > 40 miles to your commute to the train station (and a 40 mile train ride  > > thereafter)    Is any part of that ambiguous?   >  If D > your competition lives that way, then continuing to live on higher0 > salaries can't make your employer competitive. >  > > What am I missing here, JF?  > @ > The concept of lowering standard of living due to competition.  C No, I'm getting that. Seem you're getting the idea that when you're ? already "bare bones", teh only choice after that is amputation.   E So: what would you like to lose first: an arm or a leg? (Either might 2 buy you that "smaller Car" you mentioned earlier.)  B > > How many do you think the average person has (per person) now? > 2 > In the USA, the average person has too many cars  G How many is that? Again, the wife and I have one apiece: she travles 20 G miles north of the house an hour after I leave. I travel 8 miles to the D train station, 40 miles and the train, and another four miles on the company shuttle bus.   Where would you like us to cut?    > and not enough public  > transportation.   C Not our fault. We need to address that which is within our power to  change.   8 > But that is another issue. Consider how much yoru costI > of living would go down if you could eliminate one or more cars because " > there was good public transport.  D Not that much. The cost of public transit is not as low as you mightG think. The money I'd pay to park downtown ($200+/month) buys my monthly F train ticket and monthly shuttle bus pass. It's a dollar a day to parkF at the station. I fill up about once every two weeks. The wife doesn't4 pay for parking at work. We fill her up once a week.  ' > Consider how much your cost of living > > woudl go down if health care costs for your family went down > significantly.  A Again, not within our power to control, nor is it germane to this H discussion, except that dropping health coverage completely would save a= good chunk every month, but would constitute rather a gamble.   J > A country's infrasctructure and services are a great part of deciding ifG > a country is competitive on world market or not.  If the USA's helath H > car costs represent 18% of GDP whilst other western nation have health@ > care at roughlt 12%, then your country is 6% less competitive. > H > If your country requires roughly 1 car used every day for each workingF > adult, then those are costs of living which are substantially higherG > than countries where a larger proportion of population can use public J > transport on a daily basis. (consider not only fuel, but insurance, cost; > of car, cost or maintenance/repair, parking at work etc).   F Brash assumption. I use public transit -AND- drive to get to it. ewvenF if the bus came out this far, my daily commute would go from two hoursH to over three. Given that I'm already on the go thirteen or more hours a! day, when do you propose I sleep?   K > > Well, yes and no. The company puts out less in taxes, but the community H > > is not financially burdened by or committed to the enterprise beyondC > > those tax breaks. The company must still make its own way - the C > > community only suffers if the venture fails and jobs evaporate.  >  > It is a subsidy. Period.  E It is *NOT* a subsidy. Period. The city pays nothing to the business, B and if the company makes no profit, nothing is "saved". Comprende?  + > A tax break is the same as the govermment 3 > giving a grant and then charging normal tax rate.   ' Not quite. Important distinction there.   I > Consider this irony: Boeing accuses Airbus of getting direct subsidies. D > The european government arrange for financing with fully repayableG > loans. Doesn't cost taxpayers any money (unless the projects flops in F > which case the government garantees the loans). Boeing gets real taxG > breaks from local, state and federal governments which cost taxpayers = > real money (lost revenus). Which is a subsidy again ???????   F Question back at you: Show me the money changing hands between the two parties?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Sep 2005 19:26:39 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>= Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs B Message-ID: <1127787999.328038.55190@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > ian lincoln wrote:M > > I can't see the US objecting to the signing of the treaty if this was the M > > case.  It is more likely that it is economically impossible for the US to # > > acheive using current policies.  >  > C > No. Properly formulated Kyoto implementations will result in most E > corporations actually saving money because they will be more energy J > efficient. And it will result in citizens saving money because they willI > be driving more fuel efficient cars and using public transit instead of  > cars where possible.  B Interesting. How do you know this? How do you know the cost of theA energy saved will exceed the cost of increasing energy efficiency 3 (assuming you somehow meet the Kyoto restrictions).    [...]   I > Note that with CO2 credits trading system, many companies actually make F > money from Kyoto. A company that moves to meet or exceed its targetsH > right away can then sell its CO2 credits to companies who have not met > their targets.  C Re this credit system: I don't know why no one ever suggests simply @ putting a tax on CO2 emissions. If you don't achieve the desired? reductions of CO2, you raise the tax. This way, according to an @ economics class I took long ago, this is much better than strictF limits. Suppose it costs a little to get emissions down to a level of,C say, 2 for a particular plant. But the mandated limit is 1.9. If it G costs thousands of dollars to get it down to 2, but billions of dollars G to get it to 1.9, then 2 is the better choice. By taxing the pollutant, D each company optimizes in this manner, minimizing its costs based onF both the cost of reducing emmisions vs. the cost of the tax. If, afterG a suitable period, say, several months, the result is not satisfactory, ; then you can change the tax rate. This way you get the best B "operational efficiencies" (for lack of a better term, suggestionsG welcome!) without playing the shell game allowing spotty results (which < is more like strict limits, though more "global" in nature).  I > More importantly, and this is where the shortsigtedness of the USA will @ > really hurt it. By refusing Kyoto, the USA will fall behind inI > environmentally friendly products. Already, when you look at hybrid and F > small cars, the americans are not tooled to produce this and it willA > take a few years to ramp up production. Meanwhile, japanese and A > europeans will be selling many more cars in the USA, and US car   > manufacturers will hurt badly.  G Oddly, GM was given a lot of govt money to produce a hybrid, but it was D the Japanese companies who weren't given money who came up with them# first (IIRC, corrections welcome).     [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:56:43 +0000 - From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> - Subject: Re: HP SWB V1.7.8 consistent crasher * Message-ID: <43387CAB.3000102@bigpond.com>  ( jordan@ccs4vms.com was overheard to say: > Dave, I >      Last time I had to d/l the kit on another system and FTP it to the H > Alpha too.  This time I did that only because it was easier so I don'tD > know if a d/l using CSWB on the Alpha would have been problematic.   Rich,   @ I normally don't have problems downloading patches and the like. Only in this instance. > H >      Junkmail broke on mine too when 1.7-11 was installed, same way asG > it broke when Mozilla 1.7 was released.  Have you had a chance to try I > the file deletions, like last time?  You are the one who posted that in I > response to my query back then.  I haven't had time to try it on my PWS  > yet.  = Yes, I tried all of that (a lot of times) but had no success. A In fact this version seems to have numerous problems (or maybe it A is just me).  When I tried to reply to this message a few minutes A ago I got an empty composer window, no quoted message, no sig and @ no addresses in the top pane.  I exited and restarted and now it is working fine.? The only thing I haven't tried is a reboot (in case it involves 2 some installed images that aren't being replaced). > H >      Last time, I tried it numerous times, and gave up, but then afterE > a few more CSWB startups, the spam marking started to work again; I G > never did determine why it suddenly started working, or why it hadn't  > the first few times. >  > Rich  A Another mail problem -- I received some new mail and attempted to ? read one of the messages and was met with a popup window saying > that the message was of type RFC-822 and that SWB did not know how to handle this etc... 4 This one also went away after a few restarts of SWB.  B I also had a problem where one particular web site stopped working> for no apparent reason.  I would get a message about having to> install Personal Security Manager in order to access the site.@ This site worked when 1.7-11 was installed and then broke, it is now working again.  A I use 1.7-11 at work and at home.  The difference is that at work C I am running VMS 7.3-2 and at home I am at 8.2.  I do have the junk B mail problem at work as well as home but don't seem to have any of the other problems.    Regards, Dave.  --  D David B Sneddon (dbs)  VMS Systems Programmer  dbsneddon@bigpond.comD Sneddo's quick guide ...     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/D DBS freeware     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Sep 2005 11:13:57 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :C Message-ID: <1127758437.713292.181470@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:  0 > Once again, please do not post unadorned URLs. > K > I looked at that page and there was just some statistics, no explanation.  > H > If you think the statistics (in many different areas) prove something,H > by all means post your belief in the newsgroup, rather than making allG > of us waste our time looking at your URL because of your false belief 1 > that we will see the statistics the way you do.   * Well these statistics seems pretty clear :  R http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/insiders.asp?symb=hpq&sid=2385&siteid=mktw     04/01/2005 MARK V HURD2 Chief Executive Officer 400,000 HPQ Award of Stock <---------------------- **** *** Undefined Type ***         06/16/2005 LAWRENCE T BABBIO$ Director 94,875 HPQ Open Market Sale proceeds of $2,272,256.25    06/16/2005 LAWRENCE T BABBIO- Director 94,875 HPQ Exercise of Stock Options  at cost of $1,452,536.25   06/16/2005 LAWRENCE T BABBIO, Director 94,875 HPQ Proposed Sale (Form 144)# estimated proceeds of $2,267,512.50    06/14/2005 RICHARD TODD BRADLEY " Officer 100,000 HPQ Award of Stock *** Undefined Type ***  $ 05/19/2005 KOMISAR DUNN FAMILY TRUST+ Trustee 18,750 HPQ Proposed Sale (Form 144) ! estimated proceeds of $422,062.50    05/18/2005 MICHAEL ENGLANDER. Shareholder 8,000 HPQ Proposed Sale (Form 144)! estimated proceeds of $180,400.00    03/17/2005 ANN M LIVERMORE" Officer 150,000 HPQ Award of Stock *** Undefined Type ***   03/17/2005 SHANE V ROBISON" Officer 150,000 HPQ Award of Stock *** Undefined Type ***   03/17/2005 VYOMESH JOSHI" Officer 150,000 HPQ Award of Stock *** Undefined Type ***   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:35:50 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :, Message-ID: <43383F84.89A4B137@teksavvy.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: >  > <cross-posting removed>  > _ > In article <1127721987.088196.28820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, mark_hpq@yahoo.com writes: V > > http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/insiders.asp?symb=hpq&sid=2385&siteid=mktw > 0 > Once again, please do not post unadorned URLs. > K > I looked at that page and there was just some statistics, no explanation.     E What I saw were HP execs selling HP stock. I was surprised to see the G VMS killer , Michael Winkler in that list still listed as an executive. G Didn't he retire ?  He sold off a whole bunch of share, but still has a  huge sum of money invested.   H Amazing that the ones who do the most harm to a company are the ones whoH get paid the most, and the ones who do the most good (such as Sue) don't- have anywhere near the same type of benefits.    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Sep 2005 16:43:14 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :3 Message-ID: <a9TlJWm8t9Je@eisner.encompasserve.org>    Cross posting removed.  ^ In article <1127758437.713292.181470@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, mark_hpq@yahoo.com writes: >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > 1 >> Once again, please do not post unadorned URLs.  >>L >> I looked at that page and there was just some statistics, no explanation. >>I >> If you think the statistics (in many different areas) prove something, I >> by all means post your belief in the newsgroup, rather than making all H >> of us waste our time looking at your URL because of your false belief2 >> that we will see the statistics the way you do. > , > Well these statistics seems pretty clear : > T > http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/insiders.asp?symb=hpq&sid=2385&siteid=mktw  B Not at all to those of us who are engaged in VMS rather than stock5 market stuff.  If you have something to say, post it.    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Sep 2005 15:58:01 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :C Message-ID: <1127775481.763189.110230@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > Larry Kilgallen wrote:D > Not at all to those of us who are engaged in VMS rather than stock7 > market stuff.  If you have something to say, post it.     F You can see that (among other things) Mark Hurd got a bonus of 400,000	 HP stocks E and now he is laying off 15 % of the employees despite an increase of  the profits of HP.  = The funny thing is that HP claims to be an "ethical" company.    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Sep 2005 18:21:30 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :3 Message-ID: <lJRqHy5iwd4O@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <1127775481.763189.110230@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, mark_hpq@yahoo.com writes: >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> > Larry Kilgallen wrote: E >> Not at all to those of us who are engaged in VMS rather than stock 8 >> market stuff.  If you have something to say, post it. >  > H > You can see that (among other things) Mark Hurd got a bonus of 400,000 > HP stocks G > and now he is laying off 15 % of the employees despite an increase of  > the profits of HP.  @ If HP has employees that are surplus to what it needs to conduct? business, there should not be an external requirement to retain  them.   ? > The funny thing is that HP claims to be an "ethical" company.   % Had HP promised lifetime employment ?   8 Even the Japanese companies are not doing that any more.   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Sep 2005 10:58:27 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com; Subject: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas C Message-ID: <1127757507.390460.133070@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   G  you have any ideas or suggestions on how Hewlett-Packard can serve you E better, please e-mail them to me by using the form below. If you need E help, other information or wish to send an e-mail about particular HP 8 products and services, please go to the Contact HP page.  ? For messages regarding Agilent Technologies (Chemical Analysis, F Healthcare Solutions, Semiconductor Products, or Test and Measurement) please click here.  F Although I cannot personally respond to your message due to the volumeD of messages I receive, suggestions and observations are often passedG along to my colleagues throughout Hewlett-Packard. Your suggestions are B important to HP, and the HP team frequently takes actions based onD them. Please limit your use of this page to ideas and suggestions onA how HP can better serve you and use the Contact HP page for other . issues as they are not monitored on this page.  
 Thank you.  	 Mark Hurd 1 Chief Executive Officer and President (Designate)  Hewlett-Packard Company    use 7 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/email/hurd/index.html    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:41:38 -0400  From: Impmon <impmon@digi.mon>? Subject: Re: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas 8 Message-ID: <gjjgj1981832oqnf55nba26lgdcb7fmlcj@4ax.com>  8 On 26 Sep 2005 10:58:27 -0700, mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote:  H > you have any ideas or suggestions on how Hewlett-Packard can serve you >better, [snip]  C They can start serving us by offering ink carts for a lot less than D $30.  Right now they are $30+ each for most carts and often containsB so little ink they often only lasts 50 pages or so before they run out.  C Last time I bought a 78A, it ran dry after only like 80 photo pages F but when I filled it myself (about 20mL each color) they lasted 500 or so photo pages.  --  H When you hear the toilet flush, and hear the words "uh oh", it's already0 too late.    - by anonymous Mother in Austin, TX, To reply, replace digi.mon with phreaker.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:41:30 -0700 * From: Arthur <no.body.lives.here@xoxy.net>? Subject: Re: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas 8 Message-ID: <iotgj1hersa5pnv1fm285uf7tj81mbadr7@4ax.com>  D Next time buy a Canon and check the price of cart. before purchasingE the printer.  HP, Lex, Epson, and others use print heads in cart. and : charge for this wonderful idea by charging 2x for cart..     arthur ==3 On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:41:38 -0400, Impmon   wrote:   9 >On 26 Sep 2005 10:58:27 -0700, mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote:  > I >> you have any ideas or suggestions on how Hewlett-Packard can serve you 	 >>better,  >[snip]  > D >They can start serving us by offering ink carts for a lot less thanE >$30.  Right now they are $30+ each for most carts and often contains C >so little ink they often only lasts 50 pages or so before they run  >out.  > D >Last time I bought a 78A, it ran dry after only like 80 photo pagesG >but when I filled it myself (about 20mL each color) they lasted 500 or  >so photo pages.     ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:50:33 GMT $ From: "Peter" <nospam@earthlink.net>? Subject: Re: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas A Message-ID: <ZW_Ze.4096$oc.2305@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>   c <mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1127757507.390460.133070@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... H > you have any ideas or suggestions on how Hewlett-Packard can serve you	 > better,   " You can start by divesting Compaq.  ; And then you can rehire the 20,000 Americans who had put in ? an average of 20 years of service with your company, only to be   discarded like unwanted garbage.  = Start with those two, and then claim some kind of concern for  your customers.    ASSHOLE.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:19:55 -0400 2 From: "bitch rag" <wackyradio4332@amishonline.com>? Subject: Re: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas E Message-ID: <161f2$4338903e$d1cc7a5e$15732@snip.allthenewsgroups.com>   % <mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message = news:1127757507.390460.133070@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...   A > For messages regarding Agilent Technologies (Chemical Analysis, H > Healthcare Solutions, Semiconductor Products, or Test and Measurement) > please click here.   Don't have to.  2 Tektronix Test Equipment is far superiour and much7 easier to use than HP. HP used to make good engineering 9 and lab test equipment, but like Microsoft it has morphed < into a company that tries to be all things to all people andB you end up with dollar store fruit cocktail that tastes like crap.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:29:44 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> = Subject: Re: Mixed interconnect VAX VMS 6.2 cluster challenge 2 Message-ID: <s6XZe.13208$gc.9722@news.cpqcorp.net>   syslost wrote:B > The networking team put us on pair of Cisco 6500 routers.  TheseG > routers run our data center and connect us to all the other branches. E > (We're a really big bank).  The total data center cpu load on these  > routers is 1 to 2 percent. > H > When I booted in the remote node (just one, we're still in the testingH > phase) the routers cpu load jumped to 65 percent, then settled back to? > 30 percent cpu for the remainder of a (just one) shadow copy.   I Hopefully all the work the routers are doing with the packets (resulting  I in high CPU utilization) doesn't also result in high latency for the SCS   packets.  D > The network team said they are running dlsw to 'packatize" the scsH > traffic to send over tcp/ip.  I assume dlsw is a protocol that runs on" > the Cisco, is there another one?  @ A quick Google search shows DLSw stands for Data Link Switching I protocol. Apparently it's most often used to bridge SNA and NETBIOS over   IP networks.  I I'm no Cisco expert, but most folks simply seem to set up VLANs spanning  / the ports over which SCS traffic needs to flow.   H > We don't have a common cluster que manager and I couldn't get locktimeB > to do a remote submit.  So I don't have it's cluster wide times.  F Run LOCKTIME_3A.EXE on one node (it will become the lock master for a I set of resources), and then run LOCKTIME_1.EXE on a node at the opposite  I site. It will report average times for lock acquisition, conversion, and  @ dequeue. The time for lock conversion operations represents the  round-trip time.  G > Here is the output from rexmt.com cluster wide.  The ReX and ReC have D > been building very slowly, with 90 percent of them coming from the > boot.   A As long as the ReXmt counts grow only slowly, you're probably OK.   9 > Now that I have a working cluster, what should I watch?   G One more thing you could check for would be SCS credit waits. Do $SHOW  G CLUSTER/CONTINUOUS with ADD CIRCUIT,CONNECTIONS,CR_WAITS. If there are  F waits on the VMS$VAXcluster SYSAP, you can raise CLUSTER_CREDITS. For ; waits on the MSCP$SERVER SYSAP, you can raise MSCP_CREDITS.   E $MONITOR MSCP and $SHOW DEVICE/SERVED can tell you about served I/Os  I which had to be split due to insufficient buffer space; you can fix this  F by raising MSCP_BUFFER. (AUTOGEN with FEEDBACK will also adjust this.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:04:45 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>   Subject: My DS20e Memory Upgrade8 Message-ID: <3LWZe.746$l03.156874@news20.bellglobal.com>  H They always tell you to do the east stuff first so that's what I did; I K convinced my boss to spend less than C$1k on a 1 GB memory upgrade and now  J our AlphaServer DS20e. We average ~ 80 interactive sessions (green screen L apps via WRQ-Reflection), ~ 10 batch jobs, ~ 10 web sessions all on OpenVMS ' 7.3-1 and the now the system is FLYING!   J p.s. We only had 1 GB before but now we seem to have that much sitting in  the XFC   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:37:05 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Opteron/Xeon news( Message-ID: <opsxp0j3pwzgicya@hyrrokkin>  D http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=171200463   EE Times: Latest News , AMD raises clock spec for dual-core Opterons   	  Darrell Dunn	 	  InformationWeek  (09/26/2005 1:00 AM EDT) 	   	 G The x86 dual-core processor market will pick up speed Monday with the   I introduction of a second wave of Opteron processors from Advanced Micro   L Devices Inc. and the introduction of the first dual-core Xeon systems from   Dell.   B AMD is unveiling three new models of its dual-core Opteron line,  K increasing the upper end of its clock speed from previously available 2.4   J GHz to 2.6 GHz. AMD is adding the model 880 for up to eight-way servers,  J the model 280 for dual-processor workstations and servers, and the model  2 180 for single-processor workstations and servers.  H Sun Microsystems earlier this month announced plans to use the 2.4 GHz  K Opteron processors in its new Galaxy platform of servers. Hewlett-Packard   2 and IBM are also expected to use the new Opterons.  J "If you look at the number of platforms being brought to market from HP,  D IBM, and Sun, it is providing a lot of choice for consumers and IT  H managers to be able to more fully deploy Opteron in the different form  J factors they require for their enterprises," says Randy Allen, corporate  * VP of the server products division at AMD.  I The 880 is priced at $2,649 each in quantities of 1,000, and the 280 at   G $1,299. Both are available now. The 180 is scheduled for availability   & within 30 days, and is priced at $799.  ? Allen says AMD is continuing to experience strong adoption of   K Opteron-based servers in large business accounts. By the end of the third   C quarter, 80 of the 100 largest global companies will be utilizing   A Opteron-based servers, up from 75 in the second quarter, he says.   H In addition, support from independent software developers continues to  J increase, with 1,300 applications from 300 software developers certified  L to run on Opteron; around 1,100 applications are currently shipping, Allen   says.   H On Monday, software virtualization specialist SWsoft will announce its  K Virtuozzo 2.6.6 for Linux server virtualization now supports both Opteron   B and Intel's Extended Memory 64 Technology used in Xeon processors.  I Dell on Monday is announcing that its dual-socket PowerEdge 1850, 2800,   K 2850, and 1855 blade servers, and Dell Precision 470 and 670 workstations   K will now incorporate dual-core Intel processors. The systems are believed   K to be the first dual-core Xeon systems on the market. Dell has previously   B introduced dual-core server platforms based on Intel's Pentium D   processors.   L The new systems will be able to deliver up to 52% greater performance than  G existing single-core Xeon systems, Jeff Clarke, senior VP of the Dell   ! product group, said in statement.   I Dell is now taking orders for the servers, with general availability in   K October. Starting prices for the PowerEdge 1850, 1855, 2800, and 2850 are   E $2,448, $2,448, $2,548, and $2,748, respectively. The Precision 470   J workstation is priced starting at $2,479, and the Precision 670 at $2,779.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:06:24 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 4 Subject: OT: Military killer dolphins on the loose !, Message-ID: <43389AF3.5D969B32@teksavvy.com>  I http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1577753,00.html   @ Katrina allegedly set loose some military dolphins equipped withH weapons. They are allegedly roaming in the Gulf of mexico and trained to2 hunt down humans in wet suits. Surfers beware !!!!   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:36:28 -0400 0 From: BRAD <bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt>8 Subject: Re: OT: Military killer dolphins on the loose !0 Message-ID: <eKKdnQQhzOOCP6XeRVn-uw@comcast.com>   JF Mezei wrote: K > http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1577753,00.html  > B > Katrina allegedly set loose some military dolphins equipped withJ > weapons. They are allegedly roaming in the Gulf of mexico and trained to4 > hunt down humans in wet suits. Surfers beware !!!!  6 Ummm...the date on the article is _not_ 1-April...	:-)  A Seriously though, the article cites the usual "intelligence from  G sources" - shorthand for, "we don't have any real evidence, so we will   put forth a WA theory..."   I How accurate are articles from the Observer/Guardian Unlimited?  I'm not  C from the UK - is this the UK equivalent of the "National Inquirer"?    --  . Bradford J. Hamilton "All opinions are my own"@                       "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' with @"=                       "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job"    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:25:37 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: OT: Military killer dolphins on the loose !+ Message-ID: <4338ADA0.D190A365@comcast.net>    BRAD wrote:  >  > JF Mezei wrote: M > > http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1577753,00.html  > > D > > Katrina allegedly set loose some military dolphins equipped withL > > weapons. They are allegedly roaming in the Gulf of mexico and trained to6 > > hunt down humans in wet suits. Surfers beware !!!! > = > Ummm...the date on the article is _not_ 1-April...      :-)  > B > Seriously though, the article cites the usual "intelligence fromH > sources" - shorthand for, "we don't have any real evidence, so we will > put forth a WA theory..."  > J > How accurate are articles from the Observer/Guardian Unlimited?  I'm notE > from the UK - is this the UK equivalent of the "National Inquirer"?   E I'm sure we can shortly expect the return of the anti-JF goons, if it 8 wasn't posted by them with forged headers to start with.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:55:18 -0400 ' From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com> 5 Subject: Re: Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling) , Message-ID: <TpqdnTlaiL20OqXeRVn-uQ@rcn.net>   David J Dachtera wrote:    > JF Mezei wrote:  >  >>Glenn Everhart wrote:  >>N >>>When Galaxy was thought of, the idea was that it was/is where the future of >>>computing needs to go.  >>I >>In terms of VMS, wasn't Galaxy a way to scale systems to more CPUs than 6 >>a single instance of VMS could comfortably support ? >  > D > Well, actually, no. It was a way of carving up a large system into* > multiple "instances" or smaller systems.E In fact it was both, but the primary objective was to build something E that could reach a million transactions per second. (This was ~1995).    >  > L >>>I wonder if Galaxy is still seen as where future systems will need to be? >>J >>Look at the current Oracle ads on TV that extoll clustering virtues of aJ >>who bunch of wintel servers on top of each other. Galaxy takes this thisF >>one step further and allows each instance to have variable CPU power. >>depending on needs. Windows isn't there yet. >  > G > CPUs cna be moved between instances while OpenVMS is running, but you H > still cannot put 32 CPUs into a 16 CPU machine unless there is a place > to put them. >  > I >>But just like the rest of the industry are working hard to try to catch F >>up with  VMS' clustering capabilities, they will eventually also get >>Galaxy capabilities. >  >  > Ever heard of VMware?  > N VMware is a crutch for use where the underlying OS is not able to provide safe$ layering on itself of multiple apps.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:00:10 -0400 ' From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com> 5 Subject: Re: Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling) , Message-ID: <zNydnWSJtrXJNaXeRVn-qA@rcn.net>  C Re the VMware comments below: VMware gets used to provide isolation I and greater security where underlying OS is inadequate. Even so, there is G coupling of some file systems with VMware, and they act as though there F is network coupling also. This in the presence of a weak underlying OSJ protective mechanism, I would argue, still gives weak (though not quite asH weak as bare os) protection. Generally VMS is a different kind of animalJ because it provides better protections by itself, and does not really need9 virtual machine layers in addition to its own mechanisms.    All very nice: will HP sell it?      Main, Kerry wrote:   >>-----Original Message-----1 >>From: Glenn Everhart [mailto:Everhart@gce.com]  " >>Sent: September 25, 2005 7:41 PM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 3 >>Subject: Quo vadis Galaxy or VMS (a bit rambling)  >>@ >>When Galaxy was thought of, the idea was that it was/is where  >>the future of 7 >>computing needs to go. Now granted, the focus was on   >>enterprise problems ; >>that require large scale computing with hefty guarantees   >>about data safety,? >>security, and high throughput. There are many apps (and some   >>of what I have> >>worked with lately in concept will add to them) where these  >>characteristics  >>have been needed.  >>8 >>However the Marvel boards have been announced (though  >>enumbrated by the > >>planned termination of Alpha) and much effort has gone into  >>moving VMS to = >>IA64, which certainly is not the Evident Next Big Thing In   >>Computing (at least " >>not yet, if it ever becomes so). >>@ >>I wonder if Galaxy is still seen as where future systems will 
 >>need to be?  >>@ >>If not there are a few things I could imagine as interesting,  >>though probably 2 >>not possible and most likely good for a laugh... >>? >>Things like deciding that the next big architecture may come   >>from the game console 7 >>space (sort of a karmic reincarnation of Amiga?) and   >>designing a descendant, with3 >>VMS ancestry and culture, for such architectures?  >>8 >>If Microsoft is serious about rebuilding its internal  >>architecture, they may> >>sometime take a look at all the calls layered on top of the  >>NT kernel which < >>pass null terminated buffers with nary a size and all the  >>assumptions around= >>everything being able to call everything else willy-nilly,   >>and decide that @ >>they could just buy rights to VMS and see who'd be interested 
 >>in building > >>not Windows, nor VMS, but a successor to both that would be  >>driven this time; >>by VMS people to get the OS right, yet provide something   >>close enough to the : >>old APIs of both that recompilation would not always be  >>needed. I'd prefer to 9 >>see HP buying Windows for this (or having it belatedly   >>declared to have been H >>HP property all along) but am not good at imagining bobcats that could >>swallow a rhinoceros.  >>> >>Galaxy has some scaling properties I still really like, and  >>the VMS layeringG >>is such that some of what Microsoft has been speaking of looks pretty < >>straightforward. For example, if you wanted to put a DBMS  >>query language into > >>VMS filesystems, an optional layer that sat between RMS and  >>the XQP which ? >>would recognize some special quoting characters in directory   >>names as queries; >>rather than names could be concocted to do DBMS searches   >>instead of directory@ >>lookups, filling in the database with filenames and file IDs,  >>but also with ? >>whatever else was convenient. It looked to me some years ago   >>like maybe a one> >>man year job to get it working on a single node (servable);  >>some more time to 9 >>solve cluster problems. The clustering issues might be   >>difficult, but such a < >>thing would be useful even while it ran only on one node.  >>Point is that the @ >>VMS design is layered cleanly enough (and is probably cleaner  >>now than it was then) @ >>that functional add-ins could be tried in such a way, without  >>taxing the >>entire system with them.8 >>   The way Galaxy can move processors to load is also  >>impressive, esp. the more @ >>extreme flavors of that design. I thought that telling people  >>they can buy, @ >>say, 10 processors to do the work of 15 was a weak sell given  >>price drops, but= >>having a box that can put 100 processors to work on a very   >>parallel problem> >>one second and move them to 30 or 40 less parallel problems  >>the next second 9 >>is really impressive. You can buy 50% extra processors   >>easily, but scaling 5 >>by orders of magnitude in real time, and making it  " >>unnecessary for humans to figure0 >>out how this should be done, can be a Godsend. >>@ >>   Is the vision of the future still Galaxy? Is anyone asking? >> >>Glenn Everhart >> >  >  > Glenn, > H > While I am certainly *not* talking in any type of official capacity, IH > can provide some general insight into Galaxy and why customers are nowG > looking much more today into similar virtualization technologies than . > they were when Galaxy was first introduced.  > G > First - OpenVMS Galaxy virtualization really was ahead of its time in @ > terms of "non-mainframe" server technologies and being able to9 > dynamically share CPU's between different OS instances.  > H > However, partitioning in general is not something new as the mainframeC > folks had this capability 20 years ago. What is new is that these F > technologies are now being introduced into the non-mainframe market. >  > Why? > A > Simple - the coyote ugly problem is that the average server cpu H > utilization during peak business periods of most Cust systems today isB > 10-20% (Windows) and 15-30% (UNIX). So, while these systems wereJ > typically  justified using latest and greatest benchmarks and latest andH > greatest competitive speeds-n-feeds, the reality facing most CustomersC > today is that these systems are, for the most part, grossly under  > utilized.  > J > The culprit is the one-app, many servers (dev, QA/test, prod) model thatI > has sprung up over the last 10 years. When servers are refreshed, it is B > typically one-for-one and hence over the years the cpu speed hasH > increased dramatically, but the workloads have remained relatively theF > same. Hence, the % utilization of each workload as a % of the serverF > capability has been shrinking. This low utilization will continue toD > shrink unless a different model that the one-app, one server model" > (including refresh) is changed.  > J > This is why server consolidation, virtualization and workload managementF > are so hot with most med-large Customer environments today. Their ITJ > budgets are decreasing, their services requirements increasing and theirJ > head counts are being reduced (or at least not being increased to handle > new service requests). > B > Now, there are two primary types of virtualization - Application > Stacking and OS Stacking.  > F > 1. Application stacking is the best financial and technical solution
 > because it: I > - reduces OS instances and number of OS instances is tied to FTE counts ; > which is by far the biggest IT expense in most companies. 3 > - reduces HW requirements of many smaller servers  > - small overhead  > - improves overall utilizationJ > - with OpenVMS, HP-UX and some other UNIX's, you can dynamically migrateI > CPU's between different OS instances as the load changes. With OpenVMS, H > these CPU's can be migrated between OS instances dynamically (based on> > business rules), manually (drag-n-drop) or even time-of-day. > D > The down side to application stacking on Windows and to a bit of aI > lesser extent, many UNIX systems, is that the culture is very averse to ( > sharing resources on the same system.  > I > "What, share my application with that other dept system? No way in hell  > will that happen.."  > G > In addition, in the case of Windows and Linux, the OS's really do not A > have the technical maturity yet to natively support application  > stacking.  > I > 2. OS stacking is the next best thing, and because of the technical and H > political challenges, is the reason why it is becoming so popular with > Windows/Linux:3 > - reduces HW requirements of many smaller servers   > - improves overall utilization% > - politically "easier" to implement J > - does *not* reduce OS instances, so does not impact FTE counts and willJ > also add some additional costs in terms of server overhead and licensing > (e.g. VMware) E > - does not allow one to dynamically move CPU's between different OS  > instances  > F > So, in summary, making much better use of server resources is a veryC > high priority for most med-large Cust's today. IT shops are under H > extreme pressures to reduce costs and while OS stacking will gain someH > benefits, if the political issues of "one-app, many servers" model canB > be overcome, then even more cost reductions can be obtained withI > application stacking using virtualization (e.g.  Galaxy, vPars etc) and ; > various workload management (class scheduler) strategies.  > 	 > Regards  >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant  > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660  > Fax: 613-591-4477  > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT)  > 6 > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Sep 2005 21:47:51 -02006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER), Subject: Re: Remote X Session to PC thru SSH* Message-ID: <43386c87@news.langstoeger.at>  N In article <opsxpvvwmvzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:L >Just installed TCPIP5.4 on 7.3-1 and tried your experiment using PuTTY 0.58# >with X-Forwarding enabled, and ...  >  >ODIN> mcr decw$clock $ >X Toolkit Error: Can't Open display& >%DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204  A Could it be that you have no X11 server on the PC running or that D the X11 security is the culprit here ? What does SHOW DISPLAY tell ?2 And does your PC have a X11 server error logfile ?   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:10:22 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> , Subject: Re: Remote X Session to PC thru SSH( Message-ID: <opsxqafkjezgicya@hyrrokkin>  : On 26 Sep 2005 21:47:51 -0200, Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER   <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote:   J > In article <opsxpvvwmvzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  	 > writes: K >> Just installed TCPIP5.4 on 7.3-1 and tried your experiment using PuTTY    >> 0.58 % >> with X-Forwarding enabled, and ...  >> >> ODIN> mcr decw$clock & >> X Toolkit Error: Can't Open display( >> %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204 > C > Could it be that you have no X11 server on the PC running or that F > the X11 security is the culprit here ? What does SHOW DISPLAY tell ?4 > And does your PC have a X11 server error logfile ? >   from the 7.3-1 system   ODIN> sho display 3 %DECW-W-OPENIN, error opening DECW$DISPLAY as input - -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available    and from a 7.3-2 system    HAFNER> sho display         Device:    WSA1:  [exec]       Node:      0       Transport: LOCAL       Server:    0       Screen:    0    HAFNER>  mcr decw$clock , Xlib: connection to "WSA1" refused by server3 Xlib: Client is not authorized to connect to Server # X Toolkit Error: Can't Open display % %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204    These are both using SSH   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:02:17 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>, Subject: Re: Remote X Session to PC thru SSH+ Message-ID: <4338A829.D7149ED7@comcast.net>    Tom Linden wrote:  > : > On 26 Sep 2005 21:47:51 -0200, Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER > <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote:  > J > > In article <opsxpvvwmvzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> > > writes: K > >> Just installed TCPIP5.4 on 7.3-1 and tried your experiment using PuTTY 	 > >> 0.58 ' > >> with X-Forwarding enabled, and ...  > >> > >> ODIN> mcr decw$clock ( > >> X Toolkit Error: Can't Open display* > >> %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204 > > E > > Could it be that you have no X11 server on the PC running or that H > > the X11 security is the culprit here ? What does SHOW DISPLAY tell ?6 > > And does your PC have a X11 server error logfile ? > >  >  from the 7.3-1 system >  > ODIN> sho display 5 > %DECW-W-OPENIN, error opening DECW$DISPLAY as input / > -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available   C DECwindows has not been started, or SET DISPLAY/CREATE has not been  issued.    > and from a 7.3-2 system  >  > HAFNER> sho display  >  >      Device:    WSA1:  [exec]  >      Node:      0  >      Transport: LOCAL  >      Server:    0  >      Screen:    0  >  > HAFNER>  mcr decw$clock . > Xlib: connection to "WSA1" refused by server5 > Xlib: Client is not authorized to connect to Server % > X Toolkit Error: Can't Open display ' > %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204  >  > These are both using SSH  H Take the second Xlib: message seriously: check the permissons for access" to your display target (your PC?).   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:14:20 GMT 6 From: "Andy Bustamante" <a_c_bustamante@earthlink.net>% Subject: Re: SWXCR RAID Configuration : Message-ID: <0p_Ze.524$Y_5.213@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>  K The SWXCR config utilities are still availabible on the Alpha Firmware CDs. K See the SWXCRMGR directory.  You'll need to shutdown the Alpha and run this G from the console.  You can run directly from CD now.  These controllers G sometimes needed to be forced to rebuild a raid set.  It is possible to  configure a "hot spare" disk.    --       Andy Bustamante  Remove the ASCII 95s for e-mail     : "Shahin Yaz" <Shahinyaz@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message= news:1127730465.211378.284160@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... F > I have an Alpha 2100 with a SWXCR RAID controller, but have not beenD > able to find any documentation on how to use the config utlity. IsH > there any useful documentation / notes out there ? What is the processA > for changing a failing disk ? Is it just a matter of physically F > replacing it with a working one while the system is on-line ? and noH > other soft steps ?  Is it possible to have a spare disk installed thatH > the system will switch to automatically in the event of failure on one > of the working set ? > ) > Thanks in advance for any help on this.  > 	 > Regards  >  > Shahin >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:22:02 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) + Subject: Re: Translating VAX ts to Macro-32 4 Message-ID: <uTXZe.13217$lT7.10940@news.cpqcorp.net>  C   The root request is an object disassembler, and I am not aware of C   one of those -- VAX image disassemblers have been available for a 9   while now, with one of the classics being DISM32, IIRC.   C   The format of a VAX object is documented in the LINKER manual, so F   it would be conceivable to reverse-translate (disassemble) this into   Macro32 code.   E   Do realize that a disassembled or back-translated "source" code is  I   rather difficult to maintain -- dissassembled images originally written F   in VAX Macro32 assembler (assembler, not compiler) are not all that C   bad, but most anything else generates very ugly object code.  And D   yes, the disassembled VAX Macro32 assembler has no relevent symbol   names and no comments.  G   And I usually take a look at the other approach -- it used to be very E   expensive to re-write code, but there are industry factors that can E   make that approach somewhat more cost-effective than it used to be. F   It might still not be completely cheap, but it might not be anywhere2   near as unservicable an approach as it once was.    d In article <4337B5EB.16569.13E40AC8@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com> writes:! :> > I have tried using my VAX to G :> > link the objects into an executable that I could translate only to C :> > find that there are too many name conflicts between the object > :> > libraries and the system RTLs to build a viable shareable :> > executable.  D   What are the particular conflicts being seen?  Which symbol names?  >   You could turn off resolutions against the system libraries.  B   See the LINK qualifiers /[NO]SYSLIB and /[NO]SYSEXE, as a start.  B   You could also potentially PATCH your way out of the symbol name   collisions, too.    I :> It might be a silly idea, but haven't you considered installing an old I :> VAX-VMS version (contemporary to your objects) on that VAX then try to  :> link it there?  : = :Good idea.  Even the newest version of VEST can't translate  G :executables from VMS V7.  You need to go back a ways in versions when  
 :you link.  H   I wasn't aware of that restriction with current DECmigrate VEST -- theH   TIE-related RTLs were certainly brought forward to OpenVMS VAX V7.3 as    part of the VEST and TIE work.  5 :Contact me directly, and I can help you with this...   G   VAX emulation is a potential option, depending on what you are up to. I   CHARON-VAX is a product in this area, and SIMH and other VAX emulators  8   are also around.  (The FAQ has a few of these listed.)    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:04:40 -0400 2 From: Bob Willard <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net>: Subject: Re: VAX 8350/8200 - Lights on, but nobody home...0 Message-ID: <z-CdnSWGeZ-qpaXeRVn-jA@comcast.com>   bob@jfcl.com wrote:   I > I received a VAX8350 in "junk" condition - this machine was stripped by G > a DEC reseller for parts before I got it, so it is missing a few bits D > and pieces here and there..  Still, it's one of the smallest VAXBII > machines made, and an SMP machine at that, so it's worth some effort to  > resurrect it.  > D > I've got it to where it'll at least power up now and turn on a fewF > LEDs, but it's still pretty unresponsive.  With the upper key set toD > "STANDBY" and the lower key set to "HALT", the STANDBY (RED), HALTE > (YELLOW) and FAULT (RED) LEDs are on.  Under the top cover, the ILV H > (GREEN - what's "ILV" mean, anyway?), H7251 (RED) and H7253 (RED) LEDs	 > are on.  > F > According to the operator's manual (which is all I have) the "FAULT"E > LED only goes off after the diagnostics complete, so it's not clear 3 > whether that indicates a problem in standby mode.  > D > Taking a deep breath and switching to "ENABLE" makes the H7251 andF > H7253 LEDs go off; the RED LED on the CPU card turns on, but not theE > yellow.  The yellow LEDs on all the memory cards are ON, and on the B > front panel the STANDBY LED goes off and the ENABLE LED goes on. > B > Other than some LEDs, though, there's no sign of life.  It neverH > attempts to access the RX50, and it never says anything on the console) > terminal.  At least there's no smoke...  > I >   I'm assuming that the CFE (console front end board) should at minimum @ > wake up and do something now, even if nothing else is working. > H >   Is there any recommended place to probe the power supply voltages toH > see if that's OK?  It's not obvious, since the darned thing won't evenF > run with the cover off (the airflow sensor shuts it down).  Or is my > CFE dead?  > 6 >   Anybody got any maintenance prints for this thing? > I >   BTW, I call it an 8350/8200 because the reseller stripped all the CPU F > cards before I got it.  I managed to find a KA820 card and installedI > that, which should in theory make it an 8200.  This might cause me some B > problems down the road, but I'm assuming it's not the issue now. > 	 > Thanks,  > Bob Armstrong  >   I Bob - I have an Install Guide for the 8200/8300, in .PDF format.  I won't , email it to you, because it is huge -- 79MB.  L I will send you some pages from that IG which may help you get started; theyI are in .GIF format.  I'm guessing that you have a 12-slot 8200, since you J said that the cover must be on for the box power to stay on; anything thatI prevent air escaping from the box top will do, including clear plexiglass  or even cardboard. --   Cheers, Bob    ------------------------------   Date: 27 Sep 2005 01:06:59 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Vax Needed...+ Message-ID: <3prk9iFbqut9U1@individual.net>   C In article <1127782943.795799.150990@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,  	neox.quasar@gmail.com writes:C > Hi, i'm trying to learn VAX assembly language, but I don't have a C > system. I was wondering where perhaps I would be able to obtain a I > MicroVax or similar. Anything smaller than a washing machine is fine by # > me. I live in Australia though...  >    SIMH and any PC.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 26 Sep 2005 18:02:23 -0700 From: neox.quasar@gmail.com  Subject: Vax Needed...C Message-ID: <1127782943.795799.150990@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   A Hi, i'm trying to learn VAX assembly language, but I don't have a A system. I was wondering where perhaps I would be able to obtain a G MicroVax or similar. Anything smaller than a washing machine is fine by ! me. I live in Australia though...    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:39:22 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> . Subject: Re: VAX Sysgen Parameter - SCSRESPCNT2 Message-ID: <K7YZe.13220$qe.2049@news.cpqcorp.net>   prep@prep.synonet.com wrote:A > SHOW CUSTER/CONT somewhere... It's not in the AMDS SCS display.   H $SHOW CLUSTER/CONTINUOUS shows BDT_WAITS (Buffer Descriptor Table entry A waits) and CR_WAITS (SCS flow-control credit waits), but not RDT  F (Request Descriptor Table, or equivalently Response Descriptor Table) G waits. That count you have to look up in SDA, according to the OpenVMS   Cluster Systems manual:    SDA> READ SYS$SYSTEM:SCSDEF E %SDA-I-READSYM, reading symbol table  SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SCSDEF.STB;1 & SDA> EXAM @SCS$GL_RDT + RDT$L_QRDT_CNT 8044DF74:  00000000   "...."  A AUTOGEN with FEEDBACK looks at BDT and RDT waits and will adjust  " SCSBUFFCNT and SCSRESPCNT for you.  I Request [or Response] Descriptor Table entries are used to keep track of  I requests that are awaiting a response, so the response can be recognized  B and matched up with the request. For example, a lock request will I generate a response doing something like granting the lock or telling of  H a conflict. An MSCP Read request will generate an End Message conveying 7 the (hopefully successful) status of the I/O operation.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:06:56 -0400 - From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> 0 Subject: Re: VMS consultants/experts please read7 Message-ID: <8660a3a10509261206119a7b3d@mail.gmail.com>   L On 26 Sep 2005 08:37:37 -0700, bill@wcschmidt.com <bill@wcschmidt.com> wrot= e:D > Bill Schmidt here, I have been doing OpenVMS consulting for a long > while.H >  I do not have a resume in PDF format, but please visit my web site at2 > wcschmidt.com, or email me at bill@wcschmidt.com >  >  > Thanks >  >   B At grave risk of getting flamed-- y'all get a copy of the freeware OpenOffice suite.   = It'll import your .txt or .doc format and export it as a .pdf    WWWebb   --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.539 ************************