1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 29 Sep 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 543       Contents:" Alpha DB9 to DECserver RJ45 cable?& Re: Alpha DB9 to DECserver RJ45 cable?& Re: Alpha DB9 to DECserver RJ45 cable?& Re: Alpha DB9 to DECserver RJ45 cable?% DISCONNECT a process other than mine? ) Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine? ) Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine? ) Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine? ) Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine? 4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs4 Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs9 HP could cut fewer jobs in France than it first announced  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HSJ40 manuals  Re: Jump to console ?   Re: OpenVMS Hobby Licence Issues  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Licence Issues  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Licence Issues  Re: OpenVMS Hobby Licence Issues Re: SC008/Star Couplers. Re: SC008/Star Couplers. Re: SC008/Star Couplers. see anybody you know?  Re: see anybody you know?  Re: see anybody you know?  Re: see anybody you know?  Re: see anybody you know?  Re: see anybody you know?  Re: see anybody you know?  Re: see anybody you know?  Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s!% Re: VMS 4.6/4.7 Local Area VAXcluster 0 [Q] DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?4 Re: [Q] DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?4 Re: [Q] DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 14:28:28 -05002 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)+ Subject: Alpha DB9 to DECserver RJ45 cable? 3 Message-ID: <aSU8nBq9pUSr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   K I need to connect the console of my new DS25 to a DS700 terminal server for J remote console access. In the past I've used an H8571-J DB9 to MMJ adapterL and the BN24H cable, or the H8571-J to a BC16E cable to an H8584-AC adapter.  B Is there an appropriate adapter that will work with a standard (or? crossover) network cable? Is the H8584-AC what I'm looking for?   G I did find a bunch of DB9F to RJ45 adapters, that aren't DEC/HP and are K labeled "terminal" and "74-0495-01" but they don't seem to work either with J a straight or crossover network cable. Any one know what this part is for?   --  O   Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< E Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  ? 	Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil.    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2005 19:51:45 GMT/ From: Thierry Dussuet <thierry@dussuet.lugs.ch> / Subject: Re: Alpha DB9 to DECserver RJ45 cable? 0 Message-ID: <slrndjlt2h.160.thierry@MARS.Family>   Hello!  B On 2005-09-28, Bob Kaplow <kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars> wrote:M > I need to connect the console of my new DS25 to a DS700 terminal server for L > remote console access. In the past I've used an H8571-J DB9 to MMJ adapterN > and the BN24H cable, or the H8571-J to a BC16E cable to an H8584-AC adapter. > D > Is there an appropriate adapter that will work with a standard (orA > crossover) network cable? Is the H8584-AC what I'm looking for?    I have 2 such and they work :-)   I > I did find a bunch of DB9F to RJ45 adapters, that aren't DEC/HP and are M > labeled "terminal" and "74-0495-01" but they don't seem to work either with L > a straight or crossover network cable. Any one know what this part is for?  4 These seem to be for Cisco ports and not DECservers.   Thierry    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:27:30 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) / Subject: Re: Alpha DB9 to DECserver RJ45 cable? 4 Message-ID: <S0D_e.13394$RG1.12310@news.cpqcorp.net>  h In article <aSU8nBq9pUSr@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes:L :I need to connect the console of my new DS25 to a DS700 terminal server forK :remote console access. In the past I've used an H8571-J DB9 to MMJ adapter M :and the BN24H cable, or the H8571-J to a BC16E cable to an H8584-AC adapter.   D   I've updated the FAQ section on DECconnect for the September issue@   of the FAQ, both to clarify a few of the areas and to add the 3   adapters that are used for the Integrity servers.   G   I'd expect the H8571-J or compatible would continue to be the choice.   C :Is there an appropriate adapter that will work with a standard (or @ :crossover) network cable? Is the H8584-AC what I'm looking for?  D   All DECconnect wires are the same, AFAIK.  The necessary wiring isC   all located within the adapters at each end of the BC16E cabling.   H :I did find a bunch of DB9F to RJ45 adapters, that aren't DEC/HP and areL :labeled "terminal" and "74-0495-01" but they don't seem to work either withK :a straight or crossover network cable. Any one know what this part is for?   D   That's not a traditional DEC part number format, FWIW.  (It's not    using the 2-5-2 format.)    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:49:48 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>/ Subject: Re: Alpha DB9 to DECserver RJ45 cable? * Message-ID: <MSG_e.7272$WT3.1585@trnddc03>   Bob Kaplow wrote: M > I need to connect the console of my new DS25 to a DS700 terminal server for L > remote console access. In the past I've used an H8571-J DB9 to MMJ adapterN > and the BN24H cable, or the H8571-J to a BC16E cable to an H8584-AC adapter. > D > Is there an appropriate adapter that will work with a standard (orA > crossover) network cable? Is the H8584-AC what I'm looking for?  > I > I did find a bunch of DB9F to RJ45 adapters, that aren't DEC/HP and are M > labeled "terminal" and "74-0495-01" but they don't seem to work either with L > a straight or crossover network cable. Any one know what this part is for?  > I had a similar problem, and lots of trouble tracking down the* right adapters, so I ended up making them.  F I wanted to hook the console ports of some MSA1000's to a DS90 server. This might match your config.   F The MSA1000 has a special cable that terminates in a DB9F suitable forG plugging into a PC serial port, that also works fine with a serial port , on an ES40 (using $ Set host/dte or Kermit.)  D Unfortunately, there were 4 MSA1000's (two dual-redundant pairs) andF only one available port on the ES40 (serial console on the other one),/ but there is a DS90 with a bunch of free ports.   E The DS90 has 8-pin RJ45 jacks. They seem the same as the jacks on the 0 16-line (no modem control) version of the DS700.  A The ES40, DS90 and MSA1000's are at a remote site, so I simulated E the whole thing with a DS700, a modem with a standard PC-style 25-pin A to 9-pin cable (the 9-pin end normally intended to plug into a PC 9 serial port, and a straight-through Ethernet patch cable.   C I got some DB9M to RJ45F adapters (the kind where you plug the pins E into the holes in the 9-pin end to wire it up as desired.)  I cleaned A out the local computer store (MicroCenter) and got a big bag more C of them at a local electronics store (U-Do-It in Needham, if anyone F is local to the Boston Mass area), and they were wired and color-codedE the same, even though they were different manufacturers.  The U-Do-It F ones are Philmore Interface Adaptor RJ45, 8 cond, Female to DB-9 Male,
 no 70-084-10.    This is how I wired the pins  
 RJ45			DB9   2  Orange	->	2	Rcv data  4  Red		->	8	CTS 5  Green	->	7	RTS  6  Yellow	->	3	Tx data 7  Brown	->	4	DTR  8  White	->	6	DSR   E This leaves pin 1 (DCD) and Pin 9 (???) on the DB9 unused and the two G grounds (pin 1 Rcv gnd and pin 3 Tx gnd) on the RJ45 end and one ground  (pin 5 Gnd) on the DB9 end.   G One of the modems I was testing with wanted Rcv Gnd (1, blue) connected B to pin 5 and the other one would only work with Tx Gnd (3, black) A connected to pin 5 on the DB9.  (Both USRobotics, one a Sportster  and the other was a Courier!)   C I ended up snipping of the pin on one of the wires and soldring the E stub to the middle of the other one (shorting the two grounds), which  worked with both modems.   So:    1 Blue ----|             |----->	5	Gnd  3 Black ---|    A This plus a straight-through Ethernet patch cable, worked with an B MSA1000.  Don't know if it will help with your DS25.  You may have? to create a null-modem by swapping Tx and Rcv, RTS and CTS, and B DTR and DSR.  A DB9 breakout box would help here, but I don't haveC one.  (I did use a DB25 breakout box between the DB25 connector and  the modem to help debug mine.)   HTH    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 14:12:27 -05002 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow). Subject: DISCONNECT a process other than mine?3 Message-ID: <EVyNY+mppL9T@eisner.encompasserve.org>   I How can I force an interactive session on my system into a "disconnected"  state.    L I've got virtual terminals enabled, and when I lose say a telnet connection,F evnetually the session realizes something happened, and goes into this- state. Then I can reconnect, log in, and get:    "Password:  0     You have the following disconnected process:% Terminal   Process name    Image name ! VTA980:    MyNameHere      (none) ' Connect to above listed process [YES]:"   J ... and I'm back where I was before something nasty happened. Or I can useJ the DISCONNECT command to put my current process into this state, and thenJ reconnect from somewhere else. But how do I do it to some other process on= the system? DISCONNECT doesn't accept a PID or VTA parameter.    VMS 7.3-2 and TCPIP V5.4 ECO4    --  O   Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< E Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  ? 	Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:25:31 -0400 * From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>2 Subject: Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine?0 Message-ID: <11jlrhh8fsteuaf@corp.supernews.com>  ) I'd love to know if that can be done too.   J My reason: because after 8 hours that I`m connected via VPN, my connectionI is dropped but my telnet sessions to VMS never get disconnected. They are , just in limbo state and I have to kill them.  L I don't know what makes the virtual terminal know it's been disconnected butE in this particular case, it doesn't work. If I hit the X to close the D PowerTerm window (yes, using weendoze at home...) it does disconnect1 properly and I can reconnect from another source.   L Sadly, a Citrix session that gets "killed" by the VPN link drop, goes into aL disconnect state and I can later reconnect after I re-establish the VPN. How0 can a Windows app possibly work better than VMS?  5 This is annoying and I'd be happy to find a solution.    Thanks   --   Syltrem   H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)I "Bob Kaplow" <kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars> a crit dans le message de - news:EVyNY+mppL9T@eisner.encompasserve.org... K > How can I force an interactive session on my system into a "disconnected"  > state. > B > I've got virtual terminals enabled, and when I lose say a telnet connection, H > evnetually the session realizes something happened, and goes into this/ > state. Then I can reconnect, log in, and get:  >  > "Password:2 >     You have the following disconnected process:' > Terminal   Process name    Image name # > VTA980:    MyNameHere      (none) ) > Connect to above listed process [YES]:"  > L > ... and I'm back where I was before something nasty happened. Or I can useL > the DISCONNECT command to put my current process into this state, and thenL > reconnect from somewhere else. But how do I do it to some other process on? > the system? DISCONNECT doesn't accept a PID or VTA parameter.  >  > VMS 7.3-2 and TCPIP V5.4 ECO4  >  > --  F >   Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars
 (yet)! <<<G > Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf ? >     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org  www.nar.org  > @ > Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 14:35:38 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 2 Subject: Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine?3 Message-ID: <fvzfNv8M3M9G@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <EVyNY+mppL9T@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes:  K > How can I force an interactive session on my system into a "disconnected" 	 > state.    F By poking about in kernel mode to do what the DISCONNECT command does.  E This is a major shortcoming of built-in VMS features when it comes to H US Federal Government sites implementing NIST Special Publication 800-53! control AC-11 which says in part:   > 	"The information system also activates session lock mechanism> 	 automatically after a specified period of inactivity defined 	 by the organization."   F This control is not required for systems at the Low impact level under. FIPS 199, but is required for Medium and High.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:35:50 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) 2 Subject: Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine?3 Message-ID: <G8D_e.13395$RG1.2228@news.cpqcorp.net>   c In article <fvzfNv8M3M9G@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: i :In article <EVyNY+mppL9T@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes:  : L :> How can I force an interactive session on my system into a "disconnected"
 :> state.  : G :By poking about in kernel mode to do what the DISCONNECT command does.     B   Correct.  You basically need to connect into the terminal driverG   stack in kernel mode, and simulate the failure of the communications  C   line.  (And you need to do so without triggering a system crash.)   B   There is no documented and no supported means available here, in   other words.  D   I've heard tales of a disconnect-related hack, but I don't know ifD   it exists or (if it does) if it works.  If you are willing to hackD   around in kernel-mode and willing to risk a system crash or a dataB   corruption (or worse), do see the following as a starting point:  A     http://vmsone.com/~decuslib/vmssig/vmslt00a/vu/ioc_jacket.mar     F :This is a major shortcoming of built-in VMS features when it comes toI :US Federal Government sites implementing NIST Special Publication 800-53 " :control AC-11 which says in part: : ? :	"The information system also activates session lock mechanism ? :	 automatically after a specified period of inactivity defined  :	 by the organization." ..  C   This session-locking is not available with serial connections and D   the standard software, but is obviously available with DECwindows,C   and can also be implemented (as various sites have done) with the C   idle-session timeout mechanisms that are available within various    terminal server devices.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:05:38 GMT 7 From: John Malmberg <malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp> 2 Subject: Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine?3 Message-ID: <SsE_e.13408$DN1.7198@news.cpqcorp.net>    Bob Kaplow wrote: K > How can I force an interactive session on my system into a "disconnected" 	 > state.   > N > I've got virtual terminals enabled, and when I lose say a telnet connection,H > evnetually the session realizes something happened, and goes into this/ > state. Then I can reconnect, log in, and get:  > 
 > "Password:  2 >     You have the following disconnected process:' > Terminal   Process name    Image name # > VTA980:    MyNameHere      (none) ) > Connect to above listed process [YES]:"  > L > ... and I'm back where I was before something nasty happened. Or I can useL > the DISCONNECT command to put my current process into this state, and thenL > reconnect from somewhere else. But how do I do it to some other process on? > the system? DISCONNECT doesn't accept a PID or VTA parameter.  >  > VMS 7.3-2 and TCPIP V5.4 ECO4   I The Telnet sessions seem to notice that a connection is broken when they  H have characters send to the now non-existent connection, and are unable / to complete the sending in some timeout period.   H Causing a broadcast message to go to the hung terminal session seems to < eventually work on Encompasserve to speed the process along.  C Since I do not have any privileges on that machine, I use Phone to    generate the broadcast messages.   -John ! malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hp  Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:49:33 -0600 ' From: "Narusato" <Narusato@thuntek.net> = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs + Message-ID: <dhf0sq$icp$1@reader2.nmix.net>   / > They ought to bring those jobs back to the US   ; > They shouldn't lay anyone off in Britain, but they should ) > totally pull out of Germany and France.    I perfectly agree with that. Narusato      / "Scotius" <wolvzbro@mnsi.net> wrote in message  2 news:mnolj1h57orlgcbg5lmsvdosg79ai6g4ba@4ax.com...: > On 23 Sep 2005 11:14:31 -0700, mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote: > 2 >>France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs >>Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:26 AM ETI >>OYONNAX, France, Sept 23 (Reuters) - French Prime Minister Dominique de D >>Villepin maintained pressure on Hewlett-Packard Co. (HPQ.N: Quote,G >>Profile, Research) on Friday, calling on the U.S. computer company to / >>rethink its plan to cut 1,240 jobs in France.  > 0 > They ought to bring those jobs back to the US. > I >>The conservative government, under pressure to reduce unemployment from G >>close to 10 percent, has scheduled a meeting with the firm's European A >>head, Francesco Serafini, and referred its job-cut plans to the ! >>European Commission for review.  >>E >>Villepin said HP should reimburse any public aid it has received in 	 >>France.  >>G >>"It is important that public aid is not redirected from its purpose," H >>Villepin said during a visit to Oyonnax in eastern France, adding that< >>subsidies were meant to help firms with their national and >>international strategies.  >>D >>"(Firms) cannot pocket aid and then put the key under the door andI >>leave to develop elsewhere. It's a question of economic patriotism," he  >>said.  >>H >>HP said in July it would axe about 10 percent of its work force to cutI >>costs by $1.9 billion a year. The world's second-biggest computer maker C >>has said a total of 2,500 jobs will go in Germany and Britain, in " >>addition to the 1,240 in France. > ; > They shouldn't lay anyone off in Britain, but they should ) > totally pull out of Germany and France.  >  >>E >>The EU Commission has said it has no power to prevent HP dismissing G >>workers. But France's conservative government has stepped up rhetoric F >>over the case this week, making clear it is ready to put up a fight. >>E >>Labour Relations Minister Gerard Larcher is set to meet Serafini on 	 >>Monday.  >>G >>Villepin is trying to win back voters' confidence after they rejected G >>the European Union's constitution in a referendum in May. Many French 6 >>people said they voted "No" because of job concerns. >>I >>Under a policy he calls economic patriotism, Villepin has vowed to take B >>a tough line against any moves by firms that are not in France's >>interests. >>G >>The government is also drawing up a list of industries to keep out of  >>foreign hands. >>G >>It has made clear it wants to stave off any hostile bid for food firm E >>Danone (DANO.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) since rumours began that H >>U.S. drinks giant PepsiCo Inc. (PEP.N: Quote, Profile, Research) might
 >>make a bid.  >>E >>"It is time that France equips itself with an appropriate arsenal," C >>Villepin said in an interview published by Les Echos newspaper on 1 >>Friday. "We should compete with equal weapons."  >> >> >>
 >>More info :  >>---------  >> >>http://hpwfr.blogspot.com/ >> >>http://cftchp.blogspot.com/  >>s >>http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh08065_2005-09-23_15-26-04_l23191877_newsml  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 03:07:39 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com = Subject: Re: France keeps up pressure on Hewlett-Packard jobs - Message-ID: <87y85hxb7o.fsf@prep.synonet.com>    Z <Z@no.spam> writes:   D > Kyoto wasn't about _small_ efforts. It was about huge, potentially> > crippling efforts: a 30% reduction of CO2 emissions by 2010.  D So in 2010 there will be 70% of base CO2 (energy) emmissions (cost).H In 1998/99 the chinese finished building a major new petrochemical plantB that uses 11% the energy of it contempoies of about the same age.   D So who will have the price advantage? BTW, the maintainance costs of) that plant are also a fraction of others.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 12:09:34 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.comB Subject: HP could cut fewer jobs in France than it first announcedC Message-ID: <1127934574.176101.133550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    http://hpwfr.blogspot.com/   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 11:41:18 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :C Message-ID: <1127932878.290576.261790@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   B You can't claim to be an ethical company, make profits, distribute millions to some executives C in salary and stocks, buy your own stocks (7 millions $) and at the 	 same time  lay off your employees.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 11:45:05 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :C Message-ID: <1127933105.941509.197050@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   A >If HP has employees that are surplus to what it needs to conduct @ >business, there should not be an external requirement to retain >them.  E Do you really think that all the engineering people recently fired in  the US were a surplus ?  E Don't you think that a company like HP which includes Tandem, Digital @  deserves a CEO with a higher vision than just buying its stocks and outsourcing ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:07:57 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :A Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050928130745.02c67650@raptor.psccos.com>    why?  0 At 01:54 PM 9/28/2005, mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote:C >You can't claim to be an ethical company, make profits, distribute  >millions to some executivesD >in salary and stocks, buy your own stocks (7 millions $) and at the
 >same time >lay off your employees.   ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 14:28:12 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :3 Message-ID: <lbuRIJ9iJg5q@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <1127933105.941509.197050@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, mark_hpq@yahoo.com writes:B >>If HP has employees that are surplus to what it needs to conductA >>business, there should not be an external requirement to retain  >>them.  > G > Do you really think that all the engineering people recently fired in  > the US were a surplus ?   & I think it is their judgement to make.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 13:59:06 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :C Message-ID: <1127941145.987676.246090@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Dan O'Reilly wrote:  > why?   Left to you as an exercise.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 14:28:03 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :C Message-ID: <1127942883.426017.252630@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    Dan O'Reilly wrote:  > why?    G What would it take to make it unethical? Would they have to shoot their  surplus employees in the head?     > 2 > At 01:54 PM 9/28/2005, mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote:E > >You can't claim to be an ethical company, make profits, distribute  > >millions to some executivesF > >in salary and stocks, buy your own stocks (7 millions $) and at the > >same time > >lay off your employees. >  > ------L > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+L > | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |L > | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |L > | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |L > | http://www.process.com        |                                        |L > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 14:44:31 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :C Message-ID: <1127943871.175020.167190@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   
 AEF wrote: > Dan O'Reilly wrote:  > > why? >  > I > What would it take to make it unethical? Would they have to shoot their   > surplus employees in the head? >  >   D I think if they did that they would really be shooting themselves in	 the foot!    :-)))   ================================   > > 4 > > At 01:54 PM 9/28/2005, mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote:G > > >You can't claim to be an ethical company, make profits, distribute   > > >millions to some executivesH > > >in salary and stocks, buy your own stocks (7 millions $) and at the > > >same time > > >lay off your employees. > > 
 > > ------N > > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+N > > | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |N > > | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |N > > | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |N > > | http://www.process.com        |                                        |N > > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:10:14 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :9 Message-ID: <epF_e.6541$cq2.705405@news20.bellglobal.com>   2 "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message; news:6.1.2.0.2.20050928130745.02c67650@raptor.psccos.com...  > 2 > At 01:54 PM 9/28/2005, mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote:D >>You can't claim to be an ethical company, make profits, distribute >>millions to some executives E >>in salary and stocks, buy your own stocks (7 millions $) and at the  >>same time  >>lay off your employees.  >  > why? >   I { part of this response also applies to the related post where people are ( crabbing about "HP in France + Germany")  K I don't want my response to your query be taken as a insult so please don't H take offence when I say that many home-grown Americans think differentlyH than people from other democratic western cultures. (notice I didn't say  better or worse, just different)  K Starting as children, many Americans are immersed in a cowboy culture; this C culture was "necessary" in order to fuel expansion into the western J frontier but might be obsolete today with people living so close together;D this view of self basically says "I got here as the result of my ownK efforts; everybody else could do the same; if they can't, too bad, but stay I out of my way and stay off my property". p.s. Many computer programmers I L have met also share this point of view; it's almost like we play the part ofI an angry God in this artificial world which we have created and now rule.   I Compare this to Europeans for a moment who are taught at a very young age D about the evils of feudalism and how the common folk needed to stickI together in order to protect themselves from the church; or from the rich L man living in the castle on the hill; or from the rich man that is using theH church to say "that God has chosen his family to rule over yours". TheseJ common people survived by sticking together in a social way (union); theirC use of the word social, and even socialism, does not carry the evil 4 connotations that it does in the western hemisphere.  H So back to your point; give millions of bonuses to rich guys at the sameB time you lay off the work force moves in the direction of economicI feudalism; for the company in question the result will be a bunch of rich I guys (who can't do the job anyway) and fewer skilled workers; in the mean J time you've ripped off the shareholder by diluting his investment. Do thisG enough times and the economy will suffer. You can kind of see something J weird happen in North America where people shop at Wal-Mart because of theE bargains; yet 80% of all stuff sold at Wal-Mart is made in China. The J Wal-Mart people say "we have the right to do this in order to maximize ourE profits". Mean while, how many North American jobs are lost to China? I Wal-Mart can be flippant and say "let the unemployed Americans take a few I night courses then move to something else" but how often does this really J happen? It's more likely that they'll be competing for the job of Wal-MartJ greeter. The when your wages are cut to rock bottom you can only afford to shop at Wal-Mart.   K On a related note the American, Henry Ford, increased wages from $1 to $5 a J day so that his employees could buy Ford products. God only knows how muchH this stimulated the US economy. Later, Henry's cousin wanted to increaseK family profits and so sped up the assembly line; people started to get hurt H so unions were formed to protect the little guy; the Ford family thoughtJ they had the right to hire thugs to machine-gun the strikers; so Ford ends8 up morphing from industrialist-hero to feudalist-cowboy.  I (since then the rich have done a good job of convincing the working class E that unions are evil and should be avoided at all cost. Mob influence F notwithstanding, who can remember the last corporate scandal caused by; unionized employees? I can't think of a single one example)   I There are many anecdotal examples of arguments for an against, but it has L always seemed to me that money was an economic lubricant and that society asL a whole does better when "the lubricant" is spread around rather than havingJ it concentrated in the hands of the very few. (p.s. please don't take this> remark to an extreme; I'm not advocating Marxism or communism)  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:24:59 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :A Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050928180257.07caca08@raptor.psccos.com>   ( At 05:10 PM 9/28/2005, Neil Rieck wrote:L >Starting as children, many Americans are immersed in a cowboy culture; thisD >culture was "necessary" in order to fuel expansion into the westernK >frontier but might be obsolete today with people living so close together; E >this view of self basically says "I got here as the result of my own L >efforts; everybody else could do the same; if they can't, too bad, but stayJ >out of my way and stay off my property". p.s. Many computer programmers IM >have met also share this point of view; it's almost like we play the part of J >an angry God in this artificial world which we have created and now rule. > I >So back to your point; give millions of bonuses to rich guys at the same C >time you lay off the work force moves in the direction of economic J >feudalism; for the company in question the result will be a bunch of richJ >guys (who can't do the job anyway) and fewer skilled workers; in the meanC >time you've ripped off the shareholder by diluting his investment.   H On the contrary.  In the mid 80's, when I was a Digital employee, I was K told (and I believe it, I've had it confirmed many times since then), that  L it cost Digital about $93,000 per year.  And that was around 1983, and it's D now 2005, so I would guess it's in the $150k range (if not higher - K conventional wisdom says at least 2x the employee's salary when you add in  ? bennies, an office, etc).  So a $1m bonus equates AT BEST to 4  L employees.  Then comes the question of "if you can lay off the employee and 6 still get the job done, was that employee necessary?".   >Do thisH >enough times and the economy will suffer. You can kind of see somethingK >weird happen in North America where people shop at Wal-Mart because of the F >bargains; yet 80% of all stuff sold at Wal-Mart is made in China. TheK >Wal-Mart people say "we have the right to do this in order to maximize our F >profits". Mean while, how many North American jobs are lost to China?J >Wal-Mart can be flippant and say "let the unemployed Americans take a fewJ >night courses then move to something else" but how often does this reallyK >happen? It's more likely that they'll be competing for the job of Wal-Mart K >greeter. The when your wages are cut to rock bottom you can only afford to  >shop at Wal-Mart.  K I remember in the late 80's: the Japanese were going to own America.  They  I made everything cheaper, they had all the money, they *gasp* were buying  L American real estate and American companies.  Where is the Japanese economy J today?  Pretty much still in the tank.  As are the heavily-socialized and G government-subsidized economies of France and Germany (and to a lesser  L extent, the UK).  Where's the US economy?  Near record growth.  Near record A unemployment.  With a better-educated workforce than ever before.   I It's the nature of business to change, to contract in some sectors while  J expanding in others.  How many people make buggy whips now?  Or how many, F for that matter, make VAX computers now?  Business changes.  It's the K responsibility of the workforce to change with the business cycle, not the  J other way around.  And it's certainly not the responsibility of a company E to make sure you're educated and ready for your NEXT job; it's their  J responsibility to make sure you can do your CURRENT job.  If you can talk D your company out of training to advance your education, so much the J better.  But that's not a given right, it's something a company may elect  to do.  H Look, the bottom line is, the managers of a company are beholden to the H stockholders.  Calvin Coolidge said, and he was right, "the business of F America is business".  No business, no jobs.  If Americans can make a I product cheaper than they do in China, then we should be buying American  L products.  But personally, I vote for spending the least amount of money to K get the most amount of product.   A company maximizing profits is a way of  D life.  Some say execs shouldn't get big bonuses.  Well, I should be H thinner.  Both are simply platitudes.  Too much of what's being said is H very "Marx-ish" in the manner of "from  each according to his means, to E each according to his needs".  I just don't buy into that philosophy.   J >(since then the rich have done a good job of convincing the working classF >that unions are evil and should be avoided at all cost. Mob influenceG >notwithstanding, who can remember the last corporate scandal caused by < >unionized employees? I can't think of a single one example)  J Bulls**t.  I've been in a union (I was forced to be in it to work) when I L was in college.  It was nothing but a money-grubbing machine from the union L members - we were forced (required to join to work there) to pay around 15% $ of our monthly salary as union dues.  K Unions had a place in the early 20th century, but they're outdated now, by  L and large.  And if you don't think unions can be scandalous, you need to do F more research.  The people who run the unions are every bit as "evil" E (read: "profit oriented") as any CEO of any company.  They make huge  L salaries on the backs of worker's "voluntary" contributions, and unlike the J CEO of a company, they're not beholden to ANYBODY - least of all is their L concern for how the workers feel about that.  And as much as people like to H claim how Big Business is in the pockets of the Republican party, labor L unions are every bit as much (if not more) in the pockets of the Democratic ' party - read the lists of contributors.   J >There are many anecdotal examples of arguments for an against, but it hasM >always seemed to me that money was an economic lubricant and that society as M >a whole does better when "the lubricant" is spread around rather than having K >it concentrated in the hands of the very few. (p.s. please don't take this ? >remark to an extreme; I'm not advocating Marxism or communism)   H No, not taking anything to the extreme; in fact, I've very much enjoyed H this exchange with you.  I suggest, however, you might add Adam Smith's K "Wealth of Nations" to your reading list.  Hint: he doesn't advocate "from  " each according to his means..."...   ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:58:39 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :+ Message-ID: <433B3C3E.304352A6@comcast.net>    Dan O'Reilly wrote:  > * > At 05:10 PM 9/28/2005, Neil Rieck wrote:N > >Starting as children, many Americans are immersed in a cowboy culture; thisF > >culture was "necessary" in order to fuel expansion into the westernM > >frontier but might be obsolete today with people living so close together; G > >this view of self basically says "I got here as the result of my own N > >efforts; everybody else could do the same; if they can't, too bad, but stayL > >out of my way and stay off my property". p.s. Many computer programmers IO > >have met also share this point of view; it's almost like we play the part of L > >an angry God in this artificial world which we have created and now rule. > > K > >So back to your point; give millions of bonuses to rich guys at the same E > >time you lay off the work force moves in the direction of economic L > >feudalism; for the company in question the result will be a bunch of richL > >guys (who can't do the job anyway) and fewer skilled workers; in the meanE > >time you've ripped off the shareholder by diluting his investment.  > I > On the contrary.  In the mid 80's, when I was a Digital employee, I was L > told (and I believe it, I've had it confirmed many times since then), thatM > it cost Digital about $93,000 per year.  And that was around 1983, and it's E > now 2005, so I would guess it's in the $150k range (if not higher - L > conventional wisdom says at least 2x the employee's salary when you add in@ > bennies, an office, etc).  So a $1m bonus equates AT BEST to 4M > employees.  Then comes the question of "if you can lay off the employee and 8 > still get the job done, was that employee necessary?".  H ...to which I reply quickly, "It depends. What was the level of customerD demand atthe time, and are you still prepared to meet an increase in: customer demand of at least twofold? ...fourfold? ...more?  
 > >Do thisJ > >enough times and the economy will suffer. You can kind of see somethingM > >weird happen in North America where people shop at Wal-Mart because of the H > >bargains; yet 80% of all stuff sold at Wal-Mart is made in China. TheM > >Wal-Mart people say "we have the right to do this in order to maximize our H > >profits". Mean while, how many North American jobs are lost to China?L > >Wal-Mart can be flippant and say "let the unemployed Americans take a fewL > >night courses then move to something else" but how often does this reallyM > >happen? It's more likely that they'll be competing for the job of Wal-Mart M > >greeter. The when your wages are cut to rock bottom you can only afford to  > >shop at Wal-Mart. > L > I remember in the late 80's: the Japanese were going to own America.  TheyJ > made everything cheaper, they had all the money, they *gasp* were buyingM > American real estate and American companies.  Where is the Japanese economy K > today?  Pretty much still in the tank.  As are the heavily-socialized and H > government-subsidized economies of France and Germany (and to a lesserM > extent, the UK).  Where's the US economy?  Near record growth.  Near record   
 ...high...  C > unemployment.  With a better-educated workforce than ever before.   B ...at unprecedented salaries and benefits levels, with median homeC prices rising uncontrolledly such that the average unskilled hourly G worker cannot afford to live near their job, nor commute to it, either.   J > It's the nature of business to change, to contract in some sectors whileK > expanding in others.  How many people make buggy whips now?  Or how many, + > for that matter, make VAX computers now?    F Well, essentially, any Pentium-II class or better PC has the potential! to support either Charon or SIMH.   F Of course, native OpenVMS-x86 would be far better (and far cheaper)...   > Business changes.  It's the L > responsibility of the workforce to change with the business cycle, not the > other way around.   A Like everything else, it depends. Has the "technology" of digging F ditches changed recently? ...collecting refuse? ...painting interiors?- ...stick-building homes and other structures?   8 > And it's certainly not the responsibility of a companyF > to make sure you're educated and ready for your NEXT job; it's their; > responsibility to make sure you can do your CURRENT job.    H ...and a disturbing number of companies will even shirk that, making theF excuse, "...but if we train them, they'll to make more menoy somewhereH else!". (The comeback to that is so obvious, I won't exert keystrokes to	 type it.)    > If you can talk E > your company out of training to advance your education, so much the 
 > better.   6 I wouldn't talk them OUT OF it, I'd talk them INTO it!  B How can a company POSSIBLY remain "competitive" without a properly trained workforce?  B > But that's not a given right, it's something a company may elect > to do.   Many do not.  I > Look, the bottom line is, the managers of a company are beholden to the I > stockholders.  Calvin Coolidge said, and he was right, "the business of G > America is business".  No business, no jobs.  If Americans can make a J > product cheaper than they do in China, then we should be buying American > products.   H Show them to me and I'll buy them instead of the cheap, slave-made crap.  B > But personally, I vote for spending the least amount of money toL > get the most amount of product.   A company maximizing profits is a way of3 > life.  Some say execs shouldn't get big bonuses.    ! ...and they are quite right, IMO.    > Well, I should be ( > thinner.  Both are simply platitudes.   % That's the problem, not the solution.   " > Too much of what's being said isI > very "Marx-ish" in the manner of "from  each according to his means, to G > each according to his needs".  I just don't buy into that philosophy.   A Kinda wierd, since that happens to be the basis of the income tax D system: ability to pay (until you reach certain threshold, then thatH shift to ability to avoid - not "evade", "avoid" - important distinction, there!), and the basis of Medicare/Medicaid.  L > >(since then the rich have done a good job of convincing the working classH > >that unions are evil and should be avoided at all cost. Mob influenceI > >notwithstanding, who can remember the last corporate scandal caused by > > >unionized employees? I can't think of a single one example) > K > Bulls**t.  I've been in a union (I was forced to be in it to work) when I M > was in college.  It was nothing but a money-grubbing machine from the union M > members - we were forced (required to join to work there) to pay around 15% & > of our monthly salary as union dues.  G Probably a wash. Without the union, your pay would likely have been 15%  (or more) lower (before taxes).   L > Unions had a place in the early 20th century, but they're outdated now, by
 > and large.    B I'm sure many seeing their benefits cut while profits reach recordC levels would disagree with that, as would many seniors who would be = living under someone else's roof (or underpass) without their  union-protected pensions.   A > And if you don't think unions can be scandalous, you need to do G > more research.  The people who run the unions are every bit as "evil" F > (read: "profit oriented") as any CEO of any company.  They make hugeM > salaries on the backs of worker's "voluntary" contributions, and unlike the K > CEO of a company, they're not beholden to ANYBODY - least of all is their M > concern for how the workers feel about that.  And as much as people like to I > claim how Big Business is in the pockets of the Republican party, labor M > unions are every bit as much (if not more) in the pockets of the Democratic ) > party - read the lists of contributors.   
 Debatable.  L > >There are many anecdotal examples of arguments for an against, but it hasO > >always seemed to me that money was an economic lubricant and that society as O > >a whole does better when "the lubricant" is spread around rather than having M > >it concentrated in the hands of the very few. (p.s. please don't take this A > >remark to an extreme; I'm not advocating Marxism or communism)  > I > No, not taking anything to the extreme; in fact, I've very much enjoyed I > this exchange with you.  I suggest, however, you might add Adam Smith's L > "Wealth of Nations" to your reading list.  Hint: he doesn't advocate "from$ > each according to his means..."...   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:48:20 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :9 Message-ID: <YtJ_e.7026$cq2.778690@news20.bellglobal.com>   3 "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message  ; news:6.1.2.0.2.20050928180257.07caca08@raptor.psccos.com... * > At 05:10 PM 9/28/2005, Neil Rieck wrote: [...snip...] > M > I remember in the late 80's: the Japanese were going to own America.  They  K > made everything cheaper, they had all the money, they *gasp* were buying  F > American real estate and American companies.  Where is the Japanese = > economy today?  Pretty much still in the tank.  As are the  G > heavily-socialized and government-subsidized economies of France and  K > Germany (and to a lesser extent, the UK).  Where's the US economy?  Near  D > record growth.  Near record unemployment.  With a better-educated  > workforce than ever before.  >    #####   I While the value of the yen has dropped by a factor of 4 from the 80's to  J now, they have a very high standard of living (which is probably the only K economic indicator that human beings should pay any attention to) and they  H have no where near the unemployment figures seen in the USA. In fact, I K think Germany and Japan might be the number one and number two power house  L economies on the planet when compared on a per capita basis. (caveat: there H have been some recent concerns over the measurements called GNP and GDP A because these figures do not provide acceptable comparisons; see  K http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNP for more details; the person who screamed  H the loudest was the guy (I don't have his name handy at the moment) who M invented it to measure activity during war time; he related this concerns at  ' his speech when he won the Nobel prize)    #####   L I'm afraid you've got most of this all wrong. Comparing the economic output M of the United States of America to the United States of Europe on a state by  2 state basis (sorted by economic output) show that:   Germany exceeds California UK exceeds New York State  France exceeds Texas Italy exceeds Florida  Spain exceeds Illinois all the way down the list...  E The dept of the USA is $6 trillion and climbing; part of this is the  = constant drain of funding a huge world-wide military machine.   I On the flip side, Europe has almost no debt and individual countries are  L required, by law, to maintain a balanced budget in order to remain a member K of the EEC. Also, the combined output of all Europe's armed forces is tiny   (on a per capita basis).  G I wish it were not true but America, our closest neighbour, friend and  K trading partner, is travelling at high speed toward an economic brick wall  H while the dogmatic economists just keep singing the same old tired tune.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:24:56 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: HSJ40 manuals+ Message-ID: <433B3458.209624C9@comcast.net>    Alan Greig wrote:  > I > Does anyone know of any online copies of the manuals for the HSJ40? I'm D > looking at a system with a tape drive showing as "misconfigured noC > device at..." but before I go swapping it out I'd like the actual  > documentation in front of me.  > H > I'm fairly familiar with the HSZ controllers but not the HSJ. Is thereA > anything obvious I might be missing? I believe someone may have B > previously attempted to swap the unit while the (dual-redundant)D > controllers were running. Could this have caused a problem? PleaseC > don't say blown SCSI bus! Might something as simple as a "restart $ > other/this" sequence do the trick. > $ > You can see why I'd like the docs.  E Well, there's really not that much difference between HSJ and HSZ, at G least from the perspective of how they deal with devices that appear to  go away like that.  B The only major differences between HSJ and HSZ have to do with theH storage / computer interconnect (CI or SCSI) and the HSZ console LUN (no parallel in HSJ).    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:22:23 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Jump to console ?+ Message-ID: <433B33BF.6F3BCF6A@comcast.net>    Z wrote: > H > After power down/power up, our ES40 shows "jump to console" on the LED
 > display. >  > What does this mean?   How long was it powered down?   = May need to wait about five minutes, then try to start it up.   ; Otherwise, yeah - it's possible the firmware got clobbered.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:00:09 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> ) Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Licence Issues 3 Message-ID: <JnE_e.13405$2N1.3777@news.cpqcorp.net>   ) John.Martin_At_Home@BTInternet.com wrote: H > 2. Does the single hobby licence act as a licence for add on kits likeG > C? I have tried running VMSInstal to instal the C kit and it does not 3 > find a valid licence for it, no surprise I guess.   I At the OpenVMS Hobbyist website, there are two types of license requests:  1) The OpenVMS license PAK$ 2) The layered products license PAKsB Each comes as an e-mail message. The first is fairly small, as it D contains only the OpenVMS license. The second is quite large, as it F contains PAKs for most of the available layered products. Sounds like E you need to also do a request for the 2nd one. It will contain the C  
 compiler PAK.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:03:20 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) ) Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Licence Issues 3 Message-ID: <YiF_e.13420$%O1.8023@news.cpqcorp.net>   ] In article <Xns96E01F38E82ADCovmsrox@212.100.160.126>, "Doc." <Doc@openvms-rocks.com> writes: I :John.Martin_At_Home@BTInternet.com wrote in news:1127922430.716932.18930  :@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:  ..J :If you want to write up your experiences on how to get through licensing J :for a beginner, we'd be happy to host it on http://www.openvms-rocks.com.  *   I cover some of this in the OpenVMS FAQ   '     <http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq/>   F   and would welcome a review or (particularly) updated text or relatedG   suggestions for what I have included there, given a fresh look at the <   materials within the FAQ from your particular perspective.  G   Within the FAQ section on OpenVMS licenses in general and the OpenVMS A   hobbyist licenses in particular is the following key paragraph:     D                    On the OpenVMS Hobbyist license registration formD                    at the above website (as of August 2005), you areJ                    offered the choice of the "OpenVMS VAX" license(s), theI                    "OpenVMS Alpha" license(s), and the "Layered Products" G                    licenses. You will want the operating system license D                    for your particular OpenVMS platform and you willF                    want the "Layered Products" licenses. You will wantE                    to select and to acquire two sets of license PAKs.     B   I've previously suggested that the licensing-related text at theB   hobbyist site be updated to better reflect the need for two setsA   of PAKs over there, too.  (I think the OpenVMS I64 license PAKs D   are now available, too, but that wasn't clear when last I looked.)      N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2005 22:11:27 GMT$ From: "Doc." <Doc@openvms-rocks.com>) Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Licence Issues 6 Message-ID: <Xns96E01F38E82ADCovmsrox@212.100.160.126>  H John.Martin_At_Home@BTInternet.com wrote in news:1127922430.716932.18930 @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:   > Some basic advise please...  > H > I have a MicoVAX3100-40 running OpenVMS7.3. My licence came along with > my purchase of the Vax.   H Did it?  Or did you just get a system with a license left on it?  There A are usually transfer fees to be paid to get a commerical license  J transferred from one owner to the other, if you haven't gone through this @ procedure then you may not be entitled to be using that license.  I > I want to add extra software TCP/IP, C etc. I have purchased my OpenVMS I > Hobby CD (v7.3) and joined UK HPUG and got my licence, in the form of a I > command file. I have not yet tried installing this command file over my & > current VMS, or a fresh VMS install.  B If you can get a later VMS kit, you're probably best with a fresh J install.  You'll not have any oddball hangovers from the prior use of the  system.   E > 1. My current licence is open ended time wise. The Hobbyist licence G > expires after 1 year, am I right in assuming you just request another I > licence and run the provided command file? Presumably VMS lets you into < > the system to do this even if the old licence has expired?  J You can get in via the console regardless of the license state.  What you J need to note is that after running the license command procedure you have I to load the licenses, the command file just registers them.  Once loaded  G they come into effect and can be seen by packages that depend on their   presence to load and run.   H > 2. Does the single hobby licence act as a licence for add on kits likeG > C? I have tried running VMSInstal to instal the C kit and it does not I > find a valid licence for it, no surprise I guess. It also fails because I > there are not some 5000 contiguous blocks available, do I need a SysGen I > change to cure the later? (My system disk is 2GB with only VMS and some  > 20MB of user files on it!)  J The single hobbyist license is the base OS license, for things like the C G compiler you need the layered products set of licenses.  That contains  J shedloads of stuff, you'll be back looking for kits after you've got that  one. :)   I > 3. Can I just run the OpenVMS Licence command file to cure all ills and  > then install the addon kits?  + Sort-of.  Loading the licenses is required.   I > I appreciate these questions probably pretty basic, so basic that noone F > seems to have bothered to leave answers lying around. Thanks for any > help.   I If you want to write up your experiences on how to get through licensing  I for a beginner, we'd be happy to host it on http://www.openvms-rocks.com.      Doc.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:28:42 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ) Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Licence Issues , Message-ID: <433B3539.53382990@teksavvy.com>  ) John.Martin_At_Home@BTInternet.com wrote: E > 1. My current licence is open ended time wise. The Hobbyist licence G > expires after 1 year, am I right in assuming you just request another - > licence and run the provided command file?    D Correct. But every year, it is a good idea to also issue the LICENSE= DELETE commands to remove the old licences that have expired.   H However, if you have a "good" VMS licence, you may wish to keep that oneC as the active licence and simply not run the command procedure that # registers the hobbyist VMS licence.   G YOu should have received 2 emails. One for the VMS license, and one for D all the layered products.  TCPIP services i sunder the "UCX" licence name.   F What you may wish to do is edit a copy of the procedure and remove any= product you don't need and then register only those you want.    >Presumably VMS lets you into < > the system to do this even if the old licence has expired?  G Yes, it lets you in on the console port. However, you can't telnet into C the system, and I think (not sure) that LAT is also non functional.     H > 2. Does the single hobby licence act as a licence for add on kits like > C?    H Nop. You need to install the layered products licences. There is a whole% bunch of them that come as one email.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:50:48 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> ! Subject: Re: SC008/Star Couplers. 3 Message-ID: <ImD_e.13397$PI1.5528@news.cpqcorp.net>    Leigh wrote: > I want to add two I > StorageWorks arrays with shelves and a few disks inside (very few). One H > array has one a HSJ40 inside and the other has a HSJ40C. The connectorF > for this appears like a D long D shape like a shrunken parallel portG > with four "teeth". These look like miniture co-ax connectors although , > I'd sort of assumed they were fibre based.  G Nope. Coax. Transmit and receive pairs, and there are two CI ports per  D HSJ controller, for folks who want to connect the controller to two & separate star couplers for redundancy.  I > Does the coupler have to have any special additional parts to work with ' > the HSJ's or is just a special cable?   I There's a special cable which breaks out those D-style connectors into 4  C separate coaxial cables with connectors on the end. From those you  B typically run blue coax cables to the star coupler. Cables can be B "thick" or "thin" (where "thin" is about the diameter of RG-58 or H Ethernet thinwire cable, and the older "thick" cables are close to half A an inch in diameter, IIRC, but can be up to 45 meters in length).   F > Does the Coupler attach an ID to the items or is it merely what's at > the end of a port?  H The Star Coupler is a piezoelectric RF transformer and acts merely as a D hub (with attenuation to avoid overdriving the receiver). The ID is H assigned with DIP switches at a VMS system's CI adapter, or via console # commands at the HSJ controller end.   G > The coupler can have 8 "devices" attached. Do the HSJ's appear as one  > or two devices each?  I And Star Coupler panels can be connected together with modularity cables  I (using those connectors at the center of the panel) to make 16-port star  I couplers. But you need not care, as you don't need that many connections.   H A typical HSJ has two CI ports. It will appear as the number of devices G you connect cables for -- one or two. If you connect both HSJ ports to  8 the same Star Coupler, you must give them different IDs.  F Note that HSJ controllers often come in dual-redundant pairs, sharing ! the same SCSI busses behind them.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 14:51:05 -0700 From: sean@obanion.us ! Subject: Re: SC008/Star Couplers. C Message-ID: <1127944265.654953.288150@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Keith,  & Are you sure you mean "piezoelectric"?  ; >From http://www.mse.cornell.edu/courses/engri111/piezo.htm   C "[A] permanently-polarized material such as quartz (SiO2) or barium B titanate (BaTiO3) will produce an electric field when the materialD changes dimensions as a result of an imposed mechanical force. These@ materials are piezoelectric, and this phenomenon is known as the piezoelectric effect.   ? Conversely, an applied electric field can cause a piezoelectric : material to change dimensions. This phenomenon is known as7 electrostriction, or the reverse piezoelectric effect."   9 I always thought of the coupler as a multi-coil inductor.      Sean   Keith Parris wrote:  > Leigh wrote: > > I want to add two K > > StorageWorks arrays with shelves and a few disks inside (very few). One J > > array has one a HSJ40 inside and the other has a HSJ40C. The connectorH > > for this appears like a D long D shape like a shrunken parallel portI > > with four "teeth". These look like miniture co-ax connectors although . > > I'd sort of assumed they were fibre based. > H > Nope. Coax. Transmit and receive pairs, and there are two CI ports perE > HSJ controller, for folks who want to connect the controller to two ( > separate star couplers for redundancy. > K > > Does the coupler have to have any special additional parts to work with ) > > the HSJ's or is just a special cable?  > J > There's a special cable which breaks out those D-style connectors into 4D > separate coaxial cables with connectors on the end. From those youC > typically run blue coax cables to the star coupler. Cables can be C > "thick" or "thin" (where "thin" is about the diameter of RG-58 or I > Ethernet thinwire cable, and the older "thick" cables are close to half C > an inch in diameter, IIRC, but can be up to 45 meters in length).  > H > > Does the Coupler attach an ID to the items or is it merely what's at > > the end of a port? > I > The Star Coupler is a piezoelectric RF transformer and acts merely as a E > hub (with attenuation to avoid overdriving the receiver). The ID is I > assigned with DIP switches at a VMS system's CI adapter, or via console % > commands at the HSJ controller end.  > I > > The coupler can have 8 "devices" attached. Do the HSJ's appear as one  > > or two devices each? > J > And Star Coupler panels can be connected together with modularity cablesJ > (using those connectors at the center of the panel) to make 16-port starK > couplers. But you need not care, as you don't need that many connections.  > I > A typical HSJ has two CI ports. It will appear as the number of devices H > you connect cables for -- one or two. If you connect both HSJ ports to: > the same Star Coupler, you must give them different IDs. > G > Note that HSJ controllers often come in dual-redundant pairs, sharing # > the same SCSI busses behind them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:30:09 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>! Subject: Re: SC008/Star Couplers. + Message-ID: <433B3591.232E0178@comcast.net>    Leigh wrote: > E > I would like some guidance on some older pieces of DEC/VAX hardware ! > most of this is before my time.  > I > There is a VAX6610 connected to quite a lot of disks in SA800 and SA600 G > cabinets with various RA92/72 type disks. I believe the disks are not F > directly attached to the VAX but via a SC008 Star Coupler to a HSC90I > which in turn is connected to the disks. As far as I am aware these are @ > the only two items connected to the Coupler. I want to add twoI > StorageWorks arrays with shelves and a few disks inside (very few). One H > array has one a HSJ40 inside and the other has a HSJ40C. The connectorF > for this appears like a D long D shape like a shrunken parallel portG > with four "teeth". These look like miniture co-ax connectors although , > I'd sort of assumed they were fibre based.  4 CI predates fibre-channel by a good number of years.  I > Does the coupler have to have any special additional parts to work with ' > the HSJ's or is just a special cable?   C Same coaxial cables as are used for HSC. The only difference is the D "pigtail" that collects the four coaxes and passes them to the HSJ's bulkhead connector.   F > Does the Coupler attach an ID to the items or is it merely what's at > the end of a port?   It is entirely passive.   G > The coupler can have 8 "devices" attached. Do the HSJ's appear as one  > or two devices each?  $ One each, with transmit/receive A/B.  H > I find this to be bit of a grey area so if anybody has any handy hints3 > or gotchas to look out for I would appreciate it.   E Handle the coaxial cable carefully. The older cables (large diameter) F have a minimum bend radius before the electrical characteristics start? to change. Likewis ethe smaller (newer), but they're a bit less A sensitive to it. Also, the newer cables work better for the newer  140Mbit CI.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:55:45 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: see anybody you know?0 Message-ID: <00A4A7BC.C93D9919@SendSpamHere.ORG>   http://www.ianhaig.net/web  ) Check out the "Men of the Internet, 2004"    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:53:21 -0400 0 From: BRAD <bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt>" Subject: Re: see anybody you know?0 Message-ID: <_N6dnWLaQsk5e6feRVn-3Q@comcast.com>    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > http://www.ianhaig.net/web > + > Check out the "Men of the Internet, 2004"  >   5 Is that Hunter Goatley, top row, third from the left?   8 I don't see you there (at least not a recent picture)...   --  . Bradford J. Hamilton "All opinions are my own"@                       "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' with @"=                       "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job"    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:24:16 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG" Subject: Re: see anybody you know?0 Message-ID: <00A4A7C9.26B2D053@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <_N6dnWLaQsk5e6feRVn-3Q@comcast.com>, BRAD <bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt> writes: ! >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  >> http://www.ianhaig.net/web  >>  , >> Check out the "Men of the Internet, 2004" >>   > 6 >Is that Hunter Goatley, top row, third from the left?   Yup...      9 >I don't see you there (at least not a recent picture)...    Not in any of those pictures!   D Albeit I may be a geek in real life, I wear my disguise of the meek,C mild-mannered handsome me unbefitting a picture with that group. :)    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 14:27:29 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) " Subject: Re: see anybody you know?3 Message-ID: <jBohg51M$6O5@eisner.encompasserve.org>    Why no, as a matter of fact.  U In article <00A4A7BC.C93D9919@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > http://www.ianhaig.net/web  B I get a JPEG image 60x39 pixels that seems to say "web" in cursive characters.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:44:31 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG" Subject: Re: see anybody you know?0 Message-ID: <00A4A7CB.FB6C3204@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <jBohg51M$6O5@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  >Why no, as a matter of fact.  > V >In article <00A4A7BC.C93D9919@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> http://www.ianhaig.net/web  > C >I get a JPEG image 60x39 pixels that seems to say "web" in cursive  >characters.  + OK... try the link to the actual picture...   % http://www.ianhaig.net/men/index.html    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 12:54:39 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> " Subject: Re: see anybody you know?B Message-ID: <1127937279.963775.30810@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  ! VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: e > In article <_N6dnWLaQsk5e6feRVn-3Q@comcast.com>, BRAD <bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt> writes: # > >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > >> http://www.ianhaig.net/web  > >>. > >> Check out the "Men of the Internet, 2004" > >> > > 8 > >Is that Hunter Goatley, top row, third from the left? >  > Yup... >  > ; > >I don't see you there (at least not a recent picture)...  >  > Not in any of those pictures!  > F > Albeit I may be a geek in real life, I wear my disguise of the meek,E > mild-mannered handsome me unbefitting a picture with that group. :)  >   F I couldn't find Al Gore's picture there either, but there's still some open space on page 8. ;-)   E A walk around the sites under the "Web Devolution" link might explain @ why such a high percentage of geeks wear eye-glasses! Youch! 8^0   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 17:58:10 -0700 From: goathunter@goatley.com" Subject: Re: see anybody you know?B Message-ID: <1127955490.800052.71350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   BRAD wrote: " > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > http://www.ianhaig.net/web > > - > > Check out the "Men of the Internet, 2004"  > >  > 7 > Is that Hunter Goatley, top row, third from the left?  > C That's funny.  For what it's worth, I wear smaller glasses now. ;-)    Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ 9 goathunter@goatley.com    http://wwww.goatley.com/hunter/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:54:09 -0400 0 From: BRAD <bMradAhamPiltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt>" Subject: Re: see anybody you know?0 Message-ID: <lqidnXjpMOvZ1KbeRVn-rQ@comcast.com>  ) John G - a voice in the wilderness wrote: " > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >  >> http://www.ianhaig.net/web  >>, >> Check out the "Men of the Internet, 2004" >> > K > OMG - is that Kreskin with those big glasses (index6)?  What did he have   > to do with the internet? >   G He conjured it - if we stop believing in it, it will collapse (Al Gore   notwithstanding).    --  . Bradford J. Hamilton "All opinions are my own"@                       "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' with @"=                       "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job"    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 12:35:56 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com  Subject: Time to produce EV79s! C Message-ID: <1127936155.971608.253480@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   ? ok Sue and everyone else at HP ... after reading this, itaniums ? future doesn't look bright, and it is now time to make IBM live 7 up to its legal obligations and start making EV79s NOW!   > The chip improvement timeline looks like a disaster since they' removed the alpha team from itanium ...   ? Do it now or lose vms customers to IBM!  Why can't IBM have not > had NIH syndrome and bought vms for power????????  FOOLS!!!!!!    ) http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26519    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2005 21:53:01 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)# Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! + Message-ID: <3q0hltFcgtloU1@individual.net>   C In article <1127936155.971608.253480@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,  	bob@instantwhip.com writes: > A > Do it now or lose vms customers to IBM!  Why can't IBM have not @ > had NIH syndrome and bought vms for power????????  FOOLS!!!!!! >    Being your usual fool, Bob.   E It has nothing to do with NIH.  VMS was never offered to IBM for sale H and you can't force a company to sell something it doesn't want to sell.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 15:37:30 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com # Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! A Message-ID: <1127947050.194774.8030@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   / being your usual fool Bill, you forgot that our . good friend Robert Palmer offered both vms and/ alpha to everyone, but no takers ... I posted a / letter here in the spring or last year from IBM 1 that said IBM views vms as outdated and obsolete!   / now either IBM has NIH syndrome or they are the 2 dummest company on the planet ... which one is it?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:38:20 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net># Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! + Message-ID: <433B377B.6E944793@comcast.net>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > A > ok Sue and everyone else at HP ... after reading this, itaniums A > future doesn't look bright, and it is now time to make IBM live 9 > up to its legal obligations and start making EV79s NOW!  > @ > The chip improvement timeline looks like a disaster since they) > removed the alpha team from itanium ...  > A > Do it now or lose vms customers to IBM!  Why can't IBM have not @ > had NIH syndrome and bought vms for power????????  FOOLS!!!!!! > + > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26519   @ In case you haven't noticed, that on-line publication carries no* credibility with anyone who matters at HP.  @ ...and case you haven't noticed Keith and Rob reflecting all theD "sunshine that's being blown up their skirts", HP thinks life on theD Good Ship Itanic is just ducky. (That Leo DeCaprio movie has been onG cable recently, so I can't help thinking just now each of them standing 9 appropriately proclaiming, "I'm the King of the World!".)   E Dunno if it's worth anything to you lose that "Boob" handle, but just  wanted to point those out.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:01:34 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> # Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! , Message-ID: <433B3CEA.2C85C7E4@teksavvy.com>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote:A > future doesn't look bright, and it is now time to make IBM live 9 > up to its legal obligations and start making EV79s NOW!   * IBM has no legal obligations to make EV79.  F Compaq had committed to having its own engineers work on the shrink toB make EV79, at which point, Compaq could hire any FAB to make thoseF chips.  Just like you can choose any vendor to silkscreen some logo onM t-shirts. It is Compaq/HP who have promised EV79 and broke on their promises.     + > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26519   C Even if you remove the negatiove slant on that IA64 thing which The > Inquirer has, it is still bad news now matter how you spin it.        H In terms of Alpha, I think this first step would be for HP to revoke itsG order to prematurely end Alpha sales and commit to making Alpha systems D available until at least 2007. During this time, they may admit that8 Alpha's speed can be boosted some with a process shrink.  G In the end, the path forward for VMS is to go on the 8086. If VMS wants C to grow and survive, it it wants to participate in the small/medium H business market instead of being relegated to large mainframe servers inB the upper niche of mainframes which is what IA64 ia forcing VMS toL restrict itself to.  Alpha can extend VMS until it is available on the 8086.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:34:51 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) . Subject: Re: VMS 4.6/4.7 Local Area VAXcluster3 Message-ID: <fnB_e.13384$Jd1.8038@news.cpqcorp.net>   X In article <PZg_e.13298$kY.6108@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: ..  F   Following up to my own posting, as I received various off-line emailC   on this thread -- posting it all here (once) as it's easier than  /   replicating the answers across the questions.   C   4.7A was (apparently?) available as a full release of (as it was  F   then known) VMS, and the release that was used by most sites -- the D   MicroVAX 3xxx series systems in particular, for instance, required   the "A" releases.   E   I generally installed the VMS -- and not MicroVMS -- V4.7A release, (   when I needed that vintage of release.  G   I do not immediately have nor immediately know of any copies of these F   old keys for any of the V4.* features, other than what I have postedC   on the Freeware for DECnet.  (Based on digging into some very old G   documentation, it looks like LAV010.A is the VMSINSTAL kit containing E   the for the MicroVMS and VMS V4.* releases and the masked (.MSKEXE) F   images.  I do not happen to have this key, and -- were it to land inI   my local purview, and much like the process I went through with the old I   DECnet key -- I would need formal clearance before its redistribution.)    	--   H   Now if y'all will excuse me, I have an OpenVMS I64 crashdump to go digE   through -- the crashdump has finished writing out its multi-million /   block dumpfile, and the box has now rebooted.       N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2005 14:01:32 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: [Q] DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? C Message-ID: <1127938795.354636.197410@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Hello,  9 How can a node drop itself? See below. What does it mean?   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.76  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_X! DECnet event 4.18, adjacency down 2 >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.72G Circuit SVA-0, Dropped by adjacent node, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.76  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_X DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 2 >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.73- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.77  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_X! DECnet event 4.18, adjacency down 2 >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.73G Circuit SVA-0, Dropped by adjacent node, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.77  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_X DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 2 >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.74- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  .  .  . 8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:18.22  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_X! DECnet event 4.18, adjacency down 2 >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.95G Circuit SVA-0, Dropped by adjacent node, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:18.23  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_X DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 2 >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:13.02- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:57.38  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_X! DECnet event 4.18, adjacency down 2 >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:57.375 Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node listener receive timeout  Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:05.36  %%%%%%%%%%% Logfile time stamp    ? On another node, some rejections. Why would a node be rejected?     8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:23.24  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y% DECnet event 4.16, adjacency rejected 2 >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:23.00- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:23.26  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 2 >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:23.01- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.125 (NODE_F)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:33.36  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y% DECnet event 4.16, adjacency rejected 2 >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:33.35- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.125 (NODE_F)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:33.36  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 2 >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:33.35- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:38.97  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y% DECnet event 4.16, adjacency rejected 2 >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:38.97- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:38.98  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 2 >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:38.97- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.125 (NODE_F)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:44.35  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y% DECnet event 4.16, adjacency rejected 2 >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:40.35- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.125 (NODE_F)   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:44.36  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 2 >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:40.35- Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:35:48 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) = Subject: Re: [Q] DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? 3 Message-ID: <8VE_e.13415$dP1.2828@news.cpqcorp.net>   j In article <1127938795.354636.197410@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  : :How can a node drop itself? See below. What does it mean?     No answers.  Sorry.      Some questions, however...  -   What is connected onto the SVA-0 port here?   A   Is this box an end-node, a level one router, or an area router?       What is your network topology?  <   Does this box have more than one network connection to the.   same or to the same bridged network segment?  C   What versions of DECnet and OpenVMS (and ECOs) are involved here?        One guess:  @   Network cabling problems (cable shorts, too little or too muchA   termination on ThinWire or thick wire, etc) and controller (and A   the transceiver, for those NICs that use one) hardware problems %   can cause DECnet circuits to yo-yo.     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:17:11 -0400 > From: "Chris Moore" <paynoattentionto@themanbehindthe.curtain>= Subject: Re: [Q] DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? 9 Message-ID: <hVJ_e.2099$l03.444101@news20.bellglobal.com>   H Is there a PhaseIV router on the network at all?  If everybody is an EndB Node , adjacencies can get mucked up big-time, if they work at all    / "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message = news:1127938795.354636.197410@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  > Hello, > ; > How can a node drop itself? See below. What does it mean?  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.76  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_X# > DECnet event 4.18, adjacency down 4 > >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.72I > Circuit SVA-0, Dropped by adjacent node, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.76  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_X! > DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 4 > >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.73/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.77  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_X# > DECnet event 4.18, adjacency down 4 > >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.73I > Circuit SVA-0, Dropped by adjacent node, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.77  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_X! > DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 4 > >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.74/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  > .  > .  > . : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:18.22  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_X# > DECnet event 4.18, adjacency down 4 > >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:12.95I > Circuit SVA-0, Dropped by adjacent node, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:18.23  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_X! > DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 4 > >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:13.02/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:12:57.38  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_X# > DECnet event 4.18, adjacency down 4 > >From node 1.218 (NODE_X), 25-SEP-2005 19:12:57.377 > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node listener receive timeout   > Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X) > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:05.36  %%%%%%%%%%% > Logfile time stamp >  > A > On another node, some rejections. Why would a node be rejected?  >  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:23.24  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y' > DECnet event 4.16, adjacency rejected 4 > >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:23.00/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:23.26  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y! > DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 4 > >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:23.01/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.125 (NODE_F)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:33.36  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y' > DECnet event 4.16, adjacency rejected 4 > >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:33.35/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.125 (NODE_F)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:33.36  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y! > DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 4 > >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:33.35/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:38.97  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y' > DECnet event 4.16, adjacency rejected 4 > >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:38.97/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:38.98  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y! > DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 4 > >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:38.97/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.125 (NODE_F)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:44.35  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y' > DECnet event 4.16, adjacency rejected 4 > >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:40.35/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.125 (NODE_F)  > : > %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  25-SEP-2005 19:17:44.36  %%%%%%%%%%%$ > Message from user DECNET on NODE_Y! > DECnet event 4.15, adjacency up 4 > >From node 1.213 (NODE_Y), 25-SEP-2005 19:17:40.35/ > Circuit SVA-0, Adjacent node = 1.218 (NODE_X)  >    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.543 ************************