1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 30 Sep 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 545       Contents:0 Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?0 Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?0 Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?0 Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?0 Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?0 Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?0 Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?) Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine? ) Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine? 4 Re: freeware openVMS plugin for Microsoft Virtual PC HP : Moving forward  Re: HP : Moving forward  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: HP's strategy explained :  Re: Jump to console ?  Re: Jump to console ? 6 Re: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Multiple X servers?  Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius Re: SC008/Star Couplers. Re: see anybody you know? $ Thought you would enjoy this posting( Re: Thought you would enjoy this posting Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! RE: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Time to produce EV79s! Re: Vamp Hacked! Re: Vamp Hacked! Re: Vamp Hacked! Re: Vamp Hacked!6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 RE: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?6 Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?E Re: [OpenVMS V7.3-2] SYSGEN> SHOW EXPECTED_VOTES vs SDA> SHOW CLUSTER 4 Re: [Q] DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 11:41:28 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? C Message-ID: <1128019288.034204.317680@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Colin Butcher wrote:L > Have you got a copy of that node's system disc restored to another box andE > inadvertently they're on the same network? If so then you'll have a    No.   L > duplicate MAC address (and DECnet Phase IV address). It's conceivable thatH > there are odd timing effects within your VLAN (or extended VLAN acrossL > multiple sites) that have somehow allowed them both to come up at the same > time.   B It works fine most of the time. I was mostly interested in what itF means for a node to drop itself (as that doesn't make any sense to me)! and why a node would be rejected.    Thanks for your help.    >  > -- >  > Hope this helps, Colin. + > colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk G > It's not mine, but I like this definition: Legacy = stuff that works.    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 12:10:57 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? C Message-ID: <1128021057.836409.152770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Hoff Hoffman wrote: l > In article <1128004369.768012.272660@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > :Hoff Hoffman wrote:o > :> In article <1127938795.354636.197410@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  > ..2 > :>   What is connected onto the SVA-0 port here? > : > > :Other MicroVAX 3100's, mostly model 80's, but 3 model 95's. > ? >   You're using the integrated NIC on the MicroVAX 3100, then. = >   (There are various pieces of hardware that use the DECnet  >   SVA interface.)  > B >   As for the question, I was refering to the controller hardwareD >   and the hardware immediately hanging off the controller, as wellA >   as any bridges, switches, hubs, repeaters or terminators that  >   might be in use here.   F We have a 10 Base - T transceiver (IEEE 802.3) attached to the networkF port on the back of the MicroVAX. Some of them have redundancy. That'sE here in NYC. I assume it's pretty much the same in London (I've never C been there and no one is there right now to help me answer any such  questions.)   E The cable in the transceiver goes to a Cisco switch. This is true for  both NYC and London systems.  D I hope this answers your questions. Sorry, but this is my weak area.  F > :>   Is this box an end-node, a level one router, or an area router? > :  > :NODE_X is a router  > = >   Is there more than one circuit connection on these hosts? ? >   (On a MicroVAX 3100 series box, that would be comparatively 1 >   unusual -- but there are ways to achieve it.)   D Multiple physical circuits? Only with the redundancy transceivers inA which case there are there two cables going to separate switches.    $ NCP SHOW KNOWN CIRC     9 Known Circuit Volatile Summary as of 29-SEP-2005 18:44:41   A    Circuit          State                   Loopback     Adjacent D                                               Name      Routing Node  C   DNIP-0-0          on                                1.aaa (XXXX5) D   SVA-0             on                                1.bbb (NODE_F)D   SVA-0                                               1.ccc (xxxxx7)D   SVA-0                                               1.ddd (xxxxx8)    D Node 1.aaa is in NYC. The others are all in London on the same VLAN.  ! > :These are on a VLAN in London.  > F >   So there is some comparatively unusual hardware within the network4 >   here -- these systems are not locally connected.  B They are probably all connected to the same pair of Cisco switchesD (assuming they have the redundancy transceivers). I login in to them= via telnet from NYC. All of the affected nodes are in London.   I > :We have 2 DNIP tunnels, one from NYC to London and another from NYC to < > :Hong Kong. NODE_X is one end of the NYC to London tunnel. > D >   So there could easily be a problem within the connection between >   the hosts.  C The DNIP tunnels are needed *only* for DECnet connectivity from one F city to another (overseas, actually -- the cities are NYC, London, andD Hong Kong). All the affected systems are in London and in no way use8 DNIP to send and receive DECnet packets from each other.   > E >   Are the VLAN devices (bridges or routers, I assume) reporting any  >   connectivity errors?  0 I'm waiting to hear back from the network group.  D But suppose there were connectivity errors. Could that have caused aE node to drop itself? What does it mean for a node to drop itself? And 4 why would a node reject another (garbled password?)?   > A > :>   Does this box have more than one network connection to the 3 > :>   same or to the same bridged network segment?  > D >   I'll repeat: does this box have more than one network connection? >   to the same or to the same bridged network segment?  DECnet D >   Phase IV does not like that, and will generate errors -- usuallyC >   IVADDR invalid media address errors IIRC, but things can and do / >   get strange when the node can "see" itself.   B I don't think so. The only case of more than one is the redundancyC transceivers. NOTE: This system works fine the vast majority of the A time. I was mostly interested in what it means for a node to drop ? itself. How can a node drop itself? And the same for rejection.    > H > :>   What versions of DECnet and OpenVMS (and ECOs) are involved here? > :  > :NODE_F: VMS 6.1 > :NODE_X: VMS 6.2 > :NODE_Y: VMS 6.1 > ; >   Old, obviously.  No hope of upgrades or ECOs, I assume.   F Well, yes and no. I am planning to upgrade the 6.1 systems to 6.2, butF I want to assemble a fully patched system disk and test our app on it.C The existing 6.2 systems are running with zero or very few patches. @ When they were set up I was told to not put patches on them. TheE problem with upgrades is that I have 34 systems on line. That's a lot ' of work! And most of them are overseas.    > F > ::>   Network cabling problems (cable shorts, too little or too muchG > ::>   termination on ThinWire or thick wire, etc) and controller (and G > ::>   the transceiver, for those NICs that use one) hardware problems + > ::>   can cause DECnet circuits to yo-yo.  > :: > ::I > ::Well, most of the time things are fine. I was curious, however, how a I > ::node can drop itself?! There may be some off-hours work being done in I > ::our London data center (I'm located in NYC) as they are preparing for ) > ::relocation to another site in London.  > E >   When the network connection becomes unstable due to faults within D >   the cabling, the VLAN (in this case), or a hardware problem, the$ >   host can and will report errors. > C >   Messing about within a network can most certainly trigger these E >   errors -- this is why I have been asking about connectivity here.     ! So it could be a bad transceiver?   - Thanks again for your help and your patience.    Bonus question:   F I was asked if I could have 2 NIC cards on the MicroVAX. This would be? in case we decide to chuck the tape drives (well, save them for D restores) and do backups via NetBackup over the network. They want aB primary network connected and the backup network connected to eachE MicroVAX that needs to be backed up. But we might try it even if it's B not possible, as the backups are relatively small (compared to our other non-VAX systems).   
 Thanks again.    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 13:01:40 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? B Message-ID: <1128021597.662304.86600@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  
 AEF wrote: > Hoff Hoffman wrote: n > > In article <1128004369.768012.272660@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > > :Hoff Hoffman wrote:q > > :> In article <1127938795.354636.197410@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  [...] J > > :>   What versions of DECnet and OpenVMS (and ECOs) are involved here? > > :  > > :NODE_F: VMS 6.1 > > :NODE_X: VMS 6.2 > > :NODE_Y: VMS 6.1 > > = > >   Old, obviously.  No hope of upgrades or ECOs, I assume.  > H > Well, yes and no. I am planning to upgrade the 6.1 systems to 6.2, butH > I want to assemble a fully patched system disk and test our app on it.E > The existing 6.2 systems are running with zero or very few patches. B > When they were set up I was told to not put patches on them. TheG > problem with upgrades is that I have 34 systems on line. That's a lot ) > of work! And most of them are overseas.   3 Sorry to reply to myself, but I must clear this up:   @ The current VMS 6.2 nodes (no or few ECO's!) are all running theD applications "update node" software, which is very small compared toE the "market node" software. (These update nodes are "satellite nodes" B as far as the app is concerned. The front end software connects toG these update nodes.) We tested it and it works fine. But to upgrade the C market nodes (all of which are currently running VMS 6.1) I want to F create a fully-patched system disk. I have not yet finished this task.E Once I finish it, I will try to run the app on it and see if anything E breaks. I think it will be fine, actually, but I know the app doesn't 5 run on VMS 5.5-2, for example. So there could be some E yet-to-be-discovered dependencies, but I think the app uses something = that VMS 5.5-2 doesn't have. Anyway, I want to test it first.    [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:00:47 +0200 & From: "H Vlems" <nospam@what.ever.com>9 Subject: Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? ; Message-ID: <da6d$433c5783$513b9a2c$15406@news.versatel.nl>   1 "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht = news:1128004522.682818.200010@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  >  > H Vlems wrote:G > > This kind of up/down pattern is what you got when heartbeat was not F > > enabled on a transceiver when it was needed (or vice versa). SVA-0E > > indicates a microVAX or VAXstation 3100 kind of system. It wasn't I > > fitted with an external transceiver, was it? These older systems have  > : > Yes. All my MicroVAX systems have external transceivers. > H > > AUI and thinwire, no support for UTP; an external transceiver solvesK > > that problem but the heartbeat switch (or SEQ or squelch) may be in the  > > wrong position.  > >  > > Two other possibilities:H > > - the system is on an ethernet segment with a *lot* of traffic (LAVc3 > > clusters, lots of ethertalk or netbeui clients)  > $ > It was off hours, so probably not. > K > > - the system was accidentally converted from an endnode to a router and 1 > > does not have the appropriate DECnet license.  > F > Licenses are okay. This is the first time I've ever seen a node that- > dropped itself! How can a node drop itself?   < Well, the most common is a license mismatch, like it or not.H Why don't you post the output of this command, executed on the node that drops + itself and one of the others that are fine:    $ MC NCP SHO EXEC CHAR  K You did mention that your systems have external transceivers. I assume that  you've checked the6 heartbeat switch and found it in the correct position.L Second assumption: these UTP transceivers run in one mode only: 10 Mb/s half duplex. I What kind of network device do they connect to and is that network device  configured forJ 10 Mb/s hd operation? If it is set to autonegotiate then you might want to override that.   > 	 > Thanks.  > >  > > Hans >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:37:54 GMT A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> 9 Subject: Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? > Message-ID: <S8Z_e.118206$G8.14932@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>  K When you talk of "redundancy transceivers" - what make are they? How do the I transceivers make a decision to flip over which path they talk over - and I back again? How are the switches the transceivers connect to connected to J the rest of the network? Are they interconnected? Do they have any specialG attributes to handle the path changes? Have you made any changes to the L DECnet timers etc. to accommodate the lower layer doing path switching? WhatJ else has changed in the network that may have introduced additional delays- and latency to that path switch-over process?   L Chipcom Online used to make such transceivers which work in conjunction withL a special central pair of repeaters (usually star-wired  to the transceivers and inter-linked).  K You've read the DECnet Phase IV functional specifications to help determine 0 exactly what the errors you're seeing relate to?   --     Hope this helps, Colin. ) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk E It's not mine, but I like this definition: Legacy = stuff that works.    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 16:54:52 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? C Message-ID: <1128038092.084687.296160@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    H Vlems wrote:3 > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht ? > news:1128004522.682818.200010@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  > >  > > H Vlems wrote:I > > > This kind of up/down pattern is what you got when heartbeat was not H > > > enabled on a transceiver when it was needed (or vice versa). SVA-0G > > > indicates a microVAX or VAXstation 3100 kind of system. It wasn't K > > > fitted with an external transceiver, was it? These older systems have  > > < > > Yes. All my MicroVAX systems have external transceivers. > > J > > > AUI and thinwire, no support for UTP; an external transceiver solvesM > > > that problem but the heartbeat switch (or SEQ or squelch) may be in the  > > > wrong position.  > > >  > > > Two other possibilities:J > > > - the system is on an ethernet segment with a *lot* of traffic (LAVc5 > > > clusters, lots of ethertalk or netbeui clients)  > > & > > It was off hours, so probably not. > > M > > > - the system was accidentally converted from an endnode to a router and 3 > > > does not have the appropriate DECnet license.  > > H > > Licenses are okay. This is the first time I've ever seen a node that/ > > dropped itself! How can a node drop itself?  > > > Well, the most common is a license mismatch, like it or not.J > Why don't you post the output of this command, executed on the node that > drops - > itself and one of the others that are fine:  >  > $ MC NCP SHO EXEC CHAR  D All are working "fine" 99% of the time. We are now entering a periodG where problems are cropping up, so I don't see what licenses have to do E with it. I tried the above command on a few nodes and it always comes C out the same except some say non-routing and some say routing. I'll  post a few tomorrow.   > M > You did mention that your systems have external transceivers. I assume that  > you've checked the8 > heartbeat switch and found it in the correct position.   What heartbeat switch?  N > Second assumption: these UTP transceivers run in one mode only: 10 Mb/s half	 > duplex. K > What kind of network device do they connect to and is that network device  > configured for > 10 Mb/s hd operation?   D They connect to a Cisco Switch. 10Mb/s? I'll have to check tomorrow.  4 If it is set to autonegotiate then you might want to > override that. >    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 17:04:21 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>9 Subject: Re: DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? C Message-ID: <1128038661.000864.318450@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Colin Butcher wrote:M > When you talk of "redundancy transceivers" - what make are they? How do the   < I'll check tomorrow. I'm at home and can't look at them now.  K > transceivers make a decision to flip over which path they talk over - and K > back again? How are the switches the transceivers connect to connected to   
 I don't know.    > the rest of the network?  % They are plugged into Cisco switches.    > Are they interconnected?  E There are two jacks on one side of the transceiver. A cable from each @ of these two jacks goes to a jack on each of two Cisco switches.   Do they have any special( > attributes to handle the path changes?   I'm not aware of any.     Have you made any changes to theI > DECnet timers etc. to accommodate the lower layer doing path switching?   C No. AFAICT we are running with default DECnet values except for the 6 maximum no. of links which we set to 256 on all nodes.    What L > else has changed in the network that may have introduced additional delays/ > and latency to that path switch-over process?   D London is preparing for a move to a new data center. We haven't been/ kept totally up to date on what they are doing.   N > Chipcom Online used to make such transceivers which work in conjunction withN > a special central pair of repeaters (usually star-wired  to the transceivers > and inter-linked). > M > You've read the DECnet Phase IV functional specifications to help determine 2 > exactly what the errors you're seeing relate to?  6 Nope. I'm not an expert on the network side of things.  G Please keep in mind that these systems are currently working fine. This E was only a problem for about 1 minute on a recent Sunday evening (see B original post, times are UTC (GMT)). There are no end users on the system then.  D Mostly I just wanted to know what it means that a node drops itself.E How can it do that? What does it mean independent of the structure of G my network? In particular, could it mean that the transceiver itself is E going bad? If that's a possiblity, I need to replace it -- especially F since this node (NODE_X) is one end of the DNIP tunnel to our New York City VAX systems.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:58:30 +0000 (UTC) . From: klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)2 Subject: Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine?- Message-ID: <dhhrim$6k$1@newslocal.mitre.org>    kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes in article <EVyNY+mppL9T@eisner.encompasserve.org> dated 28 Sep 2005 14:12:27 -0500:J >How can I force an interactive session on my system into a "disconnected" >state.   H I'm not sure you need to.  Can't you use the CONNECT command to grab it,9 regardless of whether VMS knows it's disconnected or not?   H It's been a long time since I used a VTA, I apologize if I'm remembering wrong.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 19:59:02 -05002 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)2 Subject: Re: DISCONNECT a process other than mine?3 Message-ID: <6MOoVv$m$GV$@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <dhhrim$6k$1@newslocal.mitre.org>, klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) writes:J > I'm not sure you need to.  Can't you use the CONNECT command to grab it,; > regardless of whether VMS knows it's disconnected or not?    From HELP CONNECT...  @      You must connect to a virtual terminal that is connected toA      a process with your user identification code (UIC). NO OTHER A      PHYSICAL TERMINALS MAY BE CONNECTED TO THE VIRTUAL TERMINAL.    --  O   Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< E Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  I         We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution, K         and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom and '         the security of all Americans.     ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 01:32:06 -0400 4 From: "Mister Scary" <daniel_newhouse@earthlink.net>= Subject: Re: freeware openVMS plugin for Microsoft Virtual PC 8 Message-ID: <v34%e.5584$ST1.3275@bignews4.bellsouth.net>  D It's 75 miles.  Does the $30 disk have what I need to run with SimH?  @ "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message % news:4334A816.210548C8@comcast.net...  >  > How close is that to Orlando?  > I > Barring any further weather-related issues, I'll be down there the week = > of 17-Oct. Let me know what you need - I'll bring it along.  >  > --   > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  >  > Coming soon:) > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page     ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 11:08:51 -0700 From: mark_hpq@yahoo.com Subject: HP : Moving forwardC Message-ID: <1128017331.828664.193480@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    HP : Moving forward   > The world's economic, social and environmental problems are soE extensive that challenges will undoubtedly remain for the foreseeable E future. HP's objective is to continually increase our positive impact G through our global citizenship work, while responding to changing needs @ and seeking areas where our investment is most effective. We are? focused on three challenges for the coming three to five years: D addressing electronic waste, raising standards in HP's global supply@ chain and increasing access to information technology. These areE critical issues facing our industry, and we are committed to making a E positive contribution. Although we are pleased with progress to date,  much remains to be done.  3 Please send comments to hp.globalcitizenship@hp.com    Complete document : K http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/gcreport/pdf/gcr_abridged_05.pdf    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:11:13 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>  Subject: Re: HP : Moving forward+ Message-ID: <433C9EC1.16174AD2@comcast.net>    mark_hpq@yahoo.com wrote:  >  > HP : Moving forward  > @ > The world's economic, social and environmental problems are soG > extensive that challenges will undoubtedly remain for the foreseeable G > future. HP's objective is to continually increase our positive impact I > through our global citizenship work, while responding to changing needs B > and seeking areas where our investment is most effective. We areA > focused on three challenges for the coming three to five years: F > addressing electronic waste, raising standards in HP's global supplyB > chain and increasing access to information technology. These areG > critical issues facing our industry, and we are committed to making a G > positive contribution. Although we are pleased with progress to date,  > much remains to be done. > 5 > Please send comments to hp.globalcitizenship@hp.com  >  > Complete document : M > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/gcreport/pdf/gcr_abridged_05.pdf   ! Indeed *MUCH* remains to be done:    1. Market OpenVMS   A VMS is one of HP's highest margin products, yet among the Windows F generation it's practically unknown or considered dead and buried, andG long-time VMS veterans like myself are literally *SCREAMING* to have it ? be marketed against (the software that still makes almost daily D headlines for security issues - I don't actually have to name it, doG I?). Even one of the biggest VMS VARs in the healthcare field tells its B customers that it's moving its middleware to Wintel (is that HIPAA8 compliant?) and leaving only the back-end on VMS/Oracle.  H Since misc.invest.stocks is one of the groups in this cross posting I'llH express that I'm surprised that to date, neither Compaq nor HP were everE called to account for such poor fiduciary stewardship as leaving this @ virtual gold mine of product to rot in ignominity and anonymity.  < After all the remarks about "de-facto standard" systems (theH unenlightened call them "industry standard", but no recognized standardsH group considers them as such), and market dominance and ..., I've yet toH hear a valid explanation for not marketing OpenVMS vigorously and highly& visibly in the mainstream trade media.   2. OpenVMS-x86  H A mentor of mine holds that "you can make money or you can make excuses,D but you can't make both". To date, when asked why 32-bit OpenVMS wasE never successfully ported to IA32 I usually get a lot of rote blather F about the CPU architecture. Didn't seem to stand in Itanic's way. Even Alpha had PALcode.   Two questions:H A. What is the total dollar value of the IA32 software market (operating	 systems)? + B. What is OpenVMS's share of that market?     Need I say more?   3. OpenVMS-x86/64   G Much noise is made on comp.os.vms about every major vendor that gave up H on IA64, especially when Dell entered and then backed out of that market for the second time.  @ It becomes obvious that IA64 will *NEVER* be a de-facto standardE platform (the unenlightened call them "industry standard"). x86-64 is H likely the only true way to ensure OpenVMS's future. *THAT* is where the7 industry is going. *THAT* is where OpenVMS needs to be.   G HP needs to stop making excuses and get busy positioning itself and its  products to make *BIG* money.   F Let's see... Did I mention advertising OpenVMS in the mainstream trade media? Yes, I did.   O.k. I'm done for now then.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:09:43 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :, Message-ID: <433C3BF1.421BB421@teksavvy.com>   Beach Runner wrote: J > Unions have their good and bad, but clearly they have improved the lives. > for the majority of American working people.  E But if the end result is that unions have given workers benefits that = make USA companies uncomopetitive in a global market, is that 
 sustainable ?   1 (You can replace "USA" with any western country).    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:55:39 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :9 Message-ID: <gpZ_e.7449$cq2.864664@news20.bellglobal.com>   6 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message % news:3q25muFcs3ilU2@individual.net...  > 
 > Excuse me??  > 6 >              2005             2004              20037 > US            4.9%             5.4%              6.4% 7 > JAPAN         4.5%             4.7%              5.3%  > I > Difference seems rather insignificant, especially considering they have J > half the population the US has and virtually no immigration (immigrationJ > playing a role in this as it tends to be the un-educated, un-trained and > un-skilled who emigrate).  > I Both Canada and the US publish incorrect unemplyment statistics. In both  K cases the stats are only generated by those people collecting unemployment  I insurance pay outs; when UI runs out the (statistical) problem magically  ) disappears. Hello "Wal-Mart greeter" job.    Neil   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:19:53 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> & Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :9 Message-ID: <ZLZ_e.7468$cq2.868473@news20.bellglobal.com>   3 "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message  ; news:6.1.2.0.2.20050928180257.07caca08@raptor.psccos.com... * > At 05:10 PM 9/28/2005, Neil Rieck wrote: [...snip...] > L > Bulls**t.  I've been in a union (I was forced to be in it to work) when I H > was in college.  It was nothing but a money-grubbing machine from the I > union members - we were forced (required to join to work there) to pay  1 > around 15% of our monthly salary as union dues.  > M > Unions had a place in the early 20th century, but they're outdated now, by  K > and large.  And if you don't think unions can be scandalous, you need to  K > do more research.  The people who run the unions are every bit as "evil"  G > (read: "profit oriented") as any CEO of any company.  They make huge  J > salaries on the backs of worker's "voluntary" contributions, and unlike J > the CEO of a company, they're not beholden to ANYBODY - least of all is L > their concern for how the workers feel about that.  And as much as people L > like to claim how Big Business is in the pockets of the Republican party, I > labor unions are every bit as much (if not more) in the pockets of the  4 > Democratic party - read the lists of contributors. >   K I've never been in a bad union but some are better than others; it is true  L that there are always a few bad apples which will taint the whole thing; on K the flip side it should be pointed out that no one will try to get a union  I into a company where the majority of workers are happy (after all, it is  L something that is based upon democracy; I would aggree with you that unions L should never be allowed to donate money to poltical parties or even suggest & that their members vote a certain way)  M Like wise, you can't judge all levels of corporate management by the few bad  I apples you have met along the way; but when shit hits the fan management  + will stick together tighter than any union.   H The one thing a collective aggreement provides is a uniform way for all L managers to deal with employees (which only needs to be relied on for those L times when you end up working for a real pin-head). I've been in unions for E almost 30 years (except for the 18 months I was insane enough to try  L management); have been on strike 3 times (but never voted to be on strike); E and have never found the need to file a grievance; But I've seen the  L union-system work to protect the job of the odd poor bastard unlucky enough + to be working for a little-Hitler-wanna-be.    > J > No, not taking anything to the extreme; in fact, I've very much enjoyed J > this exchange with you.  I suggest, however, you might add Adam Smith's + > "Wealth of Nations" to your reading list.  >   J I read it in school. He's one of the few economists that make sense but I J don't think he ever advocated greed which is the basis for extreme market M capitalism. Just like extreme socialism (communism) is not desirable, I feel  F that extreme capitalism is just as bad (but in the opposite direction)  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:23:36 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)& Subject: Re: HP's strategy explained :6 Message-ID: <00A4A8A2.FCDD7358@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  V In article <3q25muFcs3ilU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:: >In article <YtJ_e.7026$cq2.778690@news20.bellglobal.com>,- >	"Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:  >>  6 >> "Dan O'Reilly" <dano@process.com> wrote in message > >> news:6.1.2.0.2.20050928180257.07caca08@raptor.psccos.com..., >>> At 05:10 PM 9/28/2005, Neil Rieck wrote: >> [...snip...]  >>> O >>> I remember in the late 80's: the Japanese were going to own America.  They  M >>> made everything cheaper, they had all the money, they *gasp* were buying  H >>> American real estate and American companies.  Where is the Japanese ? >>> economy today?  Pretty much still in the tank.  As are the  I >>> heavily-socialized and government-subsidized economies of France and  M >>> Germany (and to a lesser extent, the UK).  Where's the US economy?  Near  F >>> record growth.  Near record unemployment.  With a better-educated  >>> workforce than ever before.  >>>  >>   >> ##### >>  L >> While the value of the yen has dropped by a factor of 4 from the 80's to M >> now, they have a very high standard of living (which is probably the only  N >> economic indicator that human beings should pay any attention to) and they @ >> have no where near the unemployment figures seen in the USA.  >  >Excuse me?? > 6 >              2005             2004              20036 >US            4.9%             5.4%              6.4%6 >JAPAN         4.5%             4.7%              5.3% > H >Difference seems rather insignificant, especially considering they haveI >half the population the US has and virtually no immigration (immigration I >playing a role in this as it tends to be the un-educated, un-trained and  >un-skilled who emigrate).  L Last I looked, the vast majority of low-skill (and often illegal) immigrantsH came in for off-the-books work, often below minimum wage.  The illegals L probably aren't showing up in unemployment figures, and if they were, they'd be showing up as employed.   -- Alan        >  >  >bill  >  >-- K >Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves E >bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.  >University of Scranton   | B >Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>      ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:48:41 -0400 , From: Carl Friedberg <frida.fried@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Jump to console ?7 Message-ID: <890539d9050929124840bcb5ba@mail.gmail.com>   H I help manage a farm of ES40s. The oldest one was purchased new in 1999.G Within two weeks, before we even had a chance to do any QA on it, field F service made a panic visit, and replaced both CPU boards (and possiblyI the motherboard; I didn't pay much attention). That was followed by about J 10 field service visits, during which the entire machine was replaced 2 orC 3 different times. About 3 years ago, the sysem crashed for the 3rd H time in a year (a horrendous record), and finally engineering determinedF that a fatal race condition, previously only seen in 3 or 4-CPU modelsB of the EV6/500, was indeed reponsible for the crashes. After a fewG months wait for the factory to fab up a couple of EV67/500, the machine 
 settled down.   E Well, that's because it only gets powered off when, for instance, the B entire northeast loses power for 24 hours. August of 2003, we turnB power back on, and eventually have to go through the FSL nonsense.  < At each subsequent power cycle, we have seen that particularB ES40 lose its brains (there have only been 2 in the last 3 years).A As far as I know, you find that you've lost the firmware when you / reboot the machine, after a power on/off cycle.    Carl Friedberg www.comets.com  0 On 9/29/05, Hoff Hoffman <hoff@hp.nospam> wrote:L > In article <1127890959.200632.138260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "Mist=# er Q" <pquodling@gmail.com> writes: G > :This typically means that your SRM Firmware has been corrupted.  you 9 > :will need to reload it, probably from failsafe mode...  > G >   Not the only potential cause, but -- if it is an isolated corrupted G >   SRM console image -- the Failsafe Loader can potentially be an easy  >   fix for it...    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:09:48 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)  Subject: Re: Jump to console ?3 Message-ID: <gn%_e.13528$ZA2.4469@news.cpqcorp.net>   f In article <890539d9050929124840bcb5ba@mail.gmail.com>, Carl Friedberg <frida.fried@gmail.com> writes:= :At each subsequent power cycle, we have seen that particular C :ES40 lose its brains (there have only been 2 in the last 3 years).   B   That's fodder for a hardware service call, to state the obvious.  B :As far as I know, you find that you've lost the firmware when you0 :reboot the machine, after a power on/off cycle.  C   While there are some callbacks into the console firmware from the A   running system, it's the power-cycle operation that re-loads it    from its SROM storage.  @   I'll assume that when the system drops its firmware, it's not B   that the failsafe loader jumper has been left enabled -- I know,=   an obvious question and almost certainly not the case here.     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:42:49 GMT $ From: "Peter" <nospam@earthlink.net>? Subject: Re: Layoffs at HP : MH needs your suggestions or ideas A Message-ID: <JAW_e.5064$oc.2239@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>   Q "Lyck" <lyck@muc.net> wrote in message news:9tydnQpUyd1ugKHeRVn-jQ@comcast.com... " > On 26-Sep-05 15:50, Peter wrote:g > > <mark_hpq@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1127757507.390460.133070@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  > > J > >>you have any ideas or suggestions on how Hewlett-Packard can serve you > >>better,  > > & > > You can start by divesting Compaq. > = > And re-integrating Agilent. I know of a few people there in ? > sales force, who are now working hard of convincing customers  > that "they are the HP"...  >  > > ? > > And then you can rehire the 20,000 Americans who had put in C > > an average of 20 years of service with your company, only to be $ > > discarded like unwanted garbage. > ( > This is as American as America can be.  > Bullshit.  Loyalty and longevity were appreciated and rewarded@ in this country for 200 years, until Reagan's supply-side, steal= from the poor to give to the rich catastrophe, which has been 9 ongoing for 25 years now, and which converted the world's & greatest country into the Evil Empire.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:08:09 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>  Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?3 Message-ID: <tYW_e.13493$rk2.2790@news.cpqcorp.net>   4 "Joe Sewell" <ultrajoe@spamcop.net> wrote in message= news:1128006291.697282.122170@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... F > My site recently got in several dual-head Alpha workstations runningH > OpenVMS, DECwindows/Motif 1.3-1.  (Our software is currently not ratedF > for VMS V8.2 & DW/M 1.5.)  I've got one set up for multiple screens,G > but what I'd like to do is have multiple *displays* (i.e., multiple X A > servers), so if I happen to set a breakpoint in the routine for F > bringing up a popup menu (for example), I can regain control withoutF > going to another machine & killing the process.  The machines have a > single keyboard & mouse. > E > Is this even possible?  What's the "right" way to set this up?  I'm ' > assuming Xinerama wouldn't help here.  >   C The short answer is:  *Each* X11 server instance must have it's own @ graphics display, and a KB and mouse.  If you have a functioning> USB port, it is possible to do this with a few magic commands.? Except for the EV7 based systems, I'm not sure any of the Alpha ? workstations have correctly working USB ports.  You could go to = WalMart and buy a 5-port belkin PCI USB card (which is what I  do on my DS10).   C The design of the input drivers and server interfaces would require  major surgery to change this.    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 13:25:20 -0700) From: "Joe Sewell" <ultrajoe@spamcop.net>   Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?C Message-ID: <1128025520.686712.229100@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    sol gongola wrote: > Joe Sewell wrote: H > > My site recently got in several dual-head Alpha workstations runningJ > > OpenVMS, DECwindows/Motif 1.3-1.  (Our software is currently not ratedH > > for VMS V8.2 & DW/M 1.5.)  I've got one set up for multiple screens,I > > but what I'd like to do is have multiple *displays* (i.e., multiple X C > > servers), so if I happen to set a breakpoint in the routine for H > > bringing up a popup menu (for example), I can regain control withoutH > > going to another machine & killing the process.  The machines have a > > single keyboard & mouse. > > G > > Is this even possible?  What's the "right" way to set this up?  I'm ) > > assuming Xinerama wouldn't help here.  > >  >  > As I understand it: A > Even with only a single display, you can have multiple sessions ? > so that if one session hangs, you should be able to switch to D > another session on the same display to accomplish what you intend. >  > VMS help gives you:  >  > $help set display /screen  >  > SET  >  >    DISPLAY >  >      /SCREEN > " >            /SCREEN=screen-number > J >         Defines the screen to be associated with this display device. InI >         some hardware configurations, the system supports more than one H >         screen. In such a configuration, you can specify the screen to, >         which the application is directed.  B What you're saying is correct, but it misses my point.  Sorry if IE wasn't clear.  I'm not talking about a "session" (whatever that means E -- I'm assuming you mean a program with one or more windows) hanging. A I'm talking about a client grabbing the X server and the debugger - hitting a breakpoint before it gets released.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:36:46 GMT  From: ST <tringali@yahoo.com>   Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?, Message-ID: <yfY_e.10843$WT3.10784@trnddc03>  I An easier way is is get a VNC server running.  Run your debugger outside  I the VNC in the main window on display 0.  Run the target inside the VNC,  9 and run the viewier display 1 (or the same screen, even).   H Your VNC server/viewer doesn't even need to run on the same machine, if  you have trouble compiling it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:19:04 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?, Message-ID: <433C5A3A.DED35101@teksavvy.com>   Joe Sewell wrote: C > I'm talking about a client grabbing the X server and the debugger / > hitting a breakpoint before it gets released.     > Short answer: don't set breakpoints in the wrong place :-) ;-)  E Your best bet would probably have a separate X terminal for that. Get H the debug display to go to the x terminal while your run your app on the worstation's "terminal".  A Another possibility would be to run debug from a real VT terminal  attached to a serial line.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:11:44 +0000 (UTC) . From: klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)  Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?- Message-ID: <dhhsbg$6k$2@newslocal.mitre.org>    "Joe Sewell" <ultrajoe@spamcop.net> writes in article <1128025520.686712.229100@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> dated 29 Sep 2005 13:25:20 -0700: C >What you're saying is correct, but it misses my point.  Sorry if I F >wasn't clear.  I'm not talking about a "session" (whatever that meansF >-- I'm assuming you mean a program with one or more windows) hanging.B >I'm talking about a client grabbing the X server and the debugger. >hitting a breakpoint before it gets released.  H That sounds weird.  The X server runs as a separate process, doesn't it?2 A breakpoint in the app process shouldn't hang it.  K It could be a problem with the LOCAL transport.  I have faced such problems F before, and my solution in some cases was to use /TRANSPORT=TCPIP even1 though I'm on the console.  Worth a try, I think.   0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 16:11:01 -0700% From: nojunk@gate.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br   Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?C Message-ID: <1128035461.636557.278680@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   - Xnest can provide the functionality you want.    --- Casantos   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:47:42 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>  Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?3 Message-ID: <y2%_e.13527$dC2.7676@news.cpqcorp.net>   * "ST" <tringali@yahoo.com> wrote in message& news:yfY_e.10843$WT3.10784@trnddc03...J > An easier way is is get a VNC server running.  Run your debugger outsideJ > the VNC in the main window on display 0.  Run the target inside the VNC,; > and run the viewier display 1 (or the same screen, even).  > I > Your VNC server/viewer doesn't even need to run on the same machine, if   > you have trouble compiling it.  J I don't know of a VNC *server* for VMS, I know there is a VNC *client* for VMS.  K But it doesn't help him.  He wants to not have the interactive issues of an K active X11 application (be it the debugger, or VNC) on the same X11 server. B This can be an issue, because simply changing focus can change the( state of the application being debugged.    The alternatives that I see are:  C     - Don't use the DECwindows debugger, and plug in  a terminal or 6       a PC with a terminal emulator (or X11 emulator).  !     - Use another X11 workstation   F     - Figure out how to get a USB PCI card onto the system so that youC       can get a second KB and Mouse - in which case you can run the H       system dual seat with a server for each head.kb.mouse combination.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:49:18 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?, Message-ID: <433C7D65.181A5F0B@teksavvy.com>   "Keith A. Lewis" wrote: J > That sounds weird.  The X server runs as a separate process, doesn't it?4 > A breakpoint in the app process shouldn't hang it.  H Consider a condition where the app sends a request to the X server, thenF breakpoints. X server receives request and processes it and then sends? acknowledgement, but because app is hung because of breakpoint, E acknowledgement never completes and X server wait for it to complete.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:41:02 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>  Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?4 Message-ID: <yQ%_e.13534$eZ1.13048@news.cpqcorp.net>  H I'll bite.  I know kind of what it is, how does it solve it?  And do you know of a VMS implementation?  2 <nojunk@gate.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br> wrote in message= news:1128035461.636557.278680@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... / > Xnest can provide the functionality you want.  >  > --- Casantos >    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:39:26 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>  Subject: Re: Multiple X servers?2 Message-ID: <2P%_e.13533$vr2.619@news.cpqcorp.net>  ; "Keith A. Lewis" <klewis@LUMINA.MITRE.ORG> wrote in message ' news:dhhsbg$6k$2@newslocal.mitre.org... 7 > "Joe Sewell" <ultrajoe@spamcop.net> writes in article I <1128025520.686712.229100@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> dated 29 Sep 2005  13:25:20 -0700: E > >What you're saying is correct, but it misses my point.  Sorry if I H > >wasn't clear.  I'm not talking about a "session" (whatever that meansH > >-- I'm assuming you mean a program with one or more windows) hanging.D > >I'm talking about a client grabbing the X server and the debugger0 > >hitting a breakpoint before it gets released. > J > That sounds weird.  The X server runs as a separate process, doesn't it?4 > A breakpoint in the app process shouldn't hang it. >   & Ah, but X11 is a deadlocking protocol!  F The only way ot gets away with it is by the clients behaving.  If theyL don't, the server will eventually severe the connection to break a deadlock.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:28:37 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>' Subject: Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius + Message-ID: <433CA2D5.E7123A88@comcast.net>   	 GM wrote:  >  > I did it...... >  > It work..... >  > Holy Shite...... >  > Got Debian netinst CD  > ? > Used my Gentoo milo floppy....did a quick draw cd change when , > rebooting.......and it installed debian... >  > wow  >  > now I'm back to this >  > #  >  > well......actually this  > debian:~#  >   > but hey.......better than BSOD > 0 > Now I gotta figure out how to install a GUI...  ( Are you sure it isn't already installed?  " Does it respond to a command like:   # dwm    ...or...   # xstart   ...?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 19:57:24 -0700' From: "toby" <toby@telegraphics.com.au> ' Subject: Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius C Message-ID: <1128049044.596419.171610@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > GM wrote:  > > ... 2 > > Now I gotta figure out how to install a GUI... > * > Are you sure it isn't already installed? > $ > Does it respond to a command like: >  > # dwm  > 
 > ...or... > 
 > # xstart  2 Or "xdm", "gdm", or "startx", or even "telinit 5".   --T    >  > ...? >  > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  >  > Coming soon:( > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 19:56:35 -0700' From: "toby" <toby@telegraphics.com.au> ' Subject: Re: Pete My Boy...yer a Genius C Message-ID: <1128048995.417973.260130@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > GM wrote:  > > ... 2 > > Now I gotta figure out how to install a GUI... > * > Are you sure it isn't already installed? > $ > Does it respond to a command like: >  > # dwm  > 
 > ...or... > 
 > # xstart   Or "xdm", "gdm", or "startx".    --T    >  > ...? >  > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  >  > Coming soon:( > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 29 Sep 05 14:50:04 EDT) From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) ! Subject: Re: SC008/Star Couplers. ! Message-ID: <cybyx5sYuZeb@wvnvms>   g In article <BbV_e.13469$ck2.3632@news.cpqcorp.net>, Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> writes:  > Leigh wrote:E >> These HSJ's are a 40 and a 40C but they only appear to have one CI $ >> connector comprising four "pins". > K > Sorry. I was thinking of the later HSJ80 model, which has 2 CI ports per  < > controller, and was the model I worked with most recently. > F >> Looking through some old docs I've found issues like the HSJ's haveI >> MAX_NODES (8,16,32) and MAX_HOSTS (number of CIPCA/CIXCD) cards on the  >> cluster.  > I > The settings for maximum number of CI IDs on a star coupler should all  H > match on both the VMS and controller sides. This affects arbitration. ? > It's OK if both are set to 16 even on an 8-node star coupler.  > G > There is a VMS SYSGEN parameter PAMAXPOLL which is the highest CI ID  H > number which VMS will poll for (and thus discover). The default value G > for this parameter on VMS is 32, actually one more than it should be  J > since 31 is the maximum possible CI ID number (and to do that takes two H > of the rare-as-hen's teeth CISCE (CI Star Coupler Extension) modules). > F >> Also the host cards should be low numbers and the HSJ high numbers. > F > Advice on this varied over time. While I was doing this in the late J > '90s, the counsel was to put HSJs at low IDs and hosts at high IDs. For D > your small configuration, at low load levels, it shouldn't matter. > C >> Does the VAX/CIXCD or the HSC90 have a similar process where the H >> numbers of nodes is defined manually or will it poll the star coupler >> at start up?  > J > CI adapters typically had DIP switches setting the maximum number of CI K > nodes on the star coupler at either 16 or 32 nodes. I don't remember how  ! > this was set on the HSC series.   H The HSC CI port module DIP switches set both the CI node address and theH max number of nodes (16 or 32).  The maximum node number the HSC CI willE actually poll can be set with the command "SET POLLER HIGH n" where n D defaults to 31.  This setting and the VMS SYSGEN parameter PAMAXPOLLE can safely be left set to their defaults (unless you need the maximum " possible performance from the CI).     George Cook  WVNET    ------------------------------   Date: 29 Sep 2005 18:10:23 GMT$ From: "Doc." <Doc@openvms-rocks.com>" Subject: Re: see anybody you know?7 Message-ID: <Xns96E0CD38EA32FDCovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   D John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote in news:VXT_e.13455$o12.11333 @news.cpqcorp.net:   > Then go check out  > - > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/   = Like VAXman, I've seen this one before, still good though. :)      Doc.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 01:17:38 GMT 2 From: "William Hymen" <t18_pilot@hotmail.spam.com>- Subject: Thought you would enjoy this posting A Message-ID: <Sm0%e.7020$q1.4543@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>   , I found this posting on a Windoze newsgroup./ (should I have just told him to switch to VMS?)    Cheers     ----- Original Message ------ From: "Tuna" <Tuna@discussions.microsoft.com> 5 Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.server.scripting , Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 10:04 PM Subject: Make filenames unique?     L How would I go about appending a 3 or 4 digit sequential number to all files! added to a series of directories?   E What I am trying to avoid is having modified files overwrite previous L versions. One pice of software we use already does that, but only the outputE names are changed, not the input filenames. This has become a problem  because I I have introduced a second process that is looking for the original names  and 3 has no way to know about the modified output names.   G For instance, if a user copied the the file "demo_file.txt" in a folder G called "D:\test" the actual result would be "D:\test\demo_file_001.txt"  Then, F if they were make a change to the original file and copy it over to be; processed, the result would be ""D:\test\demo_file_002.txt"    Does this make any sense?   K What strikes me a potentially difficult is the fact that I'd like to rename K the files as they're copied to 3 drives, each containing as many as a dozen J sub-directories. The process would work the best if ALL files were renamed5 sequentially, regardless of where the were copied to.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:14:45 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>1 Subject: Re: Thought you would enjoy this posting + Message-ID: <433C9F95.11E68115@comcast.net>    William Hymen wrote: > . > I found this posting on a Windoze newsgroup.1 > (should I have just told him to switch to VMS?)  >  > Cheers  " ...or just direct him to this URL:. http://www.djesys.com/vms/mentor/vms_path.html   > ----- Original Message -----/ > From: "Tuna" <Tuna@discussions.microsoft.com> 7 > Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.server.scripting . > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 10:04 PM! > Subject: Make filenames unique?  > N > How would I go about appending a 3 or 4 digit sequential number to all files# > added to a series of directories?  > G > What I am trying to avoid is having modified files overwrite previous N > versions. One pice of software we use already does that, but only the outputG > names are changed, not the input filenames. This has become a problem 	 > because K > I have introduced a second process that is looking for the original names  > and 5 > has no way to know about the modified output names.  > I > For instance, if a user copied the the file "demo_file.txt" in a folder I > called "D:\test" the actual result would be "D:\test\demo_file_001.txt"  > Then, H > if they were make a change to the original file and copy it over to be= > processed, the result would be ""D:\test\demo_file_002.txt"  >  > Does this make any sense?  > M > What strikes me a potentially difficult is the fact that I'd like to rename M > the files as they're copied to 3 drives, each containing as many as a dozen L > sub-directories. The process would work the best if ALL files were renamed7 > sequentially, regardless of where the were copied to.      --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:21:00 GMT 6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com># Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! < Message-ID: <ggW_e.15528$ua.562282@twister.southeast.rr.com>  ' <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message  < news:1128014087.925872.95360@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...C > time to answer the question that why would anyone with a superior D > operating system and a superior cpu cancel one for an inferior cpu@ > and not position and market its superior os to achieve maximumF > market share and profit?  Name calling just reinforces the fact that< > you can not or will not address the question logically ...    M It's all about marketing.  If people don't know the product is available and   it's quality they don't buy it.   L For example, if the press hadn't started writing about Linux it wouldn't be L as popular as it is now.  Microsoft is has superb marketing, sure they have M some good products but their server OSes aren't one of them.  They were able  K to get their product on practically every desktop and familiarity got them  8 into the datacenter.  It has nothing to do with quality.     Ken   % _____________________________________  Kenneth Farmer <>< 336-736-7376 3 www.OpenVMS.org | dba.OpenVMS.org | dcl.OpenVMS.org  HP OpenVMS News and Info   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:51:17 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> # Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! + Message-ID: <433C37A4.E3C2B62@teksavvy.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:C > And will you indemnify them against anything they might owe Intel 8 > for reneging on their agreement to switch to Itanium ?    E HP extended Pa-Risc DEVELOPMENT and sales. Pa-Risc is sill being sold H with no end-of-sales announced. HP has ported VMS to that IA64 thing andH is selling it on it. HP is not marketing VMS on IA64. HP has ended AlphaG development and donated the IP to Intel so that Intel can include it in  its own products.    What more can Intel want ?  F HP's primary focus should be on making products customers want. (WhichF generates profits which go to shareholders). Having a primary focus of& pleasing Intel and Microsoft is WRONG.  H Having a primary focus of justifying IA64 instead of finding the ways to+ make VMS more succesfull and grow is WRONG.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:25:06 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> # Subject: RE: Time to produce EV79s! R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB70BF99@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]=20 " > Sent: September 29, 2005 2:51 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com % > Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s!  >=20 > Larry Kilgallen wrote:E > > And will you indemnify them against anything they might owe Intel : > > for reneging on their agreement to switch to Itanium ? >=20 >=20G > HP extended Pa-Risc DEVELOPMENT and sales. Pa-Risc is sill being sold > > with no end-of-sales announced. HP has ported VMS to that=20 > IA64 thing andA > is selling it on it. HP is not marketing VMS on IA64. HP has=20 
 > ended Alpha > > development and donated the IP to Intel so that Intel can=20 > include it in  > its own products.  >=20  	 [snip...]   H HP has not "extended" PA-RISC. The 8900 has been announced as the end of the line for that processor.  
 Reference:2 http://www.hp.com/products1/servers/direction.html= "HP is committed to HP 9000 server customers. With the recent G introduction of the PA-8900 processor, HP completes the successful line F of PA-RISC processors and provides an enhanced springboard for HP 9000 to HP Integrity evolution."    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:37:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> # Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! , Message-ID: <433C5E80.CF9B12E2@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:J > HP has not "extended" PA-RISC. The 8900 has been announced as the end of > the line for that processor.  F Originally, this chip was not planned. When IA64 was so late and slow,G HP announced the 8900 to bridge the gap. It has just now been released.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:29:22 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)# Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! 6 Message-ID: <00A4A8A3.CB35E5E6@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  _ In article <1127997743.746414.315550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes:   G >Bill Gates and oracle are the ones trying to keep vms off the x86 boat ? >anchor because they know the day that happens, they are toast!   J Why does Larry Ellison care whether VMS runs on X86?  If VMS became big onJ x86 boxes, he'd happily sell Oracle (and Rdb) on those boxes, and be happy' not to have to compete with SQL/Server.   O Meantime, the day VMS is released on x86, with no Office or Office-equivalents, B is the day Microsoft doesn't even notice a blip in their earnings.  J (Coordinate an up-to-date VMS port of OpenOffice with the release and thenM VMS-on-PC begins to approach being the same kind of threat xBSD is to Windows N on the desktop - barely noticeable.  But without that, plus an easy-to-run andI up-to-date version on Samba, VMS-on-x86 is only interesting in the server  space.)    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:45:10 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> # Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! , Message-ID: <433C98A5.5F9A29F5@teksavvy.com>  , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:Q > Meantime, the day VMS is released on x86, with no Office or Office-equivalents, D > is the day Microsoft doesn't even notice a blip in their earnings.  E Apple is also a just a tiny blip on Microsoft,s books, but it doesn't 0 prevent Apple from growing and being profitable.  F It doesn't matter that VMS would be just a small blip. It matters thatF VMS on the 8086 would have far greater potential for sales/growth thanI on a sinking IA64 brick with no market momentum and terrible media image.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:18:55 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net># Subject: Re: Time to produce EV79s! + Message-ID: <433CA08F.A37A60FF@comcast.net>   , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: > a > In article <1127997743.746414.315550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes:  > I > >Bill Gates and oracle are the ones trying to keep vms off the x86 boat A > >anchor because they know the day that happens, they are toast!  > L > Why does Larry Ellison care whether VMS runs on X86?  If VMS became big onL > x86 boxes, he'd happily sell Oracle (and Rdb) on those boxes, and be happy) > not to have to compete with SQL/Server.  > Q > Meantime, the day VMS is released on x86, with no Office or Office-equivalents, D > is the day Microsoft doesn't even notice a blip in their earnings. > L > (Coordinate an up-to-date VMS port of OpenOffice with the release and thenO > VMS-on-PC begins to approach being the same kind of threat xBSD is to Windows P > on the desktop - barely noticeable.  But without that, plus an easy-to-run andK > up-to-date version on Samba, VMS-on-x86 is only interesting in the server 	 > space.)   : ...which is fine. Because that's an important place, also.  C Much noise is made about "choice". Well, right now, the choices are F between many "evils", and even in VMS-land, as "issinoho" has recentlyH witnessed, even the most secure o.s. is powerless against hacks when the app.'s are security sieves.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 13:06:17 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: Vamp Hacked! 3 Message-ID: <QTHKzjEvXDBr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <11jnn8dbv114pdc@corp.supernews.com>, "issinoho" <issinoho@gmail.com> writes: > = > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message  / > news:RNxkCKGwj88x@eisner.encompasserve.org... ? >> In article <11jnlqpcd9j2l79@corp.supernews.com>, "issinoho"   >> <issinoho@gmail.com> writes:  >>H >>> As to the latter, a combination of MySQL and Apache logs revealed a  >>> scriptedM >>> attack at 19:33 on the 27th which exploited a vulnerability in phpBB (the G >>> bulletin board system the site is using) to gain Admin access. The   >>> version N >>> of phpBB being used by VAMP (2.0.11) was a little aged and I had been lax  >>> in2 >>> keeping it patched so maybe I had this coming! >>E >> Hindsight is wonderful, but it is better to rely on authentication G >> mechanisms within (or mediated by) VMS rather than applications that H >> roll their own.  On current Alpha versions (not VAX) your application@ >> can call the $ACM system service for authentication purposes. >>C >> If you need services not native to VMS, like smart card support, C >> you can attach those to the other end of the VMS ACME mechanism. F >> Doing this is harder to program that simply slapping authenticationE >> into an application because there is less flexibility.  That means G >> better security through a disciplined interface that has seen review % >> and includes breakin evasion, etc.  > M > All noted. Although as this is by definition an anonymous public resource,  A > it makes nailing things down like you suggest somewhat tricky.    G If Administrative Access is supposed to be anonymous, there is no hope.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:50:33 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Vamp Hacked! + Message-ID: <433C99E8.DE91FB83@comcast.net>    issinoho wrote:  > 2 > "issinoho" <issinoho@gmail.com> wrote in message, > news:11jnlqpcd9j2l79@corp.supernews.com...H > > My OpenVMS hosted website (http://www.issinoho.com:8080/phpbb2/) wasF > > hacked on Tuesday and the posts were all deleted and replaced by a > > hacker's signature.  > > M > > I've spent most of the time since, (a) restoring the data - mostly there, N > > still looking to see if I can recover the rest from my nightly backup, and2 > > (b) trying to find out what the hell happened. > > G > > As to the latter, a combination of MySQL and Apache logs revealed a K > > scripted attack at 19:33 on the 27th which exploited a vulnerability in M > > phpBB (the bulletin board system the site is using) to gain Admin access. L > > The version of phpBB being used by VAMP (2.0.11) was a little aged and IB > > had been lax in keeping it patched so maybe I had this coming! > > > > > For the full skinny on the attack method take a look here,@ > > http://www.frsirt.com/english/advisories/2005/0212 and here,> > > http://www.frsirt.com/exploits/20050314.phpbbexp.cpp.php . > > L > > I've now (obviously) patched phpBB to the latest version and VAMP is nowM > > back up & running again. Apologies if you've lost posts or your account - , > > I'm still working on getting these back. > > M > > A scan of all relevant accounting and event logs has satisfied me that no I > > compromise was made at an Operating System level - not that I had any  > > doubts.  > > N > > So, a word of warning if you are running phpBB (on any system) - make sure* > > you're running at least version 2.0.13 > >  > K > Please note that all user accounts have been successfully restored to the  > running version of VAMP.  C I guess the lesson here is that even the most unhackable o.s. can't / prevent applications from having weak security.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 21:23:03 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: Vamp Hacked! 3 Message-ID: <fBipUArmYXQT@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <433C99E8.DE91FB83@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  E > I guess the lesson here is that even the most unhackable o.s. can't 1 > prevent applications from having weak security.   A Whereas I would say the lesson is to avoid importing applications 3 that are "good enough" for other operating systems.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:40:17 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Vamp Hacked! + Message-ID: <433CA591.64CC91EB@comcast.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > b > In article <433C99E8.DE91FB83@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > G > > I guess the lesson here is that even the most unhackable o.s. can't 3 > > prevent applications from having weak security.  > C > Whereas I would say the lesson is to avoid importing applications 5 > that are "good enough" for other operating systems.    ...and the alternative is ... ?    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:03:17 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? , Message-ID: <433C3A74.1EC6333D@teksavvy.com>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:I > 1. Although it would be nice, Itanium does not need to be the leader in G > latest speeds-n-feeds in order to be successful.  It just needs to be F > competitive. Heck, Sun has proven that over the years and as slow as > SPARC was,    D There is a big difference here. SPARC was succesfull, considered theH "industry standard" for Unix and was widely regarded as a safe platform.  F IA64 has none of those attributes. It doesn't have an established userD base, it is new and already talk of killing it because it just isn'tE what it promised it would be. And more importantly, HP and Intel have A already started to cannabalise it by limiting its market niche to E supercomputers, and then there is the writing on the wall with the 64 G bit 8086 which Intel swore woudl never happen, coming to further reduce  IA64's remaining niche.   E Sun saw the writing on the wall and the demand from customers to have G Solaris on the 8086. Not only did it revoke its decision to abandon the 9 8086, but it has now embraced the 8086 platform big time.   D It is time for VMS to do the same. It cannot succeed on a low volumeA small market niche platform. VMS would be far mroe succesful on a A mainstream platform where its future would no longer always be in H question. If Intel and AMD stop making 8086s,  VMS won't be alone in theD dark, it will be in good company with some 95% of the market. EG: It
 won't happen.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:59:49 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> ? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? 9 Message-ID: <atZ_e.7451$cq2.865220@news20.bellglobal.com>   ' <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message  = news:1127997942.208024.216130@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... C > We all read about all these big vms users so excited that vms was B > moving to an "industry standard" platform ... they all knew thatC > itanium wasn't even close to alpha and never will be according to H > DEC engineering reports, but they persisted in their idiocy regardless
 > ... why? > B > And more importantly, know that they see itanium as the farce it5 > is, why are they not demanding alpha startup again?  >    Like we had a choice...   L The business world is being run by marketing people and the technical world  is ignored every time (for now)   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:04:00 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> ? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? 4 Message-ID: <Ap__e.13520$jv2.11040@news.cpqcorp.net>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote:C > We all read about all these big vms users so excited that vms was C > moving to an "industry standard" platform ...  they all knew that C > itanium wasn't even close to alpha and never will be according to H > DEC engineering reports, but they persisted in their idiocy regardless
 > ... why?  G VMS customers as a whole don't believe what the doom-and-gloomers here  E say. (In fact, a lot of VMS customers don't even bother to read this  D newsgroup anymore, because it's gotten so depressing. They hang out G instead in places like the HP ITRC Forums on OpenVMS, asking technical  @ questions and getting good answers, without streams of vitriol. I Sometimes I wonder why anyone from HP comes here anymore, given how much   abuse is dished out.)   H VMS customers as a whole are making reasoned, logical choices, based on % observed facts, not wild speculation.   D Itanium has turned out to be a reasonable chip, with ECC in all the I right places, and good design for reliability. It has the support of the  G world't largest microprocessor manufacturer. It has proven scalability  E (up to 128 processors in a Superdome). The HP Integrity server boxes  ? have the traditional high quality you'd expect from an HP box:  " well-made, solid, well-engineered.  I The hardware costs less than Alpha hardware, and the performance at this  H point is basically the same as the same-sized Alpha box. There are some H bonuses, too: the rx1620 has two CPUs, whereas the DS15 has only 1. The E rx4640 takes less rack space (4u) than an ES45, and can have up to 8   CPUs instead of 4.  I Customers know they can run VMS or Windows or Linux or HP-UX on the same  G hardware (even all at once in partitions within the same box), so that  F gives them more flexibility, better investment protection, and higher C resale value, and makes it easier to justify hardware purchases to  E managers unsure or unknowledgeable about VMS (using the old line "we  I could always run Windows or Linux or HP-UX on it if we ever moved off of  H VMS" and then, under one's breath, "not that we'd ever be stupid enough  to actually do that".)  B When they boot up an Itanium box, they find the same familiar VMS E they've come to know and love. They can (and do) boot an Itanium box  E into the same cluster as their other VMS boxes, share the same Fibre  B Channel storage, and things just work. The new boxes and the old, F familiar OS in its new form have the support of a strong company like < HP, who is committed to its ongoing development and support.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:46:57 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? , Message-ID: <433C7CD8.FC866ABE@teksavvy.com>   Keith Parris wrote: H > VMS customers as a whole don't believe what the doom-and-gloomers here > say.  B Yep. Reminiscent of when Gerstner got into IBM and found plenty ofA studies showing IBM customers were quite happy with IBM and which H provided no explantion of why IBM was losing ground against competition." Reason: those surveys only looked / at remaining customers who were happy with IBM.   E If you want VMS to grow, if you to see "stale" VMS customers to start F spending money on VMS again, then you need to look at the big picture,. not just selective polling of happy customers.    H If the HP apoligists were to admit to the problems faced by VMS and tellD us that VMS management are tackling those problems , you'd see a lotC less complaining here. But as long as you continue to paint a rosey H picture, we do not have confidence that VMS management are even aware ofF perception problems and thus aren't even trying to fix those problems.    I > VMS customers as a whole are making reasoned, logical choices, based on ' > observed facts, not wild speculation.   G Yep. AS A WHOLE, VMS customers have long ago decided to switch to other G platforms. The VMS marketplace is today, but a fraction of what it used  to be.    E > Itanium has turned out to be a reasonable chip, with ECC in all the 0 > right places, and good design for reliability.  E IA64 has been relegated to a niche market, low volume. No matter what H its technical specs are, it will not help VMS come back to life and grow? again. VMS desperatly needs to be on a mainstream architecture.   G Stope justifying Curly/Carly's decisions to go to IA64, think about the ? future of VMS and on which platform it would have most success.      > It has the support of the . > world't largest microprocessor manufacturer.  G Yep. For the past 20 months, Intel has been narrowing IA64'Ss prospects H to just the high end supercomputers, down from initial promises it wouldH replace the 8086 as industry standard commodity architecture. Intel, whoG had been saying 64 bit was reserved to IA64 did an about face and built F a 64 bit 8086.  YOu really think that there is such widespread support
 from Intel ?    E People want a growing platform that is not relegated to a niche, they D want a platform that is mainstream and without rumours of its demise constantly circulating.   F > (up to 128 processors in a Superdome). The HP Integrity server boxes@ > have the traditional high quality you'd expect from an HP box:$ > well-made, solid, well-engineered.  G Same can be said of HP's 8086 boxes, althought they do not yet scale to   128 processors (a small market).    . > The hardware costs less than Alpha hardware.  E  That is such a lame excuse. Had HP wanted, it could have built Alpha C boxes with same components that costed the same. It just decided to - continue to build with 1990s Digital designs.    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Sep 2005 16:36:25 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? C Message-ID: <1128036985.458969.124760@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote:G > "Although it would be nice, Itanium does not need to be the leader in G > latest speeds-n-feeds in order to be successful.  It just needs to be  > competitive."  > 6 > this is sun logic ... can't compete on the technical5 > merits so we will just throw together an 80,000 cpu / > box with a million megs of cache and make our 1 > machine competitive ... that is how you help IT 3 > progress to new levels ... that is the x86 bandid 7 > theory ... only, eventually, you run out of bandaids!   D Well, x86 has been "running on bandaids" for years. So I would thinkB that -- based on this reasoning -- this bodes very well indeed for@ Itanium, since Itanium has just pulled out of the starting gate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:32:54 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> ? Subject: RE: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB70BFA4@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]=20 " > Sent: September 29, 2005 3:03 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com A > Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  >=20 > "Main, Kerry" wrote:@ > > 1. Although it would be nice, Itanium does not need to be=20 > the leader in @ > > latest speeds-n-feeds in order to be successful.  It just=20
 > needs to be H > > competitive. Heck, Sun has proven that over the years and as slow as > > SPARC was, >=20 >=20F > There is a big difference here. SPARC was succesfull, considered the> > "industry standard" for Unix and was widely regarded as a=20 > safe platform. >=20H > IA64 has none of those attributes. It doesn't have an established userF > base, it is new and already talk of killing it because it just isn'tG > what it promised it would be. And more importantly, HP and Intel have C > already started to cannabalise it by limiting its market niche to G > supercomputers, and then there is the writing on the wall with the 64 = > bit 8086 which Intel swore woudl never happen, coming to=20  > further reduce > IA64's remaining niche.  >=20  , Wow, where have you been getting this stuff?   :-)   B Intel and HP are focusing Itanium on RISC systems used in businessB systems. So, that essentially means *any* 2-128CPU+ class systems.F Course, feel free to call any 2-128 CPU business system a market niche if you like.  ? Where in the world did you get this "supercomputer only" stuff?   B Before writing more of the rhetoric, check out the number of ISV'sD porting their app's to OpenVMS Integrity: (do you really think these! ISV's did not do their homework?) < http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/i64partner_A.html    G > Sun saw the writing on the wall and the demand from customers to have @ > Solaris on the 8086. Not only did it revoke its decision to=20
 > abandon the ; > 8086, but it has now embraced the 8086 platform big time.  >=20  H Ahhhh, I wish Andrew was still around - responding to this would be much	 more fun.    :-)   	 [snip...]    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:34:33 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>? Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce? = Message-ID: <DpOdnT-evcjHXaHeRVn-tQ@metrocastcablevision.com>    Main, Kerry wrote: >>-----Original Message-----7 >>From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]  " >>Sent: September 29, 2005 3:03 PM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com A >>Subject: Re: Why did VMS users go along with the itanium farce?  >> >>"Main, Kerry" wrote: >>= >>>1. Although it would be nice, Itanium does not need to be   >> >>the leader in  >>= >>>latest speeds-n-feeds in order to be successful.  It just   >>
 >>needs to be  >>G >>>competitive. Heck, Sun has proven that over the years and as slow as 
 >>>SPARC was,  >> >>F >>There is a big difference here. SPARC was succesfull, considered the< >>"industry standard" for Unix and was widely regarded as a  >>safe platform. >>H >>IA64 has none of those attributes. It doesn't have an established userF >>base, it is new and already talk of killing it because it just isn'tG >>what it promised it would be. And more importantly, HP and Intel have C >>already started to cannabalise it by limiting its market niche to G >>supercomputers, and then there is the writing on the wall with the 64 ; >>bit 8086 which Intel swore woudl never happen, coming to   >>further reduce >>IA64's remaining niche.  >> >  > . > Wow, where have you been getting this stuff?  I I'll answer that question just to keep you honest, Kerry - though that's   always a difficult task.  G "There is a big difference here" indeed, and he goes on to explain it,   point by point:   H "SPARC was successful" - very much so, to the point that it established B a loyal user base large enough to have weathered years of sub-par C performance and still remain the largest single Unix customer base.   F "considered the 'industry standard' for Unix" - absolutely.  AIX made E headway much more because it was IBM's entry than anything else, and  G PA_RISC never enjoyed nearly the perception of being the standard that  H SPARC did (and Tru64/Alpha, good though the combination was, remained a I distant 4th, though was closing with pretty impressive speed when it got  	 the axe).   G "was widely regarded as a safe platform" - yup, that's what going with   the leader gets you.  G "IA64 has none of these attributes" indeed, and he lists why in detail:   C "It doesn't have an established user base, it is new" - well, duh:  D that's the penalty you pay when you introduce a new platform, so no  possible argument there.  G "and already talk of killing it because it just isn't what it promised  I it would be" - let's address this in more detail, lest you try to weasel   your way out of it:   B 1.  Merced was originally slated to be the platform that left all I competition in its dust (2x - 3x the performance of the competition, and  H the infamous Albert Yu quote that said competition had no future), then I turned out to be a complete joke (even Intel warned people ahead of time  : that it wasn't anything more than a familiarization mule).  E 2.  As late as early 2002 HP spokespeople were predicting a meteoric  F rise in McKinley sales to levels that Itanic *still* hasn't matched 3  years later.  E 3.  McKinley clock rates were scaled back from 1.4 GHz to 1.2 GHz to  F eventually 1.0 GHz - and some parts wouldn't even run at over 800 MHz.  E 4.  HP used carefully-selected benchmarks that continued to give the  F gullible a far better picture of McKinley's relative performance than  was actually the case.  G 5.  Madison clock rates were less over hyped than McKinley's were, but  B still failed to rise over time to the levels eventually hoped for.  D 6.  And now Montecito has just slipped another 6 months and when it D finally does appear won't even clock as fast as current Madison IIs E (with Montvale now targeting the frequencies originally expected for  1 Montecito and nothing more in sight before 2008).   H So Itanic has beyond any shadow of a doubt failed to come anywhere near F what it was promised to be - time and time again with what has become H grinding predictability.  As for the "talk of killing it"  - well, that E would hardly be surprising under the circumstances, but there's also  F well over a year's worth of Intel and HP behavior to lend credence to  that 'talk':  G 1.  Intel killed its own new Itanic chipset work in the spring of last  C year, leaving Itanic dependent on the aging existing chipset until  F Tukwila (slated for 2007 then, now looking a lot more like 2008) save F for any chipsets developed by OEMs:  Fujitsu and Hitachi already have B their own new chipsets, though they haven't posted any impressive E benchmark results with them yet; HP has one on the way as well - but   Dell, of course, does not.  F 2.  Intel pulled the ex-Alpha team off their Tukwila core work around H December, 2004, and instead decided to make Tukwila yet another spin of H the already-tiring McKinley core used in McKinley, Madison, Madison II,  Montecito, and Montvale.  I 3.  Intel scaled Montvale back from a significant revamp of Montecito in  F 65 nm. to a barely-perceptible upgrade in the same 90 nm. process (in F fact, as noted above, to just about the low end of what Montecito had - been expected to provide in the first place).   H 4.  HP embraced Opteron with somewhat surprising enthusiasm considering E its potential for disrupting entry-level Itanic sales, and continued  D beating the 'industry-standard' drum not on behalf of Itanic but on A behalf of 'non-proprietary' platforms based on Windows and Linux  H (neither of which of course requires Itanic in any way).  While this is I certainly consistent with HP's apparent desire to become a box-assembler  ? using other people's technology, it's hardly the behavior of a  D corporation that thinks it has 'bet the company' on Itanic and thus . needs to bolster that platform preferentially.  F 5.  And of course there are the moderately credible rumors that Intel I has approached both SGI and HP about the possibility of supporting Xeons  F as well as Itanics in their large systems (presumably when the common : system infrastructure appears in 2007 - for Xeon, anyway).  D So, yes - with the repeated cut-backs in Intel's support for Itanic I coupled with an apparent lack of urgency on the HP end of things and the  H continuing dismal comparisons of Itanic reality vs. Itanic predictions, 8 one can hardly dismiss 'talk of killing' it as pure FUD.  E "HP and Intel have already started to cannabalise it by limiting its  C market niche to supercomputers" - yes, JF misspoke, and you wisely  F pounced on that to quibble about.  Had he correctly characterized the I niche as high-end servers, you'd have had nothing (not that this usually  E slows you down, of course:  you'll take spin over substance any day,  I though often do make the effort to distort at least a pinch of substance  7 to add a thin veneer of lipstick to the resulting pig).   F "and then there is the writing on the wall with the 64 bit 8086 which @ Intel swore woudl never happen, coming to further reduce IA64's G remaining niche" - interesting development, that.  Less than two years  E ago Intel was indeed still pooh-poohing the idea of 64-bit x86, even  H after already having built the capability into its own products just in B case.  But when the writing on the wall became clear, they didn't F hesitate to reverse course, meet AMD head-to-head, and stop trying to B protect Itanic's ability to establish a foothold in that area and  instead throw it to the wolves.   B I'm sure there's a lot more detail that I could come up with if I G considered you worth the effort of doing some actual digging, but that   will just have to do for now.    Have a nice day,   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:14:11 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> N Subject: Re: [OpenVMS V7.3-2] SYSGEN> SHOW EXPECTED_VOTES vs SDA> SHOW CLUSTER3 Message-ID: <DOY_e.13502$Xq2.9570@news.cpqcorp.net>     Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:6 > I just noted a situation which I can't explain, yet. > H > Showing the SYSGEN (active, nondynamic) parameter EXPECTED_VOTES gives. > me another value than SDA SHOW CLUSTER does. > I > Why ? I thought they both show the same memory location. Obviously not. L > I know SYSGEN current is different (because ALPHAVMSSYS.PAR file, not mem)0 > but the active ? What is the background here ?  F The values which SDA> SHOW CLUSTER (and $SHOW CLUSTER/CONTINUOUS with I ADD CLUSTER,EXPECTED,VOTES,QUORUM) are from the same source: the cluster  G data structures: the CLUB, along with the CSBs for each node. The CLUB  I holds the cluster-wide values for things like Expected_Votes and Quorum;  H these are adjusted as nodes join (and leave with the REMOVE_NODE option > to SHUTDOWN) or manual adjustments are made with SET CLUSTER,  Availability Manager, etc.  E The values which F$GETSYI() and SYSGEN/SYSMAN display are the system  F parameters. The cluster code picks up values of the SYSGEN parameters H VOTES and EXPECTED_VOTES at boot time and put them into the CSB for the C node, and the values in the CSBs for all the cluster nodes in turn  F influence what gets set in the CLUB. Changes to the SYSGEN parameters I after boot don't affect what's already gotten moved into the CSBs or the   CLUB.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:20:21 GMT A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> = Subject: Re: [Q] DECnet phase IV node drops itself. Why? How? ? Message-ID: <FfW_e.118023$G8.109844@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   J Have you got a copy of that node's system disc restored to another box andC inadvertently they're on the same network? If so then you'll have a J duplicate MAC address (and DECnet Phase IV address). It's conceivable thatF there are odd timing effects within your VLAN (or extended VLAN acrossJ multiple sites) that have somehow allowed them both to come up at the same time.    --     Hope this helps, Colin. ) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk E It's not mine, but I like this definition: Legacy = stuff that works.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.545 ************************                                                                                  ! <<< RETR sigtape_to_eur.addressMa >>> 150 IMAGE retrieve of /disk$misc/decus/02avmslt/sigtape_to_eur.address (790 bytes) started.l9 >>> 226 Transfer completed.  234 (8) bytes transferred.1 <<< PORT 194,116,244,16,5,634 >>> 200 Port 5.63 at Host 194.116.244.16 accepted. <<< RETR submit.txtoV >>> 150 IMAGE retrieve of /disk$misc/decus/02avmslt/submit.txt (4315 bytes) started.: >>> 226 Transfer completed.  3877 (8) bytes transferred. <<< PORT 194,116,244,16,5,644 >>> 200 Port 5.64 at Host 194.116.244.16 accepted. <<< RETR tapecopy.historyr] >>> 150 IMAGE retrieve of /disk$misc/decus/02avmslt/tapecopy.history (28249 bytes) started.f; >>> 226 Transfer completed.  28071 (8) bytes transferred.6 <<< PORT 194,116,244,16,5,664 >>> 200 Port 5.66 at Host 194.116.244.16 accepted. <<< RETR tctree.labeV >>> 150 IMAGE retrieve of /disk$misc/decus/02avmslt/tctree.lab (7627 bytes) started.: >>> 226 Transfer completed.  6709 (8) bytes transferred. <<< PORT 194,116,244,16,5,674 >>> 200 Port 5.67 at Host 194.116.244.16 accepted. <<< RETR tctree.lisMW >>> 150 IMAGE retrieve of /disk$misc/decus/02avmslt/tctree.lis (34090 bytes) started. ; >>> 226 Transfer completed.  33494 (8) bytes transferred.  <<< PORT 194,116,244,16,5,684 >>> 200 Port 5.68 at Host 194.116.244.16 accepted. <<< RETR tctreeproc.lis [ >>> 150 IMAGE retrieve of /disk$misc/decus/02avmslt/tctreeproc.lis (19611 bytes) started.f; >>> 226 Transfer completed.  19301 (8) bytes transferred.6 <<< PORT 194,116,244,16,5,694 >>> 200 Port 5.69 at Host 194.116.244.16 accepted. <<< RETR tctree_add.txteZ >>> 150 IMAGE retrieve of /disk$misc/decus/02avmslt/tctree_add.txt (1853 bytes) started.: >>> 226 Transfer completed.  1219 (8) bytes transferred. <<< PORT 194,116,244,16,5,704 >>> 200 Port 5.70 at Host 194.116.244.16 accepted.  <<< RETR tctree_update1mod.txta >>> 150 IMAGE retrieve of /disk$misc/decus/02avmslt/tctree_update1mod.txt (2207 bytes) started.3: >>> 226 Transfer completed.  1889 (8) by