1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 26 Apr 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 230       Contents:) Automatically rebooting from another disk - Re: Automatically rebooting from another disk  Re: File output like Unix  Re: File output like Unix  Re: File output like Unix  Re: File output like Unix  Re: File output like Unix 3 Re: Heads up - new BACKUP kit - VMS732_BACKUP-V0500 - How does File ID correspond to kfe$w_fid_num? 1 Re: How does File ID correspond to kfe$w_fid_num? * Re: HP Storageworks Arrays are Bulletproof Re: hypothetical question  Re: hypothetical question  Re: hypothetical question  Re: hypothetical question  Re: hypothetical question  Re: hypothetical question  Re: Intel VPro Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet RE: OT: Sparc not dead yet& Re: Spawn command in Asynchronous mode& Re: Spawn command in Asynchronous mode Re: VMS732_ACRTL-V0300 Re: VMS732_ACRTL-V0300 Re: VMS732_ACRTL-V0300  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2006 15:46:45 -0700 From: mark_doherty@yahoo.co.uk2 Subject: Automatically rebooting from another diskC Message-ID: <1146005205.785933.180610@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    VAX 4000, DSSI
 VAX/VMS 5.5-2   B We have a system where we regularly change the disk ids and reboot5 (each disk (RF36) has its os and unique application). G The applications have a dependancy on the disk name ($1$DIA0), not much  I can do about that.  & I would like to do this automatically.  E Before reboot can I change the ALLOCLASS, UNITNUM and FORCEUNI params A of both the running and other disk and do away with the disk ids?    What would the commands be?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:57:02 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>6 Subject: Re: Automatically rebooting from another disk6 Message-ID: <444EE17E.6A53BE56@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   mark_doherty@yahoo.co.uk wrote:  >  > VAX 4000, DSSI > VAX/VMS 5.5-2  > D > We have a system where we regularly change the disk ids and reboot7 > (each disk (RF36) has its os and unique application). I > The applications have a dependancy on the disk name ($1$DIA0), not much  > I can do about that.  , Have you tried using a logical name like so:  - $ DEFINE/SYSTEM/EXEC/TRANS=TERM $1$DIA0 ddcu:   8 ...in, for example, SYLOGICALS.COM which gets run beforeF SYSTARTUP_V5.COM? That should resolve the dependencies, I think. If itH works well enough, you should even be able to move to, for example, SCSI
 disks, as in:   3 $ DEFINE/SYSTEM/EXEC/TRANS=TERM $1$DIA0 _$1$DKA300:   ( > I would like to do this automatically.  B Not sure that's even possible without trashing the running system.  G > Before reboot can I change the ALLOCLASS, UNITNUM and FORCEUNI params C > of both the running and other disk and do away with the disk ids?  >  > What would the commands be?   F Well, from notes I've not used in over ten years, I know you should be7 able to connect to the DSSI drives using a syntax like:   1 $ SET HOST/DUP/SERV=MSCP$DUP/TASK=PARAMS $1$DIA0:   < ...but where you would go from there I wouldn't have a clue.   Sorry...   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2006 11:23:24 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com " Subject: Re: File output like UnixC Message-ID: <1145989404.330424.164290@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   ? why do users want convuluted unix commands like pipe grep slurp : gulp ... when they use common english makes sense commands like COPY on vms?    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:05:42 +0000 (UTC) . From: Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com>" Subject: Re: File output like Unix, Message-ID: <e2lvem$3jj$1@reader1.panix.com>  ; On 25 Apr 2006 10:01:08 -0700, contracer11@gmail.com wrote: D > Is there any way or free executable to use this command in VAX/VMS	 > 5.5-2 ?    > $ type file.txt > file2.txt   
 >    like   ) > # cat file.txt > file2.txt (in Solaris)    If you google for    unix vms commands & you'll find many helpful websites with command conversions.  
 Of course,   cat file.txt > file2.txt in UNIX could also be    cp file.txt file2.txt    --  7 Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@panQQQix.com> (lose the Q's)    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:27:50 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>" Subject: Re: File output like Unix1 Message-ID: <qvw3g.6813$yd.1239@news.cpqcorp.net>    contracer11@gmail.com wrote:D > Is there any way or free executable to use this command in VAX/VMS	 > 5.5-2 ?  >  > $ type file.txt > file2.txt  > 
 >    like  > ) > # cat file.txt > file2.txt (in Solaris)   B    The OpenVMS manuals can potentially be useful here, as can the H available comparisons between DCL commands and Unix shell commands (qv: F various URLs referenced in the OpenVMS FAQ), and there's my preferred H I/O redirection mechanism for 1992-vintage (and most any other) OpenVMS G VAX releases (and particularly useful for commands that lack /OUTPUT),  7 the @ command.  Yes, the indirect command file command.   / Specifically, a sequence such as the following:    $ @tt:/output=filespec
 _$ command _$ ^Z  $   C    This executes commands from the terminal as if they were from a  G procedure.  And since the @ command has allowed /OUTPUT for some time,  @ it's quite useful.  (I don't recall off-hand when @ saw /OUTPUT 8 implemented, but it's been around for a very long time.)  F    With something closer to 1997 (eg: OpenVMS V7.1), you get the PIPE  command and I/O redirection.  A    Others have mentioned the COPY command, and that works nicely.   G    And then there's the old stand-by, DEFINE/USER of SYS$OUTPUT and/or  = SYS$ERROR.  (I prefer to avoid it, as it gets a little ugly.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:07:36 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> " Subject: Re: File output like Unix: Message-ID: <OdmdndDpZ9lEWtPZnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@comcast.com>   contracer11@gmail.com wrote:  D > Is there any way or free executable to use this command in VAX/VMS	 > 5.5-2 ?  >  > $ type file.txt > file2.txt  > 
 >    like  > ) > # cat file.txt > file2.txt (in Solaris)  >  > Thanks >   
 How about: $ COPY FILE.TXT FILE2.TXT   D If you have POSIX installed you could use the Unix syntax but POSIX I support was dropped several years ago.  It wasn't much good for anything  E even when it was supported!  (I once tried to build NTP-4.2.0 in VMS  I V7.2 (I think) and the POSIX shell, after I installed POSIX was not able  ! to execute the configure script.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:20:52 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> " Subject: Re: File output like Unix/ Message-ID: <gIadnSM9oP7ZRdPZRVn-pQ@libcom.com>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote:A > why do users want convuluted unix commands like pipe grep slurp < > gulp ... when they use common english makes sense commands > like COPY on vms?  >   B If English isn't your language, then COPY is as much a convoluted  command as whatever Unix uses.  0 That said, I much prefer DCL, and plain English.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:10:44 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>< Subject: Re: Heads up - new BACKUP kit - VMS732_BACKUP-V05006 Message-ID: <444ED6A4.292F1BEA@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Valentin Likoum wrote: > [snip]/ > What else? Non-image backup? For system disk?   F Well, I'm think that non-image may be your best bet, unless you have a lot of aliased files.   G You may want to rethink the idea of using DVE on a system disk. I would ? think the system disk should be kept as minimal and pristine as C possible, though perhaps having it on mirrored stripe-sets would be  beneficial.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2006 13:30:23 -0700* From: "Brice Buchanan" <BriceBu@gmail.com>6 Subject: How does File ID correspond to kfe$w_fid_num?C Message-ID: <1145997023.050246.196580@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>    Hello everyone,   B I'm having a problem with lib$fid_to_name on OpenVMS 8.2. It isn'tB working for KFDB entry values of kfe$w_fid_num when (kfe$w_flags & KFE$M_OPEN).  , The code works fine when run on OpenVMS 7.x.  @ I'm not even sure the fid is correct, and suspect it is not. The% numbers I have don't seem to line up.       $ dir /file      MYPROG.EXE;1      (9970,2,0)   % For this file, kfe$w_fid_num = 23936.   , kfe$w_fid_num  =  23936  =  0101110110000000  3 File ID = (9970,2,0)  =   (0010011011110010, 10, 0)   G If this fid_num is a composite of the elements of the File ID, I'm just  not seeing it.  F One wrinkle: for images installed /open, I'm plugging the fid with theG value pulled from the kfe window control block's file control block, as  follows:  '     kfe$l_wcb->wcb$l_fcb->fcb$w_fid_num   = Again, this code has been  working fine for years on VMS 7.x.   G Anybody have any insight into this? I'd be very grateful for any clues.  Thanks!     - Brice   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:55:21 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>: Subject: Re: How does File ID correspond to kfe$w_fid_num?1 Message-ID: <dVw3g.6817$Hf.4806@news.cpqcorp.net>    Brice Buchanan wrote:   D > I'm having a problem with lib$fid_to_name on OpenVMS 8.2. It isn'tD > working for KFDB entry values of kfe$w_fid_num when (kfe$w_flags & > KFE$M_OPEN).  F    What might you be up to, here?  (Poking around at the undocumented G corners of the kernel structures has always been mildly hazardous, and  ? many of these structures are subject to change without notice.)   D    The field you are looking at is either a FID or a Window Control I Block (WCB) -- among other uses.  SDA shows several symbols for the same  9 data cell, which obviously usually implies multiple uses.   F    From the field (when it is a WCB), look for the File Control Block H (FCB) linkage, and look for the FID stored over there in the FCB.  (And H based on a quick look on a local system, the FID stored in the FCB does 1 match the FID on the "open" file that I checked.)   F    For some definitions for use within SDA, you can use the following F command: $ Macro X.MAR+SYS$SHARE:LIB/LIB, where X.MAR looks like this:      $WCBDEF GLOBAL     $KFEDEF GLOBAL     $FCBDEF GLOBAL     .END   G    And you can then tell SDA to READ X.OBJ the file to get the symbols  I for the FORMAT of the WCB, KFE and FCB data structures.  (There's also a  D SHOW KFE command available within recent/current SDA versions, too.)  F    AFAIK, this stuff has not changed in quite some time -- one of the G most recent changes of any significance that I can recall within these  0 INSTALL-related structures was back around V6.2.  G    And I'd tend to use other means to access this information, such as  B the "KNOWN" option from within f$file_attributes lexical, and not G kernel-mode code.  (If I can reasonably avoid kernel-mode code through  I the use of supported interfaces, obviously, that's the way I'd go.)  But  9 this all depends on exactly what you are up to here, too.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:16:38 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>3 Subject: Re: HP Storageworks Arrays are Bulletproof 6 Message-ID: <444ED806.43058040@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Neil Rieck wrote:  > < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message' > news:444D0951.8E908F1@teksavvy.com...  > > Neil Rieck wrote: $ > >> I have yet to see OpenVMS takenC > >> seriously by anyone outside of this newsgroup as a desktop OS.  > > I > > The problem is VMS beung taken seriously is far more than just at the I > > desktop. People don't take it seriously because it is taken for dead, 9 > > not marketed and HP doesn't defend any FUD about VMS.  > > M > You sound so negative. We all would like to see a little more marketing but 6 > at least things have improved since the Compaq days. > ? > 1) Compaq got rid of OpenVMS education and HP is reviving it. ; > 2) The TUD (technical update days) stuff started under HP 6 > 3) I "think" the OpenVMS boot camps started under HP > 4) This web page: C > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.html M > makes me think HP is cranking out more OpenVMS code (in a shorter amount of  > time) than Compaq did. > N > The current HP atmosphere is somewhat reminiscent of the DEC days. Only timeI > will tell if things can get even better. Now with regards to an OpenVMS K > desktop, I don't think this will ever happen until OpenVMS runs on x86-64   E I doubt much of anything will happen for VMS until it runs on x86-64, 4 period - server, desktop, laptop, palmtop, whatever.  H Yes, there is some positive happening for VMS. We just need to take that? momentum and raise its exponent by several orders of magnitude.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:28:05 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> " Subject: Re: hypothetical question: Message-ID: <COednSNHzZL7CdPZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@comcast.com>   Guy Peleg wrote:  < > If I could make your BACKUP operations complete faster....= > 2-5 times faster....but restrict this feature for save-sets 9 > written to disks only (not to support it with save-sets 1 > written to tapes).....would you find it useful?  > # > I'm looking for yes/no answer....  > ) > Please do not ask for more details..... 3 > Please do not speculate.....it will be clear soon  > = > I'm unable to provide any further information at this point  > 
 > Thank you !  >  > Guy Peleg  > OpenVMS Engineering  > L > (Please do not re-post this in any other forum, I chose c.o.v. on purpose) >  >   F 95+% of my backups were written to tape.  I'm semi retired these days B but when I was working, I would not have found it terribly useful.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:47:05 -0700 # From: Joe Bloggs <JBloggs@acme.com> " Subject: Re: hypothetical question8 Message-ID: <dk9t42126bcq7pn6uiqlqhni1l8n0v10oo@4ax.com>  / On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:25:30 +0300, "Guy Peleg" , <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> wrote:  ; >If I could make your BACKUP operations complete faster.... < >2-5 times faster....but restrict this feature for save-sets8 >written to disks only (not to support it with save-sets0 >written to tapes).....would you find it useful?  = yes.  most of our time-critical backups are to disk savesets.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:56:10 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> " Subject: Re: hypothetical question, Message-ID: <444EB71A.3DB94CC2@teksavvy.com>  - re: backup from disk to a disk based saveset.   B One issue I have just thought of: so, you create the save set on aH different disk REALLY FAST. But then, how do you savely copy the saveset	 to tape ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:30:26 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> " Subject: Re: hypothetical question9 Message-ID: <4oidnYKwF6IeR9PZnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@libcom.com>    JF Mezei wrote: / > re: backup from disk to a disk based saveset.  > D > One issue I have just thought of: so, you create the save set on aJ > different disk REALLY FAST. But then, how do you savely copy the saveset > to tape ?   E To copy the save set to tape, the COPY command is appropriate.  This  D does have some ramafications.  BACKUP is set up to handle some tape 4 errors, while COPY will not do as well in this area.  I I'd think that if I had problems copying a save set to tape, I'd want to  F use another tape.  Best to at least start out with no errors, they'll C eventually rear their ugly head in time.  However, I'm not sure if  E BACKUP will be able to better handle the tape if it didn't write the  L save set.  This would be a question for those supporting the BACKUP utility.   There are no guarantees.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 03:25:34 +0000 7 From: David B Sneddon - bigpond <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> " Subject: Re: hypothetical question* Message-ID: <444EE82E.2050609@bigpond.com>  ! Dave Froble mentioned in passing:  > JF Mezei wrote:  > 0 >> re: backup from disk to a disk based saveset. >>E >> One issue I have just thought of: so, you create the save set on a K >> different disk REALLY FAST. But then, how do you savely copy the saveset  >> to tape ? >  > G > To copy the save set to tape, the COPY command is appropriate.  This  F > does have some ramafications.  BACKUP is set up to handle some tape 6 > errors, while COPY will not do as well in this area. > K > I'd think that if I had problems copying a save set to tape, I'd want to  H > use another tape.  Best to at least start out with no errors, they'll E > eventually rear their ugly head in time.  However, I'm not sure if  G > BACKUP will be able to better handle the tape if it didn't write the  F > save set.  This would be a question for those supporting the BACKUP 
 > utility. >  > There are no guarantees. >   0 Would you not just BACKUP your save set to tape?   Regards, Dave --  B David B Sneddon (dbs) VMS Systems Programmer dbsneddon@bigpond.comB Sneddo's quick guide ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/B DBS freeware   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 06:09:32 +0300 7 From: "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> " Subject: Re: hypothetical question, Message-ID: <444ee46f$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  B "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> wrote in message$ news:444d262e@usenet01.boi.hp.com...< > If I could make your BACKUP operations complete faster....= > 2-5 times faster....but restrict this feature for save-sets 9 > written to disks only (not to support it with save-sets 1 > written to tapes).....would you find it useful?  > # > I'm looking for yes/no answer....  > ) > Please do not ask for more details..... 3 > Please do not speculate.....it will be clear soon  > = > I'm unable to provide any further information at this point  > 
 > Thank you !  >  > Guy Peleg  > OpenVMS Engineering  > L > (Please do not re-post this in any other forum, I chose c.o.v. on purpose) >  >   K unfortunately I did not win the war I was fighting.......but thanks for the H ammunition. There will be details on this during my utilities session inG the bootcamp, but it will be under NDA. this  will become somewhat more # public towards the end of the year.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:46:34 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> Subject: Re: Intel VPro 6 Message-ID: <444EDF0A.5E193988@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Tom Linden wrote: + > > > http://theinquirer.net/?article=31221  > >  > >   I am still clueless. > g > http://news.com.com/Intel+picks+VPro+for+business+desktop+brand/2100-1006_3-6064267.html?tag=nefd.top  > I > It is mostly marketing fluff. Like "Centrino" which is a package of low E > power CPU with wi-fi/mobile computing chips. This one is a CPU with [ > chips that allow remote management and multiple instances of OS rto run (virtualisation).   E So, it's a form of "Galaxy" for IA32 (and, presumably, for x86-64 and  IA64)?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2006 11:16:12 -0700 From: bob@instantwhip.com # Subject: Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet C Message-ID: <1145988972.032931.271640@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   E and they like slowaris are gimmick OSs also that crash repeatedly ...    ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2006 14:33:34 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> # Subject: Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet C Message-ID: <1146000814.867790.119160@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Dave Froble wrote: > boob@instantwhip.com barfed:I > > and they like slowaris are gimmick OSs also that crash repeatedly ...  > >  > H > It's my understanding that the IBM mainframe systems are rather robust
 > and hearty.  >   ?  Nahh. I'm pretty sure bob's right. Why, when I worked with IBM C mainframes back in the 60's they had all kinds of quirks. Had a big E book of error codes with the instruction to dial in at the console to E kick the thing back to life. Dang MFCM's used to jam at least twice a > day, too. I don't imagine they've changed much since then. 8-|   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:52:35 +0000 (UTC) 1 From: legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) # Subject: Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet , Message-ID: <e2m5n2$hr0$1@news.xmission.com>  / [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]   = "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> spake the secret code ? <1146000814.867790.119160@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> thusly:    >Dave Froble wrote:  >> boob@instantwhip.com barfed: J >> > and they like slowaris are gimmick OSs also that crash repeatedly ... >> > >>I >> It's my understanding that the IBM mainframe systems are rather robust  >> and hearty. >> > @ > Nahh. I'm pretty sure bob's right. Why, when I worked with IBM@ >mainframes back in the 60's they had all kinds of quirks. [...]  C Yeah, and their machines haven't changed at all in 40 years, right?  --  E "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: 3           <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> ( 	    Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty,                <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2006 15:29:44 -0700C From: "AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk" <alexdaniels@themail.co.uk> # Subject: Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet C Message-ID: <1146004184.926176.277080@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Main, Kerry wrote:H >Would you be willing to pay extra for this hot swap capability vs using  >VMS servers on std HW (cheaper)  @ If your saying the cost of the hot-swap 'PCI' card capability inD hardware, would make hardware more expensive, then maybe you need toG review the facts, that capability is already in VMS supported hardware.  Marvel's specifically.   >From the HP website..  \ http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/download/html/dhb_ev7_alphaserver_delivers_061703.html  G "The I/O drawers offer hot-plug capability so the I/O adapter cards can 5 be repaired/replaced without taking the system down."   F It's also been confirmed to me from other people in HP, or if you likeB just open up an IO Drawer on a Marvel and look for the thumb-screwB plates that hold in the 'PCI' cards. The ones that have purple/redB thumb-screw plates, were designed to be hot-swappable in hardware.  F And with PCI-E coming along, I suspect a lot of future Integrity boxes will also support it.   @ > > > If you have this capability, local HW hot-swapping becomes > > much less ofJ > > > an issue. Especially if FC/NIC adapters are implemented with teaming> > > > design. If one adapter fails, simply schedule a time for > > the system to ? > > > be taken down and have it replaced. Since you do not need  > > to tell end 8 > > > users about this server going, they will not care.  F As per my last mail, thats what I already do. With the increased costsG of the extra cards, to impliment FailSafe on top of LAN failover (so as F I don't get a performance hit). What I would like as an option howeverB would be to hot-swap the cards and then just have FailSafe on some boxes (in the case of NICs).  @ >  With that project I worked on, using TCPware, we were able toE > telnet to a server, start a monitor system type command to generate C > activity, pull the associated NIC cable and the session continued G > running after only about a 2-3 second pause. No errors and no loss of J > data. With TCPware, we could see that the NIC failed over properly. ThisJ > also supported fail-back as well i.e. when we re-connected the NIC cableG > after a 2-3 second pause, the connection automatically failed back to  > the original port.  : As per TCP/IP Services FailSAFE IP, and VMS' LAN Failover.   > G > > As I'm sure your aware FailSafe IP also gives you added performance J > > benfits for your outgoing traffic, if there in the same subnet. LosingG > > a card drops your performance. And yes the obvious workaround is to @ > > deploy FailSafe on top of LAN Failover, with the added cost. > >  > J > As you indicated, the loss is in transmit only i.e. perhaps if you had aJ > big FTP background load, there might be some loss, but remember that theG > overall load is also split across the other servers in the cluster as G > well. I doubt end users would notice the impact of one NIC failing on 5 > one server in the cluster when its mate takes over.   F Users don't notice, nor do batch jobs, as I tend to impliment FailSAFED on top of LAN Failover. If I just had FailSAFE, then I would get theC performance hit. And sure the users wouldn't notice, but large data A transfers being generated by batch jobs in progress would notice.   < > > FC cards same issue, you lose performance, possible path > > changes across > > the cluster et al. > >  > J > Heck, the 2Gb cards I have used for the last 2 years or so have not been* > pushed at all - even with high IO loads.  G If that were true in all cases, it makes you wonder why VMS Engineering , are qualifing 4GB HBAs with Integrity boxes?  5 And indeed, support in VMS is already latent in F8.3.   $ $ write sys$output f$gets("version") F8.3? $ sea sys$system:sys$config.dat "Qlogic ISP2432 PCIe"/win=(0,8) - device          = "Qlogic ISP2432 PCIe Fibre"    name          = FG   driver        = SYS$PGQDRIVER    adapter       = PCIE   id            = 0x24321077   boot_class    = DG%   boot_flags    = HW_CTRL_LTR, UNIT_0 #   flags         = FIBRE, PORT, BOOT 
 end_device $   F The "QLogic ISP2432", a dual-port 4GB HBA and PCI-Express too, a shame2 we can't use the hot-swap features of PCI-Express.   > Yes, there might be some path A > changes, but that is transparent to applications and end users.   G Sure it's transparent in terms of availability. In terms of performance " it's not in a lot of environments.  G If you've balanced for performance reasons a small number disks on to a E specific HBA, that fails and gets the paths get pushed off to another B HBA, and they stay there (or can only be moved to other busy HBAs)B until you can drop the box, your application can certainly notice.  C Of course, the answer is to simply to buy more HBAs, being that you ( know you can't hot-swap/add in new ones.  G > > So yes one can wait for the users/batch jobs to finish, then drop a J > > node, but it's not ideal and customers are left having to puchase more) > > hardware to mitigate for these times.  > >  > I > That's what mission critical Customers do as part of their base design. G > In most Cust environments I have seen, normal users tend to logout at G > 5-8:00pm or they get disconnected for security reasons i.e. forgot to  > logout before heading home.  >   B I'm talking about trading systems supporting users and markets all7 around the world. 9-5 local time isn't what it's about.   C I'm more than familar with running active-active clusters and being E able to drop a node, my issue is the hit while one is waiting to drop C it. More hardware (which costs) helps here and can mostly solve the > problem, but hot-swapping would  be a nice option to have too.   Alex   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2006 15:09:55 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> # Subject: Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet B Message-ID: <1146002995.579371.39670@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>   Richard wrote:1 > [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]  > ? > "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> spake the secret code A > <1146000814.867790.119160@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> thusly:  >  > >Dave Froble wrote: ! > >> boob@instantwhip.com barfed: L > >> > and they like slowaris are gimmick OSs also that crash repeatedly ... > >> > > >>K > >> It's my understanding that the IBM mainframe systems are rather robust  > >> and hearty. > >> > > B > > Nahh. I'm pretty sure bob's right. Why, when I worked with IBMB > >mainframes back in the 60's they had all kinds of quirks. [...] > E > Yeah, and their machines haven't changed at all in 40 years, right?  > --   Doh!  1 "Doug Phillips" didn't say [...], but he did say: 8 > > I don't imagine they've changed much since then. 8-|  # I guess the emoticon was 2 obscure.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:54:25 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> # Subject: RE: OT: Sparc not dead yet T Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B8684013011A4@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----* > From: AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk=20' > [mailto:alexdaniels@themail.co.uk]=20  > Sent: April 25, 2006 6:30 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com % > Subject: Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet  >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote:9 > >Would you be willing to pay extra for this hot swap=20  > capability vs using " > >VMS servers on std HW (cheaper) >=20B > If your saying the cost of the hot-swap 'PCI' card capability inF > hardware, would make hardware more expensive, then maybe you need toB > review the facts, that capability is already in VMS supported=20 > hardware.  > Marvel's specifically. >=20 > >From the HP website.. >=20  E Bottom line is hot swap adds a lot of complexity into overall designs A and testing. Read much higher costs. Imho, if one implements dual G options (NIC's / SAN cards etc), then you can implement a solution with 3 much more standard hardware. Read much lower costs.    >=20H > It's also been confirmed to me from other people in HP, or if you likeD > just open up an IO Drawer on a Marvel and look for the thumb-screwD > plates that hold in the 'PCI' cards. The ones that have purple/redD > thumb-screw plates, were designed to be hot-swappable in hardware. >=20H > And with PCI-E coming along, I suspect a lot of future Integrity boxes > will also support it.  >=20  H And do you think these features will impact the pricing you will pay for this capability?  B > > > > If you have this capability, local HW hot-swapping becomes > > > much less ofB > > > > an issue. Especially if FC/NIC adapters are implemented=20 > with teaming@ > > > > design. If one adapter fails, simply schedule a time for > > > the system to A > > > > be taken down and have it replaced. Since you do not need  > > > to tell end : > > > > users about this server going, they will not care. >=20H > As per my last mail, thats what I already do. With the increased costs< > of the extra cards, to impliment FailSafe on top of LAN=20 > failover (so as H > I don't get a performance hit). What I would like as an option howeverD > would be to hot-swap the cards and then just have FailSafe on some > boxes (in the case of NICs). >=20  F Well, increased NIC cards are a few hundred $'s, so in most solutions, this is an insignificant cost.  B > >  With that project I worked on, using TCPware, we were able toG > > telnet to a server, start a monitor system type command to generate E > > activity, pull the associated NIC cable and the session continued A > > running after only about a 2-3 second pause. No errors and=20  > no loss of@ > > data. With TCPware, we could see that the NIC failed over=20 > properly. ThisA > > also supported fail-back as well i.e. when we re-connected=20  > the NIC cable = > > after a 2-3 second pause, the connection automatically=20  > failed back to > > the original port. >=20< > As per TCP/IP Services FailSAFE IP, and VMS' LAN Failover. >=20 > > @ > > > As I'm sure your aware FailSafe IP also gives you added=20
 > performance @ > > > benfits for your outgoing traffic, if there in the same=20 > subnet. Losing; > > > a card drops your performance. And yes the obvious=20  > workaround is toB > > > deploy FailSafe on top of LAN Failover, with the added cost. > > >  > > B > > As you indicated, the loss is in transmit only i.e. perhaps=20 > if you had a= > > big FTP background load, there might be some loss, but=20  > remember that the A > > overall load is also split across the other servers in the=20  > cluster asA > > well. I doubt end users would notice the impact of one NIC=20  > failing on7 > > one server in the cluster when its mate takes over.  >=20H > Users don't notice, nor do batch jobs, as I tend to impliment FailSAFEF > on top of LAN Failover. If I just had FailSAFE, then I would get theE > performance hit. And sure the users wouldn't notice, but large data C > transfers being generated by batch jobs in progress would notice.  >=20> > > > FC cards same issue, you lose performance, possible path > > > changes across > > > the cluster et al. > > >  > > A > > Heck, the 2Gb cards I have used for the last 2 years or so=20  > have not been , > > pushed at all - even with high IO loads. >=20@ > If that were true in all cases, it makes you wonder why VMS=20
 > Engineering . > are qualifing 4GB HBAs with Integrity boxes? >=20  D Part of the overall storage industry .. Have to keep up with storage vendor options.   7 > And indeed, support in VMS is already latent in F8.3.  >=20  - I know - I am one of the OpenVMS Ambassadors.    >=20H > The "QLogic ISP2432", a dual-port 4GB HBA and PCI-Express too, a shame4 > we can't use the hot-swap features of PCI-Express. >=20! > > Yes, there might be some path C > > changes, but that is transparent to applications and end users.  >=20@ > Sure it's transparent in terms of availability. In terms of=20
 > performance $ > it's not in a lot of environments. >=20> > If you've balanced for performance reasons a small number=20 > disks on to a G > specific HBA, that fails and gets the paths get pushed off to another D > HBA, and they stay there (or can only be moved to other busy HBAs)D > until you can drop the box, your application can certainly notice. >=20  E If your design includes a single HBA for any storage subset, then you . could have issues if that single HBA fails.=20  D Also, while there may be app's out there that can overload a 2GB HBA? before some other bottleneck is hit first, I certainly have not D encountered any - and that includes some very heavy IO intensive SANH clusters. I usually recommend staying away from dedicating HBA's in this way.  E > Of course, the answer is to simply to buy more HBAs, being that you * > know you can't hot-swap/add in new ones. >=20  H With any single HBA solution, your design and end users get hosed when aE failure occurs. If the failure occurs at 2:00AM, then by the time the E failure is analyzed, parts ordered and replaced (even with hot swap), H your solution has failed those users impacted during this time. Multiple- HBA's / NIC's etc are the best solution imho.   @ > > > So yes one can wait for the users/batch jobs to finish,=20
 > then drop a B > > > node, but it's not ideal and customers are left having to=20 > puchase more+ > > > hardware to mitigate for these times.  > > >  > > A > > That's what mission critical Customers do as part of their=20  > base design.B > > In most Cust environments I have seen, normal users tend to=20 > logout at B > > 5-8:00pm or they get disconnected for security reasons i.e.=20 > forgot to  > > logout before heading home.  > >  >=20D > I'm talking about trading systems supporting users and markets all9 > around the world. 9-5 local time isn't what it's about.  >=20  A Time is not important in this solution. As I stated earlier, this F solution provides capability to repair servers in prime time with zeroH application availability impact. The dual LAN/SAN adapters carry th load3 until the connections have moved to another server.   E > I'm more than familar with running active-active clusters and being G > able to drop a node, my issue is the hit while one is waiting to drop E > it. More hardware (which costs) helps here and can mostly solve the @ > problem, but hot-swapping would  be a nice option to have too. >=20  D I am not saying hot swap PCI is not a good feature - just that imho,H dual PCI options on active-active clustered servers using using standardC HW will likely be a cheaper overall solution than having to move to ; higher end servers that have the hot swap PCI capabilities.   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Apr 2006 15:59:07 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org/ Subject: Re: Spawn command in Asynchronous mode 3 Message-ID: <A3JO0vNp$djL@eisner.encompasserve.org>   l In article <1145939839.311844.227320@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, "Rajni" <rajni_chugh1@yahoo.com> writes:	 > Hi All,  > > > We want to run a C code from Uniface program  on OPen VMS in > asynchronous mode. >  > Platform - OpenVMS: > We are running a spawn command from the uniface program. > % > ;spawn_str = "%%spawn_str %%$LIST$"  > D > When I do spawn ----C pgm-----, it runs the program in synchronous > mode.  > H > But I want to run this C pgm in Asynch mode, as per the documentation,+ > if I use PIPE (-------)&, it doesnt work. 0 > ;spawn_str = "PIPE ( %%spawn_str %%$LIST$ ) &" > A > Could some one please let me know how to run it in asynch mode? E > Please let  me know what should be the spwan command syntax in this  > case.   A It took me a while to decipher what you were trying to do and why B it was failing.  The obscure syntax and the undocumented variables! you are using don't help matters.    As I understand things:   F The semicolon is a Uniface syntax that indicates that a system commandD is to be executed.  The text on the right hand side is passed to theE CLI for execution and the variable on the left hand side is populated " with the result of that execution.  A The %% notation allows for parameter substitution inside a quoted  string.   @ This construct allows for the synchronous execution of one shell command.  6 But you want asynchronous execution in the background.  = And so the obvious approach is to do synchronous execution of ? a shell command that will trigger tha asynchronous execution of  the background command(s).  C And that's what the PIPE (command-sequence) & syntax is intended to  accomplish.   > The reason this is failing is that the parent command is still@ synchronous.  Once its work is done, it will still terminate and> return control to Uniface.  If it spawns an asynchronous child6 process before returning, that child will be orphaned.  9 VMS does not allow orphaned subprocesses.  It kills them.   A The only solution I know of is to run a detached process instead.   4 $ RUN /DETACH /INPUT=disk:[dir]your-command-file.com; /OUTPUT=disk:[dir]your-log-file.log SYS$SYSTEM:LOGINOUT.EXE    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:05:16 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: Spawn command in Asynchronous mode , Message-ID: <444EB93B.DBCB77B3@teksavvy.com>  B If you are looking to spawn a subprocess from within a C program,    HELP RTL LIB LIB$SPAWN  E There is a flag you can set to have in "nowait" state (asynchronous). B Also, you can create mailboxes ( HELP SYS $CREMBX ) and feed thoseG mailboxes as input and output of the subprocess. You can write commands H to the mailbox to have them executed, and the subprocess lives on, so itE is more efficient since each command re-uses the existing subprocess.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 01:29:31 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com> Subject: Re: VMS732_ACRTL-V0300 ( Message-ID: <%1A3g.385$%N2.151@trnddc08>   David J. Dachtera wrote:1 > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:  >  >>The notes say  >>1 >>     Optional Kit Dependencies: VMS732_TZ-V0100  >>5 >>But this patch is not on the ITRC site.  What's up?  >  > F > Likely the forthcoming patch to address the impending change in time > zone rules for the U.S.   C Will they/can they release this patch *before* the fall DST change? D If so, how will it know to continue using the old/current rule until- the new rule takes effect next spring (2007)?   @ My understanding of the timezone rules is they tell the standard@ and DST displacement from UT, and the days (month, week and day)A and time of day of the changes.  Things like "DST takes effect at @ 2AM on the 1st Sunday of April and standard time takes effect atB 2AM on the last Sunday of October."  There is nothing there to say@ "This rule pertains from 1980 through 2006.  No DST changes fromC 1976 to 1979.  Last Sunday in Feb and 1st Sunday in October was the C rule from 1945 through 1975.  New rule takes effect in 2007..." [1]   @ One of my customers was asking about this recently, and I said IB was sure they would produce a patch for it, but probably not untilB after November, to prevent spurious use of the new rule a year tooC early.  Then a week later, HP released the ACRTL kit... :-(  trying  to make me look bad...  C Why an ACRTL kit?  Were the US rules hard-coded into the C RTL?  If > so, I hope the fix is to use the defined system rules instead!  B Shouldn't there also be fixes for all the other VMS versions?  VAX will need the new rules too!   --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 01:39:24 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com> Subject: Re: VMS732_ACRTL-V0300 ( Message-ID: <gbA3g.387$%N2.315@trnddc08>   John Santos wrote: > David J. Dachtera wrote: > 2 >> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >> >>> The notes say  >>> 2 >>>     Optional Kit Dependencies: VMS732_TZ-V0100 >>> 7 >>> But this patch is not on the ITRC site.  What's up?  >> >> >>G >> Likely the forthcoming patch to address the impending change in time  >> zone rules for the U.S. >  > E > Will they/can they release this patch *before* the fall DST change? F > If so, how will it know to continue using the old/current rule until/ > the new rule takes effect next spring (2007)?  > B > My understanding of the timezone rules is they tell the standardB > and DST displacement from UT, and the days (month, week and day)C > and time of day of the changes.  Things like "DST takes effect at B > 2AM on the 1st Sunday of April and standard time takes effect atD > 2AM on the last Sunday of October."  There is nothing there to sayB > "This rule pertains from 1980 through 2006.  No DST changes fromE > 1976 to 1979.  Last Sunday in Feb and 1st Sunday in October was the E > rule from 1945 through 1975.  New rule takes effect in 2007..." [1]  > B > One of my customers was asking about this recently, and I said ID > was sure they would produce a patch for it, but probably not untilD > after November, to prevent spurious use of the new rule a year tooE > early.  Then a week later, HP released the ACRTL kit... :-(  trying  > to make me look bad... > E > Why an ACRTL kit?  Were the US rules hard-coded into the C RTL?  If @ > so, I hope the fix is to use the defined system rules instead! > D > Shouldn't there also be fixes for all the other VMS versions?  VAX > will need the new rules too!   Forgot my footnote-   H [1] Rules made up.  I don't know how long the current US rules have beenG in effect.  I know the DST period was lengthened from about 6 months to H about 7 months, maybe in the 1980's.  ISTR that the US went on permanentB DST for a while in the mid 70's, to save energy.  (Lighting in theF winter for 9-5 businesses.  Workers would arrive and leave in daylightD all year.  On standard time, the sun sets at about 4-4:30 PM in New F England, and probably also in places like Chicago, at the eastern edgeC of time zones, but rises at about 7AM.  With permanent DST, the sun F would rise at about 8AM and set at about 5:30, nicely bracketing 9-5.)  H I think during World War 2, the US may have been on double DST, at leastF in the summer.  Not being a morning person, I think the easiest way to0 get people up earlier is to make the clocks lie!   --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:42:20 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> Subject: Re: VMS732_ACRTL-V0300 6 Message-ID: <444EDE0C.DD3C89AF@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   John Santos wrote: > [snip]E > Why an ACRTL kit?  Were the US rules hard-coded into the C RTL?  If @ > so, I hope the fix is to use the defined system rules instead!  G Well, I'm don't really know. I did, however, find out the hard way that E for C programs simply changing the translations of the SYS$TIMEZONE_* E LNMs is not enough. You must also change the value of the system cell G EXE$GQ_TDF (use "exa/time EXE$GQ_TDF" in SDA to see the current value).   H With all other automatic time changes turned off, this can be done using& the UTC$TIME_SETUP.COM procedure, ala:  B $ @SYS$MANAGER:UTC$TIME_SETUP.COM "" "TDF" 'TDF_MINS' 'TIME_DELTA'  H Where TDF_MINS represents the new value of SYS$TIMEZONE_OFFSET expressedH as minutes instead of seconds, and TIME_DELTA indicates how many minutesD the system clock should be advanced or retarded by, as in 60 or -60.G Then, to adjust the values of the SYS$TIMEZONE_* LNMs, invoke it again,  like so:  + $ @SYS$MANAGER:UTC$TIME_SETUP.COM "" "RULE"   G Note, however, that the sequence differs between CDT->CST and CST->CDT.    For CST->CDT, its:B $ @SYS$MANAGER:UTC$TIME_SETUP.COM "" "TDF" 'TDF_MINS' 'TIME_DELTA'+ $ @SYS$MANAGER:UTC$TIME_SETUP.COM "" "RULE"   G ...with TIME_DELTA expressed as the value 60 to advance the clock by 60  minutes.   For CDT->CST, its:+ $ @SYS$MANAGER:UTC$TIME_SETUP.COM "" "RULE" B $ @SYS$MANAGER:UTC$TIME_SETUP.COM "" "TDF" 'TDF_MINS' 'TIME_DELTA'  G ...with TIME_DELTA expressed as the value -60 to retard the clock by 60  minutes.  H In theory, the second sequence should work in both cases; however, in myC TIME_CHANGE.COM that I've developed, I used the differing sequences > because that's what made sense to me at the time. I'll have toE experiment with that on the hobbyist Alpha here at home and see if it  appears to make a difference.   D > Shouldn't there also be fixes for all the other VMS versions?  VAX > will need the new rules too!  ! That's what I was thinking, also.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.230 ************************                                                                                                                                                              