1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 27 Apr 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 233       Contents:8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix decimal point in OpenVMS Re: decimal point in OpenVMS decnet vs decnet over IP Re: decnet vs decnet over IP Re: decnet vs decnet over IP Re: decnet vs decnet over IP Re: decnet vs decnet over IP Re: File output like Unix E Re: Heads UP BRUDEN Announces the OpenVMS Bootcamp Uptime Scholarship E Re: Heads UP BRUDEN Announces the OpenVMS Bootcamp Uptime Scholarship E Re: Heads UP BRUDEN Announces the OpenVMS Bootcamp Uptime Scholarship E Re: Heads UP BRUDEN Announces the OpenVMS Bootcamp Uptime Scholarship E Re: Heads UP BRUDEN Announces the OpenVMS Bootcamp Uptime Scholarship / Re: Help Required With VAX 4000-500 Diagnostics  Re: hypothetical question  Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet& Re: Spawn command in Asynchronous mode Re: TIMEPROMPTWAIT problem Re: TIMEPROMPTWAIT problem) Re: Various comments (decus presentation) ) Re: Various comments (decus presentation) ) Re: Various comments (decus presentation) ) Re: Various comments (decus presentation) ) Re: Various comments (decus presentation) ) Re: Various comments (decus presentation)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 27 Apr 2006 06:15:38 -0500B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix 3 Message-ID: <4tTvNg6weXUg@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <mddslo0tcs5.fsf@panix5.panix.com>, Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:F > clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: > M >> Things that I dislike about DCL (these relate to 7.3-1 and prior versions, . >> I haven't upgraded to a later version yet): > 1 >> 	Tried renaming file.ext to just .ext lately ?  > O > That's simply the Unix shell convention for "invisible" files.  On Tops-20 it O > was a settable file attribute, not a magic way of naming files; does VMS have  > that?  >   J I guess I was just been too subtle. I wasn't referring to invisible files,L but DCL's default processing. If you omit a filename from a target filespec,4 then the filename is taken from the source filespec.  J So unless it has changed in recent versions, the following is what happens+ when you try to rename simon.test to .test:    $ create simon.test       Exit  $ rename/log simon.test .test I %RENAME-I-RENAMED, {deleted}SIMON.TEST;1 renamed to {deleted}SIMON.TEST;1   * You have to use tricks to rename the file.  H >> 	You can't do filename completion. (On bash, pressing TAB gives you aI >> 	list of filenames/directories matching what you have typed so far, or E >> 	just completes the filename/directory if there's only one match.)  > Q > Also in tcsh, the "TENEX C-shell".  This is one of the features of Tops-20 (and D > of TENEX before it) that I most sorely miss when working with VMS. > M > But then, there was a manager in the early history of VMS who swore that no = > feature from the 36-bit world would ever be allowed in VMS.  >   6 If that's the case, then VMS has suffered as a result.   Simon.   --  ; Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP I If Google's motto is "do no wrong", then how did we get Google Groups 2 ?    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Apr 2006 06:42:45 -0500B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix 3 Message-ID: <9kxHBfSnUJbq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <1146094463.265362.201570@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: >  > Simon Clubley wrote: >>* >> Two examples of more powerful commands:D >> 	grep (the Unix version of search) can do full regular expression >> 	pattern matching.  > A > Can it do something like $ SEARCH FILE.TYP WORD1,WORD2,... with C > /MATCH=(one of OR, NOR, AND, NAND, ...) Maybe it can ... I'm just & > asking but I think the answer is no. >   J Yes, that is a nice feature of search. You can achieve most (maybe all) ofH that with grep by feeding the output of one grep into another. (grep hasH the ability to output just a list of filenames that did, or didn't matchM a search string, and the /match=or ability is built in as part of the regular  expression functionality).   >>M >> Things that I dislike about DCL (these relate to 7.3-1 and prior versions, . >> I haven't upgraded to a later version yet): >>7 >> 	You can't edit commands across linewrap boundaries. / >> 	Has this been fixed in later VMS versions ?  > , > Isn't this more about the terminal driver? >   I Probably, but it's unbelievable that DCL _still_ cannot do this. Even the " Windows command shell can do this.   > D > Here's one for you: Ever try writing a SET DEFAULT program in Unix > shell script?  >   J Interestingly, I don't use SET DEFAULT/cd utilities on either VMS or Unix.  I When working in multiple directories, I tend on both VMS and Unix to have I multiple DCL/bash windows open, with the current directory in each window  set to a different directory.   I Also, it's a lot easier to change directories when you can just press Tab  to complete a directory name.   G > And another, though it's not DCL: VMS BACKUP will restore incremental I > save sets, but it deletes files that were not present during the latest F > incremental save operation. Does *any* other backup program do that? >   J VMS backup is also nice. I tend however on VMS and Unix to do full backups instead of incrementals.   >>E >> And yes, I know that bash is available for VMS. I am talking about  >> deficiencies within DCL.  >>	 >> Simon.  >> >> -- > >> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFPL >> If Google's motto is "do no wrong", then how did we get Google Groups 2 ? > ( > Good point. And it's "Don't be evil".  >   J I've mentioned previously that I replaced that with the variant above thatL I've seen used elsewhere because "don't be evil" sounded a bit OTT. However,O since you aren't the only person to mention it, I've put the original back. :-)    Simon.   --  ; Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP K If Google's motto is "don't be evil", then how did we get Google Groups 2 ?    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Apr 2006 05:49:25 -0700( From: "pbritto" <britto.paulo@gmail.com>! Subject: decimal point in OpenVMS B Message-ID: <1146142165.556556.42970@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>  G I am a Windows user, but some activities in my job demand to be done in E a Alpha Station running OpenVMS, in a nutshell, I am an OpenVMS basic  commands user.C So I am suspicious that a problem that is occouring is a problem of C decimal points. Like Regional Settings in Windows, how can I change A between commas and point to indicates decimal part of a number in  OpenVMS?   Thanks in advance    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Apr 2006 06:58:59 -0700 From: mckinneyj@saic.com% Subject: Re: decimal point in OpenVMS C Message-ID: <1146146339.537528.245440@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    pbritto wrote:I > I am a Windows user, but some activities in my job demand to be done in G > a Alpha Station running OpenVMS, in a nutshell, I am an OpenVMS basic  > commands user.E > So I am suspicious that a problem that is occouring is a problem of E > decimal points. Like Regional Settings in Windows, how can I change C > between commas and point to indicates decimal part of a number in 
 > OpenVMS?  A Depends on the program that you're running. If the program is the @ command interpretter (DCL) then you'll find that all numbers areD integers. Perhaps your suspicions are incorrect. Exactly what is the problem that you're observing?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:27:52 -0400 + From: Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> ! Subject: decnet vs decnet over IP 5 Message-ID: <e2qgso$u7f$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>   
 Questions:  ; What is the advantage of running DECNET over IP vs. DECNET?    Thanks in Advance.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 21:57:29 +0800 - From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> % Subject: Re: decnet vs decnet over IP * Message-ID: <4450CDC9.3050406@bigpond.com>   Chuck Aaron wrote: > Questions: > = > What is the advantage of running DECNET over IP vs. DECNET?  >  > Thanks in Advance. >   > One of the advantages is that when the network f'ckwits decide9 that they want an IP only network, your DECnet stuff will # continue to work with no changes...    Regards, Dave --  D David B Sneddon (dbs)  VMS Systems Programmer  dbsneddon@bigpond.comD Sneddo's quick guide ...     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/D DBS freeware ... http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:09:25 -0400 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> % Subject: Re: decnet vs decnet over IP I Message-ID: <8660a3a10604270709v3ba1c5bcsf6b7f27b2aee7d76@mail.gmail.com>   : On 4/27/06, David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> wrote: > Chuck Aaron wrote: > > Questions: > > ? > > What is the advantage of running DECNET over IP vs. DECNET?  > >  > > Thanks in Advance. > >  > @ > One of the advantages is that when the network f'ckwits decide; > that they want an IP only network, your DECnet stuff will % > continue to work with no changes...  > 
 > Regards, > Dave > --F > David B Sneddon (dbs)  VMS Systems Programmer  dbsneddon@bigpond.comF > Sneddo's quick guide ...     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/F > DBS freeware ... http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm >   = HAHAHAHA,. except I've seen it happen in more than one place.   + Took the words right out of my mouth, Dave.   A On the other hand, it's like the difference between "reality" and  "reality television".   D How these terms relate to the two methodologies mentioned is left as an exercise for the reader.    WWWebb --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Apr 2006 06:51:26 -0700 From: mckinneyj@saic.com% Subject: Re: decnet vs decnet over IP B Message-ID: <1146145886.850419.79360@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>  = > What is the advantage of running DECNET over IP vs. DECNET?   G Advanatage? probably none. But in worlds where nothing other than IP is C tolerated (as seem now frequently to be the case) it permits you to C continue to take advantage of DECnet's features even as the network . nazis seek to eradicate heretics on the wires.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:05:27 -0400 * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>% Subject: Re: decnet vs decnet over IP , Message-ID: <4450cfa8$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  8 "Chuck Aaron" <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> wrote in message/ news:e2qgso$u7f$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu...  > Questions: > = > What is the advantage of running DECNET over IP vs. DECNET?  >  > Thanks in Advance.   Sometimes it's the routers.    ------------------------------   Date: 27 Apr 2006 12:30:25 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: File output like Unix, Message-ID: <4bbrr1F1039ffU1@individual.net>  6 In article <44502BDC.7336BBCB@neoasrptahmlnionwk.net>,C 	"David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>  6 >> In article <al31aT8RqOvF@eisner.encompasserve.org>,H >>         koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:\ >> > In article <4b74vcF101da8U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> H >> >> Maybe, but he seems to be looking for an equivalent to the SolarisF >> >> "cat file1 > file2" which will make a duplicate copy of the fileH >> >> with a new name.  Which, as I said, is probably not what he wants,H >> >> but I have already had two students today alone do pretty much theG >> >> same thing.  They use a paragraph to ask a question that required  >> >> no more than a sentence!!  >> >H >> >    Actually, what I read between the lines is that he wanted pipes. >>  O >> Exactly!!  As I said, what he really wants probably isn't what he asked for. N >> I can't, for the life of me, understand why people don't just say what they9 >> really mean when they are looking for help like this!!  > H > Mostly, they don't sufficiently understand what they need, so they ask. > based on their best (limited) understanding.  B Sadly, that's not always the case.  I had a TA come to my office aF couple days ago.  After about 5 minutes of rambling, I determined thatE he had given the network cable from his office to another TA and thus F needed a new one.  I stopped him in mid-sentence and asked if that wasC what he wanted.  He said, "Yes" so I stepped into the next room and A got him one.  I was laughing about this in one of the Proffesor's E offices when he told me that prior to coming to my office this TA had I asked the Professor if I was in my office because he needed a new network  cable.  Go figure!!   ' Formal education is highly over-rated!!    bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:06:35 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGN Subject: Re: Heads UP BRUDEN Announces the OpenVMS Bootcamp Uptime Scholarship0 Message-ID: <00A54D49.341BF260@SendSpamHere.ORG>  o In article <1146086661.057256.157610@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Sue" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> writes:  >  > G >In speaking with Bruce via email today he has had over 70 people apply ) >for this scholarship which is wonderful.  > H >In case you are wondering last year at this time (4 weeks away from the< >boot camp) we were 50% full we are currently over 85% full.  F Wow... lots of geezers!  This is one instance where age discrimination is a good thing... I think.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:06:10 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.comN Subject: Re: Heads UP BRUDEN Announces the OpenVMS Bootcamp Uptime ScholarshipQ Message-ID: <OF8A343049.4427005D-ON8525715D.0047CAF0-8525715D.0047FA09@metso.com>   9 VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote on 04/27/2006 06:06:35 AM:   E > In article <1146086661.057256.157610@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, - > "Sue" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> writes:  > >  > > I > >In speaking with Bruce via email today he has had over 70 people apply + > >for this scholarship which is wonderful.  > > J > >In case you are wondering last year at this time (4 weeks away from the> > >boot camp) we were 50% full we are currently over 85% full. > H > Wow... lots of geezers!  This is one instance where age discrimination > is a good thing... I think.   / Just how true is the legend of the VMS geezers? C We should have a barchart posted by age/number of geezers after the 	 deadline.    >  > --2 > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > 6 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Apr 2006 13:32:12 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)N Subject: Re: Heads UP BRUDEN Announces the OpenVMS Bootcamp Uptime Scholarship, Message-ID: <4bbvesF10lab3U1@individual.net>  Q In article <OF8A343049.4427005D-ON8525715D.0047CAF0-8525715D.0047FA09@metso.com>,  	norm.raphael@metso.com writes:  >  > ; > VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote on 04/27/2006 06:06:35 AM:  > F >> In article <1146086661.057256.157610@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,. >> "Sue" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> writes: >> > >> >J >> >In speaking with Bruce via email today he has had over 70 people apply, >> >for this scholarship which is wonderful. >> >K >> >In case you are wondering last year at this time (4 weeks away from the ? >> >boot camp) we were 50% full we are currently over 85% full.  >>I >> Wow... lots of geezers!  This is one instance where age discrimination  >> is a good thing... I think. > 1 > Just how true is the legend of the VMS geezers? E > We should have a barchart posted by age/number of geezers after the  > deadline.   G I would be interested in knowing who wins and what their birthdate was. D Of course, I will be pretty dis-appointed if I then see I would have  won as I would have loved to go.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:39:49 -1300 4 From: Mike Rechtman <michael.rechtman.nospam@hp.com>N Subject: Re: Heads UP BRUDEN Announces the OpenVMS Bootcamp Uptime Scholarship& Message-ID: <4450F3D5.289FBCD3@hp.com>   norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:  > ; > VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote on 04/27/2006 06:06:35 AM:   1 > Just how true is the legend of the VMS geezers? E > We should have a barchart posted by age/number of geezers after the  > deadline.  >   ! OpenVMS support Ra'anana, Israel:  Three persons, all over 60F (I have the most chronological seniority at 62, and the least OpenVMS D support seniority -- started with VMS as a system mangler circa V4.7  -- RSTS before that...)B OTOH Guy Peleg started with Digital in our group, and as I've said before:   "I've got socks older than him."   Mike --  E --------------------------------------------------------------------- E Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that. ? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il* F Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home): 972-2-9908337  B   "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%"E ---------------------------------------------------------------------  -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----  Version: 3.1: GCM/CS d(-)pu s:+>:- a++ C++ U-- L-- W++ N++ K? w--- V+++$6 PS+ PE-- t 5? X- tv-- b+ DI+ D-- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:42:45 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGN Subject: Re: Heads UP BRUDEN Announces the OpenVMS Bootcamp Uptime Scholarship0 Message-ID: <00A54D6F.C82D90E7@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ] In article <4450F3D5.289FBCD3@hp.com>, Mike Rechtman <michael.rechtman.nospam@hp.com> writes:  >  >  >norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: >>  < >> VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote on 04/27/2006 06:06:35 AM: > 2 >> Just how true is the legend of the VMS geezers?F >> We should have a barchart posted by age/number of geezers after the >> deadline. >>   > " >OpenVMS support Ra'anana, Israel: >Three persons, all over 60 G >(I have the most chronological seniority at 62, and the least OpenVMS  E >support seniority -- started with VMS as a system mangler circa V4.7  > -- RSTS before that...) C >OTOH Guy Peleg started with Digital in our group, and as I've said 	 >before:  ! >"I've got socks older than him."   E Thanks for sharing that ... whew!  Don't bring them the Nashua if you  win! :)    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 05:03:28 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: Help Required With VAX 4000-500 Diagnostics, Message-ID: <445088A1.6A336995@teksavvy.com>   Gary Parker wrote:D > I don't like the sound of 'burned itself out', is this a game overG > situation for the CPU module? As far as I know I didn't leave the bus D > unterminated but did leave the machine running with the drive cage$ > containing two RF36s uninstalled.     H It doesn't matter if a drive slot is occupied or not.  The position of aC drive in the DSSI bus doesn't matter much. This of it like ethernet H where one unit sends a packet to another unit. What matters is that bothE ends of the bus have been terminated. One end is on the CPU card. The D bus then goes through the backpane feeding each drive slot, and thenG come to the external connector where you would have the terminator. (or  a cable to another box).  F When DEC FS installed 4000-200 upgrade to a 3600, he forgot to installH the terminator to the DSSI bus and the next morning, he had to come back and he swapped the CPU board.   H > My machine also has a KZQSA SCSI card in it (currently hosting a CDROMJ > and a DAT drive). If the DSSI controller turns out to be toast can I popI > some external SCSI hard drives on this chain and still use the machine?   G The problem with the DSSI machines is that the backpane doesn't provide F standard connectors. So you won't be able to plug in a SCSI disk sinceG there isn't a standard power connector available. The good news is that C the more recent backpanes had a mixed DSSI/SCSI backpane where each G "DSSI" connector was actually a dual DSSI/SCSI connector. The output of E the SCSI controller on the QBUS would then go to a secon connector on D the upper left side of the backpane and feed the SCSI signals to it.  F What you would then need is the special assemblies that hold the driveG AND have the special connector that not only plugs into the DSSI plugs, C but goes in "deeper" to pickup the SCSI signals instead of the DSSI % signals (and gets power from it too).   B If you look at the console module for the 500/600 series machines:  K DSSI Terminator Power Fuse (F3) Protects against shorts from the accidental & grounding of the DSSI cable power pin.  ! F3 = DSSI Terminator Power, 2.0 A  PN = 12-10929-06  9 it is at the lower right side of the back of the module.    
 more info:   F3 (+5 V, 2 A) 121092906: 3 	LEDs on both DSSI terminators (Bus 1) on the H3604 B 	console module are not lit; the DSSI terminator for Bus 0 is lit.  & SHOW DSSI or SHOW DEVICE commands show3 DSSI bus 0, but console displays message indicating . that DSSI bus 1 terminators are missing or not functioning.1 DSSI SHAC (Bus 1) test 5C fails (countdown number  11).    ! There is more infor in the manual ? http://www.computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dec94mds/454aamg1.pdf   H (There is even a section on testing the DSSI by connecting bus 0 and bus 1 together to do a loopback)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:35:42 +0300 7 From: "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> " Subject: Re: hypothetical question* Message-ID: <44509073@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  < "Paul Sture" <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> wrote in message4 news:2746f$44508287$50db5015$8878@news.hispeed.ch... > Bob Koehler wrote: > > In articleF <OFFB83821E.E4DFA236-ON8525715C.0058D5B4-8525715C.00595FC7@metso.com>, norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > > H > >>But if you Copy the saveset to tape, you lose all the special thingsH > >>BACKUP does with the tape to ensure readability later, like skipping > >>bad areas, for example.  > >>> > >>Among other things the /INTERCHANGE qualifier does is that > >>A > >>Normal error recovery is used to write magnetic tapes so that 8 > >>no bad records exist on the resulting magnetic tape. > >>2 > >>Copy would leave out that protection, as well. > >> > >  > > G > >    COPY uses standard magnetic tape writing techniques.  If a write I > >    fails it is retried up to 8 times, making the interrecord gap from J > >    the previous good write larger each time.  If the 8th attempt fails* > >    COPY returns the error to the user. > > I > >    BACKUP uses non-standard error handling techniques, depending more F > >    on its ability to recover data through CRC and GROUP, which are5 > >    already in the saveset if you made it on disk.  > > G > >    If you succeed in COPYing a saveset to tape, then BACKUP will be I > >    able to read it even if a few blocks become unreadable later, just D > >    as if those errors had been there when BACKUP wrote the tape. > > I > >    If BACKUP wrote the tape with its non-standard error handling COPY K > >    may not be able to get the saveset off of the tape as a single file. G > >    (Saveset Manager and the TCOPY utility know how to handle this.)  > > G > >    The real protection is built into the saveset.  BACKUP is simply H > >    willing to depend on that when you write the tape, COPY does not.8 > >    Either way it's there when BACKUP reads the tape. > > G > Interesting comments Bob. Conversely, on the rare occasions in recent @ > years when BACKUP has given up on reading a tape with too manyG > errors/retries (mostly old well used DLT IIIs in my examples), I have J > been able to use COPY to grab the whole saveset to disk, then use BACKUP
 > from there.  > H > I can only speculate that COPY isn't trying to understand the contentsH > in the same way as BACKUP is in this operation (rewinding and retrying5 > the reads, leading to shoewhining, for example???).     ? COPY just gets the data without caring about the contents. With = BACKUP every block's header written to the tape is CRC'd even 6 if /NOCRC was specified, when reading the block backupA verifies that the block's header is intact, if /CRC was specified 0 (the default), the data block is checked as well     > & > Your input on this would be welcome.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Apr 2006 09:11:45 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> # Subject: Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet C Message-ID: <1146154305.301030.270290@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    Dave Froble wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > Main, Kerry wrote: > >  [snips] E > > This is all true, Kerry. But how much money can x86's competition I > > afford to keep spending to stay ahead? The money being spent on x86's K > > evolution is huge. Sun is bleeding to death today and SPARC engineering H > > is a big bleeder. At some point, unless Sun is handed a miracle, theJ > > SPARC division will probably be sold. Whatever is on the SPARC drawingF > > board now might or might not ever get to the market. Chips fartherG > > along in the process probably will, and a return from that "shorter K > > term" market would be a reason Samsung or whoever might want to buy it. C > > Anyone willing to do a little homework should come to a similar  > > conclusion.  > H > The problem I see with such reasoning is that it's looking only at oneI > moment in time.  Yes, right now the AMD Opteron is doing well.  Do keep H > in mind that it's been called by some "little EV7".  But whoever is onG > top today has no guarantee of staying there.  Need I mention DEC, and 
 > even Intel?  >   > Hmm. I seem to be one of the few people here talking about theB *future*, so if you mean one moment of time = the future, then ok.  H > > The Reliability-Availability-Security bar ("goal") is and always hasK > > been at 100%. Scalability has a few different meanings depending on the J > > problem. As you say, IT users (customers) must continually re-evaluateC > > their IT service delivery. Likewise, IT solution providers must ? > > continually re-evaluate how to best spend their R&D dollar.  > I > Do you really want a world where everyone but one vendor just gives up? H >   If you believe that you cannot win, and never start a race, then the: > opponent wins by default.  Not everybody is a 'quitter'. >   F What quitter? To keep pouring money into a dry well is stubborn beyondE stupid if there's a clean cool spring running out on the back 40.. (I B hope that isn't too obscure, but just in case it is, think of "CPU$ instruction sets" instead of water).  L > >>For many of the these Customers, I would suggest that QA/testing monthlyG > >>security patches (Linux/Windows) with their primary applications is K > >>rapidly going to become unacceptable. And as we have seen by all of the J > >>issues in the last few weeks, if Cust's do not test these applicationsL > >>with these monthly security patches then they are open to all the issuesK > >>that hit the headlines. In a global market, a companies credibility can I > >>take a serious node dive if this happens to them or worse, their Cust E > >>data gets exposed because of one of these monthly security flaws.  > >> > >  > > H > > This is all true, today. But, *any* system can be made secure or not > > secure.  > D > Well some have had lots of time, and aren't a bit closer, possibly > further away.  >   G Which ones do you think are less-secure now than in a previous release? - I see new releases having tightened security.     K > >>>VMS is unusual because its owners keep trying to reinvent the "wheel", J > >>>then they drop their wheel when they see the "old" wheels rolling on,I > >>>so they start over and try to invent a different wheel again. In the . > >>>meantime, the big wheels keep on rolling. > >>>  > >>>  > >>) > >>Can you expand on what you mean here?  > >>I > >>Perhaps I missed an extract from an earlier thread, but this does not  > >>make much sense on its own.  > >> > >  > > @ > > Substitute "CPU" for "wheel". Neither Alpha nor Itanium wereC > > "revolutionary" technologies, they were attempts to advance and C > > redirect evolution. A true technology "revolution" will quickly G > > obsolete current technology. Money spent on Alpha and Itanium might % > > have been better spent elsewhere.  >  > Who should work on evolution?  >   A What? I'm not sure I follow. Intel and AMD (and many others*) are G "evolving" the chips for x86, and most of the software world is pushing F them for more. That's pretty much the thrust of what I've been talking about here.   F (*others: all of the advancements in materials, design, production and7 all of computer science helps "evolve" chip technology)   H > I think Alpha was a decent solution to the problems it was intended toG > address, and it did the job well.  The only reason Alpha is not alive H > today is because Compaq did not want to be in the CPU business, and ifE > they owned the Pentium, they'd still have killed it.  Alpha is dead K > because the people in charge didn't understand the business they were in.  > E > > DEC ignored Win-tel until it was too late. Too often history does  > > repeat itself. >  > That I'll agree with.  > 5 > What I won't agree with is the 'quitter' mentality.  >   G What quitter mentality? Take a hammer and start hitting yourself in the F head. See how long it takes before you think that maybe that was a bad/ idea. If you keep on hitting yourself, well,...   G > Where would AMD be today if they just figured Intel would control the I > CPU world and it was no use competing?  They could have concentrated on J > something else.  Lots of money in electronics.  But no, they believed inG > what they were doing, and they upset the hugh unbeatable Intel.  Just D > read that AMD has a twenty something precent share in last quarter0 > server shipments, up from 16 % or thereabouts. >     D AMD is helping push the x86 evolution forward. That's what I've saidD over and over again in this thread. Some here seem to want to ignore/ that and apparently others don't understand it.    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Apr 2006 08:41:08 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> # Subject: Re: OT: Sparc not dead yet C Message-ID: <1146152468.760395.284070@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>    Main, Kerry wrote: > > From: Doug Phillips [  >  > [snip ...] >  > >  > > ; > > > For many of the these Customers, I would suggest that  > > QA/testing monthlyI > > > security patches (Linux/Windows) with their primary applications is ? > > > rapidly going to become unacceptable. And as we have seen  > > by all of the ? > > > issues in the last few weeks, if Cust's do not test these  > > applications? > > > with these monthly security patches then they are open to  > > all the issues= > > > that hit the headlines. In a global market, a companies  > > credibility can @ > > > take a serious node dive if this happens to them or worse, > > their CustG > > > data gets exposed because of one of these monthly security flaws.  > > >  > > H > > This is all true, today. But, *any* system can be made secure or not > > secure.  > >  > G > That assumes you are aware of all the known issues. What happens when 5 > new failures and holes keep coming out every month?  > I > For companies that literally have hundreds and in some cases, thousands F > of X86 servers, how do you keep them all in sync and up to date when< > there are so many new issues being discovered every month? > J > Keep in mind that IT shops worth their salt will ensure that the patchesJ > for their main applications (especiually those with Cust data) are fully& > tested before releasing the patches. >     A So, you're saying that any system can *not* be made secure or not  secure.      > > A > > > > VMS is unusual because its owners keep trying to reinvent  > > the "wheel",A > > > > then they drop their wheel when they see the "old" wheels  > > rolling on, > > > > > so they start over and try to invent a different wheel > > again. In the 1 > > > > meantime, the big wheels keep on rolling.  > > > >  > > > >  > > > + > > > Can you expand on what you mean here?  > > > = > > > Perhaps I missed an extract from an earlier thread, but  > > this does not ! > > > make much sense on its own.  > > >  > > @ > > Substitute "CPU" for "wheel". Neither Alpha nor Itanium wereC > > "revolutionary" technologies, they were attempts to advance and C > > redirect evolution. A true technology "revolution" will quickly G > > obsolete current technology. Money spent on Alpha and Itanium might % > > have been better spent elsewhere.  > >  > A > So, do you consider x86-64 to be revolutionary or evolutionary?   G If you've read what I've written, you wouldn't ask. First, let me state E again: x86 is an instruction set. The hardware that runs x86 software A is independant from any other constraints. Now, the chips running A x86-64 evolved from x86-32 which evolved from x86-16 etc.etc.etc. D Whether CISC or RISC or Quantum or Organic. Whatever. The AMD64 chipA acts more like an Alpha than an 80286. So what. That's evolution.    > H > CPU bits-n-bytes wil continue to come and go. While I certainly do notH > expect that SPARC will make any breakthroughs in terms of market shareJ > (likely will see decrease), but I have no doubt it will be available forI > a long time in the future. Same goes for Alpha and PA-RISC and Power as  > well.  >   E Long time in the future? You mean like the VAX is now. Running things C that people can't or won't port on up to something newer? Filling a D niche need that will someday fade away but keeps hanging on like the smell of skunk on a wet dog?  G > As a server or even chip vendor, you could either spend years looking H > for some revolutionary technology to invest in or alternatively selectG > ones which have long lifetimes, offer relatively short ROI's and that ? > offer competitive performance to meet your Customers specific I > requirements. Note that I did not necessarily say leading performance - I > Sun did very well in the past with SPARC servers that certainly did not  > lead the pack. >   G I agree with this. It's pretty much what I've been saying. Now, look at @ Sun's financials, read the analysts' reports, and think forward.   > E > > DEC ignored Win-tel until it was too late. Too often history does  > > repeat itself. > >  > J > Absolutely. So did many other large companies like Sun and IBM. However,C > if you believe in this "all architectures get replaced over time" ( > philosophy, then what comes after X86? >   F Why does anything have to come after x86? It's an instruction set. AreF there missing instructions that the world can't live without? Too many? instructions to fit on a fast chip? Some unforeseen radical new B technology that can't be handled by specialized chips? What is theC technical problem with the x86 instruction set that needs fixing or  can't be fixed?   J > As one of our hockey analysts used to say about Wayne Gretzky - "Wayne'sJ > differentiator is that he seldom skates to where the puck is, but rather2 > skates to where he feels the puck is heading .." > D > And before you say X86 will never be replaceed by some alternative > architecture,   B x86 is an instruction set. An x86 compliant chip will run softwareG written for the x86-ABI.  That is a lot of software, and the capability D of that software is growing. To think of the x86 as PC-sized ignoresF the fact that most of the Big players like Oracle, SAP, name-your-own,  can now or soon will run on x86.  7 > keep in mind that it was only 10-12 years ago that if C > someone had suggested WordPerfect will be displaced by some other 8 > product, they would have been laughed out of the room. >  > :-)  >   E WordPerfect vs. Word isn't really a good analogy here, but it kind of D supports what I've been saying: "Follow the Money". Or as a buddy of+ mine puts it: "Money talks and sh*t walks."    ------------------------------    Date: 27 Apr 2006 06:17:46 -0700 From: dooleys@snowy.net.au/ Subject: Re: Spawn command in Asynchronous mode C Message-ID: <1146143866.009162.242280@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>   3 The startup procedures for decwindows does a lot of 0 asynchronous spawning, then continues with other8 stuff before checking/waiting for subprocess completion.8 I don't know if this approach could be used with uniface Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:47:34 +0200 , From: Albrecht Schlosser <ajs567@tiscali.de># Subject: Re: TIMEPROMPTWAIT problem , Message-ID: <u2pq2e.c2m.ln@news.hus-soft.de>   Richard B. Gilbert wrote:   I > IIRC, VMS 4.7 was "Orange (Chinese Red) Wall" not "Gray Wall".  Aren't  5 > we reaching back pretty close to twenty years here?   B Two examples from my "Orange (Chinese Red) Wall" from (Micro) VMS E V4.5/V4.6 (purchased with a MicroVAX II, about 1986), still standing  
 here :-) :    H VAX EDT Reference Manual, September 1984, Software Version: VAX/VMS V4.0  H VAX/VMS System Services Reference Manual, April 1986, Software Version:  VAX/VMS Version 4.4      Albrecht   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Apr 2006 09:26:41 -0700- From: "Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> # Subject: Re: TIMEPROMPTWAIT problem B Message-ID: <1146155201.105183.40980@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Richard B. Gilbert wrote:  > H > IIRC, VMS 4.7 was "Orange (Chinese Red) Wall" not "Gray Wall".  Aren't5 > we reaching back pretty close to twenty years here?   G I still have a complete v4.4 Orange wall (with a few updates thru 4.7), A VAX/VMS as well as MicroVMS including all of the "Guide to.." and C "Intruduction to.." sub-set plus complete VAX Basic and Dibol sets. D Pretty close to 20 years heck, it's exactly 20 years: v4.4 is Dated: April 1986 :-)  F Volume 7A, "Debugger Reference" is still in cellophane so I guess I've not used that one;-)  < I'd give the wall away but it still comes in handy at times.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 00:22:34 -0600 % From: "Dan Notov" <d9nno@comcast.net> 2 Subject: Re: Various comments (decus presentation): Message-ID: <2sWdnfSmqem1_s3ZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@comcast.com>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:4450068B.51F12BA9@teksavvy.com... > John Reagan wrote:K >> It is named Hewlett-Packard.  All the employees there have HP badges and . >> the buildings have HP logos on the outside. > F > The ambassador gave the name of a large Indian firm. It wasn't "HP".J > Just reporting what he said.  Perhaps the company was recently purchased > by HP and rebadged as "HP" ? > L The ambassador may be wrong. The company once known as Digital India became @ Digital GlobalSoft after the Compaq acquisition. It then became M Hewlett-Packard GlobalSoft until last year, when all outstanding shares were  I acquired by HP B.V. (Netherlands,) which is a wholly owned subsidiary of   HPQ.  L I believe in the past foreign (to India) companies could not own a majority  share in an Indian concern.   8 >> As for "half", well it depends on how you measure it. > J > I'd be more interested in knowing what parts of VMS are still "in house"D > and what parts are gone to India. I know that ALL-IN-1 was sent toJ > India, but that is a retired product in maintenance mode. Does this meanC > that any product already in india is a product that is slated for  > retirement ?  K Probably just a cheap shot veiled as wild speculation. I believe there are  K many ongoing projects within HP where development occurs around the clock.  % Heck, Digital did it back in the day.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 02:42:02 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 2 Subject: Re: Various comments (decus presentation), Message-ID: <44506785.A765E7D4@teksavvy.com>   Dan Notov wrote:M > The ambassador may be wrong. The company once known as Digital India became A > Digital GlobalSoft after the Compaq acquisition. It then became N > Hewlett-Packard GlobalSoft until last year, when all outstanding shares wereJ > acquired by HP B.V. (Netherlands,) which is a wholly owned subsidiary of > HPQ.  A You re-energised my memory. The ambassador used "Globalsoft", the ! company that now does 50% of VMS.     H It would still be interesting to know what Globalsoft does , doesn't do,D and whether there is a logic in deciding what goes to globalsoft and what stays with Digital (HP).   E And *IF* the basic contract with Globalsoft is to provide maintenance 9 and just qualification on new VMS releases for a suite of D applications/products, then any improvement request would need to beE formally justified and budgets approved so that the VMS group can pay  Globalsoft to do the work.  H In the past, a small bug or easy improvement could easily be done by theF likes of FredK ,Hoff ,Guy etc during their lunch hour, but the processD would now be much more formal so it becomes much harder to get small changes made to those products.   E Perhaps this is why applications such as MAIL, TPU etc haven't gotten F any work/improvements done to them in years and why one seems to hit a3 brick wall when making suggestions for improvement.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:46:02 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> 2 Subject: Re: Various comments (decus presentation); Message-ID: <c4f92$445092da$50db5015$11680@news.hispeed.ch>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > D >>RF is DSSI, not MFM and I could not find any reference to an RF54. >  > J > Sorry, my keyboard moved while I was talking. I meant RD54. And yeah, he; > mentioned it had gone on EBAY for that ridiculous amount.  > G > For some people paying $12k for a replacement disk would be less than  > having to change the system.  H Sheesh! To think that I turned down an offer of one at 100 UKP about 10  years ago ... :-(    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 08:37:46 -0400 3 From: "Peter Weaver" <newsonly@weaverconsulting.ca> 2 Subject: Re: Various comments (decus presentation)9 Message-ID: <zW24g.1701$1V4.137891@news20.bellglobal.com>   ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:44500D37.BC7B5357@teksavvy.com... >...B > (Note, I had told the organisers to bring duct tape to cover my  > mouth,+ > and they didn't. So it is their fault :-)   D That gave me a great idea, but I checked the website of the place I D got the flashlights made and they do not do custom printing on duct 	 tape. :-(    >...C > When a speaker does insist that people ask questions to make the  	 > session ( > "interactive", why not ask questions ?  G I never said there was anything wrong with asking questions, just that  A I noticed the person trying to count how many questions you were  E asking gave up when the person sitting next to him refused to remove  " his shoes and socks to help. :):)    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:27:23 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>2 Subject: Re: Various comments (decus presentation)2 Message-ID: <fx44g.6908$A91.6656@news.cpqcorp.net>   John Reagan wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: ! >> Oh, another thing I forgot....  >>J >> A VMS ambassador confirmed that about half of VMS engineering is now in0 >> India. Forget the name of the company there,  > K > It is named Hewlett-Packard.  All the employees there have HP badges and  - > the buildings have HP logos on the outside.   H    Both John and I spent several days at the Electronic City HP site in F Bangalore, FWIW.  We were part of a small team that was working with, G presenting to, and learning from our HP OpenVMS Engineering colleagues  G working at the Bangalore sites.  We had similar meetings with HP folks  ? working in a number of other countries and other local offices.   G    Many countries have a specific HP entity operating within, that's a  I part of the the basic legal requirements around organizing and operating  # most any multinational corporation.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:17:59 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>2 Subject: Re: Various comments (decus presentation)2 Message-ID: <ro44g.6907$ja1.6593@news.cpqcorp.net>   JF Mezei wrote:   J > I'd be more interested in knowing what parts of VMS are still "in house"D > and what parts are gone to India. I know that ALL-IN-1 was sent toJ > India, but that is a retired product in maintenance mode. Does this meanC > that any product already in india is a product that is slated for  > retirement ?  C There is active development of several components in India besides  F handling maintenance items.  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