1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 29 Apr 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 236       Contents: AS1000 ev4 mb and ev5 cpu  Re: Capturing console activity Re: Capturing console activity Re: Capturing console activity Re: Capturing console activity Re: Capturing console activity Re: Capturing console activity RE: Capturing console activity8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix Debugging a crashing editor  Re: Debugging a crashing editor  Re: Debugging a crashing editor  Re: decnet vs decnet over IP Re: decnet vs decnet over IPE Re: Is OpenVMS certified yet for 64-way Hard partitions (GS1280 M64). ( Re: Need help with stalled printer queue( Re: Need help with stalled printer queue( Re: Need help with stalled printer queue Re: OT: FAA goes Linux Re: OT: FAA goes Linux- Re: OT: Intels quickens cadence for new 8086s $ Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel$ Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel$ Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel$ Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel$ Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 28 Apr 2006 13:34:29 -0700' From: "syslost" <wm.reynolds@gmail.com> " Subject: AS1000 ev4 mb and ev5 cpuC Message-ID: <1146256469.848968.214560@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>    On an Alphaserver 4/266   ? Can I put an ev5/400 cpu board, 54-24799-01 into an ev4/266 mb,  54-23297-04?   I'll be running VMS 7.3-1    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:26:26 +0200 3 From: Wilm Boerhout <w4OLD.boerhout@PAINTplanet.nl> ' Subject: Re: Capturing console activity 5 Message-ID: <44525e62$0$4308$ba620dc5@nova.planet.nl>   3 glen.thompson@gmail.com wrote on 28-4-2006 19:45... * > System: OpenVMS 7.2 on a Vaxstation 4000 > I > Our system console is a Decwriter printing terminal because the log was I > required many years ago by our internal audit department.  We'd like to H > get rid of the Decwriter and replace it with one of our spare VTs.  IsF > there anyway to automatically capture all the activity on the systemI > console?  I'd like an electronic version of what is currently on paper, 7 > including both operator input and output displayed.     ) Would the auditing dept. settle for this:   H Connect a PC to the console through a serial cable (COM port); start up : a terminal emulator that allows session logging to a file.  A Several Terminal Emulators will do this, among them the good old   Pathworks VT320 TE.    /Wilm    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:20:13 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>' Subject: Re: Capturing console activity 1 Message-ID: <x1t4g.6973$aR1.598@news.cpqcorp.net>    glen.thompson@gmail.com wrote:* > System: OpenVMS 7.2 on a Vaxstation 4000 > I > Our system console is a Decwriter printing terminal because the log was I > required many years ago by our internal audit department.  We'd like to H > get rid of the Decwriter and replace it with one of our spare VTs.  IsF > there anyway to automatically capture all the activity on the systemI > console?  I'd like an electronic version of what is currently on paper, 7 > including both operator input and output displayed.     C    Not unsurprisingly, there are basically no brains within a dumb  A terminal -- that particular hardware pejorative didn't come from  H anywhere strange, of course.  :-)  There are various console management B software packages listed in the OpenVMS FAQ, and various of these B packages can potentially provide the record-keeping that auditing G departments can request, as well as additional features such as secure  $ network-based remote console access.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:37:05 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> ' Subject: Re: Capturing console activity E Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0604281229430.19111@localhost.localdomain>   2 On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 glen.thompson@gmail.com wrote:  F > Our system console is a Decwriter printing terminal because the log F > was required many years ago by our internal audit department.  We'd B > like to get rid of the Decwriter and replace it with one of our ? > spare VTs.  Is there anyway to automatically capture all the  E > activity on the system console?  I'd like an electronic version of  G > what is currently on paper, including both operator input and output   > displayed.  A I asked a similar question way back in 1999 in the DECUServe VMS  > conference, topic 2988 (telnet://eisner.encompasserve.org/ or G http://eisner.encompasserve.org).  More or less, the answer was "write   something to do what you want.  D Since you already have a VMS system, it seems to me that everything E that gets sent there (except system crashes) already gets written to  G SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG.  So you must be interested in also recording  + interactive sessions on the system console.   G One solution, which comes to me now but didn't 7 years ago, is to turn  G on "autoprint" mode on the VT and run a cable from the VT printer port  ? back to the host, where it gets read and saved to a file via a  ( detached COPY LTAx: LOGFILE.LOG command.   - Rob      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:56:20 -0400 & From: Thomas Wirt <twnews@kittles.com>' Subject: Re: Capturing console activity * Message-ID: <44526554.6090805@kittles.com>   Wilm Boerhout wrote:5 > glen.thompson@gmail.com wrote on 28-4-2006 19:45...  > + >> System: OpenVMS 7.2 on a Vaxstation 4000  >>J >> Our system console is a Decwriter printing terminal because the log wasJ >> required many years ago by our internal audit department.  We'd like toI >> get rid of the Decwriter and replace it with one of our spare VTs.  Is G >> there anyway to automatically capture all the activity on the system J >> console?  I'd like an electronic version of what is currently on paper,8 >> including both operator input and output displayed.   >  > + > Would the auditing dept. settle for this:  > J > Connect a PC to the console through a serial cable (COM port); start up < > a terminal emulator that allows session logging to a file. > C > Several Terminal Emulators will do this, among them the good old   > Pathworks VT320 TE.   F This is a great use for an old laptop that is too slow to do anything ? else.  We do this on one of our 4 Alphas and move it as needed.    Thomas Wirt  Operations Manager Kittle's Home Furnishings  >  > /Wilm    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:10:14 -0400 / From: "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> ' Subject: Re: Capturing console activity G Message-ID: <8660a3a10604281310n319b45e9jb036b085b2d847@mail.gmail.com>   @ On 4/28/06, Wilm Boerhout <w4OLD.boerhout@paintplanet.nl> wrote:5 > glen.thompson@gmail.com wrote on 28-4-2006 19:45... , > > System: OpenVMS 7.2 on a Vaxstation 4000 > > K > > Our system console is a Decwriter printing terminal because the log was K > > required many years ago by our internal audit department.  We'd like to J > > get rid of the Decwriter and replace it with one of our spare VTs.  IsH > > there anyway to automatically capture all the activity on the systemK > > console?  I'd like an electronic version of what is currently on paper, 7 > > including both operator input and output displayed.  > + > Would the auditing dept. settle for this:  > I > Connect a PC to the console through a serial cable (COM port); start up < > a terminal emulator that allows session logging to a file. > B > Several Terminal Emulators will do this, among them the good old > Pathworks VT320 TE.  >  > /Wilm  >   F You'll also have the added benefit of not having your system hang when9 the DECwriter jams or runs out of paper during a weekend.    :-)    WWWebb --C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:00:13 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: Capturing console activity , Message-ID: <44527444.26E39D71@teksavvy.com>   glen.thompson@gmail.com wrote:I > Our system console is a Decwriter printing terminal because the log was I > required many years ago by our internal audit department.  We'd like to H > get rid of the Decwriter and replace it with one of our spare VTs.  IsF > there anyway to automatically capture all the activity on the systemI > console?  I'd like an electronic version of what is currently on paper, 5 > including both operator input and output displayed.   H Instead of a VT, get another computer that runs a terminal emulation and logs stuff to disk. C Or set the VT to always aut-print, and send the output of the print F connector to a serial port in your VAX with a program that just copies whever comes in to a log file.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:38:03 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> ' Subject: RE: Capturing console activity T Message-ID: <FA60F2C4B72A584DBFC6091F6A2B86840135774A@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----C > From: glen.thompson@gmail.com [mailto:glen.thompson@gmail.com]=20  > Sent: April 28, 2006 1:46 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com % > Subject: Capturing console activity  >=20 >=20* > System: OpenVMS 7.2 on a Vaxstation 4000 >=20@ > Our system console is a Decwriter printing terminal because=20
 > the log was ? > required many years ago by our internal audit department. =20  > We'd like toH > get rid of the Decwriter and replace it with one of our spare VTs.  IsF > there anyway to automatically capture all the activity on the systemB > console?  I'd like an electronic version of what is currently=20 > on paper, 9 > including both operator input and output displayed. =20  >=20	 > Thanks,  > glen >=20 >=20   Glen,=20  H There are a number of commercial console logging options available. TheyC allow all sorts of console recording, remote management, reporting, C event escalation based on console keywords, and other features like H backing up console activity for trackability over extended periods. MostH will work with any asci console e.g. HSG disk controller, network router logging   
 Reference:  $ http://www.tditx.com/ - ConsoleWorks  G http://www3.ca.com/Solutions/Product.aspx?ID=3D1210 - UniCenter Console  Management for OpenVMS  H http://www.robomon.com/products/products_detail_robocentral.htm - Heroix RoboCentral   B http://www.vsm.com.au/software/opercon.shtml - OperCon for OpenVMS     Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:54:47 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix 2 Message-ID: <HFs4g.6970$oo1.1734@news.cpqcorp.net>   Simon Clubley wrote:  N > Would you like to offer any comments on editing past line wrap boundaries...  G    This behaviour is a long-standing limitation of the terminal driver  D implementation of command line recall.  (Embedded tabs also tend to H derail the editing, but I digress.)  My usual fix is to set my terminal H window rather wider than average -- brute force, but it does reduce the  exposure to this.   D    I don't know of any current plans to enhance the terminal driver C within this area, as these are non-trivial changes to the terminal  I driver -- the driver currently knows about what is in its active buffer,  B and not about multiple-line recall.  (Remember the "fun" when you E established a SET HOST connection from a V4 system back to V3?  That  D worked as a way to get one-line command line recall on a V3 system, G since you were really interacting with the V4 terminal driver.  That's  % all part of all this implementation.)   H    I'm tempted to post a list of where I'd (personally) tend to risk or H would simply break upward-compatibility -- areas to overhaul that would E fix some of my longstanding frustrations with OpenVMS and with other  I operating systems -- over in the blog.  Having application compatibility  B is a subtly two-edged construct, of course -- if these areas were G altered, existing applications would likely fail.  I've obviously been  H posting around the edges of that list with a few of the recent postings.  0 >...or tab completion of directories/filenames ?  G    Arguably feasible, but the requirements certainly get a little more  E interesting with logical name translations.  This obviously involves  H hooking DCL and the terminal driver and the file system together rather ? more tightly, and all three of these are certainly three of my  E candidates for the aforementioned list.  "Roto-tilling" any of these  C three tends to break application code, as various folks have found.   E    As for a variant on filename completion, there was an interesting  C DWIM (Do What I Mean) command interface project with an old system  E monitoring package, VAXsim.  (Some code from Stan Rabinowitz, IIRC.)  I I've not seen a similar operating system command interface in widespread  E use that provides similar DWIM features.  (It'd be a little scary to  H have a DWIM batch procedure implementation, in my estimation.  One typo H could cause complete chaos.  Only slightly less scary than having a UDP * connection into a telepresence waldo.  :-)      --   G    If y'all were to make a formal request for a changed or new OpenVMS  G feature -- whether a relational-based file system with integrated file  D metadata support, better processing of Unix-style hidden files, DCL E filename completion, DCL DWIM, or otherwise, the business management  F team would most certainly be interested in discussing it.  The formal E requests are how these and other new coding efforts are instantiated  ! into the engineering work queues.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:12:15 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix 2 Message-ID: <3Ws4g.6972$RQ1.3430@news.cpqcorp.net>   BobH wrote:   6 > How do you feel about the way the Mac OSs handle it?  F    Current instances of that particular specimen (eg: Apple Macintosh C Intel Core Duo OS X, or otherwise) are not presently available for  A direct electronic and surgical examination within the local zoo.  L Discussions of potential remediation are beyond the scope of this newsgroup.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:26:10 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix E Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0604281211340.19111@localhost.localdomain>   + On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Bill Gunshannon wrote:   4 > In article <m3r4g.6963$mM1.1588@news.cpqcorp.net>,1 > 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes:  >>D >>    Extension-based file typing is for kiddie-toy file systems -- D >> and yes, I do include those file systems of OpenVMS, Windows and F >> Linux/Unix and most every other current operating system available  >> here. > A > Why include Unix?  In Unix, no filename (or extension) has any  F > implicit meaning.  Applications may impart meaning, but the OS just 
 > don't care.   , I think that the same is true in VMS or RSX.  E > (Hint: ever "cat"ed a binary file to your terminal with disastrous  ' > results or opened a directory in vi?)   ( Done as easily in VMS or RSX as in unix.  G It is, however, much more common for VMS and RSX based applications to  ? expect a default filename extension:  If you assemble FOO, the  D assembler expects FOO.MAR or FOO.MAC and creates FOO.OBJ.  (So what F happens in unix if you cc FOO?  Does it compile FOO?  Or FOO.c?  What C does it create?  Is this better, worse, or just different from VMS  	 and RSX?)   F (MS) Windows, on the other hand, takes extension-based file typing to D another level (higher or lower, depending on your opinion).  Simply E invoking FOO.DOC runs MSWORD (for example) without you invoking Word   at all.   B As I recall, Hoff was arguing in favour of having the file system B examine the file a la the unix file command, and then running the ( correct application based on the result.   Hmm.  It is not April 1.  G Windows already does that, at least for .EXE/.COM/.BAT.  A *bad* idea,  D IMO.  I don't need a .TXT file (which really contains an executable 3 image) to run directly instead of invoking notepad.    JMO    - Rob      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)6                                    (780)437-3367 (FAX)3                                    http://gmcl.com/    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:16:56 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix 2 Message-ID: <ISt4g.6975$tV1.5079@news.cpqcorp.net>   Rob Brown wrote:  D > As I recall, Hoff was arguing in favour of having the file system D > examine the file a la the unix file command, and then running the * > correct application based on the result. >  > Hmm.  It is not April 1. > I > Windows already does that, at least for .EXE/.COM/.BAT.  A *bad* idea,  F > IMO.  I don't need a .TXT file (which really contains an executable 5 > image) to run directly instead of invoking notepad.   E    I'm certainly not in favor of "sniffing" the comments of the data  H stream within the file, which is where published reports have indicated I several of the Windows security problems have arisen, but of maintaining  ? metadata identifying the file in parallel with the data stream.   H    Printers have been trying similar sniffing tasks for some years, too.  G    I'm positing the implementation of metadata that can be maintained,  # audited, and displayed as required.   C    I'm also for centralizing the whole mechanism, too, rather than  C having individual applications trying to perform security-relevant  G tasks.  The whole character-suffix mapping into a list of applications  G is, well, really ugly.  Even MIME typing is certainly slightly cleaner.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:44:13 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix : Message-ID: <JKWdnWZ8Ab4T7c_ZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > Rob Brown wrote: > E >> As I recall, Hoff was arguing in favour of having the file system  E >> examine the file a la the unix file command, and then running the  + >> correct application based on the result.  >> >> Hmm.  It is not April 1.  >>J >> Windows already does that, at least for .EXE/.COM/.BAT.  A *bad* idea, G >> IMO.  I don't need a .TXT file (which really contains an executable  6 >> image) to run directly instead of invoking notepad. >  > F >   I'm certainly not in favor of "sniffing" the comments of the data J > stream within the file, which is where published reports have indicated K > several of the Windows security problems have arisen, but of maintaining  A > metadata identifying the file in parallel with the data stream.  > I >   Printers have been trying similar sniffing tasks for some years, too.  > H >   I'm positing the implementation of metadata that can be maintained, % > audited, and displayed as required.  > K >   I'm also for centralizing the whole mechanism, too, rather than having  J > individual applications trying to perform security-relevant tasks.  The G > whole character-suffix mapping into a list of applications is, well,  ? > really ugly.  Even MIME typing is certainly slightly cleaner.  >  >   C I haven't followed Macintosh and its operating systems closely but  C didn't  files, at least at one time, have both a "data fork" and a  D "resource fork"?   ISTR that the resource fork was, or contained, a E pointer to the application that created the file while the data fork   contained pointers to the data.   ? I'm not certain that files can be "typed" unambiguously in any  F reasonable way.  Sooner or later, you'll be forced to allow a type of F "other".  And if there are 2^32 possible types, is that going to help 2 anyone understand what 2^32-12 of those types are?  G Yes, extensions are a mess, especially across differing platforms, but  2 they are a mess that we cope with reasonably well.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:53:11 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix E Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0604281342250.20153@localhost.localdomain>   ( On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Hoff Hoffman wrote:  D >  One of the more "fun" areas of OpenVMS is a ".C" extension -- is C > that a C source file or the third saveset in a classic VMSINSTAL   > installation kit?  > F >  And like Linux and Unix, many (most?) OpenVMS applications do have F > default extensions and related assumptions -- an extension of .O or F > of .OBJ is indicative of a compiler object file, for instance.  But D > here I ask "why?". "Why is .O or .OBJ an object file?"  Why do we F > use the convention of a period and a few characters to identify the B > file contents?  Yes, we've always do "it" that way, but why not G > uniquely identify the construct as an object file, regardless of the  B > particular filename chosen?  Why not implement and use metadata  > beyond the filename?  F You make good points, and it is all well and good for the host system D to know what kind of file "x" is, but it is even more important for A the user and the system to agree about what kind of file "x" is.  F Whatever metadata is used by the system to identify the filetype must D be presented to the user somehow.  If not by the filename, then how?  F I had really hoped to read your webpage on this topic before all this B discussion started :-(, so my apologies for not having all of the  background.    - Rob      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:57:24 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix , Message-ID: <4452739C.4EDC752B@teksavvy.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: F >    Extension-based file typing is for kiddie-toy file systems -- andI > yes, I do include those file systems of OpenVMS, Windows and Linux/Unix ? > and most every other current operating system available here.     C Wow, I never expected to see a statement such as this from you !!!!   E In fairness to VMS, it does have a sophisticated file typing with the B RMS semantics. Alas, it was only used for DDIF documents and never! developped to its real potential.   ; So it leaves the MAC as the only one with real file typing.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:01:53 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix 2 Message-ID: <Rwu4g.6976$mM1.3567@news.cpqcorp.net>   Richard B. Gilbert wrote:   E > I haven't followed Macintosh and its operating systems closely but  E > didn't  files, at least at one time, have both a "data fork" and a  F > "resource fork"?   ISTR that the resource fork was, or contained, a G > pointer to the application that created the file while the data fork  ! > contained pointers to the data.   H    And I'm thinking of something a step or two beyond that.  The forked G or threaded files allowed such things as multiple binary images within  H one file, of course.  But why even bother with the concept of a "file", E and why not simply have a database where a "file" is simply a way to  D uniquely identify and to gather a particularly set of data records? C This all looks a whole lot like a basic database search, after all.   A > I'm not certain that files can be "typed" unambiguously in any  H > reasonable way.  Sooner or later, you'll be forced to allow a type of H > "other".  And if there are 2^32 possible types, is that going to help 4 > anyone understand what 2^32-12 of those types are?  G    Who said that a file could or would have just one type?  That seems  G rather limiting, of course -- it might well be useful to have multiple  I types for one file, or have one file report different types depending on  G how you selected or defaulted your particular search.  A C source file  1 is certainly one you that could print, after all.   D    The construct of a metadata type then becomes one of permissible C tasks or applications.  (I've been a fan of making the data itself  G preeminent, and the applications secondary.  XML really helps here, of   course.)  H    Longwords have basically been replaced by GUIDs, too, and GUIDs mean > you can avoid the need to involve a central issuing authority.    I > Yes, extensions are a mess, especially across differing platforms, but  4 > they are a mess that we cope with reasonably well.  A    But are we simply accepting of the status quo or of computing  ' history, or can we really do no better?    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:54:56 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix 2 Message-ID: <06042815545656_20274C9D@antinode.org>  B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)  H > [...] (But don't forget that to Unix the filename/filetype combinationF > is just a string of characters - as with ODS-5 now, file.tar.gz is a! > perfectly valid Unix filename).   F    You're kidding yourself if you think that ODS5 does not distinguishG between a file name and a file type (extension) in exactly the same way B as ODS2.  ODS5 accepts dots in names, but there's still always oneB special dot.  Look at the output from a DIRECTORY command for yourF "file.tar.gz" to demonstrate the difference between "." (non-last) and "." (last).   G    By the way, since TCPIP V5.4 - ECO 5, has anyone done anything about A the highly annoying behavior of the FTP server when handling ODS5 F extended file names?  (Or, has anyone found any other FTP server which? can't understand the names it provides in its own LIST output?)   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Apr 2006 18:46:09 -0500B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix 3 Message-ID: <Is2qWCUoV$om@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <06042815545656_20274C9D@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: D > From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) > I >> [...] (But don't forget that to Unix the filename/filetype combination G >> is just a string of characters - as with ODS-5 now, file.tar.gz is a " >> perfectly valid Unix filename). > H >    You're kidding yourself if you think that ODS5 does not distinguishI > between a file name and a file type (extension) in exactly the same way D > as ODS2.  ODS5 accepts dots in names, but there's still always oneD > special dot.  Look at the output from a DIRECTORY command for yourH > "file.tar.gz" to demonstrate the difference between "." (non-last) and
 > "." (last).  >   E Thanks for the pointer, but I was aware of that. I threw in the ODS-5 H reference to stop a "look! look! VMS can do that now too!" type responseI when pointing out that the Unix method allows, for example, multiple dots  in filenames. :-)   J As for Hoff's suggestions of filing formal change requests through support/ channels, I will do exactly that in a few days.   K Hoff, is there anything on the request that I should include to ensure that + it reaches the correct location within HP ?    Simon.   --  ; Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP K If Google's motto is "don't be evil", then how did we get Google Groups 2 ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 23:11:42 -0400 * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix * Message-ID: <4452d96f@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  2 "Rob Brown" <mylastname@gmcl.com> wrote in message? news:Pine.LNX.4.61.0604281211340.19111@localhost.localdomain...   B > > Why include Unix?  In Unix, no filename (or extension) has anyG > > implicit meaning.  Applications may impart meaning, but the OS just  > > don't care.  > . > I think that the same is true in VMS or RSX. >        .DIR    G > (MS) Windows, on the other hand, takes extension-based file typing to E > another level (higher or lower, depending on your opinion).  Simply F > invoking FOO.DOC runs MSWORD (for example) without you invoking Word	 > at all.  >        As will CDE    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 00:51:14 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix , Message-ID: <4452F0AE.548FE7FD@teksavvy.com>   re: File types  E Note that ALLIN1 had document types stored separately from the actual E file.  However, when importing/exporting files between VMS and the A1 H file cabinet, certain file types were recognized and the associated file processing applied.   E And for one type of file, you could define multiple "handlings". (for 0 instance, text files edited by WPSPLUS, TPU etc)      E Personally, if the VMS engineers are open to new file system ideas, I F would like RMS to natively handle URLs, as well as automatically store5 the URL of original copy of a file when it is copied.   
 for instance:   N copy ftp://ftp.chocolate.com/recipes/chocolate_cake.txt   []chocolate_cake.txt  s dir/full chocolate_cake.txt would reveal that the file came from ftp://ftp.chocolate.com/recipes/chocolate_cake.txt    Also, one should be able to :    set file/enter chocolate.txt3 ftp://ftp.chocolate.com/recipes/chocolate_cake.txt    G and any access to "chocolate.txt" would automatically retrieve the file  from the remote system.    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 21:34:51 +0000 (UTC) 2 From: Sidney Cammeresi <sac@cheesecake.org.nospam>$ Subject: Debugging a crashing editor7 Message-ID: <slrne552jr.mqq.sac@unakite.cheesecake.org>   D I've been using Linux and UNIX for about ten years now, but recentlyE became interested in seeing what all the fuss is about regarding VMS,  so please try to be nice.  :)   D I installed OpenVMS in SimH and have been playing around, but havingG use vi on UNIX for ten years, I just cannot deal with any other editor, C so I downloaded some VMS binaries of vim.  I got them installed and ' working, but then they stopped working.   I It starts to start up (and stuff like vim -h works), but then it crashes,  saying   		Vim: Caught deadly signal BUS  		Vim: Finished.  G I can't say `I didn't change anything important' given the new, foreign H environment that VMS is to me, so I'm looking for some help in debuggingG the problem.  (On Linux, I'd fire up gdb, strace, etc., but I am pretty  lost on VMS at present.)   Thanks,    --   Sidney CAMMERESI http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:28:05 -0700 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>( Subject: Re: Debugging a crashing editor0 Message-ID: <C0780125.1EA4E%roktsci@comcast.net>  I On 4/28/06 2:34 PM, in article slrne552jr.mqq.sac@unakite.cheesecake.org, 5 "Sidney Cammeresi" <sac@cheesecake.org.nospam> wrote:   F > I've been using Linux and UNIX for about ten years now, but recentlyG > became interested in seeing what all the fuss is about regarding VMS,  > so please try to be nice.  :)  > F > I installed OpenVMS in SimH and have been playing around, but havingI > use vi on UNIX for ten years, I just cannot deal with any other editor, E > so I downloaded some VMS binaries of vim.  I got them installed and ) > working, but then they stopped working.  > K > It starts to start up (and stuff like vim -h works), but then it crashes,  > saying >  > Vim: Caught deadly signal BUS  > Vim: Finished. > I > I can't say `I didn't change anything important' given the new, foreign J > environment that VMS is to me, so I'm looking for some help in debuggingI > the problem.  (On Linux, I'd fire up gdb, strace, etc., but I am pretty  > lost on VMS at present.) > 	 > Thanks, I You could try the VI section file for VMS TPU. This will use the VMS Text 4 Processing Utility and configure it to work like vi.  - See: http://ftp.digital.com/pub/VMS/vitpu-v4/   3 I'm not a vi expert, but it works perfectly for me.    Jeff   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 23:54:12 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)( Subject: Re: Debugging a crashing editor2 Message-ID: <06042823541254_20274C9D@antinode.org>  2 From: Sidney Cammeresi <sac@cheesecake.org.nospam>  F > I installed OpenVMS in SimH and have been playing around, but havingI > use vi on UNIX for ten years, I just cannot deal with any other editor, E > so I downloaded some VMS binaries of vim.  I got them installed and ) > working, but then they stopped working.   F    VMS version?  Vim version?  Vim binaries from where?  If you're not- using "-g", what sort of terminal (emulator)?   K > It starts to start up (and stuff like vim -h works), but then it crashes,  > saying > ! > 		Vim: Caught deadly signal BUS  > 		Vim: Finished.      Actual Vim command?  I > I can't say `I didn't change anything important' given the new, foreign J > environment that VMS is to me, so I'm looking for some help in debuggingI > the problem.  (On Linux, I'd fire up gdb, strace, etc., but I am pretty  > lost on VMS at present.)  F    "Vim -v" might say something useful, but perhaps only if the output5 is compared with the output from a working situation.   H    I appear to have "VIM - Vi IMproved \ version 6.3.46" installed on myC Alpha (VMS V7.3-2).  I made some changes to the source to stop some ? (mostly harmless) compiler messages, and to use the make use of E command-line case preservation on modern non-VAX systems, but nothing G which should have much effect on normal operation.  I don't remember if A I've put it onto a VAX, too, and I won't be able to get to my VAX D systems to try it for some days, but I'd expect it to work about theA same there (except for the command-line case preservation stuff).   E    I use it only seldom, but it seems to work for me (normal terminal 
 and "-g").   ALP $ show symbol *vim*     GVIM == "$ UTILITY:VIM.EXE -g"8   SGVIM == "spawn /nowait /input = nl: gvim -geom 80x48"   VIM == "$ UTILITY:VIM.EXE"  &    Are your Vim logical names defined?   ALP $ show logical *vim*   (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)   8   "VIM" = "/SYS$SYSDEVICE/UTILITY/source/vim/v6r3/vim63"?   "VIMRUNTIME" = "/SYS$SYSDEVICE/UTILITY/source/vim/v6r3/vim63"  [...]   E Your directory specs will almost certainly differ, but I believe that F both the logical names must be defined (with UNIX-format paths) to get it to work properly.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 08:52:47 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> % Subject: Re: decnet vs decnet over IP 1 Message-ID: <e2udb5$qdv$1@news-02.connect.com.au>   
 Hi Javier,  9 > This emulates DECnet from the application point of view   K Interesting. How transparent is it? Does it relace the _NET: driver on VMS? J Is there some sort of socket library on Windows that mirrors the pathworks one?   Regards Richard Maher   2 "Javier" <javier@invalid.invalid> wrote in message) news:e2t14n$13pa$1@stationair.kjsl.com...  > Chuck Aaron wrote: > > Questions: > > ? > > What is the advantage of running DECNET over IP vs. DECNET?  > @ > Others already started to go over the pros vs. cons of either. > H > I'll mention that there's another option, the MultiNet's DECnot (or IP: > services for DECnet or whatever it's called these days). > I > This emulates DECnet from the application point of view, but uses IP as I > the underlying protocol. On networks where IP is preferred or mandated, = > it's an excellent alternative for tunneling DECnet over IP.  >  > -jav   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:40:38 -0700  From: Z <Z@ids.net> % Subject: Re: decnet vs decnet over IP ( Message-ID: <DnA4g.848$yD4.761@fe03.lga>   Chuck Aaron wrote: > Questions:= > What is the advantage of running DECNET over IP vs. DECNET?   : Your switches and firewalls only need to understand TCPIP.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Apr 2006 14:14:36 -0700 From: melanie.hubbard@hp.comN Subject: Re: Is OpenVMS certified yet for 64-way Hard partitions (GS1280 M64).C Message-ID: <1146258876.854534.149150@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Hi!   ? This posting has nothing to do with 64-way partitions.  I don't D typically post to newsgroups.  However,  I may be able to respond toG the specific question which Richard Maher asked in his posting of April D 12th, 'What ever happened to the disaster tolerant POC whitepaper'?.@ If he is referring to the testing that took place in the OpenVMSA Solutions lab last winter with Oracle 9iRAC and Host-Based Volume . Shadowing, the POC whitepaper can be found at:  5 http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/c00602733.pdf   F It will also be available in the next OpenVMS Technical Journal, which. I believe will be made available in June 2006.   rgds,  melanie hubbard  openvms sustaining engineering   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:54:00 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Need help with stalled printer queue + Message-ID: <445272D0.2BBA485@teksavvy.com>   
 AEF wrote:F > Server queue NODEX_HP4200, stalled, on NODEX::, mounted form DEFAULTG >   /BASE_PRIORITY=4 /DEFAULT=(FEED,FORM=DEFAULT) /LIBRARY=HP4200DEVCTL . > /OWNER=[SYSTEM] /PROCESSOR=TCPWARE_VMSLPRSMB  & If this uses LPR/LPD, you may wish to:   $TELNET/PORT=515 NODEX::  H If you can't connect, then the symbiont won't ne able to connect either.  G Also, you may wish to do a NETSTAT just after printing begins to see if D the TSPIP stack thinks there is an active connection between the VMS( node and the remote printer (or server).    5 (I assume "nodex::" is actually a TCPIP host name ? )   F If it is just a host name instead of a fully qualified name, make sureG your local resolver will add the default domain name so  it can get the  DNS server to resolve the name.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Apr 2006 13:08:04 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>1 Subject: Re: Need help with stalled printer queue B Message-ID: <1146254884.141634.13880@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote:  > H > > Has the addition of the printers to the active directory removed the/ > > LPR/LPD functionality from the printserver?  > E >    I've never seen Microsoft Active Directory (AD) get tangled with J > LPR/LPD.  (That's not to state such could not happen, just that I've notG > seen that particular train-wreck arise -- and we've certainly had our ? > share of intentionally and unintentionally "creative" network ! > configurations here inside HP.)  > F >    My first suspicion would be that TCPWARE_VMSLPRSMB is getting itsH > knickers in a twist, or is going toes-up; err, an unexpected conditionF > is arising within the local symbiont's run-time environment, and theG > symbiont is accordingly demonstrating unspecified untoward behaviour. G > This could include the symbiont, or associated parts of the IP stack.  > H >    My secondary assumption would involve a potential problem somewhereJ > within the OpenVMS VAX queue manager or related components, or somewhereI > within the network stack.  Accordingly, I'd look at the process and (if J > present) at the process state, and (if present) at any logs or debuggingE > mechanisms available for this symbiont, and I'd look for applicable I > updates from Process and at the application of the mandatory and of any . > queue-related ECOs from OpenVMS Engineering.   (I'll do what I can of this.)   F Well, this has suddenly happened on two VAX systems, so I'd think thatC would mean some external (to VMS and TCPware) problem. Also, one of = them I had shut down for a week maybe and booted it up and it D immediately exhibited the same problem. It worked fine for months onE both systems until this week, though I can't remember exactly when it G last worked, it was probably early or mid April. So why would something = that's been working fine for months suddenly require a patch?   B One machine has all mandatory VMS patches and a QMAN patch but theC other doesn't, yet both exhibit the problem. I just started it on a E third VAX and it, too, exhibits the same problem. Hmmm, they all have  the same hosts. file.   C Also, I just found out that the printserver was added to active dir G domain back in December, well before this problem occurred. But I can't D think of any change that was made to either machine that could cause
 this problem.      > J >    I have had direct success with connections with LPR/LPD and DCPS (viaI > TCP/IP Services, however), and would tend to use DCPS for printing to a ( > LaserJet 4200 or LaserJet 4300 series. > H >    You could eliminate DNS and DHCP use as a test, assuming you have aJ > fixed address.  (I tend to not configure the printer to use DHCP.)  ThisE > would largely eliminate any potential involvement of AD, of course.   @ There is no DHCP invovled AFAIK and I use hosts files on the VAXG systems. What change could affect all three systems (the 3rd is running / VMS v6.1 while the first two are running v6.2).    Thanks for your help.    AEF    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:17:05 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>1 Subject: Re: Need help with stalled printer queue 2 Message-ID: <5Lu4g.6977$eX1.5453@news.cpqcorp.net>  
 AEF wrote: > Hoff Hoffman wrote:  ... E > Also, I just found out that the printserver was added to active dir I > domain back in December, well before this problem occurred. But I can't F > think of any change that was made to either machine that could cause > this problem.   E    LaserJet printers do not have to coexist or operate with AD, they  C just need an address and connectivity.  (I seem to recall you have  H indicated you have gotten ping to work, which tends to rule out most IP C connectivity issues, but it's also clearly possible to have a ping  F succeed when targeting the wrong node.  I've chased after that one...)  I >>    You could eliminate DNS and DHCP use as a test, assuming you have a K >> fixed address.  (I tend to not configure the printer to use DHCP.)  This F >> would largely eliminate any potential involvement of AD, of course. > B > There is no DHCP invovled AFAIK and I use hosts files on the VAXI > systems. What change could affect all three systems (the 3rd is running 1 > VMS v6.1 while the first two are running v6.2).   G    IIRC, the LaserJet 4200 series can be configured for DHCP.  (That's  D what I was referring to, and not to the OpenVMS VAX hosts.)  As for H other commonality, there are always the usual network (dis)connectivity  and routing issues.   F    I would look at the Process TCPware ECO kits, and would definitely B check with Process more directly if there are no obvious ECO kits  available for this.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:08:44 -0400 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com> Subject: Re: OT: FAA goes Linux 8 Message-ID: <445221EC.215.471ABC@squayle.insight.rr.com>  2 On 28 Apr 2006 at 8:53, bob@instantwhip.com wrote:= > I don't want to be on the plane or planes when it fails ...   D The traffic management applications aren't related to navigation or D aircraft separation.  If the Linux boxes kick the bucket, you won't D be able to get into any air-carrier-sized airports, but things will  be okay.  = The navigation stuff is on VMS on CHARON-VAX [Shameless Plug   Alert(tm)].   
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------8 Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA < stan-at-stanq-dot-com   http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html) "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Apr 2006 17:46:07 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: OT: FAA goes Linux 3 Message-ID: <7kII$48QTjXJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <445194B4.9A476298@vaxination.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:R >> http://www.redhat.com/rhel/informationcenter/successstories/government/faa.html > D > I think this is worthy of mention because it truly pits Linux as aL > serious competitor to VMS for truly serious mission critical applications.  J No, if you read more carefully you will see they are replacing an existing Unix installation with Linux.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:39:59 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 6 Subject: Re: OT: Intels quickens cadence for new 8086s, Message-ID: <44526F87.15A22805@teksavvy.com>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > H > thee is only so many tricks you can devise for the x86 boat anchor ...  H If the 8086 instruction set is simple enough, it allows chip designed to( streamline the chip and make it go fast.  B Had the 8086 instruction set been too complex (as was VAX's), theyF wouldn't have been able to move to Pentium III and beyond and the chipG would have died in the late 1990s, clearly replaced by that IA64 thing.   F I think IA64 must have been conceived because 8086 engineers were ableC to steal Alpha ideas and implement them on 8086 very quickly, after F which, they may have realised that 8086 wouldn't die and IA64 wouldn'tE be able to take control of the "industryu standard" market and remain  just a niche product.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:33:02 -0600 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>- Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel : Message-ID: <daydnWMjDY1s8M_ZnZ2dnUVZ_v6dnZ2d@bresnan.com>   Alan Greig wrote:  >  >  > Neil Rieck wrote:  >  >>F >> When ever bean counters are slashing, they usually assume they are D >> doing things to satisfy the investors. With such a mindset it is H >> possible that someone will preferentially choose profitable x86 (and 6 >> x86-64) rather than a much less profitable Itanium. >  > K > An ex DEC employee told me that he met Bob Palmer not long after he took  J > over DEC. Palmer asked those present "What is our main product?". Loads K > of answers from the assembled underlings but nobody got it "right" until  K > Palmer proudly announced that Digital's main product was the share price.  >  > Says it all really.  > I > However Palmer destroyed his main product as much as he did everything   > else.   : Yeup.  Bean counters seem to always make a mess of things.     --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:17:09 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> - Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel + Message-ID: <4452783B.B2A4824@teksavvy.com>   J > > However Palmer destroyed his main product as much as he did everything	 > > else.     D Back in the 1980s, the the liberal government in Quvec apppointed aG friend as the head of the olympic installations in Montreal. Problem is A that this guy was not interested in sports, he was insterested in 9 tourism, but the govt couldn't find him a job in tourism.   C What did he do ? He poored concrete slab to cover the ground of the H olympic stadium to turn the stadium into an exhibition hall. He tried toB destroy the pools to turn them into an indoor amusement park (thatH failed). He prevented the olympic tower from being completed with sportsC facilities and gymnasiums as it had been designed to do, and wanted C desperatily to have a hotel in there. (hard to do when there are no E windows or windows specifially located very high above a gym floor).  F They destroyed the velodrome and converted it into a money losing zoo.E The stadium doesn't do any sports anymore, they only do trade shows.  H The velodrome was especially bad because they limited access to cyclistsH and then told the public that since to few cyclists were using it (lying5 about the real numbers of cyclists who still used it  Q despite the OIB's attempt to limit its use) that the facility should be replaced.     F Looks to me like Palmer wasn't interested in running "DIGITAL", he wasE interested in running a clone of Compaq. So he tore off as much as he C could of "DIGITAL" to try to turn it into a Wintel organistaion. He H didn't care about destroying invaluable assets, just like the OIB didn'tI care about destroying our sports facilities that could never be rebuilt.    C And when you have someone who is set on transforming something into < something else, there is not much to stop it from happening.    A In the case of Alpha, the excuse that Compaq wasn't interested in G running chips isn't valid. Curly was scared on Intel and didn't want to D jeoperdize his wintel relationship with Intel because of a competingG chip that made IA64 look bad. That is the real reason Alpha was killed.   F If it had just been "Compaq insn't in the chip business", Compaq wouldG have given Alpha and its designed to API and let Alpha continue to live B with Samsung still producing Alphas. (Or gotten Intel to ditch its, stillborn IA64 thing and truly adopt Alpha.)  H The way it was done, it was clearly done to KILL Alpha and not give it aD chance to compete against IA64. And this was clearly timed to happenD just as Merced came out, to help IA64 survive. (and of course, sinceM Curly was already talking to Carly about the merger, this was important too).    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:34:57 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> - Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel 8 Message-ID: <3Mw4g.4548$fx.404140@news20.bellglobal.com>  6 "Alan Greig" <greigaln@netscape.net> wrote in message 8 news:Vwn4g.166696$8Q3.95702@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk... >  [...snip...] > K > An ex DEC employee told me that he met Bob Palmer not long after he took  M > over DEC. Palmer asked those present "What is our main product?". Loads of  H > answers from the assembled underlings but nobody got it "right" until K > Palmer proudly announced that Digital's main product was the share price.  >  > Says it all really.  > I > However Palmer destroyed his main product as much as he did everything   > else.  > --   > Alan Greig  G While we are picking on upper management let me pass on something I've   observed lately:  H 1) First off, I am a unionized employee and am entitled to a negotiated I pension (If I didn't get a pension I would get more money per hour). But  H here is the kicker; I will only get that pension as long as my employer J doesn't go bankrupt. I have a vested interest in making sure this company  stays healthy.  K 2) My employer will occasionally drop in a rock-star bean-counter who will  H work for a few years then leave with more than a $1M severance package. I These people a only interested in short-term stats (usually to justify a  J bonus) and don't care about the long term health of this (or any) company.  I So if they came up with a scheme like "hey, just cut off one arm and leg  E then you'll be better off because your food bill should be that much  ' smaller" should any of us be surprised?   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 23:36:57 GMT A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> - Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel = Message-ID: <tGx4g.61180$wl.31481@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   J Depends if the salary package is inherently linked to share price. If it's@ heavily based on share price you get the behaviour you'd expect.   --     Hope this helps, Colin. ) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk E It's not mine, but I like this definition: Legacy = stuff that works.  .    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 22:04:57 -0600 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>- Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel : Message-ID: <7rydnQvxhMNweM_ZnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@bresnan.com>   JF Mezei wrote: I >>>However Palmer destroyed his main product as much as he did everything  >>>else. >  >  > F > Back in the 1980s, the the liberal government in Quvec apppointed aI > friend as the head of the olympic installations in Montreal. Problem is C > that this guy was not interested in sports, he was insterested in ; > tourism, but the govt couldn't find him a job in tourism.  > E > What did he do ? He poored concrete slab to cover the ground of the J > olympic stadium to turn the stadium into an exhibition hall. He tried toD > destroy the pools to turn them into an indoor amusement park (thatJ > failed). He prevented the olympic tower from being completed with sportsE > facilities and gymnasiums as it had been designed to do, and wanted E > desperatily to have a hotel in there. (hard to do when there are no G > windows or windows specifially located very high above a gym floor).  H > They destroyed the velodrome and converted it into a money losing zoo.G > The stadium doesn't do any sports anymore, they only do trade shows.  J > The velodrome was especially bad because they limited access to cyclistsJ > and then told the public that since to few cyclists were using it (lying7 > about the real numbers of cyclists who still used it  S > despite the OIB's attempt to limit its use) that the facility should be replaced.  >  > H > Looks to me like Palmer wasn't interested in running "DIGITAL", he wasG > interested in running a clone of Compaq. So he tore off as much as he E > could of "DIGITAL" to try to turn it into a Wintel organistaion. He J > didn't care about destroying invaluable assets, just like the OIB didn'tK > care about destroying our sports facilities that could never be rebuilt.   > E > And when you have someone who is set on transforming something into > > something else, there is not much to stop it from happening. >  > C > In the case of Alpha, the excuse that Compaq wasn't interested in I > running chips isn't valid. Curly was scared on Intel and didn't want to F > jeoperdize his wintel relationship with Intel because of a competingI > chip that made IA64 look bad. That is the real reason Alpha was killed.  > H > If it had just been "Compaq insn't in the chip business", Compaq wouldI > have given Alpha and its designed to API and let Alpha continue to live D > with Samsung still producing Alphas. (Or gotten Intel to ditch its. > stillborn IA64 thing and truly adopt Alpha.) > J > The way it was done, it was clearly done to KILL Alpha and not give it aF > chance to compete against IA64. And this was clearly timed to happenF > just as Merced came out, to help IA64 survive. (and of course, sinceO > Curly was already talking to Carly about the merger, this was important too).   G Sounds like Intel learned quite a bit on how to create a monopoly from   Gates.? Guess that's why AMD filed an anti-trust lawsuit against Intel.      --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.236 ************************