1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 29 Apr 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 237       Contents:8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix8 Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix3 Re: Heads up - new BACKUP kit - VMS732_BACKUP-V0500  Re: hypothetical question N Now this is (a little) insult (Was Re: Quorum, locks and application question)$ Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel$ Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel$ Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel% Re: Today's book club recommendations   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 02:27:36 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix 9 Message-ID: <BMudncNuCOkBm87ZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@libcom.com>    Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:5 >> In article <m3r4g.6963$mM1.1588@news.cpqcorp.net>, 5 >>     Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: I >>>    Extension-based file typing is for kiddie-toy file systems -- and  A >>> yes, I do include those file systems of OpenVMS, Windows and  M >>> Linux/Unix and most every other current operating system available here.   >>J >> Why include Unix?  In Unix, no filename (or extension) has any implicitI >> meaning.  Applications may impart meaning, but the OS just don't care. F >> (Hint: ever "cat"ed a binary file to your terminal with disastrous 
 >> results  >> or opened a directory in vi?) > K >   Thank you for providing another example -- this type-based file format  J > identification convention centrally falls out of the limitations of the H > underlying file system.  And this from the file system limitations of G > Linux and Unix, of OpenVMS or of Windows.  As with your example from  D > Linux and Unix, OpenVMS also doesn't have a particular hard-coded & > meaning of a file extension, either. > J >   One of the more "fun" areas of OpenVMS is a ".C" extension -- is that K > a C source file or the third saveset in a classic VMSINSTAL installation   > kit? > G >   And like Linux and Unix, many (most?) OpenVMS applications do have  I > default extensions and related assumptions -- an extension of .O or of  J > .OBJ is indicative of a compiler object file, for instance.  But here I F > ask "why?".  "Why is .O or .OBJ an object file?"  Why do we use the C > convention of a period and a few characters to identify the file  F > contents?  Yes, we've always do "it" that way, but why not uniquely I > identify the construct as an object file, regardless of the particular  K > filename chosen?  Why not implement and use metadata beyond the filename?  >   
 As to why.   Why not?  The idea has merit.   H It's clear why such wasn't done in the past.  I remember RK05 disks and H such.  Storage was just too damn precious to be wasted.  'Wasted' is of  course subject to opinion.  F I think from a practical matter, it goes back to what you always tell A us, make a 'business case' for it, and sell it to VMS management.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 02:08:29 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> A Subject: Re: DCL versus Unix CLIs, was: Re: File output like Unix 9 Message-ID: <9tednQmT7tW9n87ZnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@libcom.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:4 > In article <m3r4g.6963$mM1.1588@news.cpqcorp.net>,1 > 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: H >>    Extension-based file typing is for kiddie-toy file systems -- and K >> yes, I do include those file systems of OpenVMS, Windows and Linux/Unix  A >> and most every other current operating system available here.   > I > Why include Unix?  In Unix, no filename (or extension) has any implicit H > meaning.  Applications may impart meaning, but the OS just don't care.L > (Hint: ever "cat"ed a binary file to your terminal with disastrous results > or opened a directory in vi?)  >  > bill >   H Well I'm used to it being broke.  However, nothing wrong with 'implicit C meaning' if it's useful.  Regardless, VMS just doesn't care either. G If you get explicit, VMS and probably every other OS out there will do  
 as it's told.    VAX BASIC V3.8-000   Ready   I 10      print "I don't care what my name is, I'm an executable, and I'll   execut"           end rename a Ready    save& %BASIC-I-FILEWRITE, A written to file:/                      SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]A.BAS;1  Ready    compile  A    29-APR-2006 01:50   Ready    exit $ di a   Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]   E A.BAS;1                         1/1       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,) E A.OBJ;1                         2/2       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,)   	 $ dlink a  $ di a   Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]   E A.BAS;1                         1/1       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,) E A.EXE;1                         6/6       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,) E A.OBJ;1                         2/2       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,)    $ de a.obj;*? %DELETE-I-FILDEL, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]A.OBJ;1 deleted (2 blocks)  $ di a   Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]   E A.BAS;1                         1/1       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,) E A.EXE;1                         6/6       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,)    $ run a A I don't care what my name is, I'm an executable, and I'll execute  $ co a.exe a.a5 %COPY-S-COPIED, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]A.EXE;1 copied to   SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]A.A;1 () 	 $ run a.a A I don't care what my name is, I'm an executable, and I'll execute  $ de a.bas;1 $ co a.exe a.bas5 %COPY-S-COPIED, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]A.EXE;1 copied to   SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]A.BAS;2)  $ run a.bas A I don't care what my name is, I'm an executable, and I'll execute  $ di a   Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]   E A.A;1                           6/6       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,) E A.BAS;2                         6/6       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,) E A.BAS;1                         1/1       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,) E A.EXE;1                         6/6       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,)    $ ren a.a a.7 %RENAME-I-RENAMED, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]A.A;1 renamed to   SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]A.;1  $ di a   Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]   E A.;1                            6/6       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,) E A.BAS;2                         6/6       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,) E A.EXE;1                         6/6       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,)    $ run a.A I don't care what my name is, I'm an executable, and I'll execute    Ready  name "a.exe" as ".a"   $ di .a    Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]   E .A;1                            6/6       [DFE]       (RWED,RWED,RE,)    $ run .aA I don't care what my name is, I'm an executable, and I'll execute   @ I'm guessing it will work for .;1 also.  Only demoed running an / executable, but probably consistant everywhere.   E The filename is just a damn handle to let you grab ahold of the file.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Apr 2006 10:43:08 -0700/ From: "Volker Halle" <volker_halle@hotmail.com> < Subject: Re: Heads up - new BACKUP kit - VMS732_BACKUP-V0500C Message-ID: <1146332588.836002.324180@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   	 Valentin,   B once you've copied the disk to the new destination disk, mount theC destination disk private and use SET VOLUME/LIMIT $7$DKA500: - this = will set the maximum expansion limit on the destination disk.    Volker.    ------------------------------    Date: 29 Apr 2006 07:25:29 +01002 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow>" Subject: Re: hypothetical question? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-yiVGgFheMvCE@dave2_os2.home.ours>   . On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 03:09:32 UTC, "Guy Peleg" , <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> wrote:   > D > "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_header@hp.com> wrote in message& > news:444d262e@usenet01.boi.hp.com...> > > If I could make your BACKUP operations complete faster....? > > 2-5 times faster....but restrict this feature for save-sets ; > > written to disks only (not to support it with save-sets 3 > > written to tapes).....would you find it useful?  > > % > > I'm looking for yes/no answer....  > > + > > Please do not ask for more details..... 5 > > Please do not speculate.....it will be clear soon  > > ? > > I'm unable to provide any further information at this point  > >  > > Thank you !  > > 
 > > Guy Peleg  > > OpenVMS Engineering  > > N > > (Please do not re-post this in any other forum, I chose c.o.v. on purpose) > >  > >  > M > unfortunately I did not win the war I was fighting.......but thanks for the J > ammunition. There will be details on this during my utilities session inI > the bootcamp, but it will be under NDA. this  will become somewhat more % > public towards the end of the year.   @ Was away but would have given a Yes reply, especially if it had $ applied to BACKUP across DecNet, i.e  4 	backup   x,y,z      onode::net_saveset.bck /sav ...   Thanks for the efforts Guy.    --   Cheers - Dave W.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 20:11:11 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> W Subject: Now this is (a little) insult (Was Re: Quorum, locks and application question) 1 Message-ID: <e2vl35$lbc$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi,   : 1) Muhammed Ali lighting the torch at the Atlanta OlympicsG 2) Any time Murray Walker has been behind a microphone in the last five  years   3) Stephen Hoffman's reply below   Regards Richard Maher   L PS. Yes we all (most) know and love DECdtm. (RTR is a piece of filth proppedI up by OM Gruppen! When will they learn?) But what was being discussed was F the ability of a Resource Manager to meet its sworn obligations to theC Transaction Manager. Or more specifically, and yet generally, "What . *exactly* does Rdb's FREEZE lock do and why?".  H I've seen many people "Ask the Wizard" DECdtm questions but not a lot ofA answers. Still, I suppose it's a different question every day :-)   H (Oh well, that's the best balance of wit and abuse I can come up with at
 short notice)   9 "Hoff Hoffman" <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> wrote in message , news:17h3g.6782$FF7.2906@news.cpqcorp.net... > Richard Maher wrote: > J > >> I think you can do this using lock value blocks.  Put a flag in thereL > >> that says "the transaction was successfully completed".  Clear the flagF > >> on acquiring the lock.  Set the flag when you exit.  If, when you? > >> acquire the lock, the flag is already clear, or if you get H > >> SS$_VALNOTVALID, then you need to back out whatever transaction was > >> in progress first.  > > I > > Yes I think you're right. The ss$_valnotvalid status should be enough  for H > > anybody! Which led me to revisit my question and ask "Well, what the hell is ! > > the FREEZE lock doing then?".  >  > H >    I have not dug back through the thread to see if this was suggestedA > before, but I'd (again) look at DECdtm here; at the distributed G > transaction manager.  I'm sure there's some reason why DECdtm and RTR I > can't be used here, but -- so long as we're back (again) looking at the G > distributed lock manager and at the event services -- I'll suggest it 
 > (again).   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 02:33:48 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel 9 Message-ID: <BMudncJuCOmMlc7ZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@libcom.com>    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:  > Alan Greig wrote:  >  >> >> >> Neil Rieck wrote: >> >>> G >>> When ever bean counters are slashing, they usually assume they are  E >>> doing things to satisfy the investors. With such a mindset it is  I >>> possible that someone will preferentially choose profitable x86 (and  7 >>> x86-64) rather than a much less profitable Itanium.  >> >>G >> An ex DEC employee told me that he met Bob Palmer not long after he  J >> took over DEC. Palmer asked those present "What is our main product?". D >> Loads of answers from the assembled underlings but nobody got it J >> "right" until Palmer proudly announced that Digital's main product was  >> the share price.  >> >> Says it all really. >>J >> However Palmer destroyed his main product as much as he did everything  >> else. > G > If you think your share price is your "main product" you are doomed.  5 > Managing for the next quarters earnings is madness.  > E > Producing a product the customers really need and doing it better,  - > faster, and cheaper is the road to success.   H Which is exactly how companies are built.  Then come the bean counters, 5 and that's how companies are destroyed.  Full circle.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 02:40:57 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel 9 Message-ID: <BMudnf1uCOkmlM7ZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@libcom.com>    Neil Rieck wrote: 8 > "Alan Greig" <greigaln@netscape.net> wrote in message : > news:Vwn4g.166696$8Q3.95702@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk... > [...snip...]L >> An ex DEC employee told me that he met Bob Palmer not long after he took N >> over DEC. Palmer asked those present "What is our main product?". Loads of I >> answers from the assembled underlings but nobody got it "right" until  L >> Palmer proudly announced that Digital's main product was the share price. >> >> Says it all really. >>J >> However Palmer destroyed his main product as much as he did everything  >> else. >> -- 
 >> Alan Greig  > I > While we are picking on upper management let me pass on something I've   > observed lately: > J > 1) First off, I am a unionized employee and am entitled to a negotiated K > pension (If I didn't get a pension I would get more money per hour). But  J > here is the kicker; I will only get that pension as long as my employer L > doesn't go bankrupt. I have a vested interest in making sure this company  > stays healthy. > M > 2) My employer will occasionally drop in a rock-star bean-counter who will  J > work for a few years then leave with more than a $1M severance package. K > These people a only interested in short-term stats (usually to justify a  L > bonus) and don't care about the long term health of this (or any) company. > K > So if they came up with a scheme like "hey, just cut off one arm and leg  G > then you'll be better off because your food bill should be that much  ) > smaller" should any of us be surprised?   H I say we demand 'proof of concept' and cut off the arms and legs of the 8 person suggesting such.  Problem will be quickly solved.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450> Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 10:41:53 -0600 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>- Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Changes coming at Intel : Message-ID: <isqdnT1oxK_JCs7ZnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@bresnan.com>   Dave Froble wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:  >  >> Alan Greig wrote: >> >>>  >>>  >>> Neil Rieck wrote:  >>>  >>>>H >>>> When ever bean counters are slashing, they usually assume they are F >>>> doing things to satisfy the investors. With such a mindset it is J >>>> possible that someone will preferentially choose profitable x86 (and 8 >>>> x86-64) rather than a much less profitable Itanium. >>>  >>>  >>> H >>> An ex DEC employee told me that he met Bob Palmer not long after he @ >>> took over DEC. Palmer asked those present "What is our main I >>> product?". Loads of answers from the assembled underlings but nobody  F >>> got it "right" until Palmer proudly announced that Digital's main   >>> product was the share price. >>>  >>> Says it all really.  >>> @ >>> However Palmer destroyed his main product as much as he did  >>> everything else. >> >>H >> If you think your share price is your "main product" you are doomed. 6 >> Managing for the next quarters earnings is madness. >>F >> Producing a product the customers really need and doing it better, . >> faster, and cheaper is the road to success. >  > J > Which is exactly how companies are built.  Then come the bean counters, 7 > and that's how companies are destroyed.  Full circle.  >   F Pretty much the case too.  Remember when live muscians used to be the G norm in Las Vegas?  Along came the bean counters and the establishment  H put in canned music, which brought down the entertainment standards for  casinos.F Then the hi-rise casinos back in the 70s used to almost give away the = rooms, until the bean counters came in and up went the price.      --   Where are we going?   And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 19:51:51 +0800 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> . Subject: Re: Today's book club recommendations1 Message-ID: <e2vjus$jq8$1@news-02.connect.com.au>   	 Hi Steve,   H My insults are never that subtle, but maybe the humour wasn't that great either.   K I sought to cast myself as King Arthur on my sacred quest to discover "them @ rules" regarding UWSSs, and stood at the base of your castle I'm bellowing: -  ? "Now, this is your last chance. I've been more than reasonable"   F To which you, VMS engineering, and the VMS Documentation (cast as "The! French Guards") wittily retort: -   B "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"  ; If you'd seen the film the similarities are truly striking!    Regards Richard Maher   I PS. If you're interested http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-08.htm   9 "Hoff Hoffman" <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> wrote in message + news:5dM3g.6841$JD.4363@news.cpqcorp.net...  > Richard Maher wrote: > I > > Oh don't we laugh heartily, and fart in their general direction, when  the L > > stupid pig customers fall for those old chestnuts. Ahhh chortle chortle. > F >    I'm not at all certain if I'm being insulted, or if I'm missing aE > good joke, or if these are general ramblings, or if these words are . > intended to seed some search engine ranking. >  >  >    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.237 ************************