1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 11 Aug 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 444       Contents: Re: Agile Manifesto (maybe OT) Re: Alpha remembrance day  Re: Alpha remembrance day  CFD - software% Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP % Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP % Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP % Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP % Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP % Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP % Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP % Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP  Re: Enabling SMTP in VAX/VMS Re: Enabling SMTP in VAX/VMS HP Test Drive sub-network dead? " LAT to SSH(or Telnet even) tunnel?& Re: LAT to SSH(or Telnet even) tunnel?& Re: LAT to SSH(or Telnet even) tunnel?& Re: LAT to SSH(or Telnet even) tunnel?& Re: LAT to SSH(or Telnet even) tunnel? TCPIP$TELNETSYM_SYSTARTUP.COM ! Re: TCPIP$TELNETSYM_SYSTARTUP.COM & Re: VMS backup: competition from Apple& Re: VMS backup: competition from Apple  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:04:31 -0400 6 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>' Subject: Re: Agile Manifesto (maybe OT) ) Message-ID: <PARCg.189$_q4.40@dukeread09>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:| > In article <8660a3a10608091351q398837ct4298c69489adb9a4@mail.gmail.com>, "William Webb" <william.w.webb@gmail.com> writes:D >> Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer through early and, >> continuous delivery of valuable software. > D > If the software is valuable, "continuous delivery" of new versions4 > is not a customer priority.  It adds to confusion.  7 As with so many other things it is not black and white.   2 You are thinking about version 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 etc..  > They are probably thinking more of version 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 etc..  5 Such early versions very likely has new features that ! the users really are waiting for.   6 And the developers really need some feedback to decide0 what direction to go with for the next versions.  1 Also depends a bit on the users and the software.   $ Some love playing with beta versions of Microsoft Windows and .NET.  3 Other want the stuff to have been out for 1-2 years 5 and have seen the first SP before they dare using it.   . There are contexts where it is good to deliver early and often.  , And there are contexts where it is not good.  A >> Welcome changing requirements, even late in development. Agile E >> processes harness change for the customer's competitive advantage.  > . > To me this seems contrary to robust testing.  ) It should not really mean less testing of  component X.  6 It just means that while doing component X then nobody' knows what component will be done next.   , In the traditional model you make a plan for7 2 years with 6 deliveries in total. A, B, C, D, E and F 5 are fixed in the contract. Changing that means change  control board etc..   , In the most extreme form of XP they take one+ delivery at a time. A, B, C, D, E and F are 2 proposed, they are estimated and the customer says, B. B is done. Same development and test time/ as in the traditional model. Then they sit down - and have A, C, D, E, F, X and Y on the table, - they are estimated and the customer chooses X * because business requirements has changed.   Not a problem for the supplier.   - Very few customers are willing to accept that 0 model. Because they have the main responsibility( for getting bang for the buck out of it.   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2006 12:41:52 -0700# From: "flatts1" <flatts1@yahoo.com> " Subject: Re: Alpha remembrance dayA Message-ID: <1155238912.485864.81890@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    Hello,  G It has been about 5 years since I have done any meanifngful work on VMS G (Vax or Alpha).  Interestingly, this discussion is centered around that G timeframe and the events preceeding it.  The last version of VMS that I  worked on was 7.1, as I recall.   E It has probably been almost equally as long since I have visited this D newsgroup.  This morning, for old time's sake, I decided to see whatE was going on in VMS land these days and this thread really picqued my 	 interest.   F When I virtually stopped working on VMS, I would say that I was at theC top of my game while supporting VMS and UNIX at about 80/20 percent G respecively.  I used to joke to folks that I could probably forget more F about VMS than I would ever learn about UNIX.  I'm rethinking that nowF that I wave been working on Solaris/Windows since (about 70/30 percent respectively).  F I thank JF Mezie for initiating this thread.  While on the one hand itC is depressing, it is also bringing back some very good memories and 3 experiences that I have had in the "good old days".   G While it might appear that there has been some rigorous disagreement on G this topic, I think folks actually agree with each other more than they C don't.  In other words, I think folks tend to agree on the numerous D tactical and strategic misteps that occured along the way with AlphaE and VMS.  The disagreement seems to lay in pointing the finger at who  is responsible.   E Regardless, I think it is just sad that DEC never could get their act F together which resulted in everyone else's OS reinventing the wheel toE become as robust as VMS was (is) on such things as clustering, system ; auditing, system accounting, etc.  Yes, you too can build a D blisteringly fast OS if you don't have to worry about all that fancy( overhead with each image activation :-).    A Throughout this discussion, I think Andrew nailed it best with...   ( ========================================
 Andrew wrote:   E The sad reality is that Alphas woes and eventual demise may have been D exacerbated or at least allowed to get worse by Palmer/Curly etc but> the seeds for Alphas decline were sown by DEC and their seniorD management in the 80's before any of your favourite culprits were in
 the frame.( ========================================     And also...     ( ========================================
 Andrew wrote:   C 4. DEC started out as an alternative to IBM but ended up becoming a A mini IBM without the deep pockets or market share. DEC history is D littered with strategies that apparently had nothing to do with whatD customers were asking for and everything to do with what DEC thought customers wanted. ( ========================================  D This last excerpt is so true.  Even after Compaq bought DEC, it tookA them forever to rename all of the DECthis and DECthat proprietary F verbiage.  The DECnet Phase V example was excellent and I'll mention aE few more examples on where DEC missed the boat and/or just didn't get  it.     ? - DCL:  One shell and only one shell - and it could only handle > integers.  While a great "command" language with great lexicalG functions, it had nothing on the native UNIX shells that supported real  number processing, arrays, etc.   ? - DSSI:  Aptly a four letter word.  The first time I saw a SCSI D connection on a DEC computer was on one of the first Alphas.  It wasF the very early '90s.  Around 1992 or whenever Alpha "AXP 1.5" came outC (we were a Beta guinea pig).  The rest of the world, of course, had C embraced SCSI much earlier.  And let's face it, DEC would have much D preferred to still keep charging $400 for DSSI cables if they could.D It is this type of gouging that really left a sour taste in not only8 managment's mouth but in system administrators' as well.  F - UCX:  In any of the other Operating systems that I can think of, youD get a network stack out of the box at no additional charge.  SomeoneG correct me if I'm wrong but didn't DEC even charge for DECnet (and even B the "edt" editor)?  I only installed the net-app-supp licences.  IE never had to buy them.  Anyway, when the rest of the world was moving G forward with free TCP/IP, DEC decided to charge it's customers for UCX. D  I don't know about your experiences with UCX, but I think it says aD lot when a third party vendor can create a better and cheaper TCP/IPE interface that they don't even control the drivers to.  I'm referring ? to "Multinet" which was much easier to administer than UCX was. E Unfortunately, it did still rely on the native UCX drivers which left G Multinet and DEC pointing fingers at each other when something broke on 	 Multinet.   - - PATHWORKS anyone:  I still have nightmares.   E - Polycenter:  This was actually a very useful suite of tools (system D watchdog, performance analayizer, remote system managment, etc).  ItE worked like a champ.  The support was top notch and they could really = speak the same language as you.  Then DEC sold it to Computer G Associates who couldn't even spell VMS who then assimilated it to their 7 Unicenter.  Now that was a bonehead move on DEC's part.   C - ALL-IN-ONE:  I don't know how this ever made DEC money.  The only F time I ever saw it in use was when I worked at DEC and also at College where I presume it was donated.   C - Perl, Apache, and other GNU stuff:  They all had caveates when it D came to VMS ports AND EVEN WHEN IT CAME TO THE DEC UNIX PORTS.  WhenF DEC did finally decide to port some of these themselves, it was alwaysG way behind their UNIX counterparts that could simply install the latest  versions at will.     ( ========================================' Bill Todd wrote (while quoting Andrew):   C > 2. Having belatedly realised that VAX wasn't going to survive the E > onslaught of the RISC processors DEC initiated the short lived MIPS G > platform running Ultrix a plaform seriously hampered by the fact that G > DEC had not only missed catching the RISC wave but had also failed to H > catch the UNIX wave as well. DEC sales people prefered selling VMS/VAXF > and senior management openly denigrated UNIX while funding a product) > division to develop it. Sounds mad now.     D > This lost DEC market share to Sun, HP, IBM and SGI who had no such > qualms about selling UNIX.      > But (yet again) this couldn't possibly have contributed to the	 *decline* A of a product which had not even been introduced yet.  In fact, if G anything it gave Alpha a lower starting point from which regaining lost   C market share might have been easier than beginning with more of it. ( ========================================  C I agree with Andrew.  Do you recall the book, "UNIX For DCL Users". ? This was the one from "Digital Press". Very watered down and it ' confused folks more than informed them.   D Bill, much of your perspective does have merit but it is lost withinA your bitterness in how things turned out.  C'mon, do you think we C really care if someone makes a post with typos?  It's sad but I can G relate.  I used to be in your shoes and I went kicking and screaming to E UNIX/Solaris.  But I'm I over it now and I'm better for it.  You need . to move on, dude.  It's best for everyone. :-)  G Also Bill, they're not called "Legacy Systems" for nothing.  You're not B buying a computer, you're buying into a company for the long haul.D Andrew was right to point out all of the earlier blunders by DEC didD little to instill confidence in Alpha or anything else down the pike for that matter.    ( ========================================
 Andrew wrote:   F The initial Alpha sucess, replacing the VAX cluster ended in a Solaris	 migration D because the components the bank wanted simply did not exist on Alpha for either Tru64 or OpenVMS.( ========================================  D This happened EVERYWHERE and, as mentioned earlier, was probably theG single most important factor why VMS died.  Although the decision by SW F vendors not to port to VMS had many other underpinnings!  What good isE all that great reliability and performance of Alpha/VMS clusters when ? the newest version of your critical app isn't available for it.   B I once worked for a large bank in the "Midrange Group".  They tookB their system security very seriously.  We had comprehensive auditsD twice a year.  On the VMS side we maintened very detailed reports ofC VMS' auditing trails and a litany of sysgen parameters were set and D verified.  When it came time to audit the IBM AIX systems, they justB wanted to make sure there were no generic accounts and that strongD passwords were used.  There were simply no functional equivilents inD security (at the time) for the AIX boxes.  I always wondered how AIXE even got its foot in the door there but management didn't really seem D to care because the app they needed to run wasn't avaialable on VMS.  B I worked at DEC for 4.63 years.  That is what it said on my layoffA package - which meant that I was conveniently not vested (under 5 C years).  While I was there, I saw the introduction of the VAX 9000. F This was the one that was supposed to make or break the company.  ThenB there was the Alpha chip.  Again, this too was supposed to make or? break the company.  Then the sell out to Compaq and the rest is G history.  Just another example of a great product with crappy marketing  and management.    Best,  Mike F.    P.S.C Not sure if this is old hat to everyone but a DEC sales person once 4 told me that OSF stood for "O"ppose "S"un "F"orever.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2006 15:13:54 -0700# From: "flatts1" <flatts1@yahoo.com> " Subject: Re: Alpha remembrance dayB Message-ID: <1155248034.756114.86610@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>  * ========================================== Bill Todd wrote:  
 And I've been F observing for many years here that while VMS had unique strengths backG around that time, since then many other systems (specifically including   D several Unix variants) have caught up sufficiently that any residualF advantage pales beside its being so out-of-step with what contemporary users want/are used to.   D Which is of course a shame, since it by no means had to be so out ofB step, had its owners been at all interested in keeping it current.* ==========================================   On this we agree.    Peace, Mike F.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:46:19 -0500 + From: brandon@dalsemi.com (BRANDON, JOHN M)  Subject: CFD - software 1 Message-ID: <06081021461909@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   " CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics)  ) We are looking to analyze our datacenter.   B Anyone have or know of CDF software that will allow us to do that?       John "REBOOT" Brandon  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2006 13:55:34 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org. Subject: Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP3 Message-ID: <2z3xASIqK9Kt@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <4k0vudF9v06bU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:3 > In article <1QGCg.1833$lL6.724@news.cpqcorp.net>, 1 > 	Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> writes: I >>    And as for mapping OpenVMS names into Unix names (or the other way  J >> 'round), there are a gazillion obvious filename translations, and some K >> really ugly ones.  What's ., after all?  The corner cases are enough to  ' >> drive any sane engineer up the wall.  > J > I wouldn't suggest mapping VMS names to Unix names.  Why would you?  AllI > your VMS names are legitimate Unix names any way (even with the ";13"). H > If the VMS directory doesn't contain a entry called "." you just don't6 > include one.  "ls" doesn't even though there is one.  : Because if you're copying a directory full of default-case9 VMS filenames (uppercase) onto a Unix directory, a useful 9 expectation is that you will end up with a Unix directory 0 full of default-case Unix filenames (lowercase).  @ And because this is the inverse of the mapping that is performedG if you take a directory full of default-case Unix filenames (lowercase) < and put them into a directory full of only-possible-case VMS filenames (uppercase).  ! Invertible mappings are goodness.   5 So the uppercase to lowercase translation is a given.   B But this means that you now need an escape convention for encoding> upper and mixed case Unix filenames.  And this then means that> filenames that happen to match that escape convention can't beA mapped directly into Unix filenames.  They need to be de-escaped.   > You are in a maze of twisty passages, all different.  The good: choices are not obvious.   And the obvious choices are not good.   F > Again, I don't think that is the problem.  There is nothing in a VMSJ > filename that is not valid in a Unix filename so no re-mapping of actual > names would be needed.  & Again, you haven't thought it through.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2006 16:03:57 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> . Subject: Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP. Message-ID: <mdd8xlwtl1u.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  , sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes:  F >    One quirk which you might wish to avoid (or make optional) is theH > TCPware behavior where it switches modes when it sees a directory nameG > (in a CWD command) which contains a "/" (-> UNIX) or "[x]" (-> VMS).  4 > This tended to confuse Wget until version 1.10.2a.  N This reminds me of something that came up a long time ago at XKL, when we wereO building Tops-20 systems.  (Bear with me, even if this is not a 36-bit friendly  group.)   O There was a commonly used commercial FTP client (FTP Software?  I forget.) that M had problems talking to the Tops-20 FTP server, being unable to get directory O listings to set up the GUI list.  We finally tracked it down to a matter of the K format in which the client expected to see directory names presented:  They 0 expected the complete string to be of the format  0 	DEVICE:FILENAME.EXTENSION.GEN[DIR.EC.TORY.NAME]  $ Tops-20 has always[1] had the format  0 	DEVICE:<DIR.EC.TORY.NAME>FILENAME.EXTENSION.GEN  M so I contacted the technical support people at the company that supplied this O wonderful FTP client.  After explaining the issue to the gentleman on the other N end of the phone line, his response was that they were doing it correctly, andO we had to change what we were doing.  Never mind that XKL had bought the 36-bit M intellectual property from Digital (setting up Mentec's later purchase of the M 16-bit IP), and had a personal history among some employees going back to the I PDP-6, *WE* *WERE* *WRONG* about the format of Tops-20 directory/filename  strings.  N When I pointed out the wrong-headed arrogance of their assertion, they reactedM as might be expected:  They pulled Tops-20 out of the list of supported OSes, N such that connecting to a Tops-20 system with the next version of their client, closed the connection with an error message.   --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:45:58 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda). Subject: Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP2 Message-ID: <06081016455853_2027FAC5@antinode.org>   From: briggs@encompasserve.org  < > Because if you're copying a directory full of default-case; > VMS filenames (uppercase) onto a Unix directory, a useful ; > expectation is that you will end up with a Unix directory 2 > full of default-case Unix filenames (lowercase). > B > And because this is the inverse of the mapping that is performedI > if you take a directory full of default-case Unix filenames (lowercase) > > and put them into a directory full of only-possible-case VMS > filenames (uppercase).  ,    This is not true for an ODS5 file system.  # > Invertible mappings are goodness.  > 7 > So the uppercase to lowercase translation is a given.   D    It may be for an ODS2 file syatem.  I see no particular reason to8 mess with the case of file names on an ODS5 file system.  D > But this means that you now need an escape convention for encoding@ > upper and mixed case Unix filenames.  And this then means that@ > filenames that happen to match that escape convention can't beC > mapped directly into Unix filenames.  They need to be de-escaped.   C    Why?  We were discussing a VMS FTP server.  Why should a VMS FTP G server try to overcome any ODS2 file system limitations (other than the 0 conversion of all-upper-case to all-lower-case)?  =    And what does any of this have to do with a UNIX-ls-format E presentation of the LIST results as opposed to a VMS-DIRECTORY-format  presentation thereof?   H    The original complaint was that MSIE can't cope with the existing VMSF TCPIP FTP server.  The case of file names is a secondary consideration? compared with complete disfunctionality.  Or so it seems to me.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:51:12 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> . Subject: Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP, Message-ID: <44DBF080.6027F611@teksavvy.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: I >    Yes, I'd like to see a way for Microsoft and TCP/IP Services to play H > together better here, but then I also gave up on Internet Explorer and0 > have been using Mozilla Firefox for eons now.     G You are part of HP. HP is Microsoft's first or second biggest customer. G Shirley HP would have some weight on Microsoft to get their software to C abide by standards used by HP products when those standards are the  "official" ones ?   E When VMS is absorbed by a PC firm, this is the one advantage that VMS < can leverage. Perhaps it is time to leverage this advantage.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:24:33 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> . Subject: Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP, Message-ID: <44DBF84F.7845A124@teksavvy.com>   "Steven M. Schweda" wrote:E >    Why?  We were discussing a VMS FTP server.  Why should a VMS FTP I > server try to overcome any ODS2 file system limitations (other than the 2 > conversion of all-upper-case to all-lower-case)?  G While you may be discussing of the output of the LIST or NLIST command, + the above statetement is strictly not true.   D When receiving a file, any FTP server must be able to make that file$ compatible with its own file system.  B So, if on my mac, I want to send "recipe.chocolate.cake" to my VMSF system, I want the VMS FTP server to be able to take that MAC filename* and convert it into a valid VMS file name.  E While I understand that ODS5 has many fewer limitations, it still has  some.     E (And the mac file system has limitations too, and so does UNIX (can't  have a slash in filename).    E (But all this is beyond the current problem of Microsoft asking for a K human readable list of files when it really wants a machine readable list).    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:53:40 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda). Subject: Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP2 Message-ID: <06081022534073_2027FAC5@antinode.org>  - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   G > >    Why?  We were discussing a VMS FTP server.  Why should a VMS FTP K > > server try to overcome any ODS2 file system limitations (other than the 4 > > conversion of all-upper-case to all-lower-case)? > I > While you may be discussing of the output of the LIST or NLIST command, - > the above statetement is strictly not true.       That's "NLST".   F > When receiving a file, any FTP server must be able to make that file& > compatible with its own file system.  E    Yeah, yeah.  But there'e no need to make the transformation easily  reversible.   D > So, if on my mac, I want to send "recipe.chocolate.cake" to my VMSH > system, I want the VMS FTP server to be able to take that MAC filename, > and convert it into a valid VMS file name.  D    It is valid (more or less), on an ODS5 file system.  (On ODS2, it needs work.)  G > While I understand that ODS5 has many fewer limitations, it still has  > some.   8    Multiple dots is not one of them (for many purposes).  G > (And the mac file system has limitations too, and so does UNIX (can't  > have a slash in filename). > G > (But all this is beyond the current problem of Microsoft asking for a M > human readable list of files when it really wants a machine readable list).   F    I don't think that Microsoft is asking for a human-readable list ofG files.  It merely expects all FTP servers to provide a list ("LIST") in B one of the limited number of formats which it can parse, and a VMSC DIRECTORY listing is not one of them.  The VMS DIRECTORY listing is ' quite human-readable.  (Ask any human.)   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 04:25:11 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>. Subject: Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP, Message-ID: <HETCg.69077$gU4.62731@trnddc07>   Steven M. Schweda wrote:/ > From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  > F >>>   Why?  We were discussing a VMS FTP server.  Why should a VMS FTPJ >>>server try to overcome any ODS2 file system limitations (other than the3 >>>conversion of all-upper-case to all-lower-case)?  >>I >>While you may be discussing of the output of the LIST or NLIST command, - >>the above statetement is strictly not true.  >  >  >    That's "NLST".  >  > F >>When receiving a file, any FTP server must be able to make that file& >>compatible with its own file system. >  > G >    Yeah, yeah.  But there'e no need to make the transformation easily 
 > reversible.  >  > D >>So, if on my mac, I want to send "recipe.chocolate.cake" to my VMSH >>system, I want the VMS FTP server to be able to take that MAC filename, >>and convert it into a valid VMS file name. >  > F >    It is valid (more or less), on an ODS5 file system.  (On ODS2, it > needs work.) >  > G >>While I understand that ODS5 has many fewer limitations, it still has  >>some.  >  > : >    Multiple dots is not one of them (for many purposes). >  > G >>(And the mac file system has limitations too, and so does UNIX (can't  >>have a slash in filename). >>G >>(But all this is beyond the current problem of Microsoft asking for a M >>human readable list of files when it really wants a machine readable list).  >  > H >    I don't think that Microsoft is asking for a human-readable list of > files.  D It *is* asking for a human-readable list of files.  That's what LISTD does: produce a human-readable list of files.  (MS IE may not *want*F an HRLoF, but that's all that is available, so that's what it asks for and that's what it gets.)     B    It merely expects all FTP servers to provide a list ("LIST") inD > one of the limited number of formats which it can parse, and a VMSE > DIRECTORY listing is not one of them.  The VMS DIRECTORY listing is ) > quite human-readable.  (Ask any human.)  >   E More so than the Unix ls listing...  What's with listing the filename F last?  The weird stuff with spacing when the size gets big?  (ProbablyD a day-one bug that has been faithfully preserved for over 30 years.)" The weird way dates are displayed?    J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 5 >    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 6 >    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818 >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:46:27 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda). Subject: Re: Clients using a GUI to access FTP2 Message-ID: <06081023462695_2027FAC5@antinode.org>    From: John Santos <john@egh.com>  J > >    I don't think that Microsoft is asking for a human-readable list of
 > > files. > F > It *is* asking for a human-readable list of files.  That's what LISTF > does: produce a human-readable list of files.  (MS IE may not *want*H > an HRLoF, but that's all that is available, so that's what it asks for > and that's what it gets.)   H    I distinguish between Microsoft and MSIE.  MSIE is asking for what itG expects to be able to get.  (Microsoft is just asking you to buy and/or  use its products.)  ' > > [...]  The VMS DIRECTORY listing is + > > quite human-readable.  (Ask any human.)  > G > More so than the Unix ls listing...  What's with listing the filename H > last?  The weird stuff with spacing when the size gets big?  (ProbablyF > a day-one bug that has been faithfully preserved for over 30 years.)$ > The weird way dates are displayed?  A    I don't need any convincing on these points.  But none of it's E particularly relevant to the original question.  The UNIX "ls" format & doesn't need to be good to be popular.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2006 16:13:03 -0700 From: contracer11@gmail.com % Subject: Re: Enabling SMTP in VAX/VMS A Message-ID: <1155251583.634092.26840@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>    Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: contracer11@gmail.com  > K > > >    As usual, it would help to know the VMS and/or UCX version.  Newer F > > > versions can get along without all the quoting required by older > > > versions.  >  >    Still true. > @ > > %UCX-E-SMTP_NOSUCHNODE,  Remote host unknown, runaway.com.br0 > > -SYSTEM-F-NOSUCHNODE, remote node is unknown > J >    So it might make sense to get the basic TCP/IP infrastructure working@ > (like the DNS resolver) working before starting to try e-mail. >   >       @ SYS$MANAGER:UCX$CONFIG > J > Look for "Core environment", then "BIND Resolver" (and everything else).G > This stuff can't work if you don't have a route to the outside world, 3 > and if you can't resolve a name to an IP address.  >  >    I assume: > 6 >       NSLOOKUP :=3D=3D $ SYS$SYSTEM:UCX$NSLOOKUP.EXE > then:  >       NSLOOKUP runaway.com.br  >  > Around here: >  > ALP $ show symbol nslookup6 >   NSL*OOKUP =3D=3D "$ SYS$SYSTEM:TCPIP$NSLOOKUP.EXE" >  > ALP $ nslookup runaway.com.br  > Server:  alp-l.antinode.org  > Address:  10.0.0.9 >  > Non-authoritative answer:  > Name:    runaway.com.br  > Address:  65.98.40.114 > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 5 >    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 6 >    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818 >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547     A In reality I don=B4t need access Internet, only send e-mails from  VAX to Outlook Express.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:28:17 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)% Subject: Re: Enabling SMTP in VAX/VMS 2 Message-ID: <06081018281779_2027FAC5@antinode.org>   From: contracer11@gmail.com   G > > > >    As usual, it would help to know the VMS and/or UCX version.  
 > > > > [...]  > >    Still true.  #    Still true.  "UCX SHOW VERSION"?   C > In reality I don=B4t need access Internet, only send e-mails from  > VAX to Outlook Express.   F    In reality, you ask for what you want, not what you think will makeG possible what you want.  Remember, if you knew what you were doing, you  wouldn't seeking help here.   I    I believe that one doesn't send e-mail messages to Outlook [Express].  H Outlook [Express] fetches e-mail messages from a POP or IMAP server.  IfH your UCX version has any of these, you might try the "Server components"" menu.  Mine has both POP and IMAP.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:58:41 -0500 (CDT) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)( Subject: HP Test Drive sub-network dead?2 Message-ID: <06081019584181_2027FAC5@antinode.org>  D    The HP Test Drive sub-network seems to be dead.  Anyone here know' anything?  For example, I can't get to:   +    td182.testdrive.hp.com    15.170.178.182 +    td183.testdrive.hp.com    15.170.178.183 +    td191.testdrive.hp.com    15.170.178.191 +    www.testdrive.hp.com      15.170.178.254   D    How am I supposed to build the IA64 binaries for GnuPG 1.4.5 this way?  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2006 13:07:54 -0700. From: "Julian Wolfe" <fireflyst@earthlink.net>+ Subject: LAT to SSH(or Telnet even) tunnel? B Message-ID: <1155240474.002142.254060@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>  G Does anyone know if there is an easy way to forward a LAT connection to C either SSH or Telnet on a VMS 8.2 machine?  I have a PDP-11 running G RSTS/E that has no form of TCP/IP available, only LAT and DECnet, and I D want to make it available via SSH connection through the VMS system.? Attaching via RTERM to RSTS/E from the VMS machine results in a < crashdump on the VMS machine. Any help would be appreciated.   Thanks!    Julian   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:17:23 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>/ Subject: Re: LAT to SSH(or Telnet even) tunnel? 2 Message-ID: <DnNCg.1883$947.1646@news.cpqcorp.net>   Julian Wolfe wrote: I > Does anyone know if there is an easy way to forward a LAT connection to E > either SSH or Telnet on a VMS 8.2 machine?  I have a PDP-11 running I > RSTS/E that has no form of TCP/IP available, only LAT and DECnet, and I F > want to make it available via SSH connection through the VMS system.A > Attaching via RTERM to RSTS/E from the VMS machine results in a > > crashdump on the VMS machine. Any help would be appreciated.  F    LAT doesn't like to be tunneled.  Bridged, yes.  But not tunneled. E LAT itself is directly and firmly tied to how Ethernet itself works,  G hence there are no routers or other such devices for other media.  And  0 I've never even heard of a LAT protocol gateway.  I    The usual solution is to either use another protocol in place of LAT,  H or run LAT to the perimeter, and convert it to some other protocol via, > say, a back-to-back (port to port) terminal server connection.  I    This was a regular question in the old Ask The Wizard area, too, with  ; topics (546), (2631), and (9666) being immediately obvious.   I    RTERM?  Ugh.  Not even CTERM?  I'd not expect to see OpenVMS bugcheck  G with the establishment of a session.  Is this (I assume) OpenVMS Alpha  F V8.2 system current on its ECOs and (if so) can you forward along the G CLUE CRASH from when OpenVMS tips over?  (Though if you have a support  $ contract, I'd go that way, however.)   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Aug 2006 23:45:23 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com / Subject: Re: LAT to SSH(or Telnet even) tunnel? , Message-ID: <ebggej015im@enews1.newsguy.com>  - Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com> wrote: K >    RTERM?  Ugh.  Not even CTERM?  I'd not expect to see OpenVMS bugcheck  I > with the establishment of a session.  Is this (I assume) OpenVMS Alpha  H > V8.2 system current on its ECOs and (if so) can you forward along the I > CLUE CRASH from when OpenVMS tips over?  (Though if you have a support  & > contract, I'd go that way, however.)  K DECnet/E is a rather crufty implementation of DECnet III, IIRC.  It doesn't K play nicely with much of anything, and it is guarenteed to have problems if 6 there is the least bit of a problem with your network.  L I've had RSTS/E 10.1 with DECnet/E 4.1 successfully talking to OpenVMS/AlphaG V7.3-2 running both DECnet Phase IV and Phase V (obviously at different G times :^)  While I had numerous problems getting this working they were I mainly tape (installing) and network (bad switch) related, and I've never F crashed VMS.  During the cold spell last winter the PDP-11 was even on HECnet for a while.   J One thing I have been unable to do is get DECnet/E running on an emulator.   		Zane   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:34:04 GMT ; From: "Jeffrey H. Coffield" <jeffrey@digitalsynergyinc.com> / Subject: Re: LAT to SSH(or Telnet even) tunnel? < Message-ID: <w0SCg.5759$9T3.2259@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>   Julian Wolfe wrote: I > Does anyone know if there is an easy way to forward a LAT connection to E > either SSH or Telnet on a VMS 8.2 machine?  I have a PDP-11 running I > RSTS/E that has no form of TCP/IP available, only LAT and DECnet, and I F > want to make it available via SSH connection through the VMS system.A > Attaching via RTERM to RSTS/E from the VMS machine results in a > > crashdump on the VMS machine. Any help would be appreciated. > 	 > Thanks!  >  > Julian > @ The Lantronix terminal servers have the ability to accept a LAT @ connection and then make a Telnet connection to another machine.   Jeff C.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 03:56:27 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>/ Subject: Re: LAT to SSH(or Telnet even) tunnel? , Message-ID: <LdTCg.68497$gU4.16853@trnddc07>   Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > Julian Wolfe wrote:  > J >> Does anyone know if there is an easy way to forward a LAT connection toF >> either SSH or Telnet on a VMS 8.2 machine?  I have a PDP-11 runningJ >> RSTS/E that has no form of TCP/IP available, only LAT and DECnet, and IG >> want to make it available via SSH connection through the VMS system. B >> Attaching via RTERM to RSTS/E from the VMS machine results in a? >> crashdump on the VMS machine. Any help would be appreciated.  >>  F VMS V8.2?  There used to be a crash in V7.0?, but I think it was fixed, years ago.  DECnet-IV or DECnet-Plus on VMS?  E I haven't used RTERM since late 1999 (long before V8.2 was released). C Maybe they fixed something and then lost the fix in later versions? C I don't remember what caused the crash, just that it was eventually  fixed (about 10 years ago.)       
 >> Thanks! >>	 >> Julian  >>B > The Lantronix terminal servers have the ability to accept a LAT B > connection and then make a Telnet connection to another machine. > 	 > Jeff C.   G Another approach is to create a captive account with minimal privileges 4 (NETMBX?) that has a login.com consisting solely of:      $ set host/lat RSTS)    $ ! or set host/application=rterm RSTS     $ logout   H Then you can SSH, telnet, etc. to the VMS system, log into this account,E and it will automatically connect you to the RSTS/E system.  When you A log out of the RSTS/E system, or if the connection breaks for any 8 reason, you get automatically logged off the VMS system.  H Note there is no encryption between the VMS system and the RSTS/E systemH (even if you are using SSH to the VMS system.)  If you are worried aboutB LAN snoopers, the LAN between the VMS system and the RSTS/E systemA should consist only of the shortest possible cross-over cable (no G switches, hubs, DELNIs, thin-wire repeaters, thick-wire backbone, etc.)   ? I have found VMS->RSTS DECnet "set host" seems to function best A (especially for TECO) in ODT mode.  LAT seems to work fine as is.      --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2006 12:21:55 -0700# From: "Bobby" <colemanr7@yahoo.com> & Subject: TCPIP$TELNETSYM_SYSTARTUP.COMB Message-ID: <1155237715.822471.293450@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>  
 Hello all,  A I am currently editing the details associated with starting up IP C printers and noticed in the TCPIP manual a small bit of verbage re: F TCPIP$TELNETSYM_SYSTARTUP.COM and TCPIP$TELNETSYM_SYSHUTDOWN.COM.  TheG TCPIP manual states that "HP recommends that you place the DCL commands C to start your TELNETSYM queues and define TELNETSYM logicals in the 1 TCPIP$TELNETSYM_SYSTARTUP.COM command procedure".   F It isn't clear to me how/when these files are used.  They appear to beD optional since all QUEUE definitions, TELNETSYM logicals and relatedC startup procedures can be defined elsewhere but I was wondering how F these files are actually called (or if they are at all) IF they exist.G That is, will they be called automatically when TCPIP services start up @ or are they intended to be explicitly run by the user (or system login)?    Thanks for any insight.  Bobby    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Aug 2006 14:07:06 -0700# From: "Bobby" <colemanr7@yahoo.com> * Subject: Re: TCPIP$TELNETSYM_SYSTARTUP.COMB Message-ID: <1155244026.135349.288040@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>  
 Thank you. Bobby    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Aug 2006 19:34:57 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com / Subject: Re: VMS backup: competition from Apple + Message-ID: <ebg1p10k2u@enews1.newsguy.com>   < Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:I >    Parts of the OS were running on x86, but not all of it, most notably C >    the GUI.  Parts of a Mac OS without a the GUI is not a Mac OS.   J The Classic Mac GUI was ported right after Apple bought NeXT and it ran onM x86.  IIRC, it wasn't till the release after that they included PPC support.  F While to the best of my knowledge no one has admitted it, it is fairlyL obvious that they kept on doing x86 builds after they stopped providing them@ to Developers.  Remember this is an OS that has a huge amount ofL cross-architecture experience.  It has run on 68k, x86, Sparc, PA-RISC, PPC,H and now EM64T.  While this was probably also a significant aid in their K getting an x86 version up and running so quickly, it also likely kept their  minds on cross-platform.   		Zane   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:42:08 GMT , From: Hoff Hoffman <hoff-remove-this@hp.com>/ Subject: Re: VMS backup: competition from Apple 2 Message-ID: <QKNCg.1884$957.1534@news.cpqcorp.net>  I One of the slickest versions of an on-line archival and retrieval system  G is that found in a source code control product I am familiar with, and  B probably in a few others places.  Basically, you set the way-back H machine for your specific view/time/release/environment, and the source G code control system then presents your request to you via what appears  F to be the existing file system.  What you see is what the environment F look(s/ed) like, at the specified setting, with all the files and the & directories exactly as they exist(ed).   That is where I was going with:   C http://h20325.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/archive/2006/01/22/641.html   G This is also where you basically tend to end up with either a database  8 or a log file system as the underlying file system, too.  C http://h20325.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/archive/2006/02/03/739.html   H The closest existing analog available on OpenVMS (ignoring Spiralog) is E the RMS Journaling Product, a package which allows you to track file   changes.  F When you don't have installed-base compatibility as an issue, you can C (conceptually) move forward rather quickly.  In practice, new file  A systems are big projects, and tend to receive comparatively slow  / adoptions.  For what should be obvious reasons.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.444 ************************