1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 01 Dec 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 660       Contents:D Re: (slightly OT) the commercial invoice and international hobbyists IEEE Decimal Float on Itanium  Mentec US is gone! Re: Mentec US is gone! Re: Mentec US is gone! Re: OpenVMS Support Issues Re: recursive copy in VMS  Re: recursive copy in VMS  Re: recursive copy in VMS 4 Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC! Re: VAX 11/730 SABACKUP questions ! Re: VAX 11/730 SABACKUP questions ! Re: VAX 11/730 SABACKUP questions ! Re: VAX 11/730 SABACKUP questions   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 01:21:40 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> M Subject: Re: (slightly OT) the commercial invoice and international hobbyists J Message-ID: <paul.sture.nospam-83E784.01214001122006@mac.sture.homeip.net>  8 In article <17a7f$4568e6fd$cef8887a$25005@TEKSAVVY.COM>,/  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:   L > This isn't  a suggestion for cheating, just a suggestion to the vendor of K > how to break the invoice up so that customs agents levy the right tax on  $ > the right portions of the invoice.  B It's worth mentioning that if you are purchasing a system without F software then a statement on the invoice like "Software not included"  can be useful.   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:34:26 -0800 * From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos-remove.com>& Subject: IEEE Decimal Float on Itanium) Message-ID: <op.tjugno0btte90l@hyrrokkin>   + Is this going to be implemented on Itanium?   2 Looks like IBM has the lead on everyone (as usual)& z/Architecture DECIMAL FLOATING-POINT	6 http://publibfi.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/a2322320.pdf  $ http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/decimal/   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2006 10:52:02 -0800, From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <quayle@pobox.com> Subject: Mentec US is gone! A Message-ID: <1164912722.187382.26570@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E www.mentec-inc.com, the link to the US Mentec site, is gone.  They've F apparently closed their US office.  www.mentec.com is their world-wide0 site, but there's no mention of PDP-11 anywhere.  4 Maybe this is a sign that PDP-11 is *really* gone...   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2006 11:21:11 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>  Subject: Re: Mentec US is gone! B Message-ID: <1164914470.989851.318890@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>   Stanley F. Quayle wrote:G > www.mentec-inc.com, the link to the US Mentec site, is gone.  They've H > apparently closed their US office.  www.mentec.com is their world-wide2 > site, but there's no mention of PDP-11 anywhere. >   > www.mentec-inc.com gives me an "Under Construction" page whileF www.mentec.com gives me a server error.  As far as I remember the main% site never did mention the PDP stuff.   6 > Maybe this is a sign that PDP-11 is *really* gone...  C Maybe this means Mentec might be open to discussions about a PDP-11  Hobbyist program again.    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Nov 2006 19:25:28 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Mentec US is gone! 0 Message-ID: <4t8ph7F12qvdnU1@mid.individual.net>  B In article <1164914470.989851.318890@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,> 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: >  > Stanley F. Quayle wrote:H >> www.mentec-inc.com, the link to the US Mentec site, is gone.  They'veI >> apparently closed their US office.  www.mentec.com is their world-wide 3 >> site, but there's no mention of PDP-11 anywhere.  >> > @ > www.mentec-inc.com gives me an "Under Construction" page whileH > www.mentec.com gives me a server error.  As far as I remember the main' > site never did mention the PDP stuff.  > 7 >> Maybe this is a sign that PDP-11 is *really* gone...  > E > Maybe this means Mentec might be open to discussions about a PDP-11  > Hobbyist program again.   * Wait.....   I'll look out the window......    Nope, no pigs flying by yet.....     bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2006 16:58:39 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com># Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Issues B Message-ID: <1164934719.137209.326980@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com>  
 AEF wrote: > Beach Runner wrote:  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:I > > > In article <1164520070.551042.321500@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, - > > > 	"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  > [...]  > > > > N > > > > Cancelling your support contract (or not renewing it, or whatever) mayL > > > > also help. And who knows? It may not. They might not care even about> > > > > that! But when you've got nothing to lose...go for it! > > > K > > > The only option that will have any effect.  It will give them another M > > > yawn, but it wil give you the money to spend elsewhere on real support.  > > > 
 > > > bill > > >  > > > --H > > A company I know complained about their support.  HP said, so get it > > elsewhere.K > > They had large purchases for many products on order. They put a hold on  > > all of them.0 > > Lots of people with suits from HP showed up. > > 9 > > THAT made a real change. Not theory. Not maybe. FACT.  > I > So what did the suits do? Beg for them not to cancel their many orders? C > Re-hire fired knowledgeable support people just for this company? H > Apologize in person? Offer a month's worth of toner for free? What did
 > they do? >  > AEF   C More: Did HP lose the many orders? And why are so many companies so " secretive about their use of VMS?    AEF    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2006 11:49:34 -0800% From: "lp" <larrypwilliams@gmail.com> " Subject: Re: recursive copy in VMSB Message-ID: <1164916174.192817.111010@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>   Try the following:  ; BACKUP SYS$LOGIN:[.*...]*.*;* DISK$ABC:[TEST]TEST.BCK /SAVE        thick_guy_9 wrote: > Guys7 > I am looking for a way to do a recursive copy in VMS.  >  > something like cp -r.  >  > I tried the foll soln:B > $ backup sys$login:[000000...]*.*;* disk$abc:[test]test.bck/save > $ set def disk$abc:[test]  > $ backup test.bck/save > A > but it doesn't create the directory tree, just all files in one  > directory. > = > Any suggestions? I tried reading about RCP (too confusing).  >  > Can I make BACKUP work? How? >  > thanks in advance    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2006 16:54:44 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>" Subject: Re: recursive copy in VMSB Message-ID: <1164934484.522968.242080@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Michael D. Ober wrote:3 > > Bob, you just got baited by JF - a known troll.  > J > OK, then tell me how many times in your life you have wanted to copy all6 > files from a directory TREE onto a single directory.  < Can't think of any offhand. If I do later, I'll report back!  M > About the only use I might see of this would be copying disk directory tree L > to a ODS2 mounted tape.  But usually, people would be using a saveset whenC > copying to tape instead of copying files as individual entities).    Yup.  K > In my case, making a mistake in the backup command resulting in a request I > to copy a whole directory tree resulting in a flat directory output has 2 > happened often and it is a real pain to cleanup.  F What BACKUP command did you expect would restore a tree to a tree thatA didn't include the ellipsis wildcard (aside from BACKUP/IMAGE and  BACKUP/PHYSICAL, of course)?    AEF (PROUD TO BE UPPERCASE!) &-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 23:38:15 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> " Subject: Re: recursive copy in VMS8 Message-ID: <bf152$456fb1a5$cef8887a$11259@TEKSAVVY.COM>  
 AEF wrote:H > What BACKUP command did you expect would restore a tree to a tree thatC > didn't include the ellipsis wildcard (aside from BACKUP/IMAGE and  > BACKUP/PHYSICAL, of course)?  K The problem is that you need the ... at both ends, and that isn't natural.  E If you forget it in the destination, then you end up with a big mess.   E And if you do BACKUP [.recipes...]*.*  disk:[chocolate...]  it isn't  G obvious if the tree will be replicated under [chocolate.recipes...] or   under [chocolate...]  7 This is stuff that a MAC used never has to worry about.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 01:49:01 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> = Subject: Re: Thoughts on the book: DEC is dead, long live DEC J Message-ID: <paul.sture.nospam-503D78.01490101122006@mac.sture.homeip.net>  ? In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-EU4BBohVt2nL@dave2_os2.home.ours>, 4  "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> wrote:  C > When you emulate/clone something, it's always useful to have the  F > original to test against. Plus, you learn a lot more about how it's ' > done when you re-implement something.   , Wasn't cloning an IBM PC how Compaq started?   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:48:09 -0700 $ From: Jeff Campbell <n8wxs@arrl.net>* Subject: Re: VAX 11/730 SABACKUP questions3 Message-ID: <1164930573_11157@sp6iad.superfeed.net>    ChrisQuayle wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: >> Chris Scheers wrote:  >>C >>> I need some help from the way back machine.  (Old farts unite!)  >>> I >>> I have a client with an IDC 11/730 (R80/RL02/TU80).  They don't want   >>> to replace it. >> >>H >> Having followed this thread, I've learned that the 730 is a lot less I >> flexible in what it will boot from.  I'm also wondering how many R80s   >> int he world still work.  >>I >> Is there a particular reason the customer doesn't want to replace the  E >> system?  You didn't say they can't replace it, so I'm assuming it  F >> could be replaced.  Any of the MicroVAX 3100 systems would be much ' >> better and would support a CD drive.  >> > K > Probably none. The R80 was, I think, dec's first attempt at a home grown  G > wini and they were not renown for reliability. The later RAxx series   > were much better.  > F > A 730 packaged system (R80 + RL02) was a great system though and my  > first serious home machine.   ? A good friend of mine who is no longer with us had a 730 in his * laundry room, next to the washing machine.  . It's DECNET name was MAYTAG::, of course!  8-)  - > The R80 was so flaky that it was touch and  E > go if it would finish booting from cold, but was fine once the hda  H > warmed up. Did quite a lot of good (paying) work on it and eventually I > changed to a Fujitsu 2333 330meg wini and Emulex UD33 controller. Also  I > had an RA60 at one stage and still have several disk packs in the loft  K > soemwhere, though no drive, uda or vax to read them. Very fond memories,   > if that's the right word.  > J > I would have thought a uVaxII would be better - rock solid hardware and I > still plenty of Qbus boards around, though rd53 and rd54 are like gold  D > dust now. Third part Emulex or Dilog + smd drives would be better. > @ > If the op were in the uk, would offer to build a system :-)... >  > Chris    Jeff Campbell N8WXS   Q ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:19:58 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> * Subject: Re: VAX 11/730 SABACKUP questions0 Message-ID: <4t9hq9F12i2hsU1@mid.individual.net>   Dave Froble wrote: > Chris Scheers wrote:B >> I need some help from the way back machine.  (Old farts unite!) >>H >> I have a client with an IDC 11/730 (R80/RL02/TU80).  They don't want  >> to replace it.  >>J >> The system disk (R80) died and has been replaced.  Now they can't find  >> their SABACKUP media. >>I >> What are my options here?  I know how to boot SABACKUP from a TU58 or  I >> RL02, but I don't have a machine that I can use to generate media for   >> them. >>G >> Is there a way to boot a 730 from the TU80?  If so, could some kind  6 >> soul provide me with the relevant console commands? >>I >> With a DEUNA, is there a way to boot a 730 as a satellite?  How about   >> from an Infoserver? >>E >> If, as I suspect, I am out of luck on these alternate methods, is  J >> someone set up to generate SABACKUP media on TU58 or RL02?  The target D >> OS is VMS 5.4, but I think any 5.2 or later SABACKUP should work. >>	 >> Thanx!  >> >  > Chris, > E > VMS at one time was distributed on 9-track tape.  The only thing I  > > cannot remember is whether SA BACKUP was on a separate tape. > I > Regardless, if you have access to another 9-track drive, you should be  G > able to copy or build SA BACKUP on a tape.  (It has been a very long   > time, so I could be wrong.)  > J > To boot the tape, for example, MTA0:, I believe you just do that at the  > console prompt, BOOT MTA0  >  > Remember STABACKIT    E I'm aware of these.  If there is an incantation to get a 730 to boot  L from a 9-track, I would like to know what it is.  "BOOT MTA0" will NOT work.  B The only documented way to boot SABACKUP on a 730 that I can find G requires booting it from a disk.  Generally this means a TU58 set or a  D copy installed on the system disk.  Since the system disk had to be B replaced, that copy is gone and now they can't find the TU58 copy.  I I need a way to boot SABACKUP so I can restore a disk image.  Then I can  ' have SABACKUP on the system disk again.    It's a chicken and egg problem.    --  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:23:53 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> * Subject: Re: VAX 11/730 SABACKUP questions0 Message-ID: <4t9i1hF12i2hsU2@mid.individual.net>   rvfulltime wrote: V > On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:22:48 -0600, Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> wrote: > B >> I need some help from the way back machine.  (Old farts unite!) >>K >> I have a client with an IDC 11/730 (R80/RL02/TU80).  They don't want to   >> replace it. >>J >> The system disk (R80) died and has been replaced.  Now they can't find  >> their SABACKUP media. >>I >> What are my options here?  I know how to boot SABACKUP from a TU58 or  N >> RL02, but I don't have a machine that I can use to generate media for them. >>L >> Is there a way to boot a 730 from the TU80?  If so, could some kind soul 1 >> provide me with the relevant console commands?  >>I >> With a DEUNA, is there a way to boot a 730 as a satellite?  How about   >>from an Infoserver? E >> If, as I suspect, I am out of luck on these alternate methods, is  J >> someone set up to generate SABACKUP media on TU58 or RL02?  The target D >> OS is VMS 5.4, but I think any 5.2 or later SABACKUP should work. >>	 >> Thanx!  > L > I owned one of two of these critters a while ago.  The 730 is too dumb andL > stupid to hardware boot any device other than the TU58.  It actually loadsN > the microcode from the TU58 tape.  Once it does that, it boots the disk.  InQ > fact, if I remember correctly, there are multiple files on the tape that can be I > loaded, depending upon which disk you wanted to boot.  Placing the boot R > file for this disk you want to boot at the front of the tape can reduce the timeO > it takes to load the tape by up to 2 or 3 minutes.  I'm afraid you'll need to 6 > find someone that can loan you their boot TU58 tape. > J > It must have been a long time since you powered off that 730.  Next time4 > leave the TU58 cartdrige in the drive.  Good luck.    G The microcode and console tapes are available.  As mentioned, they are   kept in the machine.  F What is missing is the TU58 SABACKUP tape set.  Normally, this is not J kept in the machine.  (Actually, since it is multiple tapes, it can't be.)   --  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:43:24 -0800 / From: rvfulltime <rvfulltime@_removeme_isp.com> * Subject: Re: VAX 11/730 SABACKUP questions8 Message-ID: <f8fvm2t2df8l2h8j3tdmtn0o8041k1cmcr@4ax.com>  T On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:23:53 -0600, Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> wrote:   >rvfulltime wrote:W >> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:22:48 -0600, Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> wrote:  >>  C >>> I need some help from the way back machine.  (Old farts unite!)  >>> L >>> I have a client with an IDC 11/730 (R80/RL02/TU80).  They don't want to  >>> replace it.  >>> K >>> The system disk (R80) died and has been replaced.  Now they can't find   >>> their SABACKUP media.  >>> J >>> What are my options here?  I know how to boot SABACKUP from a TU58 or O >>> RL02, but I don't have a machine that I can use to generate media for them.  >>> M >>> Is there a way to boot a 730 from the TU80?  If so, could some kind soul  2 >>> provide me with the relevant console commands? >>> J >>> With a DEUNA, is there a way to boot a 730 as a satellite?  How about  >>>from an Infoserver?F >>> If, as I suspect, I am out of luck on these alternate methods, is K >>> someone set up to generate SABACKUP media on TU58 or RL02?  The target  E >>> OS is VMS 5.4, but I think any 5.2 or later SABACKUP should work.  >>> 
 >>> Thanx! >>  M >> I owned one of two of these critters a while ago.  The 730 is too dumb and M >> stupid to hardware boot any device other than the TU58.  It actually loads O >> the microcode from the TU58 tape.  Once it does that, it boots the disk.  In R >> fact, if I remember correctly, there are multiple files on the tape that can beJ >> loaded, depending upon which disk you wanted to boot.  Placing the bootS >> file for this disk you want to boot at the front of the tape can reduce the time P >> it takes to load the tape by up to 2 or 3 minutes.  I'm afraid you'll need to7 >> find someone that can loan you their boot TU58 tape.  >>  K >> It must have been a long time since you powered off that 730.  Next time 5 >> leave the TU58 cartdrige in the drive.  Good luck.  >  > H >The microcode and console tapes are available.  As mentioned, they are  >kept in the machine.  > G >What is missing is the TU58 SABACKUP tape set.  Normally, this is not  K >kept in the machine.  (Actually, since it is multiple tapes, it can't be.)   R Sorry if I misinterpreted it.  If I recall correctly, the boot code found on TU58sM only support the R80 or the RL02 disks.  I don't believe that it supports any E tape drives, because the tape drive needs to be on a separate unibus  K controller.  The TU58 had a capacity of an 8" floppy disk and was processed K like it was a floppy disk.  I am not aware that SABACKUP could be on a TU58 G media.   As far as I know you'll need to find someone that can make you  an RL02 with SABACKUP.  O I apologize for my faulty memory, but I got rid of the 730s about 15 years ago. L and haven't done any VMS work for about 4 years.  I just sort of hang around$ here out of curiosity and nostalgia.   	Randy Park    --  = Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.660 ************************