/ INFO-VAX	Sun, 01 Jan 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 2       Contents: Re: OT: Mozilla/Firefox  RE: OT: Mozilla/Firefox I RE: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year with a major cert ...) I RE: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year with a major cert ...) I RE: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year with a major cert ...) I Re: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year with a major cert ...) I Re: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year with a major cert ...)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:14:27 +0100 3 From: Michael Unger <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com>   Subject: Re: OT: Mozilla/Firefox, Message-ID: <41qdt1F1emj38U1@individual.net>  ) On 2006-01-01 15:59, "Main, Kerry" wrote:    > [...]  > D > Web masters that do not check their online work with different webG > browsers before publishing them in production are simply using sloppy G > business prctices to minimize the work that they have to do. It is no H > different than a programmer testing an application from an application> > developer perspective and not from an end user perspective.   C Well, *if* "webmaster@domain" doesn't just result in a non-delivery H report, and *if* I get an answer at all commenting on my complaint, thenH in most cases it is simply saying "95+% of our visitors use the InternetF Explorer, we don't care about others". (These statistics may be crappyA of course due to depending on JavaScript even if the browser used 9 doesn't support JS at all or has JS disabled on purpose.)    > [...]    Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. 5 My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 12:11:08 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>   Subject: RE: OT: Mozilla/FirefoxR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB7738E4@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----? > From: Michael Unger [mailto:spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com]=20   > Sent: January 1, 2006 10:14 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " > Subject: Re: OT: Mozilla/Firefox >=20+ > On 2006-01-01 15:59, "Main, Kerry" wrote:  >=20	 > > [...]  > >=20F > > Web masters that do not check their online work with different web? > > browsers before publishing them in production are simply=20  > using sloppy? > > business prctices to minimize the work that they have to=20  > do. It is noA > > different than a programmer testing an application from an=20 
 > application B > > developer perspective and not from an end user perspective.=20 >=20E > Well, *if* "webmaster@domain" doesn't just result in a non-delivery = > report, and *if* I get an answer at all commenting on my=20  > complaint, then @ > in most cases it is simply saying "95+% of our visitors use=20 > the InternetH > Explorer, we don't care about others". (These statistics may be crappyC > of course due to depending on JavaScript even if the browser used ; > doesn't support JS at all or has JS disabled on purpose.)  >=20	 > > [...]  >=20   Michael -=20  D That is a techie response - not typically the response a business or senior manager would take.   Consider the following:   D - many businesses are becoming inter-related with supplier web based- processes being used to fill critical orders. E - universities and colleges are offering more online courses that are " remotely accessed from everywhere.G - cell phones, PDA's and other mobile devices like iPods are being used  to access the Internet.   F A business person would state "I want our web site(s) to be compatible with all of the above."   G A techie web master response with limited understanding of the business E requirements would be "the heck with everyone who does not agree with H what I think is the browser they should be using. I like IE and it makesE my job easier. More importantly, as the webmaster, I am the expert so 1 those business folks can darn well listen to me."   1 [reminds me of the "operator from hell" jokes ..]   B There is a key question to ask. Who is driving your business - the business groups or the techies?   E For those who have outsourced their web site to some third party, all C you have to do is make it one of the business requirements that the > third party follow web standards and that they will fix issuesC identified as not adhering to web standards. That way you avoid the  browser religion wars.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:59:20 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> R Subject: RE: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year with a major cert ...)R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB7738E1@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----E > From: johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com [mailto:johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com]=20   > Sent: January 1, 2006 12:00 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com @ > Subject: Re: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year=20 > with a major cert ...) >=20 >=20 > Bill Gunshannon wrote:: > > you can complain to has no control over it.  That's=20 > reality.  The choiceA > > of IE support to the detriment of all other browsers is as=20  > much industry @ > > standard as the x86 architecture, that's reality.  Squeek=20 > all you want, > > > this is yert another place where MS has won and all the=20 > squeeking in the: > > world won't change it until MS is supplanted as the=20 > industry standard. >=20A > But Bill, how can MS be supplanted if nobody squeeks?   Without E > squeeking the corporations don't know people can't access their web D > sites.  If corporations don't know then their web site consultantsH > can't be directed to change the sites.  If the sites don't change then> > MS wins and is NEVER supplanted.  The trick is to get the=20 > critical mass B > of squeekers so the corporations do something.  Your way just=20 > keeps the 
 > status quo.  >=20 >=20  @ As john stated, if you don't squeak no one will change anything.  E Bottom line is that I have heard all of the arguments for proprietary B browers and/or web sites before e.g. "users or readers will have aE better "experience" (gag..) or "IE is built in.." or any of the other E "techie" answers to why they made something in the browser or the web  site proprietary ..   @ Bottom line when you cut all the crap away is that web sites andG browsers are a means to provide information in a safe and secure manner F to and from the providers and readers of that information. That is whyH there are web standards to ensure interoperability and inter-readability of that information.  E Making either the information source or the reader proprietary in any D way that prevents the distribution of this information in any way is& just bad business practice. Period.=20  B Web masters that do not check their online work with different webE browsers before publishing them in production are simply using sloppy E business prctices to minimize the work that they have to do. It is no F different than a programmer testing an application from an application> developer perspective and not from an end user perspective.=20  ; Flush all of the techie crap and look at it from a business F perespective. Do you think senior managers would be more interested inG reaching a wider audience or rather have a subset of their readers have F problems reading their site, get frustrated, assume that company has a bad web site and leave?   D Remember that the squeaky wheel will eventually get some oil when it bothers you enough.    Regards     
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 10:15:45 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> R Subject: RE: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year with a major cert ...)R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB7738E2@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----$ > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu=20A > [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon   > Sent: January 1, 2006 12:11 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com @ > Subject: Re: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year=20 > with a major cert ...) >=20E > In article <1136091616.753455.282330@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, @ > 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: > >=20 > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:; > >> you can complain to has no control over it.  That's=20  > reality.  The choiceB > >> of IE support to the detriment of all other browsers is as=20 > much industry A > >> standard as the x86 architecture, that's reality.  Squeek=20  > all you want, ? > >> this is yert another place where MS has won and all the=20  > squeeking in the; > >> world won't change it until MS is supplanted as the=20  > industry standard. > >=20C > > But Bill, how can MS be supplanted if nobody squeeks?   Without G > > squeeking the corporations don't know people can't access their web F > > sites.  If corporations don't know then their web site consultantsA > > can't be directed to change the sites.  If the sites don't=20 
 > change then @ > > MS wins and is NEVER supplanted.  The trick is to get the=20 > critical mass ? > > of squeekers so the corporations do something.  Your way=20  > just keeps the > > status quo.  >=20? > The Linuxoids have been squeeking for more than a decade. =20  > What's on your > office desktop?  >=20 > bill >=20  C There is no browser that has won anything yet. The battles are only G beginning and will likely continue for years - hence the importance for B adhering to web standards is going to be even more critical in the future.   G Fwiw, I use Opera where tabbed browsing has been common for years and a E fanatical adherance to web standards is the norm - not the exception. E Opera browser also supports voice activation features for the techies C that like cool stuff. Its now also completely free - up until a few G months ago, the free version had an ad window in the upper right corner B (which was easy to ignore if you chose to do that), but that is no0 longer the case. Free version has no ad windows.  
 www.opera.com   H Also, it appears Opera is gathering some ground rather quickly with some big name partners like Google:3 http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1907120,00.asp   D Google and Opera Make a Mobile Search Connection - December 30, 2005G Google Inc.'s search features will be included within the Opera Mini, a B new browser for cell phones due next month from Norway-based Opera
 Software SSA.   E The one-year agreement with Google, unveiled Thursday, also calls for E Google to be the default search engine for Opera Mobile, a cell phone ( Web browser now available from Opera.=20  E The deal is no surprise. Google is also the default search engine for C Opera's Web browsers meant for personal computers. In fact, the two H companies' ties run so deep that occasionally rumors surface that Google is buying Opera.  	 [snip ..]    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 10:47:59 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> R Subject: RE: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year with a major cert ...)R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB7738E3@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----. > From: AEF [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com]=20" > Sent: December 31, 2005 10:40 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com @ > Subject: Re: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year=20 > with a major cert ...) >=20 >=20 > AEF wrote: > > BRAD wrote:  > > > Rich Jordan wrote:	 > > [...]  > > > > > > > It continues to amaze me that so many people have not=20 > heard of (or do ? > > > not use) Mozilla/Firefox - people who consider themselves < > > > "internet-savvy".  It sure makes surfing easier and=20 > safer.  I guess too @ > > > many folks are used to beating themselves over the head=20 > with Internet A > > > Exploder, and have gotten used to the dull ache of Windows.  > > = > > [Normally, I really hate Microsoft, but there are some=20  > exceptions. This > > is one of them.] > > > > > Well, some of us prefer Internet Exploder. It does some=20 > things MozillaH > > can't. If you hate the mouse, and I surely do, IE is better. In most > [...]  >=20? > And here's another thing I don't like about Firefox: Bookmark ; > management. I can't use a keyboard shortcut to get to the F > search-results pane: I am forced to use the stupid mouse. In IE, theB > bookmarks (favorites) are just files I can manipulate in WindowsC > Explorer. I don't even bother with the IE Favorites Organize crap D > because it is total crap. (It gives you one of those really stupidA > windows that are way too small and can't be maximized. It is=20  > one of the= > most worthless pieces of software I have ever seen in my=20  > life.) InsteadF > I just have a shortcut on my desktop that opens the Favorites folderC > and I can manipulate the favorites and search them with the usual A > Windows stuff -- all without touching the mouse. And why is the @ > Location column in the Firefox bookmark-search window severelyF > truncated leaving a huge blank column for non-existent descriptions. > That's a Microsoft stupidity!  >=20H > I'm glad that many of you are happy with Firefox. Just want to let youF > know it's not better for everyone as many seem to think -- and maybe5 > find out secret ways to make it work better for me!  >=20    D Try Opera if you are not happy with Firefox .. I have tried both andB find Firefox V1.5 better than IE, but still find Firefox to be way behind Opera.=20  
 www.opera.com 3 http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1907120,00.asp F "Google and Opera Make a Mobile Search Connection - December 30, 2005"   Course, to each their own ..   :-)    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2006 15:49:58 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)R Subject: Re: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year with a major cert ...), Message-ID: <41qc16F1fm1vcU1@individual.net>  G In article <1rudnU3IpaBD7CrenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>, + 	Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: ! > johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:  >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>  K >>>you can complain to has no control over it.  That's reality.  The choice K >>>of IE support to the detriment of all other browsers is as much industry J >>>standard as the x86 architecture, that's reality.  Squeek all you want,K >>>this is yert another place where MS has won and all the squeeking in the I >>>world won't change it until MS is supplanted as the industry standard.  >>   >>  8 >> But Bill, how can MS be supplanted if nobody squeeks? > I > Not a problem:  people are squeaking enough already - over 10% Firefox  D > penetration in just a couple of years, and most Web sites started D > attempting to avoid losing such a non-trivial percentage of their @ > clientele quite a while ago (especially since it's arguably a H > disproportionally important 10+%).  It is *very* rarely that I notice J > any difficulty using Firefox on any site these days (except, of course, J > Microsoft's Update site which relies heavily upon ActiveX - though most * > other Microsoft sites work well enough). > I > Bill can choose to be a part of that, or not, without making a whit of  
 > difference.   I Don't get me wrong.  I think BG has ethics lower than the average lawyer. J I think MS should have been fined out of existence more than a decade ago.G But, I am also not Don Quioxte.  I stopped tilting at windmills a long,  long time ago.    @        "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot?         change, the courage to change the things I can, and the <         wisdom to know the difference. " - Reinhold Niebuhr    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2006 16:05:08 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)R Subject: Re: OT: Mozilla/Firefox (was:Re: Windoze ends year with a major cert ...), Message-ID: <41qctkF1fogh1U1@individual.net>  $ In article <dp8h86$lsv$1@online.de>,S 	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: I > In article <1rudnU3IpaBD7CrenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>, - > Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   > J >> Not a problem:  people are squeaking enough already - over 10% Firefox E >> penetration in just a couple of years, and most Web sites started   > F > In Germany (perhaps in most of Europe) the figure is higher, perhaps > 30%.    F And many places are going the other way.  Remember, it is not what theB individual at home uses that sways the market, it is what businessG decides is the standard.  After Netscape being the default browser (and E many of the web pages only working with Netscape) for a long time the I University has recently made IE the only supported browser.  Why? Because E that is what Banner and Pipeline and all the other vendors we buy web E products from (Maybe even Oracle!) have standardized on.  We have web D pages that we have to use that don't work with anything but IE (likeF where I have to input my hours in order to get payed, or where all theF students have to go to register for classes, or where the faculty haveG to go to get their classlists....  I hope you get the picture!)  So, it G really doesn't matter what I like or don't like, what I prefer or don't G prefer.  I do what my boss says or I look for another job.  Then we can I look at DOD (my other job).  No one installs anything on government owned G PC's.  You run what the issuing agency puts on it.  At this point, that H is not Mozilla or Firefox and I see no move in that direction.  I expectI most of the serious corporate world forces the same constraints on all of % their corporate owned infrastructure.    G Until such time as MS is pushed fromt he top of the hill IE will remain K the industry standard and the majority of the corporate world will continue H to things like FrontPage and the code that makes up most of the web will) be to Microsoft's standard and not W3C's.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.002 ************************