0 INFO-VAX	Fri, 20 Jan 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 40      Contents:( Re: Email Tadpole for itanium notebooks!( Re: Email Tadpole for itanium notebooks! Re: ETHERMON for Alpha?  Re: ETHERMON for Alpha?  Re: ETHERMON for Alpha? & Re: Extract SYSUAF.DAT into a CSV File7 Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito 7 Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito 7 Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito 7 Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito 7 Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito 7 Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito 7 Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito 7 Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito 7 Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito  Island Datastore Tape Drives$ Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now!$ Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now!$ Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now!$ Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now!$ Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now!$ Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now! Re: LK463 (and Windows XP)7 Solaris now available for HP Opteron blades but not VMS ; Re: Swiss German keyboard on PWS600au console and CDE login  TCPIP SMTP: fails a relay test" Re: TCPIP SMTP: fails a relay test, What ECOs for Alpha VMS7-2 since a year ago?0 Re: What ECOs for Alpha VMS7-2 since a year ago?& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! Re: [OT] For Mac fans... :-)K [OT] Google searching by country - Was: Re: [OT] For Mac fans... :-) :-):-)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 07:30:22 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 1 Subject: Re: Email Tadpole for itanium notebooks! 3 Message-ID: <228TChyO+x9r@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <1137695064.053391.217260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes: A > this is up to intel to make happen, not wait for some vendor to D > give it a try ... if you want itanium to succeed, you need to make > this happen! >   2    Maybe they can convince Jobs to put OS X on it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:28:08 +0100 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>1 Subject: Re: Email Tadpole for itanium notebooks! , Message-ID: <43cabpF1mtrsaU1@individual.net>   Bob Koehler wrote:a > In article <1137695064.053391.217260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes:  > A >>this is up to intel to make happen, not wait for some vendor to D >>give it a try ... if you want itanium to succeed, you need to make >>this happen! >> >  > 4 >    Maybe they can convince Jobs to put OS X on it. > H Speculation is flying fast and I don't trust much of it, but I caught a H comment a couple of days ago that Apple want to be totally Intel by the  end of this year.   I That gives a choice of 2 architectures. Someone commented here that Jobs  I needs a sweetener to go Itanium - well he must have some clout given the  ; coup Intel has just achieved with switching Apple to Intel.    Pure speculation of course...    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 05:05:27 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   Subject: Re: ETHERMON for Alpha?( Message-ID: <ops3ohbdzgzgicya@hyrrokkin>  K On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:53:00 -0500, Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net>    wrote:  . > There's a TCPDUMP for v5.4 of TCP/IP for VMS   doesn't show up under HELP   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:22:57 +0200 - From: "Kari Keronen" <kari.keronen@digita.fi>   Subject: Re: ETHERMON for Alpha?9 Message-ID: <3x5Af.4753$t77.2827@reader1.news.jippii.net>   1 "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> kirjoitti viestiss " news:ops3ohbdzgzgicya@hyrrokkin...K > On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:53:00 -0500, Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net>  > wrote: > 0 > > There's a TCPDUMP for v5.4 of TCP/IP for VMS >  > doesn't show up under HELP  
 Strange... HANHI$ tcpip sho vers   9 HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 2   , on a AlphaServer DS15 running OpenVMS V7.3-2   HANHI$ help tcpdump    TCPDUMP   , Provides dump analysis and packet capturing.   <snip>   HANHI$ help tcptrace   TCPTRACE  @ Starts the TCPTRACE utility. The TCPTRACE utility lets you trace  < packet flow between the local host and remote hosts. You can  ? either monitor all packet flow or use the various qualifiers to   ' monitor only those packets of interest.    <snip>   -Kari-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 06:08:09 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   Subject: Re: ETHERMON for Alpha?( Message-ID: <ops3oj7viyzgicya@hyrrokkin>  K On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:22:57 +0200, Kari Keronen <kari.keronen@digita.fi>    wrote:   > 3 > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> kirjoitti viestiss $ > news:ops3ohbdzgzgicya@hyrrokkin...5 >> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:53:00 -0500, Ken Robinson    >> <kenrbnsn1@patmedia.net> 	 >> wrote:  >>1 >> > There's a TCPDUMP for v5.4 of TCP/IP for VMS  >> >> doesn't show up under HELP  >  > Strange... > HANHI$ tcpip sho vers  > ; > HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 2  > . > on a AlphaServer DS15 running OpenVMS V7.3-2 >  > HANHI$ help tcpdump  > 	 > TCPDUMP  > . > Provides dump analysis and packet capturing. >  > <snip> >  > HANHI$ help tcptrace > 
 > TCPTRACE > B > Starts the TCPTRACE utility. The TCPTRACE utility lets you trace > > > packet flow between the local host and remote hosts. You can > A > either monitor all packet flow or use the various qualifiers to  > ) > monitor only those packets of interest.  >  > <snip> >  > -Kari- > ' My error,  I thought it was under TCPIP    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:50:42 +0100 + From: fekko stubbe <fekko.stubbe@xs4all.nl> / Subject: Re: Extract SYSUAF.DAT into a CSV File 6 Message-ID: <43d12243$0$11069$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>   >  > $ @   make_dix_alpha.com link H > %DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling >  \SAY\( > %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 2 undefined symbols:% > %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         OTS$CVT_T_S % > %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         OTS$CVT_T_T ; > %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol OTS$CVT_T_S referenced + >         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000030 . >         in module DIX_CON_REAL_S_ASCINT file7 > JAM351:[NORM.DIX.ALPHA]DIX_CON_LIBRARY_NOT_VAX.OBJ;21 ; > %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol OTS$CVT_T_T referenced + >         in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000030 . >         in module DIX_CON_REAL_T_ASCINT file7 > JAM351:[NORM.DIX.ALPHA]DIX_CON_LIBRARY_NOT_VAX.OBJ;21 G As more people suggested, the SAY is just a symbol for write sys$output F In one of the previous versions of DIX, the build file(s) contained a G definition, but is seams to have disappeared. I corrected that one for  , the next release (4.3) coming out next week.  I The symbols OTS$CVT_T_S and OTS$CTV_T_T are used to convert real*4 (IEEE  H format) and real*8 (IEEE format to text). As long as your data does not G contain these datatypes, DIX will work fine. I inserted those routines  I starting on a 7.3-2 VMS and did not realize that that would be a problem  H on an older VMS-version. This problem is also solved in the 4.3 version.  $ Sorry for the problems, Fekko Stubbe   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 03:04:29 -0800* From: "Alan Greig" <greigaln@netscape.net>@ Subject: Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from MontecitoC Message-ID: <1137755069.236088.206440@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    GreyCloud wrote: > Alan Greig wrote:  > ?  > C > It's possible.  He may be looking into something for his high end + > towers, but only if he gets a sweet deal.   C Why? There is no significant performance advantage to justify this? G Itanium is not now for the low end or the desktop. That has been stated G over and over again by Intel and has also been stated explicity by Rich A Marcello (who actually claims it was his idea). It's a fantasy to D believe that Apple will use Itanium any time soon - or ever for that matter.   G Intel could give him the entire stock for free and I'm sure he wouldn't 	 use them.    > --   > Where are we going? " > And why am I in this handbasket?   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 07:42:05 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) @ Subject: Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito3 Message-ID: <JIO3svd1lNd+@eisner.encompasserve.org>   o In article <1137718772.888970.77580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "Alan Greig" <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:  >  > GreyCloud wrote: > J >> After scrounging around my Mac developer header files, I ran into a lot0 >> of Itanium based code inside the new headers.K >> Makes ya wonder if Intel is going to offer Jobs a good deal on Itaniums.  > H > Nope. Not a chance. However Apple almost went down the Itanium route aH > few years ago so you may be seeing the remains of that. Or it has justH > trickled into header files because Itaniums exist and run Unix. Do youG > honestlty think Apple would move to X86 now if they thought there was I > even the remotest chance of moving to Itanium in the forseeable future?   E    Yes.  Since OS X sits on a BSD kernel on a Mach micro-kernel, once C    Apple gets endian dependencies out of its own code they can port     rapidly to almost anything.  F    Maybe Jobs will look around and buy up Alpha licenses so he can getE    a really fast processor to run OS X on.  Heck, he could offer both :    big-endian and little-endian OS X on the same hardware.   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2006 14:13:23 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)@ Subject: Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito, Message-ID: <43c9g2F1mv5enU1@individual.net>  3 In article <JIO3svd1lNd+@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:q > In article <1137718772.888970.77580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "Alan Greig" <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:  >>   >> GreyCloud wrote:  >>  K >>> After scrounging around my Mac developer header files, I ran into a lot 1 >>> of Itanium based code inside the new headers. L >>> Makes ya wonder if Intel is going to offer Jobs a good deal on Itaniums. >>  I >> Nope. Not a chance. However Apple almost went down the Itanium route a I >> few years ago so you may be seeing the remains of that. Or it has just I >> trickled into header files because Itaniums exist and run Unix. Do you H >> honestlty think Apple would move to X86 now if they thought there wasJ >> even the remotest chance of moving to Itanium in the forseeable future? > G >    Yes.  Since OS X sits on a BSD kernel on a Mach micro-kernel, once E >    Apple gets endian dependencies out of its own code they can port   >    rapidly to almost anything.  H Not being in the least bit interested in Macs I never looked but I thinkF this is wrong.  OSX, from what I have read, is a Mach micro-kernel andH the FreeBSD userland.  No BSD kernel.  Running two kernels really soundsE silly anyway. But then, it's a Mac, who knows.  After all, the latest H suggestion read to me like someone wanting to run VMS on top of Wine, on top of OSX.  I make that to be:     VMS -> Wine -> Mach -> BSD F Maybe we should throw SIMH in there somewhere.  We couls always try to> set the record for the most layers in an emulated system.  :-)   > H >    Maybe Jobs will look around and buy up Alpha licenses so he can get. >    a really fast processor to run OS X on.    D Excsue me, but he already had that.  He is apparently abandoning theF really fast Power architecture in favor of x86.  Why would he now wantH to move to a dead architecture?  He ahas already taken a big enough stepJ backwards. (I am not saying that Alpha as an architecture would be anotherG step backwards, only that the Alpha is dead.  We have had the wake.  We 7 threw dirt on it.  It is time to let it rest in peace.)   F >                                            Heck, he could offer both< >    big-endian and little-endian OS X on the same hardware.    And the advantage of that is???    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:28:53 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> @ Subject: Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito, Message-ID: <43D101B4.7266FB0E@teksavvy.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:M > >> Makes ya wonder if Intel is going to offer Jobs a good deal on Itaniums.   H >    Maybe Jobs will look around and buy up Alpha licenses so he can getG >    a really fast processor to run OS X on.  Heck, he could offer both < >    big-endian and little-endian OS X on the same hardware.    G You need to look at the reasons Apple dumped PowerPc to go to the 8086:   F Apple was having difficulty in sourcing fully scaled chips from laptopH to datacentre. Apple wasn't big enough t justify the costs of developing3 its own custom PowerPC versions in all those sizes.   D By moving to the 8086, Apple gets fully scaled 8086s from plamtop toE datacentre because the 8086 market is big enough to justify all those # form factors and development costs.   @ The 8086's market is being widened to even higher end computers.    E For Alpha and that IA64 thing, neither can give Apple the scalability   Apple needs. It is a no brainer.  F Yes, they *could* have. But Digital decided not to scale Alpha down to compete against wintels.  C And by the way, some recent articles indicated that Apple seriously : considered moving from 68000 to SPARC instead of PowerPC.   F Had Apple moved to Alpha, I suspect Digital might still be alive todayL because it wouldn't have tried to become just another 8086 box manufacturer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:00:48 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> @ Subject: Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito( Message-ID: <ops3opfmr2zgicya@hyrrokkin>  . On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:36:55 -0500, JF Mezei  % <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:G >> Excsue me, but he already had that.  He is apparently abandoning the I >> really fast Power architecture in favor of x86.  ... He ahas already    >> taken a big enough step
 >> backwards.  >  > H > Don't forget that Apple wasn't using off-the shelf IBM Power chips. ItJ > was getting custom chips made with a few modifications. And Apple wasn'tH > big enough to tickle IBM's interest. Its laptop chips were already oneI > generation behind and done by what used to be Motorola's chip division. ) > (PowerPC was a IBM/Apple/Moto project).  > H > So moving from an old PowerPC chip in its laptops to current 8086s for, > laptops represents a boost in performance. > F > Apple wanted a wide range of Apple POWERPC chips from laptops to bigH > servers. So a small volume divided into multiple variants of the chip.  # They also get a second source, AMD.  > C > the game console makers want one specific variant of the chip and 7 > promise high volumes.  Guess which one IBM prefered ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:36:55 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> @ Subject: Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito, Message-ID: <43D10395.82DA84B3@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:F > Excsue me, but he already had that.  He is apparently abandoning the^ > really fast Power architecture in favor of x86.  ... He ahas already taken a big enough step
 > backwards.      F Don't forget that Apple wasn't using off-the shelf IBM Power chips. ItH was getting custom chips made with a few modifications. And Apple wasn'tF big enough to tickle IBM's interest. Its laptop chips were already oneG generation behind and done by what used to be Motorola's chip division. ' (PowerPC was a IBM/Apple/Moto project).   F So moving from an old PowerPC chip in its laptops to current 8086s for* laptops represents a boost in performance.  D Apple wanted a wide range of Apple POWERPC chips from laptops to bigF servers. So a small volume divided into multiple variants of the chip.  A the game console makers want one specific variant of the chip and 5 promise high volumes.  Guess which one IBM prefered ?    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2006 16:24:25 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)@ Subject: Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito, Message-ID: <43ch5pF1mtn80U1@individual.net>  , In article <43D10395.82DA84B3@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:G >> Excsue me, but he already had that.  He is apparently abandoning the _ >> really fast Power architecture in favor of x86.  ... He ahas already taken a big enough step  >> backwards.  >  > H > Don't forget that Apple wasn't using off-the shelf IBM Power chips. ItJ > was getting custom chips made with a few modifications. And Apple wasn'tH > big enough to tickle IBM's interest. Its laptop chips were already oneI > generation behind and done by what used to be Motorola's chip division. ) > (PowerPC was a IBM/Apple/Moto project).   D ANd you think that Intel is going to be willing to make custom chipsG just to keep Apple happy?  Not likely.  And that means that Apple could C very likely have used standard Power chips as well.  They went with D Intel in order to ride the wave.  And that wave is not Itanium it is x86.  H > So moving from an old PowerPC chip in its laptops to current 8086s for, > laptops represents a boost in performance.  I But more work than it would have taken to move from one Power to another.    > F > Apple wanted a wide range of Apple POWERPC chips from laptops to bigH > servers. So a small volume divided into multiple variants of the chip. > C > the game console makers want one specific variant of the chip and 7 > promise high volumes.  Guess which one IBM prefered ?   I I have littl;e doubt that Mach could run on anything that IBM turned out. G Ther is nothing in Power specific to gaming.  It's just the best CPU on J the market today.  Moving to Intel is a step backwards driven by marketingH and not by technical excellence.  But then, if MS has taught us anythingG it is that with the right marketing mediocrity will always win out over  technical superiority.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:52:43 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> @ Subject: Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito+ Message-ID: <43D11554.5C7D1D5@teksavvy.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:F > ANd you think that Intel is going to be willing to make custom chips( > just to keep Apple happy?  Not likely.  G That is the whole point of going to the 8086: no need for custom chips. G The 8086 already provides the full range of chips from handheld to data F centre. And it already has the fancy instructions for video/sounds etc5 that Apple wants and had in its custom PowerPc chips.   L > the market today.  Moving to Intel is a step backwards driven by marketing# > and not by technical excellence.    G When you need laptops and IBM doesn't produce laptop-grade Power chips,  what are you to do ?  H And yes, I am sure there is some marketing involved in Apple's decision.D And there would be some nice dealing as well between Intel trying toG lure apple to the 8086. And Apple seems to have insisted on keeping its  freedom to market as it wants.    M Big question is how easy/quickly Apple will be able to start using AMD chips.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:23:32 +0100 3 From: Michael Unger <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com> @ Subject: Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito, Message-ID: <43cktlF1l1kihU1@individual.net>  & On 2006-01-20 16:36, "JF Mezei" wrote:  H > Don't forget that Apple wasn't using off-the shelf IBM Power chips. ItJ > was getting custom chips made with a few modifications. And Apple wasn'tH > big enough to tickle IBM's interest. Its laptop chips were already oneI > generation behind and done by what used to be Motorola's chip division. H                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^) > (PowerPC was a IBM/Apple/Moto project).   F It's now called "Freescale Semiconductor", <http://www.freescale.com>.   > [...]    Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. 5 My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:31:50 -0500 C From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@icusc.com> % Subject: Island Datastore Tape Drives 8 Message-ID: <S%8Af.1954$SB2.1039@bignews5.bellsouth.net>  K We are pleased to announce our own brand of DataStore Tape Devices, at some   of the lowest prices on the net.  L All Tape devices are new unless otherwise specified with a minimum of 1 year	 warranty. % Typically new products carry 3 Years.   C Alll devices guaranteed 100% compatible with VMS (using the correct  controller of course)    4MM DAT   J IC-DS-DS08-T-N   DDS2 4/8GB     Tabletop  $449 (refurbished)      includes 1M Cable and Terminator L IC-DS-DS24-T-N    DDS3 12/24GB Tabletop   $499 (refurbished)     includes 1M Cable and TerminatorJ IC-DS-DS40-T-W   DDS420/40GB Tabletop   $699 (NEW)             includes 2M Cable and TerminatorK IC-DS-DS72-T-W   DDS-5 36/72GB Tabletop  $799 (NEW)             includes 2M  Cable and Terminator   8MM   ? IC-DS-EX-85-T-N   Exabyte EXB8500  Tabletop                $399 . (refurbished) includes 1M Cable and TerminatorL IC-DS-EX-M8-T-W Exabyte Mammoth EXB8900 Tabletop $699 (refurbished) includes 2M Cable and terminator      DLT and SDLT  G IC-DS-DL80-T-W                           40/80GB DLTIV Tabletop   $1295 
 (Refurbished) G IC-DS-DL22-T-W                           110/220GB SDLT1 Tabletop $1995 
 (Refurbished) L IC-DS-DL32-T-W                           160/320GB SDLT Tabletop $3295 (NEW)     LTO   < IC-DS-LT200-T-W    100/200 LTO Table top               $1975= IC-DS-LT40-T-W      200/400 LTO Table top               $2895 : IC-DS-LT80-T-W      400/800GB LTO Table top          $4295     AIT    Coming soon      Libraries also available) Call for details or email sales@icusc.com   K All products come with Single Cartridge, Cleaning Cartridge, SCSI Cable and 
 Terminator3 Special use cables alsoo available at nominal cost. D All devices are Carbon colored - Beige is available at same pricing.     --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2006 13:26:57 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)- Subject: Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now! , Message-ID: <43c6p1F1mibvcU1@individual.net>  + In article <43D04039.5F3A36BA@comcast.net>, 5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>  . >> In article <43CF040C.7DD3546C@comcast.net>,? >>         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >> > Paul Sture wrote: >> >>  >> >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:4 >> >> > In article <4378onF1lapj6U1@individual.net>,8 >> >> >       Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> writes: >> >> >  >> >> >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >>4 >> >> >>>In article <43CD6C37.F9BA4B27@comcast.net>,B >> >> >>>     David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: >> >> >>P >> >> >>>>Linux took off because folks were already running '386es (at the time,Q >> >> >>>>and later machines), were already subscribed to a BBS or ISP and didn't B >> >> >>>>have to pay to extra acquire the software in most cases.	 >> >> >>> 	 >> >> >>> D >> >> >>>The same is true of FreeBSD, why is Linux a bigger success?	 >> >> >>>  >> >> >>L >> >> >>In my case, FreeBSD didn't have the online press coverage that LinuxK >> >> >>did, but the clincher was that I could pick up a packaged copy with O >> >> >>documentation from a local shop. I only had dial up access at the time.  >> >> >  >> >> > L >> >> > But that is part of marketing.  Putting the product in the consumersM >> >> > hand.  You can't buy VMS or FreeBSD at a local store, but you can buy  >> >> > Linux or Windows.  >> >> >  >> >>  >> >> Exactly. >> >F >> > I've purchased FreeBSD at everything from a bookstore to CompUSA. >>  B >> Did you buy FreeBSD or did you buy a book that just happened to. >> provide a copy on CD inside the back cover? > E > Book-plus at a bookstore, an actual distro. at the computer stores.   F What version?  Must have been a while ago. And even at that I doubt itH actually was put out by FreeBSD.  Much more likely a package like WalnutE Creek.  As I said, searching the web finds no reference to any distro E actually out out by the FreeBSD guys (who really do not seem to be at ( all interested in competing with Linux.)   > J > Mind you, I haven't poked around with it for some good time now. Does itH > still have that goofy SYSINSTALL program that starts from a compressedI > kernel? (Required 16MB last I played with it. Naturally, my DECpc-450ST  > only has 12MB.)   F No idea what your talking about.  I put a CD in, boot, select from theF three levels of install (in my case, always expert), answer a questionG or two and go do something else while it install. Come back in about 10 I minutes (used to be more than an hour, but I haven't got a CD slower than I 52X at this point :-) do final config for things like network and startup F options and away it goes.  Still not as slick as something like RedHatG or Knoppix, but not at all painful.  I am having much more trouble with + Solaris 10 and that's a commercial product!     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2006 15:52:44 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)- Subject: Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now! , Message-ID: <43cfacF1n10gbU1@individual.net>  C In article <1137771441.567292.322310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,  	davidc@montagar.com writes:I >>Think: Citrix. Citrix is an "X-windows" paradigm for MS-Windows in that @ >>the program runs on a "server", but is displayed on a desktop. > G > Yes, I've dealt with a company that used to use Citrix for some HIPAA B > application - now uses web-based applications.  Web browsers areI > getting more capable, what with some of the AJAX functionality becoming  > more widespread. > G >>Windows is unstable enough without adding the complexity of Citrix on H >>top of it, not to mention the bandwidth demands. Let a virus or a wormI >>through the firewall and kiss your enterprise-wide app. (not to mention @ >>the desktop clients) good-bye (speaking from experience here). > @ > Okay - Citrix "X-window"-like functionality is bad - so why is > X-windows better?   M Tool for the job.  These applications aren't web pages they are applications. 2 Why use a web interface for a non-web application?   C >                   Why is opening up port 6000 better than Citrix. A > Remember that in X-windows, the client/server is reversed.  The D > "server" is really the desktop and the X-window application is the. > client and has to connect to your desktop.    D All semantics.  Who cares which end gets called the server and whichB the client.  The application runs on your big-iron and displaye on
 your desktop.   H >                                            At least with Citrix, it isH > an explicit connection from the desktop to the Citrix server (which is' > easier to deal with firewall issues).   F When this discussion started it was about getting desktop applicationsG to the desktop from a VMS server.  Originally, I even said the desktops I would run on a private network so as not to expose Windows to the threats G that exist on the INTERNET.  That means, all of your X traffic is local G and there are no Firewall issues.  And port 6000 on the desktops (the X H server) is not exposed to anything.  Trust me, if you have PC's runnningI X on the INTERNET it is not port 6000 or X that is going to be the target  of any attack!!    > G >>Now, take that same app., and develop it for an X-capable deployment, J >>run it on a multi-user o.s. like VMS and VOILA! Secure, stable operatingJ >>environments with VASTLY improved performance and reliability. The folks. >>at HIPAA will "thank" you, to say the least. > I > Secure?  How secure is it when it's possible for another application to E > screen-scrape your whole X-window session, because you've have port A > 6000 open?  X-window traffic isn't encrypted, either. Web based E > application can be encrypted almost trivially by using https rather  > than http.  E Again, the discussion was about internal use between a VMS system and G the desktop.  If you can't trust your employess then how do you survive F today?  Is that character cell session (IP or DECNET) encrypted?  And,H if you are really that paranoid, run SSH and encrypt all your X traffic.F It still comes down to choosing the most appropriate tool for the job.) Everything int he world is not web based.    bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 07:37:21 -0800 From: davidc@montagar.com - Subject: Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now! C Message-ID: <1137771441.567292.322310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   H >Think: Citrix. Citrix is an "X-windows" paradigm for MS-Windows in that? >the program runs on a "server", but is displayed on a desktop.   E Yes, I've dealt with a company that used to use Citrix for some HIPAA @ application - now uses web-based applications.  Web browsers areG getting more capable, what with some of the AJAX functionality becoming  more widespread.  F >Windows is unstable enough without adding the complexity of Citrix onG >top of it, not to mention the bandwidth demands. Let a virus or a worm H >through the firewall and kiss your enterprise-wide app. (not to mention? >the desktop clients) good-bye (speaking from experience here).   > Okay - Citrix "X-window"-like functionality is bad - so why isB X-windows better?  Why is opening up port 6000 better than Citrix.? Remember that in X-windows, the client/server is reversed.  The B "server" is really the desktop and the X-window application is theG client and has to connect to your desktop.  At least with Citrix, it is F an explicit connection from the desktop to the Citrix server (which is% easier to deal with firewall issues).   F >Now, take that same app., and develop it for an X-capable deployment,I >run it on a multi-user o.s. like VMS and VOILA! Secure, stable operating I >environments with VASTLY improved performance and reliability. The folks - >at HIPAA will "thank" you, to say the least.   G Secure?  How secure is it when it's possible for another application to C screen-scrape your whole X-window session, because you've have port ? 6000 open?  X-window traffic isn't encrypted, either. Web based C application can be encrypted almost trivially by using https rather 
 than http.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 07:48:53 -0800 From: davidc@montagar.com - Subject: Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now! B Message-ID: <1137772133.437929.44400@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  J >Because the apps already exist and it is likely to be easier to port them4 >than to rewrite them for a totally different model.  	 Examples?   G >                                                                   Why % > not client/server?  Web-based apps?   J >Because contrary to what some people keep trying to do, everything is not3 >the web.  The right tool for the job and all that.   E Which is why I posited three examples:  Leave it alone on he desktop,  web-based, and client-server.   G >We already have that. It's called MSOffice.  I thought the idea was to F >move away from that and bring VMS back into the picture.  There is no@ >desktop VMS and it is unlikely that there will be anytime soon.  G I understand, but I'm the Devil's Advocate here.  If the desktop app is G MSOffice, there will be no port to OpenVMS, period.  MS won't allow it. C  If the solution is to replace MSOffice with OpenOffice, OpenOffice F already runs on Windows, Linux, etc desktop, so why the need to run itD remotely and burden the corporate server with every clerical workersG memos (recall that apps like OpenOffice do use a considerable amount of E memory.  Memory which is more expensive on the server compared to the < same memory - which likely already exists - on the desktop)?  2 Honestly, do you see OpenOffice as a "server app"?   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 08:24:04 -0800 From: davidc@montagar.com - Subject: Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now! B Message-ID: <1137774244.539311.28600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    >    X windows is client-server. > H >Once again the utterly vague term 'client-server' shows how useless the	 >term is.  > G >David wants to run the actual application on the client.  x-windows is  >basically a smart terminal.  G Exactly - and many people do not really understand who's the cilent and G who's the server with X-Windows!  X-windows is a really thin-client.  A B glorified terminal emulator with graphics.  The web-based apps areG "client/server', too, but with Javascript/Java/Flash, the client can be  more substantial.   C Given the amount of memory and computes the average desktop has, it ? makes sense to keep as much burden on the desktop as reasonable C ("reasonable" is of course subjective and dependent upon the actual E task at hand).  This frees your server for managing the core business C logic and database management.  The benefit is maximizing your full 4 hardware/software investment from desktop to server.  ? A good desktop app, ilnked with a stable OpenVMS server running G middleware/database is a very nice solution.  Why does that app need to E be running on OpenVMS, ported/use X-windows, consuming the memory and ? CPU on the server, when you have excess usable capacity on your  desktop?   I see this Catch-22 here:   " 1) We want OpenVMS on the desktop.A 2) OpenVMS Desktop apps are needed to get OpenVMS on the desktop. D 3) Port the Desktop apps to X-windows, so we can put them on OpenVMS servers.B 4) Once the desktop apps are on OpenVMS server, we can put them on desktop OpenVMS.5 5) OpenVMS does not have an advantage on the desktop. , 6) Then why port the desktop app to OpenVMS?
 7) Goto #1   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:48:11 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> - Subject: Re: Itanium lap tops are needed now! , Message-ID: <43D11444.42A5FAF2@teksavvy.com>   davidc@montagar.com wrote:I > Exactly - and many people do not really understand who's the cilent and I > who's the server with X-Windows!  X-windows is a really thin-client.  A D > glorified terminal emulator with graphics.  The web-based apps areI > "client/server', too, but with Javascript/Java/Flash, the client can be  > more substantial.    There is one HUGE difference.   G With X, you have an authenticated session running under a username with H an image running on the client (the big central host) displaying using a4 permanent connection to the server (the X terminal).  B With HTTP, you have ephemeral connections and when someone pressesD "submit", you need to re-establish context and that transaction runsF under the generic username used by the web server. (and often, the webC server acts only as an intermediatry between the web client and the - application that runs behind the web server).     G In an HTTP environment, it is much harder to maintain full context of a B user's application because this context needs to be re-establishedG constantly, and you have no idea when the user has quit his application B and you should purge that user's application context. So, for HTTP@ transactions, you need to re-invent the wheel and create virtual? applicationc ontextx that remember a user's "position" and will B automatically time out if the user hasn't submitted something in XE minutes. Tough luck if teh user was distracted by a phone call, he'll + have to re-enter all his data from scratch.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:44:10 -0800 , From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com># Subject: Re: LK463 (and Windows XP) + Message-ID: <dqr40q$1nd$1@news01.intel.com>    Forrest Kenney wrote: @ > 	Attached is the HID keyboard page definitions.  ID's with "*"H > are used by LK463.  The HID table is complete but I could have missed  > a mapping for the LK463. >  > 	 > Forrest  > , > Usage ID      Usage ID          Usage Name > (Dec) (*)      (Hex)@ > 0 *              00              Reserved (no event indicated)4 > 1 *              02              Keyboard POSTFail: > 3 *              03              Keyboard ErrorUndefined3 > 4 *              04              Keyboard a and A  [snip]A > 116 *            74              Keyboard Execute  (DO key VMS) 0 > 117 *            75              Keyboard Help [snip]5 > 225 *            E1              Keyboard LeftShift 3 > 226 *            E2              Keyboard LeftAlt D > 227 *            E3              Keyboard Left GUI (L Compose VMS)7 > 228             E4              Keyboard RightControl 6 > 229 *            E5              Keyboard RightShift5 > 230 *            E6              Keyboard RightAlt  E > 231 *            E7              Keyboard Right GUI (R Compose VMS)   ?      Just to complete this discussion, I did dome more thorough  testing.   Vital statistics:   	IBM Thinkpad T41 laptop< 	Windows XP Professional SP2 (with a whole bunch of security' 				     patches that our coprporate IT  				     manages :-) 	Hummingbird Exceed 9.0.0.0 ) 	Attachmate KEA! 340 V 5.10j (Build 3470) 	 	LK463-A2   E      Under normal day-to-day work, the laptop is used in an IBM "port E replicator" which allows use of an external monitor (HP 1955 LCD flat E panel, HP 3-button USB mouse 3X-PBQWS-WB, and the LK463-A2 keyboard), D with mouse attached to a USB port and the keyboard attached with the> supplied USB-to-PS/2 adapter to the PS/2 keyboard input on theD replicator.  In this configuration, all LK463 keys are available andA I've successfully mapped them within Exceed and KEA! 340 to their  "correct" LK4xx functions.  D      I have now done testing with the LK463 attached directly to oneD of the USB ports.  I've found application-specific deficiencies, but/ also more general Windows problematic behavior.   >      1) Under Exceed, using the keyboard mapping configuration@         utility (Xkeys), Exceed doesn't "see" the following keys%         and therefore can't map them:   0 		Help, Do, PF1, PF2, PF3, PF4, or keypad-comma.  D      2) Under KEA! 340, the keyboard mapping tool fails to "see" the4         following keys and therefore can't map them:  
 		Help and Do   E      3) Under both applications, I can map the left and right Compose G         keys, BUT when pressed, Windows intercepts them as the "Windows *         Key" and opens the Start menu! :-(  E      My theory is that most or all of the keys (HIDs?) are being sent C correctly to Windows, but (a) Windows is intercepting and acting on D "Keyboard Left GUI" and "Keyboard Right GUI", which VMS wants to useB as Compose; (b) Windows is intercepting and "dumping on the floor"D the "Keyboard Help" and "Keyboard Execute" keys.  I don't understandC why it would do that, and indeed it's possible that a newer version C of Exceed and/or KEA! might be able to tell Windows "don't do that" A and grab these keys (as they have been able to do for a long time ) with, e.g., NumLock, Pause and PrintScr).   @      On a personal note, since I'm in US-EN mode and very rarely@ have need for the Compose function/key, and since one can always> get to Help from the EVE command line, I could *almost* manage> with the above noted limitations.  However, lack of the Do key' is pretty much a show-stopper!  Sigh...   B      William Webb gave a link to website that deals with keyboardsA and one of the links off that site pointed to a free utility that ? uses a Windows registry hack to remap keys.  It has a number of A limitations, i.e., mostly swapping the location of a pair of keys A rather than changing what Windows does with a given key.  It does A include a utility to find out whether a key (that Windows doesn't A know about) has been pressed.  I'm just very timid about dropping / a .EXE from the net onto my corporate laptop...   E      So as far as Eric Dittman's original request goes, it sure looks B like the USB functions of this keyboard are there.  The trick willB be how to access and remap those HIDs to make this keyboard usable> on the Mac (and one assumes, on VMS through a DECterm/Xterm or telnet session).  
 	Regards, Ken  --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:12:33 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>@ Subject: Solaris now available for HP Opteron blades but not VMS? Message-ID: <lI2Af.160461$D47.128508@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   ) http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=29130  " 3 HP Opteron blades, Proliant supports Sun Solaris 10    My how times change   0 By INQUIRER staff: Friday 20 January 2006, 07:40F ALL HP BLADES now support Sun Solaris 10 in 32/64 bit but that's only  the beginning.  I HP's Opteron DL145-G2 is now certified for Solaris 10 32/64 bit too, and  + sources suggest there's a lot more to come.   B We'd say that OpenVMS for Opteron is a bridge too far for Hewlett H Packard, but additional support for Sun Solaris 10 suggests a degree of G cooperation that would have been totally unconceivable two years ago.   "    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:06:52 +0100 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>D Subject: Re: Swiss German keyboard on PWS600au console and CDE login, Message-ID: <43br1sF1mphqqU1@individual.net>   Martin Vorlaender wrote:+ > Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> wrote:  > K >>OK; I used to know how to do this, but it's late at night and driving me   >>nuts.  >>D >>OK, I know how to set a keyboard language within CDE, but there's 9 >>another setting which does it for the CDE login screen.  >  > F > Set up a SYS$MANAGER:DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_SETUP.COM (copy it from the0 > .TEMPLATE) with a Swiss German keyboard entry. >     1 Thanks. No success so far, so I'll keep at it :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:17:00 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: TCPIP SMTP: fails a relay test , Message-ID: <43D10CF7.AB3CFC94@teksavvy.com>   TCPIP 5.3-182-4     telnet relay-test.mail-abuse.org  $ (bunch of tests that are OK omitted)  * >        Connecting to 206.248.136.122 ...Q > <<< 220 bike.vaxination.ca V5.3-18E, OpenVMS V7.2 VAX ready at Fri, 20 Jan 2006   > >>> HELO cygnus.mail-abuse.orgM > <<< 250 bike.vaxination.ca Hello Cygnus.Mail-Abuse.ORG, pleased to meet you  > :Relay test: #Test 15 - > >>> mail from: <spamtest@[206.248.136.122]> 3 > <<< 250 <spamtest@[206.248.136.122]>... Sender OK 8 > >>> rcpt to: <@gw.vaxination.ca:nobody@mail-abuse.org>F > <<< 250 < <@gw.vaxination.ca:nobody@mail-abuse.org>>... Recipient OK
 > >>> QUITA > <<< 221 bike.vaxination.ca Service closing transmission channel P > Tested host banner: 220 bike.vaxination.ca V5.3-18E, OpenVMS V7.2 VAX ready at, > System appeared to accept 1 relay attempts    @ I am not sure how VMS would try to deliver an email addressed toC @gw.vaxination.ca:nobody@mail-abuse.org. (My mail clients including F VMSmail seem to detect a syntax error and won't let me send to that, I( would have to write a script to try it).   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 11:16:45 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org+ Subject: Re: TCPIP SMTP: fails a relay test 3 Message-ID: <8z1u$WlmCfNW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <43D10CF7.AB3CFC94@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > TCPIP 5.3-182-4  > " > telnet relay-test.mail-abuse.org > & > (bunch of tests that are OK omitted) > + >>        Connecting to 206.248.136.122 ... R >> <<< 220 bike.vaxination.ca V5.3-18E, OpenVMS V7.2 VAX ready at Fri, 20 Jan 2006! >> >>> HELO cygnus.mail-abuse.org N >> <<< 250 bike.vaxination.ca Hello Cygnus.Mail-Abuse.ORG, pleased to meet you >> :Relay test: #Test 15. >> >>> mail from: <spamtest@[206.248.136.122]>4 >> <<< 250 <spamtest@[206.248.136.122]>... Sender OK9 >> >>> rcpt to: <@gw.vaxination.ca:nobody@mail-abuse.org> G >> <<< 250 < <@gw.vaxination.ca:nobody@mail-abuse.org>>... Recipient OK  >> >>> QUIT B >> <<< 221 bike.vaxination.ca Service closing transmission channelQ >> Tested host banner: 220 bike.vaxination.ca V5.3-18E, OpenVMS V7.2 VAX ready at - >> System appeared to accept 1 relay attempts  >  > B > I am not sure how VMS would try to deliver an email addressed toE > @gw.vaxination.ca:nobody@mail-abuse.org. (My mail clients including H > VMSmail seem to detect a syntax error and won't let me send to that, I* > would have to write a script to try it).  A Mail clients deal with RFC 822 address syntax.  SMTP servers deal ? with RFC 821 address syntax.  The two syntaxes are dramatically 
 different.  A @gw.vaxination.ca:nobody@mail-abuse.org is a valid RFC 821 syntax D which essentially says, "contact the mail server at gw.vaxination.ca@ and try to deliver a message addressed to nobody@mail-abuse.org"   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:09:29 +0100 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>5 Subject: What ECOs for Alpha VMS7-2 since a year ago? , Message-ID: <43ccpaF1n8cfvU1@individual.net>  H After a delay of more than a year, I have rescued my Alpha from storage ' and need to get up to date on the ECOs.   H So far I have applied VMS732_UPDATE_V0500, and need to look at the list : to check what I may have missed, but what others to apply?  B (And yes I got that wierd COPY/BLOCKSIZE error that Philip Helbig  reported last NOV)   TCP/IP V5.4  Apache/CSWS  Mozilla (??) Perl/MySQL/GNV etc C/C++/other compilers    Any other suggestions?  C Of course, should someone wish to donate a copy of 8.2, it will be   gladly received :-)    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 17:18:53 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)9 Subject: Re: What ECOs for Alpha VMS7-2 since a year ago? , Message-ID: <43d11b7d$1@news.langstoeger.at>  W In article <43ccpaF1n8cfvU1@individual.net>, Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> writes: I >After a delay of more than a year, I have rescued my Alpha from storage  ( >and need to get up to date on the ECOs.  4 	ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-2/Q ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-2/ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt   I >So far I have applied VMS732_UPDATE_V0500, and need to look at the list  ; >to check what I may have missed, but what others to apply?   L Not many, some of them only level 3 (I do install all of them on my testsys)   	VMS732_UAF	V1.0 	VMS732_DDTM	V1.0  	VMS732_RTPAD	V1.0 	VMS732_MANAGE	V5.0  	VMS732_DCL	V4.0 	VMS732_ACRTL	V2.0 	VMS732_XFC	V2.0 	VMS732_LAT	V1.0  C >(And yes I got that wierd COPY/BLOCKSIZE error that Philip Helbig   >reported last NOV)   E Of course (You could have installed VMS732_COPY before VMS732_UPDATE)    >TCP/IP V5.4   	ECO 5   >Apache/CSWS   	CSWS		V2.1   
 >Mozilla (??)   ) 	CSWB V1.7-11		No more MOZILLA, only CSWB    >Perl/MySQL/GNV etc   
 	Perl		V5.8-6  	CSWS_PERL	V2.1  	GNV		V1.6-2   	MySQL		V4.1.14    >C/C++/other compilers   	V7.1   4 What compiler ?	Do you know http://www1.aclabs.com ?   >Any other suggestions?    	CSWS_JAVA	V3.0 (Tomcat 5.5.9) 	CSWS_PHP	V1.3 	JAVA		V1.4-2P5   
 	ZLIB		V1.2.3   D >Of course, should someone wish to donate a copy of 8.2, it will be  >gladly received :-)   No problem.    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 01:37:13 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> / Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! 0 Message-ID: <11t11939oct7529@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Alan Greig wrote:  > @ >>credit is deserved), I don't believe they would do anything to? >>encourage an Itanium laptop. That''s firmly X86-64 territory.  >  > J > And with Intel having had to admit a significant drop in marketshare forH > the all too important 8086 market, it is a fair bet that they will notG > want to shift any 8086 business to that IA64 thing, and if at all, it   > would be the other way around.  = Actually, the itanic is one area where AMD cannot hurt Intel.   F Intel with EV8 blowing opteron out of the water, and consigning it to , the low end only, would be better for Intel.  F Still, latest profits, AMD 96 milliion or somewhere near there, Intel  over 2 billion.   E IA32 has leveraged Intel into many other areas where they are making  G money.  That won't change very quickly.  In some areas they are having  C trouble meeting demand.  That means price support which means good  H profits.  AMD is still a one-trick pony.  The most important trick, but  still the only trick.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 01:38:14 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> / Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! 0 Message-ID: <11t11ark1vr4559@corp.supernews.com>   Alan Greig wrote:  > JF Mezei wrote:  >  >>Alan Greig wrote:  >>A >>>credit is deserved), I don't believe they would do anything to @ >>>encourage an Itanium laptop. That''s firmly X86-64 territory. >>J >>And with Intel having had to admit a significant drop in marketshare forH >>the all too important 8086 market, it is a fair bet that they will notG >>want to shift any 8086 business to that IA64 thing, and if at all, it   >>would be the other way around. >  > I > I know fortunes can change quickly but with Intel shares plummeting and B > AMD skyrocketing over the last two days, based on fourth quarter@ > reports, Intel just cannot do anything but divert all its best > resources to X86-64. >   " Gee!  Who said that 4-5 years ago?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 01:46:49 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> / Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! 0 Message-ID: <11t11r3n3jok30c@corp.supernews.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > d b turner wrote:  >  >>Hang on a second...  >>" >>Software resources international >>Are you reading this?  >>E >>Who needs a native version of VMS on an Itanium when you could have  >>Charon-XXX running >>- >>Messieurs en Suisse - are you reading this?  >  > I > Preferably, "OS-CHARON" that runs the emulation without the complexity, + > vulnerability, etc. of an underlying o.s.  >  > B >>A cheapy stripped down version for a couple of $00 WOULD BE NICE >  >  > AMEN!  >    Not so fast.  G The windows API sits on top of the underlying OS.  That OS has lots of  H DEC heritage, and more than one OS type of person has commented that NT  isn't a bad implimentation.   I So, NT with much of the cruft turned off, deleted where possible, just a  F core providing the basic services all the VAX emulators need.  A dual 6 core Opteron or Athlon-64, and there you have VAX/VMS.  F Ok, cannot run Alpha/VMS and much of the new stuff wouldn't be there. I Doesn't mean an Alpha emulator couldn't be done.  Have to see the market  4 demand first.  Or maybe it's already in development.  G Note that you'd have none of the windows applications.  Notebook users  H might not like that.  Whatever you couldn't provide under VMS that they D want you'll need to find another option.  Maybe not all the windows  stuff deleted.  D Me, I'm not a user, I'm a developer, and I don't have any idea what  users want and need.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2006 12:06:39 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/ Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! , Message-ID: <43c22fF1mnl50U1@individual.net>  0 In article <11t11r3n3jok30c@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > David J Dachtera wrote:  >> d b turner wrote: >>   >>>Hang on a second... >>> # >>>Software resources international  >>>Are you reading this? >>> F >>>Who needs a native version of VMS on an Itanium when you could have >>>Charon-XXX running  >>> . >>>Messieurs en Suisse - are you reading this? >>   >>  J >> Preferably, "OS-CHARON" that runs the emulation without the complexity,, >> vulnerability, etc. of an underlying o.s. >>   >>  C >>>A cheapy stripped down version for a couple of $00 WOULD BE NICE  >>   >>   >> AMEN! >>   >  > Not so fast. > I > The windows API sits on top of the underlying OS.  That OS has lots of  J > DEC heritage, and more than one OS type of person has commented that NT  > isn't a bad implimentation.   B Based on what?  The myth that Cutler wrote it single-handed over a0 weekend and only had to sharpen his pencil once?   > K > So, NT with much of the cruft turned off, deleted where possible, just a  H > core providing the basic services all the VAX emulators need.  A dual 8 > core Opteron or Athlon-64, and there you have VAX/VMS.  B Sounds like the comments of someone who didn't have to maintain NT	 machines.   H > Ok, cannot run Alpha/VMS and much of the new stuff wouldn't be there. K > Doesn't mean an Alpha emulator couldn't be done.  Have to see the market  6 > demand first.  Or maybe it's already in development. > I > Note that you'd have none of the windows applications.  Notebook users  J > might not like that.  Whatever you couldn't provide under VMS that they F > want you'll need to find another option.  Maybe not all the windows  > stuff deleted.  E And that would mean no windowing applications under VMS either if you   don't include the Windows layer.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2006 12:07:52 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/ Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! , Message-ID: <43c24nF1mnl50U2@individual.net>  0 In article <11t11ark1vr4559@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Alan Greig wrote:  >> JF Mezei wrote: >>   >>>Alan Greig wrote: >>> B >>>>credit is deserved), I don't believe they would do anything toA >>>>encourage an Itanium laptop. That''s firmly X86-64 territory.  >>> K >>>And with Intel having had to admit a significant drop in marketshare for I >>>the all too important 8086 market, it is a fair bet that they will not H >>>want to shift any 8086 business to that IA64 thing, and if at all, it! >>>would be the other way around.  >>   >>  J >> I know fortunes can change quickly but with Intel shares plummeting andC >> AMD skyrocketing over the last two days, based on fourth quarter A >> reports, Intel just cannot do anything but divert all its best  >> resources to X86-64.  >>   > $ > Gee!  Who said that 4-5 years ago? >   J Pretty much everyone except the Itanium apologists (you know who you are!)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2006 12:09:48 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/ Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! , Message-ID: <43c28cF1mnl50U3@individual.net>  0 In article <11t11939oct7529@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > JF Mezei wrote:  >> Alan Greig wrote: >>  A >>>credit is deserved), I don't believe they would do anything to @ >>>encourage an Itanium laptop. That''s firmly X86-64 territory. >>   >>  K >> And with Intel having had to admit a significant drop in marketshare for I >> the all too important 8086 market, it is a fair bet that they will not H >> want to shift any 8086 business to that IA64 thing, and if at all, it! >> would be the other way around.  > ? > Actually, the itanic is one area where AMD cannot hurt Intel.  > H > Intel with EV8 blowing opteron out of the water, and consigning it to . > the low end only, would be better for Intel. > H > Still, latest profits, AMD 96 milliion or somewhere near there, Intel  > over 2 billion.  > G > IA32 has leveraged Intel into many other areas where they are making  I > money.  That won't change very quickly.  In some areas they are having  E > trouble meeting demand.  That means price support which means good  J > profits.  AMD is still a one-trick pony.  The most important trick, but  > still the only trick.   H Maybe so, but Intel wanted to be a one-trick pony too.  They just backed the wrong horse.   bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:22:55 +0100 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>/ Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! , Message-ID: <43c6hgF1mmkl1U1@individual.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:2 > In article <11t11r3n3jok30c@corp.supernews.com>,, > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >    >>I >>The windows API sits on top of the underlying OS.  That OS has lots of  J >>DEC heritage, and more than one OS type of person has commented that NT  >>isn't a bad implimentation.  >  > D > Based on what?  The myth that Cutler wrote it single-handed over a2 > weekend and only had to sharpen his pencil once?  F True that NT shows a good deal of VMS heritage, but I believe someone I here pointed out that the NT APIs rely on null terminated strings rather  ' than descriptors or a length parameter.      > K >>So, NT with much of the cruft turned off, deleted where possible, just a  H >>core providing the basic services all the VAX emulators need.  A dual 8 >>core Opteron or Athlon-64, and there you have VAX/VMS. >  > D > Sounds like the comments of someone who didn't have to maintain NT > machines.  >  > H >>Ok, cannot run Alpha/VMS and much of the new stuff wouldn't be there. K >>Doesn't mean an Alpha emulator couldn't be done.  Have to see the market  6 >>demand first.  Or maybe it's already in development. >>I >>Note that you'd have none of the windows applications.  Notebook users  J >>might not like that.  Whatever you couldn't provide under VMS that they F >>want you'll need to find another option.  Maybe not all the windows  >>stuff deleted. >  > G > And that would mean no windowing applications under VMS either if you " > don't include the Windows layer. > B Wine? I've no idea of where that is at the moment, but someone is  developing an OS X version.    http://darwine.opendarwin.org/   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 07:36:13 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! 3 Message-ID: <0BDqJCUJe7F$@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <deWzf.288$SC1.130@bignews3.bellsouth.net>, "d b turner" <dbturner@islandco.com> writes:  > F > Who needs a native version of VMS on an Itanium when you could have  > Charon-XXX running  G    Did mozilla ever run on a VAX?  (If it did, I never installed it.)   K    The browsers that would run on Charon-VAX would be quite limited and not C    likely to support the stuff that the VP mentioned earlier needs.   G    Of course if he wasn't using Java, Javascript, ActiveX, ... maybe he     wouldn't have a virus.    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 07:38:56 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! 3 Message-ID: <xcIk7zBFd+m7@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <11t11r3n3jok30c@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > K > So, NT with much of the cruft turned off, deleted where possible, just a  ? > core providing the basic services all the VAX emulators need.   G    NT with the cruft turned off is just Dave's I/O subsystem (does not  C    include a file system).  Not enough to run any windowing system.    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2006 05:43:19 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com / Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! C Message-ID: <1137764599.394807.183440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   F it is still not too late to bring back alpha ... and alpha already ran? windoze before it was pulled from the market at the last minute @ and has 32 bit software emulator so it would be a winner without' having to spend alot in development ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:09:17 -0500 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>/ Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! / Message-ID: <43D0B6CD.23600.23FD9A3B@localhost>   0 On 19 Jan 2006 at 19:54, David J Dachtera wrote:= > Preferably, "OS-CHARON" that runs the emulation without the 7 > complexity, vulnerability, etc. of an underlying o.s.   D There would be some sort of OS.  No need to create one -- there are  plenty of good ones already.  E For example, the NuVAX product runs under QNX, which is a real-time,   deterministic operating system:   0   http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html#NuVAX1000  = [Yes, it's a Shameless Plug (tm) from a CHARON-VAX reseller.]   D > > A cheapy stripped down version for a couple of $00 WOULD BE NICE > AMEN!    Already exists:   B   http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/Tools_and_tips.htm#freeware  A You have to run Linux on the Intel box, but since you don't like  + Windows, that's not a problem, is it?   :-)   
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------8 Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com) "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:06:32 -0000 * From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>/ Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! 2 Message-ID: <dqqu9o$6v0$1@blackmamba.itd.rl.ac.uk>  6 "Paul Sture" <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> wrote in message & news:43c6hgF1mmkl1U1@individual.net...  Y > True that NT shows a good deal of VMS heritage, but I believe someone here pointed out  W > that the NT APIs rely on null terminated strings rather than descriptors or a length   > parameter.  H Not entirely correctly, though. The kernel APIs use counted strings, the Windows ones don't.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:33:03 -0500 C From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <dbturner@icusc.com> / Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! 7 Message-ID: <O88Af.1948$SB2.789@bignews5.bellsouth.net>    Stan  K How much are we talking about for a basic laptop version for either WINDOZE 	 or Linux?    DT   --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html   = "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com> wrote in message ) news:43D0B6CD.23600.23FD9A3B@localhost... 2 > On 19 Jan 2006 at 19:54, David J Dachtera wrote:? > > Preferably, "OS-CHARON" that runs the emulation without the 9 > > complexity, vulnerability, etc. of an underlying o.s.  > E > There would be some sort of OS.  No need to create one -- there are  > plenty of good ones already. > F > For example, the NuVAX product runs under QNX, which is a real-time,! > deterministic operating system:  > 2 >   http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html#NuVAX1000 > ? > [Yes, it's a Shameless Plug (tm) from a CHARON-VAX reseller.]  > F > > > A cheapy stripped down version for a couple of $00 WOULD BE NICE	 > > AMEN!  >  > Already exists:  > D >   http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/Tools_and_tips.htm#freeware > B > You have to run Linux on the Intel box, but since you don't like- > Windows, that's not a problem, is it?   :-)  >  > --Stan Quayle  > Quayle Consulting Inc. >  > ----------: > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX5 > 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 2 > stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com+ > "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:45:07 +0000 (UTC) < From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)% Subject: Re: [OT] For Mac fans... :-) ) Message-ID: <dqqevj$dvk$1@news.BelWue.DE>   \ In article <43D05385.FA089ED7@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >Paul Sture wrote:/ >> Google normally thinks I am in Switzerland.   > B >Interesting that they would block a german IP but not Australian, >Canadian or Swiss.  > I >It used to be that the internet was truly a global network. But when you H >start to deny service to certain IP groups, it breaks the global nature >of the internet.   N Strange enough now I could see the video. My first attempt was from a computerL with a provider independent IP address (that belongs to us). The successfullJ attempt was from a Mac with an IP address from a large German provider. ItJ looks as if Google "forgot" about our small class-C net and placed it into  nowhere, nirwana or whatever ;-)   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann    --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html  --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:13:30 +0100 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>T Subject: [OT] Google searching by country - Was: Re: [OT] For Mac fans... :-) :-):-), Message-ID: <43c5vrF1mqkljU1@individual.net>   Christoph Gartmann wrote: ^ > In article <43D05385.FA089ED7@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >  >>Paul Sture wrote:  >>/ >>>Google normally thinks I am in Switzerland.   >>C >>Interesting that they would block a german IP but not Australian,  >>Canadian or Swiss. >>J >>It used to be that the internet was truly a global network. But when youI >>start to deny service to certain IP groups, it breaks the global nature  >>of the internet. >  > P > Strange enough now I could see the video. My first attempt was from a computerN > with a provider independent IP address (that belongs to us). The successfullL > attempt was from a Mac with an IP address from a large German provider. ItL > looks as if Google "forgot" about our small class-C net and placed it into" > nowhere, nirwana or whatever ;-) >   G Could it be that "nowhere" or "Nirvana" are countries where Google has   limited bandwidth?  F Since we are on Google behaviour, (readers of comp.sys.mac.system may  have seen this post already):   	  From me: 
 6-Nov-2005  F  > Most sites above are in French because I can't seem to find many USD  > equivalents. Maybe Google is going out of its way to help me find  > French sites...  < I've noticed similar Google behaviour here as well. PluggingH www.google.com into Safari redirects me to www.google.ch, with German asA a default, and subsequent searches reflect that. This can be very E frustrating if you are trying to quote something in English. However,  there is a way around this.   F Using the search field within Safari (at top RHS) will use google.com,E as it appears that Google will not redirect to your local site if you  also include the search term.   ? To see the differences, try a search for the same thing on, say / www.google.fr, www.google.ch, www.google.co.uk.   @ Also, the language used in the search request produces different' results. Try these to demonstrate that:     I http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&q=camembert&btnG=Recherche+Google&meta= I http://www.google.en/search?hl=en&q=camembert&btnG=Recherche+Google&meta= I http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=camembert&btnG=Recherche+Google&meta=    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.040 ************************