0 INFO-VAX	Sat, 21 Jan 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 42      Contents:( Re: Email Tadpole for itanium notebooks!H Re: How about VMS:  "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification"H RE: How about VMS:  "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification"H Re: How about VMS:  "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification"G RE: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification" G Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification" G Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification" G Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification" G Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification" G Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification" G Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification" G Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification"  Re: LK463 (and Windows XP)( Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator( Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:06:58 +0100 6 From: Martin Heller <martin.heller@isit.fraunhofer.de>1 Subject: Re: Email Tadpole for itanium notebooks! $ Message-ID: <43d231f3$1@news.fhg.de>   David Kanter wrote: I >>Hmm, IBM's benchmark figures show their own 32-way SMP X86-64 beating a J >>32-way HP Itanium Superdome. And there's no magic reason you can't scaleG >>beyond that. The IBM system also has all of the big iron features you 
 >>might want.  >  > H > HP superdomes scale upto 128 sockets, I doubt IBM (or anyone with x86)F > can best those scores.  Also, xSeries systems max out at 32 sockets.G > Lastly, Madison 9M is exceedingly long in the tooth (or perhaps, long I > in the dentures); it will be replaced by Montecito relatively soon, and 4 > HP will have newer higher performance super domes. > G > Part of understanding benchmarks is realizing how much depends on the I > product lifecycle.  x86 systems use dual cores right now, IPF does not. I >  Soon that will change, and things will be different.  In the long run, ; > I suspect IPF systems will scale further than x86 ones...  > G > Also, note that there are almost no SAP 2D submissions for IPF...none  > from Fujitsu's new system. >  > DK >    Well, @ There's one one vendor who will happily ship you a single systemE MPP configuration which scales from 200 up to 30000 (no mistake here) = AMD Opteron processors, thanks to the HyperTransport links on E the processors and a special communication egine chip called SeaStar. " The system is called Cray XT3 ....     BR,  Martin   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:45:51 +0100 ( From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch>Q Subject: Re: How about VMS:  "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification" , Message-ID: <43ee6hF1muspeU1@individual.net>   Stanley F. Quayle wrote:F > Gosh, if Windows XP gets the highest level of CC certification, VMS  > should be able to! > 7 >   http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1901965,00.asp  >  > HP, you listening??  >   D Noted, though the readers' comments there were hardly complimentary.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:05:54 -0500 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> Q Subject: RE: How about VMS:  "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification" R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB7D33E0@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----4 > From: Paul Sture [mailto:paul.sture@bluewin.ch]=20  > Sent: January 21, 2006 3:46 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com = > Subject: Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent=20  > Security Certification"  >=20 > Stanley F. Quayle wrote:J > > Gosh, if Windows XP gets the highest level of CC certification, VMS=20 > > should be able to! > >=209 > >   http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1901965,00.asp  > >=20 > > HP, you listening??  > >=20 >=20F > Noted, though the readers' comments there were hardly complimentary. >=20  , So why are there *monthly* security patches?   Extract from article: H "Critics of Common Criteria certification say the ratings are not a true? reflection of the secure nature of a product in general purpose H situations because it does not take every general-purpose situation into	 account."   G Keep in mind that this criteria is extremely expensive and takes a long G time to get certified (lots of red tape). As I recall, these cert's are D also done in standalone environments i.e. not connected to a network (but might be wrong on this).   G Imho, while there is no such thing as a 100% secure system, a platforms  track record speaks for itself.    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jan 2006 15:41:44 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)Q Subject: Re: How about VMS:  "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification" , Message-ID: <43f31oF1mgom6U1@individual.net>  3 In article <ijqjZEyApUtI@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:e > In article <43D16C20.6892.26C1C9C3@localhost>, "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com> writes: G >> Gosh, if Windows XP gets the highest level of CC certification, VMS   > G > Actually it says "the highest level granted to a commercial product", B > which is quite different that either "the highest level" or "the? > highest level that could be granted to a commercial product".  > : > What are the current B1-equivalent commercial products ? >  >> should be able to!  >>  8 >>   http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1901965,00.asp >>   >> HP, you listening?? > G > Of course they are.  Every time I hear Leo Demer gives a talk he asks H > the crowd "to whom of you is Common Criteria certification important".A > Every time I have been there the response has been a resounding 
 > silence. > 7 > HP has been listening.  Customers are not interested.   C Which kind of shoots down this notion I kept hearing here about DOD  still being a big VMS customer.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:40:40 -0500 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>P Subject: RE: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification". Message-ID: <43D20FA8.9419.29408117@localhost>  * On 21 Jan 2006 at 8:05, Main, Kerry wrote:I > Imho, while there is no such thing as a 100% secure system, a platforms " > track record speaks for itself.   E Track record doesn't seem to be buying us much.  Expensive as it is,  @ being fully "certification compliant" can increase revenue.  If * Microsoft did it, it must make them money.
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------8 Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com) "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jan 2006 15:43:14 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)P Subject: Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification", Message-ID: <43f34iF1mgom6U2@individual.net>  C In article <1137820699.070969.242910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,  	davidc@montagar.com writes:G > If Windows can pass that certification - yet require at least monthly 2 > security updates - does it really mean anything? > 2 > OpenVMS survived DEFCON9.  That means something.  F You guys need to give this a break.  It's really meaningless.  I couldE have set up a Prime 850 running Primos and it would have been just as - unhackable.  And for exactly the same reason.    bill      --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:45:35 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> P Subject: Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification"( Message-ID: <ops3ql59apzgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On 21 Jan 2006 15:43:14 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  H > You guys need to give this a break.  It's really meaningless.  I couldG > have set up a Prime 850 running Primos and it would have been just as / > unhackable.  And for exactly the same reason.   H Well Primos adopted the Multics security model to a large measure, so it3 was designed from the ground with security in mind.    ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jan 2006 17:21:01 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)P Subject: Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification", Message-ID: <43f8rtF1nahuvU2@individual.net>  ( In article <ops3ql59apzgicya@hyrrokkin>,& 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:H > On 21 Jan 2006 15:43:14 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: > I >> You guys need to give this a break.  It's really meaningless.  I could H >> have set up a Prime 850 running Primos and it would have been just as0 >> unhackable.  And for exactly the same reason. > J > Well Primos adopted the Multics security model to a large measure, so it5 > was designed from the ground with security in mind.   H Did you ever work with Primos?  The only thing that gave it any securityF at all was the strange way they decided to do some things and the factF that no one knew anything about it.  It was designed with obscurity inG mind (why else would they even change the ASCII character set!!)  Trust  me, I've seen the source!!   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:46:21 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> P Subject: Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification"( Message-ID: <ops3qozjy0zgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On 21 Jan 2006 17:21:01 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  J > Did you ever work with Primos?  The only thing that gave it any securityH > at all was the strange way they decided to do some things and the factH > that no one knew anything about it.  It was designed with obscurity inI > mind (why else would they even change the ASCII character set!!)  Trust  > me, I've seen the source!!  K Yes, I did Fortran, PL/I, C and Pascal and they did Cobol and rpg for the    commonJ backend similar, but better and earlier than VCG.  I had sources as well   startingJ with Version 15 something up through 19 or so.  I remember once for some   reasonK I no longer recall had to look at/modify the tape driver, it was written in H Fortran!  Later they modified PL/I and called it PLP and that became theI systems language of choice.  They started out with a very talented crew    many of I whom, including Poduska came out of the Multics environment.  Since the    machine L was microcoded it could be run either as an accumulator machine, V-mode or   as aF general register machine, I-mode, which was imposed on Prime by some  	 govenment L contract, accordingly we had two distinct code generators for the compiler   family. E The compiler was largely done by Bob Freiburghouse and I assumed it   
 relativelyD late when Itook over Translation Systems from him after he started   Stratus.  ThisF was about the same time that Digital licensed PL/I and Cutler et.al.   ported it fromI a Multics host to VMS 1.0  PL/I was the primus motor for Prime securing    Ford as one H of their largest customers, and ironically it was PL/I on the VAX that  	 took that L business away.  Ford today remains a big VMS PL/I user, at least they were   a couple
 of years ago.    ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jan 2006 18:36:10 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)P Subject: Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification", Message-ID: <43fd8qF1nun7bU1@individual.net>  ( In article <ops3qozjy0zgicya@hyrrokkin>,& 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:H > On 21 Jan 2006 17:21:01 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: > K >> Did you ever work with Primos?  The only thing that gave it any security I >> at all was the strange way they decided to do some things and the fact I >> that no one knew anything about it.  It was designed with obscurity in J >> mind (why else would they even change the ASCII character set!!)  Trust >> me, I've seen the source!!  > ) > Yes, I did Fortran, PL/I, C and Pascal     Wow, another Primate.  :-)5 And people today think buffer overruns are a problem.   N >                                         and they did Cobol and rpg for the   > commonL > backend similar, but better and earlier than VCG.  I had sources as well  
 > starting2 > with Version 15 something up through 19 or so.    G Must have been only a little C as I don't think Garth Conboy's compiler F was available until Rev 19.something Primos. At least I don't rememberF seeing it at Rev 18. I had the distinct "pleasure" of having to try toJ port whole bunches of Unix istuff to run on Primos.  A much  more dauntingI task than even doing the same to VMS.  Personally, I did my best projects H in Pascal (with subroutine calls for things like serial I/O).  It had to* be about the best language they supported.  L >                                                 I remember once for some   > reasonM > I no longer recall had to look at/modify the tape driver, it was written in  > Fortran!    I Fortran, PLI/G, SPL, PMA and later some Pascal and even C.  (What was the $ vallue of a NULL Pointer again?  :-)  J >           Later they modified PL/I and called it PLP and that became theK > systems language of choice.  They started out with a very talented crew   	 > many of @ > whom, including Poduska came out of the Multics environment.    E When you think about it, one has to wonder about the Multics project. D When they split up they went in two different directions, Primos andC Unix.  With such differing ideas of what an OS should look like you / have to wonder how they ever got anything done.   K >                                                               Since the   	 > machine N > was microcoded it could be run either as an accumulator machine, V-mode or   > as aH > general register machine, I-mode, which was imposed on Prime by some   > govenment  > contract,   5 It wouldn't surprise me to find out that was us.  :-)   N >           accordingly we had two distinct code generators for the compiler  	 > family. G > The compiler was largely done by Bob Freiburghouse and I assumed it    > relativelyF > late when Itook over Translation Systems from him after he started   > Stratus.  ThisH > was about the same time that Digital licensed PL/I and Cutler et.al.   > ported it fromK > a Multics host to VMS 1.0  PL/I was the primus motor for Prime securing   
 > Ford as one J > of their largest customers, and ironically it was PL/I on the VAX that   > took that N > business away.  Ford today remains a big VMS PL/I user, at least they were  
 > a couple > of years ago.   E I am amazed at how many there still are and where I find other former D Prime people.  I wonder how many VMS PL/I users actually were peopleD leaving Prime when it became obvious their demise was imminent?  VMSB would easily be the system of choice for any of them as opposed toB one of the flavors of Unix that were floating around at that time.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jan 2006 10:32:32 -0800 From: davidc@montagar.com P Subject: Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification"B Message-ID: <1137868352.093395.52110@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  E >Track record doesn't seem to be buying us much.  Expensive as it is, @ >being fully "certification compliant" can increase revenue.  If+ >Microsoft did it, it must make them money.   = That's because they are still trying to build a perception of D "security".  What with their security push from over two years ago -A yet the number of exploits found in a given period of time hasn't A changed much.  They NEED this "certification" in order to prevent  continued slips in confidence.   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jan 2006 18:39:35 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)P Subject: Re: How about VMS: "Windows XP Gets Independent Security Certification", Message-ID: <43fdf7F1nun7bU2@individual.net>  B In article <1137868352.093395.52110@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, 	davidc@montagar.com writes:F >>Track record doesn't seem to be buying us much.  Expensive as it is,A >>being fully "certification compliant" can increase revenue.  If , >>Microsoft did it, it must make them money. > ? > That's because they are still trying to build a perception of F > "security".  What with their security push from over two years ago -C > yet the number of exploits found in a given period of time hasn't C > changed much.  They NEED this "certification" in order to prevent   > continued slips in confidence.  D Most of the public don't deal in confidence.  If they did they neverC would have adopted MS in the first place.  I would imagine the rush @ to certification is needed to continue their push in gov (and in/ particular DOD) sales.  "Perception is Reality"    bill    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:29:10 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG# Subject: Re: LK463 (and Windows XP) 0 Message-ID: <00A5020E.BEA99B4D@SendSpamHere.ORG>  W In article <43d6e1F1n9adsU1@individual.net>, Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.ch> writes:  >  >  >Ken Fairfield wrote:  >> Paul Sture wrote: >>   >>> Ken Fairfield wrote: >>> D >>>>     On a personal note, since I'm in US-EN mode and very rarelyE >>>> have need for the Compose function/key, and since one can always C >>>> get to Help from the EVE command line, I could *almost* manage C >>>> with the above noted limitations.  However, lack of the Do key , >>>> is pretty much a show-stopper!  Sigh... >>>> >>> J >>> FWIW in similar situations I have mapped CTRL/D to Do. (I don't think 1 >>> that CTRL/D is used by anything else in VMS.)  >>   >>  F >> Actually it is, although I *never* use it.  From HELP Line_Editing, >>   >>    Edit Key        Function >>    --------        --------K >>    Ctrl/A or       Switches between overstrike mode and insert mode. The J >>    F14             default mode is reset at the beginning of each line. >>  H >>    Ctrl/D or       Moves the cursor one character to the left.    <-- >>    Left Arrow >>  > >>    Ctrl/E          Moves the cursor to the end of the line. >>  B >>    Ctrl/F or       Moves the cursor one character to the right. >>    Right Arrow  >>  D >>    Ctrl/H or       Moves the cursor to the beginning of the line. >>    Backspace or	 >>    F12  >>  A >>    Ctrl/J or       Deletes the word to the left of the cursor.  >>    Linefeed or 	 >>    F13  >>  J >>    Ctrl/U          Deletes characters from the beginning of the line to! >>                    the cursor.  >>  F >> I have always used Ctrl/B in EVE when using a "foreign" keyboard orG >> installation.  It gets you the command line, which you can edit, but H >> it's far from convenient in normal, everyday use.  Your idea of using, >> Ctrl/D as a fall back isn't half bad. :-) >>   > H >Thanks :-) Going back to the time when I was using terminal servers, I @ >defined CTRL/F and CTRL/D as next session and previous session G >respectively, so got used to not using them for line editing (console  G >excepted). Looking at the keyboard they are the only pair of adjacent  @ >keys which don't conflict with other control characters I want.   Hi Paul,  I If you happen upon a driver for the Mac (OS X) which will allow me to use  the LK463, do let me know.   --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jan 2006 00:11:57 -0800( From: "David Kanter" <dkanter@gmail.com>1 Subject: Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator B Message-ID: <1137831117.394578.26770@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   davidc@montagar.com wrote:D > Cool!  Somewhere, there should be a program called "Manequin" thatI > provides an emulation of Alpha hardware - which I think may run on VAX. G >  I think it was used during the initial OpenVMS porting efforts until 4 > sufficent hardware was available to do real stuff. > I > Now, if that could be made available, you could emulate an Alpha, on an D > emulated VAX, using a Windows version of CHARON-VAX on LInux under > WINE.  Ouch.  ) And I bet it'd run slower than any VAX...    DK   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jan 2006 06:44:12 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator 3 Message-ID: <87VDD4r4HlQk@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <1137820459.725149.229040@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, davidc@montagar.com writes: D > Cool!  Somewhere, there should be a program called "Manequin" thatI > provides an emulation of Alpha hardware - which I think may run on VAX. G >  I think it was used during the initial OpenVMS porting efforts until 4 > sufficent hardware was available to do real stuff.  / I believe Mannequin ran at .1 VUPS or .01 VUPS.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.042 ************************