0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 24 Jan 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 47      Contents: Re: 64 Bit Support for DCL0 Copy or Backup & keep same date/time attributes.4 Re: Copy or Backup & keep same date/time attributes.4 Re: Copy or Backup & keep same date/time attributes.4 Re: Copy or Backup & keep same date/time attributes.4 Re: Copy or Backup & keep same date/time attributes.2 Dave Cutler (was OT: time to market with the 8086) Re: DESTA Memory hog Re: ETHERMON for Alpha?  Re: FC Tape device ( DX30 ) ) Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing? ) Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing? ) Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing? ) Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing? ) Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing? ) Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing? ( Re: Free to a good home: old DEC manuals( Re: Free to a good home: old DEC manuals( Re: Free to a good home: old DEC manuals( Here it is: OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator, Re: Here it is: OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator, Re: Here it is: OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator, Re: Here it is: OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator, Re: Here it is: OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator. Re: How to read tape with wrong file attribute HP Strategy meeting  Re: HP Strategy meeting  Re: HP Strategy meeting  Re: HP Strategy meeting  Re: HP Strategy meeting 6 HP, Intel becoming laughing stock of computer industry7 Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito 3 Re: Intel, AMD CPUs nothing more than alpha clones! 3 Re: Intel, AMD CPUs nothing more than alpha clones! 3 Re: Intel, AMD CPUs nothing more than alpha clones! 3 Re: Intel, AMD CPUs nothing more than alpha clones!  Re: LK463 (and Windows XP) Re: LK463 (and Windows XP)4 Re: Mozilla: bookmarks and other stuff disappearing?4 Re: Mozilla: bookmarks and other stuff disappearing? New Pres at AMD, ex DEC  Re: New Pres at AMD, ex DEC ( Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator( Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator( Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator( Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator Re: SimH V3.5-2 released Re: SimH V3.5-2 released Re: SimH V3.5-2 released Re: SimH V3.5-2 released= Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance? = Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance? = Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance? = Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance? = Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance? = Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance? = Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance? = Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance? ' Telnet over WAN latency troubleshooting + Re: Telnet over WAN latency troubleshooting + Re: Telnet over WAN latency troubleshooting + Re: Telnet over WAN latency troubleshooting + Re: Telnet over WAN latency troubleshooting 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" 3 Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha" & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!& Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now!  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:05:28 +0100 , From: "Ferry Bolhar" <bol@adv.magwien.gv.at># Subject: Re: 64 Bit Support for DCL 5 Message-ID: <1137056730.261301@proxy.dienste.wien.at>    Bob Koehler:  F >  You _have_ to process the data in DCL?  Are you sure you can't haveF >  some tiny Fortran/C/Macro-32/... program do it for you and run that >  from you're DCL script.  = We have no HLL compiler and license. And MACRO-32: hm, I'dont > know...when did you program your last MACRO code? For me, it's about 15 years...   > >  It would be a fairly short effort to use lib$get_symbol andG >  lib$set_symbol to implement a program which accepts numeric strings, . >  does the math, and returns numeric strings.  H Yes, this could be a way, but since I have to do various operations withG the extracted data, I would have to write many images, so I hoped there  is an easier way...   F >   Or use C main() args or lib$get_foreign instead of lib$get_symbol.  + See above. We have no C compiler on Alphas.   A DCL is doubtless the most used "programming" language on OpenVMS. D So I thought if DEC/Compaq/HP provide support for 64-bit in OpenVMS,I they will do so in VMS's primary script language as well. So I'm a little G bit surprised and disappointed that even in Itaniums days, DCL still is  limited to 32 bit.  + Nevertheless, thanks for your suggenstions,    Greetings, Ferry   --   Ing. Ferry Bolhar % Municipality of Vienna, Department 14  A-1010 Vienna / AUSTRIA  E-mail: bol@adv.magwien.gv.at    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:37:31 -0500 + From: Chuck Aaron <caaron@ceris.purdue.edu> 9 Subject: Copy or Backup & keep same date/time attributes. 5 Message-ID: <dr3eqb$hrt$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>   * What is the copy command or backup command/ to copy files from one node to another and keep 0 the date and time stamp of the original file(s)?   Thanks in Advance.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 14:01:06 -0800+ From: "Lee Morgan" <leemorgan@ntlworld.com> = Subject: Re: Copy or Backup & keep same date/time attributes. C Message-ID: <1138051499.703027.208530@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   G As there aren't any parameter's for copy to retain original file dates, D the best way I believe is to backup your data to a saveset, copy theE saveset to the remote node and then use backup to restore the saveset  to your required location.  ) This will ensure the dates remain intact.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:46:29 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> = Subject: Re: Copy or Backup & keep same date/time attributes. 0 Message-ID: <11tan562nc5do6c@corp.supernews.com>   Lee Morgan wrote: I > As there aren't any parameter's for copy to retain original file dates, F > the best way I believe is to backup your data to a saveset, copy theG > saveset to the remote node and then use backup to restore the saveset  > to your required location. > + > This will ensure the dates remain intact.  >    A simple test on VAX/VMS V7.2    $ di/date h1.txt   Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]   I H1.TXT;7                       15/15      24-OCT-2002 15:28:16.03  [DFE]          )   Total of 1 file, 15/15 blocks. $ back h1.txt disk1: $ di/date disk1:h1   Directory DKA100:[DFE]  I H1.TXT;7                       15/15      24-OCT-2002 15:28:16.03  [DFE]          )  E This indicates, as I believed, that the intermediate save set is not  	 required.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 16:30:09 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>= Subject: Re: Copy or Backup & keep same date/time attributes. C Message-ID: <1138062609.456926.286140@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Dave Froble wrote: > Lee Morgan wrote: K > > As there aren't any parameter's for copy to retain original file dates, H > > the best way I believe is to backup your data to a saveset, copy theI > > saveset to the remote node and then use backup to restore the saveset  > > to your required location. > > - > > This will ensure the dates remain intact.  > >  >  > A simple test on VAX/VMS V7.2  >  > $ di/date h1.txt >  > Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]  > J > H1.TXT;7                       15/15      24-OCT-2002 15:28:16.03  [DFE]
 >        ) >   > Total of 1 file, 15/15 blocks. > $ back h1.txt disk1: > $ di/date disk1:h1 >  > Directory DKA100:[DFE] > J > H1.TXT;7                       15/15      24-OCT-2002 15:28:16.03  [DFE]
 >        ) > F > This indicates, as I believed, that the intermediate save set is not > required.  >  > --6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450 [...]     E The creation date-time will also be preserved by COPY but only if you F don't specify a name, type, or version number in the output file-spec.D The modification and expiration dates will not be preserved by COPY.  ? BACKUP will preserve the creation, modification, and expiration 4 date-times, even if you change the name of the file!  G However, you want to copy files to another node! You can't do that with G BACKUP without putting the files in a save set first. You can with COPY E and it will preserve the creation date-time across nodes, but only if > you don't explicitly change the name, type, or version number.   AEF    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:01:41 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> = Subject: Re: Copy or Backup & keep same date/time attributes. E Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0601231755320.28006@localhost.localdomain>   ' On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Dave Froble wrote:    > Lee Morgan wrote: J >> As there aren't any parameter's for copy to retain original file dates,G >> the best way I believe is to backup your data to a saveset, copy the H >> saveset to the remote node and then use backup to restore the saveset >> to your required location.  >>  , >> This will ensure the dates remain intact. >>   >  > A simple test on VAX/VMS V7.2  >  > $ di/date h1.txt >  > Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[DFE]  > K > H1.TXT;7                       15/15      24-OCT-2002 15:28:16.03  [DFE]   > )  >   > Total of 1 file, 15/15 blocks. > $ back h1.txt disk1: > $ di/date disk1:h1 >  > Directory DKA100:[DFE] > K > H1.TXT;7                       15/15      24-OCT-2002 15:28:16.03  [DFE]   > )  > G > This indicates, as I believed, that the intermediate save set is not   > required.   B The original poster (not quoted in the article you responded to), - asked about copying the file to another node.   + $ HELP BACKUP PARAMETERS (in VMS 7.1) says:   G >>>>>>>>> You can specify DECnet node names in save-set specifications   >>>>>>>>> only.   3 So the intermediate save set is required after all.    - Rob      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:39:39 -0500 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> ; Subject: Dave Cutler (was OT: time to market with the 8086) : Message-ID: <0zhxf.28480$Pq4.238410@news20.bellglobal.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:43C435FC.80407A3C@teksavvy.com... [...snip...] >  > J > But when you consider the number of VAX sites still out there, providingJ > a cheap and safe alternative would be very neat if the emulator were VMSJ > based because it would be a more politically correct way to upgrade from  > VAX to a more modern platform. > J > Depending on when the announcement of the port to the 8086 is made, I amA > not convinced that an IA64 emulator on the 8086 would really be G > necessary. As long as Alpha remains a superset of available software, J > emulating Alpha on the 8086 would be more important. (as would emulating > VAX).  > E > Until there is a point where much software exists only on that IA64 5 > thing, the need for the emulator won't be so great.   F My apologies for this reply but your 8086 post provided me with a niceH segue. This next paragraph came to me last week (Jan-2006) in a personal  email from an ex-Intel employee.   <quote>   L "Given your interest in VMS you might find this amusing. In the early 1990'sJ we visited Microsoft to try to ensure that their new OS "Windows NT" wouldK be available on IA32. We met with Dave Cutler, and he was adamant that IA32 I was doomed and would we please get lost so he could target Alpha and then I whatever 64-bit architecture was certain to replace IA32 by Intel. It was F not a polite disagreement; that guy HATED IA32 and wasn't reluctant toE transfer his displeasure to IA32's representatives (us). What an ugly % business meeting. Smart guy, though."    </quote>  G I asked for a clarification on the phrase "IA32" as it pertains to this I quote and was told that it refers to both 486 (which was in production in 1 1990) and Pentium which was still in development.   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:05:59 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: DESTA Memory hog + Message-ID: <43D58B87.A67143CF@comcast.net>    comp.os.vms@hotmail.com wrote: >  > Thanks David. D > It turns out we were a few versions/patches behind.  This is being > remedied. F > Is the 1MB size problem still relevant for 4.33 - the version we are > heading for I think    AFAIK, yes.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:17:12 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>  Subject: Re: ETHERMON for Alpha?+ Message-ID: <43D58E27.3C0E8EEC@comcast.net>    Richard Brodie wrote:  > A > "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message ' > news:43D2C3F5.C93DA650@comcast.net...  > / > >> Which TCP stack are you running & version.  > > J > > Wrong layer. I'm looking for layer 2, not layer 3. (Don't have layer 3J > > connectivity, trying found out why by seeing what's wrong at layer 2.) > C > TCPDUMP, despite its name, is a packet capture and decoding tool; A > unlike TCPTRACE, which shipped with earlier UCX versions, which  > was TCP/IP and friends only.  E Som UCX's TCPDUMP can listen promiscuously and dump out everything it ( "hears", regardless of layer-3 protocol?  C Your comment also implies that it can do some (perhaps rudimentary) H protocol analysis (for example, for 0800 packets, tell me the source and destination IP addresses)?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:58:09 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>$ Subject: Re: FC Tape device ( DX30 )+ Message-ID: <43D597C0.20C60C3E@comcast.net>    kiwi-red wrote:  >  > Hi > G > Has anyone tried using a DX30 on an Alpha. I saw a post from a couple ! > of years ago, but nothing else.  > D > I have an ES40 running 7.3-2 with a KGPSA-C connected to a brocade	 > switch. E > I have a DX30 ( http://www.ultriumlto.com/quantum/quantumdx30.htm )  > which - > is set up to be 12 DLT devices and a robot.  > I > The switch says that both devices are In Sync. According to the Brocade I > Fabric OS manual this is normal and shows that you have a laser in sync  > with the device attached > G > The SAN guy here thinks that the devices should be broadcasting their  > WWID numbers.  > G > The KGPSA was set to loop with the DX 30 direct connected but we were F > unable to see any device. We've connected it to a switch and changed? > the KGPSA to Fabric topology and we still can't see anything.  > ' > mc sysman io a doesn't find anything. , > a show dev from >>> doesn't show anything.E > a mc sysman io find says No previously undiscovered WWIDs have been  > found. > I > I haven't done any wwidmgr command from the >>> prompt. As I understand " > it, this is for disks not tapes. > ; > Any idea what I need to do to make these tapes available?   6 Check the VMS doc., or see the on-line help in SYSMAN:   SYSMAN> HELP IO LIST  : IO LIST displays FC tapes not already known to the system.   SYSMAN> HELP IO FIND  H IO FIND adds currently unknown FC tapes to the list of known devices and to SYS$SYSTEM:SYS$DEVICES.DAT.     SYSMAN> IO AUTOCONFIGURE  D Builds DCBs for the FC tapes made known to the system since boot-up.2 After this step, the $2$MGA devices can be "seen".   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:35:09 -0800 , From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com>2 Subject: Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing?+ Message-ID: <dr37kt$nt1$1@news01.intel.com>   / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: E > In article <1137893795.722320.292690@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ) > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:   >  >>> Consider the following:  >>> U >>> $  PRIVREQUEST :== $DISK$SOFT:[HTTP_SERVER_3-10A.'ARCH'.BASE_CODE]PRIVREQUEST.EXE  >> [...]2 >>> $  WWW_NEWTRACE :== 'PRIVREQUEST' 931 NEWTRACE >> [...] >>  = [snip problem with extra space add when using WWW_NEWTRACE/3]   <      Here's a little DCL trick that will solve your problem.3 Change the symbol definition(s) to read as follows:   1 $ WWW_NEWTRACE == "''priverequest' 931 NEWTRACE'"   @ Note the trailing apostrophe just prior to the closing quotation. mark.  That's the key.  Here's a demontration:  < ------------------------------------------------------------ Ken> type test_tick.com  $ Show Symbol P1 $ Show Symbol P2 $ Exit Ken> test == "@Test_Tick FIRST"  Ken> test apple     P1 = "FIRST"     P2 = "APPLE"   Ken> test == "@Test_Tick FIRST'" Ken> test apple     P1 = "FIRSTAPPLE"
    P2 = "" Ken>= -------------------------------------------------------------   ? I admit to not knowing what "feature" or rule of DCL manages to A accomplish this feat, but I do know I have used it more than once  in the past.  C      And of course, as others have noted, the reason PRIVREQUEST is A giving you this problem is because it is *not* using DCL to parse A the command line.  Otherwise, a space before a qualifier wouldn't A matter.  One of my pet peeves is "imitation" DCL command lines...    	-Ken  --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:39:39 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)2 Subject: Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing?$ Message-ID: <dr3bdr$2mu$1@online.de>  9 In article <dr37kt$nt1$1@news01.intel.com>, Ken Fairfield ! <my.full.name@intel.com> writes:    > >      Here's a little DCL trick that will solve your problem.5 > Change the symbol definition(s) to read as follows:  > 3 > $ WWW_NEWTRACE == "''priverequest' 931 NEWTRACE'"   F David Jones (who wrote the OSU server) offered the same suggesting on   the mailing list for the server.  B > Note the trailing apostrophe just prior to the closing quotation0 > mark.  That's the key.  Here's a demontration:  A > I admit to not knowing what "feature" or rule of DCL manages to C > accomplish this feat, but I do know I have used it more than once  > in the past.  G Apparently, this trick will not only get rid of the implied space (why  H is that there in the first place) but also get rid of real space in the 
 command line.   E >      And of course, as others have noted, the reason PRIVREQUEST is C > giving you this problem is because it is *not* using DCL to parse C > the command line.  Otherwise, a space before a qualifier wouldn't C > matter.  One of my pet peeves is "imitation" DCL command lines...   B Yes.  I prefer a real CLD (which doesn't have to mess with the DCLG tables; one can compile it into the foreign command).  In this case, my E suspicion is that, since the server was written with VMS in mind (and D originally for VMS), a VMS "look and feel" was desired but, since itH apparently also runs on Digital Unix (wasn't there also DECnet availableD for Digital Unix (the server can run without it but runs better with. it)), code was needed which would run on both.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 16:11:55 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>2 Subject: Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing?C Message-ID: <1138061515.284509.265740@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: ; > In article <dr37kt$nt1$1@news01.intel.com>, Ken Fairfield " > <my.full.name@intel.com> writes: > @ > >      Here's a little DCL trick that will solve your problem.7 > > Change the symbol definition(s) to read as follows:  > > 5 > > $ WWW_NEWTRACE == "''priverequest' 931 NEWTRACE'"  > G > David Jones (who wrote the OSU server) offered the same suggesting on " > the mailing list for the server. > D > > Note the trailing apostrophe just prior to the closing quotation2 > > mark.  That's the key.  Here's a demontration: > C > > I admit to not knowing what "feature" or rule of DCL manages to E > > accomplish this feat, but I do know I have used it more than once  > > in the past. > H > Apparently, this trick will not only get rid of the implied space (whyI > is that there in the first place) but also get rid of real space in the  > command line.   @ Whatever it is it has something to do with the fact that foreignD command substitution happens in phase 2 of DCL command processing --C namely, command parsing. Apparently, DCL decides that the result of ; substituting for WWW_NEWTRACE is the command verb (plus any D "parameters"). Anything following it (in this case, the /11 part) isE simply treated as completely separate stuff. Putting a space there is F consistent with that. Apparently, someone at DEC wanted to do what you@ wanted to do and sneaked in the apostrophe trick. The apostropheD apparently tells DCL to append the first token following the foreign< command to the last token in the foreign command definition.  C It is also said that DCL does not parse such commands. I think this ? really means that the stuff following the .exe file-spec is not G *interpreted*, especially slashes as qualifier indicators. And it is up ? to the program to gather this stuff and parse and interpret it.        >----o----<   B I don't know of any doucmentation that can explain this apostropheG trick. The apostrophe is not known to the command interpreter until the D foreign command is substituted for -- and that happens in phase 2 --4 whereas apostrophes are documented only for phase 1.  A BTW: One can also ask why your application can't handle the extra 8 space! Especially since the /11 starts with a slash. :-)   > G > >      And of course, as others have noted, the reason PRIVREQUEST is E > > giving you this problem is because it is *not* using DCL to parse E > > the command line.  Otherwise, a space before a qualifier wouldn't E > > matter.  One of my pet peeves is "imitation" DCL command lines...   , So why doesn't the program ignore the space?   > D > Yes.  I prefer a real CLD (which doesn't have to mess with the DCLI > tables; one can compile it into the foreign command).  In this case, my G > suspicion is that, since the server was written with VMS in mind (and F > originally for VMS), a VMS "look and feel" was desired but, since itJ > apparently also runs on Digital Unix (wasn't there also DECnet availableF > for Digital Unix (the server can run without it but runs better with0 > it)), code was needed which would run on both.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:21:00 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 2 Subject: Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing?+ Message-ID: <43D58EF0.550799E@teksavvy.com>   
 AEF wrote:C > BTW: One can also ask why your application can't handle the extra : > space! Especially since the /11 starts with a slash. :-)  / PRIVREQUEST expects a fixed number of arguments   3 PRIVREQUEST <from_port> <command> <to_address:port>     1 PRIVREQUEST 931 NEWTRACE /11 www.chocolate.com:80   C The web server will see /11 as the <to_address:port> argument and a + newtrace without tracelevel as the command.     0 PRIVREQUEST 931 NEWTRACE/11 www.chocolate.com:80  E the web server will see www.chocolate.com:80 as the <to_address:port> ( argument and newtrace/11 as the command.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 19:38:45 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>2 Subject: Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing?C Message-ID: <1138073925.319549.196230@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > AEF wrote:E > > BTW: One can also ask why your application can't handle the extra < > > space! Especially since the /11 starts with a slash. :-) > 1 > PRIVREQUEST expects a fixed number of arguments  > 5 > PRIVREQUEST <from_port> <command> <to_address:port>  >  > 3 > PRIVREQUEST 931 NEWTRACE /11 www.chocolate.com:80  > E > The web server will see /11 as the <to_address:port> argument and a - > newtrace without tracelevel as the command.  >  > 2 > PRIVREQUEST 931 NEWTRACE/11 www.chocolate.com:80 > G > the web server will see www.chocolate.com:80 as the <to_address:port> * > argument and newtrace/11 as the command.  D OK. So either use the apostrophe trick or type the commands as given! above in the examples that work.     AEF    AEF    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 19:36:46 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>2 Subject: Re: forgetting my DCL: what am I missing?C Message-ID: <1138073806.529953.165380@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Ken Fairfield wrote: > AEF wrote: >  > [very BIG snip]  > E > > BTW: One can also ask why your application can't handle the extra < > > space! Especially since the /11 starts with a slash. :-) > > I > >>>      And of course, as others have noted, the reason PRIVREQUEST is G > >>> giving you this problem is because it is *not* using DCL to parse G > >>> the command line.  Otherwise, a space before a qualifier wouldn't G > >>> matter.  One of my pet peeves is "imitation" DCL command lines...  > > 0 > > So why doesn't the program ignore the space? > = >      Because the person who wrote the program (not Phillip) > > wrote their own command line parser which, for this program,; > requires the "/11" to be "attached" to the 3rd parameter.   D So why does DCL put in that "extra space"? Because the person(s) who) wrote that part of DCL wrote it that way.    > @ >       Phillip proffered that this program needs to run on bothB > VMS and Digital Unix, which provides an excuse to do the commandA > line handling the unix way. :-(   I call it an "excuse" because C > there's no reason that the operating system-specific parts of the B > program couldn't include real DCL parsing (as Phillip mentioned,D > via a compiled .CLD and calls to LIB$DCL_PARSE, etc.).  Instead weC > get this: an imitation DCL command line that fails under "normal" F > DCL usage.  We've also encountered this in the various post-DECeventD > error log analyzers, e.g., Compaq Analyze (CA) and the more recent > System Event Analyzer (WSEA).   D The problem comes with trying to use the foreign command. So use theF apostrophe trick and be done with it! I'm not familiar with your other< examples, though it seems they have less of an excuse to use "imitation" DCL format.    >  >      -Ken  > --8 > I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... >  > Ken Fairfield # > D1C Automation VMS System Support $ > who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield > where: intel dot com   AEF    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 16:41:16 -06002 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)1 Subject: Re: Free to a good home: old DEC manuals 3 Message-ID: <0xxSUgnuQ05b@eisner.encompasserve.org>   
 Round 2...  H I'm cleaning up my home office. I've got a lot of stuff that will eitherL need to find a new home, or will head to the recycle bin. All I'm asking forG any of this is my shipping costs from Chicago. I've grouped things into K related lots, i.e. all materials from the same training class or product. I L will NOT break things up any finer. First email(s) by 30-Jan takes each lot.= be sure to let me know which materials you are interested in.   E VMS V5 Support Update Seminar Student Workbook	EY-9810E-SG-001	(1988) E VMS V5 Support Update Seminar Source Listings	EY-9810E-SL-0001 (1988)   : VAX/VMS V4.0 Update Seminar Vol 1		EY-2311E-V1-0001 (1984): VAX/VMS V4.0 Update Seminar Vol 2		EY-2311E-V2-0001 (1984)4 VAX/VMS V4.0 [bunch of handouts for V4 and clusters]  5 DECnet/VAX Support Volume 1			EY-0150E-SG-0101 (1982) 5 DECnet/VAX Support Volume 2			EY-0150E-SG-0201 (1982) 5 DECnet/VAX Support Volume 3			EY-0150E-SG-0301 (1982) 4 Ethernet Products and Services 			ED-25484-42 (1983); DECnet DNA Phase IV General Description		AA-N149A-TC (1982) K Networks SIG Session notes 1984 Spring DECUS Cincinnati OH (1984) (3 parts)   E VAX/VMS System Management Installing/Updating	EY-2282E-MG-0001 (1984) E VAX/VMS System Management Customizing        	EY-2282E-ME-0001 (1984) E VAX/VMS System Management Managing Queues    	EY-2282E-MC-0001 (1984) E VAX/VMS System Management User Environment   	EY-2282E-MA-0001 (1984) G VAX/VMS System Management Montioring PerformanceEY-2282E-MJ-0001 (1984) E VAX/VMS System Management System Ingegrity   	EY-2282E-MH-0001 (1984) E VAX/VMS System Management VAXclusters        	EY-2282E-MI-0001 (1984) E VAX/VMS System Management Student Guide      	EY-2282E-SG-0001 (1984) E VAX/VMS System Management Disk and Tape      	EY-2282E-MD-0001 (1984) E VAX/VMS System Management Startup Shutdown   	EY-2282E-MF-0001 (1984)   F Understanding VAXcluster Hardware Architecture	EY-4530E-01-0001 (1985)E VAXcluster Management Student Workbook       	EY-2505E-01-0001 (1985) E VAXcluster Management Seminar                	EY-2505E-SS-0001 (1985)   8 VAX/VMS Utilities and Commands			EY-1159E-SG-0301 (1982)B VAX/VMS Utilities and Commands Test/Exer  	EY-1159E-TP-0101 (1982)  2 VAX/VMS System Programmer			EY-0019-SG-0001 (1982)8 VAX/VMS System Programmer Tests			EY-0019-TP-0101 (1982)8 VAX/VMS System Programmer Tests			EY-0019-TP-0201 (1982)  ; VAX/VMS Device Driver Listing Book		EY-2278E-MM-0001 (1984) < VAX/VMS Device Driver Student Guide		EY-2278E-SG-0001 (1984); VAX/VMS Device Driver Overview    		EY-2278E-MA-0001 (1984) @ VAX/VMS Device Driver I/O Dat Structures	EY-2278E-MB-0001 (1984); VAX/VMS Device Driver I/O Sequence		EY-2278E-MC-0001 (1984) B VAX/VMS Device Driver Driver Incorporation	EY-2278E-MD-0001 (1984)< VAX/VMS Device Driver Driver Tables		EY-2278E-ME-0001 (1984); VAX/VMS Device Driver FDT Routines		EY-2278E-MF-0001 (1984) ; VAX/VMS Device Driver Debugging   		EY-2278E-MG-0001 (1984) @ VAX/VMS Device Driver Required Routines		EY-2278E-MH-0001 (1984)@ VAX/VMS Device Driver Optional Routines		EY-2278E-MI-0001 (1984)= VAX/VMS Device Driver Related Topics		EY-2278E-MJ-0001 (1984) ? VAX/VMS Device Driver I/O Architecture		EY-2278E-MK-0001 (1984) D VAX/VMS Device Driver Supplimentary readings	EY-2278E-ML-0001 (1984)@ VAX/VMS Device Driver Tests and ANswers		EY-2278E-MN-0001 (1984)  ; VAX/VMS Internals & Data Structures V2.2	AA-K785A-TE (1981) 9 VMS Internals Tests & Exercises			EY-0016E-TP-0001 (1982) 7 VMS Internals Source Listings			EY-0016E-ID-0001 (1982) ; VMS Internals Student Guide       		EY-0016E-SG-0001 (1982) = VMS Internals pre post tests        		EY-0016E-TP-0201 (1982)   ; Communications Options Minireference Manual	EK-CMIV1-RM-002 ; Communications Options Minireference Manual	EK-CMIV2-RM-002 ; Communications Options Minireference Manual	EK-CMIV4-RM-002   < VAX 9000 Console Command Description		EK-9000C-CD-001 (1990)B VAX 9000 Power System Technical Description	EK-KA90P-TD-001 (1990)  2 VMS System Managers Manual			AA-LA00A-TE (1988 V5)6 VMS License Management Utility			AA-LA33A-TE (1988 V5)5 Overview of VMS Documentation			AA-LA95A-TE (1988 V5)   6 OpenVMS Performance Management 			1-878956-40-x (1994)  ) Using MS-DOS Kermit				EY-H893E-DP (1992)   6 Programming with RT-11 Volume 2			0-932376-33-9 (1984)  5 OpenVMS and Windows NT integration for Dummies (2000)   , VT320 installing and Using			EK-VT320-UG-001  8 LN03 Programmer Reference Manual		EK-OLN03-RM-002 (1985)@ LN03R ScriptPrinter Programmer Suppliment	EK-LN03R-SP-001 (1987)3 LN03A Installing and Using			EK-LN03A-UG-002 (1986)   7 Scholar Plus Modem Users Guide			EK-DF242-UG-001 (1987) 5 Scholar Plus Getting Started			EK-DF242-GS-001 (1987)    --  O   Bob Kaplow   NAR # 18L   >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<< E Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  B         The problem with governments is that citizens need to keepD         them on a short leash; unfortunately the nature of the beastD         is such that governments can usually arrange it so that only"         they hold their own leash.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 17:00:26 -08007 From: "greg.chabala@gmail.com" <greg.chabala@gmail.com> 1 Subject: Re: Free to a good home: old DEC manuals C Message-ID: <1138064426.430006.249270@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   C I'm calling dibs on the VMS stuff, as much as Bob will let me have!    Greg Chabala gregchabala.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:08:18 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>1 Subject: Re: Free to a good home: old DEC manuals + Message-ID: <43D58C12.79F01CF9@comcast.net>    "greg.chabala@gmail.com" wrote:  > E > I'm calling dibs on the VMS stuff, as much as Bob will let me have!   
 Go for it!  G His list contains some documentation with knowledge that is the core of H OpenVMS System Amdinistration, even today and as dated as some of it is!   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 14:17:51 -0800 From: "Arie" <arie@zeepost.nl>1 Subject: Here it is: OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator C Message-ID: <1138054671.491533.185960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    mabbuttg@yahoo.ca wrote:I > I'm curious if anyone has gotten OpenVMS/Alpha to run on a simulator on  > x86, and if so, how.  F Well yes, we have. When you look at our webpage www.personalalpha.com,A you will find exactly what you need, I think. Just an hour ago we E presented this product to the OpenVMS ambassadors during their annual  meeting.  # Let me know your thoughts about it.    Thanks,   
 Arie de Groot  Emulators International  The Netherlands  www.emulatorsinternational.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:11:09 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>5 Subject: Re: Here it is: OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator ? Message-ID: <hodBf.174659$D47.165425@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    Arie wrote:   H > Well yes, we have. When you look at our webpage www.personalalpha.com,C > you will find exactly what you need, I think. Just an hour ago we G > presented this product to the OpenVMS ambassadors during their annual 
 > meeting. > % > Let me know your thoughts about it.   H Does the download run in a time limited manner before we get the credit I cards out?? I'd rather not spend $465 just to let you know what I think.  F It could be amazing and worth every penny or it could run slower than  JF's legendary MicroVAX II.   H Congratulations on the work in any case! Wasn't expecting anything this  soon.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:29:07 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>5 Subject: Re: Here it is: OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator + Message-ID: <43D566C3.3050209@netscape.net>    Arie wrote:  .  > % > Let me know your thoughts about it.   G It appears to have started an install of Microsoft .NET Framework 2 on  C my PC without my permission and doesn't seem to want to cancel the  H install. You need to provide more details about what's going on here if % you don't want to get flamed to hell.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:37:20 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG5 Subject: Re: Here it is: OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator 0 Message-ID: <00A503DC.E3E80DDF@SendSpamHere.ORG>  d In article <1138054671.491533.185960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Arie" <arie@zeepost.nl> writes: >  >  >  >mabbuttg@yahoo.ca wrote: J >> I'm curious if anyone has gotten OpenVMS/Alpha to run on a simulator on >> x86, and if so, how.  > G >Well yes, we have. When you look at our webpage www.personalalpha.com, B >you will find exactly what you need, I think. Just an hour ago weF >presented this product to the OpenVMS ambassadors during their annual	 >meeting.  > $ >Let me know your thoughts about it. >  >Thanks, >  >Arie de Groot >Emulators International >The Netherlands >www.emulatorsinternational.com   5 What good is it if it only runs on Weendoze machines?    Put it on OS X and I'll buy it.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:28:00 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>5 Subject: Re: Here it is: OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator + Message-ID: <43D590B0.52CA34E0@comcast.net>    Alan Greig wrote:  > 
 > Arie wrote:  > .  > > ' > > Let me know your thoughts about it.  > H > It appears to have started an install of Microsoft .NET Framework 2 onD > my PC without my permission and doesn't seem to want to cancel theI > install. You need to provide more details about what's going on here if ' > you don't want to get flamed to hell.   ' Yes. DEFINITELY! Lose the M$ garbage...    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 17:16:02 -0800" From: "Bill Law" <blaw@cincom.com>7 Subject: Re: How to read tape with wrong file attribute C Message-ID: <1138065362.095755.205610@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > Bill Law wrote:  > >  > > Greetings, > > K > > We are trying to copy the contents of a large 1.5GB file from tape to a K > > disk file but are so far unable to do so.  The problem seems to be that J > > the file on tape has file attributes that do not match the actual fileI > > contents.  The tape was written on a VMS machine by a C program which J > > was designed for UNIX, but the same program is unable to read it back. > > G > > The valid contents of the tape file are a sequence of 4096 bytes of F > > binary data.  Doing a dump of the tape file shows that it actuallyG > > contains 4 bytes of ASCII string "4101", followed by the 4096 valid J > > bytes of binary data, followed by a <LF> character hex 0A.  A DIR/FULL2 > > command on the tape file yields the following:" > > File organization:  Sequential > > K > > File attributes:    Allocation: 121737, Extend: 0, Global buffer count:  > > 0, Version limit: 0 C > > Record format:      Stream_LF, maximum 0 bytes, longest 0 bytes  > > E > > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control, Non-spanned  > >  > > RMS attributes:     None > > B > > A simple COPY of the file to disk gives a disk file with these > > attributes: " > > File organization:  Sequential > > E > > File attributes:    Allocation: 3605877, Extend: 0, Global buffer  > > count: 0, No version limitF > > Record format:      Stream_LF, maximum 0 bytes, longest 5756 bytes > > 8 > > Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control > >  > > RMS attributes:     None > > H > > but this resulting disk file is corrupted by having 4 bytes stripped0 > > following every x0A binary byte in the file. > > E > > So we are trying to develop a C program to read the tape in a raw C > > format like dump can, then strip out the leading "4101" and the E > > trailing <LF>, and finally write each 4096 binary bytes to a good 4 > > output file.  Using the following does NOT work: > > 
 > > [snip] > > K > > Both the fread() and the sys$read() fail to read the tape file with the G > > tape mounted both /foreign and not.  Surely this is possible, there F > > must be something wrong in the options used to open the tape file.I > > Would someone please help us figure out how to get this file properly F > > copied from tape to disk?  Thanks in advance; any insight would be > > greatly appreciated. > 0 > The issue seems to be in the way the tape was: > 
 > A. Labelled  > B. Written > J > A. Labelled - because the RMS attributes indicate a Stream_LF file, they" > should show sequential/variable. > J > B. Written - because the record terminator was included. The file shouldD > have been written to tape with no tape label records or the recordI > terminators should have been stripped out, but not neither (intentional J > double negative). The tape was written labelled (UN*X systems don't knowG > from ANSI labels without added software) *AND* the record terminators 3 > were included. That should be mutually exclusive.  > C > If possible, the tape should be re-written while MOUNTed/FOREIGN.  > F > If the tape cannot be re-written, you can still salvage it, but it's@ > going to take a fair amount of work. Normally I'd do this on aI > consulting basis since so few folks understand magentic tape labels and C > their function. Here's what you can try (what I would try first):  > I > CAVEAT: A fair number of potentially invalid assumptions are made here!  > + > 1. MOUNT the tape /FOREIGN/BLOCKSIZE=4101  > E > /BLOCKSIZE in this case allocates enough bufferspace to hold a tape I > block, it does *NOT* force the system to read (or write!) 4101 bytes at 	 > a time.  > F > 2. COPY the first dataset on the tape (the VOL1 and HDR labels) to a > disk file: >  > $ COPY ddcu: HEADERS.DAT > . > 3. COPY the actual tape file itself to disk: >  > $ COPY ddcu: DATA.DAT  > G > 4. COPY the next dataset on the tape (the EOF labels) to a disk file:  >  > $ COPY ddcu: TRAILERS.DAT  > 4 > 5. DISMOUNT and unload the tape, and keep it safe. > F > 6. Get another tape and load it. Don't MOUNT it yet. Make sure it is > WRITE enabled. > E > 7. Edit the HEADERS.DAT file. Delete the HDR3 record and everything  > after it.  > F > 8. Edit the TRAILERS.DAT file. Delete the EOF3 record and everything > after it.  > 3 > 9. MOUNT the scratch tape /FOREIGN/BLOCKSIZE=4101  > / > 10. COPY the files to the tape in this order:  >  > $ COPY HEADERS.DAT ddcu: > $ COPY DATA.DAT ddcu:  > $ COPY TRAILERS.DAT ddcu:  > E > 11. DISMOUNT/NOUNLOAD the tape, then MOUNT it again using /OVER=ID.  > F > 12. Try the DIRECTORY/FULL command on the tape file again. It shouldJ > show sequential/variable, with no mention of Stream_LF. If it does this, > proceed to the next steps. > * > 13. COPY the null device to a disk file: >  > $ COPY NLA0: DISKFILE.DAT  > E > This will create an empty file with sequential/variable attributes.  > ? > 14. Change the RMS attributes of the empty file just created:  > 1 > $ SET FILE/ATTR=(RFM=FIX,LRL=4097) DISKFILE.DAT  > / > 15. APPEND the tape file to the file on disk:  > ' > $ APPEND ddcu:[]filespec DISKFILE.DAT  > G > Ignore the message about attributes that don't match. This will strip J > off the leading four bytes ("4101") leaving only the data in each record# > plus the <LF> at the end of each.  > 2 > 16.  Change the RMS attributes of the disk file: > ( > $ SET FILE/ATTR=RFM=STMLF DISKFILE.DAT > 7 > This should get you a file that any program can read.   
 Greetings,  . Thank you for the wonderful detailed response.  G This problem has been solved with some help from David's response above E and from HP Support.  It turned out to be 2 things preventing us from D reading the tape.  First our program had to read 41000 bytes.  If itG tried to only read 4096 bytes or anything less than 41000 bytes then it ? received "%RMS-F-RER, file read error" which turned out to have G "%SYSTEM-W-DATAOVERUN, data overrun" in the rab$l_stv field.  Second it = had to use FAB$M_BIO in order to read raw data from the tape.    --   Cheers, Bill  :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:22:40 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: HP Strategy meeting, Message-ID: <43D54916.5EFCB459@teksavvy.com>  V http://news.com.com/HP+outlines+long-term+strategy/2100-1014_3-6029519.html?tag=st.num   Well worth a read.    $ At the very end, on teh second page:   ##C And while HP has struggled with getting customers and the market to G understand its "Adaptive Enterprise" concept, the same mistake will not G happen with HP's "Next Generation Data Center Architecture," the source  said.  ##    E Also mention that HP is unhappy with delays with that IA64 thing, and ) considering using more and more Opterons.   P And a mention that HP may be moving away from mainframes and focusing on Blades.    B Lets just hope the VMS engineers are already putting the finishingF touches to the SCS interconnects using whatvere technology links blade servers together.   H I wonder if HP could develop 8086 based blade servers with the same typeH of interconnects that "Galaxy" class machines had between their buildingF blocks. (eg: much more than just a glorified ethernet, but also shared memory etc).  H VMS would be able to use those right away, and it would take a very long/ time before Windows etc could make use of that. C It would give VMS an undeniable advantage over Windows and Linux on  industry standard 8086 systems.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:54:45 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>  Subject: Re: HP Strategy meeting> Message-ID: <V8dBf.188564$vl2.45741@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   JF Mezei wrote:   X > http://news.com.com/HP+outlines+long-term+strategy/2100-1014_3-6029519.html?tag=st.num >  > G > Also mention that HP is unhappy with delays with that IA64 thing, and + > considering using more and more Opterons.   & Just to quote a little of the article:  G "Two weeks ago, HP CEO Mark Hurd, the company's board of directors and  E senior executives gathered at the computer giant's annual management  ( retreat to discuss long-term strategies. ....F On the chip front, although HP and Intel have had a long relationship H involving their collaboration on the Itanium chip, delays by Intel have I created frustration in the HP camp, the source said. As a result, HP may  G use Intel's archrival Advanced Micro Devices as a cattle prod of sorts  $ to the chip giant, the source noted.  > "We plan to use AMD's Opteron more and more," the source said.  G Opteron competes chiefly with x86 chips such as Intel's Xeon. HP sells  H ProLiant-brand servers with as many as four Opteron or Xeon processors. G However, x86 chips have steadily gained in computing power and overlap  1 in abilities with HP's lower-end Itanium servers. F Intel declined to comment, other than to note that HP has been a very = valuable partner, said Scott McLaughlin, an Intel spokesman."    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:28:38 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: HP Strategy meeting= Message-ID: <PbCdnSGjoIlEDUjeRVn-uw@metrocastcablevision.com>    Alan Greig wrote:    ...   H > On the chip front, although HP and Intel have had a long relationship J > involving their collaboration on the Itanium chip, delays by Intel have K > created frustration in the HP camp, the source said. As a result, HP may  I > use Intel's archrival Advanced Micro Devices as a cattle prod of sorts  & > to the chip giant, the source noted.  H While Dell can use the threat of opening up AMD sales 'as a cattle prod G of sorts' to obtain preferred treatment in various ways from Intel, it  H seems unlikely that Intel could move *all* that much faster with Itanic F regardless of how much pressure was applied.  So any Opteron moves HP C makes will probably be strictly due to perceived self-interest (or  E conceivably as a form of retribution) rather than attempts to affect   Intel's behavior.   B If the Horus products are as good as their early performance data I suggested, they offer HP an immediate way to counter IBM's excellent but  I rather pricey 'X3' chipset that scales up to 32 Xeon sockets (64 cores),  F a hedge against Sun Opteron incursions, and a way to steal a march on H other competition that has only Itanics to offer in that space.  Unless G the next Superdome chipsets are really something special, HP will have  @ enough competition in the rather limited Itanic market that the G potentially larger and less competitive mid-range-and-up x86-64 market  % may look quite a bit more attractive.    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 19:17:57 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com   Subject: Re: HP Strategy meetingC Message-ID: <1138072677.621158.235820@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   C forget the mainframe when it is making a comeback as people finally G figured out that running 80000 server windoze farms was not cost saving A and inefficent?  So they now have given up competing with IBM ...   F they still have alpha to compete with and will not use it and admit it is better than itanium ...  F some strategy session ... they might have just as well decided to just% stop selling computers altogether ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:16:46 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   Subject: Re: HP Strategy meeting, Message-ID: <43D5C648.74F6AEF6@teksavvy.com>   Bill Todd wrote:I > While Dell can use the threat of opening up AMD sales 'as a cattle prod H > of sorts' to obtain preferred treatment in various ways from Intel, itI > seems unlikely that Intel could move *all* that much faster with Itanic . > regardless of how much pressure was applied.    H The reason that IA64 thing hasn't been formally killed yet is because ofD various commitments and deals between Intel and HP.  The pressure HPI might wield on intel is perhaps to modify the agreed upon exit strategy.    @ With Opteron making Intel lose market share and forcing Intel toH accelerate 8086 developments. As a result, the shared systems interfacesF that had been planned to appear for both 8086 and IA64 will now appear on 8086 well before IA64.   G This means that the 8086 may gain capabilities well before IA64 and put B HP at a disadvantage if it continues to hinder iots own 8086 based* systems to give IA64 some room to breathe.  B If HP has committed to buying certain volumes of IA64, that may be0 renegotiated and moved those quantities to 8086.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 19:24:41 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com ? Subject: HP, Intel becoming laughing stock of computer industry C Message-ID: <1138073081.625002.123050@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   G when will they forget itanium and use alpha ... it runs vms and windoze  and G linux already and has EV79 and EV8 already laid out ready to go ... now  theyE are using a cheap alpha clone in AMD when they could be producing and = using the top chip in the industry ... genius strategy HP ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:53:58 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> @ Subject: Re: Intel drops 8086 instruction support from Montecito, Message-ID: <43D53452.66F46D40@teksavvy.com>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > + > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=29154   C Yep. But my question still stands: why wasn't the useless 8086 core A maintained past Merced ? If Digital sales folks knew in 1999 that H Merced's 8086 core was old, slow and useless, then Intel engineers would also have known.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 11:29:48 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com < Subject: Re: Intel, AMD CPUs nothing more than alpha clones!C Message-ID: <1138044588.345994.221420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   . Palmer lost the shareholders tons of money but4 did well for himself selling alpha parts to amd then taking a cozy job there ...    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 11:30:49 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com < Subject: Re: Intel, AMD CPUs nothing more than alpha clones!C Message-ID: <1138044649.930586.106950@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   - and by clone I mean cheap clone with bits and 2 pieces of alpha technology that still fail to make" them as good as the alpha chip ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:56:47 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> < Subject: Re: Intel, AMD CPUs nothing more than alpha clones!, Message-ID: <43D534FB.DF07F88F@teksavvy.com>   davidc@montagar.com wrote: >  DEC "won" aG > settlement from them that granted them rights to use Alpha technology I > and acquire a FAB from DEC for it's book value.  I'm still not sure how + > Palmer managed to spin that into a "win".     G At that time, Palmer had already begin talks with Pfeiffer and Pfeiffer H had told Palmer what parts of DEC Compaq wasn't interested in. So it wasF a win because Palmer had found a way to offload an undesirable portionB of DEC, one which was bleeding mucho money because DEC had refusedF FABbing contracts for folks such as AMD and the FAB was way underused.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:44:20 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>< Subject: Re: Intel, AMD CPUs nothing more than alpha clones!> Message-ID: <8%cBf.188536$vl2.20926@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote:  / > and by clone I mean cheap clone with bits and 4 > pieces of alpha technology that still fail to make$ > them as good as the alpha chip ...  H With AMD supposedly going to expose the guts of the chip to programmers J and escape the X64 instruction set maybe it will get even more Alpha like.   --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:37:11 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.net # Subject: Re: LK463 (and Windows XP) * Message-ID: <HfaBf.8391$Fb3.4782@trnddc08>   VAXman- wrote:K > If you happen upon a driver for the Mac (OS X) which will allow me to use  > the LK463, do let me know.  I Brian, I asked the question in the first place so I could create a driver 	 for OS X.  --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:33:53 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG# Subject: Re: LK463 (and Windows XP) 0 Message-ID: <00A503DC.68823B77@SendSpamHere.ORG>  F In article <HfaBf.8391$Fb3.4782@trnddc08>, dittman@dittman.net writes: >  >  >VAXman- wrote: L >> If you happen upon a driver for the Mac (OS X) which will allow me to use >> the LK463, do let me know.  > J >Brian, I asked the question in the first place so I could create a driver
 >for OS X.  I I was out of touch for a while.  Week in LA and then off to the UK.  Talk  about being (time) zoned out.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:01:56 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> = Subject: Re: Mozilla: bookmarks and other stuff disappearing? , Message-ID: <43D53630.6B45884F@teksavvy.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: H > I don't think that's the case since the history (pull-down list in theH > URL box) is there.  Sometimes the bookmarks are gone and sometimes the; > startpage isn't correct, but the history is always there.   @ Check your logicals. You may have some conditional definition ofD logicals (network, interactive etc) which doesn't apply with certainD invocations of your browser and it then looks in a different default% directory for your bookmark file etc.    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:33:16 +0000 (UTC) - From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) = Subject: Re: Mozilla: bookmarks and other stuff disappearing? . Message-ID: <dr3eic$ndn$3@newslocal.mitre.org>   helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes in article <dr38bi$sok$1@online.de> dated Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:47:14 +0000 (UTC):H >I don't think that's the case since the history (pull-down list in the H >URL box) is there.  Sometimes the bookmarks are gone and sometimes the : >startpage isn't correct, but the history is always there.  I This happens to me a lot in MacOS.  I wonder if Mozilla is finding my old I Netscape profile or something, because it does not happen on my newer Mac # which never had Netscape installed.   0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:39:20 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   Subject: New Pres at AMD, ex DEC( Message-ID: <ops3uz7urnzgicya@hyrrokkin>  J The article says he was co architect of 21264, but he has been more than   10 years with AMD   D http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=177102620    
 John Walko	 	  EE Times (01/23/2006 6:28 AM EST) 	   	 J LONDON — Dirk Meyer has been promoted to president and chief operating  L officer at Advanced Micro Devices Inc, and will manage the microprocessors  J group in tandem with Hector Ruiz, who relinquishes the role of president  * but remains CEO and chairman of the board.  D Meyer moves up from president and chief operating officer of AMD's  / Microprocessor Solutions Sector (MSS) business.   J Meyer, who is 44, has been at AMD for just over a decade. In 1996 he was  I named director of engineering for the Athlon microprocessor development   F program in Austin, Texas. Three years later, he was promoted to vice  G president of engineering for the Computation Products Group (CPG) and   H became vice president of CPG in 2001. A year later he was named senior  6 vice president of CPG and an executive officer of AMD.  I In 2004, he was promoted to executive vice president of CPG and in 2005   > was appointed president and chief operating officer of AMD's    Microprocessor Solutions Sector.  E "Dirk has played an essential role in AMD's rise to the position of   H technology and innovation leader in the microprocessor industry," said  G Ruiz. "He has made amazing progress with our microprocessor business,   N making it the envy of our industry.” Meyer said in a statement: "During my  K time at AMD, we've overcome many hurdles to become a driving force in the   G microprocessor industry. Still, more challenges and opportunities are   J ahead of us, and I plan to help AMD capitalize on those opportunities to  D change the competitive dynamics of the microprocessor industry and   continue our sustained growth.  K "My new position also gives Hector more bandwidth to focus on leading the    company as CEO."  G Before joining AMD, Meyer worked at Digital Equipment Corporation for   C nearly a decade and was co-architect of the Alpha 21064 and 21264   B microprocessors, and before that he worked at AMD archrival Intel.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 19:13:51 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com $ Subject: Re: New Pres at AMD, ex DECB Message-ID: <1138072431.327832.68480@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  ( so Palmer conspired with him to sell AMD, whatever alpha technology rights they needed/ to create their semi alpha clone ... and Palmer E was rewarded with a cushy job and fat paycheck ... it all adds up now  ...    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 14:32:40 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com 1 Subject: Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator C Message-ID: <1138055560.779936.254180@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   1 what good is an emulator if it runs on an os that 1 any hacker can get into and delete your emulation  software and data?  . That is not a solution for business either ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:11:23 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator , Message-ID: <43D58CB0.A39B88AE@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:D > If the OS is not running TCP/IP, and is not accessing any externalD > interfaces, such as an Ethernet interface, then please explain howF > anything, not just hackers, can access the OS for nefarious or other
 > activities?   * (just watched 24... so excuse the mindset)  = Simple answer. A system controlling air conditioning and fire B suppression could be compromised if you added some gizmo next to aA sensor to falsely trigger an alarm, lock the computer room doors, G release the fire fighting gas and suffocate an important dignitary that G was visiting the computer room at the time. So even if not connected to E the internet, it could still be compromised, especially if you have a  mole working from the inside.    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 19:11:02 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com 1 Subject: Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator B Message-ID: <1138072262.355908.75390@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  G emulation kills a processor ... I once spent the worst month of my life @ on an AS400 doing system3x emulation for cobol and it killed 50%C of the processor ... add in three crashes that were never explained * in one month and you had a real winner ...  D ok Mr smarth mouth, what happens if your turned off os crashes, then? vms crashes, unless vms emulator can somehow keep on going like F the enegizer bunny w/o the underlying os ... good luck on that one ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:18:16 -0500 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> 1 Subject: Re: running OpenVMS/Alpha on a simulator 8 Message-ID: <I%gBf.7915$ve.198825@news20.bellglobal.com>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:43D58CB0.A39B88AE@teksavvy.com... > Dave Froble wrote:E >> If the OS is not running TCP/IP, and is not accessing any external E >> interfaces, such as an Ethernet interface, then please explain how G >> anything, not just hackers, can access the OS for nefarious or other  >> activities? > , > (just watched 24... so excuse the mindset) > ? > Simple answer. A system controlling air conditioning and fire D > suppression could be compromised if you added some gizmo next to aC > sensor to falsely trigger an alarm, lock the computer room doors, I > release the fire fighting gas and suffocate an important dignitary that I > was visiting the computer room at the time. So even if not connected to G > the internet, it could still be compromised, especially if you have a  > mole working from the inside.  >  > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)   " Were you watching "24" or "Alias"?  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html     ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 15:21:02 -05003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> ! Subject: Re: SimH V3.5-2 released . Message-ID: <mdd3bjen1ap.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  3 Bob Supnik <bob.supnik@sicortex.nospam.com> writes:   . > On the web at http://simh.trailing-edge.com.  H > V3.5-2 has a number of bug fixes in the VAX, -11, -10, and -8, as wellF > as the first release of the VAX-11/780 simulator (without Ethernet).= > The 780 has booted and run VMS 7.2, as a verification test.   K Interesting, since 6.2 is the last version to support the 780, according to ! the HP website.  Now I'm excited!    --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:03:53 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ! Subject: Re: SimH V3.5-2 released 0 Message-ID: <11tah4qseemss6b@corp.supernews.com>   Rich Alderson wrote:5 > Bob Supnik <bob.supnik@sicortex.nospam.com> writes:  >  > . >>On the web at http://simh.trailing-edge.com. >  > H >>V3.5-2 has a number of bug fixes in the VAX, -11, -10, and -8, as wellF >>as the first release of the VAX-11/780 simulator (without Ethernet).= >>The 780 has booted and run VMS 7.2, as a verification test.  >  > M > Interesting, since 6.2 is the last version to support the 780, according to # > the HP website.  Now I'm excited!  >   E As stated many times, supported and works are not the same, or to be  : more accureate, unsupported and not work are not the same.  G I'd guess one of the major reasons why support was dropped was getting  G rid of 9-track tape distributions, as well as not having to qualify on   such old hardware.  D I'd be highly surprised if the latest VAX/VMS didn't run on any VAX I hardware, since stripping out drivers and such could cause more problems   than just leaving them intact.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:57:00 -0500 2 From: "Timothy Stark" <fsword7_nospam@comcast.net>! Subject: Re: SimH V3.5-2 released 0 Message-ID: <6dCdnbX0xpXH5kjeRVn-vQ@comcast.com>  A "Rich Alderson" <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote in message  ( news:mdd3bjen1ap.fsf@panix5.panix.com...5 > Bob Supnik <bob.supnik@sicortex.nospam.com> writes:  > / >> On the web at http://simh.trailing-edge.com.  > I >> V3.5-2 has a number of bug fixes in the VAX, -11, -10, and -8, as well G >> as the first release of the VAX-11/780 simulator (without Ethernet). > >> The 780 has booted and run VMS 7.2, as a verification test. > K > Interesting, since 6.2 is the last version to support the 780, according   > to# > the HP website.  Now I'm excited!   G Hmmm. I was able boot VMS 7.2 on Bob's VAX-11/780 emulator without any  H problems.  I still am looking for older version of VMS prior 5.4 but no 9 available. :-(  I have only VMS versions from 5.4 to 7.3.    Thanks!  Tim    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:49:43 -0800 0 From: glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>! Subject: Re: SimH V3.5-2 released 0 Message-ID: <Dbydnb9sddaMXUjeRVn-gQ@comcast.com>   Timothy Stark wrote: (snip)  I > Hmmm. I was able boot VMS 7.2 on Bob's VAX-11/780 emulator without any  J > problems.  I still am looking for older version of VMS prior 5.4 but no ; > available. :-(  I have only VMS versions from 5.4 to 7.3.   = I thought someone had one in the v1 or v2 range, but I am not  so sure by now.    -- glen    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:50:02 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> F Subject: Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance?, Message-ID: <43D53366.10B39CCB@teksavvy.com>   comp.os.vms@hotmail.com wrote:  F > It was suggested that JFs "tinfoil hat" commentary had an historical > precedent from the PDP days.  2 Out of curiosity, where does one get "tin foil" ?   D I looked in the supermarket, and all I could find was aluminium foilH from canada, and aluminum foil from USA. (obviously, the US version is a subset of real aluminium :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:10:33 -0500 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>F Subject: Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance?. Message-ID: <43D4F1E9.6140.348422FA@localhost>  ) On 23 Jan 2006 at 7:51, Tom Linden wrote: F > Until the time Clinton left Office it was a VAX and the applications > were written in PL/I     [Shameless Plug Alert (tm)]   D The US House of Representatives email system runs on VAX.  Or, more  exactly, CHARON-VAX.  % [Sorry, just couldn't help myself...]   
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------8 Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com) "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:09:44 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> F Subject: Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance?0 Message-ID: <11tahfpf0vad5db@corp.supernews.com>   Stanley F. Quayle wrote:+ > On 23 Jan 2006 at 7:51, Tom Linden wrote:  > F >>Until the time Clinton left Office it was a VAX and the applications >>were written in PL/I   >  >  > [Shameless Plug Alert (tm)]  > F > The US House of Representatives email system runs on VAX.  Or, more  > exactly, CHARON-VAX. > ' > [Sorry, just couldn't help myself...]   D Everyone keeps talking about not being authorized to use government G customers in marketing.  Are you authorized to reveal that information?   I Hello ....  Hello ....  Are you there ?  Did the homeland security thugs   already cart you away?  F Just curious, are they using All-In-One (make JF's day) or some other 	 solution?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:57:33 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> F Subject: Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance?, Message-ID: <43D55141.F9789829@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:G > Just curious, are they using All-In-One (make JF's day) or some other  > solution?   G I've been told that all-in-1 is still in use. My guess is that the VAXs ( are still required to run Message Router   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:06:26 -0500 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>F Subject: Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance?/ Message-ID: <43D50D12.28976.34EE3B02@localhost>   + On 23 Jan 2006 at 16:09, Dave Froble wrote: E > Everyone keeps talking about not being authorized to use government  > customers in marketing.   . Wasn't my customer -- it was another reseller.  G > Just curious, are they using All-In-One (make JF's day) or some other  > solution?    Actually, I haven't a clue.   
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------8 Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com) "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:41:54 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>F Subject: Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance?> Message-ID: <SYcBf.188528$vl2.47287@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   Dave Froble wrote:     > H > Just curious, are they using All-In-One (make JF's day) or some other  > solution?   E Take care. You're getting close to JF's secret identity as the NSA's  J email administrator :-) It's amazing what you can do with a Microvax II...  H Hey if MI6 can spy on the Ruskies with a fake rock anything is possible.  3 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4638136.stm B http://us.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/23/uk.russia.row/index.html  L Tin foil hats on folks. Obviously not Aluminium as you Yanks can't spell it. --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:00:35 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> F Subject: Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance?0 Message-ID: <11tanvm437mmr60@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: > G >>Just curious, are they using All-In-One (make JF's day) or some other  >>solution?  >  > I > I've been told that all-in-1 is still in use. My guess is that the VAXs * > are still required to run Message Router  B And since such does not have 64 bits as a requirement, there's no = telling how long this will remain a perfectly valid solution.   H Don't ya have a soft spot for solutions that have a life greater than 6  months?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:13:44 -0500 * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>F Subject: Re: Sixty (six-zero) VMS engineers *with* security clearance?, Message-ID: <43d56329$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  K Let's put it this way, I was still working on UIS at the time, so this well  predates BC.    . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message" news:ops3t8zudbzgicya@hyrrokkin...H > On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:54:14 -0500, FredK <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> > wrote: > J > > IAS was a RSX11D derivative IIRC.  I have no insight into any movement ofK > > people from its development group to the gov (I was in the field at the G > > time, and not in engineering).  I do know that the white house mail 
 > > systemB > > once ran on IAS - as someone I worked with a clearance and IAS
 background' > > occasionally was called on by them.  > > K > Until the time Clinton left Office it was a VAX and the applications were  > written in PL/I  > > . > > <comp.os.vms@hotmail.com> wrote in messageA > > news:1138022375.274556.110640@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  > >> Folks,  > >>. > >> This topic came up in conversation today. > >>I > >> It was suggested that JFs "tinfoil hat" commentary had an historical ! > >> precedent from the PDP days.  > >>L > >> Apparently a PDP OS called IAS (I am not old enough to have heard of itF > >> apparently) went south and the 5-sided boys just hired the entire > >> development crew from DEC.  > >>K > >> Is anyone out there older than me and remembers this as a true event ?  > >>I > >> Either way, I suspect the client in CA/NM was USAF, and JFs comments > > >> may turn out to be prescient.  Any further news on this ? > = > Rolm built a militarized version, maybe a connection there?  > >> > >> Dr. Dweeb > >> > >  > >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 13:44:34 -0800( From: "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com>0 Subject: Telnet over WAN latency troubleshootingB Message-ID: <1138052674.225105.89430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>  B We've got a couple of sites that are losing their longstanding 32KF leased line connections using MUXserver 90s and DECmux 308/316s.  ThatF service has been working for years, but the area telco is skyrocketingF the price to the point that, when tied to the inability to support the3 aging hardware, its just not reasonable to keep it.   E The customer has ADSL circuits (256K up, 1.5M down) at each location, G with the same ISP, and all in the same region.  Traceroutes between the E three sites indicate traffic does not leave the ISP's infrastructure.   > Speed tests indicate they are getting around 210K up and 1200KF downaround noontime to various speed test sites; we have not been ableC to test other times because two of the three locations don't have a F computer at them, just a DECserver 90M+  (DNAS V3.2) and VT terminals.? One site to site test from each remote to the central Alpha was D performed that showed about the same throughput, but we can't repeatG that test (the peecee used was the installer's notebook).   The central F site has the host system, a DS10 running VMS V7.3-1 and TCPIP V5.3 ECO+ 4, all patched up on class 1 and 2 patches.   C The two remote locations have no other internet usage.  The central D location has moderate PC usage, but the problem occurs even when all$ the central PC users have shut down.  E The sites are tied together using Sonicwall TZ170 firewalls, standard G firmware, and firewall-to-firewall VPN tunnels.  We use these firewalls F at numerous locations and have not had problems like this in the past.  E We're getting terrible latency on interactive telnet sessions.  There E are no locateable problems on any of the LANs (per the various system E and device counters).  Firewall and tunnel MTUs are set at 1404 bytes F due to underlying PPPoE service provided by the telco, and we've triedG using tunnel bandwidth reservation and service based rules (for telnet) B bandwidth reservation without any impact; we've also tried the oldB culprit SET PROTO TCP/NODELAY with no perceived change in behaviorD (didn't expect any with that one, though; it was just worth a shot).  D Pinging from the Alpha to the remote decservers (through the tunnel)B with 1200 byte packets I see zero packet loss except for peak timeD usage (~1PM to 6PM) where it rises to up to 5% (rare, 3% every day).F Pinging to the remote DSL router LAN port (the gateway address for theF firewall) I see about 1% less packet loss.  Ping times are fine either< way; about 120 - 140ms (small pings get through in 50-60ms).  E I still think its the ISP's problem, given the measurable packet loss E in the afternoons, but we've already bounced off their tech support 4 E times (they refer it up to Bellsouth, where it goes to places unknown  and never returns).   @ I need to find out if there's any way to get telnet to work moreC efficiently over the link we have now.  I don't see anything in the B DNAS documentation that appears useful but I'm still digging.  Are= their any parameters in DNAS or TCPIP services for optimizing B interactive (telnet) service over what is apparently a high (or at& least sporadically high) latency link?   Thanks for any info.   Rich CCS    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:12:02 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) 4 Subject: Re: Telnet over WAN latency troubleshooting( Message-ID: <dr3ut2$kvq$1@pcls4.std.com>  J I think what's happening is the PPPoE connection gets dropped/disconnectedH and then the modem has to "log in" again and reestablish the connection.: Perhaps the modem lights may show  that this is happening.  C You could get a non PPPoE connection, but it may require a separate A phone line and cost more (I'm thinking of SDSL, where up and down  speeds are the same).    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 17:28:06 -0800( From: "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com>4 Subject: Re: Telnet over WAN latency troubleshootingC Message-ID: <1138066085.928996.104120@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Rick, B      periods where echo lags up to 12 seconds (worst case) and 3-6B seconds (afternoon average) behind typing, with very bursty echoesG (user types several words, gets one char echo, then next char echo then G a burst of almost all the typed characters, then another single echo... A etc).  Usually this corresponds with (when testing) 4 - 5% packet D losses, regardless of the size of the ping packets being used.  PingF testing does not have any apparent effect on user response, so I don'tD think the bandwidth is being crowded so close that the pings matter.  A      We have tested telnet access both through the VPN tunnel and D outside it (by opening a telnet hole at the central location for theG remote location's firewall WAN IP and shutting down the tunnel) with no D difference in behaviour, so we don't think the tunnel overhead is an issue   C      Can't do the TCP nodelay at both ends.  There is only one host E (alpha) at the central location; the two remotes have DECservers with A DNAS and terminals only.  I don't see any command line option for D getting that level of control of TCPIP settings on the DECservers soC far but I haven't managed to actually do all the research yet (darn & phones would not stop today... grr...)  D      Right now my packet trace/ping/diagnostic ability is totally atA the central location with the Alpha.  No intelligent hosts at the C remotes until someone makes the trip out with a laptop, and I don't G have a schedule for that.  DNAS only provides up/down ping testing with 	 no stats.   F      The ISP hasn't been helpful so far.  This is a circuit with PPPoEB underpinnings because nothing else is available at these locationsE short of a T1 that is beyond the budget for this customer.  It may be 7 worth banging on them again though; we'll see tomorrow.    Rich   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:50:07 GMT % From: Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hp.com> 4 Subject: Re: Telnet over WAN latency troubleshooting2 Message-ID: <jJfBf.2010$Gk4.2008@news.cpqcorp.net>  ' Rich Jordan <jordan@ccs4vms.com> wrote: B > We're getting terrible latency on interactive telnet sessions.     Can you quantify that a bit?  @ > we've also tried the old culprit SET PROTO TCP/NODELAY with no@ > perceived change in behavior (didn't expect any with that one,$ > though; it was just worth a shot).  D Was that done on both ends?  Do you happen to have a packet trace of' one of the bad latency telnet sessions?   F > Pinging from the Alpha to the remote decservers (through the tunnel)D > with 1200 byte packets I see zero packet loss except for peak timeF > usage (~1PM to 6PM) where it rises to up to 5% (rare, 3% every day).D > Pinging to the remote DSL router LAN port (the gateway address forE > the firewall) I see about 1% less packet loss.  Ping times are fine E > either way; about 120 - 140ms (small pings get through in 50-60ms).   > If we assume that single characters are going-out as their ownE segments, and being echoed by the remote, we can take the 50-60 ms as B the "no loss" time and calculate the chances of that happening as:  $ p == loss probability = 0.01 to 0.05* P packet not lost == (1-p) so 0.99 to 0.95  F for a keystroke exchange that becomes 0.95^2 or 0.9, or 0.1 that there@ was at least one retransmission.  most TCP stacks have a minimum) retransmission timer of 500 milliseconds:    So, the average becomes   C 0.9 * 60 + 0.1 * 500 (I'm not trying to handle the cases where both $ the keystroke and its echo are lost)   or  B 54 + 50 = 94 ms, which IIRC starts to be just on the hairy edge of. upsetting to someone who is a decent typist.    B > I need to find out if there's any way to get telnet to work moreE > efficiently over the link we have now.  I don't see anything in the D > DNAS documentation that appears useful but I'm still digging.  Are? > their any parameters in DNAS or TCPIP services for optimizing D > interactive (telnet) service over what is apparently a high (or at( > least sporadically high) latency link?  F I'd double check that when you set tcp_nodelay it was on both ends andE actually took - via a packet trace.  After that, you _might_ consider A lowering the minimum retransmission timeout if you "know" that it / remains above what one might expect for an RTT.   F Might also see if the stuff connecting to the ISP network has some wayE of prioritizing small segments (assuming the telnet traffic is mostly 6 small segments) over large stuff like HTTP or FTP etc.  
 rick jones9 working off basic networking rather than vms knowledge...  --  = portable adj, code that compiles under more than one compiler F these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)D feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:50:37 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 4 Subject: Re: Telnet over WAN latency troubleshooting, Message-ID: <43D587D4.9FA60E74@teksavvy.com>   Rich Jordan wrote:F > Pinging from the Alpha to the remote decservers (through the tunnel)D > with 1200 byte packets I see zero packet loss except for peak time  D Telnet rarely sends 1200 byte packets. You can however put TELNET inF LINE MODE where there the client collects data and provides local echoF and sends a line to the remote host isntead of character by character.  F This works when you have command line interface, but not when you have( character cell full screen applications.  G > I still think its the ISP's problem, given the measurable packet loss G > in the afternoons, but we've already bounced off their tech support 4   E When you have problems, if you do a traceroute can you see an obvious . bottleneck between 2 routers along the route ?  B If they are always the same, then you can signal that to your ISP.  > If the bottleneck is between your border router and your ISP'sF customer-facing router, it means that the line between you and the ISP is overloaded.    F Not sure how it works in the USA, but in Canada, the telco handles theH DSL line between the CO and the customer, and from the DSLAM, it goes toD the BAS (access server) which then uses ATM circuits to deliver yourF packets to yor ISP. The BAS is usually in a central central office andC combines traffic from many DSLAMs in various regional/suburban COs.     F If the telco oversubscribes circuits between the DSLAM and the BAS, itB will affect performance and your ISP won't be able to see anythingF wrong. However, your ISP must them complain to the TELCO and if enoughG local customers complain, then the telco will look into capacity issues E and may upgrade the ATM circuits between your DLSAM and BAS to handle  the additional capacity.    H If you could tunnel DECNET over TCPIP, you might be able to use SET HOSTL (CTERM protocol) which is much more efficient for character cell interfaces.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:20:00 +0100 3 From: Michael Unger <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com> < Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha", Message-ID: <43kr4fF1o30h2U1@individual.net>  ) On 2006-01-23 18:13, "John Reagan" wrote:   @ > I found it rather limited and very inaccurate.  I suspect the I > consultant's arms were waving fast enough to actually lift him off the  D > ground.  For instance, he didn't mention that actually designing, H > debugging, building EV8s in quantity would require massive amounts of D > money that Compaq didn't want to spend in light of the promise of @         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                 ^^^^^^^H > Itanium performance.  Now, it might be easier with 20-20 hindsight to I > pick at the decision, but money, die-size, process-size, etc. were all  ( > part of the decision from what I know. >  > [...]   C When the "Alpha" processor was introduced customers were invited to G participate in roadshows (talking about Germany at the beginning of the @ 90s, but probably elsewhere too) where "Roadmaps" were presentedE covering 20 to 25 years -- and promising three orders of magnitude in G processor performance gain: a factor of ten for each of clock speed-up, E process shrink and multi-threading/multi-core, IIRC. (I've never seen ; these roadmaps or related material published on a website.)   : Not *wanting* to spend money is a totally different issue.   Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. 5 My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:46:35 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> < Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha"* Message-ID: <43D53298.247DAF@teksavvy.com>   Alan Greig wrote:  >  > Robert Boers wrote:  >  > > Interesting article:; > > http://www.digitimes.com/bits_chips/a20060123PR200.html  > # > Unfortunately he is 100% correct.   D While I have to agree with the bulk of his article, (and he stole myH "murder of Alpha" expression :-), I do question his statement that AlphaG engineers were concentrating on sheer clock speed and MhZ (comparing to B Pentium). I had always bee under the impression that Alpha was notF concentrating on mere MhZ but rather on doing as much work as possible for each clock cycle.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:15:31 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> < Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha"0 Message-ID: <11tahqkfk70g53e@corp.supernews.com>   John Reagan wrote: > Alan Greig wrote:  >  >> >> >> Robert Boers wrote: >> >>> Interesting article:; >>> http://www.digitimes.com/bits_chips/a20060123PR200.html  >> >> > @ > I found it rather limited and very inaccurate.  I suspect the I > consultant's arms were waving fast enough to actually lift him off the  D > ground.  For instance, he didn't mention that actually designing, H > debugging, building EV8s in quantity would require massive amounts of D > money that Compaq didn't want to spend in light of the promise of H > Itanium performance.  Now, it might be easier with 20-20 hindsight to I > pick at the decision, but money, die-size, process-size, etc. were all  ( > part of the decision from what I know.  E A very interesting statement, seeing as how some have suggested that  E Compaq lied to customers with their promises about Alpha.  One might  L suspect that the statement confirms that Compaq knowingly lied to customers.  % But what the hell, what's a few lies?   F Then there's Intel with all their itanic promises.  In some ways they  make Compaq's lies rather mild.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:17:36 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> < Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha"0 Message-ID: <11tahufq4hs51bd@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Alan Greig wrote:  >  >>Robert Boers wrote:  >> >> >>>Interesting article: : >>>http://www.digitimes.com/bits_chips/a20060123PR200.html >># >>Unfortunately he is 100% correct.  >  > F > While I have to agree with the bulk of his article, (and he stole myJ > "murder of Alpha" expression :-), I do question his statement that AlphaI > engineers were concentrating on sheer clock speed and MhZ (comparing to D > Pentium). I had always bee under the impression that Alpha was notH > concentrating on mere MhZ but rather on doing as much work as possible > for each clock cycle.   A And you're correct.  What they did was be very careful to NOT do  6 anything to restrict clock speed, pipelines, and such.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:40:20 -0500 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> < Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha"8 Message-ID: <9XcBf.7742$ve.165703@news20.bellglobal.com>  9 "Robert Boers" <r_boers@softresint.com> wrote in message  $ news:43d4a341$1@news.deckpoint.ch... > Interesting article:9 > http://www.digitimes.com/bits_chips/a20060123PR200.html  >  > - Rob   K I've said it before and I'll say it again. The non-technical bozos running  I Compaq at that time did not know what they possessed in Alpha. If people  I with a passion for technology were running Compaq at that time (eg. Bill  M Gates, Larry Ellison, Scott McNeally, Steve Wozniak or Jobs, Mike Lazaridis,  I Bill Hewlett, David Packard, or even Ken Olsen (even though he initially  5 rejected Alpha)) this technology would not have died.   H Hell, If anyone had a reason to kill of a chip, it should have been Sun M killing the SPARC. They probably can't believe that Alpha was "put down like   a homeless dog".  	     #####   M On a different note, I currently in the middle of Robert Colwell's 2006 book  K titled "The Pentium Chronicles". Although the reader should know something  I about computers in order to understand every sentence, this book is more  I about "dealing with people" than it is about Pentium technology. I'm not  L saying that Intel doesn't make mistakes, but I'm half way through this book J at it seems like the upper management people at Intel generally listen to J their technical people. I can only suspect that the same thing happens at  IBM.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.6 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/alpha_diary.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:03:58 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> < Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha"0 Message-ID: <11tao5v81fcis53@corp.supernews.com>   John Reagan wrote: > @ > I found it rather limited and very inaccurate.  I suspect the I > consultant's arms were waving fast enough to actually lift him off the  D > ground.  For instance, he didn't mention that actually designing, H > debugging, building EV8s in quantity would require massive amounts of D > money that Compaq didn't want to spend in light of the promise of H > Itanium performance.  Now, it might be easier with 20-20 hindsight to I > pick at the decision, but money, die-size, process-size, etc. were all  ( > part of the decision from what I know.  E Yes, it's so easy that I cannot resist.  Anybody care to compare the  D worst case scenarios with Alpha EV8 vs the actual costs to get that 0 nitch product, the itanic, to where it is today?   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:54:15 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>< Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha"2 Message-ID: <H0eBf.2008$Gk4.1791@news.cpqcorp.net>   Dave Froble wrote:   > G > A very interesting statement, seeing as how some have suggested that  G > Compaq lied to customers with their promises about Alpha.  One might  D > suspect that the statement confirms that Compaq knowingly lied to  > customers. > ' > But what the hell, what's a few lies?  > H > Then there's Intel with all their itanic promises.  In some ways they ! > make Compaq's lies rather mild.  >   G Oh give me a break.  Do not take my statement about the article posted  I and twist it into some confirmation of a conspricy.  Adjust the ALUMINUM   foil hat please. :-)  H All I said was that the article omitted several additional factors that # seemed to impact Compaq's decision.   H As for how much money would it take for EV8 vs Itanium?  I do know not. B   Firstly, nobody built EV8 so you'd have to go into an alternate H dimension.  Second, for Itanium, you'll have to ask Intel.  Personally, G the total dollar figure isn't all that important.  From Compaq's point  E of view it probably was "do I spend OUR money" or get Intel to spend  G "their money"?  But then again, I'm just a poor little compiler writer  $ who isn't on the board of directors.   --   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:23:38 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha"= Message-ID: <JLqdnZ4IDtQW7kjeRVn-rg@metrocastcablevision.com>    John Reagan wrote: > Alan Greig wrote:  >> >> >> Robert Boers wrote: >> >>> Interesting article:; >>> http://www.digitimes.com/bits_chips/a20060123PR200.html  >> >  > I found it rather limited    That I can agree with.     and very inaccurate.  I Care to be more specific?  While some of the material struck me as a bit  G fuzzy and/or a stretch (such as the assertion that a desktop user base  I was necessary for survival during the period in question - or even now),  G I didn't see any outright errors (well, suggesting that DEC might have  G been better off not being sold to Compaq may qualify as one, unless it  D tacitly assumed that Palmer would have been given the boot as well).      I suspect theI > consultant's arms were waving fast enough to actually lift him off the  	 > ground.   I Once again, I invite specifics:  otherwise, it's your own arms which are   waving rather desperately.  ;    For instance, he didn't mention that actually designing, H > debugging, building EV8s in quantity would require massive amounts of D > money that Compaq didn't want to spend in light of the promise of  > Itanium performance.  F He probably didn't mention it because it was not true.  The amount of D money needed to continue Alpha development was hardly 'massive' (at F least compared to the $1+ billion in system profit that Alpha systems I generated annually), and was stated clearly at the time by Rich Marcello  I (who was also the source for the profit figures I just mentioned):  $150  A million annually, which may also have included the remaining EV7  H development that continued for another 18 months (Winkler's higher $300 B million figure mentioned back then included even more surrounding ? non-chip-related infrastructure that was not cut when EV8 was).   2    Now, it might be easier with 20-20 hindsight to > pick at the decision,   I 'Easier' is of course relative:  some of us had no difficulty whatsoever  D criticizing it at the time, and have turned out to have been rather / close to 100% right in the reservations we had.   G Of course, Compaq's own detailed 1999 white paper pointing out Alpha's  I clear superiority to Itanic was helpful in that regard, and qualifies as   even farther foresight.   2   but money, die-size, process-size, etc. were all( > part of the decision from what I know.  F Exactly what do you 'know' from personal involvement, and what do you H merely think that you 'know' from having believed what others have told I you?  Several Compaq engineers and managers for whom I otherwise have at  H least moderate respect made fools of themselves at the time by choosing I to lend their own credibility to portions of the Compaq party line which  I soon were exposed (by statements directly from the Alpha team themselves  I as well as by Compaq's own financial reports) as outright lies:  perhaps  4 you've just been a bit slow to have gotten the word.  E And *die size*?  Surely you jest!  Itanic is the fattest pig ever to  G wallow down the 'pike, in significant part because of its inability to  @ achieve competitive performance in many areas without humongous A quantities of fast on-chip cache (Alpha neatly side-stepped such  F problems - as well as achieving major scalability gains - three years @ ago by incorporating fast on-chip memory-controller and routing E facilities, whereas it will be at least another two years yet before  H Itanic acquires them - and a five-year advantage is an eternity in this 
 business).   >  >  >>I >> Eckhard Pfeiffer was fired because he actually wanted to do something  ' >> with Alpha and the DEC product line.  >> > E > Say whaaaa!?!?!  So you think Eckhard was fired for sitting around  > > trying to expand Alpha sales?  That isn't how I remember it.  G I'm forced once again to ask exactly what you 'remember' from personal  G involvement vs. what you 'remember' from having been told it by people  I who may have been as clueless as you were (or possibly less clueless but  G also less forthright).  The word at the time was that Pfeiffer got the  F boot in large part because the BoD (and Ben Rosen in particular) were H unhappy about the deteriorating PC side of the business and wanted full I concentration there rather than in the areas that had far greater profit  
 potential.  G So while I'm not familiar with Alan's specific source for the Capellas  F statement, it's entirely credible based both upon how events unfolded ) and upon what was rumored as they did so.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:24:33 GMT ( From: Alan Greig <greigaln@netscape.net>< Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha"; Message-ID: <llfBf.10668$mu.2771@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>    Bill Todd wrote:  I > So while I'm not familiar with Alan's specific source for the Capellas  H > statement, it's entirely credible based both upon how events unfolded + > and upon what was rumored as they did so.   D Actually I can't find a reference, with a quick search, for the Ben G Rosen Alpha comment and it's possible I'm wrong in making the claim he  ; had said it fairly recently. If so apologies for the error.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:07:38 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> < Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha", Message-ID: <43D58BCF.7E20AACE@teksavvy.com>   Neil Rieck wrote: L > I've said it before and I'll say it again. The non-technical bozos running@ > Compaq at that time did not know what they possessed in Alpha.    @ Yes they did know. Which is why they endeavoured to kill it. PutB yourself in the context of Intel's rtelationship with vendors, putE yourself in a context where Compaq had lost its edge and needed every H possible advantage to beat Dell and Gateway and HP and everyone else, it1 could not jeoperdize its relationship with Intel.   E Alpha was making that IA64 look like a 2000 version of the all mighty E microvax II. Remove alpha from the market and that ia64 thing doesn't  look so bad.  H Gerstner's book clearly state that Curly had hired investment bankers to, find a buyer for Compaq early in his tenure.  C So the board probably figured that without a real leader to rebuild F Compaq, the only way was for Compaq to find a buyer. As soon as HP wasF identified as the potential buyer, dropping the stuff that HP wouldn't% want was probably Curly's main task.    G In it interesting to look back at Compaq's attemps to kill VMS in 2000, G something which it had to forget because the revenus were too important  for Compaq to let go of VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:16:55 -0500 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> < Subject: Re: The processor wars Part 1, "The death of Alpha"8 Message-ID: <s_gBf.7913$ve.199028@news20.bellglobal.com>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  & news:43D58BCF.7E20AACE@teksavvy.com... > Neil Rieck wrote: F >> I've said it before and I'll say it again. The non-technical bozos 
 >> runningA >> Compaq at that time did not know what they possessed in Alpha.  >  > > > Yes they did know. Which is why they endeavoured to kill it. >   M Sorry but this statement doesn't make sense. Why would anyone knowingly kill  ; off a superior technology that they would be in control of?   E Curly and Carly were non-technical people who had no passion for (or  M understanding of) the technologies that their companies produced. There were  H many problems with SPARC (remember the cache whiskers?) but McNealy and M company possessed the requisite amount of passion for their products so they  L refused to give in to pressures from the peanut gallery. Look at the amount H of junk MS markets yet Gates hasn't lost any passion for his technology L either (but having a money machine like that might make you love that stuff F no matter what). I'm not sure there is very much over-all passion for I technology at IBM but management there knows not to touch the goose that   lays the golden egg.  	     #####   I One thing I disagreed with in the article was the concept of requiring a  F personal computer implementation of the chip in question. Last time I J looked, top-of-the-line from chips from IBM and SUN were not available in I PCs (unless you are counting some of the smaller workstations) yet those  5 companies haven't decided to kill off their products.   	     #####   L If Intel cancels Itanium, HPaq will be standing there with a stupid look on I their faces having realized that they voluntarily killed off PA-RISC and  H Alpha for the same reasons that Intel will use for killing Itanium. Too  expensive; no market.     
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:10:13 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>/ Subject: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page + Message-ID: <43D59A95.1C4C3918@comcast.net>   E Well, I went ahead and did it. I finally got a round TUIT and made an C Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page. The link is in the modified  .sig, below.  " Go ahead and submit your comments.  B I tried to make it positive and forward-thinking. Let me know if IG succeeded. If you want to comment privately, how to demung the Reply-to  should be obvious.  C Yes, I know it looks like the others: *BLEAH*. I'm DCL coder, not a E website designer. Anyone who wants to submit an improved form of this G page is welcome to do so. How to demung the Reply-to should be obvious.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 15:17:07 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! 3 Message-ID: <Xrrwb0ZBCHfO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   N In article <ops3t9qqrnzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:  7 > So it is not possible to use F and G float with Java?   8     It is a violation of the spec (via Sun's copyright).   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2006 14:21:51 -0800 From: "Arie" <arie@zeepost.nl>/ Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! C Message-ID: <1138054911.472498.228200@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   D Emulators International is listening too, and we have good news: The? first Alpha hardware virtualization software running OpenVMS is + available. You can read more about it here: . www.personalalpha.com or www.alphaemulator.com  ! We hope you like this development   
 Best regards, 
 Arie de Groot  Emulators International  The Netherlands  www.emulatorsinternational.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:05:35 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> / Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! 0 Message-ID: <11tao8v6thke4c6@corp.supernews.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:P > In article <ops3t9qqrnzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: >  > 7 >>So it is not possible to use F and G float with Java?  >  > : >     It is a violation of the spec (via Sun's copyright). >   G Perhaps SUN would consider an exception for hardware that doesn't have   IEEE float?    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:13:55 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>/ Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! + Message-ID: <43D58D63.65FA2850@comcast.net>    Arie wrote:  > F > Emulators International is listening too, and we have good news: TheA > first Alpha hardware virtualization software running OpenVMS is - > available. You can read more about it here: 0 > www.personalalpha.com or www.alphaemulator.com > # > We hope you like this development  >  > Best regards,  > Arie de Groot  > Emulators International  > The Netherlands   > www.emulatorsinternational.com  % All-RIGHT!!! You *ALL* are "the man"!   F The price is beyond the reach of hobbyists and most non-entrepreneurs,F but for professional developers and support folks, it will probably be quite useful indeed!   Thank you all, so much!    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:14:41 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: Why we need itanium notebooks now! , Message-ID: <43D58D76.1D272E48@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:H > Perhaps SUN would consider an exception for hardware that doesn't have
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