1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 06 Jul 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 372       Contents: Re: Any news of Sue ? > Re: Education Ministry rethinks payroll plans (Oracle and VMS)- Re: Error enabling snapshots on DBMS database - Re: Error enabling snapshots on DBMS database  FTP .bck file from VMS to W2k3" Re: FTP .bck file from VMS to W2k3" Re: FTP .bck file from VMS to W2k3" Re: FTP .bck file from VMS to W2k3! Re: Google hires Alpha developers $ Re: Multiple FTP servers - possible? Re: MySQL License on OpenVMS?  Office Friendly RX2620 Re: Office Friendly RX2620 OT: Ken Lay dead Re: Strange shadow disk hang& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?G Re: zipping large files (was Re: Info-ZIP's Zip V2.32 is now available)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 21:32:17 -0400 . From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> Subject: Re: Any news of Sue ?- Message-ID: <44AC6819.55B5E7F4@vaxination.ca>    Got an email from Sue today.  E She is still alive. The pain is starting to go down. (I think she was I ina lot of pain before).  But she cannot spend much time at her desk yet.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 19:01:14 -0000 1 From: wspencer@ap.dontspamme.org (Warren Spencer) G Subject: Re: Education Ministry rethinks payroll plans (Oracle and VMS) 1 Message-ID: <97F79CD5Bwspenceraporg@216.168.3.30>   J squayle@insight.rr.com (Stanley F. Quayle) wrote in <449FA0ED.5056.1DE32E1 @squayle.insight.rr.com>:   E >*sigh* Here's another customer who thought that support for VMS had  	 >ended...  > : >   http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3711102a28,00.html > A >He says that at the time a decision was made to change systems,  C >Datapay's Oracle database and VMS operating system were no longer  < >supported by vendors. This "represented a high risk to the  >Government", he says.   >  >--Stan Quayle >Quayle Consulting Inc.  >  >---------- 9 >Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX 4 >8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA= >stan-at-stanq-dot-com   http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html * >"OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" >  >   ? Shucks - poor guy probably got Windows 98 and OpenVMS mixed up.    --   Warren Spencer Senior Software Engineer The Associated Press   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:24:09 -0600 4 From: Norman Lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>6 Subject: Re: Error enabling snapshots on DBMS database* Message-ID: <44AC11D9.7967DF04@oracle.com>  3 yes.  lots of people are still using DBMS.  I would 6 suggest getting in touch directly with Oracle Rdb/DBMS+ support for assistance with your problem...    Rich Jordan wrote: > H > We've got a production system moving from a small, disk limited box toC > a bigger spacious one and want to enable snapshots on the (Oracle F > Codasyl) DBMS databases.  Based on the docs we're using a DBO/BACKUPI > (single thread), DBO/DELETE, and DBO/RESTORE/SNAPS=(ALLOW,ENABLE) to do G > the deed.  It has worked fine on all but one database (which is using 5 > the same schema as two others that converted fine).  >  > This one database gives us:  > / > %DBO-F-CANTADDSNAP, error adding snapshots to 8 >                      $1$DKB2:[PROD.WAREDB2]MVMAREA.DBS > H > We can restore the database just fine as long as we don't try to allow > snapshots. > ! > DBMS is version V7.1-23 (Alpha)  > F > Comparing a DBO/DUMP of the database (made prior to any work) to theB > other databases using the same schema shows no difference in the+ > MVMAREA other than its size and location.  > " > Anyone still using this product? > J > I haven't found the error in my docs yet either but still working on it.   --  	 - - - - - 0  opinions expressed here are mine and mine alone.  and certainly are not intended in any way to 0  express or represent any opinions or commitment  of oracle corporation.   *  norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:24:19 -0600 4 From: Norman Lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>6 Subject: Re: Error enabling snapshots on DBMS database* Message-ID: <44AC11E3.83A77C72@oracle.com>  3 yes.  lots of people are still using DBMS.  I would 6 suggest getting in touch directly with Oracle Rdb/DBMS+ support for assistance with your problem...    Rich Jordan wrote: > H > We've got a production system moving from a small, disk limited box toC > a bigger spacious one and want to enable snapshots on the (Oracle F > Codasyl) DBMS databases.  Based on the docs we're using a DBO/BACKUPI > (single thread), DBO/DELETE, and DBO/RESTORE/SNAPS=(ALLOW,ENABLE) to do G > the deed.  It has worked fine on all but one database (which is using 5 > the same schema as two others that converted fine).  >  > This one database gives us:  > / > %DBO-F-CANTADDSNAP, error adding snapshots to 8 >                      $1$DKB2:[PROD.WAREDB2]MVMAREA.DBS > H > We can restore the database just fine as long as we don't try to allow > snapshots. > ! > DBMS is version V7.1-23 (Alpha)  > F > Comparing a DBO/DUMP of the database (made prior to any work) to theB > other databases using the same schema shows no difference in the+ > MVMAREA other than its size and location.  > " > Anyone still using this product? > J > I haven't found the error in my docs yet either but still working on it.   --  	 - - - - - 0  opinions expressed here are mine and mine alone.  and certainly are not intended in any way to 0  express or represent any opinions or commitment  of oracle corporation.   *  norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 10:41:25 -0700  From: arcandbrian@hotmail.com ' Subject: FTP .bck file from VMS to W2k3 B Message-ID: <1152121285.072341.81570@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  F Daily I FTP a .bck file from VMS to a W2k3 server in binary mode usingF UCX. The file has the same name so when it is FTPed to the W2k3 server@ it is overwritten everyday. How can I prevent it from being overC written? Can it be FTPed with a new name that will use currentdate? " Your feedback is much appreciated.  
 Thank you,   Brian Arcand   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 18:34:25 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> + Subject: Re: FTP .bck file from VMS to W2k3 E Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0607051221120.16061@localhost.localdomain>   1 On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 arcandbrian@hotmail.com wrote:   C > Daily I FTP a .bck file from VMS to a W2k3 server in binary mode  C > using UCX. The file has the same name so when it is FTPed to the  D > W2k3 server it is overwritten everyday. How can I prevent it from D > being over written? Can it be FTPed with a new name that will use 1 > currentdate? Your feedback is much appreciated.   G Yes, you can specify a destination filename with ftp.  What version of   VMS and what version of UCX?  8 Since Hoff pointed it out, my preference would be to use  $    $ COPY/FTP/BIN/FDL/LOG FILE.BCK -C      w2k3servername::"username password"::'F$CVTIME (,,"DATE")'.BCK   G (The /FDL qualifier is optional, but if the w2k3 box does not complain  > it will be a boon for you when you copy the file back to VMS.)  6 You could also do it using raw ftp commands like this:      $ FTP w2k3servername     Name: username     Password: password 
    FTP>bin"    FTP>put file.bck todaysdate.bck	    FTP>^Z   D If you want to automate it, then you need to have your command file ? create an input file for ftp that contains the "bin" and "put"   commands and then do:       $ FTP w2k3servername - ?      /USERNAME=username/PASSWORD=password/INPUT=ftpcommandsfile   E Emulating the /FDL behaviour from the COPY/FTP command is left as an   exercise for the user.   References:       $ HELP COPY /FTP 
    $ HELP FTP   5 No doubt there is good info on this topic in the FAQ  6 <http://www.hp.com/go/vms/faq> or something like that.   hth.   - Rob      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m6 G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (780)438-9343 (voice)4 Edmonton                         (780)437-3367 (FAX)2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:03:31 -0500 (CDT)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)+ Subject: Re: FTP .bck file from VMS to W2k3 2 Message-ID: <06070514033122_2024476F@antinode.org>   From: arcandbrian@hotmail.com   H > Daily I FTP a .bck file from VMS to a W2k3 server in binary mode usingH > UCX. The file has the same name so when it is FTPed to the W2k3 serverB > it is overwritten everyday. How can I prevent it from being overE > written? Can it be FTPed with a new name that will use currentdate? $ > Your feedback is much appreciated.   alp $ help copy /ftp   COPY     /FTP  B        Transfers files between hosts with possibly dissimilar fileD        systems over a TCP/IP connection by invoking the FTP utility.  
        Format   1          COPY/FTP  input-filespec output-filespec 1                                   ===============       
 FTP> help put    PUT  [...]   /        PUT [...] ( local_file [ remote_file ] ) +                                 ===========  [...] &        put  local_file [ remote_file ]$                          ===========     FTP> help rename   RENAME  E      Renames a remote file. To use this command, you must have an FTP        session with a remote host.        DCL Format            RENAME  old_name new_name                          ========        UNIX Format           rename  old_name new_name                          ========    F    It might help to see the report from "UCX SHOW VERSION" and/or some= sort of description of how you're doing the FTP transfer now.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 19:18:37 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> + Subject: Re: FTP .bck file from VMS to W2k3 : Message-ID: <5KOdna_SPedS1THZnZ2dnUVZ_v-dnZ2d@comcast.com>   arcandbrian@hotmail.com wrote:H > Daily I FTP a .bck file from VMS to a W2k3 server in binary mode usingH > UCX. The file has the same name so when it is FTPed to the W2k3 serverB > it is overwritten everyday. How can I prevent it from being overE > written? Can it be FTPed with a new name that will use currentdate? $ > Your feedback is much appreciated. >  > Thank you, >  > Brian Arcand >   I You use a different file name for each backup!  You should be aware that  G Windoze has no way to preserve the metadata for the file; when you get  G it back it will be as 512 byte fixed length records.  You will need to  H do a SET FILE /ATTRIBUTES to restore the original blocksize if you ever / need to bring the file back to your VMS system.   B It would be fairly simple to script something to send the file as E backup1, backup2, backup3. . . . backupn using enough numbers in the  / series to provide the desired retention period.   G I'll write it for you for a moderately outrageous fee; cash in advance!    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 18:44:19 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> * Subject: Re: Google hires Alpha developers; Message-ID: <44ac402a$0$6179$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>    ----- Original Message -----  / From: "Heywood Floyd" <heywood.floyd@yohoo.com>  Newsgroups: comp.os.vms # Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 8:16 PM * Subject: Re: Google hires Alpha developers    ; >A Search Engine That's Becoming an Inventor (July 3, 2006)  > http://www.NYTimes.com >  [...snip...] > I > Mr. Reynolds estimated that Google's computing costs are half those of  L > other large Internet companies and a tenth those of traditional corporate  > technology users.  >    What? How could this be?  J The rest of the computer industry should find a way to slip some MBAs and M non-technical project managers into Google so they don't make the rest of us  	 look bad.    :-)   
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 21:00:22 +0200 ' From: Hans Blom <hans.y.blom@telia.com> - Subject: Re: Multiple FTP servers - possible? = Message-ID: <44ac0bc5$0$11293$88260bb3@news-taz.teranews.com>    sol gongola wrote:! > hanblo {at} netscape.net wrote: 	 >> Hello, B >> we have a problem with ftp-clients setting up connections at anG >> tremendous speed. This means our ftp-server isn't to happy about the H >> situation and starts refusing connections. Would the proper remedy beG >> to try to start a second ftp-server on another port? Anybody has any 6 >> experience on how to handle this kind of situation?H >> OpenVMS 7.3-2, TCPIP 5.4 ECO 4 on AlphaServer ES47 7/1000 with 16 GB. >>
 >> Regards >> Hans  >> > J > I assume "tremendous speed" is many connections within a short period of > time. > > If you could set up a second ftp server on the same machine,A > it wouldn't solve the problem of too many connection coming in.  > 9 > Maybe if you described the situation a little better... 5 > Are you supposed to be getting so many connections? 6 > Are they for uploading to the server or downloading.E > Are the connections coming from the internet or only from your LAN. - > All from the same machine or many machines.  > G > Opening and closing connections for each transfer uses more resources : > than keeping the connection open for multiple transfers. > A > If you have to have numerous file transfers, you might consider 1 > using nfs or file sharing (pathworks or samba).  > 	 > regards  > sol  >  >  > G I understand that setting up a second server will not reduce the amount F of incoming connections, but since one of OpenVMS' shortcomings (don'tE hit me) is creating processes, there at least will be another process % doing it's chores "at the same time".   E Unfortunately this is incoming puts and gets from mostly internet and D some are from the local lan. The internet ones are from an external,F let's call it, serviceprovider and they from time to time have quite aG lot of files to transfer. Apparently their application can't transfer a D lot of files in one connection, but there is one connection for eachE file. They also have the illusion it's realtime data, which isn't the  case at all.. nfs and so on are totally out of the question. Regards  Hans   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 12:55:51 -0700 ' From: "toby" <toby@telegraphics.com.au> & Subject: Re: MySQL License on OpenVMS?A Message-ID: <1152129351.448550.9990@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>    Neil Rieck wrote: 3 > "Walter Kuhn" <w.kuhn@ksg.co.at> wrote in message B > news:44aa759d$0$3888$91cee783@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at... > > Hello Groups,  > > L > > does anybody have information and experience about licensing models and= /or L > > license fees for MySQL on OpenVMS (used in a commercial product)? Is theL > > OpenVMS port as available at http://www.pi-net.dyndns.org/anonymous/kit= s/; > > free? If not, who tells the proce and who gets the fee?  > >  > > Thanks in advance  > >  > > Kind Regards > >  > > Walter Kuhn  > > KSG GesmbH > > Computerstrasse 6  > > A - 1101 Wien  > > = > You might wish to check with Jean-Fran=E7ois PI=C9RONNE at: 4 > http://www.pi-net.dyndns.org/anonymous/kits/#mysqlE > He has ported MySQL to OpenVMS and should have some knowledge about F > licensing. (although I thought it was much like LINUX; part of their; > business model is to give it away but charge for support)   F Well, "sort of". There is a GPL version (which as mentioned above doesE not permit redistribution with a closed proprietary product); the OEM F commercial license; and Network product (commercial per-server licenseD and various levels of support; the Network product is apparently not: available for OpenVMS, as other posters have pointed out).  E If the GPL does not apply to the OP's situation, licensing would need ; to be arranged with MySQL, whether he wants support or not.    >  > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.: > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html; > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html H > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/openvms_notes_rms_rdb.html#mySQL   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 15:42:17 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Office Friendly RX2620 3 Message-ID: <1eeUs0g5Hhxa@eisner.encompasserve.org>   H I keep hearing about an "office friendly kit" or "office friendly model"F of the IA64 RX2620, which disallows a redundant power supply but makes" the machine run much more quietly.  7 But I can find no information on www.hp.com about this.  Neither can Google.    Can anyone provide a pointer ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 01:51:18 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) # Subject: Re: Office Friendly RX2620 [ Message-ID: <rdeininger-0507062151140001@dialup-4.233.179.139.dial1.manchester1.level3.net>   I In article <1eeUs0g5Hhxa@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net  (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:  I >I keep hearing about an "office friendly kit" or "office friendly model" G >of the IA64 RX2620, which disallows a redundant power supply but makes # >the machine run much more quietly.  > 8 >But I can find no information on www.hp.com about this. >Neither can Google. >  >Can anyone provide a pointer ?   G I can't find it either.  Maybe someone lost the web page (again).  I'll  ask around for more info.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 00:08:35 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: OT: Ken Lay dead , Message-ID: <44AC8CB1.FFF8BFEA@teksavvy.com>  F former Compaq director during the Alphacide has finally died. Not sureH if he had begun his prison sentence for the economic crimes he committed at Enron.     H I wonder if they reserved cemetary plot next to those spots reserved for Palmer, Carly and Curly.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 10:35:42 -0700 ( From: "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com>% Subject: Re: Strange shadow disk hang B Message-ID: <1152120942.512141.308800@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   Volker Halle wrote:  > Rich,  > C > a hang like this is one of the possible symptoms of a blocked XQP B > operation. You could have issued the SDA> SHOW PROC/LOCK commandH > against the hanging process, once you saw the busy IO against the diskI > (shadowset). Then examine any locks in WAITing (or CONVERTing) state to   > find out, who's blocking them. > G > SDA> CLUE XQP/ACT would have also shown all processes waiting for XQP  > IOs to finish. > G > The PWAIT$SDA extension (OpenVMS Freeware) has been recently enhanced H > to automatically analyze such situations. The enhanced version will beG > available on the next OpenVMS Freeware CD (V8), but is also available  > from:  > * > http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~miller/ > 	 > Volker.    Volker, E      thanks for the info.  I'll get everything set up to do just that  if the problem reccurs.    Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 20:01:22 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? = Message-ID: <44abfe58$0$67256$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:o > In article <1152100090.638589.133370@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes:  >> Main, Kerry wrote:  > E >>> 2. If a security patch does get released, at the local level, who A >>> ensures the patch does not break clustering, forward-backward K >>> compatibility or other specific configs like an older version of the OS K >>> ? The responsibility for testing and ensuring OS compatibility with all L >>> of the other OS and layered product patches falls on the shoulder of theL >>> local IT person. For some shops with very knowledgeable technical staff, >>> that may be acceptable.  >>> J >> If you look at the linux kernel for instance, all fixes are released inD >> patches and support the older kernels for backward compatibility. > < > The issue is not the _intentions_ regarding compatibility. > B > The question was "who ensures the patch does not break...".  TheB > average single contributor does not have the resources to test aD > patch in all environments, particularly on large SMP machines withE > particular hardware devices.  In some cases we are talking machines + > that cost in excess of a million dollars.   G Normally the patches for Linux are kept back a few days, such that the  I kernel developers at the vendors can test them.  No that does leave room  H for an exhaustive test, but nobody can test all possibilities, e.g., HP D does not have the resources for testing VMS on all platforms in all H configurations either.  In particular they do not have the resources to ? test VMS in all possible combinations of hardware and software.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 20:18:13 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? = Message-ID: <44ac024d$0$60786$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Bob Koehler wrote:m > In article <44a7d4a3$0$67257$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  > I >> Actually you can buy a source license for VMS, but it is so expensive  2 >> that people only buy it if they really need it. > J >    The last time I priced source listings, both VMS and HP-UX were aboutI >    $2K.  That's expensive compared to downloading the source for Linux, E >    but not too much for a commercial shop that actually needs them.  > I $2K is a lot of money to a hobbyist or a university.  The hobbyist would  E write better free software if they could afford the listings and the  I universities could use the sources in their education thereby making the   students know VMS.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 13:20:56 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <0c+RTl9vVlkQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <1152113696.778671.282890@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes: > E > The design and ideas are not a secret, i was refering to the source E > code, of course with the design and ideas one could replicate a vms ) > clone, apart from freevms , nobody has.  > I wondering why, thats all.   C    Right.  Get them th source and then the BLISS compiler, Macro-32 6    compiler, and Linker will just spring up overnight.  E    Judging by the speed at which the FreeVMS folks are progressing on %    thier BLISS compiler, I think not.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 13:23:04 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <D+G2nhhFnbaS@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <1152113696.778671.282890@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes: > E > The design and ideas are not a secret, i was refering to the source E > code, of course with the design and ideas one could replicate a vms ) > clone, apart from freevms , nobody has.  > I wondering why, thats all.  >   ;     Why should I spend a lot of time cloning something that ;    1) is copyrighted, so my clone can't be used commercialy ;    2) is already available free for much non-commercial use      ?    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 13:29:14 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <vtR64nGEH0eQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <1152115202.807219.182470@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes: > Tux Wonder-Dog wrote:  > L >> Of course, I suggested in the past that HP do this sort of procedure on aL >> source tree too old to be commercially valuable - say three or four majorM >> releases into the past, so it won't compete with current releases, current  >> policies, and suchlike. >>  G    I know people using VMS 4 commercially.  IMHO you'ld have to go back H    to VMS 2.x to get something HP could be sure has no commercial value.  G > Thats an idea, as long as its publicized , otherwise users may wonder F > why so and so is insecure or free software does not work ie firefox.B > I am not commiting myself to say that is how vms works, but code > changes alot in any os.  > K >> And third-party licensed code would simply be done without if permission J >> wasn't granted.  Filling in those gaps would be well within the average/ >> commpetence of the members of the newsgroup.  >>  E    I thought all the third party code was in layered products anyhow.   1 >> Just my 0.02c, heavily inflated, of course! ;)  >> >> Wesley Parish >> >M >> > Another large obstacle is security. Some sites currently using VMS would I >> > be rather put off by the idea of having such things become "commonly  >> > available". >>O >> That's where my idea of using an earlier source tree might help.  If current M >> practices aren't exposed, but only previous ones, it might help reduce the  >> blood pressure. >> >> What do you think?   ?    Much of the best of current practices dates back to VMS 5.0.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 13:33:50 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <+T3WgOcf4nuS@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <4h1v95F1o4n29U1@individual.net>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > H > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one other difference is that withI > VMS you are not getting "source listings" in the same sense as Linux or K > BSD.  You can't take what you get from HP and actually build VMS from it. J > In fact, I seem to remember someone (the last time this subject came up,D > sigh....) stating that all of the source is not contained in those > listings.  >   E    Once upon a time a separate, compilable source, was available at a @    much higher price.  I don't know if there were any customers.  @    There have always been a few routines missing from the sourceE    listings, for a variety of reasons.  I recall when lib$fid_to_name D    was not in the listings or documentation.  In the next .0 release5    it was in both the listings and the documentation.   H    But there are tools in the DECUS library (or are they on the Freeware>    CD now?) for converting listing files to compilable source.  G    In principle, one need only code replacements for those few routines     that are missing.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 13:38:13 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <veWyhlBvL75V@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <1152112992.485609.185760@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>, "geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes: > Main, Kerry wrote: > H >> As I stated in my earlier response, there are some very knowledgeableI >> resources out here working on open source code. However, they are only I >> human and hence will only focus on the code that most directly impacts  >> them.F > surely this must go for any large scale os? nobody can check through8 > 100000000s of lines of code, even if they never slept.  C    Once upon a time there were no lines of code for VMS.  As it was B    written and it grew, professional development processes seem toC    have been used, which would include checking every line of code.   B    And I think VMS is still far below the 8 orders of magnitude in    lines of code.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 13:41:33 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <cKaantRXQEYv@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <44abfe58$0$67256$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  > I > Normally the patches for Linux are kept back a few days, such that the  K > kernel developers at the vendors can test them.  No that does leave room  J > for an exhaustive test, but nobody can test all possibilities, e.g., HP F > does not have the resources for testing VMS on all platforms in all J > configurations either.  In particular they do not have the resources to A > test VMS in all possible combinations of hardware and software.   A    The enormous testing VMS does go through, having dropped a few ?    formerly supported configurations, is one of the reasons its     quality stays high.  ?    Not having to release security patches overnight every night     helps a lot.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 15:06:55 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <WR$RqfyqF0Lm@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <+T3WgOcf4nuS@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: b > In article <4h1v95F1o4n29U1@individual.net>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>  I >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one other difference is that with J >> VMS you are not getting "source listings" in the same sense as Linux orL >> BSD.  You can't take what you get from HP and actually build VMS from it.K >> In fact, I seem to remember someone (the last time this subject came up, E >> sigh....) stating that all of the source is not contained in those  >> listings. >>   > G >    Once upon a time a separate, compilable source, was available at a B >    much higher price.  I don't know if there were any customers.  G I consulted for one customer who got it for VMS V3 or so.  At that time  the price was $25,000.  C I have heard informally from VMS development folks that there is no D current price because there is no current customer who has expressed an interest.  B >    There have always been a few routines missing from the sourceG >    listings, for a variety of reasons.  I recall when lib$fid_to_name F >    was not in the listings or documentation.  In the next .0 release7 >    it was in both the listings and the documentation.   G There is something currently missing from the source listings, and when G I pointed that out the answer was the moral equivalent of "whoops". The G answer was not a firm committment that it would be in the very next set H of source listing, because the source listing creation process is not at+ the top of the priority in VMS development.    ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 15:08:37 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <D9Um9c$PP3At@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <44ac024d$0$60786$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  > Bob Koehler wrote:n >> In article <44a7d4a3$0$67257$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: >>  J >>> Actually you can buy a source license for VMS, but it is so expensive 3 >>> that people only buy it if they really need it.  >>  K >>    The last time I priced source listings, both VMS and HP-UX were about J >>    $2K.  That's expensive compared to downloading the source for Linux,F >>    but not too much for a commercial shop that actually needs them. >>  K > $2K is a lot of money to a hobbyist or a university.  The hobbyist would  G > write better free software if they could afford the listings and the  K > universities could use the sources in their education thereby making the   > students know VMS.  H The hobbyist would write better free software if they wrote to publishedH interfaces rather than to an interface VMS Development has not committed to maintain.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 22:24:12 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? = Message-ID: <44ac1fd2$0$67262$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:p > In article <1152110879.433206.256100@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>, "geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes: >> Larry Kilgallen wrote:  > B >>> Which of the Unix group identifiers control built-in operatingC >>> system _operations_ such as changing to an inner mode, allowing C >>> one to create a new receiving network socket, crash the system, A >>> create a process under another identity, map address space to A >>> particular physical IO space, create in-machine communication B >>> ports that will persist beyond the termination of the process,> >>> access _any_ unaccessed object on the system, access _any_= >>> unaccessed object on the system but only for read, access @ >>> nominally unshareable devices even though they are currentlyA >>> accessed by another process, alter process priority above the @ >>> nominal process quota, make network connections, control the( >>> auditing system, exceed disk quota ?= >> Similar to my last answer , but i provide a differnet link  >> http://www.grsecurity.net/  >>@ >>> And across which unix type operating systems are those group# >>> identifiers uniformly honored ? ) >> its work on any linux and bsd project.  > D > That appears to be an add-on product rather than something one can9 > depend on always being present in the operating system.  > E > I see nothing to indicate it is guaranteed by any vendor, much less  > the operating system vendor.	   I SELinux was an addon, but it has been merged into the official kernel of  C Linux for some time now.  I would expect it to be included all new  I versions of commercial Linux from now on, at least versions intended for   general purpose computing.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 22:30:40 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? = Message-ID: <44ac2155$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:m > In article <44ac024d$0$60786$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  >> Bob Koehler wrote: o >>> In article <44a7d4a3$0$67257$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  >>> K >>>> Actually you can buy a source license for VMS, but it is so expensive  4 >>>> that people only buy it if they really need it.L >>>    The last time I priced source listings, both VMS and HP-UX were aboutK >>>    $2K.  That's expensive compared to downloading the source for Linux, G >>>    but not too much for a commercial shop that actually needs them.  >>> L >> $2K is a lot of money to a hobbyist or a university.  The hobbyist would H >> write better free software if they could afford the listings and the L >> universities could use the sources in their education thereby making the  >> students know VMS.  > J > The hobbyist would write better free software if they wrote to publishedJ > interfaces rather than to an interface VMS Development has not committed > to maintain.  G Yes, but the source listings are full of examples on how to write code  I for VMS.  E.g., I needed to get the creation date of a file, which might  G be locked.  I looked into the implementation of the directory command,   to see how that is done.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 15:39:44 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <5t$ofcN5wnYl@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <44ac2155$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  > Larry Kilgallen wrote:n >> In article <44ac024d$0$60786$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: >>> Bob Koehler wrote:p >>>> In article <44a7d4a3$0$67257$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: >>>>L >>>>> Actually you can buy a source license for VMS, but it is so expensive 5 >>>>> that people only buy it if they really need it. M >>>>    The last time I priced source listings, both VMS and HP-UX were about L >>>>    $2K.  That's expensive compared to downloading the source for Linux,H >>>>    but not too much for a commercial shop that actually needs them. >>>>M >>> $2K is a lot of money to a hobbyist or a university.  The hobbyist would  I >>> write better free software if they could afford the listings and the  M >>> universities could use the sources in their education thereby making the   >>> students know VMS. >>  K >> The hobbyist would write better free software if they wrote to published K >> interfaces rather than to an interface VMS Development has not committed  >> to maintain.  > I > Yes, but the source listings are full of examples on how to write code  K > for VMS.  E.g., I needed to get the creation date of a file, which might  I > be locked.  I looked into the implementation of the directory command,   > to see how that is done.  A And when VMS Development closes off a path, either for reasons of B performance or security, they scour the VMS sources and change all. their no-longer-working usage to be different.  4 Outside code which uses those tricks is thus broken.  ( Documented interfaces are always better.   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 21:59:32 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <4h2r24F1pfejoU1@individual.net>  = In article <44ac024d$0$60786$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, . 	Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:n >> In article <44a7d4a3$0$67257$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: >>  J >>> Actually you can buy a source license for VMS, but it is so expensive 3 >>> that people only buy it if they really need it.  >>  K >>    The last time I priced source listings, both VMS and HP-UX were about J >>    $2K.  That's expensive compared to downloading the source for Linux,F >>    but not too much for a commercial shop that actually needs them. >>  K > $2K is a lot of money to a hobbyist or a university.  The hobbyist would  > > write better free software if they could afford the listings  C No, they wouldn't.  Having access to the source of VMS is not going C to magically transform basement nerds with no social life into real F programmers.  And the real programmers among the open source community# already write better free spftware.   H >                                                               and the K > universities could use the sources in their education thereby making the   > students know VMS.  G Could, but wouldn't.  The two reasons that pop immediately into my mind F are the lack of a decent textbook to go along with those sources and a1 total lack of interest in VMS in the first place.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 02:41:56 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? = Message-ID: <44ac5c39$0$67256$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:m > In article <44ac2155$0$67264$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  >> Larry Kilgallen wrote: o >>> In article <44ac024d$0$60786$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  >>>> Bob Koehler wrote: q >>>>> In article <44a7d4a3$0$67257$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  >>>>> M >>>>>> Actually you can buy a source license for VMS, but it is so expensive  6 >>>>>> that people only buy it if they really need it.N >>>>>    The last time I priced source listings, both VMS and HP-UX were aboutM >>>>>    $2K.  That's expensive compared to downloading the source for Linux, I >>>>>    but not too much for a commercial shop that actually needs them.  >>>>> N >>>> $2K is a lot of money to a hobbyist or a university.  The hobbyist would J >>>> write better free software if they could afford the listings and the N >>>> universities could use the sources in their education thereby making the  >>>> students know VMS. L >>> The hobbyist would write better free software if they wrote to publishedL >>> interfaces rather than to an interface VMS Development has not committed >>> to maintain.J >> Yes, but the source listings are full of examples on how to write code L >> for VMS.  E.g., I needed to get the creation date of a file, which might J >> be locked.  I looked into the implementation of the directory command,  >> to see how that is done.  > C > And when VMS Development closes off a path, either for reasons of D > performance or security, they scour the VMS sources and change all0 > their no-longer-working usage to be different. > 6 > Outside code which uses those tricks is thus broken. > * > Documented interfaces are always better.  E You still don't get it.  The VMS sources are full of examples of the  H usage of the documented interfaces, e.g., as far as I remember there is F no usage of undocumented features in the directory command, and I did F not use any undocumented interfaces for the code I wrote.  However, I E think most experienced programmers would get a better solution after  D seeing how Digital did it.  Files accessed through DECNET should be I handled differently from local files, and I think most programmers would  H not realize that.  I would only use undocumented interfaces if no other  solution is possible,    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 19:59:50 -0500 6 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net>/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 0 Message-ID: <44AC6086.DCA6F6C2@spam.comcast.net>   geletine wrote:  >  > Tux Wonder-Dog wrote:  > > David J. Dachtera wrote: > > N > > That is something I've put some thought into.  Something like VMS tends toO > > attract a large community around it, of hobbyists etc., who use it on their M > > own private machines if at all possible.  And likewise, the engineers who L > > developed it are often fond of it and keep using it as long as they can. > > = > Thanks for mentioning it ,the reason i started this thread.  > M > > That's two elements of a community big enough to untangle such a problem.  > > L > > Then you see the effects of a community dedicated enough in the likes ofL > > Groklaw.net.  I doubt that opening the source of VMS under some suitableO > > license such as the MPL, would be a problem too difficult for people on the 1 > > newsgroup and HP, working together, to solve.  > > D > well it looks difficult so far, agreeing if open source is good or > not...  G Don't think there's much discussion there. So far, no one has said open F source is not good. 'Bout all we've said so far is that the likelihoodE of it happening for VMS is virtually nil, for the many reasons cited.   M > > Of course, I suggested in the past that HP do this sort of procedure on a M > > source tree too old to be commercially valuable - say three or four major N > > releases into the past, so it won't compete with current releases, current > > policies, and suchlike.  > > G > Thats an idea, as long as its publicized , otherwise users may wonder F > why so and so is insecure or free software does not work ie firefox.B > I am not commiting myself to say that is how vms works, but code > changes alot in any os.    New to VMS, eh?   L > > And third-party licensed code would simply be done without if permissionK > > wasn't granted.  Filling in those gaps would be well within the average 0 > > commpetence of the members of the newsgroup.  H Either you over-estimate the denizens of Usenet or you underestimate the  denizens of OpenVMS Eningeering.  - Consider how many attempts have been made at:    o "Free"-VMS o VAX Linux   H Perhaps the task is a bit more daunting than is obvious at first glance.  2 > > Just my 0.02c, heavily inflated, of course! ;) > >  > > Wesley Parish  > > > N > > > Another large obstacle is security. Some sites currently using VMS wouldJ > > > be rather put off by the idea of having such things become "commonly > > > available".  > > P > > That's where my idea of using an earlier source tree might help.  If currentN > > practices aren't exposed, but only previous ones, it might help reduce the > > blood pressure.  > >  > > What do you think? > I > Who knows if a older version was released in source and a fork was made C > of it, it could well be interesting. perhaps may i dare say, more   > secure than the closed vms. :)   How do you figure?  E ...or are you assuming that VMS follows the models of other platforms B where the baby is sometimes thrown out with the bath water and the) "engineers" just start over from scratch.   G Google this group a bit and see how much mention has been made over the 8 years of binaries linked on V1.5 that still run on V8.2.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------   Date: 5 Jul 2006 21:02:59 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <kGzOOhWlMNbO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <44ac5c39$0$67256$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:   G > You still don't get it.  The VMS sources are full of examples of the  J > usage of the documented interfaces, e.g., as far as I remember there is H > no usage of undocumented features in the directory command, and I did H > not use any undocumented interfaces for the code I wrote.  However, I G > think most experienced programmers would get a better solution after  F > seeing how Digital did it.  Files accessed through DECNET should be K > handled differently from local files, and I think most programmers would  J > not realize that.  I would only use undocumented interfaces if no other  > solution is possible,   E I think that faced with new knowledge most programmers are tempted to F use the techniques they see without determining whether they are using documented interfaces.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 22:33:52 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <44AC7684.356F335B@teksavvy.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:J > The hobbyist would write better free software if they wrote to publishedJ > interfaces rather than to an interface VMS Development has not committed > to maintain.    E Consider the problem of the TCPIP services SMTP receiver that doesn't @ check properly for validity of destination username (limit of 12 characters etc).  G Has this portion of software been open sourced, the VMS community would @ have long ago solved that problem and probably added better SPAM9 protection, using already public code from other systems.     H If VMS engineering was given the resources to keep all of vMS up to day,G then there would not be the need for users to change stuff and we would E all be proud of VMS engineering's acocmplishements and its ability to V keep VME in a leader position with features, and top of the line for quality/security.  F Alas, this is not the case for many portions of VMS. And the remainingB VMS engineering group is still doing a fine job with what they are? tasked to do, but they cannot realistically take on everything.    ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 22:25:40 -0500 (CDT)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)P Subject: Re: zipping large files (was Re: Info-ZIP's Zip V2.32 is now available)2 Message-ID: <06070522254077_2024476F@antinode.org>  I >    I've been fooling around lately with gzip 1.3.5 (large files, better H > RMS default parameters, command-line case preservation -- the usuals). > [...]   %    For those desperate for amusement:   *       http://antinode.org/dec/sw/gzip.html  C    My guess is that it'll work on anything back to VMS V5.4, but no D bets.  Large-file support requires something a bit newer than that. E There's no special ODS5 code anywhere (yet), so don't be amazed if it 6 has trouble there.  As always, complaints are welcome.  F    I'm trying to get in touch with the official gzip developers in theF hope of getting the VMS stuff updated in the official kit.  No bets on
 that, either.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.372 ************************