1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 06 Jul 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 373       Contents:" Re: FTP .bck file from VMS to W2k3+ Re: Making LIB$*_VM_PAGE Caller's-mode safe D Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the commandE Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line I Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line I Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line I Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line I Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line P Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line lineliP Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line lineliP Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line lineli Re: Office Friendly RX2620 Re: Office Friendly RX2620 Re: Office Friendly RX2620 Re: Office Friendly RX2620' Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked  Re: OT: Ken Lay dead Re: OT: Ken Lay dead Re: OT: Ken Lay dead Re: OT: Ken Lay dead Re: OT: Ken Lay dead Re: OT: Ken Lay dead Re: OT: Ken Lay dead Re: OT: Ken Lay dead3 Problem mounting MSA1000 in Compaq/HP H9A15-MC rack  Re: Strange shadow disk hang& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?& Re: The possibility of vms opening up? There is a good photo website ! Re: There is a good photo website  TOY clock battery question Re: TOY clock battery question Re: TOY clock battery question Re: TOY clock battery question  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 07:34:44 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) + Subject: Re: FTP .bck file from VMS to W2k3 3 Message-ID: <xNTtY91dZ7mq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <1152121285.072341.81570@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, arcandbrian@hotmail.com writes:H > Daily I FTP a .bck file from VMS to a W2k3 server in binary mode usingH > UCX. The file has the same name so when it is FTPed to the W2k3 serverB > it is overwritten everyday. How can I prevent it from being overE > written? Can it be FTPed with a new name that will use currentdate? $ > Your feedback is much appreciated.  H    I'd be tempted to FTP the file to a system which actually is reliableE    enough to keep backups on.  Maybe one with versions built into its     file system.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 20:00:23 +08003 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> 4 Subject: Re: Making LIB$*_VM_PAGE Caller's-mode safe1 Message-ID: <e8itso$7u0$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Ian,   F > Of course there is nothing stopping you from writing your own memory> > allocation routines as a UWSS and calling from your own code  I True, but the re-usability (admittedly, already diminished by splitting a L previously common pool) isn't what it's cracked up to be, if you're the onlyG one observing the convention. But hey, as we stand here today, the only K viable solution is allocate a system-manager-configured chunk of memory and H if the limit is exceeed send a message saying increase the parameter andL stop/restart the application server. Why does it have to be more complicated
 than that?  H > I think the idea of having four heaps for four modes and the alternate9 > UWSS form of the lib$vm routines appears to be good to.   I Yeah, it has its good points (most robust defence available, and greatest K flexibility, to name but two) but its strength can quickly be turned into a J weakness if much of the lib$*vm metadata and control structures need to beD present on the exact same page(s) as the memory address(es) that areI returned/allocated to the user :-( That is, it's great for the inner-mode I heaps but if you give the UWSS a user-mode-writable page and say "On here G are all sorts of structures and pointers you should use and trust" then J probing before every (internal) write would be a lot more complicated thanK if the pages in the pool were owned by a trusted mode. (And pointed to by a . trusted year-dot-address in a protected psect)  I > I wonder if the overhead of calling a memory allocation routine that is > > a system service rather than a mode-of-caller rtl routine is > significant.  K Me too. I have heard several knowledgeable people do a lot of teeth-sucking J when discussing mode switching, but I have yet to see the metrics. (And isI the o/head of the CMxxxx that much less if you are already at mode xxxx?)   J Given the pervasive nature of lib$*_vm in VMS and sheer volume of calls toK these routines via RTLs and Layered Products, any performance premium would ( probably blow the idea out of the water.  H Which brings us back to the cheap-and-cheerful strategy of Caller's-Mode
 tolerance!  I > In your proposed scheme, being able to mess up the supervisor mode heap  > seems a bad thing.  I It is currently unsupported to call these routines from supervisor-mode -  Tough titties :-)   = But seriously, you'd be no worse off than you are today, with L one-heap-for-all. I don't know how Supervisor mode works or if DCL even usesF lib$*vm (Judging by a recent ITRC question, it doesn't appear to enjoyI dynamic allocation let alone something as tricky as a realloc, so perhaps  it's a non-issue?)  I But if by simply exporting a PSECT from a PROTECTed shareable and linking G LIBRTL against it we could securely access the lib$*_vm_* routines from J Exec/Kernel mode in a supportable manner then I, for one, think it's worth doing! Anybody else?  H The same hypersort/vm_regime logicals could be used to preserve existingG single-pool behaviour. Only this time pointing to, not a UWSS, but just J another run-o'-the-mill shareable. (It would take some big-balls indeed toK stand in front of a VMS customer and say you lib$*vm code has *always* been = *broken*! But who better for the job then the Don himself :-)   K More food-for-thought? Or simply the manifestation of all that is pointless  in my life?    BTW thanks for the reply.    Cheers Richard Maher  J PS. I'm beginning to think that, due to the current lib$*vm implementationL as discussed above, it would be impossible to reliably and securely allocateK memory from an outer-mode heap whilst in an inner-mode :-( So Plan-B for my K "Exec AST Allocate - User AST Free" strategy would be to lib$create_vm_zone L (Verifiable Name/Address) from Exec-Mode (resulting in Exec-owned pages) andB pass an address from a subsequent lib$get_vm as a parameter to theL psl$c_user AST. The User-mode AST would then free the memory via a UWSS thatL would *only* deal with addresses in the Dickie-Zone. See anything wrong withK that? (As well as changeing lib$get_vm_page's $expreg from psl$c_user only, J VMS engineering *must* also slip in a $setprt OWUR on the page! Yes folks,. outer-modes must continue to have Read access)  F PPS. Can't remember how (or if?) lib$*vm calls $deltva - mode-crossing issues?   A PPPS. Good ol' PARENT_PROT should look after any spoofing issues.   + "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message = news:1151763220.859000.112320@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... H > I think the idea of having four heaps for four modes and the alternate9 > UWSS form of the lib$vm routines appears to be good to.  > F > Of course there is nothing stopping you from writing your own memoryH > allocation routines as a UWSS and calling from your own code but there, > is a case for these routines to be in VMS. > I > I wonder if the overhead of calling a memory allocation routine that is > > a system service rather than a mode-of-caller rtl routine is > significant. > I > In your proposed scheme, being able to mess up the supervisor mode heap  > seems a bad thing. >    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 12:45:43 -0500  From: briggs@encompasserve.orgM Subject: Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command 3 Message-ID: <B6f5Z16aDhuI@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <44ad3f0c$0$67261$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: E > As I remember it, PHOTO creates a pseudo terminal and spawns a new  J > process which communicate through the pseudo terminal with photo, which J > communicates with the user through the physical terminal.  Photo simply H > record what is send through it, and no sneaky games with the terminal  > driver is needed.   E Thanks.  That sounds like a much cleaner implementation than the kind  of thing I had in mind.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 07:55:31 -0700 $ From: "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com>N Subject: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command lineA Message-ID: <1152197729.814667.17940@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   
 Is it photon?   
 Thank you, Christopher Lusardi    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 08:20:00 -0700 $ From: "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com>R Subject: Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command lineC Message-ID: <1152199199.628617.174130@m38g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    Christoph Gartmann wrote: j > In article <1152197729.814667.17940@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com> writes: > >Is it photon? >  > RECALL/ALL >   E No, I want the output of all commands I've entered since entering the 2 command! What is the command and how do I stop it?  F For example, say the command name is "photon" I want to capture all of the following:  	 Directory   " FILE1.MEMO;2          FILE1.MEMO;1   DELETE FILE1.*;*  
 Directory   
 Thank you, Christopher Lusardi    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 17:02:50 +0100. From: "David Biddulph" <david@biddulph.org.uk>R Subject: Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line1 Message-ID: <44ad3174$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net>   9 "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.nospam> wrote in message  7 news:44ad2fbe$0$60782$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...  > Chris L wrote: >> Is it photon? >>
 >> Thank you,  >> Christopher Lusardi   > PHOTO   + Which version of VMS includes that command?  --   David Biddulph     ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 11:20:47 -0500  From: briggs@encompasserve.orgR Subject: Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line3 Message-ID: <PJ8iu3kXuHeM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <1152197729.814667.17940@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com> writes: > Is it photon?   ? It is impolite to ask questions in the Subject: line.  Ask them @ in the message body.  If this means repeating the question twice* then you should repeat the question twice.  < It took me a few moments to decode what you might have meant by asking about photons.  D PHOTO is a utility that can capture a session log to a file on disk.E It is not part of VMS.  It is an add-on tool.  I assume that it works H by playing some sneaky games with the terminal driver so that subsequent0 I/O goes both to the screen and to the log file.  = Since DCL command line processing generally works on only the > first four characters of the command name, PHOT, PHOTO, PHOTON7 and PHOTICKLEMETODEATH are all valid syntaxes to invoke  the PHOTO utility.  C Since PHONE is part of VMS, abbreviations of PHOTO down to three or C fewer characters are unlikely to succeed in activating the utility.    ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:21:33 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukR Subject: Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line) Message-ID: <e8jdad$njn$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   j In article <1152199199.628617.174130@m38g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com> writes: >  >Christoph Gartmann wrote:k >> In article <1152197729.814667.17940@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com> writes:  >> >Is it photon?  >>
 >> RECALL/ALL  >> > F >No, I want the output of all commands I've entered since entering the3 >command! What is the command and how do I stop it?  > G >For example, say the command name is "photon" I want to capture all of  >the following:  > 
 >Directory > # >FILE1.MEMO;2          FILE1.MEMO;1  >  >DELETE FILE1.*;*  >  >Directory   >  >Thank you,  >Christopher Lusardi >    Two ways of doing that :-    1)  SET HOST 0 /LOG=filename    O Will allow you to login again and will record everything you do in the file you  specified until you logout.   N 2) Look in sys$examples for a C program called alpha_logger.c then compile andJ    link it. There should be a similar VAX program in the VAX sys$examples I    (and there was also a similar public domain VAX program called PHOTO).   & Then run it and use logout to exit it.J A file called SESSION.LOG will be created recording everything done in the	 meantime.        
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University      ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 17:44:25 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> Y Subject: Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line lineli = Message-ID: <44ad2fbe$0$60782$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    Chris L wrote: > Is it photon?  >  > Thank you, > Christopher Lusardi  >  PHOTO    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 18:38:15 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> Y Subject: Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line lineli = Message-ID: <44ad3c5b$0$67262$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    David Biddulph wrote: ; > "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.nospam> wrote in message  9 > news:44ad2fbe$0$60782$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk...  >> Chris L wrote:  >>> Is it photon?  >>>  >>> Thank you, >>> Christopher Lusardi  >  >> PHOTO > - > Which version of VMS includes that command?   A None. It is freeware.  You may find on old distributions of free  D software.  If you do not find the photo command try looking for the  supervisor package.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 18:49:44 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> Y Subject: Re: Name of command to create history of things typed at the command line lineli = Message-ID: <44ad3f0c$0$67261$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: j > In article <1152197729.814667.17940@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com> writes: >> Is it photon? > A > It is impolite to ask questions in the Subject: line.  Ask them B > in the message body.  If this means repeating the question twice, > then you should repeat the question twice. > > > It took me a few moments to decode what you might have meant > by asking about photons. > F > PHOTO is a utility that can capture a session log to a file on disk.G > It is not part of VMS.  It is an add-on tool.  I assume that it works J > by playing some sneaky games with the terminal driver so that subsequent2 > I/O goes both to the screen and to the log file.  C As I remember it, PHOTO creates a pseudo terminal and spawns a new  H process which communicate through the pseudo terminal with photo, which H communicates with the user through the physical terminal.  Photo simply F record what is send through it, and no sneaky games with the terminal  driver is needed.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 04:59:45 -0700 / From: "Martin Walker" <martin.walker@csf.co.uk> # Subject: Re: Office Friendly RX2620 B Message-ID: <1152187183.232377.12140@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:   K > In article <1eeUs0g5Hhxa@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net  > (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > K > >I keep hearing about an "office friendly kit" or "office friendly model" I > >of the IA64 RX2620, which disallows a redundant power supply but makes % > >the machine run much more quietly.  > > : > >But I can find no information on www.hp.com about this. > >Neither can Google. > > ! > >Can anyone provide a pointer ?  > I > I can't find it either.  Maybe someone lost the web page (again).  I'll  > ask around for more info.    I'm told...   = "You can order it as an additional part number AD244A for the E replacement fans on top of an order for a standard rx2620. It can now  be0 factory integrated rather than a field upgrade."   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 05:59:37 -0700  From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk# Subject: Re: Office Friendly RX2620 B Message-ID: <1152190776.907144.11630@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  D Thanks for that Martin - I think we may start needing them soon too.   List price and description are:   < AD244A  =A3222.00   HP rx2620 Office-friendly Conversion Kit   Steve    Martin Walker wrote: > Robert Deininger wrote:  > L > > In article <1eeUs0g5Hhxa@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.n= et > > (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > > L > > >I keep hearing about an "office friendly kit" or "office friendly mode= l"K > > >of the IA64 RX2620, which disallows a redundant power supply but makes ' > > >the machine run much more quietly.  > > > < > > >But I can find no information on www.hp.com about this. > > >Neither can Google. > > > # > > >Can anyone provide a pointer ?  > > K > > I can't find it either.  Maybe someone lost the web page (again).  I'll  > > ask around for more info.  > 
 > I'm told...  > ? > "You can order it as an additional part number AD244A for the G > replacement fans on top of an order for a standard rx2620. It can now  > be2 > factory integrated rather than a field upgrade."   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 07:06:32 -0700 ; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> # Subject: Re: Office Friendly RX2620 C Message-ID: <1152194791.265825.297090@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Robert Deininger wrote: K > In article <1eeUs0g5Hhxa@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net  > (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > K > >I keep hearing about an "office friendly kit" or "office friendly model" I > >of the IA64 RX2620, which disallows a redundant power supply but makes % > >the machine run much more quietly.  > > : > >But I can find no information on www.hp.com about this. > >Neither can Google. > > ! > >Can anyone provide a pointer ?  > I > I can't find it either.  Maybe someone lost the web page (again).  I'll  > ask around for more info.    Maybe it was called the ZX6000?    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 15:26:30 GMT ) From: "brian" <brian__corbin@hotmail.com> # Subject: Re: Office Friendly RX2620 / Message-ID: <GY9rg.155$CS1.61@news.cpqcorp.net>    order # AD244A  4 There is mention of this in the RX2620 quickspec at F http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/12141_div/12141_div.HTML      K The rx2620 can also be deployed as a stand-alone pedestal (order # AD244A)  H appropriate for the office environment. When choosing to convert a rack I system to the office, the HA113A1 installation service is mandatory (the  H AD244A is not customer installable). Note: In an office deployment, the 4 rx2620 does not support redundant power and cooling.       brian       , <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote in message = news:1152194791.265825.297090@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...  >  > Robert Deininger wrote: L >> In article <1eeUs0g5Hhxa@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net >> (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:  >>L >> >I keep hearing about an "office friendly kit" or "office friendly model"J >> >of the IA64 RX2620, which disallows a redundant power supply but makes& >> >the machine run much more quietly. >> >; >> >But I can find no information on www.hp.com about this.  >> >Neither can Google.  >> >" >> >Can anyone provide a pointer ? >>J >> I can't find it either.  Maybe someone lost the web page (again).  I'll >> ask around for more info. > ! > Maybe it was called the ZX6000?  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 17:31:35 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> 0 Subject: Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked/ Message-ID: <XNbrg.161$rX1.44@news.cpqcorp.net>    Tom Linden wrote:  > SGI is dropping Itanium.  I This doesn't appear to be the case. SGI is adding x86 servers at the low  A end, while retaining Itanium for the mid-range and high-end (and  H upgrading to dual-core there). By adding x86 at the low end it's simply G moving in the direction of the same sort of CPU product mix HP has had  
 all along.  #  From ComputerWorld, June 26, 2006: I http://www.networkworld.com/news/2006/062606-sgi-adds-x86-servers-in.html   5 SGI adds x86 servers in bid to emerge from bankruptcy - By Patrick Thibodeau, Computerworld, 06/26/06   F Silicon Graphics said Monday that it's broadening its product line to G provide lower-cost options, including the introduction of an x86-based   server. ... D SGI has centered its products on the Itanium processor, but it facesH competition from makers of high-performance computing systems that build- clusters based on lower-cost x86 systems. ...  ... G SGI will continue to rely on Itanium for its high-end, memory-intensive G systems. The Mountain View, Calif.-based company is also expanding its  F midrange line with a cheaper alternative, the Altix 450 blade server. D According to SGI, the Altix 450 has a performance gain of about 2.5 D times that of the existing Altix 350. The new system uses Itanium 2 6 dual-core processors that can scale to 38 sockets. ...D SGI's big iron system, the Altix 4700, which can scale to more than G 1,000 processors on blade servers, has also been upgraded with Intel's  H latest dual-core Itanium processor. SGI said the change will double the & performance of the existing blade. ...   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 11:27:11 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Ken Lay dead , Message-ID: <4h4acfF1ommh0U1@individual.net>  , In article <44AC8CB1.FFF8BFEA@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:H > former Compaq director during the Alphacide has finally died. Not sureJ > if he had begun his prison sentence for the economic crimes he committed
 > at Enron.     D Of course not.  And, if you will remember back when he got convicted8 I told you he would not see the inside of a prison.  :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 22:16:25 +1000 $ From: Phaeton <phaeton@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: OT: Ken Lay dead J Message-ID: <44acff15$0$14117$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:. > In article <44AC8CB1.FFF8BFEA@teksavvy.com>,2 > 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:I >> former Compaq director during the Alphacide has finally died. Not sure K >> if he had begun his prison sentence for the economic crimes he committed  >> at Enron.   > F > Of course not.  And, if you will remember back when he got convicted: > I told you he would not see the inside of a prison.  :-)  : 	Well, hell is a prison, no :-) ?                    Csaba  E --------------------------------------------------------------------- F   CSABA I. HARANGOZO  |d|i|g|i|t|a|l|  phaeton at iinet dot net dot auE --------------------------------------------------------------------- <     EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:  D   The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 13:00:30 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Ken Lay dead , Message-ID: <4h4freF1ptln1U2@individual.net>  J In article <44acff15$0$14117$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,' 	Phaeton <phaeton@iinet.net.au> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:/ >> In article <44AC8CB1.FFF8BFEA@teksavvy.com>, 3 >> 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: J >>> former Compaq director during the Alphacide has finally died. Not sureL >>> if he had begun his prison sentence for the economic crimes he committed >>> at Enron.    >>  G >> Of course not.  And, if you will remember back when he got convicted ; >> I told you he would not see the inside of a prison.  :-)  > < > 	Well, hell is a prison, no :-) ?                    Csaba >   ( Karl Rahner S.J. believed hell is empty.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 07:05:08 -0700 ; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>  Subject: Re: OT: Ken Lay dead B Message-ID: <1152194707.021452.41460@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > F > Of course not.  And, if you will remember back when he got convicted: > I told you he would not see the inside of a prison.  :-) >   F If I were the authorities in charge I'd keep a close watch on the bodyB and maybe do a DNA check just to make sure it wasn't some cleverly% disquised (and well paid) double. ;-)    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 14:12:58 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Ken Lay dead , Message-ID: <4h4k3aF1p6so8U1@individual.net>  B In article <1152194707.021452.41460@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,> 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>G >> Of course not.  And, if you will remember back when he got convicted ; >> I told you he would not see the inside of a prison.  :-)  >> > H > If I were the authorities in charge I'd keep a close watch on the bodyD > and maybe do a DNA check just to make sure it wasn't some cleverly' > disquised (and well paid) double. ;-)   F I was waiting for comments like this to start....   What's that I hear( off in the distance?  Black helicopters?  A Hmmmm......    Maybe they can bury him right next to Jimmy Hoffa.     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 07:33:17 -0700 ; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>  Subject: Re: OT: Ken Lay dead C Message-ID: <1152196396.737043.294220@q16g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > In article <1152194707.021452.41460@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,@ > 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: > >  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>I > >> Of course not.  And, if you will remember back when he got convicted = > >> I told you he would not see the inside of a prison.  :-)  > >> > > J > > If I were the authorities in charge I'd keep a close watch on the bodyF > > and maybe do a DNA check just to make sure it wasn't some cleverly) > > disquised (and well paid) double. ;-)  > H > I was waiting for comments like this to start....   What's that I hear* > off in the distance?  Black helicopters? > C > Hmmmm......    Maybe they can bury him right next to Jimmy Hoffa.  >   E I'm not usually the "black helicopter" type, but I'd hate to have you  disappointed... :-P    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:55:16 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: OT: Ken Lay dead Q Message-ID: <OFB0AF45E9.DAE64A0E-ON852571A3.0051D3D0-852571A3.0051F729@metso.com>   : bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu wrote on 07/06/2006 10:12:58 AM:  D > In article <1152194707.021452.41460@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,B >    "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: > >  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >>I > >> Of course not.  And, if you will remember back when he got convicted = > >> I told you he would not see the inside of a prison.  :-)  > >> > > J > > If I were the authorities in charge I'd keep a close watch on the bodyF > > and maybe do a DNA check just to make sure it wasn't some cleverly) > > disquised (and well paid) double. ;-)  > H > I was waiting for comments like this to start....   What's that I hear* > off in the distance?  Black helicopters? > C > Hmmmm......    Maybe they can bury him right next to Jimmy Hoffa.   E Well, I heard on the news that at least one victim wants to check the & body to see that it is really cold....    Could someone have poisoned him?   >  > bill >  > --E > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three  wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 16:26:31 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Ken Lay dead , Message-ID: <4h4rtnF1n2pj4U3@individual.net>  Q In article <OFB0AF45E9.DAE64A0E-ON852571A3.0051D3D0-852571A3.0051F729@metso.com>,  	norm.raphael@metso.com writes:  >  > < > bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu wrote on 07/06/2006 10:12:58 AM: > E >> In article <1152194707.021452.41460@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, C >>    "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes:  >> > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >> >> J >> >> Of course not.  And, if you will remember back when he got convicted> >> >> I told you he would not see the inside of a prison.  :-) >> >>  >> >K >> > If I were the authorities in charge I'd keep a close watch on the body G >> > and maybe do a DNA check just to make sure it wasn't some cleverly * >> > disquised (and well paid) double. ;-) >>I >> I was waiting for comments like this to start....   What's that I hear + >> off in the distance?  Black helicopters?  >>D >> Hmmmm......    Maybe they can bury him right next to Jimmy Hoffa. > G > Well, I heard on the news that at least one victim wants to check the ( > body to see that it is really cold....  B Well, that's pretty silly.  Based on what he did to so many people) it seems he was cold long before he died.    > " > Could someone have poisoned him?  E Yep, here come the black helicopters. I'll bet they used that secret, + undetectable, untraceable CIA poison.   :-)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:49:45 -0700 4 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet02_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com>< Subject: Problem mounting MSA1000 in Compaq/HP H9A15-MC rack% Message-ID: <1152200912.327565@smirk>   > I tried posting this in comp.sys.dec and comp.sys.hp.hardware,: but didn't get any response.    Are any VMS users using an& MSA1000?   How do you have it mounted?   *****   9 I need some help mounting an HP MSA1000 disk array into a : Compaq/HP H9A15-MC rack.   My problem is that the supplied slides do not fit in the rack.  E According to the MSA1000 QuickSpecs, the H9A15-xx rack is a supported M cabinet: http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11621_na/11621_na.html   $ The MSA1000 Installation Guide says:  B    "To help you install your MSA1000, each MSA1000 is shipped with@    a rack-mounting kit that includes the required components for=    quick installation in Compaq-branded, HP-branded, and most =    square- and round-hole third-party racks.   The adjustable ?    feature of the rack rails enables installation in racks with 4    depths of 69.90 to 73.81 cm (27.52 to 29.06 in)."  9 The problem is that my Compaq H9A15-MC rack (the same one < specified for AlphaServers such as the ES-40) has a depth of8 25" between the front and rear rails.   Also, the slides4 simply do not fit to either the front or rear rails.  @ First, the MSA1000 slides do not have a right-angle bracket like> most slides, but are designed to butt right up to the holes in; the rack's vertical rails.   However, the so-called "return < flange" on the H9A15 rails prevent this.   The return flange@ offset is 0.27", and would need to be 0.5" for the rails to fit.; BTW, a good introduction to the use and terminology of rack : slides is from Accuride, "Designing Slides Into Electronic Enclosures".C http://www.accuride.com/products/pdfs/designing_slides_contents.pdf   < This problem is illustrated in a couple of photographs and a drawing:  3 http://www.NelsonUSA.com/misc/rack/Rail_1_Front.jpg   = The first photo is looking from the front of the rack towards ? the left-hand rail, showing the MSA1000 slide propped in place. = It is pushed as far to the left as it will go, stopped by the = "return flange" in the center of the photo.   As you can see, = the mounting holes/screws of the MSA1000 slide do not line up  with the holes in the rack.   ! The second photo is from the top:   1 http://www.NelsonUSA.com/misc/rack/Rail_1_Top.jpg   > You can see how the slide is pushed against the return flange,: but its mounting screws/holes line up with the edge of the# front rail, not the mounting holes.   A The third image is a dimensioned drawing of the H9A15-MC mounting   rail, as seen in the two photos:  5 http://www.NelsonUSA.com/misc/rack/H9A15_Top_Drwg.jpg   > Note that the return flange is almost exactly in line with the8 mounting holes.   This makes it impossible to install an* MSA1000 (or similar) slide into this rack.  > Even if the H9A15 did not have the return flanges, there would: still be the problem of length.   The distance between the9 front and rear rails of the H9A15 is 25", but the MSA1000 ; rails will only adjust between approximately 27.5" and 29".   0 The length problem is illustrated by two photos:  5 http://www.NelsonUSA.com/misc/rack/Rail_1_Overall.jpg 2 http://www.NelsonUSA.com/misc/rack/Rail_1_Rear.jpg  = The piece near the rear end of the slide moves back and forth = to accommodate different depths.   In the photos, it is shown ( in the most forward (shortest) position.   I have two guesses:   ; 1. The design of the H9A15 rack was changed somewhere along $     the line, and I have an old one.  8 2. The documentation is flat-out wrong about the MSA1000     fitting in an H9A15.  ; Has anyone successfully mounted an MSA1000 in an H9A15 rack  with the supplied rails?  : Is my H9A15 rack different than others with the same model number?   : Does anyone have an H9A15 rack with different rails than I have?    Thanks,  Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 06:41:50 -0700   From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>% Subject: Re: Strange shadow disk hang B Message-ID: <1152193309.459260.22970@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>  G PWAIT$SDA will also tell you if a specified process has outstanding XQP  operations.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 03:00:56 -0700   From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? C Message-ID: <1152180056.495684.155660@q16g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>   B I see that Stephen Hoffman's latest blog entry concerns this topic  D http://h20325.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/archive/2006/07/05/1261.html   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 11:11:09 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? ) Message-ID: <e8ir4d$hov$2@news.mdx.ac.uk>   q In article <+T3WgOcf4nuS@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: a >In article <4h1v95F1o4n29U1@individual.net>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >>  I >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one other difference is that with J >> VMS you are not getting "source listings" in the same sense as Linux orL >> BSD.  You can't take what you get from HP and actually build VMS from it.K >> In fact, I seem to remember someone (the last time this subject came up, E >> sigh....) stating that all of the source is not contained in those  >> listings. >>   > F >   Once upon a time a separate, compilable source, was available at aA >   much higher price.  I don't know if there were any customers.  > A >   There have always been a few routines missing from the source F >   listings, for a variety of reasons.  I recall when lib$fid_to_nameE >   was not in the listings or documentation.  In the next .0 release 6 >   it was in both the listings and the documentation. > I >   But there are tools in the DECUS library (or are they on the Freeware ? >   CD now?) for converting listing files to compilable source.  > H >   In principle, one need only code replacements for those few routines >   that are missing.  > L However, unless HP were to renounce all rights to VMS, building it from the I source listings and then distributing it would violate HP's copyright and . introduce the person doing it to HP's lawyers.      
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 11:04:19 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? ) Message-ID: <e8iqnj$hov$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   q In article <0c+RTl9vVlkQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: o >In article <1152113696.778671.282890@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes:  >>  F >> The design and ideas are not a secret, i was refering to the sourceF >> code, of course with the design and ideas one could replicate a vms* >> clone, apart from freevms , nobody has. >> I wondering why, thats all. > M Since VMS is a proprietary operating system the people working on freevms are K having to reverse engineer VMS. As I understand it, noone who has seen the  L source can contribute to freevms without the risk of their being accused of N breach of HP's copyright when a piece of code they write to implement some VMS? functionality appears very similar to the code actually in VMS. N Producing a clone of VMS free of all legal encumbrances is the goal of freevms not stealing VMS from HP.   O Hence, as far as freevms development is concerned, it is probably a good thing  J that the sources to VMS are not too widely available since otherwise thereG would probably be no VMS interested talented developers who hadn't been ' contaminated by having seen the source.       
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University          D >   Right.  Get them th source and then the BLISS compiler, Macro-327 >   compiler, and Linker will just spring up overnight.  > F >   Judging by the speed at which the FreeVMS folks are progressing on& >   thier BLISS compiler, I think not. >    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 05:30:55 -0700 ( From: "geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com>/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? B Message-ID: <1152189054.474795.67840@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > E > No, they wouldn't.  Having access to the source of VMS is not going E > to magically transform basement nerds with no social life into real H > programmers.  And the real programmers among the open source community% > already write better free spftware.  > I > >                                                               and the L > > universities could use the sources in their education thereby making the > > students know VMS. > I > Could, but wouldn't.  The two reasons that pop immediately into my mind H > are the lack of a decent textbook to go along with those sources and a3 > total lack of interest in VMS in the first place.   F I am sure some universities somewhere in the world contain vms as part2 of a operating systems module in computer science.G It reminds me of the growing perception that java is dwarving out other  languages, which is not true. < I thought this article might be of interest in that respect.B http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html         >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 07:32:06 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <5VTIf6quRueY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <44ac5c39$0$67256$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>, Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes:  > G > You still don't get it.  The VMS sources are full of examples of the  J > usage of the documented interfaces, e.g., as far as I remember there is H > no usage of undocumented features in the directory command, and I did ; > not use any undocumented interfaces for the code I wrote.   A    The VMS doc set is full of examples of usage of the documented G    interfaces, and the VMS system disk has a great many examples of the C    usage of documented interfaces, and published books have a great H    many examples of the usage documented interfaces, and code available D    at many sites on the web is full of examples of the useage of the    documented interfaces.   C    And I try not to hire "programmers" who can only copy and change B    existing examples.  Programmer who read, understand, and follow'    the documentation write better code.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 12:56:53 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <4h4fklF1ptln1U1@individual.net>  B In article <1152189054.474795.67840@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,+ 	"geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>F >> No, they wouldn't.  Having access to the source of VMS is not goingF >> to magically transform basement nerds with no social life into realI >> programmers.  And the real programmers among the open source community & >> already write better free spftware. >>J >> >                                                               and theM >> > universities could use the sources in their education thereby making the  >> > students know VMS.  >>J >> Could, but wouldn't.  The two reasons that pop immediately into my mindI >> are the lack of a decent textbook to go along with those sources and a 4 >> total lack of interest in VMS in the first place. > H > I am sure some universities somewhere in the world contain vms as part4 > of a operating systems module in computer science.  
 Name one!!  I > It reminds me of the growing perception that java is dwarving out other  > languages, which is not true.   C It is in education.  And when it becomes the only tool known by the @ people in the workforce, what then? (Actually, that won't happenE because like other languages it will fall out of vogue to be replaced > by the next "better than sliced bread" language of the month.)  > > I thought this article might be of interest in that respect.D > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html   Guy's an idiot.     B    "Instead what I'd like to claim is that Java is not, generally,=     a hard enough programming language that it can be used to E     discriminate between great programmers and mediocre programmers."   A Since when did it become the purpose of a programming language to B "discriminate between great programmers and mediocre programmers"?  D   "If I may be so brash, it has been my humble experience that thereE    are two things traditionally taught in universities as a part of a H    computer science curriculum which many people just never really fully'    comprehend: pointers and recursion."   H Must have gone to the wrong schools.  Both subjects are well representedJ here and used frequently by students in projects at the upper levels which, tends to show that they did understand them.  F    "You used to start out in college with a course in data structures,E     with linked lists and hash tables and whatnot, with extensive use      of pointers."   E Still do.  Java can do both linked-lists and hash-tables.  And it can D do the same jobs in what it (and apparently the industry) thinks areA better methods.  (Don't get me wrong, I hate Java but I am merely D pointing out this guys mistaken ideas regarding the current state of CS education.)  7     "Those courses were often used as weedout courses:"   C Say what!!!  No course in college is intended as "weedout courses". ? The purpose of college isn't to keep the numbers of people in a @ particular field down (well, in some fields, maybe, but not CS.)  C It just gets worse from here.  Actually, he sounds like someone who D was probably told by one of his professors that he should be looking into a differnt major.    C Just to get this back into line with the kind of things that I have E often discussed here, this is yet another example of how badly people G outside the education field understand it.  And, until they do, ti will G continue to move in it's own direction ignoring any advice or direction C from those outsiders.  Much to the detriment of both.  (and VMS :-)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 07:39:26 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? 3 Message-ID: <i9rFmxSIVu19@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <1152180056.495684.155660@q16g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>, "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> writes:D > I see that Stephen Hoffman's latest blog entry concerns this topic > F > http://h20325.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/archive/2006/07/05/1261.html >   )    What's he been using to edit his blog?   '    "regularly sees &ldquo;forks.&rdquo"   )    This representation from Netscape 8.1.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 06:13:29 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? ) Message-ID: <op.tb9q0rjezgicya@hyrrokkin>   2 On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 05:39:26 -0700, Bob Koehler  =  0 <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:  I > In article <1152180056.495684.155660@q16g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>, "I=  an  =    > Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> writes: E >> I see that Stephen Hoffman's latest blog entry concerns this topic  >>G >> http://h20325.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/archive/2006/07/05/1261.html  >> > + >    What's he been using to edit his blog?  > ) >    "regularly sees &ldquo;forks.&rdquo"  > + >    This representation from Netscape 8.1.    Ditto for Opera 9.0 and IE6.0    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 13:29:54 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <4h4hiiF1ptln1U3@individual.net>  ) In article <op.tb9q0rjezgicya@hyrrokkin>, & 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:4 > On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 05:39:26 -0700, Bob Koehler  = > 2 > <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote: > J >> In article <1152180056.495684.155660@q16g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>, "I= > an  =  >   >> Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> writes:F >>> I see that Stephen Hoffman's latest blog entry concerns this topic >>> H >>> http://h20325.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/archive/2006/07/05/1261.html >>>  >>, >>    What's he been using to edit his blog? >>* >>    "regularly sees &ldquo;forks.&rdquo" >>, >>    This representation from Netscape 8.1. >  > Ditto for Opera 9.0 and IE6.0   A I can't tell you what caused it, but I can tell you what is wrong  with it.  ! &rdquo; = HTML right double quote   &ldquo; = HTML left double quote   However, his page contains: 
   &amp;rdquo;  and 
   &amp;ldquo;   4 Is that a hoot or what!!!  Ain't HTML just wunerful.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 15:32:02 +0200 + From: Martin Vorlaender <mv@pdv-systeme.de> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <4h4hmeF1ppcmiU1@individual.net>   Tom Linden schrieb:  > Bob Koehler wrote: >> "Ian Miller" writes: F >>> I see that Stephen Hoffman's latest blog entry concerns this topicH >>> http://h20325.www2.hp.com/blogs/hoffman/archive/2006/07/05/1261.html >>, >>    What's he been using to edit his blog? >>* >>    "regularly sees &ldquo;forks.&rdquo" >>, >>    This representation from Netscape 8.1. >  > Ditto for Opera 9.0 and IE6.0   A It should show up like that in any browser: the page's source has A "&amp;ldquo;forks.&amp;rdquo;". Escaped once too much, I'd think.    cu, 	    Martin  --  D One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  OpenVMS rules!7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de H One OS to bring them all      | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 16:13:25 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? = Message-ID: <44ad1a6a$0$60785$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>    geletine wrote: H > I am sure some universities somewhere in the world contain vms as part4 > of a operating systems module in computer science.I > It reminds me of the growing perception that java is dwarving out other  > languages, which is not true. > > I thought this article might be of interest in that respect.D > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html    F I think Joel makes one major flaw:  He thinks all CS students must be I excellent at handling complex algorithms and designing complex programs.  I   Guess what?  Most programs do things like ERP, CRM, tax, payroll, etc.  ?   The best guys for designing such software might not be great  H programmers in Joel's mind.  It might be people great at designing user H interfaces or databases.  I fact such tasks might get great programmers C sick greener pastures.  Thus, Joel may need great programmers, but  : others might be better of hiring people with other skills.  C (The experience from fly by wire plans like Airbuses is that it is  H difficult to design the user interface in such a way that pilots do not H make errors.  A couple of Airbuses have crashed because of that.  To my C knowledge no Airbus has crashed because the software did not do as  
 expected.)   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 07:28:26 -0700 ( From: "geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com>/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? B Message-ID: <1152196105.264350.197250@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > D >    "Instead what I'd like to claim is that Java is not, generally,? >     a hard enough programming language that it can be used to G >     discriminate between great programmers and mediocre programmers."  > C > Since when did it become the purpose of a programming language to D > "discriminate between great programmers and mediocre programmers"?  D I presume he means with java , how do you know if someone is good atF programming in general, if a lot of subjects are not included, using a/ harder language like c  would be a better test.    > F >   "If I may be so brash, it has been my humble experience that thereG >    are two things traditionally taught in universities as a part of a J >    computer science curriculum which many people just never really fully) >    comprehend: pointers and recursion."  > J > Must have gone to the wrong schools.  Both subjects are well representedL > here and used frequently by students in projects at the upper levels which. > tends to show that they did understand them. > B he obviously picked half a dozen and decided what they include and don;t.  H >    "You used to start out in college with a course in data structures,G >     with linked lists and hash tables and whatnot, with extensive use  >     of pointers."  > G > Still do.  Java can do both linked-lists and hash-tables.  And it can F > do the same jobs in what it (and apparently the industry) thinks areC > better methods.  (Don't get me wrong, I hate Java but I am merely F > pointing out this guys mistaken ideas regarding the current state of > CS education.) >  same as my last answer...   9 >     "Those courses were often used as weedout courses:"  > E > Say what!!!  No course in college is intended as "weedout courses". A > The purpose of college isn't to keep the numbers of people in a B > particular field down (well, in some fields, maybe, but not CS.) > > I thought he meant weedout in the sense . get more students toD graduate, make the university seem great and wonderfull as more have) graduated in CS, by simplying the course.   E > It just gets worse from here.  Actually, he sounds like someone who F > was probably told by one of his professors that he should be looking > into a differnt major. > / >From his biography he seems quite succesfull..   E > Just to get this back into line with the kind of things that I have G > often discussed here, this is yet another example of how badly people I > outside the education field understand it.  And, until they do, ti will I > continue to move in it's own direction ignoring any advice or direction E > from those outsiders.  Much to the detriment of both.  (and VMS :-)  > ' Does University of Scranton teach vms ?    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 14:55:23 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <4h4miqF1p2shbU1@individual.net>  B In article <1152196105.264350.197250@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,+ 	"geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>E >>    "Instead what I'd like to claim is that Java is not, generally, @ >>     a hard enough programming language that it can be used toH >>     discriminate between great programmers and mediocre programmers." >>D >> Since when did it become the purpose of a programming language toE >> "discriminate between great programmers and mediocre programmers"?  > F > I presume he means with java , how do you know if someone is good atH > programming in general, if a lot of subjects are not included, using a1 > harder language like c  would be a better test.   E The language has nothing to do with learning concepts.  You can teach G concepts using pseudo-languages that never compile or actually execute. I Understanding concepts is what makes good programmers (actually, Computer I Scientists as colleges, witht he possible exception of Community Colleges I are not here to create "programmers".  That's what tech schools are for.) I He specifically laments Java's hiding of the pointer concept.  The modern F methodologies all play largly into the concept of "hiding".  You don'tF reveal or allow access to the programmer for anything beyond what theyG need to get the job done.  You may not like it, but it is the currently E accepted paradigm and Java isn't the only language to do it.  Most OO  lives within the same paradigm.    >  >>G >>   "If I may be so brash, it has been my humble experience that there H >>    are two things traditionally taught in universities as a part of aK >>    computer science curriculum which many people just never really fully * >>    comprehend: pointers and recursion." >>K >> Must have gone to the wrong schools.  Both subjects are well represented M >> here and used frequently by students in projects at the upper levels which / >> tends to show that they did understand them.  >>D > he obviously picked half a dozen and decided what they include and > don;t.  : Obviously didn't pick even one with an accredited program.   > I >>    "You used to start out in college with a course in data structures, H >>     with linked lists and hash tables and whatnot, with extensive use >>     of pointers." >>H >> Still do.  Java can do both linked-lists and hash-tables.  And it canG >> do the same jobs in what it (and apparently the industry) thinks are D >> better methods.  (Don't get me wrong, I hate Java but I am merelyG >> pointing out this guys mistaken ideas regarding the current state of  >> CS education.)  >> > same as my last answer...     See my comment above as well!!      > : >>     "Those courses were often used as weedout courses:" >>F >> Say what!!!  No course in college is intended as "weedout courses".B >> The purpose of college isn't to keep the numbers of people in aC >> particular field down (well, in some fields, maybe, but not CS.)  >>@ > I thought he meant weedout in the sense . get more students toF > graduate, make the university seem great and wonderfull as more have+ > graduated in CS, by simplying the course.   J No, he makes his point quite clear.  He is apparently some kind of elitistI and thinks CS programs should limit the number of people they graduate by L making things difficult for the student rather than conentrating on actually& teaching them what they came to learn.  B     "they were so hard that anyone that couldn't handle the mental,      challenge of a CS degree would give up"  L Elitist crap.  The purpose of the courses is to teach concepts that studentsJ in all liklihood have never been introduced to before, not to drive into aK different discipline.  I'll bet he thinks women don't have what it takes to  do this stuff either.    > F >> It just gets worse from here.  Actually, he sounds like someone whoG >> was probably told by one of his professors that he should be looking  >> into a differnt major.  >>0 >>From his biography he seems quite succesfull.. > F >> Just to get this back into line with the kind of things that I haveH >> often discussed here, this is yet another example of how badly peopleJ >> outside the education field understand it.  And, until they do, ti willJ >> continue to move in it's own direction ignoring any advice or directionF >> from those outsiders.  Much to the detriment of both.  (and VMS :-) >>  ) > Does University of Scranton teach vms ?   B No.  We also don't teach Windows.  We use Unix primarily in our OS@ courses because texts and usable examples are available.  But weB don't teach Unix either.  We teach Operating System Principles and@ Concepts that are equally applicable to any operating system. If@ you want to learn how to use a specific operating system that isB what vo/tech schools are for.  Large portions of the computer workA done here used to be done on VMS.  VMS use waned here at the same C time it waned everywhere else.  I have done everything I can to try A and keep the students at least familiar with VMS.  Without a very @ concentrated effort to get back into the education market by HP,A nothing more can be expected.  Because they also don't understand B the market any better than others (including many posters here) it is not likely to happen.     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 08:52:29 -0700 ( From: "geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com>/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? A Message-ID: <1152201148.586929.29290@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:G > The language has nothing to do with learning concepts.  You can teach I > concepts using pseudo-languages that never compile or actually execute. K > Understanding concepts is what makes good programmers (actually, Computer K > Scientists as colleges, witht he possible exception of Community Colleges K > are not here to create "programmers".  That's what tech schools are for.) K > He specifically laments Java's hiding of the pointer concept.  The modern H > methodologies all play largly into the concept of "hiding".  You don'tH > reveal or allow access to the programmer for anything beyond what theyI > need to get the job done.  You may not like it, but it is the currently G > accepted paradigm and Java isn't the only language to do it.  Most OO ! > lives within the same paradigm.  >  i cannot disagree... >  > L > No, he makes his point quite clear.  He is apparently some kind of elitistK > and thinks CS programs should limit the number of people they graduate by N > making things difficult for the student rather than conentrating on actually( > teaching them what they came to learn. > D >     "they were so hard that anyone that couldn't handle the mental. >      challenge of a CS degree would give up" > N > Elitist crap.  The purpose of the courses is to teach concepts that studentsL > in all liklihood have never been introduced to before, not to drive into aM > different discipline.  I'll bet he thinks women don't have what it takes to  > do this stuff either.  >  very good point  > D > No.  We also don't teach Windows.  We use Unix primarily in our OSB > courses because texts and usable examples are available.  But weD > don't teach Unix either.  We teach Operating System Principles andB > Concepts that are equally applicable to any operating system. IfB > you want to learn how to use a specific operating system that isD > what vo/tech schools are for.  Large portions of the computer workC > done here used to be done on VMS.  VMS use waned here at the same E > time it waned everywhere else.  I have done everything I can to try C > and keep the students at least familiar with VMS.  Without a very B > concentrated effort to get back into the education market by HP,C > nothing more can be expected.  Because they also don't understand D > the market any better than others (including many posters here) it > is not likely to happen. > D The market is not excatly clear cut, all skills are needed in the IT	 industry.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 16:18:39 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <4h4revF1n2pj4U1@individual.net>  A In article <1152201148.586929.29290@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, + 	"geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:H >> The language has nothing to do with learning concepts.  You can teachJ >> concepts using pseudo-languages that never compile or actually execute.L >> Understanding concepts is what makes good programmers (actually, ComputerL >> Scientists as colleges, witht he possible exception of Community CollegesL >> are not here to create "programmers".  That's what tech schools are for.)L >> He specifically laments Java's hiding of the pointer concept.  The modernI >> methodologies all play largly into the concept of "hiding".  You don't I >> reveal or allow access to the programmer for anything beyond what they J >> need to get the job done.  You may not like it, but it is the currentlyH >> accepted paradigm and Java isn't the only language to do it.  Most OO" >> lives within the same paradigm. >> > i cannot disagree... >> >>M >> No, he makes his point quite clear.  He is apparently some kind of elitist L >> and thinks CS programs should limit the number of people they graduate byO >> making things difficult for the student rather than conentrating on actually ) >> teaching them what they came to learn.  >>E >>     "they were so hard that anyone that couldn't handle the mental / >>      challenge of a CS degree would give up"  >>O >> Elitist crap.  The purpose of the courses is to teach concepts that students M >> in all liklihood have never been introduced to before, not to drive into a N >> different discipline.  I'll bet he thinks women don't have what it takes to >> do this stuff either. >> > very good point  >>E >> No.  We also don't teach Windows.  We use Unix primarily in our OS C >> courses because texts and usable examples are available.  But we E >> don't teach Unix either.  We teach Operating System Principles and C >> Concepts that are equally applicable to any operating system. If C >> you want to learn how to use a specific operating system that is E >> what vo/tech schools are for.  Large portions of the computer work D >> done here used to be done on VMS.  VMS use waned here at the sameF >> time it waned everywhere else.  I have done everything I can to tryD >> and keep the students at least familiar with VMS.  Without a veryC >> concentrated effort to get back into the education market by HP, D >> nothing more can be expected.  Because they also don't understandE >> the market any better than others (including many posters here) it  >> is not likely to happen.  >>F > The market is not excatly clear cut, all skills are needed in the IT > industry.   G On the contrary, the market is clear to anyone who is willing to go out G and look at it just like you would any other market.  I have had people G here tell me I live in an ivory tower (an old idea often espoused about F the academic environment) but it often seems that others live in theirG own ivory towers as well.  Many people talk about what education is all H abolut while they actually have no understanding of it at all.  And whenG decisions about how to deal with the education world are made using the F information drawn from this flawed knowledge the education market justE chooses to ignore it.  It is not that VMS doesn't have a place in the H academic world, quite the contrary, there are definite places where whatH it has inside is a perfect fit, but the outside where it interfaces withF academia needs to be trimmed to fit so that it matches the educationalG model.  Education is not going to change to fit some non-academics idea H of what education should be any more than Wall Street is going to changeF to match the model of the $.05 lemonade stand.  At least until a shortI while ago there were many in academia willing to pursue this, the numbers  are dwindling.   bill    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 16:22:55 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <4h4rmuF1n2pj4U2@individual.net>  = In article <44ad1a6a$0$60785$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, . 	Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: > geletine wrote: I >> I am sure some universities somewhere in the world contain vms as part 5 >> of a operating systems module in computer science. J >> It reminds me of the growing perception that java is dwarving out other  >> languages, which is not true.? >> I thought this article might be of interest in that respect. E >> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html  >  > H > I think Joel makes one major flaw:  He thinks all CS students must be K > excellent at handling complex algorithms and designing complex programs.    G Actually, it's a lot easier to sum up his major error as it is the same E as many others.  he seems to think it is the sole purpose of colleges D to create programmers for the job market.  He is wrong.  He, like soE many others, has no understanding of what education at the university  level is all about.   K >   Guess what?  Most programs do things like ERP, CRM, tax, payroll, etc.  A >   The best guys for designing such software might not be great  J > programmers in Joel's mind.  It might be people great at designing user J > interfaces or databases.  I fact such tasks might get great programmers E > sick greener pastures.  Thus, Joel may need great programmers, but  < > others might be better of hiring people with other skills. > E > (The experience from fly by wire plans like Airbuses is that it is  J > difficult to design the user interface in such a way that pilots do not J > make errors.  A couple of Airbuses have crashed because of that.  To my E > knowledge no Airbus has crashed because the software did not do as   > expected.)  ? Not a particularly good example as it is usually easier to just > blame the dead pilot than to actually try to find out if there is a flaw in the plane itself.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 13:13:40 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <44AD44BF.2A0C77E9@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:C > I can't tell you what caused it, but I can tell you what is wrong 
 > with it.   > However, his page contains:  >   &amp;rdquo;   I I suspect that according to Microsoft standards, this is perfectly valid.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 19:26:10 +0200 + From: Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? = Message-ID: <44ad4797$0$67256$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:? > In article <44ad1a6a$0$60785$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, 0 > 	Karsten Nyblad <nospam@nospam.nospam> writes: >> geletine wrote:J >>> I am sure some universities somewhere in the world contain vms as part6 >>> of a operating systems module in computer science.K >>> It reminds me of the growing perception that java is dwarving out other ! >>> languages, which is not true. @ >>> I thought this article might be of interest in that respect.F >>> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html >>I >> I think Joel makes one major flaw:  He thinks all CS students must be  L >> excellent at handling complex algorithms and designing complex programs.  > I > Actually, it's a lot easier to sum up his major error as it is the same G > as many others.  he seems to think it is the sole purpose of colleges F > to create programmers for the job market.  He is wrong.  He, like soG > many others, has no understanding of what education at the university  > level is all about.   G Well, Universities should skills that last beyond the first few years,  G but universities do get their money for giving students qualifications  @ that can be used on the job marked for the rest of the students  professional carrier.   H But universities are not geared towards teaching specific products, and 3 I think it would end a major failure if they tried.   L >>   Guess what?  Most programs do things like ERP, CRM, tax, payroll, etc. B >>   The best guys for designing such software might not be great K >> programmers in Joel's mind.  It might be people great at designing user  K >> interfaces or databases.  I fact such tasks might get great programmers  F >> sick greener pastures.  Thus, Joel may need great programmers, but = >> others might be better of hiring people with other skills.  >>F >> (The experience from fly by wire plans like Airbuses is that it is K >> difficult to design the user interface in such a way that pilots do not  K >> make errors.  A couple of Airbuses have crashed because of that.  To my  F >> knowledge no Airbus has crashed because the software did not do as 
 >> expected.)  > A > Not a particularly good example as it is usually easier to just @ > blame the dead pilot than to actually try to find out if there  > is a flaw in the plane itself.  @ If an airplane crashes because the pilots user interface if too I difficult to use, then the producer of the plane is to blame.  It is the  ? producer that could enhance the user interface, not the pilots.   F This is just like student should be taught that is not the users that G are stupid.  It is the user interface that is not good enough.  And it  F is not the professors that are stupid when they do not understand the E papers written by the students.  It is the students that should have  $ been writing easier readable papers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 19:43:22 +0200 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? ; Message-ID: <578e9$44ad4bbb$50db5015$31432@news.hispeed.ch>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > In article <1152189054.474795.67840@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,- > 	"geletine" <adaviscg1@hotmail.com> writes: ? >> I thought this article might be of interest in that respect. E >> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html  >  > Guy's an idiot.    >   @ I came to this conclusion back in DEC-2001, which I posted here.   --- quote my post ---    Oh, more of Joel's rubbish at 9 http://www.JoelonSoftware.com/articles/fog0000000073.html   E "There are far too many people around that can work on something and  D not really care one way or the other. Even if they are passionately H negative, this can be just as good a sign. "I was working on installing I Foo Bar Mark II for my previous employer, but he was such a dope!" These  * are good candidates that we want to hire."  H Sorry, but anyone who puts the knife into a former employer in that way D puts themself straight into the "applicant failed" category for me. C What's that person going to be like when dealing with customers or  
 end-users?  I There must be a million ways of expressing dissatisfaction with a former  & employer without resorting to insults.   ---end my quote---   http://tinyurl.com/gm4fg  ' if you want to see the full discussion.    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 17:56:11 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)/ Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <4h515rF1ocrqhU1@individual.net>  , In article <44AD4A56.39FD2215@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:L >> He specifically laments Java's hiding of the pointer concept.  The modernI >> methodologies all play largly into the concept of "hiding".  You don't I >> reveal or allow access to the programmer for anything beyond what they J >> need to get the job done.  You may not like it, but it is the currentlyH >> accepted paradigm and Java isn't the only language to do it.  Most OO" >> lives within the same paradigm. >  > D > The problem is that it generates programmers who don't know what aI > computer really is. When the time comes to debug problems , someone who G > does not understand computers  is is far less able to debug problems.  > G > Example: When PSION released its (last) very proprietary PDA, some of I > the newbie PSION employees were bragging about it being all C++ and OO. H > When asked about proprietary file formats so that applications outsideG > the PSION could be developped to access those documents, the response D > was "there are no files and no file formats on the unit, it is allJ > "stream store".  (Even though once could use YMODEM to transfer files to > a different platform). > A > When asked about using any language to call the on board system D > services, the resonse from one of the afficionados was that it wasI > impossible because the machine was all Object Oriented and you couldn't F > possibly run non C++ code on that chip. (ARM architecture). This guyJ > clearly did not understand the concept of a compiler, linker and machine@ > code or the fact that C++ generated "Normal" machine code withG > subroutines and entry points and argumentsas well as data structures.   L And what does that have to do with what is taught in University CS programs?I Where did he get his degree?  Does he even have one?  It took less than a K few seconds to find out that writing and installing additional applications G on a PSION is trivial, even considering the obscure OS they use (EPOC).   K So, unless you care to provide this guys credentials, his lack of knowledge I is really rather irrelevant to anything.  Heck, you didn't even provide a 8 name, so we really don't know that this guy even exists.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 01:45:27 -0700 * From: "Part Pic" <mydream.666@hotmail.com>& Subject: There is a good photo websiteB Message-ID: <1152175527.610301.51980@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  @ If you are interested in the computer,you can come to my picture www.flickr.com/photos/partpic/. > We are the professional photograph website about the computer.= there are o lot of picture of some kinds of computer ,include * BIM,SUN,HP,EMC,HDS and others.Welcome you!   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 11:47:03 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>* Subject: Re: There is a good photo website0 Message-ID: <12aqc09mll9ck17@corp.supernews.com>   A search returns this:  1 "partpics doesn't have any photos about digital."    Too bad.   Syltrem   6 "Part Pic" <mydream.666@hotmail.com> wrote in message < news:1152175527.610301.51980@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...B > If you are interested in the computer,you can come to my picture! > www.flickr.com/photos/partpic/. @ > We are the professional photograph website about the computer.? > there are o lot of picture of some kinds of computer ,include , > BIM,SUN,HP,EMC,HDS and others.Welcome you! >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 02:34:45 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> # Subject: TOY clock battery question , Message-ID: <44ACAF02.ADE4BC63@teksavvy.com>  - Had a series of power failures the other day.   C My 4000-600 (VAX, of course) would get to the VMS asking me for the H time. (and other nodes would show a status of "NEW" (instead of MEMBER) ! for that node in a SHOW CLUSTER).   G This means that the 4000-600 had remembered its NVRAM settings since it @ knew where to boot from, and knew that I had set it to autoboot.  A I have since changed the battery. The old battery pack provided a 6 voltage of 2.5vdc  (3 nicads should provide about 3.6)  I Could a voltage of 2.5 explain a surviving NVRAM , but failed TOY clock ?       D The FAQ also mentions a failed "Dallas" chip.  In such a case, wouldA "SET TIME" (which reads from the TOY clock) exhibit problems on a  running system ?   if I do 
 $SHOW TIME	 $SET TIME 
 $SHOW TIME  E and I see normal values, then can I rule out a failed "Dallas" chip ?     B BTW, the FAQ was a very good read, those to Hoff for that section.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 15:29:57 +0200 3 From: Michael Unger <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com> ' Subject: Re: TOY clock battery question , Message-ID: <4h4hviF1pd7o1U1@individual.net>  & On 2006-07-06 08:34, "JF Mezei" wrote:   > [...]  > C > I have since changed the battery. The old battery pack provided a 8 > voltage of 2.5vdc  (3 nicads should provide about 3.6) > K > Could a voltage of 2.5 explain a surviving NVRAM , but failed TOY clock ? 2                                              ^^^^^  F Should be described as "a battery-buffered low-power CMOS RAM chip" --? "flash" technology isn't used for RAM areas within clock chips.   A AFAIK a rather low voltage (about 2V) is sufficient to retain the G contents of a CMOS meory cell but isn't sufficient to keep a clock chip D running (CMOS as well, usually on the very same semiconductor chip).   > [...]  > 6 > The FAQ also mentions a failed "Dallas" chip.  [...](                                   ^^^^^^  > Dallas Semiconductor has been bought by MAXIM a while ago; see& <http://www.maxim-ic.com> for details.   > [...]    Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. 5 My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 06:50:53 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ' Subject: Re: TOY clock battery question ) Message-ID: <op.tb9sq30rzgicya@hyrrokkin>   4 On Thu, 06 Jul 2006 06:29:57 -0700, Michael Unger  =  & <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com> wrote:  ( > On 2006-07-06 08:34, "JF Mezei" wrote: >  >> [...] >>D >> I have since changed the battery. The old battery pack provided a9 >> voltage of 2.5vdc  (3 nicads should provide about 3.6)  >>I >> Could a voltage of 2.5 explain a surviving NVRAM , but failed TOY clo=  ck  =    >> ?4 >                                              ^^^^^ > I > Should be described as "a battery-buffered low-power CMOS RAM chip" --=   A > "flash" technology isn't used for RAM areas within clock chips.  > C > AFAIK a rather low voltage (about 2V) is sufficient to retain the I > contents of a CMOS meory cell but isn't sufficient to keep a clock chi=  p F > running (CMOS as well, usually on the very same semiconductor chip). >  >> [...] >>7 >> The FAQ also mentions a failed "Dallas" chip.  [...] * >                                   ^^^^^^ > @ > Dallas Semiconductor has been bought by MAXIM a while ago; see( > <http://www.maxim-ic.com> for details.  I I replaced one of these once, and AIR it has a lithium battery onboard, =   =   which H when coming to the end of its life could tolerate short power outages  =   until it1 lost its charge.  You should replace the circuit.  >  >> [...] > 	 > Michael  >    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Jul 2006 07:09:10 -0700   From: "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net>' Subject: Re: TOY clock battery question A Message-ID: <1152194948.899051.94700@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   C Several models of vax used a Dallas chip which had a clock and some C battery backed ram in it. Eventually the battery would fail and the  whole thing was replaced.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.373 ************************