1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 08 Jul 2006	Volume 2006 : Issue 376       Contents:P A consistent, even playing field - That's all I ask! (Was: Re: No OpenVMS RTLs sL A Vulcan Mind-Meld (Was: Re: No OpenVMS RTLs supported for ASTs or Threads!)7 Anyone successfully using BULK upload in LISTSERV 14.5?  Re: Cluster Question Re: Cluster Question Re: Cluster Question Re: Cluster Question Re: Cluster Question! Configuration Management Commands % Re: Configuration Management Commands % Re: Configuration Management Commands % Re: Configuration Management Commands - Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMS - Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMS - Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMS - Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMS - Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMS - Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMS - Re: HP to get rid of certain office locations - Re: HP to get rid of certain office locations 6 Re: No Oracle Standard Edition planned for VMS on IA646 Re: No Oracle Standard Edition planned for VMS on IA646 Re: No Oracle Standard Edition planned for VMS on IA646 Re: No Oracle Standard Edition planned for VMS on IA64' Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked ' Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked ' Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked ' Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked ' Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked  Re: OT: Ken Lay dead, Re: Some interesting facts and figures (VMS), Re: Some interesting facts and figures (VMS), Re: Some interesting facts and figures (VMS)& Re: The possibility of vms opening up?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 10:44:09 +08003 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> Y Subject: A consistent, even playing field - That's all I ask! (Was: Re: No OpenVMS RTLs s 1 Message-ID: <e8n61s$eft$1@news-02.connect.com.au>   	 Hi Steve,    > I find the statements in the > original post baffling.   F Ludicrous aren't they. Though our definitions of "original" may differ somewhat here.  , > We put a lot of effort into making the RTLB > (LIB$, STR$, MTH$ and some more) AST-reentrant as of VMS 2.0 and! > thread-reentrant as of VMS 4.0.   L You mean you didn't tell your customers to just suck -it-and-see? You didn'tL tell them "It might work, It might not, and if it does work we may very well+ break it in the future"? How extraordinary!   K Next you'll be telling us that when sea-change functionality such as Alpha, I SMP, or 64-bit addressing came along you guys took the bull by the horns, K rolled-up your sleaves and went to work supporting your customers by fixing K what could be fixed in the RTLs and documenting what couldn't. Who the hell E approved the budget for this folly? Did you not know that the correct ! response was "Just use one CPU!".   ' > I'd hate to think that our early work $ > in this area had been thrown away.  H Steve, I was being facetious. There are about 1/2 doz. tenuously relatedL threads in COV on this, so if you're cherry-picking then it might not make aB lot of sense. (But that by no means puts you at a disadvantage :-)    > I personally expended a lot ofF > effort in finding and removing reentrancy barriers in the RTL - this > was a task we took seriously.   L PLEASE, Please! come back and find and remove the inner-mode barriers in theJ RTL. Document which are and which aren't caller's-mode safe. (Whichever isH the smallest) If it is a case that you can only ever call out to another1 /PROTECTed RTL then please come and document why.    For example:   $GETUAI    Required Access or Privileges F Use the following list to determine the privileges required to use the $GETUAI service:  H BYPASS or SYSPRV---Allows access to any record in the user authorization file (UAF). L GRPPRV---Allows access to any record in the UAF whose UIC group matches that of the requester. L No privilege---Allows access to any UAF record whose UIC matches that of the
 requester.J You need read access to the UAF to look up any information other than your own.   Required Quota   None.    REQUIRED ACCESS MODE  ! Cannot be called from Kernel Mode    Related Services   $setuai   # > There were even statements at the C > beginning of the various RTL reference manuals attesting to their  > reentrant status.   I Apparently these attestations are not worth the paper they are written on  :-(    Here's another: - C http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82FINAL/4527/4527pro_087.html#mar_106 K It is possible to call $PERSONA_CREATE in any mode. To call $PERSONA_CREATE K in kernel mode, the calling sequence is different. Only the usrpro argument H is valid (usrnam cannot be used because kernel mode access to the SYSUAFK file is not allowed), and it is necessary to set the PSB$M_NOACESS value in 
 the flags.  G BTW. I could only find Routine-Specific claims for reentrancy/threading F safety. If you have a pointer to a Global blanket warranty for a given RTL(s) please provide it here.   Regards Richard Maher    PS. Hope all is well at Intel.  H PPS. Are you completely sure about lib$*vm* being reentrant/thread safe?K I'll take your (and the manual's) word for it (and certainly don't have any I information to the contrary) but I just want to make sure that any use of K interlocked queue instructions didn't get exaggerated out to cover the rest K of the code. It's just that I was looking at the code the other day and was G wondering that when the initial call for memory is made and the and the J _zone fields in the _lib$data psect are zero, if an AST occured then won'tK that also see it as zero and think it's first as well? I just can't see any I $SETAST calls (and obviously no IPL raising) in the rest of the code. But H that code's thrashed so much in every image it's just gotta have all the bugs out by now.  8 "Steve Lionel" <steve.lionel@intel.com> wrote in message= news:1152284776.080784.168150@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... D > As a (very) former VMS RTL developer, I find the statements in theE > original post baffling.  We put a lot of effort into making the RTL B > (LIB$, STR$, MTH$ and some more) AST-reentrant as of VMS 2.0 andH > thread-reentrant as of VMS 4.0.  I'd hate to think that our early workD > in this area had been thrown away.  I personally expended a lot ofF > effort in finding and removing reentrancy barriers in the RTL - thisB > was a task we took seriously.  There were even statements at theC > beginning of the various RTL reference manuals attesting to their  > reentrant status.  >  > Steve  >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 08:56:31 +08003 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> U Subject: A Vulcan Mind-Meld (Was: Re: No OpenVMS RTLs supported for ASTs or Threads!) 1 Message-ID: <e8mvnu$694$1@news-02.connect.com.au>    Hi Ian,   6 > Richard has omitted to indicate which parts are his.  L Ian, I honestly lost track of that myself. The boudaries seemed to shift andG the lines became blurred as my fingers just began typing like they were J under the control of a higher force! (Not since Spock hugged that rock hasK such synergy been witnessed.) I just experienced this overwhelming sense of L pain, sheer pain! If you guys only new what Hoff was goung through you'd pay him a little more respect.  F But, as usual, mine was the scintillating repartee and Hoff's was that> intraspective, "Letter to the Corinthians" thing that he does.   Regards Richard Maher   " PS. Take that badge off and relax.  + "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message ; news:1152279731.208772.40960@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... C > most of the above is quoted from a posting by Hoff but it appears 6 > Richard has omitted to indicate which parts are his. >    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 23:49:46 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)@ Subject: Anyone successfully using BULK upload in LISTSERV 14.5?6 Message-ID: <00A5856D.D10FF179@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  	 VMSers --   M I've had this question in with LSOFT for a week, and I'm apparently the first E one to report this problem, which they haven't been able to sort yet. 9 Don't know if any other VMS LISTSERV users are out there.   L We just started using the WA.EXE web interface with CSWS 1.3 on VMS 7.3-2 onM ALpha DS20E, and are about to open up list management to non-technical users   using this tool.  I When we do bulk uploads (file created on client, webserver gets contents, N LISTSERV ADDS or DELETES all the names in the list), no error is detected, butN no ADD or DELETE occurs.  A .TMP file is created with the contents of the list- (in STMLF format, if it makes any different).   O Experiments with Alarm ACLs, etc, show that WA.EXE is indeed creating the list, N but doesn't appear to be reading it - it's as though it thinks the list empty.1 Maybe it's trying to rewind the file and failing?   D Is anybody else seeing this?  Or, is there anywhere this is working?   Thanks,    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:50:36 -0700 , From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com> Subject: Re: Cluster Question + Message-ID: <e8m6tc$4i9$1@news01.intel.com>   3 On 7/7/2006 10:37 AM, norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: D > If I have two Alphas clustered with a quorum disk on a common SAN,B > can I add in a VAX with 0 votes even though it cannot get at the > SAN/quorum disk?  C     My recollection (with a mixed LAVC/CI cluster, CI-hosted quorum E disk, and a whole bunch of zero-votes satellite workstations) is that B the VAX will need to mount the quorum disk to be a cluster member.C It doesn't need direct access, it can mount the disk as MSCP served C from the Alphas.  But I think it needs to see all the voting nodes, F including the quorum disk.  (Others will correct me if I'm mistaken!).   	-Ken  --  6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:41:31 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Cluster Question Q Message-ID: <OF8B0E6A74.56D0F9C8-ON852571A4.006632E7-852571A4.0066ADF6@metso.com>   G Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com> wrote on 07/07/2006 01:50:36 PM:   5 > On 7/7/2006 10:37 AM, norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: F > > If I have two Alphas clustered with a quorum disk on a common SAN,D > > can I add in a VAX with 0 votes even though it cannot get at the > > SAN/quorum disk? > E >     My recollection (with a mixed LAVC/CI cluster, CI-hosted quorum G > disk, and a whole bunch of zero-votes satellite workstations) is that D > the VAX will need to mount the quorum disk to be a cluster member.E > It doesn't need direct access, it can mount the disk as MSCP served E > from the Alphas.  But I think it needs to see all the voting nodes, H > including the quorum disk.  (Others will correct me if I'm mistaken!).  D Yes, that is sort of how I expected it.  Means that the cluster mustD be formed and the quorum disk mounted/MSCP served before the VAX can+ be booted into the cluster.  Is that right?     G If so, the VAX would need to be shut down before the second alpha, yes? I Does that also mean the VAX has the Quorum disk as DISK_QUORUM w/ 1 vote?      > 	 >    -Ken  > --8 > I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... >  > Ken Fairfield # > D1C Automation VMS System Support $ > who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield > where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:13:49 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: Cluster Question , Message-ID: <44AEB26A.B05E528E@teksavvy.com>   norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:  > D > If I have two Alphas clustered with a quorum disk on a common SAN,B > can I add in a VAX with 0 votes even though it cannot get at the > SAN/quorum disk?  G Your 0 vote machine will go through any of the alpha nodes(via MSCP) to F see the quorum disk.  If one alpha fails, it will automatically switch7 to the other alpha to access that quorum disk via MSCP.    So the answer is YES.    ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 19:53:24 +0000 (UTC)7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)  Subject: Re: Cluster Question ( Message-ID: <e8me3k$lp1$1@pcls4.std.com>   norm.raphael@metso.com writes:  C >If I have two Alphas clustered with a quorum disk on a common SAN, A >can I add in a VAX with 0 votes even though it cannot get at the  >SAN/quorum disk?   H Yes.  It will "trust" the other nodes when they report the status of the quorum disk.  G MSCP serving the quorum disk has no effect since MSCP served disks are  3 automatically disregarded by the quorum disk logic.   I You may be better off ditching the quorum disk completely and giving the   VAX 1 vote.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:58:02 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: Cluster Question , Message-ID: <44AF1123.D27DB857@teksavvy.com>   Ken Fairfield wrote:H >     Keith corrected my faulty memory in his post, that the VAX doesn'tD > need to mount the quorum disk nor configure DISK_QUORUM in SYSGEN.     OK, how does that work ?  C say Alpha-1 and Alpha-2 have 1 vote each, and the quorum disk has 1  vote. And VAX-1 has 0 votes.  7 So , expected votes would be 3, with a quorum of two.     G From the VAX, if you do a SHOW CLUSTER, will one of the alphas report 2 J votes ? Or will you see the quorum disk with its own vote in the listing ?  F In terms of giving the VAX one vote, it really depends on hwo reliableF that vax is to be, or whether it is to boot from time to time into theE cluster. 0 Votes allows the vax to join and leave the cluster at will " without jeoperdazing the alphas's.      K > > If so, the VAX would need to be shut down before the second alpha, yes?   F The VAX will hang if quorum is lost. When the alphas reboot, they willH kinkly ask the VAX to commit hara-kiri because the VAX and Alphas cannotH resynch all the locks and opened files etc.   So shutting it down beforeG the alphas allows you to cleanly shut down and close files and dismount  disks cleanly.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2006 11:41:50 -0700 $ From: "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com>* Subject: Configuration Management CommandsC Message-ID: <1152297710.235281.274500@s53g2000cws.googlegroups.com>   F I used these 5 years ago, what are the commands to input files, outputB files, add comments, etc. Is there an Internet site available that contains this information.  . I apologize if this is inappropriately stated, Christopher Lusardi    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 15:13:59 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>. Subject: Re: Configuration Management Commands0 Message-ID: <12atcg8fm91th4b@corp.supernews.com>  0 "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com> wrote in message = news:1152297710.235281.274500@s53g2000cws.googlegroups.com... G >I used these 5 years ago, what are the commands to input files, output D > files, add comments, etc. Is there an Internet site available that > contains this information. > 0 > I apologize if this is inappropriately stated, > Christopher Lusardi  >   . Not sure I understand what you're looking for. DCL commands in general?   Use HELP at the $ sign...   K DCL is english words, it's easy to figure what a command is meant for just   by its name    Syltrem    ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:40:12 -0500 (CDT)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda). Subject: Re: Configuration Management Commands2 Message-ID: <06070714401253_2024476F@antinode.org>  $ From: "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com>  H > I used these 5 years ago, what are the commands to input files, outputD > files, add comments, etc. Is there an Internet site available that > contains this information.  F    What do you mean by "input files" and "output files"?  Add comments to what?  =    Do you mean how to create or edit a text file?  HELP EDIT?   =       http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6021/6021PRO.HTML N       http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/pdf/OVMS_EDT_REF.pdf  C Or, get a copy of Vim, and use that, if you're more of a "vi" user.   0 > I apologize if this is inappropriately stated,      Apology accepted.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:57:01 -0500 6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>. Subject: Re: Configuration Management Commands@ Message-ID: <craigberry-F83477.17570107072006@free.teranews.com>  C In article <1152297710.235281.274500@s53g2000cws.googlegroups.com>, &  "Chris L" <clusardi2k@aol.com> wrote:  H > I used these 5 years ago, what are the commands to input files, outputD > files, add comments, etc. Is there an Internet site available that > contains this information. > 0 > I apologize if this is inappropriately stated, > Christopher Lusardi   C It's not inappropriate, it's just vague, but I will take a guess.   F Configuration management is the buzzword describing the collection of H activities that a software shop uses to keep track of things, generally F including, though not limited to, version control.  So what you might H have used 5 years ago and want to use again is a version control system C known as CMS (Code Management System).  If your system has it, the   command   
 $ help cms   should get you started.    --  = Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:56:15 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 6 Subject: Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMS, Message-ID: <44AEAE4E.B5CD174B@teksavvy.com>   contracer11@gmail.com wrote: > > > copy flash:config.txt 8 > > > ftp://user:password@ip_address/[directory]file.txt > > > I get % > > > writing...  (permission denied)       Z Try loggin in to the VMS systems with "user" and "password" and CREATE [DIRECTORY]file.txt  M Perhaps that user does not have permission to create files in that directory.   F Have you tried to intentionally enter the wrong password to see if the same message is being issued ?  F Do you have access to any OPCOM messages that might be issued when the6 CISCO switch tries to ftp the file to the VMS system ?   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:55:29 -0500 (CDT)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)6 Subject: Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMS2 Message-ID: <06070713552968_2024476F@antinode.org>   From: contracer11@gmail.com    > When I issue:  > copy flash:config.txt 4 > ftp://user:password@ip_address/[directory]file.txt > I get ! > writing...  (permission denied)  > E > What can I do to enable cisco switch do write this file in my vax ? ! > Need I create a proxy account ? + > issuing ucx sh services in my vax I get :  > ftp  > telnet  G    More useful than output from "ucx sh services" would be a simple FTP ? test from any other system, but no matter.  As you're supplying H "user:password@", no proxy is needed.  Which is a good thing, as I don't think that FTP proxies exist.   H    Most likely, the Cisco box is dissecting the destination URL, and canE make no sense of a bracketted directory specification.  To start, you ( might try something (bracket-free) like:  -       ftp://user:password@ip_address/file.txt   D which has the best chance of working (and leaving the file in user'sF login directory).  If that works, you could move on to something like:  7       ftp://user:password@ip_address/dir1/dir2/file.txt   E which might leave the file in the [.dir1.dir2] directory under user's  login directory.  E    Having seen how a program like Wget (or Wput) interects with a VMS A FTP server, I would not wish to bet on the success of any similar H program, especially when the details of its operation are hidden, so you% can't even see what it's doing wrong.   D    By the way, have you looked for clues in the FTP server log(s) inH user's login directory?  TCPIP$FTP_SERVER.LOG and/or UCX$FTP_SERVER.LOG, I'd assume.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 15:08:31 -0400. From: "Carl Friedberg" <frida.fried@gmail.com>6 Subject: Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMSI Message-ID: <890539d90607071208k4ac78a3dhc07f1c7a6c428d6f@mail.gmail.com>   ? With Kermit, you script the whole thing (read the famous "Using  C-Kermit" book by Frank 4 daCruz and Crhistine M. Gianone (ISBN 1-55558-164-1)  ! See pp 286-287 and chapters 17-19   
 Good luck,   Carl Friedberg  3 On 7 Jul 2006 09:39:06 -0700, contracer11@gmail.com  <contracer11@gmail.com> wrote:   ..  D > My intention is use kermit to connect in 54 Cisco switches and get > yours  > flash:config.txt file.   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 14:11:18 -0500 (CDT)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)6 Subject: Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMS2 Message-ID: <06070714111839_2024476F@antinode.org>   From: contracer11@gmail.com   0 > Address or name of remote host [175.18.13.10]?3 > Destination filename [DKA1:[TELECOM]/config.txt]? # > Writing DKA1:[TELECOM]/config.txt  > %Error writingH > ftp://user:password@175.18.13.10/DKA1:[TELECOM]/config.txt (Permission	 > denied)   D    Who specified "DKA1:[TELECOM]/config.txt"?  No reasonable programF will be able to make any sense of out that sort of mixed VMS-UNIX fileH spec.  There'd be some hope for "DKA1:[TELECOM]config.txt", and more forB (plain) "config.txt" (assuming that DKA1:[TELECOM] is user's login directory).   E    What _is_ user's login directory?  Where would you really like the H file to go?  I could go on making guesses for a long time before hitting the target.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  3    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 4    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2006 12:58:44 -0700  From: contracer11@gmail.com 6 Subject: Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMSA Message-ID: <1152302324.053047.72300@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: contracer11@gmail.com  > 2 > > Address or name of remote host [175.18.13.10]?5 > > Destination filename [DKA1:[TELECOM]/config.txt]? % > > Writing DKA1:[TELECOM]/config.txt  > > %Error writingJ > > ftp://user:password@175.18.13.10/DKA1:[TELECOM]/config.txt (Permission > > denied)  > F >    Who specified "DKA1:[TELECOM]/config.txt"?  No reasonable programH > will be able to make any sense of out that sort of mixed VMS-UNIX fileJ > spec.  There'd be some hope for "DKA1:[TELECOM]config.txt", and more forD > (plain) "config.txt" (assuming that DKA1:[TELECOM] is user's login
 > directory).  > G >    What _is_ user's login directory?  Where would you really like the J > file to go?  I could go on making guesses for a long time before hitting
 > the target.  > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 5 >    Steven M. Schweda               sms@antinode-org 6 >    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 651-699-9818 >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      Thanks to all guys !  4 I made this change in telecom directory  protection:   set prot=(w:rw) telecom.dir    and now it works fine !!!   " Writing DKA1:[TELECOM]config.txt !0 3578 bytes copied in 1.272 secs (2813 bytes/sec) tacacsdfl064#    Thank you J. F. Mezei !    ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 16:20:07 -0500 (CDT)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)6 Subject: Re: Copying file from Cisco switch to VAX/VMS2 Message-ID: <06070716200760_2024476F@antinode.org>   From: contracer11@gmail.com    > set prot=(w:rw) telecom.dir  >  > and now it works fine !!!   B    Who _owns_ telecom.dir?  If you're specifying the user name andB password of the owner, then World permission should not be needed.      SMS.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:43:33 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> 6 Subject: Re: HP to get rid of certain office locations/ Message-ID: <FPyrg.222$ty2.84@news.cpqcorp.net>    JF Mezei wrote: 4 > Is it time to develop a petition to save ZKO ?????  F While HP presently owns more real estate than it really needs, and is D consolidating staff into fewer buildings where appropriate and then H leasing or selling the extra buildings, there's no need for a petition; 5 there are no plans afoot for the ZKO site to go away.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 16:55:01 -0400) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> 6 Subject: Re: HP to get rid of certain office locations; Message-ID: <44aec97e$0$6421$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>   5 "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message  6 news:44ae42d8$0$18513$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com.... > "Ian Miller" <ijm@uk2.net> wrote in message > > news:1152264848.381288.316060@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...= >> moves and office closures have been happening for years in 8 >> DEC/Compaq/hp UK and USA. Its just business as usual. >>M > After Compaq bought DEC, didn't they sell off the old mill site in Maynard  J > while they were consolidating operations to Texas? Yep, its business as  > usual. >  > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.: > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html; > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html  >  Correction: L Hoff just told me that the Mill was sold off by DEC in 1995. (Robert Palmer)  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada." http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2006 10:41:08 -0700 + From: "hpuxrac" <johnbhurley@sbcglobal.net> ? Subject: Re: No Oracle Standard Edition planned for VMS on IA64 C Message-ID: <1152294068.742947.171500@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Malcolm Dunnett wrote:< > I've been waiting for about a year to get a copy of OracleC > Standard Edition that I can run on my rx2600 VMS box. I currently   > run it on an Alphaserver DS20. > = >    Until recently the "Certify" page on Oracle MetaLink has 1 > said it would be available in the first half of 8 > 2006. I just checked this morning and it now says it's; > "not planned for this platform". The "Enterprise Edition" < > still shows as being available, though it's now slipped to0 > August 2006, which isn't quite the first half. > = >    So with the end of Alpha in sight and no Oracle standard 8 > edition available for Itanium and no way we can afford7 > Enterprise edition it seems I no longer have a viable & > migration path for staying with VMS. > ? >    It's clear my Oracle server will have to move to a non-VMS 8 > platform. Whether I will be able to install the client8 > code on an Itanium VMS box so that my applications can: > still be ported is not entirely clear. My presumption is: > that I can install the client portions of the Enterprise7 > Edition on there without a license ( ie that only the ) > server platform needs to be licensed ).  > : >    In any case this is not a good sign. I've really been: > trying to accept the inevitable and embrace Itanium, but: > it's getting awfully tiring running into all these brick > walls.  B Interesting ... looking at the updated information for 10.2 it now4 looks like the mac os version is also "not planned".  F What other platforms are we still waiting for oracle to deliver on for 10.2?   6 The solaris x86 32 bit is still in "projected" status.  F Wondering if Captain Morgan is going to go off the deep end?  A mutinyF perhaps with all of those production systems he was supporting running on 10.1 on apple.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 15:54:34 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>? Subject: Re: No Oracle Standard Edition planned for VMS on IA64 0 Message-ID: <12atesbki3t6aeb@corp.supernews.com>  ? "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message  & news:TPRX3Erfztah@malvm9.mala.bc.ca...< > I've been waiting for about a year to get a copy of OracleC > Standard Edition that I can run on my rx2600 VMS box. I currently   > run it on an Alphaserver DS20. > < >   Until recently the "Certify" page on Oracle MetaLink has1 > said it would be available in the first half of 8 > 2006. I just checked this morning and it now says it's; > "not planned for this platform". The "Enterprise Edition" < > still shows as being available, though it's now slipped to0 > August 2006, which isn't quite the first half. > < >   So with the end of Alpha in sight and no Oracle standard8 > edition available for Itanium and no way we can afford7 > Enterprise edition it seems I no longer have a viable & > migration path for staying with VMS. > > >   It's clear my Oracle server will have to move to a non-VMS8 > platform. Whether I will be able to install the client8 > code on an Itanium VMS box so that my applications can: > still be ported is not entirely clear. My presumption is: > that I can install the client portions of the Enterprise7 > Edition on there without a license ( ie that only the ) > server platform needs to be licensed ).  > 9 >   In any case this is not a good sign. I've really been : > trying to accept the inevitable and embrace Itanium, but: > it's getting awfully tiring running into all these brick > walls. >   5 What version of Standard Edition are you running now? J I see Standard for 8.1.7 was never available.. and nothing after that ( I  was surprised to see this)& Are you still on 816 (not supported) ?F No Standard edition is supported right now on VMS as far as I can see.  E I've been waiting so long for 10gR2... and still waiting. I'm on 9206 8 10R1 (enterprise) is there for quite a long time already   Syltrem    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2006 13:51:47 -0700 1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) ? Subject: Re: No Oracle Standard Edition planned for VMS on IA64 , Message-ID: <nK5klVqeK2ao@malvm9.mala.bc.ca>  1 In article <12atesbki3t6aeb@corp.supernews.com>,  1      "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:  > 7 > What version of Standard Edition are you running now? L > I see Standard for 8.1.7 was never available.. and nothing after that ( I  > was surprised to see this)  E    Hmm. I'm on 9.2.0.4 Standard Edition on VMS 7.3-2 on Alpha. It was E certainly supported in the past and they still appear to be taking my  support money :-)   H    Before that I was on 8.1.7 Standard Edition, which was also supported at the time.  D    Given how inaccurate the support matrix is for the Alpha version 3 perhaps the "not planned" for Itanium is a mistake?    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2006 15:07:34 -0700 ( From: "joel garry" <joel-garry@home.com>? Subject: Re: No Oracle Standard Edition planned for VMS on IA64 A Message-ID: <1152310054.695221.93970@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    Malcolm Dunnett wrote:2 > In article <12atesbki3t6aeb@corp.supernews.com>,3 >      "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:  > > 9 > > What version of Standard Edition are you running now? M > > I see Standard for 8.1.7 was never available.. and nothing after that ( I  > > was surprised to see this) > G >    Hmm. I'm on 9.2.0.4 Standard Edition on VMS 7.3-2 on Alpha. It was G > certainly supported in the past and they still appear to be taking my  > support money :-)  > J >    Before that I was on 8.1.7 Standard Edition, which was also supported > at the time. > E >    Given how inaccurate the support matrix is for the Alpha version 5 > perhaps the "not planned" for Itanium is a mistake?   F Isn't it about 8 years since Compaq sent out the 10-year sunset noticeB for VMS?  (0r was that Alpha?)  Since I haven't touched VMS for 10" years, it's just nostalgia for me.   jg -- @home.com is bogus. ( "I take the view that applications come. Applications go.% Applications come again and go again.   G But - the data, the data - oh, it stays and stays and stays and is used  byF application after application after application." - Tom Kyte, having a "Dr. Seuss moment" :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:32:56 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> 0 Subject: Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked0 Message-ID: <IFyrg.221$7w2.109@news.cpqcorp.net>   JF Mezei wrote: I > As long as VMS is restricted to that IA64 thing, it stands no chance to  > grow  H Before, VMS was restricted to "that VAX thing" and later to "that Alpha D thing". With Itanium, at least VMS gets the benefit of economies of H scale from the same hardware being sold with HP-UX, Windows, Linux, and B OpenVMS. VAX ran only VMS and a little Ultrix; Alpha lost Windows @ support, ended up with few Linux users, and Tru64 is going away.  D Despite your pessimistic conclusion that it must be impossible, the D actual quarterly numbers show that VMS sales are indeed growing, by B double-digit percentages YoY; by triple-digits for VMS on Itanium.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:17:06 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>0 Subject: Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarkedG Message-ID: <OeSdnYqEg9rvdjPZnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com>   
 Andrew wrote:  > Bill Todd wrote: >> Andrew wrote: >>> icerq4a@spray.se wrote:  >>>> Andrew skrev: >>>> >>>>> JF Mezei wrote:  >>>>>> Andrew wrote:L >>>>>>> 3.0 Ghz Xeon 5160 does 3057 SPEcint2005 vs 1.6 Ghz 9MB IA-64 at 15904 >>>>>>> SPECint and 2797 SPECfp vs 2712 for Itanium. >>>>>>> M >>>>>>> It would appear that with the introduction of Woodcrest that the last 1 >>>>>>> refuge for Itanium, FP has been breached. K >>>>>> In fairness, that IA64 thing is expected to have its next generation M >>>>>> soon, so performance of the new 8086s should be compared once they get - >>>>>> that new IA64 thing out on the market.  >>>>>>K >>>>>> Also, for large systems, raw CPU performance is only one part of the L >>>>>> equation. The ability to exchange data with the rest of the system is >>>>>> equally important.  >>>>>>N >>>>>> Does IA64 still hold any advantage in terms of memory/bus interconnectsO >>>>>> and scalability ? Or has the 8086 truly overtaken IA64 on all fronts now  >>>>>> ?F >>>>> It depends, Xeon 5160 and Itanium II both use the Frontside bus,M >>>>> Itanium II supports up to 667 Mhz Frontside while Xeon 5160 supports up = >>>>> to 1333 Mhz roughly double the bandwidth of Itanium II. F >>>> As usual, one should not expect accurate information from Andrew. >>>>= >>> Although you are correct on your first point (or sort of) ' >> No, Andrew - he was correct, period.  > ; > Oh dear, Actually he was incorrect period and so are you.   I While I don't usually persist in senseless debates with morons (which is  E why Doug's post isn't worth responding to at all), in this case I'll   make one last exception.   > I > You see some of the other details about Woodcrest may have escaped your   > notice, so let me educate you. > I > Woodcrest uses a new support chipset called Blackford which is the same H > chipset which will support Clovertown Intels Quad CPU which is in factD > just 2 Woodcrest units packaged onto one module (but you knew that, > didn't) or did you given your later point.  F Of course I knew that.  One problem, of course, is the word 'will' in F your description above:  Clovertown won't be around for quite a while I yet, and the *entire* focus of your drivel up until now (to which drivel  H my responses, including the one above, have of course been specifically H directed) has been Woodcrest - by specific Intel model numbers, in fact.  F You even start your current incompetent attempt at misdirection above I with references to Woodcrest, and then immediately attempt to change the   topic to Clovertown.  Typical.   > H > Guess what, Blackford has not 1 but two FSB's one for each module. YesI > each FSB is only 64 bit but there are two of them not one. But you knew  > this didn't you.  I Indeed - but (as usual) the *number* of FSBs supported has nothing to do  B with your original drivel ("Xeon 5160 and Itanium II both use the F Frontside bus, Itanium II supports up to 667 Mhz Frontside while Xeon E 5160 supports up to 1333 Mhz roughly double the bandwidth of Itanium  H II", just in case you though you had managed to make people forget it). I   Wrong then, corrected once, correction incompetently deflected by you,  H corrected yet again, a second incompetent attempt at deflection by you,  and here we are a third time.   I I doubt that many here care whether you're an utter fool or a persistent  F knave or both, Andrew.  But it still bears pointing out for those not G paying attention:  so many of our society's problems arise when dogged  H blowhards like you prevail that when the opportunity arises to confront # one that duty shouldn't be shirked.    > B > Another detail which you may have missed is that cache coherancyH > traffic is confined within a Woodcrest module. So a dual CPU and 4 CPUH > Woodcrest system has more usable backplane bandwidth than a 2 or 4 CPU? > Itanium II system where all cache coherancy traffic uses FSB.   F Tsk, tsk Andrew:  you weren't talking about such marginal differences C (which, of course, are at least partially offset by the far larger  C caches - and consequent decrease in coherence traffic - present on  D Itanic), nor even about generated traffic at all:  you were talking G about a 2:1 difference in *bus* bandwidth (based quite specifically on  H your comparison of bus *data rates* while unfortunately overlooking bus H *widths*), and still have your trousers down around your ankles on that I point with no hope of elevating them in sight unless you can deflect the  - conversation elsewhere (valiant try, though).    >  > Ohh dear, strike 1.  >>   your second >>> point is demonstrably bogus  >> Strike two, I'm afraid. > : > Another error on your part, you arn't having a good day.  I My day's just fine, Andrew:  I *like* baiting incompetent blowhards - as  < well as considering it sort of a civic duty, as noted above.   > G > Why well you seem to have forgotten both what the thread is about and I > sadly the statements made by the poster you seem vainly to be trying to 
 > support.  H Hardly:  unlike you, I carefully *quote* the material I'm responding to G so that the relevance will be crystal-clear, rather than wave my hands  , vigorously attempting to change the subject.   > A > Regardless of how scalable Woodcrest is it is demonstrably more F > scalable than Itanium II up to 4 CPU's this is a fact which you have > failed completely to dispute.   H Well, since your comparisons in the current sub-topic were based solely G on SPECfp_rate, and since SGI's somewhat venerable Madison IIs soundly  F trounce Woodcrest in that benchmark at the 4-core level, I'd say that H statement is subject to at least some debate (we don't have SPECfp_rate E figures for single- and dual-core SGI systems, so the *linearity* of  D scalability may be in some - though I suspect not much - doubt, but ! their *ability* to scale is not).   F But if you want to ignore SGI because they use special glue to attach B two dual-socket Itanics together, and instead concentrate only on G symmetric quad-socket FSB implementations, then you really should take  E zx2 into account rather than compare the brand-new Blackford chipset  C against an HP zx1 chipset that's 4 years old now.  Though it seems  E likely that even a 533 MHz *zx1* dual-socket Montecito configuration  I could beat Woodcrest's 4-core SPECfp_rate score (even if the *linearity*  D of its scaling was lower) - a point I made earlier which you rather  conspicuously ignored.  G Since even my feeling of civic obligation has limits I'll let the rest  I of your drivel pass (it's largely just repetition anyway).  As I said, I  I don't like incompetents, Andrew - especially persistent ones.  So I hope  E that if you continue someone else will take up the burden of dealing  E with you:  it wouldn't do to make your kind feel welcome here - they  D might proliferate, and the quality of the neighborhood has declined  enough as it is.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:32:28 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 0 Subject: Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked) Message-ID: <op.tccg4enqzgicya@hyrrokkin>   3 On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 12:32:56 -0700, Keith Parris  =   % <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:    > JF Mezei wrote: I >> As long as VMS is restricted to that IA64 thing, it stands no chance =  to >> grow  > I > Before, VMS was restricted to "that VAX thing" and later to "that Alph=  a  =  H > thing". With Itanium, at least VMS gets the benefit of economies of  =  I > scale from the same hardware being sold with HP-UX, Windows, Linux, an=  d  =  F > OpenVMS. VAX ran only VMS and a little Ultrix; Alpha lost Windows  =  B > support, ended up with few Linux users, and Tru64 is going away. > H > Despite your pessimistic conclusion that it must be impossible, the  =  H > actual quarterly numbers show that VMS sales are indeed growing, by  =  D > double-digit percentages YoY; by triple-digits for VMS on Itanium.  I Those aren't the numbers with which I am familiar, of course you could b=  e G talking apples and I oranges.  Without specifying what it is you are  =   	 reporting H the statements don't mean a lot.  Tripled digits for VMS on Itanium I  =   guess I I can understand, since there was no market to start with.  Again, it woul=  d  =   beE better to give shipment numbers.  I respect you Keith, but I think  =   	 reporting I these type of numbers, while not disingenuous,  is somewhat disrespectfu=  l  =   to an  educated audience.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:38:58 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 0 Subject: Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked, Message-ID: <44AF0CAC.84796902@teksavvy.com>   Keith Parris wrote: E > Despite your pessimistic conclusion that it must be impossible, the E > actual quarterly numbers show that VMS sales are indeed growing, by D > double-digit percentages YoY; by triple-digits for VMS on Itanium.    E Sicne VMS hardware is to be artficially end-of-sales in a few months, C growth in sales would be expected. Lets way until after Alpha is no 0 longer permitted to be sold to see what happens.  F Also, I wouldn't be bragging about tripple digit growth of VMS on thatC IA64 thing. This can only mean that the numbers are so low that any 3 additional sale is a major boost to growth numbers.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:53:17 -0500 6 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.no@spam.comcast.net>0 Subject: Re: OT: Intel quad core X64 benchmarked0 Message-ID: <44AF1E1D.F9495FA9@spam.comcast.net>   Keith Parris wrote:  >  > JF Mezei wrote: K > > As long as VMS is restricted to that IA64 thing, it stands no chance to  > > grow > I > Before, VMS was restricted to "that VAX thing" and later to "that Alpha E > thing". With Itanium, at least VMS gets the benefit of economies of I > scale from the same hardware being sold with HP-UX, Windows, Linux, and 
 > OpenVMS.  E That will be true if, and only if, I64 takes off in popularity as has H been hoped for lo these many years. Sorry to report that I'm starting to% trip over my whiskers as I'm waiting.   : > VAX ran only VMS and a little Ultrix; Alpha lost WindowsB > support, ended up with few Linux users, and Tru64 is going away. > E > Despite your pessimistic conclusion that it must be impossible, the E > actual quarterly numbers show that VMS sales are indeed growing, by D > double-digit percentages YoY; by triple-digits for VMS on Itanium.   Gotta agree with Tom, Keith.    C I know - you're just reflecting the corporate sunshine that's being H blown up your skirt. Not your fault, but a bit too "Pollyanna" to really% carry much credibility outside of HP.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  & Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page! http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/   ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/   ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:36:36 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Re: OT: Ken Lay dead ) Message-ID: <op.tcchba06zgicya@hyrrokkin>   G On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:30:47 -0700, AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote:    > Keith Parris wrote: I >> Ken Lay was awaiting sentencing, so he was not yet incarcerated. Auto=  psy ; >> was performed; heart attack was given as cause of death.  >>) >> Let's get back to discussing VMS here.  >  > . > Two more advantages of the am/pm system: :-) > I > 1.) Times like 5:00 can be ambiguous. If the person who wrote it meant=   I > 5 pm, then someone who interprets it as 24-hour time will think it's 5=   F > am, not 5 pm! But if you are forced to specify am or pm (imagine all2 > this in a Web form), then there is no ambiguity. > I > 2.) Clock towers that chime: So you ring the bell zero times at 00:00?=   F > Not very helpful. That explains why twelve is used for zero. RingingG > the bell 23 times at 23:00 is a bit tedious to count. Also, a 24-hour : > face would be rather difficult to read on a clock tower.I It is a form of data compression if the clock rings 12 times and the sun=   is  not out it is 24:00:-) > 5 > See the Wikipedia article "12-hour clock" for more.  > I > Still, I greatly prefer the 24-hour system for system time on computer=  s. >    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:18:55 GMT 7 From: John Malmberg <malmberg@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec> 5 Subject: Re: Some interesting facts and figures (VMS) 0 Message-ID: <zsyrg.220$zw2.184@news.cpqcorp.net>   Chuck Aaron wrote:- > http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/uk/vms.do   G As they are listing VMS and OpenVMS as two separate Operating Systems,  @ the results for both are suspect, because it is not possible to + determine how many listings reference both.   F Also that many job postings I have seen spell OpenVMS as simply "VAX" ) even when they only involve ALPHA or I64.   E About the only thing really useful from that site is that it appears  B employers looking for "OpenVMS" people are willing to pay more on 0 average than employers looking for "VMS" people.   -John ! malmberg@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec  Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:51:16 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> 5 Subject: Re: Some interesting facts and figures (VMS) 0 Message-ID: <UWyrg.224$nv2.189@news.cpqcorp.net>   Chuck Aaron wrote:- > http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/uk/vms.do   E It appears the site has slightly different figures if you substitute  4 "openvms" or  "vax" for the "vms" string in the URL.  H Interesting that salary amounts for VMS and OpenVMS jobs there are each $ up over 6% compared with a year ago.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2006 16:20:18 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 5 Subject: Re: Some interesting facts and figures (VMS) 3 Message-ID: <ZlgfXPgBVncw@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <zsyrg.220$zw2.184@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Malmberg <malmberg@dskwld.zko.hp.compaq.dec> writes:  G > About the only thing really useful from that site is that it appears  D > employers looking for "OpenVMS" people are willing to pay more on 2 > average than employers looking for "VMS" people.   They pay by the letter.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:50:44 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: Re: The possibility of vms opening up? , Message-ID: <44AEAD03.B211FD75@teksavvy.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:L >    IIRC the pilot "applied" full thrust (moved the levers) before startingJ >    the climb, as any pilot would.  The control system did not respond inJ >    a timely manner to the request for thrust.  The control system shouldF >    have ensured thrust was provided when the control yoke was pulledF >    back, not delayed the elevator until thrust felt like responding.    E The flight control "logic" prevents stalling based on angle of attack 
 and AIRSPEED.   @ You can move the thurst levers all you want, but as long as yourB airspeed hasn't increased sufficiently, it won't let you stall the aircraft by raising the nose.   F Jet engines are not like those cars adertrised on TV that go from 0 toA 60 in 0.237 seconds. They take time to spool up when more fuel is F injected and once they have spooled up and have begun to generate moreA thurst, it takes time to actually accelerate the aircraft itself.   G Ever seen an aircraft start to take off ? Pilot applies full thrust and H it takes a fair amount of time before the aircraft is actually moving at2 a decent pace. It is no different once in the air.  G And as you say, every pilot should know this, and in the Habsheim case, G the pilot should have applied thurst before the need to start climbing. F He was too busy impressing people below him with his very slow and low airshow accrobatic.   > The aircraft computers did not know that the pilot intended toA re-accerelate and climb. They could not have foreseen the need to D increase thurst before the pilot decided he wanted to lift the nose.    H Note that a similar incident happened in Canada on a flying skidoos (CRJF 200) at Fredericton. And this isn't FBW at all. Pilot decided to abortH landing at last minute, but was already going too slow to climb back up.B He SHOULD have touched down, re-accelerated and take off again. HeF instead increased thurst and raised the nose, but the aircraft stalledF and fell in the snow and reverted to its skidoos DNA and rushed into a@ forest sliding on the snow. (CRJs were made by Bombardier).  Jet@ aircraft don't have the same acceleration as turboprops or cars.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2006.376 ************************